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G36's Rule
02-05-2011, 21:23
What does the collective GT shotgunners think are the better arrangements for sights? I'm serious in getting a dedicated defensive shotgun setup with the Mossberg 590a1 and 930spx as top runners.

The 590 can be had with a bead or ghostring sights. I think the 930spx only has ghostring sights available.

I think the bead might be faster, but then I think the ghostring would be beneficial with slugs.

What say you?

Big A
02-05-2011, 21:31
I submitt one more options for your consideration...

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26&section=products

You can also get the 930 without the ghost rings:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=32&section=products

CAcop
02-05-2011, 21:47
Is this something that will be used primarily inside or outside the home?

Inside I would hedge towards bead. Outdoors towards GRS.

Not that you would be too handicapped with either.

G36's Rule
02-05-2011, 21:56
Is this something that will be used primarily inside or outside the home?

Inside I would hedge towards bead. Outdoors towards GRS.

Not that you would be too handicapped with either.

Excellent question.

This will be my "everything" weapon. At home it will be beside the bed. When I travel it will be under the back seat of my truck till I get to my destination. It will go on camping trips from Texas to Montana, so slugs will always be close by or in it.

Vigilant
02-05-2011, 22:39
Rifle sights, perhaps?

MrMurphy
02-06-2011, 00:06
Aippi is in the bead only school.

As a pure indoor gun, i tend to agree. For your situation, especially if you're used to aperature sights, I would go with ghost rings, if not an actual dedicated optic like an Aimpoint H-1.

Ghost rings or an optic, if you train, are no slower than a bead. In fact for me, with nearly 20 years of aperature sights, beads tend to slow me down because my mind is trying to align something that's not there since i shoot rifles far more than shotguns (currently shotgunless).

Depending on the slug and the gun, ghost rings can make an effective hit out to 100 yards or further, but honestly, at that point, you need to bring a rifle along. A good .30-30 with an aperature sight would make a better truck gun than a shotgun though having 'both' is even better.

B Coyote
02-06-2011, 02:42
Excellent question.

This will be my "everything" weapon. At home it will be beside the bed. When I travel it will be under the back seat of my truck till I get to my destination. It will go on camping trips from Texas to Montana, so slugs will always be close by or in it.

Then consider sights that will work better with slugs. My choice would be rifle sights, but if you like the ghost rings, run with them.

bc

Big Bird
02-06-2011, 13:40
Sights. A tactical shotgun is a precision weapon. You need as much shot placement precision with a shotgun as a handgun at almost any distance you care to discuss. One of the things a good set of sights does is it opens up your field of view because the front sight is raised up off the barrel. This works very much the same way a vent rib works on a sporting shotgun. Normally on a rifle you want to try and avoid raising your eye over the bore--but this is a function of long range optics which have no bearing on the effective range of a tactical shotgun.

I've seen too many people in training excel with sights on their tactical shotguns under situations of low light and stimulated stress to know how truly effective they are. A ghost ring sight is every bit as quick as a bead and MORE accurate in tight quarters IF you have trained with one. Of course ghost ring sights are meant to be shot with BOTH EYES OPEN!

David Armstrong
02-06-2011, 17:13
I taught fighting shotguns to a lot of people over the years, and I've seen over and over that for the typical HD distances a bead sight works better for most people. As Murphy said, if you are used to something else then you might want to consider that for commonality of training. But the bead is the default, IMO, and you only move away from the bead if you have a good reason.

GACajunGlocker
02-11-2011, 17:08
I recently bought a 590A1 and got it with the rifle sights (3 dot). The picture on the Mossberg website is here : http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/52682.jpg

I like the rifle sights better than just a bead for accuracy. I "fondled" a few Mossbergs with the Ghost sights but they are so high that it just disturbed my sight picture. Of course I am not used to Ghost sights and those that train with them would use them just fine.

If you do gravitate toward the rifle type sights for you 590A1 you can get night sights here
http://www.ameriglo.net/catalog/sights/shotgun-sights/mossberg/night-sights/complete-sets
I have not bought the ameriglos but in looking at the sight picture it is just like my Glock 23 with night sights that is by my bed along with my 590A1. That way, in the middle of the night either weapon I pick up will have the same type sights. For me that is a good thing.

Good luck with your search....that's half the fun. The other half is the shooting.

PlasticGuy
02-11-2011, 17:46
I've taken and taught a fair number of tactical shotgun classes, and used them as issue guns at work at various times. I don't have Armstrong's experience, but I'm no rookie. Here's my take:

Beads are best if the shotgun is only used in the home. Nothing is faster up close.

Ghost rings are my choice for a shotgun that has to do everything. It's still very fast, and is much more precise with slugs. All of my tactical shotguns have ghost rings.

Red dots are better than both. They are as fast as a bead, and even more precise than ghost ring sights. My ideal set up is an Aimpoint T1 on an ARMS throw lever mount, with ghost ring sights as back up irons. This is how my Benelli M4 is set up. It's a fantastic arrangement for a rifle (you see it on AR15's all the time), and it works just as well on a shotgun.

aveisone
02-11-2011, 18:09
I had a 590 with bead sights. It worked well for fast target acquisition. I now have a 930 spx with ghost ring sights. I find it to be ultimately more accurate with slugs and buck shot. If I need to acquire a target quickly Im not going to use any sights. Im going to point and pull. I find I can even shoot clay with it with a quick glimpse down the side of the barrel. Id recommend the 930.

Boxerglocker
02-11-2011, 18:25
I was just at the range today with a buddy, we were having the same debate. My 870 has GR his Mossy 500 a bead. We share a common box of 00 buckshot an Winchester slugs. Up close and personal it was a tie, but at 25-30 yards the GR were the obvious winner. My 5 shot groups were 3-4 times tighter (both guns benched and each shooter given a few practice shots to zero and determine hold over if needed).

vafish
02-11-2011, 19:45
I think the bead is much faster on a shotgun.

But when I use a slug gun for hunting it has rifle sights on it.

Never been a big fan of ghost ring sights. In my experience the large aperture isn't precise enough to really aide with shot placement like a true peep sight does. So they really don't help accuracy that much and they stick up in the way too much.

And while I like peep sights on a target rifle I prefer an open sight for things that may be moving, just a much larger field of view.

Using a bead sight with a grooved receiver like my Mossberg 500 has I can use the grooves just like a rear sight if I have to slow down and place a precise shot.

SO I'd go with either just a plain bead or the rifle type sights.

old wanderer
02-11-2011, 20:09
Since I shoot my G20c and G29 with ghost ring sights, my 870 is set up with them as well and a tritium front sight.

However my Bennelli is set up with an old Obscured optics sight, very fast and instinctive (as long as you don't close the left eye).

Ruggles
02-11-2011, 20:15
I do like the simplicity of the bead front sight. It is incredibly quick, easy and durable method of sighting on a shotgun IMO. It has a great proven track record as well.

Course I prefer iron sights on an AR so I differ from a number of folks it that regard too.

Z71bill
02-11-2011, 20:52
I think if you are shooting fast - 30 yards or so- clay targets - birds on the wing or a BG running at you across your living room - a bead is better.

If you are taking careful aim - like shooting a standing deer - at 50+ yards a ghost ring or rifle sights would be better.

Ferdinandd
02-11-2011, 22:37
I like a GR and have used that on a 590 and now on a 870. I have used a bead and rifle sights on other GS's, so I think tried everything short of a red-dot or other scope. If one has the front sight highly visible and bright, the GR disappears when shooting fast up close. Yet the GR retains the opportunity to be much more precise than a bead at distances beyond 10-15 yards.

Bottom line - I'd opt for GR with a well marked front sight.

Johan Beer
02-12-2011, 17:21
Rifle sights, perhaps?

That's what I have on my Wilson Combat shotgun, with tritium inserts. I love them and would not trade for GR or a bead.

Warp
02-12-2011, 21:06
I like a GR and have used that on a 590 and now on a 870. I have used a bead and rifle sights on other GS's, so I think tried everything short of a red-dot or other scope. If one has the front sight highly visible and bright, the GR disappears when shooting fast up close. Yet the GR retains the opportunity to be much more precise than a bead at distances beyond 10-15 yards.

Bottom line - I'd opt for GR with a well marked front sight.

Yes.

I just had tritium ghost rings installed on my 870 recently. It is a bit of a do-it-all firearm, just like OP is talking about. It resides in the bedroom but also goes along from time to time when traveling and is a cabin gun when visiting national parks out West.

The first time I shouldered the gun in my bedroom at night, with the ghost rings, I only saw the front site. I actually dropped the gun down and looked at it wondering WTH was going on and if the rear site had, I don't know, fallen off or something. Nope. Still there. But with both eyes open and siting as if there was a bead...which is what I was used to...it just disappeared into the darkness. Hence the term ghost ring.

deserttactical45
02-13-2011, 03:40
Ghost ring all the way!

smitret
02-13-2011, 18:28
What does the collective GT shotgunners think are the better arrangements for sights? I'm serious in getting a dedicated defensive shotgun setup with the Mossberg 590a1 and 930spx as top runners.

The 590 can be had with a bead or ghostring sights. I think the 930spx only has ghostring sights available.

I think the bead might be faster, but then I think the ghostring would be beneficial with slugs.

What say you?

IIRC Gary Paul Johnson liked GR with the top half of the GR removed creating an open sight set-up with a wide rear notch.
Seems like that would work.
YMMV

Good Luck

Kevin08
02-13-2011, 23:36
Ghost ring for me, I wouldn't mind a tritium front sight for my gun.

MrMurphy
02-14-2011, 00:09
Smitret, the XS Express sight does the same thing and it's built that way.

dwaltdtx
02-16-2011, 10:32
I have a 590a1 w/ factory ghost ring sights. If you've never shot with the setup (as with any firearm) get plenty of range time in. I like them for target, but go with night sights in whatever option you choose for home defense.

docwade
02-19-2011, 21:09
I'd chose ghost rings over bead...but I'd choose my Aimpoint over both.

WhiskeyUnicorn
02-20-2011, 06:25
My 870 HD gun has an 18.5'' with rifle sights. I have a trijicon night sight on the front. The mossberg 930 has ghost rings. I love either of them and can shoot them both well. That's a toss up. All of my hunting shotguns have beads though...I can shoot those well also. I think it's all personal pref

ronin.45
02-20-2011, 19:32
Ghost ring sights are superior in every way. They are as fast or faster and much more precise.

David Armstrong
02-21-2011, 13:25
Ghost ring sights are superior in every way. They are as fast or faster and much more precise.
No, that are inferior in many ways, and they are not as fast in some situations. that is always the trick, balancing equipment with situations. If one piece was always provably better there wouldn't be discussions about varied performance.

ronin.45
02-21-2011, 22:11
I'm open to opinions on how ghost rings are inferior to a bead.

denn1911
02-23-2011, 09:55
A front bead sight can be very fast, especially for close distance fighting with the shotgun. If this is your all around multi purpose shotgun, I'd give the edge to a Ghost Ring Sight Set. They can be fast up close with practice as you bring the stock up to your cheek. Ghost rings are great for a longer engagement.

My recommendation would be to try both if you can. See which works best for you. You may find one set up better suited and more comfortable for you.

Good luck!

David Armstrong
02-23-2011, 13:20
I'm open to opinions on how ghost rings are inferior to a bead.
They aren't opinions, they are facts. What might be best for you in one situation may be bad for someone else in a different situation. There is a reason you don't see many ghost rings on guns used in trap and skeet and clays, where you need to get on target fast while maintaining a wide field of view.

bullw
03-02-2011, 09:17
I love the GRS on my Benelli. Remember to train with what you have.

CAcop
03-02-2011, 18:11
I was at the local fun shop the other day and thy had one of the new 3 dot rifle sight on the barrel shotguns that mossberg has. Really nice. I think it is a little better than their GRS. I don't know how much you can adjust them. One of the plus side if you want to go to bead you just change the barrel. GRS sights you would have to add in the rear sight too.

Feanor
03-02-2011, 21:13
They aren't opinions, they are facts. What might be best for you in one situation may be bad for someone else in a different situation. There is a reason you don't see many ghost rings on guns used in trap and skeet and clays, where you need to get on target fast while maintaining a wide field of view.

Beads are popular in skeet because they are using bird shot which spreads significantly compared to the heavy buck, and slugs common to tactical and HD use, the beads are successful because the bird shot spread, makes them more forgiving. Lumping ghost ring sights into your opinion based upon that fact, is fallacious.

sambeaux2249
03-03-2011, 05:55
Personally, I've always had trouble with bead sights. For whatever reason, I always hit VERY low when using a bead sight. The harder I try to use a bead, the lower I shoot, and the SLOWER I shoot. It's completely counter intuitive, but I can shoot more accurately AND faster using a snap sight picture of just the front sight of either a rifle sight or ghost ring sight shotgun than I can with a bead. And for whatever reason, I don't shoot low.

Maybe if I put in a few years of practice shooting with a bead, and spent some time with someone to help me diagnose my problems with using a bead sight I'd be faster and more accurate. The way things stand now, I'm FAR more comfortable with either rifle sights or a ghost ring.

Sam

Big Bird
03-03-2011, 07:26
They aren't opinions, they are facts. What might be best for you in one situation may be bad for someone else in a different situation. There is a reason you don't see many ghost rings on guns used in trap and skeet and clays, where you need to get on target fast while maintaining a wide field of view.

Being a AA Class Registered Skeet and Sporting Clays competitor I can tell you with absolute certainty that the only thing shooting thrown clay targets and shooting a combat shotgun have in common is they both use shotguns.

First, clay targets are almost always shot standing upright and facing the target. This allows for consistent alignment of the eye with the front bead which is critical to good target shooting but almost impossible to achieve in an awful lot of combat shotgun scenarios. IOW, you can't properly mount a shotgun and get proper, consistent alignment with a bead when you are crouched down behind a bed. For this reason Ghost Ring sights are almost universally superior---regardless of the stance/position you have two sights you can align to properly engage a target. And make no mistake--shooting a shotgun at most combat distances requires the same degree of accuracy as a pistol...

Second, clay targets are shot at ranges where the shot patterns typically have opened up from 20-30"....hardly true for a combat shotgun. The overwhelming number of targets on a skeet field for instance are shot at 20 yards. There are s few postions where the distances are shorter and sometimes longer but ideally you break a bird on the skeet field at 20 yards where you will have a 30" pattern with most IC choked guns. Contrast that with the near bullet like shot patterns encountered with most combat shotgun engagements (6-9 feet!)_ and the need for acccurate shot placement is more vital than ever.

Third, if you actually train with ghost ring sights you understand that you give up nothing to a bead. If you haven't trained with them you will. What I'm talking about is what Gunsite calls a "Flash sight picture" that you establish before you press the trigger. The perception is that ghost ring sights are slower than a bead because they require a deliberate sight alignment like a rifle. Again...not true. The ghost ring rear is large and allows you to use both eyes. You eye automatically centers the front sight on the rear sight. Your only focus is on the front sight... You establish a "flash sight picture"--the same identical technique applied to combat pistol shootiong--that simply verifies you are on target and pull the trigger. With a sporting shotgun shooting clays or live game you DO NOT LOOK AT THE FRONT SIGHT AT ALL--you focus on the target. Again, shooting a sporting shotgun is almost universally done standing up, facing the target and mounting the gun the same way every time. Your "sight alignment" is perfected through thousands of rounds of practice and muscle memory. With a combat shotgun you will not always have the luxury of standing up and shooting your target with a perfect sight alignment. Therefore you need a sighting aid that can compensate for this. With a combat shogtun you DO focus on the front sight.... Night and day difference. All the major shooting schools teach this--Gunsite, Front Sight etc etc etc...

David Armstrong
03-03-2011, 09:52
Beads are popular in skeet because they are using bird shot which spreads significantly compared to the heavy buck, and slugs common to tactical and HD use, the beads are successful because the bird shot spread, makes them more forgiving. Lumping ghost ring sights into your opinion based upon that fact, is fallacious.
Actually, the point was not "lump sights together" it was "different situations and different people find different solutions." Given that the bead sight has been proven an effective solution for many years in many situations, it sort of becomes the default choice, and remains the default choice for many professionals. If the ghost ring allowed the shooters to get on target faster you can bet they would use it.

David Armstrong
03-03-2011, 10:27
Third, if you actually train with ghost ring sights you understand that you give up nothing to a bead. If you haven't trained with them you will.
I've trained quite a bit with ghost rings, and I've trained lots of folks who use ghost rings. As I said, ghost rings are fine. It is not if you give anything up to the bead, it is if you gain anything by going away from the bead. However, given typical HD issues, the bead is faster and easier for most people. You said it yourself: IF YOU ACTUALLY TRAIN. Few people actually train much with the shotgun.
With a combat shotgun you will not always have the luxury of standing up and shooting your target with a perfect sight alignment. Therefore you need a sighting aid that can compensate for this.
That is a nice claim, but I happen to believe that when in doubt one should look at what has really happened. And history shows that is not correct. No sighting aid is needed to compensate for HD. You seem to be focusing on a combat shotgun rather than a home defense gun. The combat shotgun is designed to operate at far greater distances than the typical homeowner will encounter. If you want to use your shotgun in place of a rifle then you might need a rifle-type sight. If you want to use it as a shotgun the bead works fine and is faster.
Contrast that with the near bullet like shot patterns encountered with most combat shotgun engagements (6-9 feet!)_ and the need for acccurate shot placement is more vital than ever.
And at 6-9 feet the bead sight is quite adequate to provide proper placement and is faster.
All the major shooting schools teach this--Gunsite, Front Sight etc etc etc...
Putting aside the idea that anyone who would put FS in the same class as Gunsite causes red flags to pop up for me, that is just not true. John Farnam tends to reject rifle and ghost ring sights in favor of a bead for HD. And I just checked my Thunder Ranch material to verify, and there is Clint Smith saying for speed the bead sight has the advantage, for a slower but more precise shot the Ghost Ring is the choice. FWIW, since someone mentioned the XS sight system, that is something Ashley Emerson looked at in depth and he came to the same conclusion... nothing was faster than a plain bead sight. That was the whole basis for the Express sight he developed, to give the shooter the speed of a bead at close range while allowing greater precision at long range. If there is anyone who has done more actual research into how the different sights work and how people use them than Ashley I'm not aware of them, so I tend to give his opinion a fair amount of weight.

Big Bird
03-03-2011, 13:49
I've trained quite a bit with ghost rings, and I've trained lots of folks who use ghost rings. As I said, ghost rings are fine. It is not if you give anything up to the bead, it is if you gain anything by going away from the bead. However, given typical HD issues, the bead is faster and easier for most people. You said it yourself: IF YOU ACTUALLY TRAIN. Few people actually train much with the shotgun.

That is a nice claim, but I happen to believe that when in doubt one should look at what has really happened. And history shows that is not correct. No sighting aid is needed to compensate for HD. You seem to be focusing on a combat shotgun rather than a home defense gun. The combat shotgun is designed to operate at far greater distances than the typical homeowner will encounter. If you want to use your shotgun in place of a rifle then you might need a rifle-type sight. If you want to use it as a shotgun the bead works fine and is faster.

And at 6-9 feet the bead sight is quite adequate to provide proper placement and is faster.

Putting aside the idea that anyone who would put FS in the same class as Gunsite causes red flags to pop up for me, that is just not true. John Farnam tends to reject rifle and ghost ring sights in favor of a bead for HD. And I just checked my Thunder Ranch material to verify, and there is Clint Smith saying for speed the bead sight has the advantage, for a slower but more precise shot the Ghost Ring is the choice. FWIW, since someone mentioned the XS sight system, that is something Ashley Emerson looked at in depth and he came to the same conclusion... nothing was faster than a plain bead sight. That was the whole basis for the Express sight he developed, to give the shooter the speed of a bead at close range while allowing greater precision at long range. If there is anyone who has done more actual research into how the different sights work and how people use them than Ashley I'm not aware of them, so I tend to give his opinion a fair amount of weight.

Thunder Ranch doesn't even offer a shotgun course....

Its just that you keep mixing apples and oranges. The only difference between Home Defense and "Combat" are semantics. In either case we are talking close quarters fighting.

As I pointed out. Sporting use of a shotgun has almost NO bearing on the home defense/tactical use of a shotgun. If you use proper form when shooting at moving targets like clay pigeons and ducks YOU DO NOT LOOK AT THE bead. Your focus is entirely on the target. The bead only serves as a quick reference that everything is aligned properly when you mount the shotgun. And you can miss with a shotgun at 5 yards. Can't tell you how many 100 straights I blew on station 8 shooting at targets 6-7 yards away.

If a bead is so fast why don't competitors use them on handguns? :wow: In my mind the speed difference between a bead and GRS on a shotgun is irrelevant. You should be no faster or slower with a bead as opposed to a GRS because the flash sight picture you observe as you begin your trigger pull is exactly the same regardless and should only confirm you are pointed in the right direction/center of mass. With either system its not an exercise in deliberate aiming. The bead may SEEM more simple and certainly there is a case to be made for simplicity. However, its not like we are training for the olympics here. A set of ghost rings on a shotgun are as easy to teach as a bead and maybe easier becuase you are far less concrned with developing a consistent mount and stock fit becomes far less citical... Also, as I pointed out...there's no way you are consistent with a bead when you shoot from the prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, supported or unsupported with a bead. A set of Ghost Rings makes compensates for the inconsistent shift of your head eyes due to changes in body position. Because the rear sight provides an almost unconcious aligment at the rear of the shotgun WILL be more accurate. At any distance.

If you use a set of ghost rings correctly your complete focus is on the front sight...just like a bead. But with a GRS the rear sight compensates for less than ideal fit and stance common to the encounters one might find himself in with a combat--excuse me--home defense shotgun! A bead works the same way except it provides no way to compensate for the above. Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight...are all that should go through your mind either way. Shooting ducks? I'm looking at the bird.

keninnavarre
03-03-2011, 15:01
What does the collective GT shotgunners think are the better arrangements for sights? I'm serious in getting a dedicated defensive shotgun setup with the Mossberg 590a1 and 930spx as top runners.

The 590 can be had with a bead or ghostring sights. I think the 930spx only has ghostring sights available.

I think the bead might be faster, but then I think the ghostring would be beneficial with slugs.

What say you?

OP, I have several different configurations on my shotguns. I have the 930spx and 590a1 with ghost ring sights. I get good hits out to about 50 yards with ghost rings and slugs. Some of my friends can do better by far. Downside to me would be the front sight is easy to snag on things in tight quarters.

2 of my 870s and my S&W 3000 have bead sights. They are very fast to me, up close and in tight quarters, say inside my home. I can hit fine out to 20 yards with slugs or buckshot with the bead. My accuracy is iffy past that. These are my home defense shotguns, and bird guns.

I have an older 870 with rifle sights, a police trade in, it shoots very good for me with slugs out to about 75 yards, and good with buckshot in all buckshot distances. Downside to me, I cant shoot it as fast as GRS, or bead.

My Eotech on a railed Mossberg 500 works better than either GRS or rifle sights,for me, but of course electronics can and do fail.

My choice for a home defense shotgun would be bead sights. If I planned to shoot at distances past those I would find inside most homes, Id go with ghost rings.

GoBow
03-03-2011, 15:28
Given my old eyes, and the distances I'd use a shotgun, a bead will work just fine. If I wanted a bit more precision, I'd opt for a set of open sights. Preferably something along the lines of the Patridge type, square post and notch. Again a concession to old eyes and the distance that I'd use a shotgun. I've used GRS on all types of weapons over many years, just don't care for them.

If you need a bit of precision windage when using the bead, try painting a thin white line down the top of the grooved receiver where you want to line up the bead. Ya only need it to be one or two grooves wide to work for ya.

G36's Rule
03-03-2011, 16:14
OP, I have several different configurations on my shotguns. I have the 930spx and 590a1 with ghost ring sights. I get good hits out to about 50 yards with ghost rings and slugs. Some of my friends can do better by far. Downside to me would be the front sight is easy to snag on things in tight quarters.



When I started this thread, I was looking for a Mossberg 930spx. Funny thing is, a shiny object distracted me for a moment and I ended up getting a Saiga S12. :whistling:

So now I have a whole new set of issues, to include that the semi-rifle sights it has are kind of crappy.

So I give it a couple months before some synapsis fires in my small brain and I think of the 930spx again. But this has been a good thread with good info so thanks.

David Armstrong
03-03-2011, 21:11
Thunder Ranch doesn't even offer a shotgun course....
Sometimes a simple Google search will keep folks from saying rather silly things. The old TR (Texas) did offer a shotgun course, and Clint has done a pretty good video about the shotgun also. Here is a little quote form the Box-O-Truth site: "When Thunder Ranch was located in Texas, I attended Defensive Handgun I, Defensive Handgun II, and Urban Rifle classes there over the years. I was hoping to be able to attend a Defensive Shotgun class, but they moved to Oregon before I could schedule the class. I was surely disappointed." Further into the article he discusses taking a shotgun class with Clint in 2008 during one of the TR "on the road" classes. Or I guess all them folks with shotgun certificates from TR signed by Clint may just all be suffering some mass delusion, since Thunder Ranch doesn't even offer a shotgun course.... :faint:
Its just that you keep mixing apples and oranges. The only difference between Home Defense and "Combat" are semantics. In either case we are talking close quarters fighting.
Combat can include using the shotgun in a very different context than home defense. I can assure you that a lot of soldiers who have used the shotgun for combat will argue quite strongly that it is quite different from home defense. If you are talking about close quarters fighting only, the bead sight is faster and easier to work with.
As I pointed out. Sporting use of a shotgun has almost NO bearing on the home defense/tactical use of a shotgun.
True, but the how one uses the sights and how the sights operate does not change.
If you use proper form when shooting at moving targets like clay pigeons and ducks YOU DO NOT LOOK AT THE bead. Your focus is entirely on the target. The bead only serves as a quick reference that everything is aligned properly when you mount the shotgun.
Just like what you do when using the shotgun for HD.
And you can miss with a shotgun at 5 yards. Can't tell you how many 100 straights I blew on station 8 shooting at targets 6-7 yards away.
You can miss with anything if you don't shoot it properly. If you miss a man-sized target at 5 yards the problem is not with the sights.
If a bead is so fast why don't competitors use them on handguns?
Because the handgun games emphasize precise accuracy. And FWIW whenever possible it seems handgun competitors DO use a bead analogy, the red-dot. You sure don't see many ghost rings!
In my mind the speed difference between a bead and GRS on a shotgun is irrelevant.
But the issue isn't what is in your mind. Folks have tested this sort of stuff and developed different sights for different purposes because they have found differences.
You should be no faster or slower with a bead as opposed to a GRS because the flash sight picture you observe as you begin your trigger pull is exactly the same regardless and should only confirm you are pointed in the right direction/center of mass.
I suppose you could be right and Farnam, Smith, and Emerson could be wrong, as well as the British Army (which also did extensive research on the shotgun with different sights). Of course, I suppose the folks who say we faked the Moon landing could be right also. But I doubt it.
Because the rear sight provides an almost unconcious aligment at the rear of the shotgun WILL be more accurate. At any distance.
Yes, and that almost unconscious alignment will also be slower for most.
If you use a set of ghost rings correctly your complete focus is on the front sight...just like a bead. But with a GRS the rear sight compensates for less than ideal fit and stance common to the encounters one might find himself in with a combat--excuse me--home defense shotgun!
As pointed out, I know how the ghost ring works. Farnam knows how the ghost ring works, Smith and Emerson know how the ghost ring works. Nobody disagrees with that. My point is rather simple...there is a trade-off between the accuracy of the ghost ring and the speed of the bead. Thus to claim that ghost ring sights are superior in every way and that they are as fast or faster than a bead is incorrect. That is why Ashley, after working so long on designing ghost ring sights, began modifying his Express Sight concept for shotgun use...to get the speed back while providing an method for precise accuracy when needed.

Victoriagotagun
03-04-2011, 08:07
Sometimes a simple Google search will keep folks from saying rather silly things. The old TR (Texas) did offer a shotgun course, and Clint has done a pretty good video about the shotgun also. Here is a little quote form the Box-O-Truth site: "When Thunder Ranch was located in Texas, I attended Defensive Handgun I, Defensive Handgun II, and Urban Rifle classes there over the years. I was hoping to be able to attend a Defensive Shotgun class, but they moved to Oregon before I could schedule the class. I was surely disappointed." Further into the article he discusses taking a shotgun class with Clint in 2008 during one of the TR "on the road" classes. Or I guess all them folks with shotgun certificates from TR signed by Clint may just all be suffering some mass delusion, since Thunder Ranch doesn't even offer a shotgun course.... :faint:


A google search of Thunder Ranch shows they don't list shotgun classes at their Oregon location.

David Armstrong
03-04-2011, 12:16
A google search of Thunder Ranch shows they don't list shotgun classes at their Oregon location.
They don't offer them at the Oregon location ordinarily. The shotgun class is part of their traveling show now, like the Pre-1900 class.

DRAGON1970
03-04-2011, 13:18
They aren't opinions, they are facts. What might be best for you in one situation may be bad for someone else in a different situation. There is a reason you don't see many ghost rings on guns used in trap and skeet and clays, where you need to get on target fast while maintaining a wide field of view.

This is still your opinion. Some of us are skilled enough to use both. I shoot skeet and 3-gun. Either works for me.

Big Bird
03-04-2011, 18:09
Jeff Cooper, "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" Page 196-197

As yet, we have seen few [shotguns] equipped with "ghopst rin" rear sights, and we find that a large part of our gunsmithing in the shotgun course consists of fitting large, thin rim, receiver sights to student's shotguns. To those who are amazed at the thought of putting any sort of rear sight on a shotgun, we can prove that the ghost ring really works, and few people leave their training sessions [at Gunsite] with anything else.

It is doubtless true that the master wing shot does not need any sights, since he accommodates the stock of the weapon to himself and merely points, keeping his eyes on the flying target and allowing nature to take its course. This is one of the principle areas in which sporting shotgunning differs from combat shotgunning. It has, like other considerations to do with range.

We refer to that range at which the shot pattern has not had a chance to open up as the "A Range". Up to seven or eight paces the shotgun must be used like a rifle. It cannot be simply waived at an adversary, but must be handled to place its small-diameter shot charge exactly on target. This can be done without sights but it is faster and easier with a ghost ring.

....Thus it is that while we can take extension magazines or leave them, and that we find collapsible stocks uncomfortable, we discover a good set of sights to be a primary "desideratum" on any social shotgun. "

Here's what Gabe Suarez says about sights on tactical shotguns in his definitive work: "The Combat Shotgun"

"The standard barrel mounted rifle sights will do, but the Jeff Cooper-rediscovered ghost ring sights are the best choice by far....It matches the speed of a bead-equipped gun up close and allows greater accuracy in delivering the slug....

Except for situations where you can literally touch an adversary with the gun muzzle, using shotgun sights is essential if you hope to hit anything. There are those who claim that a shotgun must be pointed instinctively and not aimed. Don't you believe it."

Victoriagotagun
03-04-2011, 19:43
Here's what Gabe Suarez says about sights on tactical shotguns in his definitive work: "The Combat Shotgun"

"The standard barrel mounted rifle sights will do, but the Jeff Cooper-rediscovered ghost ring sights are the best choice by far....It matches the speed of a bead-equipped gun up close and allows greater accuracy in delivering the slug....

Except for situations where you can literally touch an adversary with the gun muzzle, using shotgun sights is essential if you hope to hit anything. There are those who claim that a shotgun must be pointed instinctively and not aimed. Don't you believe it."

Gabe Suarez also said this:

Things You Do Not Need:
Ghost Ring Sights: In my opinion, the shotgun is NOT a rifle, nor should it be turned into one. The idea that you must somehow be able to reach out past CQB distances with a shotgun is a silly idea. Even the much discussed North Hollywood Bank Robbery involved shots within pistol range, and not way out there in rifle land.

It boils down to using what you best suits you and train with it.

Goldstar225
03-05-2011, 07:14
For my use, I prefer Ghost Rings. If I were setting up a home defense shotgun I would stick with a bead.

CAcop
03-05-2011, 10:48
I am curious as to what the crowd thinks about this.

In terms of speed of use only it is in order: bead, ghost, rifle.

In terms of accuracy only it is in order: rifle, ghost, bead.

Is this why the debate rages so often? Ghost rings are a compromise that works out well while beads you give up a lot to gain a lot.

Big Bird
03-05-2011, 11:06
I am curious as to what the crowd thinks about this.

In terms of speed of use only it is in order: bead, ghost, rifle.

In terms of accuracy only it is in order: rifle, ghost, bead.

Is this why the debate rages so often? Ghost rings are a compromise that works out well while beads you give up a lot to gain a lot.


It depends on what you train with and are used to.

To say that one sight is faster than the other is ludicrous. I still don't get the whole bead vs. ghost ring argument unless you believe you should use a tactical shotgun like a sporting shotgun. In which case its irrelevant which sight you use because you don't look at the sight anyhow.

I'm of the school that your focus when you engage a target with a tactical shotgun is on the front sight. Just as it should be if you were carrying an open sighted rifle or pistol. Some people will argue that you point a tactical shotgun the same way you point a sporting shotgun. Fine... I disagree for many reasons. But if you believe you handle a tactical shotgun like a sporting shotgun your sight selection is irrelevant because you are not looking at it anyways.

However, if you are of the school that believes you need to focus on the front sight and use a flash sight picture for shooting even up close then I can't seem to understand how a small bead beats a large front sight like you get with a good set of ghost rings. Its like saying a tiny front sight on your handgun is quicker and beats a nice big combat style front sight...it makes no sense.

Defensive shotgun shooting at close range requires the same accuracy in terms of shot placement as a handgun--period.

David Armstrong
03-05-2011, 12:24
This is still your opinion. Some of us are skilled enough to use both. I shoot skeet and 3-gun. Either works for me.
No. Given that there have been tests to compare the effectiveness, and that the effectiveness has been quantified by the testing, it is fact, not opinion.

David Armstrong
03-05-2011, 12:29
I am curious as to what the crowd thinks about this.

In terms of speed of use only it is in order: bead, ghost, rifle.

In terms of accuracy only it is in order: rifle, ghost, bead.

Is this why the debate rages so often? Ghost rings are a compromise that works out well while beads you give up a lot to gain a lot.
I think you are probably right. It always amazes me at how some folks have drank the Kool-aid on something so they then want to argue that their choice is the only good choice for everything. Bead shooters recognize the bead is fastest but gives up accuracy. Rifle sights give better accuracy but give up speed. Ghost rings give up a little speed and a little accuracy, but only the ghost ring fans seem to argue they are not a compromise and that all the testing doesn't matter.

sambeaux2249
03-05-2011, 22:58
No. Given that there have been tests to compare the effectiveness, and that the effectiveness has been quantified by the testing, it is fact, not opinion.

Where can I find information on these studies? Were the studies conducted on experienced shotgunners or new shooters?

I'm curious to see if I'm the only one that is both slower and less accurate with a bead...

I won't argue that a bead sight is faster for some or even most people. I just know it's slower for me because I have to think about where to put the bead to hit where I want.

Sam

David Armstrong
03-08-2011, 12:19
Where can I find information on these studies? Were the studies conducted on experienced shotgunners or new shooters?

I'm curious to see if I'm the only one that is both slower and less accurate with a bead...

I won't argue that a bead sight is faster for some or even most people. I just know it's slower for me because I have to think about where to put the bead to hit where I want.

Sam
Contact the British Military Dept. for information their testing of shotguns.
Contact Ashley Emerson for information on his studies in developing the MMC Ghost Ring sight and the Ashley Express Sight.
That's about the best I can do for right now. I know what the findings were but after all these years I don't have the data source available. Virtually all of the on-line discussion is on "which is best" not "which is faster", and there is plenty of disagreement on each side.

Big Bird
03-08-2011, 16:23
I'd be interested in seeing the British Army report especially since their current issue shotgun sports ghost rings. Although in the interest of full disclosure it looks like the EOTECH is the primary sight system on their Benellis.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/17927.aspx

CAcop
03-08-2011, 22:37
And the red dot scope is probably where everyone will be in a few years when it comes to shotguns. Especially if the KSG lights a fire under more mainstream makers. That thing was made for cowitnessed irons and red dot. People will be making statements around here that if you don't have a red dot on your shotgun you are going to get killed.

David Armstrong
03-09-2011, 10:07
I'd be interested in seeing the British Army report especially since their current issue shotgun sports ghost rings. Although in the interest of full disclosure it looks like the EOTECH is the primary sight system on their Benellis.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/17927.aspx
As the shotgun becomes more of a combat weapon as opposed to a defensive firearm the ghost ring makes more sense, as longer range accuracy becomes more important.

BailRecoveryAgent
03-09-2011, 11:03
As of right now, I prefer the bead for my HD 870 I just picked up on saturday, but that is mostly because I have only used a shotgun with ghost ring sights one time, and am more familiar with the bead.

My Remington Sportsman 48 16 gauge has a bead sight, and its the only shotgun I have a lot of experience shooting, and that is just at the gravel pit blowing up aluminum cans or shooting clay pigeons.

I'm going to put my new 870 through the paces this saturday with an assortment of slugs, buckshot, and the 12 gauge bulk stuff from Wal-Mart to see if I'm as happy with the bead on an 18" barrel as I am on a 28" barrel. I'm confident in the bead for cqb/hd stuff, but we'll see with slugs and buckshot at yardages out to 50+.

DRAGON1970
03-19-2011, 15:26
No. Given that there have been tests to compare the effectiveness, and that the effectiveness has been quantified by the testing, it is fact, not opinion.

All "tests" can still be very subjective. Please provide details on how the test was performed. ALL results can be curved one way or the other depending on who is trying to prove what.

I am calling B.S. How can someone else tell me what is most effective for me??????

#5xbr
03-19-2011, 19:57
if only used for self defence indoors and outdoors less than 75 yards one choice only?, it would be the ghost sights. You dont want to lose your side vision in any situation

Glolt20-91
03-20-2011, 00:26
I've mounted a C-MORE HUD on my FN SLP, very fast and very accurate, even while moving and engaging multiple targets.

Bob :cowboy:

Z71bill
03-20-2011, 08:32
I am already on record saying a like regular bead sights - some of my shotguns also have a ribbed barrel -


But really - how much difference can it make in a home defence situation?

Good thing I had ________ sights on my Remington 870 when those two guys broke into my home - if I would have been using ________ or ______ sights I would not have had a chance.

No doubt if you are making long range slug shots something more than a bead would be a benefit - :upeyes:

This is an example of two different ways to look at a SD/HD gun.

The maybe someday you may need it so add it on VS keep it simple.

Same sort of thing with a sling - light - heat shield - adjustable stock - mag tube extension - side saddle - camo paint - bayonet - laser - forend mounted Geiger counter - breacher barrel - over sized safety :rofl:

Everyone must decide what is needed and what is wanted - some things most agree add valuable function (mag tube extension) and there is nothing wrong with just wanting something because you think it looks cool.

But there is a point where you have so many doo-dads hooked onto your shotgun that when you pull it out at the shooting range people LOL.


:wavey:

sambeaux2249
03-20-2011, 09:16
I am already on record saying a like regular bead sights - some of my shotguns also have a ribbed barrel -


But really - how much difference can it make in a home defence situation?

Good thing I had ________ sights on my Remington 870 when those two guys broke into my home - if I would have been using ________ or ______ sights I would not have had a chance.

No doubt if you are making long range slug shots something more than a bead would be a benefit - :upeyes:

This is an example of two different ways to look at a SD/HD gun.

The maybe someday you may need it so add it on VS keep it simple.

Same sort of thing with a sling - light - heat shield - adjustable stock - mag tube extension - side saddle - camo paint - bayonet - laser - forend mounted Geiger counter - breacher barrel - over sized safety :rofl:

Everyone must decide what is needed and what is wanted - some things most agree add valuable function (mag tube extension) and there is nothing wrong with just wanting something because you think it looks cool.

But there is a point where you have so many doo-dads hooked onto your shotgun that when you pull it out at the shooting range people LOL.


:wavey:

I agree. In general, my home defense guns have an extended mag tube, a light, a better than factory recoil pad, and some method to carry extra ammo. On the other hand, all my defense shotguns, save one, have either rifle sights or ghost rings. I am vastly more comfortable with sights than I am with a bead.

Sam

David Armstrong
03-20-2011, 15:35
All "tests" can still be very subjective. Please provide details on how the test was performed. ALL results can be curved one way or the other depending on who is trying to prove what.

I am calling B.S. How can someone else tell me what is most effective for me??????
Let's see now, you admit you don't have any details of the testing, apparently aren't familiar with the tests, but you start off by calling them BS? Sounds like the only person trying to curve something here is you.:upeyes:

fudo
03-20-2011, 16:22
I put British express type rifle sights on my SXS HD 12Ga. 25 years ago.
Express sights are meant to be used on large, dangerous things that are very close.
Now that my eyes are not what they used to be, I'm setting up a couple of pump guns with the Express sights with the "Big Dot" tritium front sight.

marlinfan
03-21-2011, 19:30
My deer gun, HD gun, and 3-gun match shotguns are all the same gun! It's an 18" 870 police with a bead site that I've had forever. I think it's all what you spend the most trigger time on. I'm comfortable with slugs out of that gun out to 75 yards on deer, so it's just a matter of preference once you put a couple thousand round down range.

pmwglock19
03-21-2011, 19:53
I agree that it is what you are comfortable with as far as sites. When I bought my hd/3 gun shotgun, I found that a bead site works well for me. I haven't missed yet with the SG. My son also tried it and found that he also couldn't miss the steel in the 3 gun match. That is strictly my opnion and what works for me. Others may agree or disagree, but it works for me.

Glolt20-91
03-23-2011, 12:03
Let's see now, you admit you don't have any details of the testing, apparently aren't familiar with the tests, but you start off by calling them BS? Sounds like the only person trying to curve something here is you.:upeyes:

Of the speed tests you refer to, were the targets (plural) placed in linear (line of sight with cheek weld) or spatial (peripheral with head off stock) positions???

What were the test lighting conditions?

FWIW, I have a scandium N-frame tactical rail revolver that comes from the Performance Center with a brass bead front sight, it's easy to pick up on in low light situations . . . but then who uses sights at short ranges?

Bob :cowboy:

David Armstrong
03-23-2011, 13:14
Of the speed tests you refer to, were the targets (plural) placed in linear (line of sight with cheek weld) or spatial (peripheral with head off stock) positions???
Varied, as did starting/carry positions and other field details.
What were the test lighting conditions?
Again, varied.
FWIW, I have a scandium N-frame tactical rail revolver that comes from the Performance Center with a brass bead front sight, it's easy to pick up on in low light situations . . . but then who uses sights at short ranges?
Lot's of folks.

My info posted is what I remember from the MoD testing. I didn't see any real need to grill Ashley about his protocol given his background in sight design and testing.