North Carolina Alcohol Law Enforcement Drops Kimber [Archive] - Glock Talk

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polizei1
02-06-2011, 10:42
NC ALE drops Kimber due to some issues it seems.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=302740

News article:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/02/06/2039969/costly-ale-guns-fail-get-traded.html

Interesting read to say the least.

cdunn
02-06-2011, 10:48
if they would have asked me it would have saved them some time.they could have went straight to something good.it makes me laugh.

brisk21
02-06-2011, 10:49
Well that sucks for Kimber. I wonder if they were using Kimber magazines? I wonder if they tried some good magazines? Possibly could have saved them from having to replace these guns.

MD357
02-06-2011, 10:54
But here is a dity little secret nobody in the gun-store will admit, even to themselves. Most gun owners don't shoot much. Even the ones who "think" they do, don't. And even the ones who can recount some legitimately high round-count day to weekend, do so since it was such an anomaly.

Bottom line. People start shooting at any sort of real volume, it is amazing what brands start to fail, or have parts that need to be replaced. And I am not talking the occasional thing like my Kimbers, GS. I mean the same parts, on the same guns, every year.


QFT. Add the FPS that has been known to fail, I'm surprised these go into harms way on a regular basis.

MD357
02-06-2011, 10:55
Well that sucks for Kimber. I wonder if they were using Kimber magazines? I wonder if they tried some good magazines? Possibly could have saved them from having to replace these guns.

How would using Kimber mags keep the safety and sights from falling off? :supergrin:

Nickpisp
02-06-2011, 11:02
Mine doesn't even have a "safety button", it must've already fallen off.

Rinspeed
02-06-2011, 11:13
The Kimbers replaced Sig Sauer handguns bought in 2003 and 2005 for about $685 each. The Sig pistols, which Chandler said were worn out, were declared "surplus" and sold to agents for $326.




What a joke. :upeyes:

BuckyP
02-06-2011, 11:22
:popcorn:

glock2740
02-06-2011, 11:35
Well personally I don't believe a word of it. If the safties were falling off, then those were Taurus PT1911's and the reporter just didn't do a very good job of getting his facts straight. :rofl:

TSAX
02-06-2011, 11:47
Well personally I don't believe a word of it. If the safties were falling off, then those were Taurus PT1911's and the reporter just didn't do a very good job of getting his facts straight. :rofl:

Agreed, how the hell did the safety fall out on that many guns, did they dismantle for cleaning and not put it back right. I have heard issues with Kimbers but never a safety failing out. There is more here and the reporter probably doesn't know much about guns :dunno:

"Ledford said, his agents documented 289 malfunctions with the pistols during training exercises."

Ruggles
02-06-2011, 12:21
So Kimber bad = Sig good in handguns

and Sig bad = Bushmaster good in rifles.

Seems to be a odd circle :)

Now how the heck do I get that $1 for a handgun deal ?

Nickpisp
02-06-2011, 12:32
So Kimber bad = Sig good in handguns

and Sig bad = Bushmaster good in rifles.

Seems to be a odd circle :)

Now how the heck do I get that $1 for a handgun deal ?


You should go to work for that Dept. You can buy their 2 yr old worn out guns and get your duty gun for a buck when you retire. :supergrin:

Hokie1911
02-06-2011, 12:33
I'd gladly take one of those "worn out" $326 Sigs. :whistling:

kimberguy
02-06-2011, 12:44
I'd gladly take one of those "worn out" $326 Sigs. :whistling:

I second that!

GeorgiaRedfish
02-06-2011, 13:07
Where is Nick with his new favorite word?:rofl:

1 old 0311
02-06-2011, 13:07
At one time Kimber made a EXCELLENT weapon. They established their name, and started cutting corners.:dunno:

cdunn
02-06-2011, 13:15
At one time Kimber made a EXCELLENT weapon. They established their name, and started cutting corners.:dunno:

reminds me of some restaurants I use to go to.:supergrin:

Nickpisp
02-06-2011, 13:40
Where is Nick with his new favorite word?:rofl:

Unverified!

GeorgiaRedfish
02-06-2011, 13:43
Unverified!
This Kimber thread is officially a Kimber thread.:rofl:

ericridebike
02-06-2011, 13:57
Yeah, sounds like they have a pretty sweet gig going, upgrading every couple of years and allowing their agents to buy the "old" guns at deeply discounted rates. Upgrading also from trading Sig assault rifles to Bushmaster M4's with EoTech's in Class 3 configuration. I bet the traded Sig rifles had some sort of EoTech/Aimpoint on it that didn't get traded with it & ended up at home with some agents. Sucks to know this agency that is in my state is "needing" to upgrade so often. I know they claim the funds were from confiscated money, but I'm sure that money could have gone to something more worthwhile that my taxes are currently paying for. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of law enforcement being equipped with quality, reliable weapons, but their practice seems a bit suspect. From what the article said, they were exempt from having to go through bidding processes for new weapons, because they were just trading guns. Hopefully this article will shed some light on their practices and ensure they don't abuse the process. I think the NC ALE is getting as much if not more bad press than Kimber over this, at least here locally. I frankly wonder if the whole issue with Kimber being unreliable is completely accurate or just another excuse to get new guns.

Nakanokalronin
02-06-2011, 13:58
If they were talking about the right side of a factory ambi safety falling out then that is quite common on many production 1911s. Caspian is the only one that makes a decent type which is what I put into my Colt Rail gun after taking the right grip panel off and the lever literally fell out of the hole. It was brand new when this happened. This is the only Ambi safety I think is worth paying for.

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/132/l_5f2b91dbebe743ad8967a25d4346f6fa.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=62298/pid=32437/Product/AMBI_INTERNAL_LOCKING_THUMB_SAFETY_SS

If they where using stock Kimber mags its no surprise about the jams. Even if they replaced them, who knows what they used. Could of been a bunch of cheap no-name mags picked up at a large quantity discount.

Also from the article:
Faith in Kimber
Chandler, the former director, says he hasn't had any problems with his Kimber service weapon.
"I have no qualms about carrying the weapon," said Chandler, who is a reserve ALE agent.
State Sen. Ed Jones, a retired state trooper, said he was concerned about how often ALE was buying new weapons. In his 30-year career with the Highway Patrol, Jones said, he was issued three pistols.
"I want officer safety to be foremost, but a weapon ought to last more than a year and a half," said Jones, a Democrat from Enfield. "Even the sorriest weapon ought to last that long."


Link to article for the sue happy: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/02/06/2039969/costly-ale-guns-fail-get-traded.html

They used confiscated drug money to buy the guns and it seems they are going through side arms quite frequently,especially since they have stated they barely get into any shoot-outs. If they wore out the Sigs and Kimbers in a short time frame then they must have officers that practice more than any other police agency I've heard of. Something doesn't add up.

Ascout
02-06-2011, 14:17
They used confiscated drug money to buy the guns and it seems they are going through side arms quite frequently,especially since they have stated they barely get into any shoot-outs. If they wore out the Sigs and Kimbers in a short time frame then they must have officers that practice more than any other police agency I've heard of. Something doesn't add up.
[/COLOR]

[/LEFT]

Particularly since they don't show up executing alcohol warrants with their hands on their pistols. I grew up here, and I know the drill.

Navitimer
02-06-2011, 14:54
The Observer is a terrible paper - biased and super liberal. I'm surprised they didn't get confused and describe the Kimbers as AK assault rifles. The silly Alcohol Law Enforcement is another useless branch of NC's government. NC, unlike many other states, refuses to privatize liquor sales, and accordingly all the liquor stores are government run, with a slew of government workers to regulate the whole process surrounding the purchasing, distribution and sale of alcohol. As an NC taxpayer, I'm all for saving money in an already heavily-taxed state. Surprise, surprise that they waste money on their firearms purchases too.

R0CKETMAN
02-06-2011, 16:31
Unreliable Kimber? Never heard that before:rofl:

FYI, I'm a self proclaimed Kimber hater.

Jack Black
02-06-2011, 17:25
The article I saw showed a picture of an Ultra (3") size pistol. AFAIK, buying the shorter 1911s is not the best way to ensure reliability.

Anyway, it sounds like Chandler just wanted a new gun, and he found a way to add to his collection on the cheap every few years.

Nakanokalronin
02-06-2011, 19:23
The article I saw showed a picture of an Ultra (3") size pistol. AFAIK, buying the shorter 1911s is not the best way to ensure reliability.

Anyway, it sounds like Chandler just wanted a new gun, and he found a way to add to his collection on the cheap every few years.

The part in red is my other thought on the subject. Hate to say it but if they go through pistols that fast, why not buy Glocks? Oh yea thats right, they wouldn't want to bother buying a utility pistol at a discounted price when they can use seized money to buy whatever pretty guns they want and then own them in a year or two.

samuse
02-06-2011, 19:33
:rofl::rofl:

FM12
02-06-2011, 21:51
I personally witnessed a ambi safety break on a Kimber once upon a time. Iwas a range officer and it happened to the personal pistol of one of our deputies. Put it out of comission, had to go back to kimber. i swore them off then and there.

cole
02-07-2011, 00:53
The 1911 is a poor choice for the rank-n-file anyway. Good decision IMO because it was a bad decision to choose the 1911 to begin with. I prefer the 1911, but it's less ideal for joe/jane anybody. The Glock, Sig and XD are all better choices for this application... KISS principle at work.

MD357
02-07-2011, 08:39
The excuses are getting impressive. :rofl:

The 1911 is a poor choice for the rank-n-file anyway. Good decision IMO because it was a bad decision to choose the 1911 to begin with. I prefer the 1911, but it's less ideal for joe/jane anybody.

Yep there's no way "regular Joes" could be taught to use and care for the 1911 on a large scale. :whistling:

Hokie1911
02-07-2011, 09:31
The excuses are getting impressive. :rofl:

Yep there's no way "regular Joes" could be taught to use and care for the 1911 on a large scale. :whistling:

I hear ya MD. These guys would have been better off with a Glock. No idea how they were able to train them and how those inferior pistols even functioned since they weren't kept pristine.

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflaga2.gif

Nickpisp
02-07-2011, 09:46
I hear ya MD. These guys would have been better off with a Glock. No idea how they were able to train them and how those inferior pistols even functioned since they weren't kept pristine.




Sheeeeet.........if they'd have had G19's and some 33 rd combat clips WW2 would've been over in 6 months.

Z28ricer
02-07-2011, 09:57
Sheeeeet.........if they'd have had G18's and some 33 rd combat clips, and RA9TA's, WW2 would've been over in 6 months.


Fixed for ya :tongueout:

GeorgiaRedfish
02-07-2011, 10:00
The excuses are getting impressive. :rofl:



Yep there's no way "regular Joes" could be taught to use and care for the 1911 on a large scale. :whistling:

I hear ya MD. These guys would have been better off with a Glock. No idea how they were able to train them and how those inferior pistols even functioned since they weren't kept pristine.

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/lflaga2.gif

Lmao FACE!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

GeorgiaRedfish
02-07-2011, 10:01
Sheeeeet.........if they'd have had G19's and some 33 rd combat magazines, and RA9TA's WW2 would've been over in 6 months.
Fixed it again

Z28ricer
02-07-2011, 10:03
Fixed it again

:rofl:

Nickpisp
02-07-2011, 10:07
Fixed it again


The news said the Tucson guys used "33 rd combat clips". Don't come in here and try to confuse things with your correct terminology.

GeorgiaRedfish
02-07-2011, 10:10
The news said the Tucson guys used "33 rd combat clips". Don't come in here and try to confuse things with your correct terminology.
Damn next thing you are going to tell me is Sarah Palin pretty much did it.

Nickpisp
02-07-2011, 10:11
Sarah Palin did it.


Unverified.

GeorgiaRedfish
02-07-2011, 10:14
She put crosshairs on a map! Come on man, she is a JumberJack terrorist.

Don't be ignant.

MD357
02-07-2011, 10:47
Sheeeeet.........if they'd have had G19's and some 33 rd combat clips WW2 would've been over in 6 months.

Well, in all fairness, the Germans used 9mm and look where it got them. :cool:

Nickpisp
02-07-2011, 10:57
Well, in all fairness, the Germans used 9mm and look where it got them. :cool:


They didn't have Glock Perfection though.

AA#5
02-07-2011, 11:03
Replaced worn-out Sig pistols with Kimbers?? Really stupid.

:faint:

A worn-out Sig is still better than a new Kimber.

GeorgiaRedfish
02-07-2011, 11:07
You all a bunch of MIMber haters.

Hokie1911
02-07-2011, 12:05
They didn't have Glock Perfection though.

Well they should have since they took over Austria. Duh.

KY Moose
02-07-2011, 12:22
NC ALE.


NC ALE sounds more like a beer than an enforcement agency.

mrsurfboard
02-07-2011, 12:40
The excuses are getting impressive. :rofl:



Yep there's no way "regular Joes" could be taught to use and care for the 1911 on a large scale. :whistling:

Not cops. We have a few guys in my place that have problems keeping the Glock clean.

SportsmansLodgeGlock
02-07-2011, 12:47
The ALE in my area do alot more than just liquor license checks and chase bootlegers. I was on the way back from the county jail and passed our areas ALE agent who had 5 cars pulled over (at once) for DWI. They have full arrest powers. Most of whom are fromer local officers or deputies or even SBI agents.

When they got the new kimbers I was just in BLET and one of the instructors was our areas ALE agent. We talked about them switching from the sig to the kimber and he was happy with the switch. I haven't talked to him since so I do not know what the problems are with the pistols. The reason I was told they switch weapons so often is because they have so much money left from seizures and budget that they need to spend it on something or they will lose it so why not get new guns? You would too if you had all that money left over.

Nickpisp
02-07-2011, 13:09
Well they should have since they took over Austria. Duh.

Maybe they were waiting for Gen 3. :dunno:

polizei1
02-07-2011, 13:38
Hey, my grandfather was a few Marines away from being in that photo. 1911's were far superior then, and are far superior now.

cole
02-07-2011, 19:42
The excuses are getting impressive. :rofl:

Yep there's no way "regular Joes" could be taught to use and care for the 1911 on a large scale. :whistling:

Umm... Are you really saying the 1911 is a more simple gun to operate and maintain? The world is not GT. (And, the GIs that carried the 1911 did not carry it C1.)

Most people are not "gun people". Most cops are not "gun people". I consider these types "novices". The 1911, IMO, is not the ideal choice for novices. (Note emphasis on ideal.)

It's not 1911 any more, or the 1940s, or the 1970s. Today, I believe there are simply better choices for a standard issue sidearm (and the Sig P220 is one of them).

However, I prefer the 1911 and it's the better choice for me much of the time. But, it would never be my first choice for a standard issue sidearm.

South Fla
02-07-2011, 20:08
Maybe they were waiting for Gen 3. :dunno:

Nope.

They were waiting on the single-stack Glock. :whistling:

Ruggles
02-07-2011, 20:09
Umm... Are you really saying the 1911 is a more simple gun to operate and maintain? The world is not GT. (And, the GIs that carried the 1911 did not carry it C1.)

Most people are not "gun people". Most cops are not "gun people". I consider these types "novices". The 1911, IMO, is not the ideal choice for novices. (Note emphasis on ideal.)

It's not 1911 any more, or the 1940s, or the 1970s. Today, I believe there are simply better choices for a standard issue sidearm (and the Sig P220 is one of them).

However, I prefer the 1911 and it's the better choice for me much of the time. But, it would never be my first choice for a standard issue sidearm.

Good logic but I am not sure I completely agree with you. The simplistic nature of the 1911 is a huge bonus when training folks IMO.

It is a more forgiving gun than some others when incorrectly handled by the novice due to it slide/thumb safety. It only has one type of trigger action unlike DA semi autos to teach and train. No worry about what position the hammer is in after firing less than a full mag, just engage the same lever up that you engaged down to fire. No decocker or safety/decocker combo to confuse them with. The trigger pull and ergonomics greatly aid accuracy which builds confidence in the new shooter. Not perfect maybe but a very easy gun to train others with. At least in my limited experience in training others.

Maintaining and cleaning, no doubt there are easier guns to teach that with. Many guns are far easier to take apart and replace parts on if needed.

I really do think that 100 years in service speaks volumes about it ability to be easily taught to the masses.

Not disagreeing with you overall but just wanted to throw my .02 in as I do not agree the 1911 is an "experts" only type handgun.

rsxr22
02-07-2011, 20:35
Good logic but I am not sure I completely agree with you. The simplistic nature of the 1911 is a huge bonus when training folks IMO.

It is a more forgiving gun than some others when incorrectly handled by the novice due to it slide/thumb safety. It only has one type of trigger action unlike DA semi autos to teach and train. No worry about what position the hammer is in after firing less than a full mag, just engage the same lever up that you engaged down to fire. No decocker or safety/decocker combo to confuse them with. The trigger pull and ergonomics greatly aid accuracy which builds confidence in the new shooter. Not perfect maybe but a very easy gun to train others with. At least in my limited experience in training others.

Maintaining and cleaning, no doubt there are easier guns to teach that with. Many guns are far easier to take apart and replace parts on if needed.

I really do think that 100 years in service speaks volumes about it ability to be easily taught to the masses.

Not disagreeing with you overall but just wanted to throw my .02 in as I do not agree the 1911 is an "experts" only type handgun.

No offense Ruggles, but i disagree. I dont feel that the 1911 is that great of a choice for a duty gun either. A lot of what Cole mentioned is what i believe as well. I will state I am not a LE, but worked with a few CID units during my internship for college. This changed my entire perspective on LEO's. I always thought they were shooters, but that didnt hold true IMO(ATL PD CID). I worked with many units and all of them sadly had to draw their guns a daily basis. The only guys that kept their guns meticulous and cared for were the SWAT guys. I spent a lot of time at their range shooting officers ammo that they were not going to shoot for the month and I spent probably as much time cleaning their M&P's as their armorer did!! I couldnt believe some of the stuff I saw inside their duty weapons!! I do feel the 1911 is more of a Professionals gun. Not because of the manipubility of the platform, but rather the excessive maintenance to make sure the weapon works reliably. LEO's are exposed to many different environments on a day to day basis that private citizens are not, and if their DG's are not cared for, they could and most likely will fail them in the time they need them.
This could easily be remedied by more focus on shooting and what to do after the fact, but the truth about it is, there is not much focus on firearms training! And even less is dedicated to everyday patrol officers. From what I have seen, those things are left up to the individual officer and I can tell you some are lazy and a lot are tired! The last thing I would want to do every other night after working a 12 hour shift is clean and re-lube my duty weapon and that is what I would recommend to people if they were using 1911's as DG's

Ruggles
02-07-2011, 21:04
No offense Ruggles, but i disagree. I dont feel that the 1911 is that great of a choice for a duty gun either. A lot of what Cole mentioned is what i believe as well. I will state I am not a LE, but worked with a few CID units during my internship for college. This changed my entire perspective on LEO's. I always thought they were shooters, but that didnt hold true IMO(ATL PD CID). I worked with many units and all of them sadly had to draw their guns a daily basis. The only guys that kept their guns meticulous and cared for were the SWAT guys. I spent a lot of time at their range shooting officers ammo that they were not going to shoot for the month and I spent probably as much time cleaning their M&P's as their armorer did!! I couldnt believe some of the stuff I saw inside their duty weapons!! I do feel the 1911 is more of a Professionals gun. Not because of the manipubility of the platform, but rather the excessive maintenance to make sure the weapon works reliably. LEO's are exposed to many different environments on a day to day basis that private citizens are not, and if their DG's are not cared for, they could and most likely will fail them in the time they need them.
This could easily be remedied by more focus on shooting and what to do after the fact, but the truth about it is, there is not much focus on firearms training! And even less is dedicated to everyday patrol officers. From what I have seen, those things are left up to the individual officer and I can tell you some are lazy and a lot are tired! The last thing I would want to do every other night after working a 12 hour shift is clean and re-lube my duty weapon and that is what I would recommend to people if they were using 1911's as DG's

I clearly see your point, in fact I can see both sides of the issue. I do not feel overly strong about either side of this point. I guess I was more speaking to the teaching aspect of the 1911 for new shooters as opposed to long term use. :wavey: