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woodrowNC
01-27-2011, 22:19
i know back in the early 2000's clint smith said he didn't bother with hp's to eliminate any chance of a malf. said that big bullet would do the trick. in my opinion all the big name ammo manufacturers make quality hp's, and i'm really confident carrying any of them, but i myself sometimes carry speer lawman. same powder charge for the identical fps and good termimal energy to give officers and identical practice round. it's obviously not gonna do the same internal damage but unless it's a head or heart shot the bg ain't gonna stop and drop instantly anyway. i've got a crapload of 230 lawman i got at a good price, but i've also a crapload of goldots, golden saber and hst's. what do yall think of this. keep in mind there's a bunch of coffins filled with ball recipeints. what do yall think?

rsxr22
01-27-2011, 22:50
I would carry ball if I couldnt have JHP's, thats about it. If I couldnt get my gun to function properly by trying different ammunition, I would probably get rid of the gun before I carried ball ammo. You are correct, fmj's do indeed kill, but there are enough defense ammo loads out there to try from. If your gun has problems cycling JHP's, try critical defense, pow'r'ball, and/ or Wilson's custom. I know my TRP does not like GD's, GS's, or HS so i wont even attempt running them through anymore. The Winchester PDX-1 and Wilson Combat has never failed me through a 150 round test of the Win and 100 of the WC

Foxtrotx1
01-27-2011, 22:52
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

samuse
01-27-2011, 22:55
Ball will work just fine if you hit a good spot.

Bowtie
01-27-2011, 23:00
My only concern with ball is over penetration.

HAIL CAESAR
01-27-2011, 23:02
I've carried ball and SWC's. In fact I still do at times.

rsxr22
01-27-2011, 23:04
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

LOL why dont you do a google search on who Clint Smith is....

woodrowNC
01-27-2011, 23:04
My only concern with ball is over penetration.

yes, thought about that.

Bowtie
01-27-2011, 23:05
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

Ball ammo has put alot of people in the ground for alot of years..

woodrowNC
01-27-2011, 23:07
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

you are obviously not familiar with clint smith. spend a litttle time on google and educate yourself.

woodrowNC
01-27-2011, 23:20
My only concern with ball is over penetration.

like i said, i've thought about that, but as far as terminal ballistics, i'm confident it would do the job. and at 17 dollars for 50, it's tempting, compared to a dollar a round of highend sd ammo.

thanks for the opinions.

woodrowNC
01-27-2011, 23:27
I would carry ball if I couldnt have JHP's, thats about it. If I couldnt get my gun to function properly by trying different ammunition, I would probably get rid of the gun before I carried ball ammo. You are correct, fmj's do indeed kill, but there are enough defense ammo loads out there to try from. If your gun has problems cycling JHP's, try critical defense, pow'r'ball, and/ or Wilson's custom. I know my TRP does not like GD's, GS's, or HS so i wont even attempt running them through anymore. The Winchester PDX-1 and Wilson Combat has never failed me through a 150 round test of the Win and 100 of the WC

i agree on the pdx1 and also the goldensaber. the rems seem to have a slightly rounder ogive than other hp's and always have. and when i've had finicky 1911s, the gs's always solved the prob. plus at ammotogo they run about 15 for 25.

Foxtrotx1
01-27-2011, 23:34
Why would I run Ball when there are so many viable Bullet choices that won't over penetrate the target and will deliver more KE and a bigger wound channel? If you don't want a malfunction choose and test your ammo carefully and carry a clean reliable gun.

Cobra64
01-27-2011, 23:36
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

Take a Clint Smith class and you'll come back with your tail tucked between your legs.

Bowtie
01-27-2011, 23:40
like i said, i've thought about that, but as far as terminal ballistics, i'm confident it would do the job. and at 17 dollars for 50, it's tempting, compared to a dollar a round of highend sd ammo.

thanks for the opinions.

The good thing about that is you're only going to spend the bigger $$$ testing for a reliable SD ammo. Once you find what your gun likes you're golden. Its not like you're going to be burning up the good ammo every weekend.

Bowtie
01-27-2011, 23:42
Take a Clint Smith class and you'll come back with your tail tucked between your legs.

Yeah no kidding.

Nestor
01-28-2011, 03:30
I wouldn't mind at all in 45 ACP.
Over penetration with 45 may not be an issue.
I can remember that I was reading ballistic post mortem reports on 45 ball somewhere - those bullets under standard pressure are not over penetrating.

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 03:37
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.



:faint:
.......:faint:
:faint:

MadMonkey
01-28-2011, 03:46
I carry it in my LCP... would probably carry it in a 1911 too.

polizei1
01-28-2011, 05:21
I would also be concerned with over penetration. Chances are, using FMJ you are much more likely for the round to go through the target completely. Instead, JHP's will do more internal damage as well as usually stopping inside the body. This is the best choice for these reasons. Especially for civilians, you have to think...chances are, if you have to use your weapon, it's probably going to be in public, around other people. You do NOT want over penetration. Think about it.

Companies today that make high-end JHP's are reliable and trustable. Shoot a couple hundred rounds through your gun with the JHP's of your choice (I like Speer Gold Dot's), and once you deem them reliable, carry it.

FMJ ball ammo has specific advantages for the military and civilians who compete or target shoot. However for self defense, no way. To give you an idea I believe some Special Operations units use JHP's, most likely because they are within close proximately of the enemy.

Besides, you're not going to shoot that stuff like target ammo anyway. Once you have enough rounds to deem it reliable, just keep a few boxes on hand and rotate the ammo every month or so.

Oh and something I left out...it depends also where you will be traveling. If you have any chances of encountering a large animal with thick hide (bear), JHP's will be essentially useless, so I've heard.

R0CKETMAN
01-28-2011, 05:32
That Clint Smith guy sounds pretty dumb if he actually said that.

Ball will work just fine if you hit a good spot.

LOL why dont you do a google search on who Clint Smith is....

you are obviously not familiar with clint smith. spend a litttle time on google and educate yourself.

I'm quite familiar with Clint Smith and although he is not a dumb person by any means, recommending ball as self defense ammo in an urban environment is not smart.

The potential of over penetration is great.

FLIPPER 348
01-28-2011, 06:22
I use 236g ball in my 1911s for all situations.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 07:22
I am using it currently, I am on a college budget and do not have enough money to buy the amount of Hp's I would need to shoot to feel comfortable carring them. Plus Ball .45acp has been killing people for a while so....

knedrgr
01-28-2011, 07:26
Ed Brown carries ball ammo in his EDC.

lawdog734
01-28-2011, 07:33
Ball ammo would be better than carrying a sharp stick but I'll stay with hp's. I have been running ranger talons thru the no name with 0 problems.

Foxtrotx1
01-28-2011, 07:39
:faint:
.......:faint:
:faint:

:cool: You have to be kidding me if you don't think Ball would be better than a quality HP in the proper loading at stopping an attacker.


I will however rephrase what I said earlier. I'm sure he is not dumb. What I mean to say is that statement sounds dumb, in my opinion.

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
01-28-2011, 07:48
Ed Brown carries ball ammo in his EDC.

I have seen lots of comments over the years that Brown 1911s can be picky about gold dot ammo. But, I am fortunate that my Brown will function 100% with it.

Nakanokalronin
01-28-2011, 08:00
I would not have a problem with ball in 230gr. 45acp or .380. In 38spl and 9mm its HP +P only. I may have an exception with 38spl with a SWC but that would only be in older revolvers without heat treated cylinders. The .357 would be HP as well or semi-jacket HP which I prefer.

Certain rounds are more acceptable with ball over others mainly due to velocity and size/weight of the bullet.

Agent6-3/8
01-28-2011, 08:21
Considering the number of shots that completely miss their target in a shooting, I think overpenetration doesn't warrant more than minimal concern when selecting carry ammo. With that said, ball ammo if a poor choice when there are so many excellent JHP rounds on the market. Yes, ball ammo has killed a lot of people, but thats not a realistic argument. Muskets have also killed a lot of people, but that doesn't make them a good choice for SD in 2011.

Ball ammo will do, but there is much better performing ammo out there now and available for a pretty reasoable cost if you shop around. I think I got my last batch of HST for around $25 per 50. Considering I'll only shoot a few to confirm function, its really pretty cheap.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 08:23
Why would I run Ball when there are so many viable Bullet choices that won't over penetrate the target and will deliver more KE and a bigger wound channel? If you don't want a malfunction choose and test your ammo carefully and carry a clean reliable gun.

i'm not running ball because hp's wont feed. all my 1911's feed every hp i've tried. i've had one kimber that didn't particularly like goldots. but rems, with a more rounded ogive, worked fine. i was really more interested in who runs ball for sd. i need to do a little research on the penetration of 230 ball at 830fps. clint smiths point was that yes, a hp will do more internal damage, but ball, at .452 diameter, is probably damage enough. bad guy ain't going down with one shot unless it's head, heart, or something spinal. i'm not tring to be cheap as i've got close to 3000 rds of good hp's, including goldots, hst, golden saber and pdx1. but if 3 rds of speer lawman with the same weight and fps will do the same job terminally, and you've taken out any possibility of a malf then i've no prob carrying ball. just need to check on penetration.

and no offense meant fox, but clint smith has forgot most of what we'll ever know. if he carries ball, does he worry about overpenetration?

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 08:36
To clarify I would run HP's, but at this time I haven't ran enough HP's to feel 100% with carrying them. I hope to take care of that soon and load up some Gold Dot +Ps

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 08:51
To clarify I would run HP's, but at this time I haven't ran enough HP's to feel 100% with carrying them. I hope to take care of that soon and load up some Gold Dot +Ps

me too. like i said, i've a crapload of it. i was just curious as to who runs ball by choice. if you get a 1911 that's finicky with hp's, try rem hp's. you can actually see a more rounded ogive. now as to it opening up because of clogging, that's a different story. sometimes i think its all marketing. every year, bullet maufacturers come out with the latest greatest dollar a rd sd bullet. federal, then hornady has to match, then rem, then corbon. on and on. 9mm, i want the best hp you can buy. but at.452 dia, damage is being done if it expands or not. not as much no doubt, but enough, in mind, and others opinion.

thanks for the opinions.

hikerpaddler
01-28-2011, 08:52
I am 100% fine with ball. I usually carry gold dots though. i know back in the early 2000's clint smith said he didn't bother with hp's to eliminate any chance of a malf. said that big bullet would do the trick. in my opinion all the big name ammo manufacturers make quality hp's, and i'm really confident carrying any of them, but i myself sometimes carry speer lawman. same powder charge for the identical fps and good termimal energy to give officers and identical practice round. it's obviously not gonna do the same internal damage but unless it's a head or heart shot the bg ain't gonna stop and drop instantly anyway. i've got a crapload of 230 lawman i got at a good price, but i've also a crapload of goldots, golden saber and hst's. what do yall think of this. keep in mind there's a bunch of coffins filled with ball recipeints. what do yall think?

PhotoFeller
01-28-2011, 09:23
There is a current, extensive thread on the 1911 Forum that addresses the thread title 'FMJ vs JHP.....Will FMJ get the job done for SD?' Guys who really know ballistics and study wound characteristics, penetration, feed reliability, etc. discuss and debate this question. A very solid case is presented for full metal jacket bullets with a flat nose (FMJ-FN) for SD. If you're really interested in understanding the technical (ballistic based) answer to your OP, check the 1911 Forum under the Ammo Can.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 09:54
For me FMJ, SWC, and HPs each have a specific role where one is better than the other. I would think SWC's would be a nice compromise between the other too, but I'm not an expert so....

Quack
01-28-2011, 09:55
No problem carrying FMJ in a 1911 for SD.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 09:59
No problem carrying FMJ in a 1911 for SD.
Heck I feel better with ball .45 than I did with HP 9mm, might be unfounded but that big bullet does make you feel all warm and tingly.

tango44
01-28-2011, 10:08
Ball ammo for my 1911! and I can sleep peacefully every day!

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 10:14
well, i couldn't stand it, so i called hornady, speer, and rem. hornady and speer say yes, it will go thru. rem says it depends on the size of the perp, what he's wearing, if it hits bone and so on. i also took into account that these guys want to sell their high end sd ammo, but i have to take them at their word. i guess if you're in a mad max scenario and you want 2 at the time, fmj is the way to go. :rofl: i sorta thought the speer would because their lawman ammo is loaded to the same specs as goldot to give cops realistic training ammo. plus the lawman still has 322 fp of energy at 50 yds. so no more fmj sd for me. still, it has it's place. in the woods for example.

but for those interested, ammotogo has 50 rd boxes of 230 lawman at 20 a box. it's exellent ammo. clean, loaded same as the goldots. and sometimes he has it on sale for 17. i got a couple thousand rds at that price.

thanks to all for the interest.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 10:16
Heck I feel better with ball .45 than I did with HP 9mm, might be unfounded but that big bullet does make you feel all warm and tingly.

i agree. and i can still carry it in my home. we have a safe room, and if everyone is in there and accounted for, well it's katie bar the door time.

Desert Lake
01-28-2011, 10:43
Does it bother anyone else that FMJ ammo gets called "ball" ammo. The term 'ball' refers to the shape of the powder granules(as opposed to 'stick' powder), not the shape of the bullet. I cringe every time I read that.. I liken it to calling magazines "clips" maybe it's just a pet peave..


..and I do feel comfortable carrying ball, I carry two wherever I go

tango44
01-28-2011, 10:46
Does it bother anyone else that FMJ ammo gets called "ball" ammo. The term 'ball' refers to the shape of the powder granules(as opposed to 'stick' powder), not the shape of the bullet. I cringe every time I read that.. I liken it to calling magazines "clips" maybe just a pet peave..

Does not bother me at all, the Army calls it Ball and that's fine by me, calling the magazines a "clip" it does bothers me a lot! :wow:

Quack
01-28-2011, 10:47
Does it bother anyone else that FMJ ammo gets called "ball" ammo. The term 'ball' refers to the shape of the powder granules(as opposed to 'stick' powder), not the shape of the bullet. I cringe every time I read that.. I liken it to calling magazines "clips" maybe just a pet peave..

nope, doesn't bother me. It's just a generic term.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 10:49
nope, doesn't bother me. It's just a generic term.

So your gun holds 7 balls in the clip?

Quack
01-28-2011, 10:50
and when you say "stick" i think of these:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Thompson1927A1/DSC01017.jpg

Quack
01-28-2011, 10:50
So your gun holds 7 balls in the clip?

nope, i have 8 balls :tongueout::rofl:

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 10:52
Gun term NAZI's!

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 10:55
nope, i have 8 balls :tongueout::rofl:

I have none. Sadly, Mrs Hokie had mine removed and shows them off like a trophy to the other PTA wives. :crying:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Truck_Nuts.jpg/220px-Truck_Nuts.jpg

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 11:00
Does it bother anyone else that FMJ ammo gets called "ball" ammo. The term 'ball' refers to the shape of the powder granules(as opposed to 'stick' powder), not the shape of the bullet. I cringe every time I read that.. I liken it to calling magazines "clips" maybe it's just a pet peave..


..and I do feel comfortable carrying ball, I carry two wherever I go

it's the military term for fmj. get over it. the term ball also refers to a football, baseball, tennis, basketball. and i've never heard powder referred to as stick. and i've been reloading for 25yrs. spherical, extruded, ball, flake, but not stick. did you play that guy Monk on tv? :wavey:

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 11:05
Wow,....there's a bunch of "he doesn't know what he's talkin bout" in this thread.
Of course there's a buch of "let me pull this outta my butt" posts also.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 11:07
and when you say "stick" i think of these:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Thompson1927A1/DSC01017.jpg

me too. and i want one of those bad. i guess i want one of everything. except a keltec, hi point, or and sa/da auto. after 30 yrs of 1911's and hps, i can't bear the da trigger.

Desert Lake
01-28-2011, 11:07
it's the military term for fmj. get over it. the term ball also refers to a football, baseball, tennis, basketball. and i've never heard powder referred to as stick. and i've been reloading for 25yrs. spherical, extruded, ball, flake, but not stick. did you play that guy Monk on tv? :wavey:

it is NOT the military's term for FMJ. FMJ is the military's term for FMJ. BALL is the military's term term for ball powder. Don't get nasty

And no, I just don't like to say things that sound ignorant or illiterate. I also don't like misspelled words. Is that OK with you too? :tongueout:

pistolwrench
01-28-2011, 11:12
Clint also REALLY liked the Taurus PT1911.

:upeyes:

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 11:27
[QUOTE=Quack;16757226]and when you say "stick" i think of these:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Thompson1927A1/DSC01017.jpg[/QUOTe

me too. and i want one.
sorry for the double post.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 11:28
Clint also REALLY liked the Taurus PT1911.

:upeyes:

that's cold wrench, real cold. :rofl:

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 11:30
:cool: You have to be kidding me if you don't think Ball would be better than a quality HP in the proper loading at stopping an attacker.......


You will not find me carrying ball ammo

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 11:41
nope, i have 8 balls :tongueout::rofl:
Caliber war!

8 small ones or one big one...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/8Ball.jpg

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 11:43
I have none. Sadly, Mrs Hokie had mine removed and shows them off like a trophy to the other PTA wives. :crying:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Truck_Nuts.jpg/220px-Truck_Nuts.jpg

:animlol:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 11:43
I have none. Sadly, Mrs Hokie had mine removed and shows them off like a trophy to the other PTA wives. :crying:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Truck_Nuts.jpg/220px-Truck_Nuts.jpg



http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cats%20-%20Dogs/SquirrelHung.gif

Uh oh...

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 11:46
it is NOT the military's term for FMJ. FMJ is the military's term for FMJ. BALL is the military's term term for ball powder. Don't get nasty

And no, I just don't like to say things that sound ignorant or illiterate. I also don't like misspelled words. Is that OK with you too? :tongueout:

sorry if i misspelled anything. perhaps you could correct me. and trust me, i'm not getting nasty. this is the internet. i don't know you, and to be honest, don't care to know you. i seldom argue on the internet, so if you want to call it stick, fine. i and thousands others will call it ball to your everlasting consternation. and my friend, EVERYTHING is ok with me. :rofl:
but you do seem alittle uptight.

Quack
01-28-2011, 12:06
looks like it says ball to me???

http://users.rcn.com/chinmonster/military_ammo.jpg

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 12:08
Does it bother anyone else that FMJ ammo gets called "ball" ammo... I cringe every time I read that.. I liken it to calling magazines "clips" maybe it's just a pet peave..


Take it up with the Pentagon.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/BALL.jpg

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 12:10
looks like it says ball to me???

http://users.rcn.com/chinmonster/military_ammo.jpg

You beat me to it as I was shooting a shot of my ball. :rofl:

Quack
01-28-2011, 12:13
From U.S. Army Field Manual 23-35, Section VI, Ammunition:

17. General.–The information in this section pertaining to the ammunition authorized for use in the automatic pistol, cal. .45, M1911 and M1911A1, includes a description of the cartridges, means of identification, care, use, and ballistic data.

18. Classification.–The types of ammunition provided for this pistol are–
a. Ball, for use against personnel and light matériel targets.
b. Dummy, for training (cartridges are inert).

Quack
01-28-2011, 12:14
You beat me to it as I was shooting a shot of my ball. :rofl:

looks like my balls are bigger than your balls :rofl:

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 12:23
looks like it says ball to me???

http://users.rcn.com/chinmonster/military_ammo.jpg

Take it up with the Pentagon.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/BALL.jpg



From U.S. Army Field Manual 23-35, Section VI, Ammunition:
FACE!!:whistling:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 12:35
looks like my balls are bigger than your balls :rofl:

Yeah, well it's cold here, and I was just outside. :rofl:

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 12:41
Sweet,.......balls in a cardboard box! :notworthy:


Epic!

Quack
01-28-2011, 12:42
Sweet,.......balls in a cardboard box! :notworthy:


Epic!

it must be a Baer then :animlol:

Jack Black
01-28-2011, 12:44
So the OP says Clint said that in the early 2000s. Anyone know if he still uses ball in his self defense gun?

tx787
01-28-2011, 12:52
Sure, I'm just more comfortable carrying JHP...


afterall, they are lighter

Desert Lake
01-28-2011, 13:01
sorry if i misspelled anything. perhaps you could correct me. and trust me, i'm not getting nasty. this is the internet. i don't know you, and to be honest, don't care to know you. i seldom argue on the internet, so if you want to call it stick, fine. i and thousands others will call it ball to your everlasting consternation. and my friend, EVERYTHING is ok with me. :rofl:
but you do seem alittle uptight.


Do I seem uptight? I'm not uptight at all actually. I can see that this was a mistake to bring it up. Thank you all for posting all of the pictures of the military ammo. I know what they look like, I'm ex-military myself, I've opened plenty of them.

It says ball on the box, sure does, never disputed that for a second. All I was saying is that it is referring to the powder, not the bullet.

Yall have a good day! I'm all done here, I'm sorry I brought it up in the first place :drink:

I'll shoot the FMJ, and you guys can shoot your balls, I'm good with that! :patriot:

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 13:18
Sure, I'm just more comfortable carrying JHP...


afterall, they are lighter
Must be a real manly man if that extra .00002 pounds bothers you.:whistling:

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 13:29
it is NOT the military's term for FMJ. FMJ is the military's term for FMJ. BALL is the military's term term for ball powder. Don't get nasty

And no, I just don't like to say things that sound ignorant or illiterate. I also don't like misspelled words. Is that OK with you too? :tongueout:

Uh, YES it is!

The military differentiates ammo by types; ball, tracer, armor piercing, incendiary, blank, etc. "Ball" simply designates a projectile that is used as only a projectile.

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 13:38
it is NOT the military's term for FMJ. FMJ is the military's term for FMJ. BALL is the military's term term for ball powder. Don't get nasty

And no, I just don't like to say things that sound ignorant or illiterate. I also don't like misspelled words. Is that OK with you too? :tongueout:

Problem with misspelled words but not with sentence structure or proof reading I see.

Should have started that sentence with a capital "I".

You used the word "term" twice in a row in one sentence.

Begining the second sentance with " And no " is poor sentence structure and makes no sense at all..

Just saying.

JK-linux
01-28-2011, 13:46
I prefer JHP, but give the utmost respect to FMJ. I'm pretty sure I could stop a man from doing whatever he was doing beforehand by shooting him in the chest or head with FMJ ammunition. I'm also pretty sure that if I shot the same guy in the shin or arm or ass, it wouldn't matter if it was FMJ or JHP. If I missed all together, I'm pretty sure the configuration of the 230gr piece of copper and lead I missed with wouldn't matter in the overall scheme of things either.

Desert Lake
01-28-2011, 13:46
Problem with misspelled words but not with sentence structure or proof reading I see.

Should have started that sentence with a capital "I".

You used the word "term" twice in a row in one sentence.

Begining the second sentance with " And no " is poor sentence structure and makes no sense at all..

Just saying.


Touche. I wasn't suggesting that he misspelled any words, I was just trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with suggesting that things be called what they actually are. I deal with the "oh well" attitute all day, and I guess I am just sick of it. I read resumes and letters from people, and they are just riddled with misspelled words, words used incorrectly, bastardized colloquialisms, I'm just tired of it. We Americans are starting to sounds like a bunch of idiots!

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 14:17
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/M1%20Garand/M1GarandColt1911andKabar.jpg

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 14:20
geez, what a post. i just wanted to know what yall thought about carrying ball. an earlier poster asked if clint still carried ball. maybe not because if i'm not mistaken i've seen him pushing the xd line recently and i don't think they suffer the same feed probs as a 1911. i don't own one, so if they do, school me.

would someone pls proofread my post?

CAcop
01-28-2011, 14:25
I'll take ball if there was nothing else or the gun wouldn't feed any JHP but I would also be looking for another gun.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 14:25
Uh, YES it is!

The military differentiates ammo by types; ball, tracer, armor piercing, incendiary, blank, etc. "Ball" simply designates a projectile that is used as only a projectile.

thank you. like it really makes a rats a&& anyway. i gotta tread lightly. don't want to offend somebody.

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 14:32
geez, what a post. i just wanted to know what yall thought about carrying ball. an earlier poster asked if clint still carried ball. maybe not because if i'm not mistaken i've seen him pushing the xd line recently and i don't think they suffer the same feed probs as a 1911. i don't own one, so if they do, school me.

would someone pls proofread my post?

I proof read it and its all ****ed up!

Clint may push the XD's but he still prefers the 1911's

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 14:42
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/M1%20Garand/M1GarandColt1911andKabar.jpg

like that pic. i'm gonna be working on my ww11 collection as soon as i get my 1911's back from the custom shops. already have a mosin and accouterments, k98 and accouterments. really want a garand and 1903. better hurry too, cause the 03's ain't getting any cheaper.
s

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 14:51
geez, what a post. I just wanted to know what yall thought about carrying ball. An earlier poster asked if clint still carried ball. Maybe not because if i'm not mistaken i've seen him pushing the xd line recently and i don't think they suffer the same feed probs as a 1911. I don't own one, so if they do, school me.

Would someone pls proofread my post?

WELCOME TO GT! Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 14:57
welcome to gt! Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

i know, i know. certainly not everybody, but there are some OCD cases here.

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 15:10
i know, i know. certainly not everybody, but there are some OCD cases here.

Oh I hear ya.. when someone goofs up, faawrenchbndr, Cobra and Quack come flying out of the bleachers.. I try to calm them down but it just dont work..

ajgranda
01-28-2011, 15:24
I'd be happy with a .90cal ball at 900fps. :rofl:

ajstrider
01-28-2011, 15:29
I have a few things to say about this I suppose.

First there is at least one state, New Jersey, that outlaws hollowpoints in concealed carry weapons. So some people are required to carry full metal jacket ammo. I do believe the Federal Expanding FMJ ammo is allowed, but you would have to read the fine print of the laws on that one.

I would not hesitate to carry fmj ammo myself, but it would make me rethink my caliber I use for concealed carry. For me, if I am worried about over penetration and hurting someone behind my target, you are violating a golden rule of weapons, beware of what is behind your target. Hollowpoint or fmj, any bullet has a chance to pass through and cause collateral damage. I think if you firing a gun at someone with a crowd of people behind them, you are making the wrong decision. That is my opinion, and we are entitled to one. I'm sure there are a few circumstances that might warrant such action, but the majority of the cases of using a concealed weapon to protect oneself is more along the lines of no one else is around and you get approached by a person meaning to do you harm.

I like to practice extensively with my carry ammo also, not just fire 100 rounds to make sure it functions. I like to shoot my carry ammo to ensure I am always hitting where I want to hit with the ammo that I will be using if the situation ever arises. I want to be use to its recoil, noise, muzzle flash, and point of impact. Firing 100 rounds through my gun and then hardly ever using that ammo again, does not fill that bill for me.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 15:31
Oh I hear ya.. when someone goofs up, faawrenchbndr, Cobra and Quack come flying out of the bleachers.. I try to calm them down but it just dont work..

yeah, but it's the internet. we don't know each other, and if you're like me, you could care less what others think anyway. i mostly read to learn something new, helpful. which i often do. what surprises me is IF i knew these people personally, i would never talk to them in a rude manner. just the way i was raised. it's amazing what people will say to one another from a 1000 miles apart. funny. i've been around guns exstensively for 42 yrs. there's much, much i need to learn, but i know what i know. mostly from first hand. thanks for covering my six.

boomhower
01-28-2011, 15:31
I'll take ball if there was nothing else or the gun wouldn't feed any JHP but I would also be looking for another gun.

Agreed.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-28-2011, 15:34
Some people just can't handle online forums and get way to sensitive to some jokes, but I could careless, my skin is thick enough.....that was until Hokie started posting Ray Ramano pics.......:crying:

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 15:34
I have a few things to say about this I suppose.

First there is at least one state, New Jersey, that outlaws hollowpoints in concealed carry weapons. So some people are required to carry full metal jacket ammo. I do believe the Federal Expanding FMJ ammo is allowed, but you would have to read the fine print of the laws on that one.

I would not hesitate to carry fmj ammo myself, but it would make me rethink my caliber I use for concealed carry. For me, if I am worried about over penetration and hurting someone behind my target, you are violating a golden rule of weapons, beware of what is behind your target. Hollowpoint or fmj, any bullet has a chance to pass through and cause collateral damage. I think if you firing a gun at someone with a crowd of people behind them, you are making the wrong decision. That is my opinion, and we are entitled to one. I'm sure there are a few circumstances that might warrant such action, but the majority of the cases of using a concealed weapon to protect oneself is more along the lines of no one else is around and you get approached by a person meaning to do you harm.

I like to practice extensively with my carry ammo also, not just fire 100 rounds to make sure it functions. I like to shoot my carry ammo to ensure I am always hitting where I want to hit with the ammo that I will be using if the situation ever arises. I want to be use to its recoil, noise, muzzle flash, and point of impact. Firing 100 rounds through my gun and then hardly ever using that ammo again, does not fill that bill for me.

we almost think alike on that, word for word.

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 15:41
yeah, but it's the internet. we don't know each other, and if you're like me, you could care less what others think anyway. i mostly read to learn something new, helpful. which i often do. what surprises me is IF i knew these people personally, i would never talk to them in a rude manner. just the way i was raised. it's amazing what people will say to one another from a 1000 miles apart. funny. i've been around guns exstensively for 42 yrs. there's much, much i need to learn, but i know what i know. mostly from first hand. thanks for covering my six.

I'll tell you what, once you have been here for a long while you'll get to know alot of these guys and talk **** to them like they are your best friends. I have met quit a few here that I'd do everything I could for them if needed. I've even got to go shoot with a handfull.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 15:41
I'll take ball if there was nothing else or the gun wouldn't feed any JHP but I would also be looking for another gun.

think about that. what if it was an original series 70, no throat work, no polished feed ramp. bone stock. and all it would feed was ball, as it was supposed to. gun is in 98% condition. of course you wouldn't carry it for sd, but would you get rid of it? i have 2 1911's like that and would take nothing for them. i just shoot ball.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 15:44
I'll tell you what, once you have been here for a long while you'll get to know alot of these guys and talk **** to them like they are your best friends. I have met quit a few here that I'd do everything I could for them if needed. I've even got to go shoot with a handfull.

roger that.

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 15:57
think about that. what if it was an original series 70, no throat work, no polished feed ramp. bone stock. and all it would feed was ball, as it was supposed to. gun is in 98% condition. of course you wouldn't carry it for sd, but would you get rid of it? i have 2 1911's like that and would take nothing for them. i just shoot ball.


Remington Golden Sabers should do nicely in those.

FM12
01-28-2011, 16:17
I load mine with whatever is close by when filling the mags, sometimes ball, sometimes my 185 gr hollow point reloads.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 16:35
Remington Golden Sabers should do nicely in those.

is it just me, or have you noticed rems have always had a more rounded ogive. not just the GS's, but 20 yrs ago if i couldn't get hp's to feed in a 1911 i'd try rem hp and they would feed. yes they had a smaller hp, but that was necessary to faciltate feeding. when throating and polishing was almost mandatory to feed hp's, i wonder why the major manufacturers didn't round their bullet profile just a little. colt is machining a small groove at 6 oclock on their throat, supposedly on all their new barrels and my 3in new agent will not choke. on anything. it's the first place the bullet contacts, first point of trouble, but there's nothing there to catch on. there's a pic of it somewher on 1911.org. i think it's a great idea, but you don't hear much of it. and you're right about the golden sabers. i've about 500 rds of em. 15 for a box of 25 beats 25 for a box of 20.

nastytrigger
01-28-2011, 17:13
I've tried several HP's through my Springer. Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, WWB JHP, etc. The one I thought it would hiccup on was CorBon +P's loaded with Sierra Sports Master. I loaded up a mag and thought it would fail to feed since the hollow area looked HUGE. My Springer ate the whole mag no problem. I've shot around 200rds of it and love it. I carry the CorBon +P's and Remington Golden Sabers mostly. I've carried FMJ .45 and 9 before, but I prefer hollowpoints. If SHTF, I don't have enough JHP's to last me very long. Between the .45 and 9 pistols I have, I only have 80rds of hollowpoints for each. I rotate the ammo every couple of months. I'll shoot some from time to time for practice and replace it if I can find it (hard to do now a days).

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 17:56
I've tried several HP's through my Springer. Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, WWB JHP, etc. The one I thought it would hiccup on was CorBon +P's loaded with Sierra Sports Master. I loaded up a mag and thought it would fail to feed since the hollow area looked HUGE. My Springer ate the whole mag no problem. I've shot around 200rds of it and love it. I carry the CorBon +P's and Remington Golden Sabers mostly. I've carried FMJ .45 and 9 before, but I prefer hollowpoints. If SHTF, I don't have enough JHP's to last me very long. Between the .45 and 9 pistols I have, I only have 80rds of hollowpoints for each. I rotate the ammo every couple of months. I'll shoot some from time to time for practice and replace it if I can find it (hard to do now a days).

ammotogo has always treated me well. there may be cheaper online, but atg works for me. check out this link.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo?osCsid=351cae4abe0867153968e729e92fe5ab
50rds of ranger talon for 33
185 and 230 golden saber 25 for 16.
normally those high end sd rds are a buck a piece. unless its corbon, which are almost 2 bucks a piece.

i think i'm gonna get 250 of the 185 gs for my 3in 1911 because of the barrel lenght and 250 of gs for my longer barreled 45's. i love that place.
he has excellent deals on 9 too.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 18:27
Oh I hear ya.. when someone goofs up, faawrenchbndr, Cobra and Quack come flying out of the bleachers.. I try to calm them down but it just dont work..

Yeah! Those guys are nothing but instigators. F them. Jerks. :supergrin:

Some people just can't handle online forums and get way to sensitive to some jokes, but I could careless, my skin is thick enough.....that was until Hokie started posting Ray Ramano pics.......:crying:

You pansie. Grow a pair of BALLS why don't ya. :rofl:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 18:39
like that pic. i'm gonna be working on my ww11 collection as soon as i get my 1911's back from the custom shops. already have a mosin and accouterments, k98 and accouterments. really want a garand and 1903. better hurry too, cause the 03's ain't getting any cheaper.
s

We haven't gotten to WW11 yet. I'd admit the last WW was WWIII that ended in 1989 with the fall of communism. But that's open to definition and thus debate. :)

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 18:44
Some people just can't handle online forums and get way to sensitive to some jokes, but I could careless, my skin is thick enough.....that was until Hokie started posting Ray Ramano pics.......:crying:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/EGGSACTLY.png There's a lot of up-tight-ed-ness here.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 18:47
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/EGGSACTLY.png There's a lot of up-tight-ed-ness here.

Speaking of which...how tall are you? 5'4? :whistling: :tongueout:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 18:48
Remington Golden Sabers should do nicely in those.

Greg, For serious work, I'm a Gold Dot fan. :supergrin:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/AMMO4.jpg

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 18:51
Speaking of which...how tall are you? 5'4? :whistling: :tongueout:

I used to be 5'10" but I've shrunk and inch since college. That instructor you saw is 6' 3" and built like a Marine, handled his AR (and Glock) like one too. Glad he's on our side... scary mutha-forker.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 18:56
We haven't gotten to WW11 yet. I'd admit the last WW was WWIII that ended in 1989 with the fall of communism. But that's open to definition and thus debate. :)

ok, i know what you mean. let me call it the general concensus of what is considered ww11. would love a couple of service 45's, a garand in decent shape, 03. my 45 at the colt shop is paid for. just waiting. they said Feb. the springer gi is getting tricked out pretty good and it's gonna take awhile. then it's a 629 4in smith to go with my levers. after that, its 2nd ww stuff. i really, really need a BAR. and would love to have a thompson.
everytime i watch saving private ryan, i end up on the auto ordanance site. everytime.:cool:

ok, now i really know what you mean. the 11 is ll. doubt we'll see 11.

nastytrigger
01-28-2011, 19:00
ammotogo has always treated me well. there may be cheaper online, but atg works for me. check out this link.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/45-acp-hollow-point-ammo?osCsid=351cae4abe0867153968e729e92fe5ab
50rds of ranger talon for 33
185 and 230 golden saber 25 for 16.
normally those high end sd rds are a buck a piece. unless its corbon, which are almost 2 bucks a piece.

i think i'm gonna get 250 of the 185 gs for my 3in 1911 because of the barrel lenght and 250 of gs for my longer barreled 45's. i love that place.
he has excellent deals on 9 too.

Thank you! I'm definitely in need of 9 and 45 hollowpoints.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 19:00
Greg, For serious work, I'm a Gold Dot fan. :supergrin:


Amen, brother. That's what I trust my life to.

http://www.policemag.com/_Images/news/SpeerGoldDot-web-2.jpg

faawrenchbndr
01-28-2011, 19:02
Greg, For serious work, I'm a Gold Dot fan. :supergrin:


I like it as well,.....I recommended Sabers since it seemed he thought his weapon only cared for ball.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 19:03
everytime i watch saving private ryan, i end up on the auto ordanance site. everytime.:cool:



Woody....I have no earthly idea why. :dunno:

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/HokiePS7/1911-1.gif

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 19:12
Yeah! Those guys are nothing but instigators. F them. Jerks. :supergrin::

I hear ya.. I on the other hand am always trying to keep the peace. but those guys, its a full time job trying to keep them out of trouble..

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 19:19
I hear ya.. I on the other hand am always trying to keep the peace. but those guys, its a full time job trying to keep them out of trouble..

I'm like Switzerland. :whistling:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 19:29
I'm like Switzerland. :whistling:


http://agencybabylon.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/i_live_to_stir_the_pot_tshirt-p235758243249441515t5tr_400.jpg

"Hi, I'm Hokiemon, and I approve of this message."










:rofl:

Foxtrotx1
01-28-2011, 19:30
You will not find me carrying ball ammo

Then we agree :wavey:

Clint may not be an idiot, but, his statement was idiotic.

awpk03s
01-28-2011, 19:32
I trust hollow points. Specifically, Winchester bonded or Speer Gold Dots.

Would I be comfortable with ball ammo? Sure.
Would I be comfortable shooting the bad guy and an innocent behind them? Nope.
Hence the JHP.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 19:33
I like it as well,.....I recommended Sabers since it seemed he thought his weapon only cared for ball.

no, no, no. all my 45's feed anything. except for one. an original series 70 that i'm leaving stock. no throat, polish or anything. it was made for ball and that's all it'll get. range gun. it's handled some hp's but didn't like goldots. it's in beautiful condition, maybe 98%. someone took care of it. i've got one at colts getting throated and polished and i expect it to feed my fav hp round. in the op i was looking for folks who carried ball for sd. all because of clint smiths statement. i just wondered who else did the same. i like gs's. they'll feed when no other hp will in my expierence.

thanks for the heads up though.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 19:35
Woody....I have no earthly idea why. :dunno:

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/HokiePS7/1911-1.gif


i want 500 rds of THAT.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 19:36
i want 500 rds of THAT.

I just want one.....and a Nazi tank to blow the F up. :supergrin:

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 19:56
Then we agree :wavey:

Clint may not be an idiot, but, his statement was idiotic.

One rule I always follow, listen to anonymous internet gun guy over any published firearms instructors. :wavey:

Chuck Taylor has said the same thing regarding .45ACP ball ammo that Clint did.

But then what does he know bout guns......just cause he has 5 published articles for every post your have on here :)

http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarmsacademy.com/aboutchuck.html

:wavey:

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 19:56
Then we agree :wavey:

Clint may not be an idiot, but, his statement was idiotic.

i'm not saying he's right or wrong. but i would like to know what HE knows about the penetration characteristics of a 230 ball at 830fps. i'm sure he doesn't want to injure or kill an innocent bystander either. just wondering why he would feel comfortable with ball as a sd round.

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 19:58
I just want one.....and a Nazi tank to blow the F up. :supergrin:

Thinking small my friend to the north......

I am thinking time machine, a 1911 and a full mag of that ammo to sink the Bismark.

http://www.kbismarck.com/

:rofl:

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 20:00
One rule I always follow, listen to anonymous internet gun guy over any published firearms instructors. :wavey:

Chuck Taylor has aid the same thing regarding .45ACP ball ammo that Clint did.

But then what does he know bout guns......

http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarmsacademy.com/aboutchuck.html

:wavey:

so you agree with carrying 230 ball for sd? i'm not hammering on you, i'm just trying to figure it out.

Hokie1911
01-28-2011, 20:01
Thinking small my friend to the north......

I am thinking time machine, a 1911 and a full mag of that ammo to sink the Bismark.

http://www.kbismarck.com/

:rofl:

I should have known better. You Texas boys always do everything "bigger". :rofl:

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 20:07
I should have known better. You Texas boys always do everything "bigger". :rofl:

Let me tell you about my reoccurring dream that involves me, time travel, the Alamo and a M60 with 10,000 rds :rofl:

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 20:13
so you agree with carrying 230 ball for sd? i'm not hammering on you, i'm just trying to figure it out.

Absolutely I do carry it. I also carry PDX JHPs at times. I have no concerns switching between the 2 types. I do agree that over penetration is the only concern with 230 Gr ball ammo. On the other hand I do feel the same confidence using FMJs in my .38 Super 1911.

I would say there is no more proven handgun round in American history than 230Gr ball.

"Unnoticed by York, several Germans moved forward, locating York's position. Out of sight, they counted the shots from York's rifle, establishing the pattern of his shooting. They counted a series of 5 shots from his Enfield and rushed York to gain the advantage of the few extra seconds it took to reload the rifle.

As the Germans charged, they came into easy pistol range. York brought the .45 automatic into action, stopping the patrol in its tracks. He continued shooting and advancing, killing a total of 25 German soldiers and capturing 132 by himself. York was promoted to Sergeant and awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor."

Alvin York FTW!!!!!!

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 20:22
we need a cadaver.

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 20:32
we need a cadaver.

:rofl:

Sick, but very funny :rofl:

LASTRESORT20
01-28-2011, 20:38
Ball ammo has put alot of people in the ground for alot of years..


Yes it has.......

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 20:44
:rofl:

Sick, but very funny :rofl:

i know. but i don't take comments by clint or chuck lightly and i want to know why they're comfortable with possible injury to bystanders. i mean i can read all this crap on the internet all day and ignore it, but when two fellows like that say something, i'm gonna listen.

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 20:46
i know. but i don't take comments by clint or chuck lightly and i want to know why they're comfortable with possible injury to bystanders. i mean i can read all this crap on the internet all day and ignore it, but when two fellows like that say something, i'm gonna listen.

Me too....me too.......:wavey:

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 20:52
i know. but i don't take comments by clint or chuck lightly and i want to know why they're comfortable with possible injury to bystanders. i mean i can read all this crap on the internet all day and ignore it, but when two fellows like that say something, i'm gonna listen.

What if Clint said one thing and Chuck said the opposite, Who do YOU listen to?

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 21:28
What if Clint said one thing and Chuck said the opposite, Who do YOU listen to?

you have a good point. that's why we need a cadaver. :cool:

the info's out there we just need to find it. maybe they were just talking about street, gang, collateral damage doesn't matter type situations. like myself. if my family is in the safe room i could care less. buckshot, 30-06, ar15 whatever. i can fix a wall. and in that case, i wouldn't care about someone in another room. i don't know the answere.

but the telling thing is they didn't disagree.

Nestor
01-28-2011, 21:31
History may hiding a clue...

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 21:44
we need a cadaver.

It won't be long now...

:rofl:

Ruggles
01-28-2011, 21:53
What if Clint said one thing and Chuck said the opposite, Who do YOU listen to?

Easy...I would just go alphabetical......oh wait......:dunno:

Nestor
01-28-2011, 21:53
I think that You may be asked to remove this picture soon.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 21:55
It won't be long now...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Obama/OBAMACAREPATIENTSFACILITY.jpg







:rofl:

i so hope you're not right. :rofl:but, at least we could get a definitive answere.:supergrin:

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 21:56
It won't be long now...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Obama/OBAMACAREPATIENTSFACILITY.jpg







:rofl:

:rofl: Killin me bro..You have some of the most ****ed up stuff on your putor..

CAcop
01-28-2011, 22:05
think about that. what if it was an original series 70, no throat work, no polished feed ramp. bone stock. and all it would feed was ball, as it was supposed to. gun is in 98% condition. of course you wouldn't carry it for sd, but would you get rid of it? i have 2 1911's like that and would take nothing for them. i just shoot ball.

I get what you are saying. I wouldn't get rid of a target gun just because it wouldn't feed FMJ. Heck if I had a gun like that I would probably keep it and turn it into a paper puncher only. I would buy something else.

A hidden gem in the ammo world to me is the Walmart valuepacks of JHP that Remmy used to put out. I have some left over that I use for my off duty guns. They work well and are cheap to try out in a gun. They also have round profiles so they probably feed in just about any gun. I wouldn't use them for duty use because they probably aren't as good as premium rounds when going through barrier but they work for my purposes.

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 22:06
:rofl: Killin me bro..You have some of the most ****ed up stuff on your putor..

Yeah, but as I've said a few times in the past, we need a little "diversion" once in a while. :)

Especially since we can't post pics of wimmin anymore the way we did a few years ago. :faint:

Cobra64
01-28-2011, 22:08
I think that You may be asked to remove this picture soon.

Do ya think? ... Okay.

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 22:23
Yeah, but as I've said a few times in the past, we need a little "diversion" once in a while. :)

Especially since we can't post pics of wimmin anymore the way we did a few years ago. :faint:

Oh i'm right there with you Bro...100%

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 22:24
I get what you are saying. I wouldn't get rid of a target gun just because it wouldn't feed FMJ. Heck if I had a gun like that I would probably keep it and turn it into a paper puncher only. I would buy something else.

A hidden gem in the ammo world to me is the Walmart valuepacks of JHP that Remmy used to put out. I have some left over that I use for my off duty guns. They work well and are cheap to try out in a gun. They also have round profiles so they probably feed in just about any gun. I wouldn't use them for duty use because they probably aren't as good as premium rounds when going through barrier but they work for my purposes.

i'm diggin ya. all the rem hp's are like that. i know it's not the reason, but it's almost like they're saying "hey, other brand hp's wont feed in an unworked 1911. lets round our ogive profile just a little". it's been that way for years. i remember it back in the 80's. bad thing is, the more rounded the ogive, the less hp cavity you have. i don't use them because they're so darn high, but that powerball ammo is a good idea. also the hornady with the plastic insert. but i can't go a buck a round. goldots and golden sabers for me. and sometimes ball.:rofl: atg buys in bulk and i've bought 230 goldots there for 25 for a box of 50. you simply can't beat that. every now and then they show up. keep checking.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 22:27
Yeah, but as I've said a few times in the past, we need a little "diversion" once in a while. :)

Especially since we can't post pics of wimmin anymore the way we did a few years ago. :faint:

yall used to could do that? now that's the perfect gun forum!

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 22:37
yall used to could do that? now that's the perfect gun forum!

Yeah but with anything good, theres always that ONE guy who has to push it beyond the limits and screw it up for everyone..

Bowtie
01-28-2011, 22:39
yall used to could do that?

Cooter?... Is that you?

S. Kelly
01-28-2011, 23:03
I have JHP for my Glock 45s and M&p45s-they feed and function fine with HPs. The JHPs should work well in my Springfield Loaded as well. But I do have a small supply of ball ammo for my 1911 mil-specs, just to use if the SHTF.

woodrowNC
01-28-2011, 23:23
Cooter?... Is that you?

:rofl:no, i'm bilingual. i speak english, and southern. probably more fluent in southern.:cool:

PrecisionRifleman
01-28-2011, 23:34
I wouldn't mind at all in 45 ACP.
Over penetration with 45 may not be an issue.
I can remember that I was reading ballistic post mortem reports on 45 ball somewhere - those bullets under standard pressure are not over penetrating.

Same here..I'm comfortable with it in my 45 but not in my 9mm. 9mm hardball penetrates like no other.

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 01:43
Yeah but with anything good, theres always that ONE guy who has to push it beyond the limits and screw it up for everyone..

Yup. We had that thread going for about 6-7 months.

Cars - all the neat '60s muscle cars like Camaros, Chevelles, 442s, Hemis, Cobras, GTOs, Firebirds
Assorted bikes
Variety of adult beverages including beer drinking, Bavarian babes
Wimmin holding guns, bows, in bikinis, pointy bras
Desserts including fur peach pie
Les Baers in $3,000 carboard boxes
Assorted boxes

Then a newb came along and got it locked. After that, many of us went to therapy for counseling, and some weren't heard from for weeks.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/Juxtaposition01.jpg

Bowtie
01-29-2011, 09:57
Ahhhh, the good OL days..

woodrowNC
01-29-2011, 10:04
Ahhhh, the good OL days..

yeah, i'm sorry i missed that. girls, cars and guns. is there anything else?

Hokie1911
01-29-2011, 10:18
yeah, i'm sorry i missed that. girls, cars and guns. is there anything else?

Beer?

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 10:27
Beer?

You get a two-fer with the Bavarian beer babes...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Babes%20and%20Bras/Beerfest.jpg

"We like Sigs"

Bowtie
01-29-2011, 10:29
You get a two-fer with the Bavarian beer babes...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Babes%20and%20Bras/Beerfest.jpg

"We like Sigs"


That Blonde is amazing..

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 10:37
That Blonde is amazing..

Yer tellin' me...

So's this one.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Babes%20and%20Bras/BlondeBlueEyes.jpg

Hokie1911
01-29-2011, 10:43
You get a two-fer with the Bavarian beer babes...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Babes%20and%20Bras/Beerfest.jpg

"We like Sigs"


Red hair, and a 1911 in her other hand and she would be the perfect woman. :supergrin:

Bowtie
01-29-2011, 11:15
Yer tellin' me...

So's this one.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Babes%20and%20Bras/BlondeBlueEyes.jpg

Yep, she sure is..I knew that pic would still be in your pc.

woodrowNC
01-29-2011, 11:37
Yep, she sure is..I knew that pic would still be in your pc.

we never really got the original question answered, but somehow this last page has turned this into a really great thread!

faawrenchbndr
01-29-2011, 13:15
Ya gotta love the Sachsenhausen beer wenches!

Bowtie
01-29-2011, 13:58
we never really got the original question answered, but somehow this last page has turned this into a really great thread!

With the right mix of people, a good thread can go on for ever and cover just about every topic..

2TheRange
01-29-2011, 14:06
like i said, i've thought about that, but as far as terminal ballistics, i'm confident it would do the job. and at 17 dollars for 50, it's tempting, compared to a dollar a round of highend sd ammo.

thanks for the opinions.

I don't doubt FMJ's would do the job, but I don't see the cost of ammo as a factor in the decision. I doubt anyone in this country is involved in a gun battle often enough to impact their checkbook. :rofl:

But to answer your question, I would be comfortable carrying FMJ's but choose to carry JHP's. Once you spent enough on ammo to make sure your gun works well with this ammo then the cost factor should be minimal.

faawrenchbndr
01-29-2011, 14:23
Ball ammo would do the job,......if you only take head shots.
Anywhere else,........I would not bet MY life on it getting the job done.





Anyone been fishing for Sailfish? Going out on my first trip a day before
my Daughter's 21st B'day.

2TheRange
01-29-2011, 14:37
Anyone been fishing for Sailfish? Going out on my first trip a day before
my Daughter's 21st B'day.

I have. Caught one about eight feet long in Ixtapa Mexico. I let it go so we didn't bring it on the boat to measure. It was a full day of absolute boredom followed by an adrenaline rush that lasted into the evening.

There were six people that signed up to fish in the boat. After lunch everyone else started drinking beer and when it got hot they all fell asleep in the shade. Then after it appeared it was going to be a very expensive boat ride the fish hit. It fought jumped out of the water several times and almost pulled my arms off. Incredible experience.

Good luck, or as in my case don't drink too much and lose track of the hunt. :cool:

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 15:54
Yep, she sure is..I knew that pic would still be in your pc.

You have a good memory. Then again... she'd tough to forget. ;)

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 15:58
we never really got the original question answered, but somehow this last page has turned this into a really great thread!

That's what I was explaining to a new member on another thread. Sometimes we get into "family arguments," on ballistics, ammo wars, etc., but in the end, we have fun (except when I got banned for a week for showing a girl in a thong with a Sig 9mm Allround). :faint:

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 16:00
Ball ammo would do the job,......if you only take head shots.
Anywhere else,........I would not bet MY life on it getting the job done.





Anyone been fishing for Sailfish? Going out on my first trip a day before
my Daughter's 21st B'day. I used to go years ago when five of us would charter a boat, captain and first mate for a day. It's a hell of a lot of fun. Make sure your daughter is strapped in! :)

lawdog734
01-29-2011, 16:16
That's what I was explaining to a new member on another thread. Sometimes we get into "family arguments," on ballistics, ammo wars, etc., but in the end, we have fun (except when I got banned for a week for showing a girl in a thong with a Sig 9mm Allround). :faint:

I should start my own forum. When a member did that not only would I not ban them I would give them gold status

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 16:32
I should start my own forum. When a member did that not only would I not ban them I would give them gold status


:rofl:

I guess some folks just don't like pretty girls with nice curves.. :dunno:

lawdog734
01-29-2011, 16:38
:rofl:

I guess some folks just don't like pretty girls with nice curves.. :dunno:

Yeah, knedrgr is like that. :rofl:

SIGShooter
01-29-2011, 16:43
I carry either JHP or FMJ. I doesn't matter to me which one it is. I just need to make sure I do my part and hit what I'm shooting at.

I've read, studied and talked to a lot of different people in the shooting community. I've been told either or will do when in a gunfight. The most important thing in the end, make sure all of your shots count when sending them down range to the target.

That last part is something that was echoed by every person I have talked to.

Hokie1911
01-29-2011, 23:05
I should start my own forum. When a member did that not only would I not ban them I would give them gold status

:rofl:

You, Don, Mark, Brian, and I could be Moderators. :whistling:

woodrowNC
01-29-2011, 23:31
I carry either JHP or FMJ. I doesn't matter to me which one it is. I just need to make sure I do my part and hit what I'm shooting at.

I've read, studied and talked to a lot of different people in the shooting community. I've been told either or will do when in a gunfight. The most important thing in the end, make sure all of your shots count when sending them down range to the target.

That last part is something that was echoed by every person I have talked to.

i agree with you. i can't argue with chuck taylor or clint smith. i just worry about collateral damage. couldn't live with myself after that. not that is's a big issue. i've close the 5000 rds of high end hp sd ammo, and almost as much ball. i just wondered why they thought that.

Cobra64
01-29-2011, 23:58
:rofl:

You, Don, Mark, Brian, and I could be Moderators. :whistling:

I'll drink to that...

<img src="http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/BOOZE%20and%20DRUGS/whisky3kt-vi.gif"><img src="http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/BOOZE%20and%20DRUGS/jack_daniels_whiskey.jpg">













But you left out Alan, Jeff, Andy, and Greg.

<img src="http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/BOOZE%20and%20DRUGS/Doobie.jpg">






:rofl:

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 00:03
Oh ****!

Cobra64
01-30-2011, 00:24
Oh ****!

With the price of cigarettes here, people roll their own.

Streetking
01-30-2011, 00:24
why doesn't everyone carry a 10mm and be done with it. they actually move fast enough to open the HP

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 00:34
With the price of cigarettes here, people roll their own.

LMFAO who you telling, look where i'm from..Everyone here rolls their own..

Cobra64
01-30-2011, 00:35
why doesn't everyone carry a 10mm and be done with it. they actually move fast enough to open the HP

Probably for the same reason the FBI downsized to .40 S&W, and competition shooters don't seen like the caliber.

As for HP petals blooming, perhaps read some of the latest cartridge manufacturer's and FBI stats.

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 00:37
why doesn't everyone carry a 10mm and be done with it. they actually move fast enough to open the HP

Call it what it is.. a .40 long, In that case why not use a .357 sig :whistling:

Cobra64
01-30-2011, 00:38
LMFAO who you telling, look where i'm from..Everyone here rolls their own..

I know. :rofl:

My son and his wife live in San Fran, and my daughter and her husband live in Walnut Creek. Good ****! :supergrin:

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 00:44
I know. :rofl:

My son and his wife live in San Fran, and my daughter and her husband live in Walnut Creek. Good ****! :supergrin:

lol I'm 15 min from walnut Creek..

Cobra64
01-30-2011, 00:52
lol I'm 15 min from walnut Creek..

Cool! My wife and I will be out there late February when our daughter delivers her first child.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Home%20-%20Family/Lake%20James/390269224603_0_ALB.jpg

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 00:56
Cool! My wife and I will be out there late February when our daughter delivers her first child.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Home%20-%20Family/Lake%20James/390269224603_0_ALB.jpg

Let me know and I'll buy you a beer, soda, lunch or whatever..

Cobra64
01-30-2011, 01:23
Let me know and I'll buy you a beer, soda, lunch or whatever..

You're on!

Are you still driving vintage cars?

http://2009-camaro.info/images/1969_camaro.jpg

Hokie1911
01-30-2011, 07:08
But you left out Alan, Jeff, Andy, and Greg.

:rofl:

Totally forgot about Jeff and Andy. Alan will be too busy moderating the Fusion sub-forum....and I just found out Greg has a 21 year old daughter, so we definitely will want him around. :tongueout:

woodrowNC
01-30-2011, 07:15
You're on!

Are you still driving vintage cars?

http://2009-camaro.info/images/1969_camaro.jpg

i'm a ford man, but super nice ride!

faawrenchbndr
01-30-2011, 08:33
Totally forgot about Jeff and Andy. Alan will be too busy moderating the Fusion sub-forum....and I just found out Greg has a 21 year old daughter, so we definitely will want him around. :tongueout:

Hands off buddy! :steamed:

Quack
01-30-2011, 08:54
and Hokie was giving me crap about saying hi to CombatBarbi :animlol:

bac1023
01-30-2011, 09:26
I carry FMJ most of the time in my P3AT backup gun. I trust the function better and I'm not convinced of reliable expansion anyway from such a short barrel.

Bowtie
01-30-2011, 11:24
You're on!

Are you still driving vintage cars?

http://2009-camaro.info/images/1969_camaro.jpg

Yes Sir but they are all tore down for different stages of rebuilds..In other words, I can never leave stuff alone and keep changing my mind on what I want..

So now I'm either in my Truck or 350Z.

bac1023
01-30-2011, 11:30
With the price of cigarettes here, people roll their own.

:rofl:

73JER
01-30-2011, 11:34
I load my back up magazine with ball. Primary has HP.

Quack
01-30-2011, 11:41
With the price of cigarettes here, people roll their own.

yep, there's shops around here that you roll your own. buy the tubes/tobacco and use the places rolling machine.

http://www.silverbulletsllc.com/uploads/4/3/4/5/4345396/8813.jpg

R0CKETMAN
01-30-2011, 12:23
I carry FMJ most of the time in my P3AT backup gun. I trust the function better and I'm not convinced of reliable expansion anyway from such a short barrel.

Powerball?

Hokie1911
01-30-2011, 16:16
I carry FMJ most of the time in my P3AT backup gun. I trust the function better and I'm not convinced of reliable expansion anyway from such a short barrel.

What do you need a backup for? If only one round of .45 ball ammo can blow up a Nazi tank, what to you think it will do to a human? :rofl:

pistolwrench
01-30-2011, 17:07
The pic of the Z28 Camaro needs a gal in a pink bikini lounging on the hood.
OUCH!!! Black hood...mebbe 200F here in AZ. Could fry eggs.

Fine lookin' ride.

Get your wife on the hood in Spring.

Hound_dogs_01
01-30-2011, 17:37
I carry whats reliable in my gun. 200gr SWCL that I cast, size, and lube my self. I load them myself as well.

I have carried some 230gr FMJ.

Look at it this way, .452 is quite large its nearly a half inch. A .45 starts out as big in diameter as a fully expanded 9mm 115gr gold dot. Whats the point for HP's?



Alex

den888
01-30-2011, 22:29
I do and if my 1911 is being used for HD, I use standard Federal or Winchester ball ammo

cole
01-31-2011, 00:25
I prefer, in this order:
1) 230gr .45acp HP
2) 230gr .45acp RN
3) 147gr 9mm HP
4) .45acp HP in any other weight

That's me. I'm fine will 230gr RN if that's what I have, but I have HP. I'm fine with 9mm too, but it's not 230gr and there is no way around that.

RMTactical
01-31-2011, 01:14
I only carry ball when I am in the wilderness...

BGPD
01-31-2011, 08:06
" anybody comfortable carrying ball"

Nope

Way way back when I first started(1975) thats just about all we had. Sure, SPEERs "flying ashtray" hp was there but on $125 a week with a family who could afford to have your stock Colt worked on so it fed them. So we carried FMJ. There was no ballistic data, no internet, no comprehensive tests to fall back on. We just relied on the bullets, training and practice.

But now, we evolve. We grow up. We learn. Would I want a doctor to use 50 year old instruments? No. There are better ones now. Yes a FMJ "might" get the job done. But defensive combat is not a static one on one duel with time to sight in your opponent. What if your moving, what if there are more thn one? You're moving? You miss? That FMJ tends to ricochet off pavement farther than a HP would and still have devastating effects. If your shot hits an extremity and goes through? Whats your background? In the heat of a fight will you even know whats 20yards behinds them?

In my line I carry one extra mag of FMJ. Its for a deliberate purpose, barriers.

Just my opinion.

woodrowNC
01-31-2011, 09:11
personnaly, i think a .452 projectile will get the job done. that wasn't my question. the question was why would these experts deliberately use ball knowing over penetration was a possiblity. clints answere was to eleminate any possibility of a malfunction. 45 ball has ended the life of a great many people. i don't think either of these gentleman worried about the rds performance. great hp advancements had been made in 2001, when clint made this statement.

faawrenchbndr
01-31-2011, 10:42
I got a box in the mail..........................








It had a sweet *** Milt Sparks Versa Max II in it.
Oh how sweet it is! :supergrin:

Quack
01-31-2011, 10:43
Did you have a VMII before?

faawrenchbndr
01-31-2011, 10:52
Did you have a VMII before?

Not for the 1911.........

Hokie1911
01-31-2011, 11:34
I got a box in the mail..........................

It had a sweet *** Milt Sparks Versa Max II in it.
Oh how sweet it is! :supergrin:

:rock::notworthy::woohoo::pepper::dancingbanana:

Hokie1911
01-31-2011, 11:35
Ditching the Occidental?

BGPD
01-31-2011, 12:26
personnaly, i think a .452 projectile will get the job done. that wasn't my question. the question was why would these experts deliberately use ball knowing over penetration was a possiblity. clints answere was to eleminate any possibility of a malfunction. 45 ball has ended the life of a great many people. i don't think either of these gentleman worried about the rds performance. great hp advancements had been made in 2001, when clint made this statement.

And a great many advancements were made prior to 2001. As for "why would they still carry it", either they still don't trust their guns reliability or have never tried anything else or don't want to. You would have to ask them. I failed mind reading 101.:dunno:

faawrenchbndr
01-31-2011, 12:50
Ditching the Occidental?

I actually sold that a while back. A friend loaned me a MS to try for a
few days,.........:faint:

I sold the Brommeland for the Glock as well, have a TT Gunleather for it now.
The Occidental is close to it, but the TT is better.

Hokie1911
01-31-2011, 13:07
I actually sold that a while back. A friend loaned me a MS to try for a
few days,.........:faint:

I sold the Brommeland for the Glock as well, have a TT Gunleather for it now.
The Occidental is close to it, but the TT is better.

Yeah, I had both at the same time, and it was no contest. The Occidental was built very very well, but the Sparks was butta right out of the bag.

Ken Rainey
01-31-2011, 22:43
I chased after the elusive magic bullets for a long time. I read many magazines articles from all of the supposedly "in the know" people - some of which turned out to just be promoters for ammo companies...anyway, somewhere along the way, I read a statement to the effect of "if you want to know how a certain bullet acts upon impact with a human body, ask someone who has seen it" = ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!

During my search for the magic bullet, I assisted in autopsies and watched others, I payed attention to what wounds were made by what caliber and where the bullets went in various emergency room visitors. Later, in another line of work, I talked with other investigators on what they had witnessed in bullet wounds.

All in all, what matters most is where the bullet goes...a marginal hit with a hollow point will zip on thru as would a FMJ...a solid hit with a FMJ will have as terminal effect as a hollow point. Over penetration depends on what the bullet hits before and during it's intended target. A 230 grain FMJ bullet traveling around 830 fps and hitting a bad guy in the upper torso may or may not penetrate and if it does, it will likely be found on the floor or in the first barrier it hits having lost momentum during it's passage thru the person. Remember that a lot of 230 grain hollow point ammo has more velocity and yet may not expand, meaning that it then has more energy to penetrate the torso.

I remember reading that the Remington 185 HP was designed to feed but not necessarily expand much. That supposedly changed when they came out with a 185 +P HP ... and later the Golden Saber line.

Premium Hollow Point ammo (in any caliber, especially if made with law enforcement as it's intended user) is usually made under stricter quality control and therefore should be better built...usually having nickeled cases for better feeding and extraction and flash suppressed powder for maintaining vision in low light. The edge of any hollow point's cavity should help it to catch bone instead of deflecting from it even if it doesn't expand - like a SWC does. I have experienced and read about premium ammo having their problems as well, such as weak cases and bad powder batches, etc.

The standard 230 grain .45 FMJ is a low pressure cartridge and as such usually does not have as bad of a blast or blinding flash in low light as higher pressure cartridges do. Also, it is a heavy bullet and therefore will generally break or crush a bone that it hits instead of being redirected. It is relatively slow to begin with and will loose velocity during it's travel thru a torso sometimes remaining inside the torso especially if thick muscle and heavy bone is struck, adding intermediate barriers such as heavy coats, an arm, a belt, etc. may reduce penetration further.

You can never be sure of exactly what you will need your bullet to do in any given self defense circumstance.

I was taught (and I teach) that hitting the bad guy is of primary concern, next, hitting the bad guy in a vital spot is even more important ... as important as that is, you must also have a bullet that can penetrate enough to hit something vital in order for the shot to be effective. Small caliber bullets like .25s, .32s, and .380s need all the penetration they can get. A standard pressure .38 Special is also a low pressure slow bullet, about the same as a 230 .45 and it's penetrative capability is usually adequate. A .357 magnum is an effective cartridge but has a heck of a blast to deal with. If using a non hollow point or one that doesn't happen to expand, it is very penetrative ... on the other hand, a light .357 that does expand may not penetrate enough. A 115 or 124 grain 9mm FMJ is faster than a .38 special +P and likely to over penetrate, especially if no bones are struck. This is where a hollow point design can be useful. A 147 9mm is more like a .38 +P and even with a FMJ blunt nose would be nothing to bad mouth. I've also heard of the 9mm NATO 124 FMJs tumbling thru bodies and they are designed for penetration - a very desirable thing when shooting at enemy soldiers who may be carrying/wearing all kinds of equipment on their person or hiding behind barriers. Just about any .40 caliber bullet is effective whether HP or not due to it's diameter and weight but it too is a high pressure round. As someone else mentioned, a flat nosed .45 FMJ would be good if it feeds well, the same as a SWC is an effective bullet.

Adequate penetration is required for a bullet to be effective. There is no bullet made that will always penetrate just enough and then stop. There is no hollow point bullet made that will expand every time when shot into a bad guy and then stop inside of them. There will always be variables that affect what any bullet will do.

If a hollow point does expand, it will increase the size of the wound channel as it penetrates...will this make a difference in the time it takes for the shot to be effective? Only if the expanded bullet happens to slice thru a blood vessel which will rapidly aid in the bad guy loosing circulation to the brain. The fact that there is a hole where it's not suppose to be and where that hole is will be the major factor in incapacitating a bad guy.

Over penetration concerns came about from smaller diameter, higher velocity cartridges such as the 9mm FMJ or .38 super FMJ and has been mistakenly carried over to the .45 FMJ. Let us remember that the whole blame for failure to stop a threat during the FBI's 1986 Miami shootout was because a 115 grain 9mm hollow point (SilverTip) DID expand and lacked enough penetration to hit the heart of the bad guy from that particular shot's bullet path - if that bullet had been a FMJ or a heavier bullet it would have penetrated enough to puncture the heart putting a hole where it would be most effective with that particular shot...you just never know.

Also, I note that some people want lighter faster bullets as the barrel of their .45 auto pistol gets shorter to hopefully increase the opportunity for bullet expansion. I propose that is a trade off that needs to be determined if it is worth it or not. Using a lighter and/or faster bullet in hopes of expansion means more blast and recoil trying to get it up to speed where it might expand. If it doesn't expand it will have better penetration but all at the cost of more blast and recoil with a smaller pistol. A 230 FMJ traveling around 700 fps or so will be that much more less likely to over penetrate a torso due to the lower velocity but still have the design and weight to hopefully penetrate enough, all with standard pressure blast and recoil...it's what I use in my .45 short stroker. Using the same ammo that you practice with is also a benefit of the .45 FMJ ammo.

I said most of the above in support of the following answer to woodrowNC's original inquiry....

So, while HP bullets can be good to have, they are not the be all, end all of defensive ammunition. Clint Smith knows that the most important thing when using a handgun for protection is that it functions. A 1911 style pistol is his preferred bullet launcher. A 1911 style pistol was/is designed to function best with a FMJ bullet. A 230 grain .45 FMJ bullet is a proven fight stopper. Putting those bullets where they need to be is the determing factor in how fast they stop that fight. A well made 1911 style pistol can put those bullets where they need to be quickly and accurately.

Yes, I use 230 grain FMJ ammo in some of my .45s and I am as confident in it stopping the fight as I am my premium hollow point ammo. Placement and adequate penetration are the key factors of bullet effectiveness. :patriot:

woodrowNC
02-01-2011, 03:33
I chased after the elusive magic bullets for a long time. I read many magazines articles from all of the supposedly "in the know" people - some of which turned out to just be promoters for ammo companies...anyway, somewhere along the way, I read a statement to the effect of "if you want to know how a certain bullet acts upon impact with a human body, ask someone who has seen it" = ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!

During my search for the magic bullet, I assisted in autopsies and watched others, I payed attention to what wounds were made by what caliber and where the bullets went in various emergency room visitors. Later, in another line of work, I talked with other investigators on what they had witnessed in bullet wounds.

All in all, what matters most is where the bullet goes...a marginal hit with a hollow point will zip on thru as would a FMJ...a solid hit with a FMJ will have as terminal effect as a hollow point. Over penetration depends on what the bullet hits before and during it's intended target. A 230 grain FMJ bullet traveling around 830 fps and hitting a bad guy in the upper torso may or may not penetrate and if it does, it will likely be found on the floor or in the first barrier it hits having lost momentum during it's passage thru the person. Remember that a lot of 230 grain hollow point ammo has more velocity and yet may not expand, meaning that it then has more energy to penetrate the torso.

I remember reading that the Remington 185 HP was designed to feed but not necessarily expand much. That supposedly changed when they came out with a 185 +P HP ... and later the Golden Saber line.

Premium Hollow Point ammo (in any caliber, especially if made with law enforcement as it's intended user) is usually made under stricter quality control and therefore should be better built...usually having nickeled cases for better feeding and extraction and flash suppressed powder for maintaining vision in low light. The edge of any hollow point's cavity should help it to catch bone instead of deflecting from it even if it doesn't expand - like a SWC does. I have experienced and read about premium ammo having their problems as well, such as weak cases and bad powder batches, etc.

The standard 230 grain .45 FMJ is a low pressure cartridge and as such usually does not have as bad of a blast or blinding flash in low light as higher pressure cartridges do. Also, it is a heavy bullet and therefore will generally break or crush a bone that it hits instead of being redirected. It is relatively slow to begin with and will loose velocity during it's travel thru a torso sometimes remaining inside the torso especially if thick muscle and heavy bone is struck, adding intermediate barriers such as heavy coats, an arm, a belt, etc. may reduce penetration further.

You can never be sure of exactly what you will need your bullet to do in any given self defense circumstance.

I was taught (and I teach) that hitting the bad guy is of primary concern, next, hitting the bad guy in a vital spot is even more important ... as important as that is, you must also have a bullet that can penetrate enough to hit something vital in order for the shot to be effective. Small caliber bullets like .25s, .32s, and .380s need all the penetration they can get. A standard pressure .38 Special is also a low pressure slow bullet, about the same as a 230 .45 and it's penetrative capability is usually adequate. A .357 magnum is an effective cartridge but has a heck of a blast to deal with. If using a non hollow point or one that doesn't happen to expand, it is very penetrative ... on the other hand, a light .357 that does expand may not penetrate enough. A 115 or 124 grain 9mm FMJ is faster than a .38 special +P and likely to over penetrate, especially if no bones are struck. This is where a hollow point design can be useful. A 147 9mm is more like a .38 +P and even with a FMJ blunt nose would be nothing to bad mouth. I've also heard of the 9mm NATO 124 FMJs tumbling thru bodies and they are designed for penetration - a very desirable thing when shooting at enemy soldiers who may be carrying/wearing all kinds of equipment on their person or hiding behind barriers. Just about any .40 caliber bullet is effective whether HP or not due to it's diameter and weight but it too is a high pressure round. As someone else mentioned, a flat nosed .45 FMJ would be good if it feeds well, the same as a SWC is an effective bullet.

Adequate penetration is required for a bullet to be effective. There is no bullet made that will always penetrate just enough and then stop. There is no hollow point bullet made that will expand every time when shot into a bad guy and then stop inside of them. There will always be variables that affect what any bullet will do.

If a hollow point does expand, it will increase the size of the wound channel as it penetrates...will this make a difference in the time it takes for the shot to be effective? Only if the expanded bullet happens to slice thru a blood vessel which will rapidly aid in the bad guy loosing circulation to the brain. The fact that there is a hole where it's not suppose to be and where that hole is will be the major factor in incapacitating a bad guy.

Over penetration concerns came about from smaller diameter, higher velocity cartridges such as the 9mm FMJ or .38 super FMJ and has been mistakenly carried over to the .45 FMJ. Let us remember that the whole blame for failure to stop a threat during the FBI's 1986 Miami shootout was because a 115 grain 9mm hollow point (SilverTip) DID expand and lacked enough penetration to hit the heart of the bad guy from that particular shot's bullet path - if that bullet had been a FMJ or a heavier bullet it would have penetrated enough to puncture the heart putting a hole where it would be most effective with that particular shot...you just never know.

Also, I note that some people want lighter faster bullets as the barrel of their .45 auto pistol gets shorter to hopefully increase the opportunity for bullet expansion. I propose that is a trade off that needs to be determined if it is worth it or not. Using a lighter and/or faster bullet in hopes of expansion means more blast and recoil trying to get it up to speed where it might expand. If it doesn't expand it will have better penetration but all at the cost of more blast and recoil with a smaller pistol. A 230 FMJ traveling around 700 fps or so will be that much more less likely to over penetrate a torso due to the lower velocity but still have the design and weight to hopefully penetrate enough, all with standard pressure blast and recoil...it's what I use in my .45 short stroker. Using the same ammo that you practice with is also a benefit of the .45 FMJ ammo.

I said most of the above in support of the following answer to woodrowNC's original inquiry....

So, while HP bullets can be good to have, they are not the be all, end all of defensive ammunition. Clint Smith knows that the most important thing when using a handgun for protection is that it functions. A 1911 style pistol is his preferred bullet launcher. A 1911 style pistol was/is designed to function best with a FMJ bullet. A 230 grain .45 FMJ bullet is a proven fight stopper. Putting those bullets where they need to be is the determing factor in how fast they stop that fight. A well made 1911 style pistol can put those bullets where they need to be quickly and accurately.

Yes, I use 230 grain FMJ ammo in some of my .45s and I am as confident in it stopping the fight as I am my premium hollow point ammo. Placement and adequate penetration are the key factors of bullet effectiveness. :patriot:

good post, ken. i reload 200gr lswc at 700 to practice trigger control. change out to a 12pd recoil spring and it's a good load. maybe some fmj's at 750 is the answere. i practice alot with speer lawman fmj and they list at 890. that worries me now a little. thanks.

Ken Rainey
02-01-2011, 11:48
Yep, I like a 200 grain LSWC bullet also ... last ones I loaded were over 4.5 grains of Bullseye, I don't know the exact velocity but I'm comfortable with it. I also like the 230 grain LRN bullets for the extra feed reliability and the last of those I loaded got 4.6 grains under them, again, I don't know the velocity but it shoots good. I'm thinking 4.5 grains for either one would make some good all purpose loads. 750 fps at the least but closer to 800 is what I would prefer - you just never know exactly how much of what you'll need...:dunno:

gpo1956
02-01-2011, 12:17
I've carried 230 gr ball in the past, and have no reservations whatsoever about using it in the future.

quantico
02-02-2011, 20:25
My only concern with ball is over penetration.

I would agree that overpenetration would be a major concern. Plus there are just so many better choices.

GeorgiaRedfish
02-02-2011, 20:29
I like to carry a mag of Hollow points in the gun, and I sometimes carry ball in the spare just in case I need some bullets to go through something before the BG.

Nickpisp
02-02-2011, 20:39
I like to carry a mag of Hollow points in the gun, and I sometimes carry ball in the spare just in case I need some bullets to go through something before the BG.

I load my mags with alternating HP and ball. If I don't want the round to go through the BG I fire the ball up in the air and use the HP on him.

PhotoFeller
02-02-2011, 20:52
I chased after the elusive magic bullets for a long time. I read many magazines articles from all of the supposedly "in the know" people - some of which turned out to just be promoters for ammo companies...anyway, somewhere along the way, I read a statement to the effect of "if you want to know how a certain bullet acts upon impact with a human body, ask someone who has seen it" = ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!

During my search for the magic bullet, I assisted in autopsies and watched others, I payed attention to what wounds were made by what caliber and where the bullets went in various emergency room visitors. Later, in another line of work, I talked with other investigators on what they had witnessed in bullet wounds.

All in all, what matters most is where the bullet goes...a marginal hit with a hollow point will zip on thru as would a FMJ...a solid hit with a FMJ will have as terminal effect as a hollow point. Over penetration depends on what the bullet hits before and during it's intended target. A 230 grain FMJ bullet traveling around 830 fps and hitting a bad guy in the upper torso may or may not penetrate and if it does, it will likely be found on the floor or in the first barrier it hits having lost momentum during it's passage thru the person. Remember that a lot of 230 grain hollow point ammo has more velocity and yet may not expand, meaning that it then has more energy to penetrate the torso.

I remember reading that the Remington 185 HP was designed to feed but not necessarily expand much. That supposedly changed when they came out with a 185 +P HP ... and later the Golden Saber line.

Premium Hollow Point ammo (in any caliber, especially if made with law enforcement as it's intended user) is usually made under stricter quality control and therefore should be better built...usually having nickeled cases for better feeding and extraction and flash suppressed powder for maintaining vision in low light. The edge of any hollow point's cavity should help it to catch bone instead of deflecting from it even if it doesn't expand - like a SWC does. I have experienced and read about premium ammo having their problems as well, such as weak cases and bad powder batches, etc.

The standard 230 grain .45 FMJ is a low pressure cartridge and as such usually does not have as bad of a blast or blinding flash in low light as higher pressure cartridges do. Also, it is a heavy bullet and therefore will generally break or crush a bone that it hits instead of being redirected. It is relatively slow to begin with and will loose velocity during it's travel thru a torso sometimes remaining inside the torso especially if thick muscle and heavy bone is struck, adding intermediate barriers such as heavy coats, an arm, a belt, etc. may reduce penetration further.

You can never be sure of exactly what you will need your bullet to do in any given self defense circumstance.

I was taught (and I teach) that hitting the bad guy is of primary concern, next, hitting the bad guy in a vital spot is even more important ... as important as that is, you must also have a bullet that can penetrate enough to hit something vital in order for the shot to be effective. Small caliber bullets like .25s, .32s, and .380s need all the penetration they can get. A standard pressure .38 Special is also a low pressure slow bullet, about the same as a 230 .45 and it's penetrative capability is usually adequate. A .357 magnum is an effective cartridge but has a heck of a blast to deal with. If using a non hollow point or one that doesn't happen to expand, it is very penetrative ... on the other hand, a light .357 that does expand may not penetrate enough. A 115 or 124 grain 9mm FMJ is faster than a .38 special +P and likely to over penetrate, especially if no bones are struck. This is where a hollow point design can be useful. A 147 9mm is more like a .38 +P and even with a FMJ blunt nose would be nothing to bad mouth. I've also heard of the 9mm NATO 124 FMJs tumbling thru bodies and they are designed for penetration - a very desirable thing when shooting at enemy soldiers who may be carrying/wearing all kinds of equipment on their person or hiding behind barriers. Just about any .40 caliber bullet is effective whether HP or not due to it's diameter and weight but it too is a high pressure round. As someone else mentioned, a flat nosed .45 FMJ would be good if it feeds well, the same as a SWC is an effective bullet.

Adequate penetration is required for a bullet to be effective. There is no bullet made that will always penetrate just enough and then stop. There is no hollow point bullet made that will expand every time when shot into a bad guy and then stop inside of them. There will always be variables that affect what any bullet will do.

If a hollow point does expand, it will increase the size of the wound channel as it penetrates...will this make a difference in the time it takes for the shot to be effective? Only if the expanded bullet happens to slice thru a blood vessel which will rapidly aid in the bad guy loosing circulation to the brain. The fact that there is a hole where it's not suppose to be and where that hole is will be the major factor in incapacitating a bad guy.

Over penetration concerns came about from smaller diameter, higher velocity cartridges such as the 9mm FMJ or .38 super FMJ and has been mistakenly carried over to the .45 FMJ. Let us remember that the whole blame for failure to stop a threat during the FBI's 1986 Miami shootout was because a 115 grain 9mm hollow point (SilverTip) DID expand and lacked enough penetration to hit the heart of the bad guy from that particular shot's bullet path - if that bullet had been a FMJ or a heavier bullet it would have penetrated enough to puncture the heart putting a hole where it would be most effective with that particular shot...you just never know.

Also, I note that some people want lighter faster bullets as the barrel of their .45 auto pistol gets shorter to hopefully increase the opportunity for bullet expansion. I propose that is a trade off that needs to be determined if it is worth it or not. Using a lighter and/or faster bullet in hopes of expansion means more blast and recoil trying to get it up to speed where it might expand. If it doesn't expand it will have better penetration but all at the cost of more blast and recoil with a smaller pistol. A 230 FMJ traveling around 700 fps or so will be that much more less likely to over penetrate a torso due to the lower velocity but still have the design and weight to hopefully penetrate enough, all with standard pressure blast and recoil...it's what I use in my .45 short stroker. Using the same ammo that you practice with is also a benefit of the .45 FMJ ammo.

I said most of the above in support of the following answer to woodrowNC's original inquiry....

So, while HP bullets can be good to have, they are not the be all, end all of defensive ammunition. Clint Smith knows that the most important thing when using a handgun for protection is that it functions. A 1911 style pistol is his preferred bullet launcher. A 1911 style pistol was/is designed to function best with a FMJ bullet. A 230 grain .45 FMJ bullet is a proven fight stopper. Putting those bullets where they need to be is the determing factor in how fast they stop that fight. A well made 1911 style pistol can put those bullets where they need to be quickly and accurately.

Yes, I use 230 grain FMJ ammo in some of my .45s and I am as confident in it stopping the fight as I am my premium hollow point ammo. Placement and adequate penetration are the key factors of bullet effectiveness. :patriot:

It's mighty refreshing to read a well written piece with real educational value and without the hype we read so much today regarding JHP. Thanks.

With regard to FMJ flat nose bullets, what is your experience with reliability to feed?

Do you recommend JHP for 9mm?

Thanks again for a good read.

Ken Rainey
02-02-2011, 23:04
Thank You for those kind words PhotoFeller, I haven't had the opportunity to fire any flat nosed .45 FMJs, I remember reading about and pricing some but they were as high or higher than JHPs so I never persued them. As to their feed reliability, that would depend on the individual pistol but I would expect them to be able to feed as good as a SWC as long as the nose was rounded to the flat point instead of angled as a truncated cone design. I wish some company would sell some at the same price as round nosed FMJs. That is one trait of the .40 FMJ that I do like - why they make those that way and won't the .45 I don't know but I expect it's just because the .45 ball is traditional and they are more concerned with their JHPs for an alternate bullet profile - market/perception driven I expect.

Yep, a JHP in a 9mm (presuming it will feed them reliably) for it's potential cutting/grasping shoulder even if it doesn't expand, especially in 115 or preferably the 124 grain. In 147 grain, I'd recommend a JHP but if all I had was one of the flat nosed FMJs I'd use them. I prefer the 147 grain bullets for their weight but have found that most of my 9s fire the 124 closer to point of aim especially at distances greater than 15 yards. Since the likelihood of a defensive confrontation being greater than 15 yards is slim, I presently use the Ranger 147 T in my 9 with a backup mag of 147 or 124 FMJs. I will use particular 115s or 124s (JHPs and FMJs) when shooting a 9mm for accuracy and would feel confident to use some of the 124s for defensive use. I'm not trying to short change the 115s, but a heavier bullet is a heavier bullet.

GVFlyer
02-02-2011, 23:18
Ball worked effectively for me in the military, so I often use it in my carry weapon for the increased likelihood that I'll be able to get a second round off. It's all I use in my alloy framed 1911s except for the ones that have a ramped barrel.

TSAX
02-02-2011, 23:46
There is some good reading hear. FMJ feed better in my Kimber than the HP. I understand the over penetration argument but sometimes having a round that will feed consistently is important too. After a pro polished the feed ramp my HP was fine. I prefer to carry HP.

GVFlyer
02-03-2011, 00:29
I load my mags with alternating HP and ball. If I don't want the round to go through the BG I fire the ball up in the air and use the HP on him.

How many BGs have you shot using that technique and what was the outcome?

woodrowNC
02-03-2011, 05:54
most of my 1911's feed gold dot and golden saber because they have been throated and polished. but i've one gm that feeds golden saber 95% of the time, not throated and polished, which is not good enough. it's a beautiful gun that's for range use only, but if i just happen to have it with me, well it gonna have ball in it. i've got one at colts cs getting redone that's gonna be beautiful and it getting throated and polished so i can fall back on that. same thing for a gi at sacs that looks like it has no throat at all, but if feeds golden saber. i don't think terminal ballistics is the question here as i think clint smith is pretty knowledgeable in that regard. but i don't want to save mine or a family members life only to be sued for a quarter mil.

Nickpisp
02-03-2011, 07:57
How many BGs have you shot using that technique and what was the outcome?

Outcome wasn't good, I was dual-wielding and lost track of my alternating count.

woodrowNC
02-03-2011, 08:46
Outcome wasn't good, I was dual-wielding and lost track of my alternating count.

:rofl:

Ken Rainey
02-03-2011, 11:37
Originally Posted by Nickpisp
"I load my mags with alternating HP and ball. If I don't want the round to go through the BG I fire the ball up in the air and use the HP on him."

I presume (hope) that post was made in jest ... that round of ball you fired up in the air has to land somewhere...:shocked:

Nickpisp
02-03-2011, 12:49
Originally Posted by Nickpisp
"I load my mags with alternating HP and ball. If I don't want the round to go through the BG I fire the ball up in the air and use the HP on him."

I presume (hope) that post was made in jest ... that round of ball you fired up in the air has to land somewhere...:shocked:


I assume it probably hits the moon.

sargespd
02-04-2011, 10:36
Ball ammo has put alot of people in the ground for alot of years..

So has the .22lr but I'm not trusting my life with it..

MD357
02-04-2011, 10:38
So has the .22lr but I'm not trusting my life with it..

Exactly. Killing someone and stopping them are two different things.

kyletx1911a1
02-04-2011, 21:56
i edc only 230 hard ball

Bowtie
02-04-2011, 22:26
I load my mags with alternating HP and ball. If I don't want the round to go through the BG I fire the ball up in the air and use the HP on him.

God I hope you're joking..