Would there be interest!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Would there be interest!!


XmmAUTO
01-19-2011, 01:08
After reading many of the posts on this forum and others, and seeing the amount of enthusiasm for pushing the 10mm caliber itself to the limits in a quest for more energy, would the 10mm enthusiast's be interested in new 10mm brass with a small pistol primer pocket and reinforced web. I'm thinking that such a product would benefit the 10mm reloading enthusiast by increasing the case's ability to withstand higher pressures than the 37,500 SAMMI max. I know there are some here working on some very interesting projects with the .40S&W case and pushing it to the max at the expense of case capacity. My idea stems around a 10mm case of the same external dimensions but with small pistol primer pocket and new spec for the case web. The spec on the case web would decrease the the case capacity slightly compared to the original case. The max safe working pressure for the case would be carefully worked up and tested but I'm hoping to have a case that could possibly withstand between 40,000 and 43,000 PSI. I have already received a reply from Starline brass after asking if such a case could be made and what quantity would have to be ordered and at what price. Their min quantity is 100,000 cases at a price of $151.70 per 1000 cases. For an additional cost of $750.00 they will use any headstamp that is specified. thats a total cost of just under $16,000.

Opinions and comments are appreciated
Im looking at possibly fronting the cost myself and wonder if there is enough interest in the 10mm reloading community for such a product.

Xmm

2240
01-19-2011, 06:04
I am not too educated on this subject matter or have experimented with higher than factory 10mm load pressures, but what kind of firearms will you be able to fire these rounds out of? And what kind of velocity do you have in mind? If you have not gone down this road, how about cutting down and reaming some 6.8 SPC cases first? They're already operating in the 50k pressure range? Just a thought but it might save you some money.

MakeMineA10mm
01-19-2011, 07:57
I agree with 2240. Looking at the entire system of chamber, barrel, recoiling-mass (assuming you want to use these in an auto-loader), case (construction-style, as you suggest), powder, bullet, magazines (again assuming an auto-loader), and internal and external ballistics, I have some strong questions.

First off, my guess is that, to be safe and not throw back to the days of reloading in the 50s and 60s (where when the brass was flowing - that was the max load) these would almost have to be reserved for the use of long-slides, preferrably with a solid top (to increase the recoiling mass even more).

May also be an issue where you'd want a slower rifling twist, if feasible, because that lowers pressures as well. In addition, a reasonably tight chamber would help. LWD already knows how to spec that... Perhaps LWD could make a special run of tight-chambered, slow-twist, long-barrels to go with the solid long-slides? We need to run the Greenhill formula on a 230gr WFN and the 200gr XTP and see what the slowest twist we could get away with would be... Then, I'd make the twist faster by about a half-inch, just to make sure we'd get 100% stabilization.

Next, we'd have to upgrade the springs. No less than 22-lb recoil springs I'm estimating... With the long-slide/heavier recoiling mass described above, we'd probably get away with not changing magazine or striker springs.

This isn't far different than the set-up many guys already have here, so it is "do-able" although we'd have to get LWD to agree to the specially enhanced slides and barrels...


Of course, the internal ballistics is where things start to get dicey. 10mm Auto with a max avg. pressure of 37,500psi already has a fluctuation range of up to 43,000psi. (Some of the original Norma ammo hit 44,000psi in testing...) The proof load is 56,000psi. So, basically, we can already load to these levels with current brass. The question becomes one of safety and wear-and-tear on the system.

Certainly, a small-primer pocket and heavier web may last longer in terms of wear-and-tear on the brass, IF we use a chamber that matches up fairly well with our sizer die so we don't go through too broad a range of swelling and sizing in the firing-reloading cycles. Even then, high-pressure loads tend to stretch the case more, so we may still have the failure at the stretch ring anyway, even with heavier brass. (I'm guessing your modified case head includes thicker walls at the bottom of the side-wall of the case?) As an example I'd point out Norma Mags and Weatherby Mag cases which have been reloaded a lot.

I'd also want to replace my springs quite often in the long-slide which shoots these. Not to mention careful, regular inspection. Also, as a Glock Armorer, I can confirm for you that the weakest part of the Glock's design is the extractor. Usually I see this from people dropping a round in the chamber and slamming the slide home on it, forcing the ejector (which is small and has very restricted geometry) to snap around the case rim. This usually leads to breakage. This COULD (nobody will know until it's tried) also be an issue with high-pressure loads, as the feed ramp (which will be addressed by the aftermarket barrel) and the extractor cut are the two weakest points in the chamber.

I guess where I'm going with this is that I think with the gun set up correctly, you could squeeze a little more performance out, but at the expense of case life and possibly gun-life (or parts there-of) and with the expense of a custom slide and barrel.

And, so the question becomes what do you get for all that? If we crank up the max. avg. working pressure from 37,500 to 42,000psi, how much more velocity will we get? Somebody have QuickLoad who could run these numbers and get estimates for this??

Also, one of the things about the 10mm as it stands is that it is a good compromise between power, size, and recoil. If we start magnumizing it, it will be changing that triad of features by adding more power and more recoil. Depends on what you use the 10mm for, but some won't like this. (Hunters, who generally fire one shot, it's no big deal, but to a combat shooter this would be objectionable.

hypnagogue
01-19-2011, 08:12
The max safe working pressure for the case would be carefully worked up and tested but I'm hoping to have a case that could possibly withstand between 40,000 and 43,000 PSI.

40kpsi - 43kpsi is a no-brainer with small primers -- .357 SIG is already rated at that. A web similar to 40 or 357 SIG is all you would need.

I don't see the value of this being "run hotter" as much as "get longer case life", as well as "reload 40 without changing your primer setup". Either way, I'm in for 1000. Now you just need 98 more.

hypnagogue
01-19-2011, 08:38
Looking at the entire system of chamber, barrel, recoiling-mass (assuming you want to use these in an auto-loader), case (construction-style, as you suggest), powder, bullet, magazines (again assuming an auto-loader), and internal and external ballistics, I have some strong questions.

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I will speak for myself:

I DO NOT WANT A NEW CARTRIDGE. I want reliable, long-life cases for 10mm. Period.

MakeMineA10mm
01-19-2011, 11:20
Whoa whoa whoa. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I will speak for myself:

I DO NOT WANT A NEW CARTRIDGE. I want reliable, long-life cases for 10mm. Period.

OK, I don't have a problem with that. I also like your point that if you're already set up for small primers, you wouldn't have to change-out to load 10s... I'm fine with all of that and like it. (Although, I'm still concerned if the brass wears out first from being lost or repeated expansion and reduction from the firing/reloading process, rather than the loads we're shooting. It's an interesting question. I think most pistol calibers it's the former, but with the 10mm being a high-pressure auto-loader round, it may be closer to the latter -- probably somewhere on the border of the two issues.)

BUT, my response was geared toward the OP's obvious desire to squeeze everything we can from the 10mm, as highlighted below:

After reading many of the posts on this forum and others, and seeing the amount of enthusiasm for pushing the 10mm caliber itself to the limits in a quest for more energy, would the 10mm enthusiast's be interested in new 10mm brass with a small pistol primer pocket and reinforced web. I'm thinking that such a product would benefit the 10mm reloading enthusiast by increasing the case's ability to withstand higher pressures than the 37,500 SAMMI max. I know there are some here working on some very interesting projects with the .40S&W case and pushing it to the max at the expense of case capacity. My idea stems around a 10mm case of the same external dimensions but with small pistol primer pocket and new spec for the case web. The spec on the case web would decrease the the case capacity slightly compared to the original case. The max safe working pressure for the case would be carefully worked up and tested but I'm hoping to have a case that could possibly withstand between 40,000 and 43,000 PSI. I have already received a reply from Starline brass after asking if such a case could be made and what quantity would have to be ordered and at what price. Their min quantity is 100,000 cases at a price of $151.70 per 1000 cases. For an additional cost of $750.00 they will use any headstamp that is specified. thats a total cost of just under $16,000.

Opinions and comments are appreciated
Im looking at possibly fronting the cost myself and wonder if there is enough interest in the 10mm reloading community for such a product.

Xmm

I still think even that is a worth-while project, but I think before diving in, we should keep our eyes wide open, both for the limitations and the advancements.

I'd like to see some QuickLoad estimates for pressures, etc. (QL isn't a replacement for testing in a pressure gun -- It uses formulae to ESTIMATE results.) We'd need the new internal water capacity of the smaller-capacity cases to compare with the slightly larger capacity "normal" cases.

If QL estimates can be plotted out and shown, I may or may not be interested. Depends on the cost vs. the benefit.

Kegs
01-19-2011, 16:53
Nevermind this one.

Kegs
01-19-2011, 17:08
This usually leads to breakage. This COULD (nobody will know until it's tried) also be an issue with high-pressure loads, as the feed ramp (which will be addressed by the aftermarket barrel) and the extractor cut are the two weakest points in the chamber.

The extractor will indeed go first under high pressure - assuming the barrel is fully supported about the case mid-web and beyond. It's like a bullet when it goes too. Don't stand on the right side.

(e.g. it's been tried with loads many times higher than you know).


And, so the question becomes what do you get for all that? If we crank up the max. avg. working pressure from 37,500 to 42,000psi, how much more velocity will we get? Somebody have QuickLoad who could run these numbers and get estimates for this??Now that is what I would like to know. 200gr. @ 2400 fps anybody?

That is going to need a stout bullet.

Also, one of the things about the 10mm as it stands is that it is a good compromise between power, size, and recoil. If we start magnumizing it, it will be changing that triad of features by adding more power and more recoil. Depends on what you use the 10mm for, but some won't like this. (Hunters, who generally fire one shot, it's no big deal, but to a combat shooter this would be objectionable.At some point in the game, the project becomes impractical. A 200gr. bullet fired under pressure >37kpsi (estimated), the G29 becomes quite peppy in the recoil dept. Much over that, and it's going to start challenging a shooter to be able to keep the pistol in his hand while it fires.

The G20 is of course different, a longslide even more different, and beyond that it's T/C contender or Encore time...

I like the idea of a small primer pocketed 10mm, but I can't commit to purchasing any at this time (Though the price seems reasonable).

I will also say it's not the first time someone has mentioned ordering these in a bulk purchase - also someone else had mentioned small primer pocketed 10mm cases were already manufactured for specialty purposes and they are out there - somewhere. I'd have to go back and find the post.

Right now I'm in the process of loading .40 s&w long (1.160") to high velocities and pressures will probably be in excess of SAAMI specs for 10mm, but it's gonna be a slow workup, so I'm not sure where I'll need to stop until I'm at the point that it is clear enough is enough.

I don't nearly need 1,000 cases for this short and sweet project.

Maine1
01-19-2011, 21:32
I'd be interested in this, from the perspective hypnagogue mentioned.

let me know if this actually happens. I like my 10mm, and brass that lasts for that price is a good investment.

XmmAUTO
01-20-2011, 02:02
I certainly appreciate the comments of MakeMineA10mm and 2240.
As far as cutting down 6.8 cases, it's worth a try but i'm also looking at a bit of a convenience factor when it comes to spending time cutting cases or just buying brass.

In response to MakeMineA10mm, there will be a point when a load for a cartridge will exceed the limitations of a particular platform whether it is a autoloading handgun, revolver etc. I realize that the 10mm can be pushed a bit farther with a S&W610 than a Glock 20. We could use physics to calculate a theoretical max load for a particular autoloader based on slide mass and recoil spring weight given we calculate a constant for a given platform with a factory recoil spring and based on a 200gr bullet at 1200 fps. I will be looking into this as a side project.

I think that such a case as I proposed in my first post would allow a handloader to experiment beyond the limitations of the 10mm case as it is now. There are some who are looking at pushing the 200gr bullet to 1500-1600fps range using a .40s&w case. We could ask "What would be the purpose of such an endeavor"

I'm looking at this a a possibility to offer us 10mm handloader's a case that be loaded from light to nuclear with extended brass life on one end more of a margin of safety on the other. *Note that margin of safety is very subjective to the load developed and the limitations of the case itself and the platform used.

The upfront investment is obviously quite large but i feel that the price is reasonable compared to regular starline 10mm at $136.00/1000 (starline website) and Winchester 10mm at $262.00/1000 (midway usa website)

I personally would like 10,000 of these cases as 10mm is all I shoot and carry in a pistol. That would leave me with 90,000 case up for sale which is why i'm gauging interest.

Thanks for all the input and definitely keep the comments coming.

Xmm

Almost forgot to add that I'm going to design the case in CAD after I cut and take some measurements from a .40S&W, .357Sig, and the 6.8SPC. This should get us a close estimate of H20 capacity.

Kegs
01-20-2011, 13:16
I think that such a case as I proposed in my first post would allow a handloader to experiment beyond the limitations of the 10mm case as it is now. There are some who are looking at pushing the 200gr bullet to 1500-1600fps range using a .40s&w case. We could ask "What would be the purpose of such an endeavor"

Why does a project need have a purpose beyond personal curiosity?

From the practical perspective, it may be possible to load half the powder +/- in a .40 s&w case to propel a 200 gr. xtp to the same velocity as a 10mm will reach at it's SAAMI max.

I think there is only one, not some and that one is me. Feel free to point me out, I won't be offended. :supergrin: :wavey:

I have yet to test this out - but will be soon - with about 90 brass +/- If it works, I may just keep the .40 s&w barrel in there and load w/w cases to my own specs at around 1200 f/s for the 200gr. xtp (using an aftermarket G29 length barrel).

I would actually prefer a GDHP, but 200gr. is not offered - or if it is, I sure can't find one.

Right now, I've got my gun loaded with 10mm cases 1.260" 200 gr. xtps running at 1220-1230 fps average out of an aftermarket barrel just a little shy of 4.5".

I have loaded the first batch of .40 s&w, but have yet to chrono any of them. I probably won't get a chance to do this until next week due to weather. Donning snowshoes out to my range will be a necessity. :supergrin:

hypnagogue
01-20-2011, 19:17
As far as cutting down 6.8 cases, it's worth a try but i'm also looking at a bit of a convenience factor

Cutting down a few 6.8 SPC cases to test some loads would be a pretty quick and convenient way to get a data point. I think this is a project we could all contribute to. Besides, who doesn't need an excuse for a new case trimmer?

Also... 10mm SPC (small primer case) would make a nice headstamp. heh.

XmmAUTO
01-21-2011, 01:35
I do need a case trimmer as I want to start reloading for both .223 and .270WIN. I'll most likely get one around the first of February and I'll pick up 100 cases of 6.8SPC and start cutting them down. I also need a chrony. 10mm SPC would make a good headstamp. I was thinking 10x25 before you mentioned 10mm SPC. If the case makes it to production we can have a headstamp brainstorm to see ideas and then vote for the favorite.

Kegs, there was another person and I forget the name, but he was posting on another forum in regards to long loading the 40S&W with a double compressed charge of 14.5 grains of 800X under a 200gr bullet. His reasoning was exactly the same as yours in that the .40S&W case could handle the pressure better then the 10mm due to the small primer pocket. He never gave any specific velocity or energy level nor did he mention the gun used.

As for the comment I made "We could ask "What would be the purpose of such an endeavor"" It was made in reference to those who might make such a statement. Personal curiosity and experimentation is to me what makes handloading a fun hobby. It gives us the ability to use the the wide array of components to create something new or improve upon whats already available.

Xmm

2240
01-21-2011, 03:25
I can see it now. A 1911 with "XMM AUTO" stamped on the barrel hood. But now the case has to be a hair longer so it wouldn't chamber in a regular 10mm Auto. I'd say go for 1500 FPS with a 200gr bullet, that's right at 1000 FT LB's of KE energy :).

Kegs
01-21-2011, 13:31
Kegs, there was another person and I forget the name, but he was posting on another forum in regards to long loading the 40S&W with a double compressed charge of 14.5 grains of 800X under a 200gr bullet*.

I know who he is. That man knows what he is doing. As such, it's proof testing experimenting. He is a graduate engineer. It's not for amateurs.

*NOTE TO FOOLS WHO MIGHT CONSIDER ATTEMPTING THIS:

JUST DON'T!


His reasoning was exactly the same as yours in that the .40S&W case could handle the pressure better then the 10mm due to the small primer pocket. He never gave any specific velocity or energy level nor did he mention the gun used.It was a Glock 22. He used a modified stock barrel to do what he did - The modification was that the feed ramp and chamber of the barrel were heli-arched and then reamed for (nearly) full case support.

He also used a recoil system that had 3 springs which gave a total recoil spring rate of around 48#. His comments were that the recoil was horrendous (as in painful). I think it is comparable to the .460 Rowland, only with a lighter gun and no muzzle brake on it. :wow:

COAL was around 1.17" (which barely gives enough room for a proper distance from the lands considering ogive of the XTP).

Based on my notes on 800x and 200gr. XTP workups, I believe his load would have produced velocity somewhere in the neighborhood of >1850 fps.

I do not believe that bullet would hold together if soft tissue is hit at terminal velocity - The bullet needs redesigned at that level of power.

Based on the one that I put through my chrono at around 1270 fps, I'm not sure it will hold up much beyond 1300 fps - and definitely not against anything as dense as bone. Even the lightweight plastic split the bullet in 1/3 - Oh well only cost $50 to repair.

Xmm

"xmm auto" would be an awesome headstamp for one of these cartridges.

That would be perfect.

Burien
01-21-2011, 16:30
Federal SP primers in the non toxic loads of 10mm "lead free"

- I just got word from federal, they do not sell the brass for reloading :(