.40 or 9mm [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : .40 or 9mm


GLOCComa
02-09-2011, 03:32
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!

yort81
02-09-2011, 03:45
Keep the nine :) when you are shooting paper at the range....you dont need much stopping power.... and your pocketbook with thank you at the end of the month.

Besides.... those guys that like the .45 and the 40 cant hit anything anyway :P

argento
02-09-2011, 04:10
I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power.

What are you trying to stop? An NFL center?

CitizenOfDreams
02-09-2011, 04:24
There is nothing wrong with your 9mm Glock. You are watching too many Youtube videos.

Sammael
02-09-2011, 04:47
http://archive.perfectduluthday.com/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

boomhower
02-09-2011, 04:47
A proper 9mm round has plenty of stopping power. If I didn't have to carry a 40 I wouldn't own one, either 45 or 9mm would be my choice.

SARGENT AT ARMS
02-09-2011, 04:48
Theirs nothing wrong with a 9mm. There are plenty of hot loads out there you can shoot out of a 9mm. That do just as much damage as a .40 trust me.

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 04:59
Trade it for the G22 that way you will have 3 guns in one. You can shoot 9mm and .40 and .357 Sig with just a change of the barrels. You will have to get a few G19 mags but your G22 mags will work with .357 Sig rounds.:thumbsup:

j-glock22
02-09-2011, 05:00
I've had .40 and .45's, now all 9's for budget and simplification for ammo. I don't feel any less powered than when I had my .40 collection. a 124gr +p 9mm will serve you well.

skeeter7
02-09-2011, 05:08
I actually have a G23 and wished I got the G19 instead because of ammo prices. I would say keep the 9mm and don't regret it, especially if it will be used as a range gun. Good Luck!

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 05:12
I actually have a G23 and wished I got the G19 instead because of ammo prices. I would say keep the 9mm and don't regret it, especially if it will be used as a range gun. Good Luck!

Why not get a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel? :dunno:

mainegunner
02-09-2011, 05:13
Personally I don't care for the 40 s&w round it's a little snappy for me. I have a G19 which I think is just about the best glock out there next to my G38. Good bullets and shot placement.

James Dean
02-09-2011, 05:18
Your best bet is to rent a G22 snd shoot them side by side I did that and found that the 9mm is a great round. Than that day went and rented a Sig P229. That day I shot my G19, my G23 and that rented Sig. I found I really like my G19, and that Sig P229 in.40

hooterman
02-09-2011, 05:53
With the technological improvements of today's projectiles and propellants, the 9 mm diameter bullet is very effective. We give it to our kids who are fighting for our freedom to use to protect themselves.

gumby223
02-09-2011, 05:58
Personally I don't care for the 40 s&w round it's a little snappy for me. I have a G19 which I think is just about the best glock out there next to my G38. Good bullets and shot placement.

If the 40 is a little snappy for ya, you better not shoot a 10mm because you might wet your pants. :supergrin:

pugman
02-09-2011, 06:05
YouTube is one of four horsemen of the internet apocalypse (facebook is the second...the other two haven't emerged yet).

Keep the 9 mm; take the savings in ammo to buy more ammo and practice more.

A 9 mm or a .40 to the head will stop the biggest lineman in the NFL (its also more practical for zombies)

mrt949
02-09-2011, 06:12
Now that's funny

mrt949
02-09-2011, 06:15
.........

LASTRESORT20
02-09-2011, 06:23
~ "9 mm or a .40 to the head will stop the biggest lineman in the NFL (its also more practical for zombies)" ~

~ "Theirs nothing wrong with a 9mm. There are plenty of hot loads out there you can shoot out of a 9mm. That do just as much damage as a .40 trust me." ~

This...^

`Yes Keep the 9mm ... a very **smart move over-all ...and it has plenty of nastiness for BG`s...

Oaklane
02-09-2011, 06:24
First off, congrats on the new Glock!Keep the 17 and learn to become proficient with it first.A well placed 9mm rd trumps a missed larger caliber rd any day. Learn trigger control and shot placement with the 9mm and then step up when you think your ready. I've seen a lot of people get turned off by the .40 when it's been their first gun or only experiance shooting. These have just been my experiances, yours may differ, but that 17 will serve you well and the price difference in ammo will get you a lot more shooting time with the 17 than the 22.

diamondd2
02-09-2011, 06:41
OMG, you made a huge mistake buying the 9mm. The 9mm won't even stop the smallest guinea pig. I can help though, sell me that G17 right now for half of what you bought it for and rid yourself of the sin.

byf43
02-09-2011, 06:58
Keep the G17 and enjoy it!!
Later on, you'll want something a little smaller, so then buy the G19.
(Actually, if you can only have one. . . the G19 IS the perfect Glock!)


Now. . . you WILL want other pistols. It's just a fact of life.

The logical step up from 9mm is the .45 acp!!!

It took me years to decide on the .40. I bought the G23 after the G21, G19, G30SF (in that order).
The G23 is 'snappy', but, it's a great cartridge!


Keep this in mind while you enjoy your G17:
"A hit with a smaller caliber round beats a miss with a larger caliber round, every time."

keninnavarre
02-09-2011, 07:01
I have at least one of all the .40 and 9mm models offered by Glock. (As of yesterday, anyway. Picked up a G34 :cool:)

Id keep the G17 if it were me. We are talking about a 9mm here, not a .22
Hitting what you shoot at is much more important than worrying about the difference between 9mm and .40

For what its worth, out of all the Glocks I have in 9mm and .40, I carry my G19 or G26 daily.

Dawolf
02-09-2011, 07:29
Trade it for the G22 that way you will have 3 guns in one. You can shoot 9mm and .40 and .357 Sig with just a change of the barrels. You will have to get a few G19 mags but your G22 mags will work with .357 Sig rounds.:thumbsup:

I'll second that suggestion.

Glock4President
02-09-2011, 07:35
The 9mm has plenty of stopping power. If you have to actually use it for self defense, and you have +p ammo. You will have no problem putting the enemy down.

glockvit
02-09-2011, 07:49
I would stick with the 9mm. This way you can get in more practice time at the range with less cost and as the others have said, with the right ammo, you can't go wrong.

utahusker
02-09-2011, 07:54
Trade it for the G22 that way you will have 3 guns in one. You can shoot 9mm and .40 and .357 Sig with just a change of the barrels. You will have to get a few G19 mags but your G22 mags will work with .357 Sig rounds.:thumbsup:
I'll third this. It's not like your 17 is a collectible:supergrin: Have fun with this hobby. If you can afford it get what you want.

XDMerciless
02-09-2011, 07:55
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!

I felt the same way now after year or so with my XDm 9, in retrospect I should have gotten a 40. Not for "stopping power", but rather to have the versatility of using a conversion barrel. Reliability and issues wise, there seems to be far more documented issues with the Glock 22/23s than compared to the 17/19s, not sure if this is necessarily due to a flaw, whether inherent design or a manufacturing defect with a certain batch, and/or from the many law enforcement agencies adoption of the weapon platform simply results in a statistically wider swath of actual shooters compared to safe queens guns. Also, keep in mind that most of the modern self-defense projectiles, hollow point round between the three major calibers, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 ACP will get the job done. Assuming that you do your part. Far more people need to be concerned with proper shot placement, and training before worrying about what caliber, guns and gear.

"In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived."

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 08:00
I'm a .357 Sig fan, but good defensive 9mm ammo is very effective & cost aside, you can practice more with 9mm than something bigger because of the impact on your hand & wrist. If you can trade it in, a 19 or 23 is much easier to CCW & still makes a good range gun.

GunFighter45ACP
02-09-2011, 09:24
Keep the nine :) when you are shooting paper at the range....you dont need much stopping power.... and your pocketbook with thank you at the end of the month.

THIS. Besides, if you're in CA, you only get 10 rounds, right? Might as well go w/something altogether different, like a 19/23/30...

hooterman
02-09-2011, 09:28
I'm a .357 Sig fan, but good defensive 9mm ammo is very effective & cost aside, you can practice more with 9mm than something bigger because of the impact on your hand & wrist. If you can trade it in, a 19 or 23 is much easier to CCW & still makes a good range gun.

9mm and .357 are the same size in diameter, so is the .38 and the .380:wavey:

methodius
02-09-2011, 09:42
I have been buying and shooting handguns for 20 years and have never bought or felt the need to add a .40 caliber to my stable. I have nines and .45's a plenty and a few CnR oddball calibers to boot. I do not feel under gunned w/ the nines and certainly love the .45. Maybe someday I will get a .40 but until then it is just one of those in-between calibers that serves no real purpose for me. I mean, if I really needed a .40 caliber gun I'd get a 10mm - made as God intended the .40 to be in the first place.

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 09:42
9mm and .357 are the same size in diameter, so is the .38 and the .380:wavey:

Yeah whatever, the pointy end is the same. If you read what I posted I was not dissin the 9mm I was actually making a case for an advantage of being able to shoot more at the range. I carry .357 Sig because i think it's silly to have to shoot something twice :tongueout:

bac1023
02-09-2011, 09:56
I much prefer 9mm.

tx787
02-09-2011, 10:00
If you can hit what you are aiming at 9mm is plenty of power. If you can't hit what you are aiming at no handgun caliber can help you. If you pay attention to the news you should have recently learned that even well placed crappy target ammo can stop people in 9mm. If you prefer 40 then by all means get it though, it's your gun. Also, I think 9mm is the best caliber for the Glock platform, if you really want 40 I'd look at something else too. Well, GAP is the best Glock caliber but we all know that.

Texcowboy
02-09-2011, 10:20
I have 9mm, 40S&W, 357SIG and 45ACP and feel comfortable with any. If I could have only one gun I would keep my G32 and have one capable of 357, 40 and 9mm (I have the 40 cal barrell for the G32 but have a G22 also).

Shot placement is the main ingrediant in a defensive situation, and do a double tap.

matt c
02-09-2011, 10:21
either one is fine. 9mm is about 2 bucks less for a box of 50 practice ammo. I can't speak for everyone but I think .40 is Just as easy to shoot as 9mm. Just a tad more snap but IMO hardly noticeable.

tuf8seconds
02-09-2011, 10:24
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!

Get yourself a G31, G32 or G33(357sig.), then you'll be shooting what the big boys shoot and have plenty of stopping (blowing a hole clean through), power. That's my story and I'm stickin to it!!!!!

CopGlide
02-09-2011, 10:25
Buy whatever makes you happy enough to actually go shoot it. You're the only person who has to live with the decision...

tango44
02-09-2011, 10:29
G23 and a 40-9 conversion barrel is all you need.

Captains1911
02-09-2011, 10:56
I have both a G19 and G23. I typically carry the G23 while the G19 serves nightstand duty. I don't feel under gunned with either. As a matter of fact, I'm carrying the G19 today just because I took the G23 to the range a few days ago and haven't had a chance to clean it. I carry Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P.

I'm not a fan of 9mm conversions, but I guess they're ok for range use.

FLSlim
02-09-2011, 11:15
Either way you go, you can't go wrong with the Glock of your choice. My first was a G23 (and now I have a conversion barrel) and I haven't regretted it. But, there is nothing wrong with your choice of a 17. You can always save your pennies and buy a 40 (or 45 for that matter) sometime down the road.

Ticman
02-09-2011, 12:06
either one is fine. 9mm is about 2 bucks less for a box of 50 practice ammo. I can't speak for everyone but I think .40 is Just as easy to shoot as 9mm. Just a tad more snap but IMO hardly noticeable.

I agree. I have tested this for myself with 9mm range ammo, +p and +p+, 40 cal BB and DT ammo compared to range ammo as well as 357 from BB and DT and range ammo. The split times and accuracy were almost identical for all three calibers. I think it has more to do with shooter, the grip, and the technique than caliber or more powerful ammo. Heck, my S-I-L's G20 10mm wasn't a problem either.

If you are comfortable with the 9mm it's a proven performer on the street. Nothing wrong with any of the service calibers these days.

madAB
02-09-2011, 12:18
I have had a G22 and I sold it. I currently have a G19 and a G30. I carry the G19 daily as it is more comfortable to carry and practice ammo is cheaper so I have more practice with it. A 127gr +p+ has plenty of stopping power. As said previously, shot placement is king.

On a side note, my brother-in-law is an ER surgeon. He has seen more then his fair share of gun shot wounds. He has told me that when a GSW victim comes it's essentially impossible to differentiate the caliber of hand gun they were shot with. Any service caliber with a good self defense round will all do the job if you hit your target.

hooterman
02-09-2011, 12:25
:popcorn: This has got the makins of a another good caliber war. No my guns are not in stables and my safe is not a barn either.

ColdBlooded
02-09-2011, 12:26
Sorry for posting Youtube videos, and I know that many will discount the test, but I thought it was pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxJ8PIkM5_w&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_739456

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEEFn3nby8

Glock4President
02-09-2011, 12:28
either one is fine. 9mm is about 2 bucks less for a box of 50 practice ammo. I can't speak for everyone but I think .40 is Just as easy to shoot as 9mm. Just a tad more snap but IMO hardly noticeable.

At my range, the difference in price is at least $5.00 and usually more for a box of 50. So I guess you get yours really cheap. Even when you buy online the difference is like $5.00.

Calico Hunter
02-09-2011, 12:42
I was discussing Glocks and different calibers ( 9mm -vs- .40 ) with a LEO several weeks ago. He told me that more people are killed with .22 Caliber's than any other round ( an enormous number of weapons and shooters ); the 9mm comes in second place on that list !

A double-tap with a 9mm hollow point from a Name Brand ammo manufacture of Self Defense rounds will put-down the bad guy.

Your responsibility is to hit the Bullseye !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Member 68-69

hooterman
02-09-2011, 12:47
Sorry for posting Youtube videos, and I know that many will discount the test, but I thought it was pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxJ8PIkM5_w&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_739456

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEEFn3nby8

This is good to know if I am ever attacked by water jugs and newspapers.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Our military is putting bad guys away every day with NATO 124 grn FMJ.

Icelander513
02-09-2011, 12:48
9MM wont make an attacker any "deader" than a 40 would if you put the shots in the right spot. If you don't put the shots in the right spot the argument is moot. A pistol is a pistol and it's not an ideal defensive weapon, a rifle or a shotgun is, but a lot of times it's all we've got. Stop worrying about caliber and start practicing to become proficient with your weapon. With that said, I prefer a 9 because it's slightly easier for me to make holes where I want to make holes compared to a 40. Either way, I wish I had a 12 gauge to defend myself with if I ever need to.

PEC-Memphis
02-09-2011, 12:53
Trade it for the G22 that way you will have 3 guns in one. You can shoot 9mm and .40 and .357 Sig with just a change of the barrels. You will have to get a few G19 mags but your G22 mags will work with .357 Sig rounds.:thumbsup:

A 19 magazine will not work in a 22 with conversion barrel, He will need a 17 magazine.

hooterman
02-09-2011, 12:54
9MM wont make an attacker any "deader" than a 40 would if you put the shots in the right spot. If you don't put the shots in the right spot the argument is moot. A pistol is a pistol and it's not an ideal defensive weapon, a rifle or a shotgun is, but a lot of times it's all we've got. Stop worrying about caliber and start practicing to become proficient with your weapon. With that said, I prefer a 9 because it's slightly easier for me to make holes where I want to make holes compared to a 40. Either way, I wish I had a 12 gauge to defend myself with if I ever need to.Pistols only poke holes, 5.56 NATO and 00 buck FUBAR the situation.:wow:

ChicagoZman
02-09-2011, 12:57
9, .40 or .45 are all reasonably good if YOU do your part.

John Rambo
02-09-2011, 13:01
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!

.40 > 9mm as far as stopping power. Theres not really any debating that. But shot placement is still the determining factor. Handguns are crappy manstoppers, so aim for something vital or it won't matter what size bullets you have.

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 13:13
Our military is putting bad guys away every day with NATO 124 grn FMJ.

I keep seeing people mention NATO 9mm like that's what our boy choose to carry. It's not. It's what they have to use. My son is in Afgahnistan & I guarantee 9mm would not be his 1st choice.

Nightrain
02-09-2011, 13:25
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 9mm, they have been known to cause hydrostatic shock in shooting victims which means if you hit a bad guy in the chest it hits with enough force to cause bleeding in the brain!! enough said.

cowboy1964
02-09-2011, 13:31
A proper 9mm round has plenty of stopping power. If I didn't have to carry a 40 I wouldn't own one, either 45 or 9mm would be my choice.

Actually all these handgun rounds DON'T have plenty of stopping power. Give me a 12ga or rifle.

hooterman
02-09-2011, 13:48
I keep seeing people mention NATO 9mm like that's what our boy choose to carry. It's not. It's what they have to use. My son is in Afgahnistan & I guarantee 9mm would not be his 1st choice. So are mine and the M 4, 5.56 Nato carbine is their first choice. The M9, if at all issued, is for personal protection that's all.:whistling:.

You know there is a big difference between 1,350 feet per second and 3,165 feet a second. The latter will defiantly cause hydrostatic shock and it's only .22 caliber. Imagine that :wow:

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 13:52
I agree, speed kills ;)

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 13:59
A 19 magazine will not work in a 22 with conversion barrel, He will need a 17 magazine.

Ya thanks, I was thinking 9mm mag but typed out G19 mag. :embarassed:

glim
02-09-2011, 14:18
I keep seeing people mention NATO 9mm like that's what our boy choose to carry. It's not. It's what they have to use. My son is in Afgahnistan & I guarantee 9mm would not be his 1st choice.

He'd probably be ok with his 92F if you sent him a few cases of +P bonded hollow points:cool:

ftworthglocker
02-09-2011, 14:20
Don't fall for that whatever caliber isn't enough stopping power you need a howitzer garbage. A 9mm has more stopping power potential than you will ever be able to fully utilize unless you spend every day training.

This exact mentality reminds me of how so many "newbies" talk about their high powered dslrs they replace every year and never learn how to effectively use. While a professional with a 20 year old camera and a standard 50mm lense will blow away anything your high priced mumbo jumbo will produce.

matteblack
02-09-2011, 14:27
There is little to no difference in stopping power when comparing quality modern defense loads in 9mm and .40. Also, the 9mm is a tapered cartridge making it inherently more feed reliable. And lastly your G17 will last longer and endure more rounds over time than a G22. IMO you should keep the G17.:cool:
MB

JK-linux
02-09-2011, 14:31
A nine will stop someone just fine. Take it for what it is. Are there more powerfuly rounds? Definitely. Still, any handgun round is subject to the shot placement rule, and a 9mm to the heart is just as dead as a .40 to the heart. A 9mm that misses by 2" is just as useless as a .40 that misses by 2". Whichever one you shoot best is never a bad way to go. I have yet to hear of anyone on this forum who says that the 9mm is underpowered volunteer to be shot with even standard velocity 9mm FMJ (let alone twice center of mass).

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 14:31
And lastly your G17 will last longer and endure more rounds over time than a G22..:cool:
MB

Oh that settles it, I need to sell all my .40 caliber Glocks...:upeyes:

Sammael
02-09-2011, 14:37
.40 > 9mm as far as stopping power. Theres not really any debating that.

O rly?

Proof please?

Sonnytoo
02-09-2011, 14:37
Get the 9mm.
S2

ashecht
02-09-2011, 14:38
I dunno. Now that I have a 15 round mag/spacer for my G23, I still feel safer having 16 .40 rounds, as opposed to 16 9mm rounds. Not that I dont feel safe with my G19, just feel safer with the G23. Am I alone?

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 14:46
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Captains1911
02-09-2011, 14:51
O rly?

Proof please?

It always amuses me when people like you try and claim that a smaller less powerful caliber is just as effective as a larger one. I'm not saying that a 9mm won't suffice, but with all other factors being equal, a .40 is more powerful, plain and simple.

matteblack
02-09-2011, 14:55
Oh that settles it, I need to sell all my .40 caliber Glocks...:upeyes:

No you don't, however parts breakage is well documented by any PD that has issued both. The 9mm Glocks go longer before parts break.

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 15:00
No you don't, however parts breakage is well documented by any PD that has issued both. The 9mm Glocks go longer before parts break.

What parts break? :dunno: I've shot 1000s on 1000s on 1000s and have never had a part break on any of my .40 caliber Glocks. But I did have a recoil spring chip on my G19. :supergrin:

Sammael
02-09-2011, 15:09
It always amuses me when people like you try and claim that a smaller less powerful caliber is just as effective as a larger one. I'm not saying that a 9mm won't suffice, but with all other factors being equal, a .40 is more powerful, plain and simple.

I'm equally amused when "people like you" (generalizations ftw!) perpetuate speculation and opinion to be fact, simply because you happen to believe it.

And for the record, I never said the 9mm was 'just as powerful' as the .40. I merely asked for proof of your assertion that it is a non-debatable fact that the .40 somehow has more 'stopping power', whatever that is.

I'm asking you to provide proof to back up your claim, which you apparently can't.

The real truth of the matter is that the difference in performance in premium loads between 9mm and .40 is so minor as to be nearly impossible to quantify (See Winchester Rangers).

You try to make it sound as if the .40 is so superior to 9mm, that it is a no-brainer. If that were the case, no one would be carrying 9mms anymore, now would they?

I personally carry a 10mm most of the time, so I am not a 9mm fanboy... but when I see someone making absolute statements about non-absolutes, I have a hard time letting that pass.

So again I ask you - Proof please?

nostradumass
02-09-2011, 15:10
If there were a bad round those guys from Jack Ass would have vids of them shooting each other with 380s without protection.

matteblack
02-09-2011, 15:16
To the original poster: The 9mm is fine, invest in skills and tactics. Also, buy a rifle if you truly want stopping power. Expect less from your handgun and more from yourself. Learn and Train. :cool:

hooterman
02-09-2011, 15:19
:popcorn: Told you it was going to be another stupid caliber war..:rofl:

"Cold Dead Hands" !
02-09-2011, 15:25
Hot 9mm has just as much power as most .357 Sig. or .40
Like Double Tap Ammo.

Captains1911
02-09-2011, 15:27
I'm equally amused when "people like you" (generalizations ftw!) perpetuate speculation and opinion to be fact, simply because you happen to believe it.

And for the record, I never said the 9mm was 'just as powerful' as the .40. I merely asked for proof of your assertion that it is a non-debatable fact that the .40 somehow has more 'stopping power', whatever that is.

I'm asking you to provide proof to back up your claim, which you apparently can't.

The real truth of the matter is that the difference in performance in premium loads between 9mm and .40 is so minor as to be nearly impossible to quantify (See Winchester Rangers).

You try to make it sound as if the .40 is so superior to 9mm, that it is a no-brainer. If that were the case, no one would be carrying 9mms anymore, now would they?

I personally carry a 10mm most of the time, so I am not a 9mm fanboy... but when I see someone making absolute statements about non-absolutes, I have a hard time letting that pass.

So again I ask you - Proof please?

If stopping power is measured in terms of bullet diameter, energy, and penetration depth, then generally speaking, yes, a .40 > 9mm. This is FACT. Sure there are some really good 9mm cartridges that greatly close the gap between the two.

Would you argue that a 9mm has the same "stopping power" as a .50 S&W? It's really the exact same principle only scaled up. At what point do you agree that a more powerful cartridge has more "stopping power"?

I never said that .40 is so superior to 9mm, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm only implying that in simple terms of power, a .40 is greater. If it wasn't then why would it have more recoil out of identical platforms?

Electrikkoolaid
02-09-2011, 15:32
9 + .40 + .45 still doesn't equal 10.

Simple math folks.

John Rambo
02-09-2011, 15:35
O rly?

Proof please?

yarly

http://www.survival-preps.com/index.php?topic=891.0;prev_next=prev
CHEAP .40S&W
180gr
389 Ft/Lbs kinetic energy
~990fps


http://forum.pafoa.org/ammunition-reloading-25/97216-9mm-p-357-sig.html
Winchester Ranger T +P+
399ft/lbs kinetic energy
~1250 fps

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1169852.html
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" (565 ft-lbs)
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" (560 ft-lbs)
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" (530 ft-lbs)
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" (485 ft-lbs)
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" (490 ft-lbs)




Anything else?

Captains1911
02-09-2011, 15:35
9 + .40 + .45 still doesn't equal 10.

Simple math folks.

You're retarded....


Just kidding, but it's not fair to mix units.

tonyparson
02-09-2011, 15:35
9 + .40 + .45 still doesn't equal 10.

Simple math folks.

9 .40 .45 is alot easier to find then 10.:tongueout:

hooterman
02-09-2011, 15:37
:popcorn::popcorn::nailbiting::nailbiting:

Electrikkoolaid
02-09-2011, 15:37
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo264/midiman56/Animated%20GIF%20Collection/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Oh goody. Another caliber war thread.

LT1coupe
02-09-2011, 16:26
yarly

http://www.survival-preps.com/index.php?topic=891.0;prev_next=prev
CHEAP .40S&W
180gr
389 Ft/Lbs kinetic energy
~990fps


http://forum.pafoa.org/ammunition-reloading-25/97216-9mm-p-357-sig.html
Winchester Ranger T +P+
399ft/lbs kinetic energy
~1250 fps

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1169852.html
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" (565 ft-lbs)
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" (560 ft-lbs)
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" (530 ft-lbs)
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" (485 ft-lbs)
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" (490 ft-lbs)




Anything else?
Yeah, dbl tap .357 sig

Caliber: 357 Sig
Bullet Weight: 125 Grain
Bullet Style: Full Metal Jacket
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1450 fps
Muzzle Energy: 584 ft. lbs.

Sammael
02-09-2011, 16:27
If stopping power is measured in terms of bullet diameter, energy, and penetration depth, then generally speaking, yes, a .40 > 9mm. This is FACT. Sure there are some really good 9mm cartridges that greatly close the gap between the two.

Some 9mm cartiges don't 'close the gap', some eclipse the gap. That was my entire point. Again, not an absolute.

Would you argue that a 9mm has the same "stopping power" as a .50 S&W?If I had 9mm loadings that equaled or surpassed .50 S&W loads in that same manufacturer/ammunition line, why yes, yes I would.

a .40 is more powerful, plain and simple.

I never said that .40 is so superior to 9mm, so please don't put words in my mouth.
:headscratch:

But I was more addressing this:
.40 > 9mm as far as stopping power. Theres not really any debating that.
...than anything else. Statements of absolutes.

As far as this goes:
yarly

http://www.survival-preps.com/index.php?topic=891.0;prev_next=prev
CHEAP .40S&W
180gr
389 Ft/Lbs kinetic energy
~990fps


http://forum.pafoa.org/ammunition-reloading-25/97216-9mm-p-357-sig.html
Winchester Ranger T +P+
399ft/lbs kinetic energy
~1250 fps

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1169852.html
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72" (565 ft-lbs)
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76" (560 ft-lbs)
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70" (530 ft-lbs)
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68" (485 ft-lbs)
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59" (490 ft-lbs)




Anything else?
Congrats on being so determined to come off as smugly confident that you completely missed the point. :upeyes:

Anyone can cherry pick loads that are greater than others, and we can go back and forth all day doing it.

My question was for proof positive that it is a non-debatable fact (See quote #1 from Vip18971) that .40 is hands down more powerful than 9mm. It isn't.

Performance overlaps between the two, and on more than a few different loadings. When you have that happening, you cannot have an absolute that one is superior to the other. In some loadings yes, in others, no. See? Not an absolute.

Which is why most days, you'll find me carrying a 10mm. :supergrin:

John Rambo
02-09-2011, 16:36
So, which is more powerful? The most powerful 9mm round, or the most powerful .40S&W round?

The .40S&W round.

Hence, the .40S&W is more powerful. The more powerful round has more stopping power - its a simple concept to understand. Which would damage you more? Getting hit with 400lbs of force, or getting hit with 500lbs of force?

Just admit you picked the wrong debate and move on. I posted quantifable facts, and you tried to skate out of admitting your views weren't correct.

Sammael
02-09-2011, 16:42
So, which is more powerful? The most powerful 9mm round, or the most powerful .40S&W round?

The .40S&W round.

Hence, the .40S&W is more powerful.

Just admit you picked the wrong debate and move on. I posted quantifable facts, and you tried to weasel your way out of admitting your views weren't correct.

Actually no, all you did was just change the question. The issue was never about 'the most powerful loading' of anything. Your contention was that .40>9 - period.

Sorry friend, you were the one that was wrong for attempting to paint this entire issue in absolutes.

So as far as 'weasling out' of anything... my statement still stands, and there is absolute proof that 9mm and .40 overlap each other.

While personal insults are fun for some, I prefer not to go down that road. I wasn't the one backtracking and changing my original statements, so I don't need to. :)

John Rambo
02-09-2011, 16:52
Actually no, all you did was just change the question. The issue was never about 'the most powerful loading' of anything. Your contention was that .40>9 - period.

Sorry friend, you were the one that was wrong for attempting to paint this entire issue in absolutes.

So as far as 'weasling out' of anything... my statement still stands, and there is absolute proof that 9mm and .40 overlap each other.

While personal insults are fun for some, I prefer not to go down that road. I wasn't the one backtracking and changing my original statements, so I don't need to. :)

I'm not insulting you, where did you get that from? I mean, I Can see how using the term weasel sounded a bit confrontational, so I changed it to skate, but you got me before the ninja edit.

However, it IS absolutes. .40 > 9mm as far as stopping power. The most powerful .40S&W round is absolutely more powerful than the most powerful 9mm round. Now, powerful and stopping power are the same thing. You have a larger bullet with more kinetic energy. That causes more damage. That means its a better choice.

Is there overlap? Sure, if you want to pit a great 9mm round against a crappy .40S&W round. But if we're going to compare the rounds we need a standard benchmark to use when comparing the rounds. "Best rounds" seem to be a good common benchmark. "Awesome +P+ vs. range ammo" is far less so.

Sammael
02-09-2011, 17:07
Is there overlap? Sure, if you want to pit a great 9mm round against a crappy .40S&W round. But if we're going to compare the rounds we need a standard benchmark to use when comparing the rounds. "Best rounds" seem to be a good common benchmark. "Awesome +P+ vs. range ammo" is far less so.

Last thing I am going to say on the matter:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

Same ammunition line, same manufacturer. Winchester Ranger - Widely known as some of the best rounds available, regardless of caliber - does that meet your qualifications for comparison?

Check out the 9mm bonded 147 vs the .40 bonded 180.

For even more of an eye opener, check out the 9mm T series 147 vs the .40 T series 180. The 9mm actually expands more than the .40.

So no, we arent talking +P+ vs range ammo. I hope this is enough for you to admit that we are comparing apples to apples. If not, nothing more I will be able to say will change your mind.

John Rambo
02-09-2011, 18:10
Last thing I am going to say on the matter:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

Same ammunition line, same manufacturer. Winchester Ranger - Widely known as some of the best rounds available, regardless of caliber - does that meet your qualifications for comparison?

Check out the 9mm bonded 147 vs the .40 bonded 180.

For even more of an eye opener, check out the 9mm T series 147 vs the .40 T series 180. The 9mm actually expands more than the .40.

So no, we arent talking +P+ vs range ammo. I hope this is enough for you to admit that we are comparing apples to apples. If not, nothing more I will be able to say will change your mind.

Umm...I checked that, and the .40 outperformed the 9mm in pretty much every comparison I ran of the same brand line. You just made my point. Have a good evening! :wavey:

wdg710
02-09-2011, 18:16
Ditto ...on pugman. Keep the 9mm by High Quality Defensive rds (Cor-Bon) and use the $$$ saved to shoot more at the range!

Electrikkoolaid
02-09-2011, 18:31
Wait a minute...

No one mentioned
.45ACP!

http://members.arstechnica.com/x/helpless_will/deadhorse.jpg


http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif

GreenMill
02-09-2011, 20:09
Buy the 9mm and with the money you save buying 9 mm ammo instead of 40 S&W ammo, buy a G23!

deadcalm4u
02-09-2011, 20:13
I actually have a G23 and wished I got the G19 instead because of ammo prices. I would say keep the 9mm and don't regret it, especially if it will be used as a range gun. Good Luck!

Get this stupid ****. I bought a G23 and then bought a second G23 instead of G19. 2nd one has never been fired, and has meps on it. I would trade it in a heart beat for a G19

Search
02-09-2011, 20:21
On paper, the 9mm doesn't seem that bad.

That's all I've got.

Benaiah
02-09-2011, 20:21
The nine is fine!

Shoot it, enjoy it, get awesome at shooting it, buy some premium hollow points, and don't worry.

MIKE@UTPD
02-09-2011, 20:25
Nothing wrong with 9MM! Put the G17 in the safe and purchase a G19. Now, you have the perfect carry gun. I own both, and the cheaper ammo prices will give you more trigger time...

RJT
02-09-2011, 20:28
I prefer the .40 but shoot what you shoot best. Either will work well if the shooter does his part.

phillet
02-09-2011, 20:37
Trade it for the G22 that way you will have 3 guns in one. You can shoot 9mm and .40 and .357 Sig with just a change of the barrels. You will have to get a few G19 mags but your G22 mags will work with .357 Sig rounds.:thumbsup:

Right on. Wish I would have gone that route.

Left-Right
02-09-2011, 20:56
The reality is that being involved a life threatening situation where you'd actually have to use your handgun is so remote as to be barely measurable. My advice would be to enjoy your purchase.

nostradumass
02-10-2011, 09:11
Is 6 rounds enough?.......:supergrin:

Captains1911
02-10-2011, 09:32
The reality is that being involved a life threatening situation where you'd actually have to use your handgun is so remote as to be barely measurable. My advice would be to enjoy your purchase.

Maybe so, but based on this logic why carry at all? If you're going to do it then you should do it right.

Boxerglocker
02-10-2011, 09:47
Nine is fine... buy yourself a shot timer and borrow a G22. Time yourself on your splits with the two different calibers, center mass with a B27 target at 7 yards. I'll bet you will change your mind very shortly one you see the difference in time and accuracy.
Personally, I don't believe there is much if any ballistic difference between any of the modern SD rounds. I've owned and loaded for all of them at one stage. There is definately a difference in perchieved recoil. Power factor has it's merits, but accuracy is final. Especially on the getting the muzzle backon target for a double tap.
For this reason and simply for consolidation of economy I choose the nine. If you want a .40 get one... another. I wouldn't give the G17 up just yet though. Good luck.

LT1coupe
02-10-2011, 09:53
Good info here, read to the bottom:


I find it amusing when folks compare their hot little 9mm +P+ ammo with the 357 SIG caliber when it comes to speed. Yet, when it comes to pistol longevity and maintenance, they compare standard 9mm ammo with the 357 SIG. I know it’s difficult to believe by some that the 357 SIG can shoot low powered rounds too; I do this all the time to save my hands during 300 - 400 round practice sessions. Along the same line, standard 9mm prices are often quoted instead of +P and +P+ 9mm ammo prices, which are a lot more expensive. Yet one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and it’s already +P ammo.
In general, it's a myth that you can shoot the 9mm faster and better than the 357 SIG. Well, I suppose it could be true if one has not been trained to concentrate on the target, front sight and squeezing the trigger firing sequence, and instead is fully anticipating the sound and feeling of the felt recoil which would of course cause flinching problems, even with a 9mm pistol. The following chart (from 2001 Autopistols Magazine) shows that the 357 SIG caliber is quite competitive with double tap and speed drills:
Compact Glock 19; 9mm; 4" barrel
Compact Glock 23; .40S&W; 4" barrel
Compact Glock 32; 357 SIG; 4" barrel
Mike Boyle Performance Chart
Glock Model
Loads
1st Plate Drill
2nd Plate Drill
Total
1st Double Tap
2nd Double Tap
Total
19
Win. 115 jhp
0.62
0.61
1.23
0.66
0.47
1.13
19
Win 127 sxt +p+
0.70
0.54
1.24
0.60
0.44
1.04
23
Fed 155 HS
0.57
0.39
0.96
0.61
0.49
1.10
23
Fed 180 HS
0.60
0.51
1.11
0.64
0.48
1.12
32
Federal 125 jhp
0.59
0.51
1.10
0.54
0.40
0.94

Dave Spaulding Performance Chart
Glock Model
Loads
1st Plate Drill
2nd Plate Drill
Total
1st Double Tap
2nd Double Tap
Total
19
Win. 115 jhp
0.71
0.34
1.05
0.86
0.24
1.10
19
Win 127 sxt +p+
0.82
0.35
1.17
0.78
0.26
1.04
23
Fed 155 HS
0.87
0.37
1.24
0.71
0.29
0.90
23
Fed 180 HS
0.85
0.34
1.19
0.63
0.34
0.97
32
Federal 125 jhp
0.70
0.30
1.00
0.69
0.35
1.04
Quote: from American Handgunner, May/June 2002, Coptalk, Jim Keefer, the Va. PD's range master, "Our results with the 357SIG have been far superior to what we had with the 9mm P-226 and 147 grain subsonic hollowpoint that we had prior. At first, there was some concern that the 16 inches of gelatin penetration by the 357 SIG would indicate over-penetration on the street, but this has not happened. Every single bullet fired into a suspect has mushroomed and been recovered from the opposite side of the body, or from the suspect's clothing. We've put a million and a half rounds downrange. It's working great." Ayoob added, "Texas troopers speak glowingly of the bullet's 'lightning bolt effect' when it strikes. Virginia troopers told me what impressed them most was instant one-shot stops on armed felons who weren't hit in the A-zone. "
Quote: "When the smoke cleared, we were somewhat surprised at the results. The clear winner was the .357 Glock 31, by more than a 2:1 margin. Frankly, most of us had expected the familiar 9x19 Glock 17 to take the crown. Both total hits and center hits favored the Glock 31 by a commanding advantage." Yearly Glock Autopistols 2001 Magazine; Harris Publications; "On Duty With The .357 Glock 31" by Mike Boyle.
Once again, it's a myth that the 9mm is superior to the 357 Sig in accuracy and speed drills, especially when you take into account that the 357 Sig can be downloaded to feel and act like a standard 9mm round, or supercharged to leave the 9mm in the dust, especially with the heavier 150 grain loads.
I will be the first to admit that the 9mm Luger round is an excellent caliber. The Nine has been around for a century, and there are some good reasons why the 9mm is the universal standard in the world. I would not feel ill prepared with a 9mm pistol, although I would prefer a 4.7" to 5.3" barrel in that caliber. Actually, I admit openly that the 9mm is an excellent part time 357 SIG :)
The 357 SIG has been getting good street stats from agencies, and it has been tested quite a bit in labs. Some of the more well known agencies using the 357 SIG are: Federal Air Marshals, United States Secret Service, and the Texas DPS, to name a few. And some of these agencies using the 357 SIG have already fired rounds totaling in the millions.
I doubt if these agencies would be using the 357 SIG if the over all effect is nothing more than a good 9mm round in a typical 9mm pistol (dah: they'd just use a 9mm pistol instead). On the other hand, 357 SIG folks often use the same reasoning that the 10mm FBI folks originally did, namely that the 10mm has more potential than the .45 and the smaller cased .40 round (ditto comparing the 357 SIG with the 9mm). That reasoning didn't work too well for the health of the 10. But the 357 SIG has the advantage of fitting in 9mm sized pistols and easily swapping barrels with a .40 pistol (magazine & pistol quality permitting). There are even specially made 9mm barrels that can fit in some of the more popular 357 Sig pistols. So the 357 Sig can shoot three of the best duty calibers: 9mm, .40, and 357 Sig. In fact, the 357 SIG has gone a lot farther than the 10mm ever did (the 10 is a fantastic round, please don't misunderstand me), and the 357 SIG continues to slowly make new inroads and continue expanding in the market, despite all the naysayers.
If you could also count the tens of thousands of 357 SIG aftermarket barrels out there, besides actual factory 357 SIG caliber based pistols sold, it becomes a very significant number. There's a reason why there are so many ammo companies producing 357 SIG ammo now.
One other thing to remember about guns in general, especially the 357 SIG: The smaller and lighter the pistol gets, the more you will feel that recoil. I wouldn't want to shoot 400 rounds of 357 SIG in one session with the little Glock 33. Yet, I love to practice with the G33 in smaller doses because it's an amazing back-up pistol.
What are the pros and cons of the 9? Well, there's a lot of feeble ammo out there. On the other hand, there are at least a few good JHP factory brands out there that have stopping power equivalent to any of the top duty rounds, as long as you can legally use JHP in your area that is. Since the 9mm is a century old now, it is basically fully debugged and there is lots of expertise about this round.
What are the pros and cons of the 357 Sig? Well, There's some crappy, unsafe ammo out there because some ammo companies are apparently still in a learning curve. The short neck of the 357 Sig can be easily compensated for by using a firm taper crimp and possibly a light cannelure groove on high quality plated bullets, or a sealant/glue, or using slower powders like AA#9, or using a .3555 bullet diameter, which all but eliminate bullet setback and over pressure problems.
The 357sig can be downloaded to sound like, look like, smell like, and perform like a standard powered 9mm Luger cartridge. It can also be supercharged beyond the capabilities of the +P+ 9mm Luger cartridge, while remaining within normal SAAMI pressures, something the 9mm Luger is incapable of. Whether ballistics engineers will take advantage of the 357 Sig's potential or not, only time will tell. On the other hand, the 9mm Luger cartridge remains the most powerful, most popular, small duty caliber on the planet.
When I reload 9mm ammo, the bullet does not hold any better than when I reload 357 SIG ammo, regardless of the 357’s shorter neck. In fact, when I performed the thumb pressure test on a weighing scale, both the 9mm and 357 SIG reloads had similar bullet holding capability, which was good by the way. I was actually a little surprised that the 9mm did not get a better “thumb scale rating” than my 357 SIG ammo, all components being equal. I will add that reloading a little bottleneck case like the 357 SIG takes expertise in matching the reloading die setup to the bullet and case type correctly. But really, this is the same for straight wall reloaders, who may be suffering from bullet setback a lot more than they realize. Ammo companies that pump out bulk pistol ammo really need to keep improving their quality standards, especially with the 357 SIG. Like I said, ALL calibers have to be monitored for bullet slippage.
Summary

· The 9mm in dominant throughout the world in sheer numbers.
· The 357sig pushes heavier bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm.
· The 357sig pushes bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm out of short barrels.
· Using the same components, except for the brass, the 357sig is on the average 200 fps faster than the 9mm.
· The 357sig is more flexible in velocities than the 9mm, from standard 9mm velocities to faster than 9mm velocities.
· The 357sig can pump more destructive energy into that 12-15 inches of penetration (see below regarding breaking gelatin plates and even knocking gelatin blocks off the table), than other duty calibers, except for the 10mm caliber.
· Ammo companies have tuned the 9mm and 357sig to penetrate and expand in a similar fashion (see above).
· Standard 9mm prices are often quoted instead of the more expensive +P and +P+ 9mm ammo. Yet one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and it’s already +P ammo.
· Depending on the platform, 9mm hi-cap magazines can hold 1 or 3 more rounds than the 357sig.
· Depending on the platform and ammo used, the 357sig can be just about as tame to shoot as the 9mm.
· If the 9mm uses a steady diet of +P+ ammo, pistol life should be similar to the effects of full power 357sig ammo.
· The +P+ 9mm decibel sound rating is somewhat similar to the 357sig.

I’d like to discuss some excellent information from the www.ammolab.com (http://www.ammolab.com/) forum group. This ammolab site specializes in testing ammo and is one of the top 9 firearms sites on the planet:

He has tested several thousand rounds of the usual 9, 40, 45, etc. When he tested the 357 Sig Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber ammo, it did something only the 10mm Silvertip has been able to do. Both of these rounds cracked the top plate that holds the gelatin blocks in place during testing. It’s obvious that these 357 Sig rounds dump more energy into 12 – 14 inches of gelatin than most other rounds he has tested.

When he reinforced the top plates, the same two 357 Sig rounds mentioned above then cracked the lower plate. The best 9mm loads, such as the Ranger 127gr +P+ barely created a ripple in the gelatin in comparison.

[A 357 Sig carbine with a 16” barrel does not push a bullet near the dubious and partially out of date magical 2200 fps for energy to supposedly make a difference. Although at 1600 to 1700 fps, the 357 Sig round is absolutely devastating and I will not describe the effects here. At 1325 – 1450, the 357 Sig is downright impressive with duty pistols. It’s important to not only look at what the bullet did to the gelatin media (penetration, bullet expansion), but what the bullet does during actual impact as well. Both sides of the coin are important and one side will not disappear even though it’s ignored. This is not a vague plea since the bullet impact affect on gelatin can be seen, photographed, and measured.]

As we know, the United States Secret Service, the Department of Public Safety, and the Delaware State Police, to name a few, use the 357 SIG caliber, and the gentleman I’m paraphrasing has contact with a member of the shooting investigation teams of these three agencies.


His contact, an officer, stated that the Texas DPS troopers love the .357 Sig because it has produced the highest fatality rate of violent criminals, much better than anything else they have ever been issued ( including the .45). The 357 Sig has operated at 100% for every single shooting so far.


According to the annual shooting review board files, the 357 Sig is working at 99% for the Delaware State Police, which uses .357 Sig Speer GD ammo.

He also had an opportunity to review the USSS shooting files. They use the Ranger 125 grain load and report it’s the most effective pistol cartridge the USSS has ever been issued. The USSS has had four failures, all with Speer practice ammo. They are now using Winchester clean fire practice ammo.

From testing several thousand rounds of handgun ammunition, he believes that the statement, “Energy Transfer with handguns is a myth”, is only partially accurate. A few handgun rounds such as the 357 SIG caliber, actually transfer noticeable energy to the test medium, which can be seen, photographed, and measured by the distance gelatin blocks are moved, using an equal size and weight of gelatin block for each test. [These facts are observable and verifiable. The long skinny 9mm bullet using the “357 Sig engine” does indeed cause damage that the results of recovered bullets from gelatin cannot completely explain. Some of the more savvy agencies using the 357 Sig cartridge understand this.]

He stated that the .357 Sig is very close to becoming one of the finest auto pistol cartridges ever made. It works consistently over and over again. Police agencies from coast to coast are switching to it in droves because it truly offers everything that the 9mm +P+ had going for it, plus the penetration of the 147gr 9mm along with the capabilities that the disappointing .40 S&W "wonder cartridge" was supposed to have. In a medium frame/medium sized service pistol it offers everything that the .45acp can in terms of penetration and "stopping power" but it does it in a smaller package.

[Let’s look at a .40 and 357 Sig loading of somewhat equivalent ft-lbs of energy

"Federal .357 Sig JHP 125 grains - 1,352 fps velocity, 507 ft-lbs. energy, 169 power factor (momentum)
Winchester .40 S&W Silvertip 155 grains - 1,205 fps velocity, 500 ft-lbs. energy, 187 power factor (momentum)"

Well, if you look at the power factor of the two above loads in 357sig and .40, the .40 round is much harsher to shoot than the 357 Sig round, assuming the .40 and .357sig rounds are launching from pistols of similar size and weight.]

Summary

[Using a stronger jig to hold larger amounts of gelatin in place, as some do, can hide pertinent data. The purpose of bullet testing is to see the impact of the bullet in the medium as it happens, as well as view the end results of penetration and bullet expansion. Unlike clamped down gelatin in a lab, the body is not constrained by super strong immovable plates. So designing a jig and gelatin mix which is too strong and too large provides only partial data results and may hide other important facts.]

The 10mm is an excellent all-around auto pistol caliber, from plinking to self defense to hunting. Yet, the smaller and easier to shoot 357 Sig still offers penetration advantages for skilled law enforcement officers similar to the best 10mm ammo. And the 357sig has an excellent balance of size and ease of use for non experts as well.

Both the 10 and 357sig (at least in some loadings) produce excellent shock value (rapid energy transfer into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin), which caused the above mentioned plates to break.

Winchester spent well over a million dollars developing the 357 Sig RA357T design. Is the 357 Sig a wildcat cartridge? I think not. This ammo provides the excellent penetration of the Ranger T, but relatively shallow penetration of the previous USSS issue 9mm 115 gr. +P+ loads. Essentially, the bullet expands very consistently and does not over penetrate. And what makes this bullet stand out is the ability to send a major shock value (rapid energy transfer) into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin, resulting in a severe “pressure spike punch” that exceeded the load capacity of the 1” plywood plates, causing them to break. The 10mm round in question did the exact same thing.

[Agencies that have been using this round for years like it, even after firing millions of rounds. The newer agencies give it high marks. I’ve received emails from law enforcement officers attesting to the satisfaction of using the 357 SIG, along with some of the best shooting they’ve ever done with an auto pistol caliber. I’ve seen the effects of what the 357 SIG does at a practical pistol range. When it’s loaded with low recoil ammo in the 1120 fps range, an amateur can shoot just as fast and accurately as anyone else; yet, the loud boom (low supersonic range) has an interesting psychological effect on the crowd that screams, “Be afraid even if I miss”. Lower velocities below 1000 fps with a 147 grain bullet can of course cut down on blast if so desired. The 357 Sig has been known to gouge metal pepper poppers. The special bottlenecked funnel effect of pushing the 9mm bullet down range can develop a major quick transfer into the first 3 – 6” of media to create a major “pressure spike punch” into the target. The street stats of agencies and my own observation at the range show that the 357 SIG doesn’t care what detractors say. It just works really well. In fact, all the duty calibers do well with one or more excellent loads that are available.]

The ammolab has stated in their forum that the best loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Sig, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .357 Magnum and .45acp loadings, all perform well. Here’s a list of some preferred loads:

124gr +P 9mm
127gr +P+ 9mm
147gr 9mm
125gr 357 Sig
115 & 125gr .38 Super
125gr 9x23mm
110, 125, & 140gr .357 Magnum
135gr jhp +p & 155gr, 40S&W
165gr jhp .45acp
135gr 10mm jhp +p
(Each of the above loads creates virtually identical temporary and permanent wound cavities.)

I’ll end with just one more paraphrase from the ammolab to confound you:

The 357 SIG is fun to shoot and actually offers advantages over both the .40 and 9mm that neither can match independently.
End of ammolab.com Section
Version 01/30/03 from Pete's 357 Sig Caliber Page
Disclaimer/Warning from 357SIG: Pete's 357 SIG Caliber Page (http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/Disclaimer.htm)
Think safe! Be Safe! Use of this site constitutes acceptance of these Terms and Conditions. (http://www.handguninfo.com/Disclaimer.html) Click here to go back to www.Pete-357.com (http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/)
HandGunInfo.comTM
Sponsored in part by DomainName, Inc. (http://www.domainname.com/) These pages are Copyright © 2003 HandGunInfo.com.
Archive page content is copyrighted by the respective authors.
All Rights Reserved.
These pages may not be copied in whole or in part without
the express written permission of HandGunInfo.com.
HandGunInfo.com and the Handgun and question mark logo
are Trademarks of HandGunInfo.com.

PAGunner
02-10-2011, 10:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT_C-iJfMe4
:whistling:

hooterman
02-10-2011, 10:36
:popcorn::popcorn: Did we get to the .45 v 9mm yet?

LT1coupe
02-10-2011, 10:43
It just seems silly to have to shoot something 4 times to get it to stay :wiggle:

Ticman
02-11-2011, 09:53
Nine is fine... buy yourself a shot timer and borrow a G22. Time yourself on your splits with the two different calibers, center mass with a B27 target at 7 yards. I'll bet you will change your mind very shortly one you see the difference in time and accuracy.


I have done exactly this as posted earlier in the thread. For me there was not enough difference between any of them to say the 9 is faster or more accurate. This may be due to my size and having strong hands. If someone is recoil sensitive the 9 might be a better choice. But, even this can be over come with the proper grip, stance and practice.

dustbusterplus
02-11-2011, 10:30
I've always liked shooting the .40 which is what lead me to get a Glock 27 over 26. I know this website isn't absolute by any means but it is an interesting means of testing 9, .40, and .45.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Brucev
02-11-2011, 10:56
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!

Chill out! The 4-17 is excellent. The difference between a 9mm, a .40 and a .45 is less than the thickness of a piece of cheap dental floss. Spend your time focusing on what really matters... shooting and enjoying your 4-17! For the record, I have a 3-22 which I thoroughly enjoy. I bought the 22 because I wanted a HD weapon. I figured that if there was ever a time when it had to be used, using a weapon identical to what is issued by the local police and sheriff's departments would be worthwhile, should there be any legal challenges. Again, chill out! Don't let all the hot air blasted out by internet twits spoil your milk! As far as youtube is concerned... when it comes to serious deicision making, it's just about a complete waste of time. Educate yourself by referring to reputable sources and not performing clowns.

hooterman
02-11-2011, 11:00
:cheerleader:There it is the .45 ACP has joined the caliber war.

boomhower
02-14-2011, 00:21
All I have ever shot is a .40. I'm getting a new gun, likely a P239 and am open to trying a new caliber. How does +P+ recoil compare to 180gr .40? i.e. a hot 9mm that gives similar ballistics to .40. The idea of increased ammo capacity in that particular gun makes me think a little harder about it.

cowboy1964
02-14-2011, 06:21
Please do tell where we can buy .357 SIG ammo for $8.50-12.50 per box.

cowboy1964
02-14-2011, 06:23
124gr +P 9mm
127gr +P+ 9mm
147gr 9mm
125gr 357 Sig
115 & 125gr .38 Super
125gr 9x23mm
110, 125, & 140gr .357 Magnum
135gr jhp +p & 155gr, 40S&W
165gr jhp .45acp
135gr 10mm jhp +p
(Each of the above loads creates virtually identical temporary and permanent wound cavities.)


They do NOT.

boomhower
02-14-2011, 09:36
Please do tell where we can buy .357 SIG ammo for $8.50-12.50 per box.

And when you find out let me know so I can cash in my 401k and buy a truckload.

dkf
02-14-2011, 12:20
Please do tell where we can buy .357 SIG ammo for $8.50-12.50 per box.

Looks like those articles are from 02' and 03'.

cowboy1964
02-14-2011, 13:12
All I have ever shot is a .40. I'm getting a new gun, likely a P239 and am open to trying a new caliber. How does +P+ recoil compare to 180gr .40? i.e. a hot 9mm that gives similar ballistics to .40.

Depends on the particular round. Federal 9BPLE (a round with a great street track record) really is about the hottest "mainstream" 9mm going. I don't shoot a lot of .40 but IMO it's getting close to .40 in terms of recoil. Ranger +P+ is a bit milder and Gold Dot +P is a touch milder still maybe.

I'm a 9 fan but one advantage to .40 is your practice ammo is probably a lot closer to your carry ammo than is the case with 9mm.

fredj338
02-14-2011, 13:49
I have done exactly this as posted earlier in the thread. For me there was not enough difference between any of them to say the 9 is faster or more accurate. This may be due to my size and having strong hands. If someone is recoil sensitive the 9 might be a better choice. But, even this can be over come with the proper grip, stance and practice.
Platforms are more important than caliber when it comes to shooting fast & accurate. I am much better w/ any 1911 vs any GLock in 9mm. WHile I prefer larger bullet, I am ok w/ the 9mm w/ good ammo. That to me is a 124gr+P or +P+ JHP.:supergrin:

jonah71
02-14-2011, 14:08
I like em both. But I'm a much better shot with the 9 and my wallet likes it better. And I've never heard of anyone saying "thanks for just shooting me with that 9mm instead of the .40." (the 9 is much more fun) And at the risk of being off topic here, even though I've only had the G 23 for a short time, as much as I like it, I prefer shooting the Kimber .45acp. (it's more fun as well.)

Sammael
02-14-2011, 14:16
I have done exactly this as posted earlier in the thread. For me there was not enough difference between any of them to say the 9 is faster or more accurate. This may be due to my size and having strong hands. If someone is recoil sensitive the 9 might be a better choice. But, even this can be over come with the proper grip, stance and practice.
:upeyes:

GunFighter45ACP
02-14-2011, 15:55
If there were a bad round those guys from Jack Ass would have vids of them shooting each other with 380s without protection.

You just made Diet Coke come out my nose! :rofl:

M&P Shooter
02-14-2011, 16:56
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4. My 10 days is up on 2/6/11. I'm now regretting 9mm and kind of want a .40, what do you think? I purchased the Glock as a range gun in the beginning but now realize it should have some stop power. _Should I buy a G22 Gen 4 and later on purchase a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel?_ I'm leaning towards that option pretty heavily right now (easily influenced by YOUTUBE videos). Is the barrel a bad idea? Is it accurate? Is the 9mm the way to go? Any help will be just that, so Thanks in advance people. I kind of rushed in to this buy after shooting the G17 3rd Gen, Sig, & Springfield 1911. I chose Glock :winkie: HELP!!

Thanks!
I would sell the 9mm and go with a .40 or 45acp. The 9mm is considered the minimum for self defense by most including me. Remember the big argument is that any hollow point can fail because of a variety of reasons(True)so with that fact being known the .40cal and 45acp will make a bigger hole. No matter how little of a difference in size bigger is still bigger and in a fight for my life I'll take any advantage no matter how small:wavey: