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Cameraguy
01-29-2011, 19:42
I hate to appear stupid, but having no experience with 1911s, I'm wondering:

Why is a 1911 considered safe when carried this way as opposed to a DAO semi-auto or a DA/DAO revolver?

From what little I've been able to read, it seems that it has something to do with a sear. What is a sear and its purpose?

It seems to me that you are carrying a SA semi-auto with a very light trigger pull that it could be easily fired when not meant to.

If someone could explain this to me or direct me to some further information, I would appreciate it.

Navitimer
01-29-2011, 19:49
Hey man, no worries with asking any questions. With a 1911 in condition 1 (i.e., round in chamber, safety on), some would argue that you're being "safer" than with say, a Glock, carrying with one in the chamber. I alternate between Glocks and my 1911s and have no problem carrying "cocked & locked." I never carry concealed (or otherwise) unless the trigger is fully protected in a holster, so I have comfort that nothing can touch the trigger. In addition, the safety is on, and on top of that, the grip safety must still be disengaged before the 1911 will fire. I hear you on the fact that some could argue a double action revolver may seem safer, due to the weight in trigger pull. It's really all about what you get used to and works for you. I think a lot of folks get freaked out by cocked/locked 1911s cause they look a little scary with the hammer back, but I've never had any serious concerns (other than my normal caution when carrying) with a 1911. Plus, it's been around for 100 years now! Hope this helps!

MD357
01-29-2011, 19:52
It's considered "safe" due to the fact that there's a thumbsafety and grip safety. If you need specifics on how they work then start playing around with this to get an idea.

http://www.m1911.org/STI1911animation2.htm

lawdog734
01-29-2011, 19:52
My sig only has to have the trigger pulled for it to go bang. My 1911 has to have the thumb safety on the slide disengaged, the beaver tail safety on the rear grip has to be pushed in, and the trigger has to be pressed. Yes the 1911 has a lighter trigger pull but in my opinion it is safer.

Pima Pants
01-29-2011, 20:07
It just looks scary because the evil hammer is visible. Glock: pull trigger and it goes "bang". 1911: Disengage thumb safety, disengage grip safety then pull trigger and it goes "bang". Hmmm...which is safer?

rsxr22
01-29-2011, 20:20
not a stupid question at all cameraguy!

Everyone has to learn somewhere and you definitely chose the right place to get your info. Responses so far have been spot on. Like before said, There is a thumb safety inbetween you pulling the trigger and the gun going bang that must be disengaged first in order to fire. You must designate some time to training if you are unfamiliar with the 1911 platform, but they are awesome and addicting because of its ergonomics and crisp trigger which you will quickly find out

Ruggles
01-29-2011, 20:26
Just to add I would say that a DA revolver is more forgiving of poor gun handling than a 1911 overall but that does not make the 1911 unsafe to carry C&L. I agree the Glock would worry me more than the 1911 being carried all things being equal. Not that the Glock is unsafe, just that less has to "accidentally" occur for the gun to discharge overall.

I actually takes quite a bit for a 1911 to discharge. A 1911 C&L is a 100 year design and does not have a reputation as a unsafe firearm. I would think that after 100 years if it was the reputation would be there.

jtull7
01-29-2011, 20:52
Give me break.

bac1023
01-29-2011, 20:57
I think a cocked and locked 1911 is one of the safest handguns you can carry.

Ruggles
01-29-2011, 21:07
I think a cocked and locked 1911 is one of the safest handguns you can carry.

I would agree.

I would say the HK P7 would be the absolute safest.

bac1023
01-29-2011, 21:20
I would agree.

I would say the HK P7 would be the absolute safest.

I never carried mine, but it is a very safe design.

Ruggles
01-29-2011, 21:38
I never carried mine, but it is a very safe design.

I tried to carry mine but the balance of it was never right for me. I love the design but it is just not a good carry gun for me. I really think it would be very difficult to have a ND/AD with a P7.

bac1023
01-29-2011, 22:20
I really think it would be very difficult to have a ND/AD with a P7.

It certainly would.

woodrowNC
01-30-2011, 00:34
condition 1 is the only way to go.

Geeorge
01-30-2011, 03:55
Give me break.

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww295/geeorge1/imagesCAYCJ3N6.jpg

ajstrider
01-30-2011, 05:14
Well no one has mentioned accidentally dropping of the gun and how safe that is, until now! It wasn't until the early 1980's that 1911 received a firing pin blocking mechanism to prevent accidental discharge when dropped. Before this was added, you could feasibly drop the gun, and if the internals are jarred hard enough, sear disengages and the hammer falls forward, discharging the gun. Different companies now add their firing pin blocks in different ways, a lot are attached to the trigger, thus changing the smooth trigger pull sometimes. This is why a lot of people are fond of the older 1911's, they can mechanically have a smoother functioning trigger. Just for thought, Glocks have the same type of firing pin block connected to their trigger, thus the claim that a Glock can only be fired when the trigger is pulled. Revolvers have had to go through the same update too, newer revolvers have a transfer bar safety as they call it. Older revolvers often had a half-cock position, where the hammer is pulled back just a bit, so it not making contact with firing pin or shell if firing pin was connected to hammer. This would prevent the gun from firing if the hammer was hit hard enough while it made contact with the shell, and also the sear was not fully engaged so dropping it would have no effect on the hammer dropping. I hope this makes sense, but dropping of a gun must also be considered when referring to safety.

R*E
01-30-2011, 05:47
Second post in this thread has a drawing of the thumb safety blocking sear movement.

http://forum.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=64919

Direct link to drawing.

http://forum.1911forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10787&d=1070218132

R0CKETMAN
01-30-2011, 06:29
I agree the Glock would worry me more than the 1911 being carried all things being equal. Not that the Glock is unsafe, just that less has to "accidentally" occur for the gun to discharge overall.




You do not have an understanding on how a Glock works.

TheJ
01-30-2011, 07:34
You do not have an understanding on how a Glock works.

I'm not certain of that from his post. I suspect he may be just confusing "accidental" and "negligent" discharge, no? Some see Glock as somewhat less forgiving of negligence even after they understand how it actually works.

Jim S.
01-30-2011, 08:55
Well no one has mentioned accidentally dropping of the gun and how safe that is, until now! It wasn't until the early 1980's that 1911 received a firing pin blocking mechanism to prevent accidental discharge when dropped. Before this was added, you could feasibly drop the gun, and if the internals are jarred hard enough, sear disengages and the hammer falls forward, discharging the gun.

This is not as easy to do as you may think.
First of all they have done quite a bit of testing on this and it is usually found that it takes a unrealistic height to make a 1911 discharge.
Certainly not from the height of your hand or holster.
It would also require a major malfunction in the thumb safety if it is on like it should be.
Grip safety too.
Parts need to break to give the sear clearance to move and then allow the gun to fire.
All in all in is unlikely to occur in a normal dropping of the gun.
The firing pin block systems were put in to satisfy the liability lawyers and states such as California who want to put unrealistic restrictions on guns.

BuckyP
01-30-2011, 09:17
You do not have an understanding on how a Glock works.


I know they are not really related, but your comment + your avatar made me :rofl:

BuckyP
01-30-2011, 09:30
Well no one has mentioned accidentally dropping of the gun and how safe that is, until now! It wasn't until the early 1980's that 1911 received a firing pin blocking mechanism to prevent accidental discharge when dropped. Before this was added, you could feasibly drop the gun, and if the internals are jarred hard enough, sear disengages and the hammer falls forward, discharging the gun.


Actually, it would be more likely if the gun fell on the muzzle, there would be enough inertia to drive the firing pin forward. If the sear were to break, it is likely that the half cock notch would still catch the hammer. This of course means a properly functioning 1911. Note you should not be able to pull the trigger from half cock and have the hammer fall forward.


Different companies now add their firing pin blocks in different ways, a lot are attached to the trigger, thus changing the smooth trigger pull sometimes. This is why a lot of people are fond of the older 1911's, they can mechanically have a smoother functioning trigger.


There are a lot of modern 1911s that don't have firing pin safeties. Most of the higher ends don't, Springfields don't, and even companies that do sometimes offer models that don't (Kimber SIS, Smith and Wesson Enhanced series{from what I've read}). They deal with the above issue by using a titanium (light weight) firing pin and heavier firing pin spring. The Ed Brown Kobra Carry, for example, passed the CA drop test without any firing pin safety.


Just for thought, Glocks have the same type of firing pin block connected to their trigger, thus the claim that a Glock can only be fired when the trigger is pulled.


True, as do most modern designed semi auto pistols (that is not based on an older design like the BHP, 1911, CZ). Sig, XD, HK, Beretta, etc, all have this. GLOCK actually had to deal with other considerations when dealing with dropping the gun, hence the drop safety and trigger safety.


Revolvers have had to go through the same update too, newer revolvers have a transfer bar safety as they call it. Older revolvers often had a half-cock position, where the hammer is pulled back just a bit, so it not making contact with firing pin or shell if firing pin was connected to hammer. This would prevent the gun from firing if the hammer was hit hard enough while it made contact with the shell, and also the sear was not fully engaged so dropping it would have no effect on the hammer dropping. I hope this makes sense, but dropping of a gun must also be considered when referring to safety.


"Modern" DA revolvers have had this for a long time (100 years?). Not all are transfer bars, some block the firing pin, some block the hammer, but all server the same purpose.

bac1023
01-30-2011, 09:32
I know they are not really related, but your comment + your avatar made me :rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 10:00
It's considered "safe" due to the fact that there's a thumbsafety and grip safety. ]


It was not however designed to be carried that way.


From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



This a great reference book for any 1911 fan or collector but they are long out of print and cost as much as an emery level 1911 these days!!

Jim S.
01-30-2011, 11:34
It was not however designed to be carried that way.

That may be true when soldiers rode horses, but it certainly wasn't the case when I carried one.
I'm not talking rear echelon carry but in a combat zone or where we were unsure of the situation.
Everyone I was with carried cocked and locked.
It was the accepted practice and if it wasn't, no one ever had anything to say about it.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 11:44
Just carry it cocked and locked and don't worry about. Practice draw, disengage, and trigger pull at home.

bac1023
01-30-2011, 11:55
Just carry it cocked and locked and don't worry about. Practice draw, disengage, and trigger pull at home.

I find it a very natural motion.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 12:08
I find it a very natural motion.
I wouldn't carry one if it wasn't.

MD357
01-30-2011, 12:21
It was not however designed to be carried that way.


From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



This a great reference book for any 1911 fan or collector but they are long out of print and cost as much as an emery level 1911 these days!!

That's neat and all but it doesn't really have much relevance to what I said. :cool:

bac1023
01-30-2011, 12:23
I wouldn't carry one if it wasn't.

Of course not. :cool:

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 12:43
Everyone I was with carried cocked and locked.
It was the accepted practice and if it wasn't, no one ever had anything to say about it.

While it may have been accepted practice, JMB did not design the weapon to be carried that way.

R0CKETMAN
01-30-2011, 13:17
It was not however designed to be carried that way.


From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



This a great reference book for any 1911 fan or collector but they are long out of print and cost as much as an emery level 1911 these days!!

You are confusing the designer's intent with Army protocol.

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 13:23
I'll stick with JMB's design and intent on this one, no cocked & locked carry for me. Y'all are free to do whatever you want.

MD357
01-30-2011, 13:27
I'll stick with JMB's design and intent on this one.

Good to know your opinion. To put things in perspective, you're also the guy that has touted Taurus' lock on their 1911s as being handy for your needs. :whistling:

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 13:35
Good to know your opinion. To put things in perspective, you're also the guy that has touted Taurus' lock on their 1911s as being handy for your needs. :whistling:
:rofl::rofl:

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 13:39
It worked well for me at the time for its intended purpose.

furioso2112
01-30-2011, 13:57
Doesn't the Beretta 92 have a firing pin plunger that rotates 90 degress (completely eliminating the possibility that the hammer could strike the plunger or that the plunger could impact the firing pin). Also, they can be carried 'half-cocked' - there is an assist function so that first pull is lightened. They always seemed like the safest gun to carry chambered and on-safety. I am not particularly familiar with the 1911, either - perhaps this is how that mechanism works also, but I'm not sure if it's quite the same. If the block simply prevents the hammer from striking the pin, I'd call taking a link out of the hammer-to firing pin sequence is 'more safe' than putting another piece in there.

I don't intend to say that any gun is usafe, even compared to another, that depends on the operator. I like all the platforms - to me, really, there are differences and preferences. That's about it. So long as you never shoot anything you don't intend to, you could have a safety that functioned by putting a marshmallow in front of the hammer for all I care. I would probably not buy that gun...but that's just my preference.

furioso2112
01-30-2011, 14:06
Just carry it cocked and locked and don't worry about. Practice draw, disengage, and trigger pull at home.

Could also try the 'get used to Glock' method - carry the gun unloaded for a while (carry a loaded gun as well), see if it falls. Not a definitive test by any means, but might set your mind at ease. I read that here re: Glocks - maybe in regards to Clipdraw, not sure. Essentially, carry it however you like for a week or so, unloaded with the firing pin sprung - pull the trigger at the end of the week (follow all gun safety rules, of course - don't look down the barrel while you're doing this or anything else you wouldn't do); if it hasn't reset, then the trigger hasn't been pulled. Again - not a definitive test, but if a person has a mental block on the reasonability of the platform, might be a good way to get over it.

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 14:07
EVERY MODERN FIREARM is safe, unless there is a defect from the factory, don't pull the trigger on guns, and the bullet won't leave the barrel.

nastytrigger
01-30-2011, 14:16
Doesn't the Beretta 92 have a firing pin plunger that rotates 90 degress (completely eliminating the possibility that the hammer could strike the plunger or that the plunger could impact the firing pin). Also, they can be carried 'half-cocked' - there is an assist function so that first pull is lightened. They always seemed like the safest gun to carry chambered and on-safety. I am not particularly familiar with the 1911, either - perhaps this is how that mechanism works also, but I'm not sure if it's quite the same. If the block simply prevents the hammer from striking the pin, I'd call taking a link out of the hammer-to firing pin sequence is 'more safe' than putting another piece in there.

I don't intend to say that any gun is usafe, even compared to another, that depends on the operator. I like all the platforms - to me, really, there are differences and preferences. That's about it. So long as you never shoot anything you don't intend to, you could have a safety that functioned by putting a marshmallow in front of the hammer for all I care. I would probably not buy that gun...but that's just my preference.

I do like the Beretta's slide mounted safety/decocker. The 92FS was my first pistol. Only thing I don't like about the 92 is the DA pull. Since having a 1911, I do like cocked and locked. Glock's are easiest of course, since there's no manual safety. Point and shoot :supergrin:. Just keep finger and other foreign objects out of the trigger area :whistling:.

reminiz
01-30-2011, 15:12
I know they are not really related, but your comment + your avatar made me :rofl:

Wasn't that the guy that shot himself with a Glock in the class room?

bac1023
01-30-2011, 15:50
Wasn't that the guy that shot himself with a Glock in the class room?

Yep :upeyes:

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DmhIJOVD8hwY

R0CKETMAN
01-30-2011, 18:32
Wasn't that the guy that shot himself with a Glock in the class room?

Yep :upeyes:

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DmhIJOVD8hwY

I do not appreciate the tone in your comments directed towards my avatar. It's obvious he's the only one in the room qualified:rofl:

bac1023
01-30-2011, 18:35
Good to know your opinion. To put things in perspective, you're also the guy that has touted Taurus' lock on their 1911s as being handy for your needs. :whistling:

Yeah, which was leaving it in a bag at someone else's house without them knowing.

:faint:

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 19:35
....several houses actually (way to go off topic guys!!)

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 20:09
....several houses actually (way to go off topic guys!!)
Way to be awesome guy!

Misinformation is fun!:whistling:

MD357
01-30-2011, 20:32
....several houses actually (way to go off topic guys!!)

Again, just putting things in perspective on opinion. :cool:

BuckyP
01-30-2011, 20:40
Doesn't the Beretta 92 have a firing pin plunger that rotates 90 degress (completely eliminating the possibility that the hammer could strike the plunger or that the plunger could impact the firing pin).


In addition to rotating the firing pin plunger out of the way, it also pushes the trigger bar out of engagement so that it can not connect to the sear (single action) or hammer (double action). The safety will also safely decock the hammer (if it was cocked). Additionally, the Beretta has a firing pin safety that only unblocks the firing pin if when the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear (and the safety is off). The firing pin block resets when the slide is cycled and the trigger has to be released and pulled again to move the firing pin safety out of the way. This is a major difference from the GLOCK in that the GLOCK holds the firing pin safety out of the way as long as the trigger is rearward.


Also, they can be carried 'half-cocked' - there is an assist function so that first pull is lightened.


It is not recommended to carry this gun on half cock. The half cock notch is a hold over from before Beretta put the firing pin safety in their guns. It serves the same purpose as other such guns with the half cock notch, preventing the hammer from striking the firing pin for various reasons.


They always seemed like the safest gun to carry chambered and on-safety. I am not particularly familiar with the 1911, either - perhaps this is how that mechanism works also, but I'm not sure if it's quite the same. If the block simply prevents the hammer from striking the pin, I'd call taking a link out of the hammer-to firing pin sequence is 'more safe' than putting another piece in there.


I agree, the Beretta, hammer down, safety on, is perhaps the safest method of carry. However, if your thumbs are not long enough (IE mine), it is not as easy to swipe the safety off as one can with a 1911.

FLIPPER 348
01-30-2011, 21:07
Way to be awesome guy!

Misinformation is fun!:whistling:


I'm always awesome. What sort of misinformation are you referring to??

GeorgiaRedfish
01-30-2011, 22:38
I'm always awesome. What sort of misinformation are you referring to??
Sorry its in another thread can't quote it for you.

cole
01-31-2011, 02:14
I hate to appear stupid, but having no experience with 1911s, I'm wondering:

Why is a 1911 considered safe when carried this way as opposed to a DAO semi-auto or a DA/DAO revolver?

From what little I've been able to read, it seems that it has something to do with a sear. What is a sear and its purpose?

It seems to me that you are carrying a SA semi-auto with a very light trigger pull that it could be easily fired when not meant to.

If someone could explain this to me or direct me to some further information, I would appreciate it.

Give a Google search a try for "1911 safety". A total sear failure is so unlikely it is not worth the worry IMO. And, the hammer has two stop notches, and both would have to fail in sequence. Again, very unlikely. Plus, the thumb safety would engage the hammer (from the underside) in the event the sear or the two hammer stop notches both had a total failure. Buy a lotto ticket if you think those odds are high. And, the grip safety keeps the trigger from being pulled back far enough to release the sear. The Series 80 (or Series II) parts are really a "drop-safety" IMO. The manual safeties work well; just as they always have. Once folks understand how the 1911 safeties work worries go away for most:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/hautlipz/1911_cutaway_thumb_safety_blocking_.jpg

Cameraguy
01-31-2011, 04:15
I appreciate all the information and comments provided. I can start to see some of the safeties working. Will be studying it all in more depth later. It has been very helpful.

Nakanokalronin
01-31-2011, 18:56
I appreciate all the information and comments provided. I can start to see some of the safeties working. Will be studying it all in more depth later. It has been very helpful.

Best thing to do to get over the fear of having a round in the chamber. I tried to get this across to someone on the carry section and the thread got closed.

1911Tuner
02-01-2011, 07:54
These cocked and locked discussions are always fun. There's a lotta myth and misconception surrounding the issue.

First...The pistol was neither designed nor was it intended to be carried cocked and locked...by John Browning or anybody else. Browning's first 8 examples that were submitted for evaluation didn't have thumb safeties...so how could it have been his intent?

Second...The addition of the thumb safety wasn't done for the purpose of carrying the gun in C-1. It was done so that a mounted trooper could engage a safety and reholster it in order to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse. Even then, the unenlightened thinkin' heads understood that a man under stress might neglect to get his finger off the trigger before jamming the gun into a holster. That's a point that Gaston Glock chose to ignore.

Third...If Browning had any intent at all, it was to use the half-cock notch as a safe carry mode, since that's how he designed all his other hammer guns. And before the howls go up...the half-cock is clearly referred to as a "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents...before the manual safety was added. The same patents provide instruction on lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber with one hand. Go look it up.

Fourth...The pistol can be carried safely in Condition Zero. The grip safety is still blocking the trigger and the half-cock is still operational should the hammer get loose from the sear.

Thus, the 1911 pistol was designed to be carried in any of four conditions of readiness, according to need and desire...five if you include half-cock.

It can be carried in Condition One, but it wasn't specifically designed to
be carried in Condition One.

The same can be applied to the other conditions, including half cocked.

FLIPPER 348
02-01-2011, 08:36
These cocked and locked discussions are always fun. There's a lotta myth and misconception surrounding the issue.


It can be carried in Condition One, but it wasn't specifically designed to
be carried in Condition One.

.

Bingo

The Army recommended against.

FLIPPER 348
02-01-2011, 08:39
Sorry its in another thread can't quote it for you.


The sear geometry being changed enough to cause multiple shots with one trigger pull is not misinformation.

PhotoFeller
02-01-2011, 09:05
These cocked and locked discussions are always fun. There's a lotta myth and misconception surrounding the issue.

First...The pistol was neither designed nor was it intended to be carried cocked and locked...by John Browning or anybody else. Browning's first 8 examples that were submitted for evaluation didn't have thumb safeties...so how could it have been his intent?

Second...The addition of the thumb safety wasn't done for the purpose of carrying the gun in C-1. It was done so that a mounted trooper could engage a safety and reholster it in order to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse. Even then, the unenlightened thinkin' heads understood that a man under stress might neglect to get his finger off the trigger before jamming the gun into a holster. That's a point that Gaston Glock chose to ignore.

Third...If Browning had any intent at all, it was to use the half-cock notch as a safe carry mode, since that's how he designed all his other hammer guns. And before the howls go up...the half-cock is clearly referred to as a "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents...before the manual safety was added. The same patents provide instruction on lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber with one hand. Go look it up.

Fourth...The pistol can be carried safely in Condition Zero. The grip safety is still blocking the trigger and the half-cock is still operational should the hammer get loose from the sear.

Thus, the 1911 pistol was designed to be carried in any of four conditions of readiness, according to need and desire...five if you include half-cock.

It can be carried in Condition One, but it wasn't specifically designed to
be carried in Condition One.

The same can be applied to the other conditions, including half cocked.

Excellent post! Many minds won't be changed by the truth, but it is important to have the facts standing prominently along side of the myths.

By the way, what is Condition 0?

BuckyP
02-01-2011, 09:22
By the way, what is Condition 0?


Ready to go, no safety on. Cocked and "Unlocked" if you will.

CAcop
02-01-2011, 11:28
These cocked and locked discussions are always fun. There's a lotta myth and misconception surrounding the issue.

First...The pistol was neither designed nor was it intended to be carried cocked and locked...by John Browning or anybody else. Browning's first 8 examples that were submitted for evaluation didn't have thumb safeties...so how could it have been his intent?

Second...The addition of the thumb safety wasn't done for the purpose of carrying the gun in C-1. It was done so that a mounted trooper could engage a safety and reholster it in order to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse. Even then, the unenlightened thinkin' heads understood that a man under stress might neglect to get his finger off the trigger before jamming the gun into a holster. That's a point that Gaston Glock chose to ignore.

Third...If Browning had any intent at all, it was to use the half-cock notch as a safe carry mode, since that's how he designed all his other hammer guns. And before the howls go up...the half-cock is clearly referred to as a "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents...before the manual safety was added. The same patents provide instruction on lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber with one hand. Go look it up.

Fourth...The pistol can be carried safely in Condition Zero. The grip safety is still blocking the trigger and the half-cock is still operational should the hammer get loose from the sear.

Thus, the 1911 pistol was designed to be carried in any of four conditions of readiness, according to need and desire...five if you include half-cock.

It can be carried in Condition One, but it wasn't specifically designed to
be carried in Condition One.

The same can be applied to the other conditions, including half cocked.

In other words typical design by committee. It can do many things but nobody is sure what it's primary function is supposed to be.

1911Tuner
02-01-2011, 11:54
In other words typical design by committee. It can do many things but nobody is sure what it's primary function is supposed to be.

No question about its primary function. It's a anti personnel weapon. The question on how it was designed to be carried is equally simple.

The gun is designed to provide you...the user...with a choice as to how you carry it, depending on the different levels of readiness required as dictated by the situation.

Condition One is safe..or at least as safe as a loaded, cocked gun can be.

Condition Two is safe. The only risk is in lowering the hammer, and that's practically non-existent if properly executed.

Condition Three is safe. There's nothing under the hammer.

Condition Zero is safe. The grip safety is still in operation, and assuming that the fire control group is functioning correctly...the half-cock will stop the hammer if the hooks or the sear fails.

Half Cocked is safe. The half-cock notch in its original configuration forms a captive notch that interlocks the sear and hammer, and effectively disables the whole fire control group. The sear can't move and the hammer can't fall.
Even the trigger is immobilized with all pretravel removed. If that doesn't fit the requirement for a safety...I'd like to know what does.

If the only intention of the half cock was as an intercept, it could have performed the function just as well with a simple shelf, such as the one on the Series 80 system. It would have been much simpler, easier, and cheaper than the more complex machining steps required to make the captive notch.

TSAX
02-01-2011, 20:49
Cocked and Locked :thumbsup: