Pump-action vs semi-auto shotguns for HD [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Idontplaynice
02-05-2011, 14:41
I personally would rather have a good reliable semi-auto SG.

Anyone here agree.

ronin.45
02-05-2011, 14:44
I'll take my benelli all day. I'm spoiled though. There is nothing wrong with a pump but I'm used to a semi.

PBCounty
02-05-2011, 14:45
But then you can't do that Sarah Connor one-hand pump thing.

g29andy
02-05-2011, 14:51
bedside is a Mossberg 500 18.5" barrel, and a G20

SiNNiK
02-05-2011, 14:57
I have a pump gun but have been re-evaluating recently.

12131
02-05-2011, 14:59
But then you can't do that Sarah Connor one-hand pump thing.
Not just that, but I heard that the BG always gets scared and runs away at the sound of the pump racking.:supergrin:

Graves
02-05-2011, 15:04
Benelli M4 for HD here.

Gareth68
02-05-2011, 15:08
I would take either.

That said, when I was shopping for a home defense gun I got a deal on a bubba'd Remington 1100 that I could not turn down.

I was plannign on buying a Winchester or Mossy pump before stumbling on the gun I bought.

I replaced the seals and orings, gave it a good cleaning and lube...and I am comfortable with it.

YMMV

SuperSleuth
02-05-2011, 15:09
My only experience with a shotgun was shooting 00 buck through a Remington 870 during a familiarization session that lasted about 2 hours.

However, I've always thought for SD/HD the semi-auto shotgun would have an advantage in that it can be fired one-handed. One hand could be injured, opening/closing a door, guiding a child to a safe room, etc. But I've read people with a lot more experience recommending the pump. Maybe someone could clear this up?

Travclem
02-05-2011, 15:10
Benelli M1S90 here

sputnik767
02-05-2011, 15:11
I'll take a pump gun over a semi-auto. I honestly don't know how reliable semi-auto shotguns are, but shotgun shells don't necessarily make it easy to design a reliable semi-auto system. Not to mention the pressure differences between 00 Buck and bird shot for example. I think most cops and even the military still use the Mossberg or Remington pump guns, so I figure what's good enough for them should be good enough for me.

Chad Landry
02-05-2011, 15:12
Not just that, but I heard that the BG always gets scared and runs away at the sound of the pump racking.:supergrin:

Hopefully, they can't run very far after they hear the first "BOOM!!!! chick-chack".

My only experience with a shotgun was shooting 00 buck through a Remington 870 during a familiarization session that lasted about 2 hours.

However, I've always thought for SD/HD the semi-auto shotgun would have an advantage in that it can be fired one-handed. One hand could be injured, opening/closing a door, guiding a child to a safe room, etc. But I've read people with a lot more experience recommending the pump. Maybe someone could clear this up?

Pumps are considered more reliable, though I've yet to experience a failure with a Saiga 12.

LEAD
02-05-2011, 15:12
Semi is preferable if its reliable.

silentpoet
02-05-2011, 16:01
Hopefully, they can't run very far after they hear the first "BOOM!!!! chick-chack".


You're doing it wrong, you are supposed to pump it first so you look bad ass. Movies couldn't get it wrong.

Chad Landry
02-05-2011, 16:03
You're doing it wrong, you are supposed to pump it first so you look bad ass. Movies couldn't get it wrong.

Damn. I knew I wasn't doing something right. :sadangel:

HollowHead
02-05-2011, 16:04
Whichever one makes the loudest cycling action sound. Period. HH

sputnik767
02-05-2011, 16:20
You're doing it wrong, you are supposed to pump it first so you look bad ass. Movies couldn't get it wrong.

I don't keep a round chambered, but not because I want to scare the intruder by racking the slide. I just don't think that shotguns are necessarily drop safe. Although the sound of a shell being loudly chambered would certainly make me think twice about going forward.

Jeepnik
02-05-2011, 16:21
Many moons ago as a poor recently discharged vet, I had a local smith shorten the barrel on my 20 ga Franchi model 48. Well, I've long since purchased several barrels in different chokes. But, it is still used with that shortened barrel as our "home defense" shotgun.

My wife is petit and while she can shoot a 12 ga, it isn't comfortable. In typical indoor distances, that 20 ga with #4 buck should deal with any threat.

On the other hand, my "Jeep gun" is a Mossy 500 in .410. I'm sure it would work for "home defense" with the right loads. So really, it comes down to whatever you prefer.

K.Kiser
02-05-2011, 16:24
I've grown up on pumps and double barrels, and don't feel undergunned whatsoever in a home encounter, although as long as a semi-auto runs reliably it can't be at a disadvantage to the previous two... I have a few doubles, and bunches of pumps but a nice 18.5-20" barelled high cap semi-auto would be a welcomed addition...

kahrcarrier
02-05-2011, 16:25
I'm too cheap to have anything but a couple of pump shotguns. A Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870. If I get enough "gun money" put back to buy a great semi-automatic shotgun, I'll most likely go buy a Sig pistol or something.:supergrin:

Chad Landry
02-05-2011, 16:26
I don't keep a round chambered, but not because I want to scare the intruder by racking the slide. I just don't think that shotguns are necessarily drop safe. Although think what you will, but the sound of a shell being loudly chambered will certainly make me think twice about going forward.

Cut all the shot and powder out of a shell, chamber it, then drop the thing a few hundred times. Pound it against the wall. See if that primer gets spent. Unless your shotgun is junk, it won't.

fwm
02-05-2011, 17:17
OK, I'll play

http://65.28.93.48/Saiga12_Docs/DSC03875.JPG

How about a Saiga12. Based on the tried and true AK47, chambered in 12GA. What could be more reliable?

Wife's side of the bed is the Rem 870. She prefers the harder kick, lets her know she has shot something.

Dennis in MA
02-05-2011, 17:36
After watching Hicock today, I might go for the pump. There's very little 9 rounds of 12ga won't solve. Specifically, I might go for a 590A1 in 21". Wow!

My desire for a massive mag change (Saiga) is a pipe dream. I don't shoot 3-gun. I'm getting more practical as I get older. ????

gconan
02-05-2011, 17:46
A Benelli or Beretta Semi-auto would be the ideal choice for me.

Ragnar
02-05-2011, 18:22
I prefer a semi-auto. If you're in my house uninvited you get no warning from me. Although there are some new pump guns out there that are interesting.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg

Dennis in MA
02-05-2011, 18:43
Will start shipping 3Q 2011, which means the kinks will be worked out about 3-4Q 2012. I need something in between. :)

Brucev
02-05-2011, 18:43
Pump shotgun is fine. Semi-auto shotgun is fine. Both will work just fine. Just a matter of what one prefers.

john58
02-05-2011, 18:49
I like a pump. I have a 590A1, I keep with 1 in the chamber. I'm not a big fan of scaring them away. I would prefer to send them away.

G23c
02-05-2011, 18:50
my HD shotgun is an old Mossberg 500. i have a Benelli M1S90, just not ready to move to it yet for HD.

Nestor
02-05-2011, 18:56
I have a pump (Ithaca M37 Defense) which I like, but short SxS would be nice as well.

cowboy1964
02-05-2011, 18:58
Nothing wrong with a pump. Use the savings to buy ammo and accessories.

Chad Landry
02-05-2011, 19:01
OK, I'll play

http://65.28.93.48/Saiga12_Docs/DSC03875.JPG

How about a Saiga12. Based on the tried and true AK47, chambered in 12GA. What could be more reliable?

Wife's side of the bed is the Rem 870. She prefers the harder kick, lets her know she has shot something.

Yep. I did a few Saiga 12 conversions with a friend of mine. Also a couple of 20 gauge versions. They're some sweet shooting shotguns. I like 'em!

We put the pistol grips on 'em and moved the trigger forward so that it would be a trigger, rather than an extended lever.

Search
02-05-2011, 19:06
It's sad buy my Dept. doesn't allow a round in the chamber. If it needs to come out they think the sound of it racking should help prevent violence.

:faint:


Thank for for rifles.

sombunya
02-05-2011, 20:10
A pump with a side saddle allows ammo changes midway through the magazine; slugs > OO Buck, Bird shot > slugs etc. Also Allows port loading, one at a time.

Not sure why I'd need to do that but if I think of a reason I'll let you know.

STP
02-05-2011, 20:16
I like a pump. I have a 590A1, I keep with 1 in the chamber. I'm not a big fan of scaring them away. I would prefer to send them away.

+1

00 buckshot

I can see it from where I am sitting right now. It will move to the bedside when I go upstairs.

CTfam
02-05-2011, 20:19
The pump shotgun is a great weapon... However, mine sits in the safe next to the revolver. It's a new day and high cap semi autos rule!

fastbolt
02-05-2011, 20:23
Whatever suits you and the circumstances you anticipate ...

Personally, after having seen Benelli (standard & short-barreled) & Remington semiautos choke on rounds which worked in a pump, I still tend to lean toward a pump for long term, all-around reliability with the widest assortment of shotgun loads.

STP
02-05-2011, 20:33
The pump shotgun is a great weapon... However, mine sits in the safe next to the revolver. It's a new day and high cap semi autos rule!

I have wrestled with my choice for some time. Before the tragic boating accident, I had the choice between Mini 14's an AR in 6.8, 30-30 and a Remy 1100. As well as an array of Glocks and revolvers.

I picked the 590A1 because I have a house full of family members and I would be concerned with over penetration in the event of a home invasion.

I am not saying I am right, just what I am comfortable with.

Fox184
02-05-2011, 20:43
I have wrestled with my choice for some time. Before the tragic boating accident, I had the choice between Mini 14's an AR in 6.8, 30-30 and a Remy 1100. As well as an array of Glocks and revolvers.

I picked the 590A1 because I have a house full of family members and I would be concerned with over penetration in the event of a home invasion.

I am not saying I am right, just what I am comfortable with.

There sure seems to be a lot of boating accidents.

All I have now is a flare gun I took from the boat. No one likes fire!:supergrin:

RetailNinjitsu
02-05-2011, 20:44
Y:dunno:I have wrestled with my choice for some time. Before the tragic boating accident, I had the choice between Mini 14's an AR in 6.8, 30-30 and a Remy 1100. As well as an array of Glocks and revolvers.

I picked the 590A1 because I have a house full of family members and I would be concerned with over penetration in the event of a home invasion.

I am not saying I am right, just what I am comfortable with.

In most cases the .223 will penetrate less.

USSOCOM
02-05-2011, 20:46
Benelli M1S90 here

+1 for the Benelli M1S90 Tactical

g29andy
02-05-2011, 20:50
I own a Saiga 12 and it sure is fun, but the bedside gun is still my Mossberg 500 12 ga.

Jeff82
02-05-2011, 20:51
18" Rem 1100 Tac runs just fine for me. Loaded with #1 Buck.

tslex
02-05-2011, 20:53
Pump.

That is all.

Chad Landry
02-05-2011, 20:55
I really like slugs. I want to see vertebrae embedded in the walls behind that creature who decided to enter my home.

STP
02-05-2011, 21:03
Y:dunno:

In most cases the .223 will penetrate less.

That is why i have wrestled with my choice.

Kentucky Shooter
02-05-2011, 21:07
I have always been very handy with a pump, so my choice would be a pump every time.

Z71bill
02-05-2011, 21:39
I have been shooting a 12 gauge pump for 41 years -

I never even considered I would ever even consider:upeyes: any thing other than a pump.

Then I bought my wife a 20 gauge semi auto - figured a semi would be better for her -

The risk of a jam VS the risk of NOT pumping a new round after 1st shot.

I still have the 870 as my primary HD shotgun but see a Mossberg 930 in my future.

Only thing that bothers me -

Sometimes when I am shooting the semi auto (double clay targets) I jerk on the forend after my first shot like I am trying to pump the action. :embarassed:

Looks like I will need to shoot a few thousand rounds to get comfy with the semi auto. :cool:

Quigley
02-05-2011, 21:48
For me for some reason I prefer the SxS. I have owned a couple different pumps but have gotten rid of them all. I like semi-autos but I dont have the $1200+ to throw down on an FN or a Benelli so for now I will stick by my SxS.

krab
02-06-2011, 00:00
I have a love affair with my Remington 870 12 g pump. I had it balanced and blueprinted, ported and polished and it never jams unless it is short stroked.

This sweetheart still gives me the chills when I shoot. I always think of the damage this shotgun could inflict, just like a woman! I also enjoy collecting the different types of shells available.

I don't care for semi autos because they're almost too sterile! :cool:

skeeter7
02-06-2011, 00:16
I have a pump and a semi-auto in the house and the mag tubes are both loaded with 00 Buck. For HD purposes though, I would probably grab the pump with the pistol grip on it just to be able to move around the hallways easily with it. I don't believe in the whole "racking the pump will scare way the bad guy" theory, I just think the pump is more reliable.

gh0st614
02-06-2011, 00:38
I have a love affair with my Remington 870 12 g pump. I had it balanced and blueprinted, ported and polished and it never jams unless it is short stroked.
Balanced and Blueprinted? For why

Veedubklown
02-06-2011, 00:55
I'll take mine in pump.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e197/veedubklown/2260a578.jpg

Fox
02-06-2011, 01:42
pump-action, automatic, & double barrel coach gun...

They are all adequate for home defense.

speedsix
02-06-2011, 03:16
I have been shooting pumps since I was 11 and they are very easy for me to use. I don't think of the action anymore, it just happens. I have shot trap and skeet and never felt like I lacked speed.

I have shot semi-autos and they are nice because they reduce recoil but I have spent 20+ years shooting the heck out of pumps and I can't switch now. I put the work in and it is part of me in a way.

If I was just starting out, I would buy a semi-auto. It is a better platform because the reduced recoil probably allows faster shooting when you are used it to it. I am faster with my pump but that is because that is what I know. The action of pumping it does help get you back on target.

Bottom line, if you are asking the question, you don't know enough to have to stick with either one. I suggest a semi if the pump action is not ingrained into your soul. I hear that the better semi-autos are almost as reliable as the pumps.

As for pumps, there is no better gun than the Rem 870 over the long haul. I have broke Moss 500s, Winchester 1300s and Ithaca 37s. I have never broke an 870. The problems with the Moss 500 I have had were mostly due to the action bars. I think that is the weak link in the system but the platic safety lever will break if giving half a chance and should be replace if you plan on using it for self defense. The new Moss 500 seem to have better action bars.

I have only had two semi-autos and both had jams from ammo it didn't like. My Rem 870 likes everything all the time, period. You put it in, it shoots it.

Z71bill
02-06-2011, 07:40
I have been shooting pumps since I was 11 and they are very easy for me to use. I don't think of the action anymore, it just happens. I have shot trap and skeet and never felt like I lacked speed.

I have shot semi-autos and they are nice because they reduce recoil but I have spent 20+ years shooting the heck out of pumps and I can't switch now. I put the work in and it is part of me in a way.

If I was just starting out, I would buy a semi-auto. It is a better platform because the reduced recoil probably allows faster shooting when you are used it to it. I am faster with my pump but that is because that is what I know. The action of pumping it does help get you back on target.

Bottom line, if you are asking the question, you don't know enough to have to stick with either one. I suggest a semi if the pump action is not ingrained into your soul. I hear that the better semi-autos are almost as reliable as the pumps.

As for pumps, there is no better gun than the Rem 870 over the long haul. I have broke Moss 500s, Winchester 1300s and Ithaca 37s. I have never broke an 870. The problems with the Moss 500 I have had were mostly due to the action bars. I think that is the weak link in the system but the platic safety lever will break if giving half a chance and should be replace if you plan on using it for self defense. The new Moss 500 seem to have better action bars.

I have only had two semi-autos and both had jams from ammo it didn't like. My Rem 870 likes everything all the time, period. You put it in, it shoots it.

You have the exact same opinion as I did - when I was in my 30s and 40s -

The BIG 50 is way back in the rear view mirror now and my view is starting to change.

I have arthritus in my hands - some days it is hard to button my shirt -

I can still move around pretty good but am starting to notice the range of motion in my shoulders is not what it use to be.

I recall being able to shoot a pump just as fast as the folks I was shooting with could fire their semi autos - if you had to hit the target - not just shooting into the air.

I doubt I could do that now.

I will have a few pump action 12 gauges in my safe as long as I live - but the semi is starting to look like a better option.

CTfam
02-07-2011, 15:54
I have wrestled with my choice for some time. Before the tragic boating accident, I had the choice between Mini 14's an AR in 6.8, 30-30 and a Remy 1100. As well as an array of Glocks and revolvers.

I picked the 590A1 because I have a house full of family members and I would be concerned with over penetration in the event of a home invasion.

I am not saying I am right, just what I am comfortable with.

Fair enough. The overpenetration issue shouldn't even factor into your choice IMO. Everything you listed is going to hurt someone behind drywall. I picked the gun I want to fight with and it happens to be 7.62x39mm. Just hit your target!

CTfam
02-07-2011, 15:56
I'll take mine in pump.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e197/veedubklown/2260a578.jpg

:thumbsup: I'm a sucker for an SKS. Surplus sling, mis matched wood... I can smell the cosmoline from here! :cool:

TexanRon
02-07-2011, 16:03
I prefer a semi-auto. If you're in my house uninvited you get no warning from me. Although there are some new pump guns out there that are interesting.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg

+1. You might hear the click of the safety being clicked on my 870 - or not.

jswest86
02-07-2011, 16:06
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJzzXbvPRcz-Sx2qpQs5Gb4ZPkYK8wM4lYYGPCPfcj75FMRekRQQ

Ftw....

PrO...
02-07-2011, 16:07
Semi for me...

Kozel
02-07-2011, 18:42
Not just that, but I heard that the BG always gets scared and runs away at the sound of the pump racking.:supergrin:

Many years ago I lived in crappy apartments. One day I heard somebody talking right on the other side of my front door. Could not quite understand what was said because it was all in Ebonics. I grabbed my shotgun and rocked the slide. Next thing I heard were steps of somebody running away fast. Everybody knows that sound.

The only semi-auto shotgun I trust is Saiga. Had two Remington 1100s and Winchester (semi auto, do not remember model). They only worked when they felt like it and only with ammo they liked.

mdfd
02-07-2011, 20:09
Among other guns, I have a Moss 590 pump that I would not hesitate to use for HD. I'm supposed to get my 930 SPX in this week, so as soon as I familiarize myself with it and it proves it's reliability, it will go into the collection for HD use as well...
My only real criteria for HD use is that it is something that is reliable and that I am familiar with...

mixflip
02-08-2011, 01:24
My Mossberg 930SPX semi auto is good to go.

http://www.gunsandgearreview.com/2010_11_01_archive.html

Big Bird
02-08-2011, 05:45
The only shotgun I've ever had actually "fail" on me was a Remington 870 during a Pheasant hunt in Oregon. The ejector spring broke off inside the receiver. Since its riveted to the inside of the receiver wall I had to send it back to Remington for repair. I know that's anecdotal. And I completely trust my Remington 870 HD gun. But nonetheless, the 870 is the only shotgun that's gone down for me and I've logged somewhere between 250,000 and 300,000 rounds on shotguns hunting, shooting registered skeet for 10 years and registered Sporting Clays for maybe 6 or 7 years.
I shot the 12 gauge skeet events with a Remington 11-87 for many years in the 90's but eventually went back to the tubed Beretta O/U.

I've shot upwards of 20,000 rounds out of my Benelli hunting guns usually in a duck blind--usually wet and below freezing temps and almost always muddy. I mostly run 3" shells with steel shot but the SBEII and Vinci will run 2 3/4 light target loads fine as well. Many times, I've had those guns so mucked up with rice straw and mud from a day in the blind that the first thing I needed to do when I got home was wash the gun off with a garden hose and a plastic scrub brush! If you've ever been in a duck boat you understand how much things get banged around and abused--including your shotguns. Yet the Benellis worked with perfect reliability--as the Duck Commander says: the only thing a hunting shotgun has to do is go-- Boom Boom Boom... Every time. And the Benellis do.

When i went to Gunsite back in the 90's there were a few Benelli M1 Super 90's in the course. Mostly it was 870s though there were a few 1100's as well. The thing I remember about it...the Benellis were flawless. The guys with the Benellis shot the entire week long course without a hitch. You simply could not say the same thing about any other gun in the course including the 870's.

I recently bought a Benelli M2 tactical. Have only put about 25 shells downrange to get the ghost rings dialed in. With Federal LE Tactical Buckshot loads and Federal Classic slugs it hasn't missed a beat. A far cry from the trust I have in my Benelli hunting shotguns. But this one is as slick as any Benelli you will handle. And I've proven to myself many times over how much hard use and abuse a Benelli can absorb and still function. Once I have enough rounds through it I'll use it as my primary HD gun. Until then the 870 gets the nod. But anyone who tells you semi-auto shotguns aren't reliable enough to use for HD--compared to what? In my (again anecdotal) experience with Benelli's and 870s...the Benelli is more than reliable enough.

triggerjerk
02-08-2011, 07:13
My Benelli M4 has been 100% reliable with all of the types of buck and slug I have stockpiled so it would get the nod over a pump.

fastbolt
02-08-2011, 12:16
This is something each owner/user has to determine for themselves.

An older Super 90, and a couple of short-barreled Benelli's used for special enforcement tasks, wouldn't consistently feed and cycle low recoil buckshot for the owner and the users. They did fine with standard pressure loads, though. A rather small number of those make/models, granted.

Someone with a physical concern could find the semi/gas guns to be more useful and practical for their needs, though.

Also, I've seen a few pumps fail at some point or other, too. Some could be put back into action on the range, some had to be taken back to the bench for repair and some had to be returned to the factory for more extensive repair.

I don't consider any firearm to be foolproof and perfect as long as it has moving parts, springs, etc. ;)

In the meantime, I have a pair of Rem & Win pumps in my safe. I had an older (late 70's?) production 870 I was issued for work that I used ... and upgraded with various new parts ... which served me well for training, practice & service carry for some years. I used a side-saddle on it, although I left the original 4-shot tube mag tube on it until I turned it in at my retirement.

Some of the younger instructors have some really nicely improved and modified pumps nowadays.

Just depends on each person and their needs and experiences.

DANDYKILL47
02-08-2011, 12:28
I put no faith whatsoever in a racking sound scaring away a BG! If he's crazy enough to break in to your house in the first place, what makes you think he doesn't have a semi auto rifle on him? So now when you rack it now he knows where you are AND that he has a crazier weapon! That said, nothing wrong with a pump, in fact, I keep a Mossy 500 next to me while I sleep! (Among other things):supergrin:

Travclem
02-08-2011, 12:35
My Benelli M4 has been 100% reliable with all of the types of buck and slug I have stockpiled so it would get the nod over a pump.
The only reason I prefer the m1/m2 to the m4 is because with those little gas pistons you add 2 more parts to the imported gun, making it harder to legally put a non-neutered magazine on it. My M1 hold 9 rounds (7 in the tube, 1 on the carrier, and 1 in the chamber) and it is 100% legal

ATL_GLOCK
02-08-2011, 12:47
i say 1 of each! I've got the supernova pump and saiga 12 semi

Veedubklown
02-08-2011, 13:13
:thumbsup: I'm a sucker for an SKS. Surplus sling, mis matched wood... I can smell the cosmoline from here! :cool:

Sniff it :tongueout:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e197/veedubklown/101_3169.jpg

I bought it to chop it.

David Armstrong
02-09-2011, 12:04
Pump shotgun is fine. Semi-auto shotgun is fine. Both will work just fine. Just a matter of what one prefers.
That pretty much covers it. I would add that a double or even a single barrel will also work fine. It is all a matter of what you want to do and what you prefer. All have advantages and disadvantages. Loading up is much the same. Some are not drop-safe, some new ones are drop safe. Either will work just fine, you just need to know which yours is to make an informed decision.
I'm perfectly happy with my Beretta 1201 auto and my Remington 870 pump, but wouldn't feel particularly troubled if I had to use my SxS or single shot for HD.

JFrame
02-09-2011, 17:34
All I KNOW is pump -- maybe that's just as well... :supergrin:

.

#5xbr
02-09-2011, 19:19
my 10+plus year old mossberg semi(which has never had a internal part replaced) model 5500 can process 7+1 as fast as i can make it happen

sputnik767
02-09-2011, 20:06
I put no faith whatsoever in a racking sound scaring away a BG! If he's crazy enough to break in to your house in the first place, what makes you think he doesn't have a semi auto rifle on him? So now when you rack it now he knows where you are AND that he has a crazier weapon! That said, nothing wrong with a pump, in fact, I keep a Mossy 500 next to me while I sleep! (Among other things):supergrin:

Two problems with that assessment:

One, unless you are a high profile target who pissed off the wrong person, chances are, the BG breaking into your house is an opportunist that think he (or they) found an easy target. Once he realizes that they target is not so easy, there is a good chance that he will not pursue it further. Your common street thug does not want to be shot any more than you do, and the sound of a shotgun racking the slide may just be enough to end it.

Two, there is a good chance that the common street thug is not carrying a semi-auto rifle, but something much more concealable. He obviously does not want to attract attention by carrying an AK.

Finally, you are not going to be racking the slide unless you are ready and willing to fire, because relying on the sound to scare them off is silly. Therefore, giving away your position is a moot point, and they can probably see or hear you anyway. You can decide in a half a second what choice the BG has made, and act accordingly. And personally, I have no desire to shoot anyone, whether they are in my house or not. If I can give them a warning that I mean business, and it has a good chance of ending the situation w/o firing a shot, I'll always take that option. That's not necessarily because I value the bad guy's life, but because I don't want to ruin mine.

Aceman
02-09-2011, 20:43
I have wrestled with my choice for some time. Before the tragic boating accident, I had the choice between Mini 14's an AR in 6.8, 30-30 and a Remy 1100. As well as an array of Glocks and revolvers.

I picked the 590A1 because I have a house full of family members and I would be concerned with over penetration in the event of a home invasion.




I'm just asking, just because you said it - but a lot of other people have also...

You do realize that all of those, Mini14, 6.8, 30-30, 1100, and the 590 will all put lead clean through at least 2 walls/4 sheets and through the person on the other side?

sputnik767
02-09-2011, 20:49
I'm just asking, just because you said it - but a lot of other people have also...

You do realize that all of those, Mini14, 6.8, 30-30, 1100, and the 590 will all put lead clean through at least 2 walls/4 sheets and through the person on the other side?

Yep, easily. I don't know where this misinformation that shotgun shot doesn't overpenetrate came from, but it doesn't take much to put a hole in 2 sheets of drywall. It will still be very much lethal when it enters the next room.

gnasty1521
02-09-2011, 21:05
Yep, easily. I don't know where this misinformation that shotgun shot doesn't overpenetrate came from, but it doesn't take much to put a hole in 2 sheets of drywall. It will still be very much lethal when it enters the next room.


I can damn near punch through two sheets and I am 5'9" 170, that should say something about what any bullet will do. Anyway, I watched a Clint Smith DVD on tactical shotguns, and there was a part where he was laying down shooting. I know this is all hypothetical, but it could happen, and now your semi-auto is out. Surely a pump action will still fire like this (trip over something at night while nervous I know, never could happen).

But as with any "this vs. that" posts, it is all about what you are comfortable with and trained on. If it works for you, then why not. I guess Murphy's Law applies to every realm of a firearms discussion anyway.

Bill G
02-09-2011, 21:31
Not just that, but I heard that the BG always gets scared and runs away at the sound of the pump racking.:supergrin:

They also might keep on comeing at you ready for a fight, don't depend on the sound of racking a shotgun.:wow: You also may not want to give away your position by racking the shotgun,:whistling: just a few things to think about..

Take Care All,:supergrin:
Bill G

Big Bird
02-10-2011, 02:51
Overpenetration is not a problem you solve with weapons/ammunition selection.

Its a problem you solve with tactics and a complete situational awareness of your home--shoot and don't shoot areas etc.

The simple truth is that any gun/projectile that won't penetrate a couple of sheets of drywall simply cannot ALSO serve as an effective manstopper. PERIOD! You NEED penetration... Because any gun that won't go through a few inches of drywall will not go through a heavy layer of clothing and penetrate 3-4" of bone and flesh and reach a vital organ.

So you want and need penetration to stop problem one--RIGHT NOW. If you fail to solve problem one, all the other problems that can arise from the defensive use of a firearm in a home are probably a moot point!

As always YOU are the weapon...your training, mindset and preparation are what will win this battle. The tool you choose to help you solve the problem is only 10% of the equation.

Penetration = good

Lack of a plan and rehearsal of that plan = bad

David Armstrong
02-10-2011, 09:26
from sputnik767:
And personally, I have no desire to shoot anyone, whether they are in my house or not. If I can give them a warning that I mean business, and it has a good chance of ending the situation w/o firing a shot, I'll always take that option. That's not necessarily because I value the bad guy's life, but because I don't want to ruin mine.
That statement includes so much good philosophy that it deserves to be repeated.

ricklee4570
02-10-2011, 09:34
As far as racking the slide to scare a bad guy away, I think that is ridiculous. As far as I know, there probably has never been a documented case that proves this has any deterence.

If a bad guy is facing you and you have your 12 guage on him, and he is not scared at that point, while you are racking he might be attacking.

Much more effective to shoot when they attack, not rely on a psychological ploy.

mac66
02-10-2011, 11:43
Forget the pump or SA, a 12 ga revolving shotgun is the best. :cool:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/659335-tfb-tm.jpg

Kevin08
02-10-2011, 12:03
This is leaning up against my headboard, though I don't keep anything in the tube.
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt103/kevinv6/shotty2-1.jpg

David Armstrong
02-10-2011, 12:32
As far as racking the slide to scare a bad guy away, I think that is ridiculous. As far as I know, there probably has never been a documented case that proves this has any deterence.
Quite the contrary, we find numerous cases of this occurring in the literature. In fact if you will search this forum you will find a few first-hand reports of it happening.
If a bad guy is facing you and you have your 12 guage on him, and he is not scared at that point, while you are racking he might be attacking.
You rack as you present the gun or as part of securing the gun. You don't stand around pointing an empty gun at the BG.
Much more effective to shoot when they attack, not rely on a psychological ploy.
Much more effective to try to avoid shooting at all, whether it be through psychological ploy or other means.

Big Bird
02-10-2011, 13:14
That statement includes so much good philosophy that it deserves to be repeated.

Its weak-minded and speaks to flawed tactics and strategy that will get you killed. If there's a threat in your house and you are to the point you are bringing a shotgun into battery your mind should be focused on one and only one thing--the violent, brutal, decisive and immediate elimination of that threat. If you fail to put your mind into a combat mindset before you engage in close quarters combat your enemy already has won half the battle. Because the only thing you have left to fall back on is the muscle memory of having shouldered, fired and reloaded your weapon thousands of times and your training. Oh wait...you didn't train or fire your weapon a few thousand times? No wonder people hope the sound of a racking shotgun scares someone off.

How about this....the sound of a racking shotgun deprives you of two tactical advantages you have as a defender--surprise and position. Now if your attacker decides to press the issue after you decide to rack your shotgun he has a general idea where you are located and that you are armed. Good job there General... That's like setting up an ambush and putting danger signs 100 meters down the trail from the kill zone...

sputnik767
02-10-2011, 15:40
Its weak-minded and speaks to flawed tactics and strategy that will get you killed. If there's a threat in your house and you are to the point you are bringing a shotgun into battery your mind should be focused on one and only one thing--the violent, brutal, decisive and immediate elimination of that threat. If you fail to put your mind into a combat mindset before you engage in close quarters combat your enemy already has won half the battle. Because the only thing you have left to fall back on is the muscle memory of having shouldered, fired and reloaded your weapon thousands of times and your training. Oh wait...you didn't train or fire your weapon a few thousand times? No wonder people hope the sound of a racking shotgun scares someone off.

How about this....the sound of a racking shotgun deprives you of two tactical advantages you have as a defender--surprise and position. Now if your attacker decides to press the issue after you decide to rack your shotgun he has a general idea where you are located and that you are armed. Good job there General... That's like setting up an ambush and putting danger signs 100 meters down the trail from the kill zone...

I have to disagree on a few points. One, your house is not completely dark, you probably have a few night lights, plus potential moonlight, plus your footsteps as you are going for your weapon. Not to mention the commotion that you and your family are likely raising once you all know there is a threat. Racking the shotgun gives away no more positional information than you've already given away. But it lets the intruder know, in no uncertain terms, that he is about to be met with equal or greater force. The stealth argument is dead in the water, if you are talking about the confines of your small living space.

Two, you reach for your gun, your mindset is already focused on eliminating the threat. Otherwise, leave the gun alone and call the cops. But you should always look to end the situation w/o violence. Firing the gun should be the absolute last thing you do. That is not weak-minded, and if you think it is, then I will say that you have some issues that you should explore.

Three, eliminating the threat w/o firing a shot is beneficial in more ways that you probably realize. One, there is no court case. Two, no issues with overpenetration/innocent bystanders. Three, no mess to clean up, no dealing with the police other than giving a description of what happened. Four, not losing your weapon to the investigation. Five, not having to kill a person. These are in no particular order btw.

It kind of saddens me that there are so many trigger happy, armchair commando gun owners on this board. I am positive that 99% of tough talking internet tough guys here have never killed a person. I never have and have no desire to find out what that is like. Even if the shooting is totally justified, it is always infinitely better to avoid having to fire at all. Trying to be a hero may end up ruining your life.

David Armstrong
02-10-2011, 16:26
Its weak-minded and speaks to flawed tactics and strategy that will get you killed.
Hmmm. Apparently you know a whole lot more about it than a number of recognized experts in the field. On second thought, probably not.:upeyes:
If there's a threat in your house and you are to the point you are bringing a shotgun into battery your mind should be focused on one and only one thing--the violent, brutal, decisive and immediate elimination of that threat.
What was that about flawed tactics and strategy?? Your mind should be focused on solving the problem the best way possible with the fewest loss of resources. If that indicates violent and brutal elimination of the threat, so be it, but let's not try to pretend that is the only option or even the first choice of the options.
If you fail to put your mind into a combat mindset before you engage in close quarters combat your enemy already has won half the battle.
And how does racking the shotgun prevent the combat mindset? Seems like lots of LE and military manage to do it regularly, along with a whole lot of civilians.
Because the only thing you have left to fall back on is the muscle memory of having shouldered, fired and reloaded your weapon thousands of times and your training. Oh wait...you didn't train or fire your weapon a few thousand times? No wonder people hope the sound of a racking shotgun scares someone off.
Actually, being an old firearms instructor and specializing in shotgun training for many years, I find that I have fired more than most. And that muscle memory thing about shouldinering, firing, reloading, etc. applies jsut as much to picking up a shotgun with a round in the chamber as it does one with the chamber empty.
How about this....the sound of a racking shotgun deprives you of two tactical advantages you have as a defender--surprise and position. Now if your attacker decides to press the issue after you decide to rack your shotgun he has a general idea where you are located and that you are armed.
How about this. You rack your shotgun as you bring it to bear on the suspect and then see what he does? Surprise!! And if you think you are sneaking through your house looking for the BG and he won't hear you, think again. The way you hve the advantage of surprise and position is if you pick your position before engaging the BG. So you don't lose that either way.
Good job there General... That's like setting up an ambush and putting danger signs 100 meters down the trail from the kill zone...
Again, why kill someone if you don't need to? Yes, if I've got an ambush set up, I'm going to tell the BG that he is heading into an ambush. I'm going to rack the gun, tell him I have a gun, and tell him the police have been called and are on their way. Odds are he will then go away without further trouble. Killing people isn't that much fun when you have to, much less when you don't really need to do so (unless you are somewhat of a sociopath). See, that is what a General thinks is a good job...winning the fight with minimum loss of resources.

So see, if you actually know how to use a shotgun and something about tactics, there isn't much downside to chamber empty storage for an HD gun, except in very unusual circumstances. If you are going to go hunting the BG (not a real good idea) you can pump the gun as you are mounting without any loss of time or control, so there is no real difference. If you are forted up in a safe spot, you can rack early and loudly, so the BG can go away.

powder86
02-10-2011, 17:05
After watching Hicock today, I might go for the pump. There's very little 9 rounds of 12ga won't solve. Specifically, I might go for a 590A1 in 21". Wow!

My desire for a massive mag change (Saiga) is a pipe dream. I don't shoot 3-gun. I'm getting more practical as I get older. ????

i LOVED his 590!

Big Bird
02-10-2011, 18:02
I have to disagree on a few points. One, your house is not completely dark, you probably have a few night lights, plus potential moonlight, plus your footsteps as you are going for your weapon. Not to mention the commotion that you and your family are likely raising once you all know there is a threat. Racking the shotgun gives away no more positional information than you've already given away. But it lets the intruder know, in no uncertain terms, that he is about to be met with equal or greater force. The stealth argument is dead in the water, if you are talking about the confines of your small living space.

Two, you reach for your gun, your mindset is already focused on eliminating the threat. Otherwise, leave the gun alone and call the cops. But you should always look to end the situation w/o violence. Firing the gun should be the absolute last thing you do. That is not weak-minded, and if you think it is, then I will say that you have some issues that you should explore.

Three, eliminating the threat w/o firing a shot is beneficial in more ways that you probably realize. One, there is no court case. Two, no issues with overpenetration/innocent bystanders. Three, no mess to clean up, no dealing with the police other than giving a description of what happened. Four, not losing your weapon to the investigation. Five, not having to kill a person. These are in no particular order btw.

It kind of saddens me that there are so many trigger happy, armchair commando gun owners on this board. I am positive that 99% of tough talking internet tough guys here have never killed a person. I never have and have no desire to find out what that is like. Even if the shooting is totally justified, it is always infinitely better to avoid having to fire at all. Trying to be a hero may end up ruining your life.

One, you have no idea what my house is like at night. You have no idea how big or small it is. But I promise, you rack a shotgun in it...I can tell you upstairs or downstairs and left of the stairwell or right of the stairway. And again, you have just given the intruder MORE information than he had before.

Two, Ending a life threatening situation without violence. Gee...maybe if you are a cop and trained to do that... But when you and your family is facing an immediate threat where engagement decisions need to be made in split seconds? C'mon, that kind of second guessing only leads to hesitation. Hesitation will get you killed... And I never once suggested or even implied you should go hunting for the bad guy. In most cases that would be really dumb. I've literally seen men die who were holding guns at the ready and got caught off guard. Don't sell me some BS that because you are holding a gun you are mentally prepared to deal with the problem.

Three, I could give a crap about a lawsuit. That's problem three or four down the list. I'm focused on problem one and the immediate termination of problem one. In my favor. Dealing with cops, DA's and Judges/Juries is not something I look forward to. But its also not something I give the least bit of thought to either...other than what I've been trained to do and say after a justifiable homicide. If the bad guy decides to run away the that was his good fortune. But I'm not betting or even holding out the slightest hope that he will. Because, that distracts me from what I should be focusing on--defeating the threat.

Lastly, I'm not going to get into a ***** measuring contest with you about my experience in combat, my training with the best military and civilian people in the business, nor even show you my scars, medals, and bullet hole in my leg. All I will simply say is I understand why you fall back on crap that you talk about and where it comes from. What you are parroting does nothing but distract people from the very serious, nasty, brutal, hopefully quick and one sided, almost always ugly business of depriving another human being of his life at a few steps distance. THAT is ultimately what we are dealing with. All this crap about emotional trauma and what you can expect from the law after a shooting is just that. Focus on the problem at hand. From experience--the MOST important thing you can do in a potentially violent life or death situation is to FOCUS with all your emotion, intellect and physical being on destroying that which seeks to harm you. Anything less and you are in more trouble than you know. You can deal with problems two, three and four at your leisure. I have no desire to be a hero. I am nothing more than a problem solver and I don't allow myself to be distracted by inane parroted BS. That simple.

And BTW, a Captain in the Army understands the importance of using minimal resources to accomplish the mission. But that calculation is made in the context of mission accomplishment and minimizing risk. You are focused on resources like a supply officer--not a commander. I am focused on getting the job done with the highest probability of success. And I'm not interested in a fair fight.

Big Bird
02-10-2011, 18:49
Let me relate a story to the board about tactics and risk. Second night of the Gulf War, we are attacking North into Iraq about 120 kilometers north of the Saudi Border and just west of the Kuwaiti border. We had intelligence about a dug in infantry company at a given location and sure enough my scouts called in a spot report where they should be. So I get my ducks in a row and enough firepower lined up and ready for an assault and my Squadron Commander decides he wants to give them an opportunity to surrender--all visual observation to that point indicated they were not aware of our presence. So the LTC calls up a PsyOps contact team with some loudspeakers and some Arabic speakers and begins to blast them with stuff like "Give up, you all will die, etc etc." Well guess what? These guys were not your run of the mill Iraqi grunts they were Republican guards. And guess what they did? Woke up, manned their positions and started firing of course. Now it ended fine for us, I called in some DPICM 155mm artillery and what that didn't kill the Bradleys and Tanks did. But still, I thought back to the engagement and thought how badly that might have ended up for us even if by chance they managed to kill only one of our guys.... All because we wanted to fight nice.

My Squadron Cdr and I both later agreed that we shoot first next time. Gang up on them. give them no chance to respond. Overload every sensory organ they have--blind em, silence em, make it so they can't hear or see or smell. Then kill them leaving little chance for their response. Brutal? Yep! Or I could have the pleasure of maybe telling Mrs. Johnson that her son died because I wanted to give the enemy a fair chance to give up...

My point is this whole stupid discussion is about killing and tactical advantage. How dumb would you feel if you sat barricaded in your bedroom with your shotgun and the bad guy ignores your warnings about calling the police, and how you are armed etc...and just starts shooting at you through the door or wall or ceiling.... You just exposed yourself to lethal fire--surrendering the element of surprise and other tactical advantages Kind of like what we did with the Republican Guards....whom we had bombed for 40 days before we went in on the ground. Think about it.

Kevin08
02-10-2011, 18:56
If someone breaks into my home, and I feel I'm in danger, I will have the intention on taking that person's life to protect my home/my life/my family. Scaring them away isn't enough, IMO.

Call it what you want, it's our right in Florida to do so.

I'm not going to hide, call the police, and wait while someone steals and destroys the stuff that I worked to get, I will not threaten them or speak a single word to them. To me, they lost their chance as soon as they decided to enter the house. If you live in a state where you will be held accountable and punishable by law for defending your home and your life, you are in the wrong state.

sputnik767
02-10-2011, 20:49
One, you have no idea what my house is like at night. You have no idea how big or small it is. But I promise, you rack a shotgun in it...I can tell you upstairs or downstairs and left of the stairwell or right of the stairway. And again, you have just given the intruder MORE information than he had before.

Two, Ending a life threatening situation without violence. Gee...maybe if you are a cop and trained to do that... But when you and your family is facing an immediate threat where engagement decisions need to be made in split seconds? C'mon, that kind of second guessing only leads to hesitation. Hesitation will get you killed... And I never once suggested or even implied you should go hunting for the bad guy. In most cases that would be really dumb. I've literally seen men die who were holding guns at the ready and got caught off guard. Don't sell me some BS that because you are holding a gun you are mentally prepared to deal with the problem.

Three, I could give a crap about a lawsuit. That's problem three or four down the list. I'm focused on problem one and the immediate termination of problem one. In my favor. Dealing with cops, DA's and Judges/Juries is not something I look forward to. But its also not something I give the least bit of thought to either...other than what I've been trained to do and say after a justifiable homicide. If the bad guy decides to run away the that was his good fortune. But I'm not betting or even holding out the slightest hope that he will. Because, that distracts me from what I should be focusing on--defeating the threat.

Lastly, I'm not going to get into a ***** measuring contest with you about my experience in combat, my training with the best military and civilian people in the business, nor even show you my scars, medals, and bullet hole in my leg. All I will simply say is I understand why you fall back on crap that you talk about and where it comes from. What you are parroting does nothing but distract people from the very serious, nasty, brutal, hopefully quick and one sided, almost always ugly business of depriving another human being of his life at a few steps distance. THAT is ultimately what we are dealing with. All this crap about emotional trauma and what you can expect from the law after a shooting is just that. Focus on the problem at hand. From experience--the MOST important thing you can do in a potentially violent life or death situation is to FOCUS with all your emotion, intellect and physical being on destroying that which seeks to harm you. Anything less and you are in more trouble than you know. You can deal with problems two, three and four at your leisure. I have no desire to be a hero. I am nothing more than a problem solver and I don't allow myself to be distracted by inane parroted BS. That simple.

And BTW, a Captain in the Army understands the importance of using minimal resources to accomplish the mission. But that calculation is made in the context of mission accomplishment and minimizing risk. You are focused on resources like a supply officer--not a commander. I am focused on getting the job done with the highest probability of success. And I'm not interested in a fair fight.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree here. You have combat experience, I clearly don't. You will deal with any situation the way you see fit, and I will deal with any situation the way I see fit. You may not give a crap about lawsuits, but I do, and if I can end a situation w/o firing, I will always pursue that option. One, my state law requires it, and two, that's how I want to do it. If you believe that you can quietly sneak up to the intruder and take him out, that's fine, but if the intruder has 2 brain cells, he will hear you coming. Most houses have creaky floors you know. Your experiences may have taught you to shoot first, but military combat is quite different from what may take place in your home. You may have to worry about what's on the other side of the wall when you take your shot. For the record, I have no trouble "destroying someone who seeks to harm me," but needless to say, I'd rather not if I don't have to. I maintain that racking the shotgun will not give away any more positional information than you walking around.

Anyway, feel free to reply, but I'm done posting on this subject. We are not going to agree and I'm fine with that.

Big Bird
02-10-2011, 20:55
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree here. You have combat experience, I clearly don't. You will deal with any situation the way you see fit, and I will deal with any situation the way I see fit. You may not give a crap about lawsuits, but I do, and if I can end a situation w/o firing, I will always pursue that option. One, my state law requires it, and two, that's how I want to do it. If you believe that you can quietly sneak up to the intruder and take him out, that's fine, but if the intruder has 2 brain cells, he will hear you coming. Most houses have creaky floors you know. Your experiences may have taught you to shoot first, but military combat is quite different from what may take place in your home. You may have to worry about what's on the other side of the wall when you take your shot. For the record, I have no trouble "destroying someone who seeks to harm me," but needless to say, I'd rather not if I don't have to. I maintain that racking the shotgun will not give away any more positional information than you walking around.

Anyway, feel free to reply, but I'm done posting on this subject. We are not going to agree and I'm fine with that.

For the second time...please show me where I said you should actively seek out the intruder? I made no such recommendation.

A lawsuit is an annoyance. Dying is a real bummer....

Kevin08
02-11-2011, 01:35
My house is fully carpeted with stone tiles. No creaking.

jdavionic
02-11-2011, 04:24
Folks need to check whether their specific shotgun has a drop safety. Many shotguns do not have a drop safety. So if your shotgun fits that bill, then you really ought to consider keeping it unchambered or storing it in a manner to minimize the risk of having it drop. And by "consider", I mean recognize the risk and determine whether that's a risk you're willing to accept.

With that said, it all depends on your specifics. Yes, we hear stories of the BG fleeing at the sound. How many times does it happen? I doubt anyone here has the "facts" because that's a stat that is likely not kept. And how many times has a homeowner gotten into a struggle with a BG because they were caught by surprise and unable to get their weapon ready in time? Again, it happens but no clear cut facts as to the percentages of cases as it relates to break ins. And is there a difference between a BG entering a home in the day vs. night? I would expect that a BG entering a home at night already has an idea that you're home, and likely has a plan for dealing with you. Any stats on that? Nope, again not something that can proven.

Bottom line, it's a matter of risk assessment and there is no one-size fits all formula. What may be logical or deemed an acceptable risk for you, may not be logical or acceptable for someone else. The important part is to recognize the risks in making your own assessment. Please, I cannot urge more strongly, do NOT rely on folks that claim to be experts here in making that assessment. Do your own research, get your own training, perform your own risk assessment, and then make a decision.

05DodgeDakota
02-11-2011, 06:06
If someone breaks into my home, and I feel I'm in danger, I will have the intention on taking that person's life to protect my home/my life/my family. Scaring them away isn't enough, IMO.

Call it what you want, it's our right in Florida to do so.

I'm not going to hide, call the police, and wait while someone steals and destroys the stuff that I worked to get, I will not threaten them or speak a single word to them. To me, they lost their chance as soon as they decided to enter the house. If you live in a state where you will be held accountable and punishable by law for defending your home and your life, you are in the wrong state.

This, 100%

Packin' Heat
02-11-2011, 07:32
Mossy 590 and a Saiga 12. Lovin my Saiga. Dosent matter what you pick, just dont get caught with nothing. You can get a based our mossy for what, 300 bucks? I'd rather have that than nothing.

re: keltec and its 14 rounds- yeah its super sic. Not sure if its $800-900 sic but we'll see.

Z71bill
02-11-2011, 09:53
More than likely at my home - the sound of the alarm system blaring - and my dogs barking will cover the sound of racking a round into the chamber:upeyes:

If the alarm and dogs do not scare the BG off (as in leave my home now) then I can only assume he is not just wanting to grab some valuables but is there to do me / my family harm.

IMHO every home should have an alarm system - they don't cost that much - and the extra time (even a few seconds) they give you in a home invasion / burglary are every bit as important as trying to decide which SG you should be using.

sputnik767
02-11-2011, 11:21
For the second time...please show me where I said you should actively seek out the intruder? I made no such recommendation.

A lawsuit is an annoyance. Dying is a real bummer....

I never said that you said it. I think it was another poster.

sputnik767
02-11-2011, 11:23
More than likely at my home - the sound of the alarm system blaring - and my dogs barking will cover the sound of racking a round into the chamber:upeyes:

If the alarm and dogs do not scare the BG off (as in leave my home now) then I can only assume he is not just wanting to grab some valuables but is there to do me / my family harm.

IMHO every home should have an alarm system - they don't cost that much - and the extra time (even a few seconds) they give you in a home invasion / burglary are every bit as important as trying to decide which SG you should be using.

I agree. At the very least, an alarm system will do what you may not be able to do, which is alert the police. My parents have an alarm with a cellular backup, in case the telephone cable is cut. If there is even one less thing you have to worry about, it's worth it.

David Armstrong
02-11-2011, 11:58
You may not give a crap about lawsuits, but I do, and if I can end a situation w/o firing, I will always pursue that option.
Right. Skip Gochenourner, of NTI fame, points out that shooting someone doesn't necessarily end the problem, it (hopefully) just ends the physical fight. The real problem may just be starting.
Most houses have creaky floors you know.
It's not just the floor. You've had to get out of bed. You've more than likely fumbled around getting to your gun and getting it ready. You've communicated with your spouse. A host of things let others know where you are.
Your experiences may have taught you to shoot first, but military combat is quite different from what may take place in your home.
Exactly. What might be good tactics for the military in combat does not automatically become good tactics for the homeowner. In fact they are often contradictory.

sputnik767
02-11-2011, 12:45
Right. Skip Gochenourner, of NTI fame, points out that shooting someone doesn't necessarily end the problem, it (hopefully) just ends the physical fight. The real problem may just be starting.

It's not just the floor. You've had to get out of bed. You've more than likely fumbled around getting to your gun and getting it ready. You've communicated with your spouse. A host of things let others know where you are.

Exactly. What might be good tactics for the military in combat does not automatically become good tactics for the homeowner. In fact they are often contradictory.

Especially if your state doesn't have castle doctrine (VA doesn't yet), you'll be looking at a civil court battle even if you are not criminally charged. You may have to spend tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself, not to mention the time lost from work (potentially losing your job as well). You can easily lose the shirt off your back. That's why IMO, firing is the absolute last thing you do, even if your state has castle doctrine.

In the military, you go into a firefight with the backing of your entire squad plus air support, artillery, etc. In your house, you are on your own, entering a room potentially not knowing where the intruder is, how many there are, and what they have. It is much better, if possible, to gather everyone in a room and barricade there, letting the intruder know that you are armed. Considering that the intruder is likely a common criminal looking for an easy target, they are probably not going to push their luck. In fact, I think the chances are very good that upon learning the homeowner is armed, the intruder will bail. Let them take your stuff if they want, it can be replaced. Time lost to court battles and potentially your life if you choose to pursue the intruder can not. Obviously that is not possible in every situation, and sometimes you have to do what you have to do, but it should always be plan A.

Big Bird
02-11-2011, 13:33
Especially if your state doesn't have castle doctrine (VA doesn't yet), you'll be looking at a civil court battle even if you are not criminally charged. You may have to spend tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself, not to mention the time lost from work (potentially losing your job as well). You can easily lose the shirt off your back. That's why IMO, firing is the absolute last thing you do, even if your state has castle doctrine.

In the military, you go into a firefight with the backing of your entire squad plus air support, artillery, etc. In your house, you are on your own, entering a room potentially not knowing where the intruder is, how many there are, and what they have. It is much better, if possible, to gather everyone in a room and barricade there, letting the intruder know that you are armed. Considering that the intruder is likely a common criminal looking for an easy target, they are probably not going to push their luck. In fact, I think the chances are very good that upon learning the homeowner is armed, the intruder will bail. Let them take your stuff if they want, it can be replaced. Time lost to court battles and potentially your life if you choose to pursue the intruder can not. Obviously that is not possible in every situation, and sometimes you have to do what you have to do, but it should always be plan A.

I cannot comment on your state law and I do not intend to tell you to willfully violate that law.

But I will say again, that your assumptions will get you killed. You probably will have no idea who your attacker is. You won't know how many there are, how they are armed, their state of mind, whether they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, their motivation, or anything else. You HOPE they are common criminals and will easily be frightened away. But you PREPARE for AND EXPECT the worst case scenario. Anything less and you have just ceded important momentum to the attacker.

Again, you guys can talk lawsuits and crap all you want. I'm not discounting the fact that its probably going to be a part of it. What I'm telling you is "Plan A" better be to FIGHT AND KILL and your mindset better be right there too. Because all this talk about lawsuits and scaring thugs away is nothing but a distraction from what I'm telling you. You need an aggressive, I'm going to dominate this encounter, and win the day attitude. Not a "oh me oh my, if I shoot somebody I'm going to jail and it will be a mess or lets just hope we scare him off " attitude because that's going to get you killed.

Attitude/mindset is EVERYTHING when it comes to close quarters combat. And trust me--that is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Its not the guy with the best weapons that wins. Its the guy that's most determined. And I don't care if you are talking about a street thug in your bedroom or a Jihadi in downtown Kandahar.

sputnik767
02-11-2011, 14:14
I cannot comment on your state law and I do not intend to tell you to willfully violate that law.

But I will say again, that your assumptions will get you killed. You probably will have no idea who your attacker is. You won't know how many there are, how they are armed, their state of mind, whether they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, their motivation, or anything else. You HOPE they are common criminals and will easily be frightened away. But you PREPARE for AND EXPECT the worst case scenario. Anything less and you have just ceded important momentum to the attacker.

Again, you guys can talk lawsuits and crap all you want. I'm not discounting the fact that its probably going to be a part of it. What I'm telling you is "Plan A" better be to FIGHT AND KILL and your mindset better be right there too. Because all this talk about lawsuits and scaring thugs away is nothing but a distraction from what I'm telling you. You need an aggressive, I'm going to dominate this encounter, and win the day attitude. Not a "oh me oh my, if I shoot somebody I'm going to jail and it will be a mess or lets just hope we scare him off " attitude because that's going to get you killed.

Attitude/mindset is EVERYTHING when it comes to close quarters combat. And trust me--that is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Its not the guy with the best weapons that wins. Its the guy that's most determined. And I don't care if you are talking about a street thug in your bedroom or a Jihadi in downtown Kandahar.

You know, I actually agree with you on most points, especially the part that I bolded in your post. My only point of contention is that I prefer to give the bg an opportunity to leave on his own. If that can happen, it is obviously preferable to shooting him. Now, it will obviously not happen in every scenario, but if the bg can be safely warned, I would take that option. As I see it, he probably already knows where you are anyway, the only thing he doesn't know is whether or not you are armed or cowering under your bed with the phone in your hand. Honestly, if the bg is ballsy enough to break in when people are home, he will probably make a beeline for the bed room anyway, so the chance to scare him away may not even be there. But you can make your shotgun ready (chambered) as you are bringing it up to your shoulder, so there is no time lost there.

For the record, as soon as you pick up the gun in a defensive situation (whether or not your round is chambered), your mindset should be ready to pull the trigger if necessary. I don't disagree with you there. But you should also be open to standing down if your threat is no longer a threat. There is never any intention of picking up a gun to scare the bg, and there is no room for bluffing. But if it so happens that the bg is scared by the gun and runs away, you just won the battle w/o ever firing a shot.

Ruggles
02-11-2011, 19:39
As far as racking the slide to scare a bad guy away, I think that is ridiculous. As far as I know, there probably has never been a documented case that proves this has any deterence.

If a bad guy is facing you and you have your 12 guage on him, and he is not scared at that point, while you are racking he might be attacking.

Much more effective to shoot when they attack, not rely on a psychological ploy.

I agree racking a pump action is not a good plan in itself as a deterrent. But I bet my left testicle (and trust me that sir is one big bet :supergrin:) that that sound has indeed deterred a number of scumbags in the past, and will do so in the future. That sound in damn near universal and very unique.


Oh as for pump vs semi....I vote go Reggie style of shotguns:)

http://i55.tinypic.com/dey5av.png

http://i56.tinypic.com/30uwob8.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/250ukw0.jpg

David Armstrong
02-12-2011, 12:12
But I will say again, that your assumptions will get you killed.
You have made that claim before, and all I can tell you is that it is directly contradicted by reality.
You probably will have no idea who your attacker is. You won't know how many there are, how they are armed, their state of mind, whether they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, their motivation, or anything else. You HOPE they are common criminals and will easily be frightened away. But you PREPARE for AND EXPECT the worst case scenario. Anything less and you have just ceded important momentum to the attacker.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with storing the shotgun with an empty or a loaded chamber, informing the BGs that the police are coming and you are armed, etc.
Again, you guys can talk lawsuits and crap all you want. I'm not discounting the fact that its probably going to be a part of it. What I'm telling you is "Plan A" better be to FIGHT AND KILL and your mindset better be right there too.
No, your mindset needs to be "how do I best resolve this situation with the minimal loss and danger to my family."
Because all this talk about lawsuits and scaring thugs away is nothing but a distraction from what I'm telling you. You need an aggressive, I'm going to dominate this encounter, and win the day attitude. Not a "oh me oh my, if I shoot somebody I'm going to jail and it will be a mess or lets just hope we scare him off " attitude because that's going to get you killed.
Again, the literature indicates that you are not correct. And one can be plenty aggressive without looking at "kill everything" as a first choice option.
Attitude/mindset is EVERYTHING when it comes to close quarters combat. And trust me--that is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Its not the guy with the best weapons that wins. Its the guy that's most determined. And I don't care if you are talking about a street thug in your bedroom or a Jihadi in downtown Kandahar.
OK, let's take you with with all your aggression and determination mindset and attitude, and me with my "Gee, I'd really rather not do this" attitude. I get to fort up in my safe room and you get to come get me. Want to bet on who wins??:supergrin:
A mindset of "let's try to solve this without killing anyone unless we have to" does not automatically equal a losing attitude. In fact, folks manage to win with that rather regularly.

OldScribe2009
02-12-2011, 13:35
Not just that, but I heard that the BG always gets scared and runs away at the sound of the pump racking.:supergrin:

No intelligent, sane human being would illegally enter a home, hear that sound, and remain inside the structure. They would have to be on drugs, or mentally disturbed to hang around; I mean, what would go through their thoughts?: "Oh, the people who live here are awake and have heard me. Plus, they have a shotgun. But I'll take my chances and dig through these closets really quick..."

Come on, fellas, come on...

Racking that slide is the same thing as shooting it. You just don't stain the carpet.

mac66
02-12-2011, 17:21
As far as racking the slide to scare a bad guy away, I think that is ridiculous. As far as I know, there probably has never been a documented case that proves this has any deterence.

If a bad guy is facing you and you have your 12 guage on him, and he is not scared at that point, while you are racking he might be attacking.

Much more effective to shoot when they attack, not rely on a psychological ploy.

There has been more than a couple times in my career when racking the slide of a shotgun persuaded a bad guy to give up. In one case we responded to an armed robbery. The robber fled into a rail yard armed with a sawed off shotgun. We saw him hiding under a stationary rail car a couple tracks over. We hit him with our flashlights and told him to come out. He didn't move. I quietly opened my shotgun, removed the shell and placed it back in the tube. I then yelled for him to come out or we would drag him out, I then racked the shotgun. He came out and later told me that he thought he had the advantage against our pistols but not a shotgun. I used the ploy several other times. Responded to a B&E in a warehouse. I heard the guys running around in the dark. Racked the slide and yelled out, "Run like a rabbit, die like a rabbit." They stopped moving around and gave up.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but if I was facing an unknown situation and heard a shotgun being racked on the other side, I am getting the F out of dodge.

Michigun
02-12-2011, 21:11
I gotta say that I’ve seen WAAAAY more loading failures with pump SG’s then I ever have with quality semi-auto SG’s... ‘short-racking’ (shooter induced failure) is the main problem with the pump... and these ‘short-rack’ failures didn’t rear their heads with only rookies... in fact, most came in the hands of VERY seasoned pump-gunners while only target shooting & hunting... none NEARLY as stressful as a violent encounter.

Just something to ponder...

Ruggles
02-12-2011, 23:20
No intelligent, sane human being would illegally enter a home, hear that sound, and remain inside the structure. They would have to be on drugs, or mentally disturbed to hang around; I mean, what would go through their thoughts?: "Oh, the people who live here are awake and have heard me. Plus, they have a shotgun. But I'll take my chances and dig through these closets really quick..."

Come on, fellas, come on...

Racking that slide is the same thing as shooting it. You just don't stain the carpet.

:rofl:

Great post. :supergrin:

Ruggles
02-12-2011, 23:27
There has been more than a couple times in my career when racking the slide of a shotgun persuaded a bad guy to give up. In one case we responded to an armed robbery. The robber fled into a rail yard armed with a sawed off shotgun. We saw him hiding under a stationary rail car a couple tracks over. We hit him with our flashlights and told him to come out. He didn't move. I quietly opened my shotgun, removed the shell and placed it back in the tube. I then yelled for him to come out or we would drag him out, I then racked the shotgun. He came out and later told me that he thought he had the advantage against our pistols but not a shotgun. I used the ploy several other times. Responded to a B&E in a warehouse. I heard the guys running around in the dark. Racked the slide and yelled out, "Run like a rabbit, die like a rabbit." They stopped moving around and gave up.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but if I was facing an unknown situation and heard a shotgun being racked on the other side, I am getting the F out of dodge.


I bet there are tons of stories like that. God knows it would get my attention very quickly. :faint:

tx787
02-13-2011, 01:10
I still think the sound of chambering a round in an AK is more internationally known :)

Z71bill
02-13-2011, 07:01
Let me start out by saying

No correct answer to this question. :cool:

I bought my wife a 20 gauge semi auto shot gun -

I figured based on the amount of practice she does -

The chance of a failure because of a jam with the semi auto (gun or ammo related) is less than the chance of her forgetting / failing to work the action on a pump.

She likes going to the range -she is a good shot - she shoots hundreds of rounds every trip - but 99% is with a semi auto .22 caliber rifle -

A semi auto long gun is what she knows the best.

I even considered having her use the Ruger 10/22 compact as a HD weapon. :dunno:

If the S ever does HTF and my wife must pick up a gun to fight off the hordes of zombies - I bet she will be using one of our .22 rifles - I will try and get her to use the 20 gauge or the Hi-Point 40 caliber carbine - but there is something to be said in favor of using a gun you feel 100% comfortable shooting.

and

I sure as heck would not want to be a zombie within 25 yards of her and her Marlin.

My long winded point is - we should take a look at our own unique situation - and based on this analysis -decide what type of weapon fits the best.

But if you don't have time to do that - then just pick up a 12 gauge pump because that is the best choice. :upeyes::tongueout::wavey:

MacG22
02-13-2011, 12:21
No intelligent, sane human being would illegally enter a home, hear that sound, and remain inside the structure. They would have to be on drugs, or mentally disturbed to hang around; I mean, what would go through their thoughts?: "Oh, the people who live here are awake and have heard me. Plus, they have a shotgun. But I'll take my chances and dig through these closets really quick..."

Come on, fellas, come on...

Racking that slide is the same thing as shooting it. You just don't stain the carpet.

Or a human predator. And that's the problem. Or even worse, a human predator amped up on illegal drugs.

No, a common thief won't stay. But you were never really worried about a common thief harming your family much.

sputnik767
02-13-2011, 13:22
Or a human predator. And that's the problem. Or even worse, a human predator amped up on illegal drugs.

No, a common thief won't stay. But you were never really worried about a common thief harming your family much.

Which is probably why break-ins when the owner is home are relatively rare, I think. I'd be more worried about the person breaking in for other purposes, such as a rapist (as you said). But I'd bet the woman of the house racking a shotgun would provide plenty of deterrent. Again, these are people who prey on seemingly easy targets, and once the target becomes not so easy, they will bail every time. Drugs complicate the issue of course, and if the sound is not enough to make the guy think twice, you may have to pull the trigger. In the end, you apply the minimal force necessary to end the threat, and judge for yourself if escalation is necessary.

David Armstrong
02-14-2011, 12:21
from mac66:
I heard the guys running around in the dark. Racked the slide and yelled out, "Run like a rabbit, die like a rabbit." They stopped moving around and gave up.
Good one. I like one my partner pulled one night. I was chasing a couple of guys, they rounded a corner the partner was approaching...rack shotgun, "Merry Christmas, boys! Who wants a present first?" Immediate slide to stop while arms heading for Heaven.

Michigun
02-14-2011, 13:30
I probably shouldn’t share this one... but what the heck...

My only shotgun racking story...

Forever ago now when I was a senior in highschool my little sister (only a year younger than I) was dating a guy that NO ONE in my family liked even a little bit (he didn’t attend our school... or ANY for that matter)... I woke up one night around 1am to see out my window that my sister & the jackarss were getting into some pretty heavy ‘petting’ while leaning against his car in the driveway (mind you that we grew up in the country)... my sister had a 12 o’clock curfew which meant that this had been going on for a while now... so... I figured it was time that he left... I grabbed my shotgun, quietly slid open my bedroom window, leaned out, racked the action (it was a very calm, quite night & that sound echoed off the woods surrounding our house perfectly) & said “Hey, I think it’s time that you head on home...”... that dude stiffened up (and un-stiffened at the same time I bet, if ya know what I mean ;) ) like a board... before my sister could even start to yell at me that dude was in his car, had it started & was backing out the drive! (He for sure knew what that sound meant!)

The next day, ‘publicly’, I got in a bit of trouble for doing this... but ‘privately’ I got an attaboy... :)

Glockin21
02-15-2011, 11:49
I like the 9 shot capacity of my Mossy.Benellis are nice,but ive bought enough $1000+ guns for awhile.

powder86
02-15-2011, 18:54
I gotta say that I’ve seen WAAAAY more loading failures with pump SG’s then I ever have with quality semi-auto SG’s... ‘short-racking’ (shooter induced failure) is the main problem with the pump... and these ‘short-rack’ failures didn’t rear their heads with only rookies... in fact, most came in the hands of VERY seasoned pump-gunners while only target shooting & hunting... none NEARLY as stressful as a violent encounter.

Just something to ponder...

i'm a pump fan but think this was a very good point... as i also short shuck my pump sometimes...

MacG22
02-15-2011, 22:30
So wait, is it just the racking of the "pump" that bears such mystique for intruders? Why not the rack of the HD pistol slide? Would that not also give bad guys the message that "you mean business" and give them the chance to run away before they could get themselves in further danger?

How many people here use the "racking of the pistol slide" technique? Why would you not use it when you do the same with the shotgun?

David Armstrong
02-16-2011, 10:59
The shotgun pump has developed a bit of mystique, as you put it, that other guns may not have. But I think ANY firearm related noise can be beneficial, even the simple announcement of "I have a gun and will use it if you don't go away." Few folks want to go up against an armed, hardened target that is ready and waiting for them.

Big Bird
02-16-2011, 17:24
The shotgun pump has developed a bit of mystique, as you put it, that other guns may not have. But I think ANY firearm related noise can be beneficial, even the simple announcement of "I have a gun and will use it if you don't go away." Few folks want to go up against an armed, hardened target that is ready and waiting for them.

Or give your attackers the forewarning that they need to persue another avenue of advance.

Like this:

Larry: Hey Moe, did you hear that? Sounds like he's got a shotgun in the upstairs bedroom!"

Curly: C'mon lets get outta here....

Moe, Nevermind that you numbskulls. We came here to rape and kill and that's what were gonna do shotgun or no. Listen up...you go back in the garage and get the can of gasoline we saw sitting over the lawnmower. And you go to the kitchen and get me some towels. We'll make a big firebomb and throw it through the bedroom door. Then we can take care of the rest of our business... Kapeesh?

Or Maybe like this:

Bud: Hey Abbot, did you hear that? I think he's got a shotgun.

Lou: Of course he's got a shotgun do you know anything else that makes a sound like that?

Bud: So lets get outta here....

Lou: Listen. Are you serious about getting what we came here to get or are you just playing around? This is what we're gonna do. You are going into the room right next to the bedroom and I'm going down to the basement. When you hear me scream "Susquehanna Hat Company" you start blasting through the wall and I'll start shooting through the ceiling. We aren't gonna be scared off by no shotgun ya hear!

WoodenPlank
02-16-2011, 17:29
Or give your attackers the forewarning that they need to persue another avenue of advance.

Like this:

Larry: Hey Moe, did you hear that? Sounds like he's got a shotgun in the upstairs bedroom!"

Curly: C'mon lets get outta here....

Moe, Nevermind that you numbskulls. We came here to rape and kill and that's what were gonna do shotgun or no. Listen up...you go back in the garage and get the can of gasoline we saw sitting over the lawnmower. And you go to the kitchen and get me some towels. We'll make a big firebomb and throw it through the bedroom door. Then we can take care of the rest of our business... Kapeesh?

Or Maybe like this:

Bud: Hey Abbot, did you hear that? I think he's got a shotgun.

Lou: Of course he's got a shotgun do you know anything else that makes a sound like that?

Bud: So lets get outta here....

Lou: Listen. Are you serious about getting what we came here to get or are you just playing around? This is what we're gonna do. You are going into the room right next to the bedroom and I'm going down to the basement. When you hear me scream "Susquehanna Hat Company" you start blasting through the wall and I'll start shooting through the ceiling. We aren't gonna be scared off by no shotgun ya hear!

Hence why they would never hear me rack the slide - there is already a round chambered. If they have VERY good hearing, they might notice when the safety clicks off, though.

G23c
02-16-2011, 19:43
did we ever come up with an answer? pump or semi?

Michigun
02-16-2011, 19:59
did we ever come up with an answer? pump or semi?

Semi... :supergrin:

Big Bird
02-16-2011, 22:11
did we ever come up with an answer? pump or semi?

I guess it depends on whether you want to try and scare them away first...:upeyes:

Seriously--use what you are familiar with, have trained with, and have confidence in. The gun is merely the tool. You are the weapon.

Hey, I've got an idea...we make a recording of a pump shotgun racking and run it on a loop around the exterior of the house every 10 minutes or so. That should keep not only the burglers away but also the mailman, door to door salesmen, census takers etc.

sputnik767
02-16-2011, 22:16
did we ever come up with an answer? pump or semi?

Just like the majority of threads like this, it comes down to: well, I have _____ (gun, caliber, car, etc), so I like it better. Some people pointed out good reasons to have a semi (arthritis, better recoil control, less chance of short-stroke), other pointed out good reasons for a pump (durable, always reliable, simple).

SonRunner
02-17-2011, 02:29
Aren't both the Remmington 870 and Benelli M4 both not drop safe? Hence, even with a semi-auto Benelli M4, you would need to cycle the action to chamber your first round, hence making that intimidating sound. I would sware that the Benelli M4 makes a more intimidating sound than the Remmington 870.

David Armstrong
02-17-2011, 13:26
Or give your attackers the forewarning that they need to persue another avenue of advance.
Ummm, how many avenues of advance do you have to your safe area? If there are many, yo uneed to re-assess the safe area.
Like this:

Larry: Hey Moe, did you hear that? Sounds like he's got a shotgun in the upstairs bedroom!"

Curly: C'mon lets get outta here....

Moe, Nevermind that you numbskulls. We came here to rape and kill and that's what were gonna do shotgun or no. Listen up...you go back in the garage and get the can of gasoline we saw sitting over the lawnmower. And you go to the kitchen and get me some towels. We'll make a big firebomb and throw it through the bedroom door. Then we can take care of the rest of our business... Kapeesh?
LOL!! Sure, Moe, I plan on doing a lot of raping and killing while the house is burning down around me. :upeyes:
Or Maybe like this:

Bud: Hey Abbot, did you hear that? I think he's got a shotgun.

Lou: Of course he's got a shotgun do you know anything else that makes a sound like that?

Bud: So lets get outta here....

Lou: Listen. Are you serious about getting what we came here to get or are you just playing around? This is what we're gonna do. You are going into the room right next to the bedroom and I'm going down to the basement. When you hear me scream "Susquehanna Hat Company" you start blasting through the wall and I'll start shooting through the ceiling. We aren't gonna be scared off by no shotgun ya hear!
Cool, Lou. Ummm, you go right on ahead and do that. Im not planning on being trapped in the basement when the cops come.:dunno:

Interesting how far folks go in the realm of fiction and fantasy to try to support a position.:whistling: