Sidesaddle vs butt-stock mount [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Willard
01-27-2011, 11:47
Hi all,

I have a Rem 870, with synthetic youth stock set. In the past, I've used a butt-cuff to keep slugs available, but it isn't stable. I am considering a mounted (screwed-on) shell carrier on the butt-stock. Would you guys discuss this type of carrier compared to a side-saddle? If you prefer one to the other, could you share your thought-process on that decision?

Thanks!

WayaX
01-27-2011, 12:01
The side-saddle wins, hands down. The butt-cuff is unstable, requires extra weapons manipulation to get to the rounds, makes firing from your weak side very unpleasant, and can interfere with sling attachments. The only upside is it costs somewhere around $10, whereas a good side-saddle is $50-70. The side-saddle also requires a little more modification to the gun to get on, but it usually isn't hard.

The biggest advantage is that the side-saddle puts reloads much closer to the tube and breach. You can do reloads and slug change-overs much faster this way. I can't even begin to imagine the difficulty of doing them from a butt-cuff.

aippi
01-27-2011, 13:19
Wayax answered pefect, can't add anything to those points. However, if you are considering screwing a shell holder into a synthetic stock you think about the fact that those srews go through a thin wall and will lossen over time and such a mounting is not strong. If this is not a heavy use weapon that system could serve OK. If this weapon is going to see some heavy use or you are in this for the long term, avoid this type of mounting and go with a quality rever mounted shell holder.

Willard
01-27-2011, 14:12
Thanks for the replies! Yes, I realized that the screws would go through thin plastic, but I planned to use a metal reinforcing plate on the inside, with machine screws and lock nuts.

Wayax's explanation was exactly what I was looking for, and with JD's endorsement, that's all I need to know.

BTW - JD, we discussed the shorter LOP youth stock in the past. Wow, what a difference it makes! Even though I have long arms, it is a tremendous improvement!

Thanks again!

USMC06
01-27-2011, 14:41
I completely agree with the responses above. Side-saddle. No questions. In competitions, with the shells placed on the side-saddle from the bottom, it is easy to just flip the shotgun on the side or upside down while the buttstock is on your shoulder and just almost "drop them in".

MacG22
01-27-2011, 15:12
A suggestion for you...

Set it up for both, based upon how you want to use it.

Go with a Velcro system. Really stable and I've been impressed. You can put velcro on both the sidesaddle and the buttstock and either switch between them or load both. Side saddle goes empty, and you can move up the whole piece from the buttstock.

I've never had any drop out while shooting, either, and no locktite is required.

https://www7.corecommerce.com/~3gungear/images/products/495.jpg



LINK: http://3gungear.corecommerce.com/7-Shell-Side-Saddle-p24.html

Willard
01-27-2011, 16:00
Actually, I have some "strips" that look alot like those velcro-sidesaddles. I had even considered using velcro to mount them. ...Hmmm...

... Unless anyone can explain that this might be a "Bad Idea"?

MacG22
01-27-2011, 16:19
Actually, I have some "strips" that look alot like those velcro-sidesaddles. I had even considered using velcro to mount them. ...Hmmm...

... Unless anyone can explain that this might be a "Bad Idea"?

At a recent 3 gun competition I saw this setup and asked some questions (I was watching, not shooting). Spoke with a few guys who ran this system. They LOVED it. That's why I started playing around with it. I've found it to be the best of all worlds, so far. In fact, I've had rounds drop out of side saddle carriers before, and shot enough that the saddle came loose and required locktite to trust it would stay in.

So far, nothing like that at all with this setup.

smoke
01-28-2011, 13:49
I've used Sidesaddles, Arm Strips, Chest Holders, and Buttstock holders. Each has it's purpose. I would recommend the type of buttstock holder made by Spectergear, if you go that route. They make a strip and a strip in a pouch version. The cheap elastic ones suck.

The 870 in my truck has a +2 extended tube, 6 shot Sidesaddle and a Mod'd Spectergear buttstock pouch with 11 rounds in it. I don't have a round chambered, so that's 6 + 6 + 11 rounds in/on the gun, so I can grab and go.

m24shooter
01-30-2011, 10:45
I would definitely go with a sidesaddle over a stock mount. Particularly a hard mount. Stock mounted shell carriers can make shooting from the support side difficult at best.
At a recent 3 gun competition I saw this setup and asked some questions (I was watching, not shooting). Spoke with a few guys who ran this system. They LOVED it. That's why I started playing around with it. I've found it to be the best of all worlds, so far.
They are quite popular. In addition, I believe that the 3GG is supplied with the 870 MCS kits to the .mil, and I know they are included with the breaching 590 kits to the .mil.
In fact, I've had rounds drop out of side saddle carriers before, and shot enough that the saddle came loose and required locktite to trust it would stay in.
I've noticed that too. The 3GG is very sturdy and tight. I've been running a Vang DSAC which kind of combines the more traditional saddle carrier and the Velcro type. The elastic is a little softer, but I haven't had any issues with shells falling out either.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/OSOE%20Bungee%20slings/100_2624.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsacplate.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsac.jpg

MacG22
01-30-2011, 11:53
I would definitely go with a sidesaddle over a stock mount. Particularly a hard mount. Stock mounted shell carriers can make shooting from the support side difficult at best.

They are quite popular. In addition, I believe that the 3GG is supplied with the 870 MCS kits to the .mil, and I know they are included with the breaching 590 kits to the .mil.

I've noticed that too. The 3GG is very sturdy and tight. I've been running a Vang DSAC which kind of combines the more traditional saddle carrier and the Velcro type. The elastic is a little softer, but I haven't had any issues with shells falling out either.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/OSOE%20Bungee%20slings/100_2624.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsacplate.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsac.jpg


Thanks for the pics. I've been researching these systems so I can run one on my benellis. I used one on a mossberg and, as reported above, had only good experiences.

As far as why the shells don't fall out as much (pretty much heard the same things from everyone I've talked to who's run one) it's a bit of a physics thing. Because there is tension with the velcro, but the material gives a little and that keeps the vibration from transferring to the rounds, which is one of the factors that shakes them out. So the more rigid the system, the better chance for shells to drop. The other thing I like is that, if the velcro does move a little, all you do is "tap" it back. that easy.

I also like that I can keep 10 strips of shells if I want (just picked a number) and run them in a bag or anywhere and just rip one off and put another on. So I can keep a strip of slugs, a strip of buck, a strip of mixed shells, and a strip of non-lethal (we occasionally use them for wildlife we don't want to kill but get too close to garbage cans, etc).

It's a fast system.

m24shooter
01-30-2011, 16:14
Agreed. That's why I went with a Micro for something to throw on when needed without having to dig around for extra ammo in the vehicle. Also allows me to slap one of the carriers from the rig to the shotgun so I can just keep pulling from the Micro. The DSAC panels fit on the Micro as well.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/osoe%20micro/100_2664.jpg

denn1911
01-30-2011, 18:07
I'm a fan of the side saddle also. Although I wonder about the elastic shotshell carrier stretching out too soon, I am intrigued with the velcro side saddle. I may try one.

m24shooter
01-30-2011, 19:53
If the elastic were to stretch out, for $20 or even less you get a new one.
Both of these can use the 3GG card, the Vang card, or an Esstac card. I believe the Vang one is the most expensive, which is right at $20.
So if one of them does quit on you (and I don't think I've ever heard of one that did) it is a fairly easy and inexpensive fix.

MacG22
01-30-2011, 19:57
Agreed. That's why I went with a Micro for something to throw on when needed without having to dig around for extra ammo in the vehicle. Also allows me to slap one of the carriers from the rig to the shotgun so I can just keep pulling from the Micro. The DSAC panels fit on the Micro as well.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/osoe%20micro/100_2664.jpg

Would you mind telling me where you got the rig and velcor setup? Which brand did you use? Where did you buy? And how did you set up the rig...did you have to buy any other gear to make it work?

Also, another great thing about the velcro setup is that some autoloading shotguns have an issue with being over tightened when you use a side saddle. It only slightly changes the geometry of the feed system, but at times that can lead to failure. I know Benelli M1 and M2 can have this issue, and I've read reports of the Rem 1100s. The velcro does away with that.

m24shooter
01-30-2011, 20:21
Would you mind telling me where you got the rig and velcor setup? Which brand did you use? Where did you buy?
It is a 12 Gauge Micro Rig from John Willis at Original SOE Gear.
You can order from OSOE directly. It is a semi-custom type operation. They make stuff in batches, but sometimes have stock on hand.
http://www.originalsoegear.com/12gamicro.html
There are some online retailers that sell OSOE gear too, Tactical Response is one place.
Here is a link to a review I did of the rig at Wevo.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2795-Original-SOE-Gear-12-Gauge-Micro-Rig
And how did you set up the rig...did you have to buy any other gear to make it work?
I'm running the rig in the unmodified state. The rig is essentially the base/document pouch, the two shotgun reload pouches with two cards each, and the utility pouch. They are sewn on, but there is a MOLLE/PALs version that you can customize. The rig carries 24 rounds as is, and I'm using the utility pouch as a BOK carrier with a few small extra items/batteries on board.
Also, another great thing about the velcro setup is that some autoloading shotguns have an issue with being over tightened when you use a side saddle. It only slightly changes the geometry of the feed system, but at times that can lead to failure. I know Benelli M1 and M2 can have this issue, and I've read reports of the Rem 1100s. The velcro does away with that.
Very true. The Vang DSAC uses a plastic insert to prevent overtightening to avoid the same issue.

keninnavarre
01-30-2011, 21:15
tagged

Victoriagotagun
01-30-2011, 21:37
Another 3GG fan here....they work great and haven't had any problems.

MacG22
01-30-2011, 23:01
Very true. The Vang DSAC uses a plastic insert to prevent overtightening to avoid the same issue.

Thanks for the info and the links to the review. Excellent quality information--part of what makes the forum so good. Even the guys I talked with at the 3G comp were still figuring out how to get everything setup just right, but most of them were planning on moving to a velcro system.

A few questions left for me:

1. The Vangcomp DSAC... I looked it up and I like the idea. But it didn't specify what gun it fits? Is it a universal part or is it only for one model? With the screw mounts I wouldn't imagine it's universal.

2. So if I wanted to run a similar rig for HD or 3G (which I've been toying with), I would buy either the 3GG or the Vangcomp DSCAC, and then pair it with that micro shell rig you linked to. Then all I would need is shells?

For HD I'd probably put a backer on both the side saddle and the stock. So that I have the ability to load both, either, and for my pump Benelli I would load it on the stock.

That would make it a total of 3 backers (two auto, back on the pump), the micro rig, and then shells. Seems simple and useful, which for me is the standard for an HD setup.

I doubt that the rig would be necessary for basic HD in a suburban environment, but for me it's useful. I spend a meaningful amount of time on a property and have had to chase off both bears and coyotes, as well as nightstand duty. Normally I have my belt bag with different loads in it, and it's a headache. Also, if I get into 3 Gun I would want the redundancy in habit and training.

Ride5C2
01-31-2011, 08:27
I would definitely go with a sidesaddle over a stock mount. Particularly a hard mount. Stock mounted shell carriers can make shooting from the support side difficult at best.

They are quite popular. In addition, I believe that the 3GG is supplied with the 870 MCS kits to the .mil, and I know they are included with the breaching 590 kits to the .mil.

I've noticed that too. The 3GG is very sturdy and tight. I've been running a Vang DSAC which kind of combines the more traditional saddle carrier and the Velcro type. The elastic is a little softer, but I haven't had any issues with shells falling out either.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/OSOE%20Bungee%20slings/100_2624.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsacplate.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/590A1%20SBS/dsac.jpg

M24,
I'm thinking of changing out my Mesa 6 saddle on my SPX to a velcro version. Did you ever try one of these on the SPX? 3GG & Vang don't seem to have mossberg versions that I can tell. Thanks.

m24shooter
01-31-2011, 08:44
Thanks for the info and the links to the review. Excellent quality information--part of what makes the forum so good. Even the guys I talked with at the 3G comp were still figuring out how to get everything setup just right, but most of them were planning on moving to a velcro system.
Glad it helped.
A few questions left for me:

1. The Vangcomp DSAC... I looked it up and I like the idea. But it didn't specify what gun it fits? Is it a universal part or is it only for one model? With the screw mounts I wouldn't imagine it's universal.
There is a model for the Remington and one for the Mossberg.
2. So if I wanted to run a similar rig for HD or 3G (which I've been toying with), I would buy either the 3GG or the Vangcomp DSCAC, and then pair it with that micro shell rig you linked to. Then all I would need is shells?
Pretty much.
For HD I'd probably put a backer on both the side saddle and the stock. So that I have the ability to load both, either, and for my pump Benelli I would load it on the stock.

That would make it a total of 3 backers (two auto, back on the pump), the micro rig, and then shells. Seems simple and useful, which for me is the standard for an HD setup.

I doubt that the rig would be necessary for basic HD in a suburban environment, but for me it's useful. I spend a meaningful amount of time on a property and have had to chase off both bears and coyotes, as well as nightstand duty. Normally I have my belt bag with different loads in it, and it's a headache. Also, if I get into 3 Gun I would want the redundancy in habit and training.
The Micro makes a nice truck gun companion for exactly the role you're talking about. I've used it for much the same purpose a couple of times.

m24shooter
01-31-2011, 08:45
M24,
I'm thinking of changing out my Mesa 6 saddle on my SPX to a velcro version. Did you ever try one of these on the SPX? 3GG & Vang don't seem to have mossberg versions that I can tell. Thanks.
No, I haven't run a Velcro rig on my 930. I ran a modified TacStar 870 4 rounder, a TacStar 6 rounder, and I currently have a SideArmor 2 rounder.
I know some people that have used the 3GG model on the 930, so it will work.