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glock39
02-26-2011, 10:17
OK, I know this is probably going to start a caliber war, but it really is a serious question...

There are several new little 9mm pistols coming out with shorter barrels. The Kimber Solo, for instance, has a 2.7 inch barrel. Now, most 380's have less than 3 inch barrels, and the premium SD 380 loads should be made to work in that barrel length (several of them are chronograph'd at an honest 1000 fps out of those stubby barrels). But most 9mm's have barrels over 3 inches, and any bullet is going to lose velocity coming out of a shorter barrel. So, are we getting into a situation where a modern 380 hollow-point would expand better than a short barreled 9mm?

And, yes, I know that a 9mm is always going to be more powerful than a 380. But a modern 380 that expands to .50 or .60 caliber could be more effective than a 9mm that doesn't expand at all. A 3 inch barrel seems to be the threshold where many 45 ACP bullets start to have trouble expanding. What is the threshold for 9mm's?

dreis454
02-26-2011, 10:22
Its not barrel length but Velocitylook for at least 850fps for a JHP to expand.
In my 9mm Beretta PX4 (3in.barrel) I use a 124gr +p round.
In my Glock 36 .45acp (3.8in. barrel) I use mostly 230gr+p Hornady TAP (winter months) OR 230gr +p HSTs.

230gr non+p Gold Dots for my G21.

CitizenOfDreams
02-26-2011, 10:26
A bug on my windshield expands to 2" without any damage to the glass.

dreis454
02-26-2011, 10:27
A bug on my windshield expands to 2" without any damage to the glass.

So I guess a .380 would do the same?

CitizenOfDreams
02-26-2011, 10:32
So I guess a .380 would do the same?

No, I don't think .380 will ever expand to 2".

dreis454
02-26-2011, 10:35
No, I don't think .380 will ever expand to 2".

your right,I guess I missed the 2" part.:embarassed:

glock39
02-26-2011, 10:52
Its not barrel length but Velocitylook for at least 850fps for a JHP to expand.


Yes, I've heard that velocity before in regards to 45ACP. Is it true for all calibers?

dreis454
02-26-2011, 11:01
Yes, I've heard that velocity before in regards to 45ACP. Is it true for all calibers?

yes. all Handgun cals.

Berto
02-26-2011, 18:08
The Parabellum will still drive a considerably heavier bullet as fast or faster than a .380, even from a 3" barrel. A good designed bullet like the HST, Gold Dot, SXT etc will expand and more importantly, penetrate.
9mmP can do both, the .380 can do one or the other.

fredj338
02-26-2011, 23:11
Yes, I've heard that velocity before in regards to 45ACP. Is it true for all calibers?
No, expansion is more about bullet design today than vel. The old days, you pretty much had to have 900fps+ to get reliable expansion. Many of todays bullet designs will expand some down to 750fps.
Besides, it's not just about bullet expansion. In the case of the 380, you almost don't want any or very little. The bullets are so light & have a low secden that penetration is going to suffer, even w/ solids. SO bottom line, no, a short bbl 9mm using even std vel ammo is going to beat the 380 by quite a bit. NExt thing people will tell you the 9mm is the same as a 357sig.:upeyes:

glock20c10mm
02-26-2011, 23:31
Besides, it's not just about bullet expansion. In the case of the 380, you almost don't want any or very little. The bullets are so light & have a low secden that penetration is going to suffer, even w/ solids. SO bottom line, no, a short bbl 9mm using even std vel ammo is going to beat the 380 by quite a bit. NExt thing people will tell you the 9mm is the same as a 357sig.:upeyes:
:agree: Yeah, what fredj338 said, 110%!!! Exactly right and 110% true.


Good Shooting,
Craig

CanyonMan
02-26-2011, 23:42
No, expansion is more about bullet design today than vel. The old days, you pretty much had to have 900fps+ to get reliable expansion. Many of todays bullet designs will expand some down to 750fps.
Besides, it's not just about bullet expansion. In the case of the 380, you almost don't want any or very little. The bullets are so light & have a low secden that penetration is going to suffer, even w/ solids. SO bottom line, no, a short bbl 9mm using even std vel ammo is going to beat the 380 by quite a bit. NExt thing people will tell you the 9mm is the same as a 357sig.:upeyes:


Right on fred.

If someone just "has to pack a 380," at least use the heaviest bullet possible the gun will handle, and HC would be first choice like BB. At least FMJ. No expasion is your best friend from a 380.


good word amigo !






CM
:horse:

fredj338
02-27-2011, 00:18
Right on fred.

If someone just "has to pack a 380," at least use the heaviest bullet possible the gun will handle, and HC would be first choice like BB. At least FMJ. No expasion is your best friend from a 380.


good word amigo !


CM
:horse:
Yeah, if I ver get to the pocket gun stage & it's not a j-frame, then a 380 w/ BB LFP would be my choice. I do like that little S&W BodyGuard, just can't make myself buy a 380 again (had my PPKS stolen years ago). I'ld almost rather fight w/ a good knife!

glock20c10mm
02-27-2011, 00:26
Yeah, if I ver get to the pocket gun stage & it's not a j-frame, then a 380 w/ BB LFP would be my choice. I do like that little S&W BodyGuard, just can't make myself buy a 380 again (had my PPKS stolen years ago). I'ld almost rather fight w/ a good knife!
I actually like what you've been preaching for some time now. And that's that with the likes of Kahr pistols and such being relatively readily available, that if someone would require a platform that small, that their isn't much reason to go below 9mm anymore in powerlevel. And as you're mentioning above, since Kahr pistols limit round count already, there are enough relatively little revolvers around to fill the bill too without dropping below 9mm power levels. I'm sure some people have found it necessary to carry smaller than the smallest 9mm platforms available. But in terms of actually necessity, I bet it ain't many!

Good Shooting,
Craig

Alaskapopo
02-27-2011, 01:04
OK, I know this is probably going to start a caliber war, but it really is a serious question...

There are several new little 9mm pistols coming out with shorter barrels. The Kimber Solo, for instance, has a 2.7 inch barrel. Now, most 380's have less than 3 inch barrels, and the premium SD 380 loads should be made to work in that barrel length (several of them are chronograph'd at an honest 1000 fps out of those stubby barrels). But most 9mm's have barrels over 3 inches, and any bullet is going to lose velocity coming out of a shorter barrel. So, are we getting into a situation where a modern 380 hollow-point would expand better than a short barreled 9mm?

And, yes, I know that a 9mm is always going to be more powerful than a 380. But a modern 380 that expands to .50 or .60 caliber could be more effective than a 9mm that doesn't expand at all. A 3 inch barrel seems to be the threshold where many 45 ACP bullets start to have trouble expanding. What is the threshold for 9mm's?
No .380 expands to .50 or more and still penetrates the required 12 inches. The .380 is much weaker than the 9mm when fired in short barrels too. Also good 9mm bullets like the HST expand at very low velocities.
Pat

Alaskapopo
02-27-2011, 01:04
Right on fred.

If someone just "has to pack a 380," at least use the heaviest bullet possible the gun will handle, and HC would be first choice like BB. At least FMJ. No expasion is your best friend from a 380.


good word amigo !






CM
:horse:

Dead right. If you must carry a .380 carry ball.
Pat

Alaskapopo
02-27-2011, 01:06
Its not barrel length but Velocitylook for at least 850fps for a JHP to expand.
In my 9mm Beretta PX4 (3in.barrel) I use a 124gr +p round.
In my Glock 36 .45acp (3.8in. barrel) I use mostly 230gr+p Hornady TAP (winter months) OR 230gr +p HSTs.

230gr non+p Gold Dots for my G21.

It depends on bullet design. I have seen the 147 grain 9mm HST fired from a HK MP5SD where the bullet velocity was just 690 expand to .60 caliber in ballistic gelatin. There is no set velocity threshold that all JHP's will expand at. Different designs have different velocity expansion tolerances.
Pat

CanyonMan
02-27-2011, 08:31
Dead right. If you must carry a .380 carry ball.
Pat



:thumbsup:

Amen Pat !



Stay safe buddy



CM
:horse:

CanyonMan
02-27-2011, 08:36
Yeah, if I ver get to the pocket gun stage & it's not a j-frame, then a 380 w/ BB LFP would be my choice. I do like that little S&W BodyGuard, just can't make myself buy a 380 again (had my PPKS stolen years ago). I'ld almost rather fight w/ a good knife!


LOL....

I hear ya. 9 mm minimum for me. That stolen gun may have been a blessing in disguise ! :supergrin:


Stay safe my friend !
Bless ya



CM
:horse:

Dave.1
02-27-2011, 09:25
Normally I carry my 26 even in warm weather. When I have carried a .380 I've always gone along with the FMJ idea.

I don't have as much ballistics experience as most of you but I came across this thread about Cor-Bon DPX .380. I have to say that 4 layers of denim and 2 water jugs impressed me. I think I'll try to test some when it warms up. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

http://www.bersachat.com/forums/showthread.php/935-COR-BON-DPX-380ACP-80gr.

Dave

Edmo01
02-27-2011, 09:26
With reference to handgun caliber choice, a wiser man than I once said, "Carry the biggest caliber your ability will allow."

The 380 ACP generally lacks the bullet weight and velocity to suit my needs in a self-defensive round. The 9mm will outperform it in both bullet mass and velocity every time with the same amount of rounds in the gun. If you are worried about short barreled loss in velocity with the 9mm go to a +P round.

Bullet research and technology has blossomed with the surge in concealed carry across the country and ammo is much better than it used to be. The current crop of self-defense rounds out there today will mushroom and penetrate over a wider range of velocities than those on the market even 10 years ago.

Additionally, manufacturers are coming out with newer pocket autos this year and the trend is toward the 9mm and expect some in 40 S&W. Assuming you can effective control it and accurately make aimed follow-up shots, bigger calibers are always better with regard to terminal performance.

Edmo

glock39
02-27-2011, 09:48
Thanks, everyone!

I confess that, after years of carrying 45's, I was finding myself sometimes violating the First Rule of a Gunfight and not carrying at all. I had just gotten a 380 to rectify this and have something I could carry all the time. Sure enough, as soon as I got the 380, manufacturer's began announcing the new crop of mini-9mm's. Once again proving my theory that the best way to force manufacturer's to come out with a new model you really want is to first spend money on a different gun you were willing to settle for.

After reading these responses, I think I may eventually trade in the 380. Probably wait a while first, to see how well the new mini-9's actually work.

And before anyone says it, I used to have a Kahr. They're nice guns. But I'm one of those oddballs that prefers to have a thumb safety. And, for really deep concealment, a rounder slide (like a PPK or Sig 232) prints a little less and conceals a bit easier.

fredj338
02-27-2011, 12:58
Thanks, everyone!

I confess that, after years of carrying 45's, I was finding myself sometimes violating the First Rule of a Gunfight and not carrying at all. I had just gotten a 380 to rectify this and have something I could carry all the time. Sure enough, as soon as I got the 380, manufacturer's began announcing the new crop of mini-9mm's. Once again proving my theory that the best way to force manufacturer's to come out with a new model you really want is to first spend money on a different gun you were willing to settle for.

After reading these responses, I think I may eventually trade in the 380. Probably wait a while first, to see how well the new mini-9's actually work.

And before anyone says it, I used to have a Kahr. They're nice guns. But I'm one of those oddballs that prefers to have a thumb safety. And, for really deep concealment, a rounder slide (like a PPK or Sig 232) prints a little less and conceals a bit easier.
JMO, for pocket carry, the thumb safety idea scares the crap out of me. No, for pocket carry, I would want a DA or safe action trigger system. It's not going to go off in my pocket if the safety disengages & end up possibly shooting myself. I am not impressed w/ the Kahrs I have shot. Finicky & crappy triggers. I would rather have a reliable 380 than a finicky 9mm. Then again, the J-frame goes bang everytime & you get better ballistics in a 158grLHPSWC+P than any 380 FMJ & most JHP.:dunno:

glock20c10mm
02-27-2011, 13:19
Thanks, everyone!

I confess that, after years of carrying 45's, I was finding myself sometimes violating the First Rule of a Gunfight and not carrying at all. I had just gotten a 380 to rectify this and have something I could carry all the time. Sure enough, as soon as I got the 380, manufacturer's began announcing the new crop of mini-9mm's. Once again proving my theory that the best way to force manufacturer's to come out with a new model you really want is to first spend money on a different gun you were willing to settle for.

After reading these responses, I think I may eventually trade in the 380. Probably wait a while first, to see how well the new mini-9's actually work.

And before anyone says it, I used to have a Kahr. They're nice guns. But I'm one of those oddballs that prefers to have a thumb safety. And, for really deep concealment, a rounder slide (like a PPK or Sig 232) prints a little less and conceals a bit easier.
Not to hijack the thread, but just in case this would be right up your alley I thought I'ld mention it......I think the Beretta Px4 Storm Subcompact in either 9mm or 40S&W may be very close to your likes. Outside of Glocks and Revolvers I'm not to familiar with the overall functioning of some other semi-autos, but what do you think? I think it maybe even has that "thumb safety" you refered to. Not sure.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/px4-storm.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/px4-storm-subcdt.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/px4_sub_exploded.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/px4-storm-with-laser-sight.jpg

You can check out the details here -
http://www.berettausa.com/products/px4-storm-type-f-sub-compact/

It still holds either: 13 rounds of 9mm, or 10 rounds of 40S&W.

3" barrel, 4.5" sight radius, and 26.1 ounces empty.

Or, maybe you don't like it.:supergrin: Just throwing it out there for ya, since I'm guessing it has that "thumb safety" you're wanting.


Good Shooting,
Craig:wavey:


PS - I would highly doubt that the Px4 has a finicky trigger!

fredj338
02-27-2011, 14:26
I don't think that classifies as a pocket gun really. COmpact, but not subcompact. The KelTek & Kahr are the only reliable subcompacts I am aware of. I don't even count the G26 as being a dbl stack, it's too large for pocket carry. I want to like the Kahr, I just haven't found them to be great guns for me. http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp

cowboy1964
02-27-2011, 14:43
The Storm compact is a chunky heavy little gun. Ruger LC9 has a manual safety.

cowboy1964
02-27-2011, 14:50
I am not impressed w/ the Kahrs I have shot. Finicky & crappy triggers.

Really? I love the trigger on my PM9. Smoother than the DA pull on my SIG P229 and slightly lighter. I have lots of trouble shooting well with the SIG in DA but am very accurate with the PM9. Actually more accurate than I am with my Glocks!

fredj338
02-27-2011, 15:00
Really? I love the trigger on my PM9. Smoother than the DA pull on my SIG P229 and slightly lighter. I have lots of trouble shooting well with the SIG in DA but am very accurate with the PM9. Actually more accurate than I am with my Glocks!

Maybe the newer ones are better than the 1st or 2gen ones I have shot, but the take up was massive & the break heavy & mushy. It's already tough to shoot subcompacts well, a crap trigger doesn't help. I would have to shoot a current example before laying out quite a bit of cash for a part time carry gun.:wavey:

glock20c10mm
02-27-2011, 15:23
I don't think that classifies as a pocket gun really. COmpact, but not subcompact. The KelTek & Kahr are the only reliable subcompacts I am aware of. I don't even count the G26 as being a dbl stack, it's too large for pocket carry. I want to like the Kahr, I just haven't found them to be great guns for me. http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp
Well gol-dang-it Fred! If I'ld have known before hand that I can't pocket carry my G29, like I do some of the time, I would have never done it to begin with.:supergrin:

Edited to add; Though not with 15 round mags in it!:supergrin:

fredj338
02-27-2011, 15:24
Well gol-dang-it Fred! If I'ld have known before hand that I can't pocket carry my G29, like I do some of the time, I would have never done it to begin with.:supergrin:

Well you my friend must have really big pockets.:shocked: I guess I should be more specifc. When I say pocket carry, I mean pants pocket, not coat pocket.:wavey:

glock20c10mm
02-27-2011, 15:50
Well you my friend must have really big pockets.:shocked: I guess I should be more specifc. When I say pocket carry, I mean pants pocket, not coat pocket.:wavey:
I meant pants pocket too.:supergrin:

fredj338
02-27-2011, 15:52
I meant pants pocket too.:supergrin:

Ok, now you have to post a pick of you pocket carrying a G29. I'm only 5-10/190#, ain't gonna happen.:whistling:

glock20c10mm
02-27-2011, 16:04
Ok, now you have to post a pick of you pocket carrying a G29. I'm only 5-10/190#, ain't gonna happen.:whistling:
I'm 5' 10.5" and 165 pounds. It doesn't work with all my pants, only the ones with the bigger (generally deeper) front pockets. Definately have to wear a belt though, or even my snugger fitting jeans will eventually come down.:shocked: Of course in cargo pants (of heavier than lighter denim) it also works fine for me.

You know, I'm more/less a one gun guy. Guess I've just gotten used to a G29 being around with nothing else to compare it to on any kind of a basis. It's pretty amazing what one can get used to though. Sure, a G29 in a front pants pocket starts stretching reality, but it's still far from impossible. And of course most of the time it is in a holster. It's just when I have those "lazy dayz".:supergrin:


To each their own,
Craig:wavey:

glock39
02-27-2011, 16:09
JMO, for pocket carry, the thumb safety idea scares the crap out of me. No, for pocket carry, I would want a DA or safe action trigger system. It's not going to go off in my pocket if the safety disengages & end up possibly shooting myself. :

Well, to each his own..

However, consider that the Sig 238 has an 8 lb trigger pull, and a thumb safety with a nice, positive engagement. Carried in a proper pocket holster, I would rate the possibility of the thumb safety being accidentally pushed off as extremely remote. But even if that safety were somehow to become disengaged, then it still has an 8 lb trigger pull (as opposed to the 5.5 lb factory Glock trigger). So how, exactly, is that more dangerous to carry than a Glock?

Having a safety definitely does require more training, as there is an extra step involved in firing the gun. Some people call that a disadvantage, others consider it an advantage. You buys your ticket and you makes your choice, as they say. But properly functioning guns don't go off when you disengage the safety, they go off when you pull the trigger.

fredj338
02-27-2011, 19:22
Well, to each his own..

However, consider that the Sig 238 has an 8 lb trigger pull, and a thumb safety with a nice, positive engagement. Carried in a proper pocket holster, I would rate the possibility of the thumb safety being accidentally pushed off as extremely remote. But even if that safety were somehow to become disengaged, then it still has an 8 lb trigger pull (as opposed to the 5.5 lb factory Glock trigger). So how, exactly, is that more dangerous to carry than a Glock?

Having a safety definitely does require more training, as there is an extra step involved in firing the gun. Some people call that a disadvantage, others consider it an advantage. You buys your ticket and you makes your choice, as they say. But properly functioning guns don't go off when you disengage the safety, they go off when you pull the trigger.
I have no issues w/ a safety, my EDC is a 1911, it's just not what I would want in a pocket carry. BTW, the P238 I tried did nto seem like an 8# trigger pull, not even close. Still, one carries what one feels comfy w/. Cocked & locked in my pockets is not comfy for me, JMO.

Dandapani
02-27-2011, 19:33
No, expansion is more about bullet design today than vel. The old days, you pretty much had to have 900fps+ to get reliable expansion. Many of todays bullet designs will expand some down to 750fps.


Correct. I get very nice expansion of the popular brands of 9mm out of my 2" S/W 940 9mm snub revolver. I'm shooting 147 grain JHP which are all around 950 FPS out of 4" barrel. I'm probably around 800+ FPS out of 2" snub barrel and get perfect expansion into wet pack.

CanyonMan
02-27-2011, 20:14
Well you my friend must have really big pockets.:shocked: I guess I should be more specifc. When I say pocket carry, I mean pants pocket, not coat pocket.


LOL.... Man you and Craig must have pockets like Captain Kangaroo ! :rofl:
With the painted on my legs tight wrangler cowboy jeans we wear out here, i can barely get my pocket knife in and out, much less a gun of any kind. haha

I tried to stick a "unloaded" (in the chamber) G36 in my jeans pocket one day to go to town, and I managed to shove it down in there and could sit down fairly comfortable, kinda, haha, but when I went to try to 'pull it out' in a "hurry." It was Hilarious. Man I was pullin and tuggin on my britches like I had an anvil in my pocket.. Hahaha.

If you amigo's can swing it, my stetson is off to ya. I might get a NAA little baby derrenger in there, but I'd have to ask the BG to wait while I get this sucker out of my pocket ! :supergrin: Then I would be under gunned on top of that unless he was on top of me choking me. haha

You boys enjoy those brithches your wearin ! :tongueout:


Both of ya stay safe and be careful guys ! ;)





CM
:horse:

fredj338
02-28-2011, 11:14
LOL.... Man you and Craig must have pockets like Captain Kangaroo !
With the painted on my legs tight wrangler cowboy jeans we wear out here, i can barely get my pocket knife in and out, much less a gun of any kind. haha

I tried to stick a "unloaded" (in the chamber) G36 in my jeans pocket one day to go to town, and I managed to shove it down in there and could sit down fairly comfortable, kinda, haha, but when I went to try to 'pull it out' in a "hurry." It was Hilarious. Man I was pullin and tuggin on my britches like I had an anvil in my pocket.. Hahaha.

If you amigo's can swing it, my stetson is off to ya. I might get a NAA little baby derrenger in there, but I'd have to ask the BG to wait while I get this sucker out of my pocket ! :supergrin: Then I would be under gunned on top of that unless he was on top of me choking me. haha

You boys enjoy those brithches your wearin ! :tongueout:


Both of ya stay safe and be careful guys ! ;)



CM
:horse:
I'm thinking Craig wears those big baggy gangster pants. You can hide a small Uzi in those.:rofl: Like you Gary, I can barely get a J-frame in my jeans pocket & that is w/ boot grips! Now if Glock would make a Kahr size, single stack 9mm, I would be in for that.:supergrin:

glock20c10mm
02-28-2011, 12:29
I'm thinking Craig wears those big baggy gangster pants. You can hide a small Uzi in those.:rofl: Like you Gary, I can barely get a J-frame in my jeans pocket & that is w/ boot grips!
Not me, and my pants are securely fastened around my waist!:supergrin:
Now if Glock would make a Kahr size, single stack 9mm, I would be in for that.:supergrin:
If they would do that in 357SIG I'ld seriously consider putting money down right now. In extra small form, like say a 2.5" barrel max, 4+1 capacity max, .90" slide/grip width max, using the same general steel slide/polymer frame as now, and they should be delivered factory new with at least 3 mags. Hmmm, am I over reaching here?:shocked:


Good Shooting,
Craig:wavey:

legion3
02-28-2011, 12:30
Some of us have to wear suits and a 380 in the size of the LCP is about as big as it can get without the pant's being dragged down or it can go in the coat inside pocket without to much bulk.

frankly none of the "pocket" 9mm's, even the rhorbaugh which is just about the smallest, will be useful for some pocket carry. Whereas a 380 will do most pockets, especially if no belt is involved...athletic running shorts for example.

Sure I would love to carry a 9mm in my pocket but its either not comfortable or difficult to get out of the pocket quickly.

And I would always prefer to fight with a gun, any gun, over any good knife.

The G29 as a pocket gun :faint:

CanyonMan
02-28-2011, 12:40
I'm thinking Craig wears those big baggy gangster pants. You can hide a small Uzi in those.:rofl: Like you Gary, I can barely get a J-frame in my jeans pocket & that is w/ boot grips! Now if Glock would make a Kahr size, single stack 9mm, I would be in for that.:supergrin:


I hear ya ! ;)


Stay safe amigo !



CM
:horse:

ricklee4570
04-19-2011, 02:49
I understand that todays modern hollowpoints expand even at low velocities from the short 9mm barrels. But, with the lower velocities and good expansion, wouldnt that hurt penetration considerably?

With, say a Kel Tec PF9 with a short 3 inch barrel, would one be better served with a solid bullet to ensure adequate penetration?

buster hyman
04-20-2011, 16:52
LOL....

I hear ya. 9 mm minimum for me. That stolen gun may have been a blessing in disguise ! :supergrin:


Stay safe my friend !
Bless ya



CM
:horse:
I'll second that! :wavey:

mikegun
04-20-2011, 20:39
I will say i have never felt comfy packing any 380 pistol, just me??, no , so i bought a Kel Tec PF9, and i am very happy with it, i can carry it in and pants front pocket that i own, and in the right holster it does not print, Levis, Dockers, Slacks etc, i have had very good luck with this pistol in that it has never jammed and is quite accurate for me, so much so i removed the CT laser from the pistol....I prefer to carry my old G2 Glock 23, but if i cant i am staisfied with the PF9, very light gun.....and 9mm makes me feel safe...

High Altitude
04-20-2011, 23:04
9mm thrives in short barrels.

Here are some chrono numbers, both .38 special and 9mm fired out of 2" snubbies. Info from WC145 at this thread http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/109299-9mm-snub-revolvers-whats-your-pick.html

.38spl
WW 130gr FMJ = 689fps
WW 125gr JHP +P = 832fps
Federal 110gr Hydrashok = 873

9mm
WWB 115gr FMJ = 1096fps
Magtech 115gr FMJ = 1057fps
Magtech 115gr JHP +P = 1098
Federal 115gr JHP +P+ = 1174

These velocities are plenty fast for a 9mm to expand. 9mm Gold dot even comes in a short barrel load where the bullet is designed to expand at slower speeds.


OK, I know this is probably going to start a caliber war, but it really is a serious question...

There are several new little 9mm pistols coming out with shorter barrels. The Kimber Solo, for instance, has a 2.7 inch barrel. Now, most 380's have less than 3 inch barrels, and the premium SD 380 loads should be made to work in that barrel length (several of them are chronograph'd at an honest 1000 fps out of those stubby barrels). But most 9mm's have barrels over 3 inches, and any bullet is going to lose velocity coming out of a shorter barrel. So, are we getting into a situation where a modern 380 hollow-point would expand better than a short barreled 9mm?

And, yes, I know that a 9mm is always going to be more powerful than a 380. But a modern 380 that expands to .50 or .60 caliber could be more effective than a 9mm that doesn't expand at all. A 3 inch barrel seems to be the threshold where many 45 ACP bullets start to have trouble expanding. What is the threshold for 9mm's?

fredj338
04-21-2011, 01:21
I understand that todays modern hollowpoints expand even at low velocities from the short 9mm barrels. But, with the lower velocities and good expansion, wouldnt that hurt penetration considerably?
With, say a Kel Tec PF9 with a short 3 inch barrel, would one be better served with a solid bullet to ensure adequate penetration?
Not really, could even improve it some. Higher vel often means greater expansion & slightly less penetration. Slow the same bullet down, say 100fps, & it expands less, smaller frontal area & slightly more penetration. I have seen this in severla 185gr/45acp loads; Win STHP, Fed Classic & the RGS. In a 5" they are shallow penetrators, but in a 4" or 3 1/2", they expand a bout 0.10" less & dig a bit deeper. I would think the same in 9mm.:dunno:

ricklee4570
04-21-2011, 03:46
Not really, could even improve it some. Higher vel often means greater expansion & slightly less penetration. Slow the same bullet down, say 100fps, & it expands less, smaller frontal area & slightly more penetration. I have seen this in severla 185gr/45acp loads; Win STHP, Fed Classic & the RGS. In a 5" they are shallow penetrators, but in a 4" or 3 1/2", they expand a bout 0.10" less & dig a bit deeper. I would think the same in 9mm.:dunno:

Interesting. I have heard the same thing, but have never seen any data or ballistics tests to prove this.

I would think simple geletin tests could be done.

Vigilant
04-22-2011, 11:06
I have become a one-gun person off duty, and have standardized on the Kahr P9. Works just fine for me as a pocket pistol. Has a 3.6" barrel with polygonal rifling. I have learned to like the trigger, especially since I have narrowed it down to the P9 and M&P 40. Sad to say, all I do with an M&P 40 these days is annual quals. So, the P9 trigger is pretty much a matter of habit. For those on a lower budget, I believe Bud's Gunshop still has CW9s for about $375 shipped. For no more difference in size than there is between most 9MMs and most .380s, I would find a way to step up to the nine.

fastbolt
04-22-2011, 12:56
My .380 ACP days are long behind me. (Ditto .22LR & .25 ACP for dedicated defensive calibers, and I never became interested in .32 ACP.)

If I were to consider carrying one, though, it would be one which was able to consistently feed a 105gr JHP reliably. That's about the heaviest I remember seeing for some of the modern defensive loads for that caliber.

As it is, I have enough 9mm guns with 3"- 3 1/2" barrels which serve my needs well enough for small pistols in that caliber, some of which work well enough for jacket pocket holster carry.

My experience and perceived needs for smaller defensive "pocket" guns runs more toward J-frames. I used to carry an Airweight in my slacks front pocket (or inside breast pocket) if I wore a suit/sport coat while teaching at seminars, classes or while attending conferences.

However, isn't it all still about experiencing optimal reliability in the selected platform and being able to consistently make fast, accurate and effective hits on an intended threat target? Maybe some folks draw the line differently when it comes to an acceptable type, or number, of compromises when considering small defensive guns.

If someone carries something which lacks in one of these criteria (optimal reliability & good practical accuracy in their hands), perhaps they're fooling themselves about being safely & adequately lawfully armed.

Then again, rabbit's foot lucky charms used to be sold in all the five & dime stores when I was a youngster. Seemed to sell well, too.

I sometime suspect that there's some number of lawfully armed folks who may unconsciously rely more on the "Talisman Effect" than they may realize. I've often been puzzled by those folks who choose to carry .22's & .25's, and even some .32's & .380's, as either off-duty or CCW weapons when they're unable to shoot them nearly as well as larger pistol platforms.

I don't shill either weapons or calibers, though, preferring to let folks decide for themselves. I do.

fredj338
04-22-2011, 13:30
My .380 ACP days are long behind me. (Ditto .22LR & .25 ACP for dedicated defensive calibers, and I never became interested in .32 ACP.)

I sometime suspect that there's some number of lawfully armed folks who may unconsciously rely more on the "Talisman Effect" than they may realize. I've often been puzzled by those folks who choose to carry .22's & .25's, and even some .32's & .380's, as either off-duty or CCW weapons when they're unable to shoot them nearly as well as larger pistol platforms.

I don't shill either weapons or calibers, though, preferring to let folks decide for themselves. I do.
I think many that carry such small guns don't shoot them much, but it makes them feel cozy. I would almost rather carry a good fighting folder. It will do more damage in close, doesn't jamb, easier to deploy & never runs out of bullets in the fight.:supergrin:

Glolt20-91
04-22-2011, 14:59
My town carry is a 1911 IWB, but if I were to pocket carry, I'd bypass both the .380 and 9mm.

Not my favorite brand, 2" lightweight (22oz) Taurus wheelgun in .327 Fed mag;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/327FedMag115grGoldDot006.jpg

Expansion 1.75x caliber, 0.548", penetration on par with 9mm/147gr Gold Dot/PDX;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/327FedMag115grGoldDot003.jpg

Nice sectional density (0.168 - 9mm/147 is 0.167) at this weight, but check out the 16" of pork shoulder penetration pictures with the American Eagle 100gr JSP (advertised MV/ME 1500fps/500fpe);

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SP101-327.htm

Bob :cowboy:

unit1069
04-23-2011, 09:20
I'd go for a 3 1/16" Ruger SP101 .327 Magnum if I found a good deal on one, but from the available stats that I've found the cartridge is almost identical to the 9mm standard pressure. And even the small 3" 9mm pistols are 6 +1 capacity with flatter profile and lighter weight.

Still, I really like that Ruger and the .327 Magnum is very interesting.

gatorboy
04-23-2011, 10:03
I've got non +P 158 gr. 9mm loads with more velocity than a 90 gr. 380. The 380 will never compare and if a PM9 will fit in your pocket, there is no reason to go 380. I have both a PM9 and a P380 and if nothing else, the 9mm extends the range I could defend myself 50+ yards (not feet). The 380 really is just a pop gun. Would not want to get shot with one at any range but shoot a short barreled 380 a bit and you will see it's limitations.

Guss
04-26-2011, 21:15
I have a little Sig P238 (.380) and a S&W M&P 9c (9mm compact).
I'm getting about 360 ft. lbs. energy from the 9mm and 175 ft. lbs. from the .380. That's with rounds that are not heavily loaded. I believe this is in line with other people's experiments. So there is an obvious power boost from the heavier round in the somewhat longer barrel.


That does not mean that the .380 is ineffective, however. Firing into a stack of soaked newspaper with the .380, I get 6" penetration and good expansion (it would go deeper in flesh). If you shot a medium-sized, sober person with it, he would definitely feel the pain. Bigger drunks would call for follow-up shots.


I live in an area where light clothing is the norm year-round, so the .380 is my choice because of the size and weight. If I lived in a colder climate, I might consider the 9mm in or under a jacket.


Oh, and my 9mm compact has no problem with bullet expansion if you want to go that route.

Alaskapopo
04-26-2011, 22:46
6 inches is not enough Guss. If you really want to carry a .380 load it with ball, at least then it will penetrate deep enough.
Pat

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 10:20
Old thread....sorry...but when compareing a 380 ACP to a 9X19 out of a 3 inch or shorter barrel....they are a bit closer ....but the ticker is the bullet weight...95 gr.s is bout the limit with the 380..and the 9X19 can go up to 147gr.s ...now if that 147 gr. bullet does not expand ..then you are just as well off with a 90gr. FMJ 380 acp....at least you will have less recoil and thus have faster follow up shots...

I own a Bersa 380 CC in 380 acp..and my carry load are 95 gr. FN FMJ

dkf
05-02-2012, 10:59
You can load 124gr bullets in .380 however the velocity will be low, especially with short barreled .380s.

BDSBruce
05-02-2012, 12:22
I just did 3 tests like this last month. 9mm vs 380 for similar loads in similar pistols. With the continued miniaturization of the 9mm, it's becoming the new .380 and I don't mind that at all.

Hornady Critical Defense
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-9mm-vs-380-acp-test.html

Federal Hydra Shok
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test.html

Speer Gold Dot
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test-with.html

Arc Angel
05-02-2012, 12:58
OK, I know this is probably going to start a caliber war, but it really is a serious question...

There are several new little 9mm pistols coming out with shorter barrels. The Kimber Solo, for instance, has a 2.7 inch barrel. Now, most 380's have less than 3 inch barrels, and the premium SD 380 loads should be made to work in that barrel length (several of them are chronograph'd at an honest 1000 fps out of those stubby barrels). But most 9mm's have barrels over 3 inches, and any bullet is going to lose velocity coming out of a shorter barrel. So, are we getting into a situation where a modern 380 hollow-point would expand better than a short barreled 9mm?

And, yes, I know that a 9mm is always going to be more powerful than a 380. But a modern 380 that expands to .50 or .60 caliber could be more effective than a 9mm that doesn't expand at all. A 3 inch barrel seems to be the threshold where many 45 ACP bullets start to have trouble expanding. What is the threshold for 9mm's?

Well, yes and no. (Another way to say, '380 Auto' is, '9mm kurz'.) I'm, 'old school'. From 380, on down I much prefer to use FMJ bullets. I'm, also, going to suggest not to get too carried away with expansion. The old Winchester, 'Silvertip' pistol ammo was very big on expansion; but that didn't stop two FBI agents from dying unnecessarily in the infamous, 'Miami Gunfight'.

Other than this, put the first 3 shots right where they belong; and you should be OK. I live on a farm; and we've got some big animals wandering through these fields at night. (One 500 + lbs. cinnamon-colored black bear!) Around here at night I wouldn't dream of using JHP ammo in my 357 Magnum. The same thing goes for, 'mouse guns'. ;)

fredj338
05-02-2012, 13:41
Old thread....sorry...but when compareing a 380 ACP to a 9X19 out of a 3 inch or shorter barrel....they are a bit closer ....but the ticker is the bullet weight...95 gr.s is bout the limit with the 380..and the 9X19 can go up to 147gr.s ...now if that 147 gr. bullet does not expand ..then you are just as well off with a 90gr. FMJ 380 acp....at least you will have less recoil and thus have faster follow up shots...

I own a Bersa 380 CC in 380 acp..and my carry load are 95 gr. FN FMJ

Not necessarily. Some 380 blowback designs kick quite a bit vs recoil op small 9mm. Really, todays guns & ammo, the 380 should be dead IMO. Most have poor sights, poor grips & triggers then throw in inferior balistics, nope, give me a subcomp 9mm anyday, even a Kahr or Keltec.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-02-2012, 13:43
A bug on my windshield expands to 2" without any damage to the glass.

That is beautiful, man.

I never heard it before :rofl:

Gonna remember that one :)

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 18:46
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740930/732.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740931/922.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740932/157.jpg

as you can see by picture how it compares to the S&W 642

Actually I've owned several 9mm pocket guns..none of'em was as accurate as this Bersa and as for follow up shots none of the micro nines was near as quick getting back on the target as the Bersa 380 CC, and the blow back design seems to dampen recoil, and is MUCH more reliable

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 19:00
I just did 3 tests like this last month. 9mm vs 380 for similar loads in similar pistols. With the continued miniaturization of the 9mm, it's becoming the new .380 and I don't mind that at all.

Hornady Critical Defense
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-9mm-vs-380-acp-test.html

Federal Hydra Shok
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test.html

Speer Gold Dot
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test-with.html

Thanks for the info. very informative .....

Alaskapopo
05-02-2012, 19:07
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740930/732.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740931/922.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1740932/157.jpg

as you can see by picture how it compares to the S&W 642

Actually I've owned several 9mm pocket guns..none of'em was as accurate as this Bersa and as for follow up shots none of the micro nines was near as quick getting back on the target as the Bersa 380 CC, and the blow back design seems to dampen recoil, and is MUCH more reliable

What pocket 9mm's have you tried. .380's are not that reliable in my experience and block back magnifies recoil not dampen it. I would much rather have the 642 in the pic above over the Bersa.
Pat

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 19:26
Kel-Tec P-11 had two of'em first was junk .traded it for a batch of 7.62X39 ammo ..tried to roll the dice again 2nd one was better ..but not reliable enough for a carry gun ,traded it

A Kel-Tec PF -9 a improvement over the P-11 for reliability ..but after 400 + round it was still a crap shoot.. traded it

Ruger LC9 just a higher priced PF-8 not reliable ..traded it

Sccy lowest price one but most likely the best one (reliable that is) ..but still hit or miss except with ball

I've owned two Bersa's my luck has been perfect..most reliable pocket semi I've owned..

Bersa's are well made solid guns a much higher class than the pocket 9mm I've owned ..and have a real pistol feel..

If I carry a 9X19 its my Ruger P95 which ultra reliable ..a different ball park than the Pocket 9's I've owned ..but its a real pistol


As for the 380 ACP cartridge when fired out of a reliable pistol it is every bit as good as the 9X19 out of these micro pocket 9's...but they are the bottom rung as a self defense cartridge

The 9x19 is a high pressure cartridge ,,just works to its full potential in a Mid-Size to large frame Pistol...

I really think the Ruger SR9c would be a great compact 9X19 ..

I own a Ruger SR40c and it is a simply fantastic pistol

Alaskapopo
05-02-2012, 19:48
Kel-Tec P-11 had two of'em first was junk .traded it for a batch of 7.62X39 ammo ..tried to roll the dice again 2nd one was better ..but not reliable enough for a carry gun ,traded it

A Kel-Tec PF -9 a improvement over the P-11 for reliability ..but after 400 + round it was still a crap shoot.. traded it

Ruger LC9 just a higher priced PF-8 not reliable ..traded it

Sccy lowest price one but most likely the best one (reliable that is) ..but still hit or miss except with ball

I've owned two Bersa's my luck has been perfect..most reliable pocket semi I've owned..

Bersa's are well made solid guns a much higher class than the pocket 9mm I've owned ..and have a real pistol feel..

If I carry a 9X19 its my Ruger P95 which ultra reliable ..a different ball park than the Pocket 9's I've owned ..but its a real pistol


As for the 380 ACP cartridge when fired out of a reliable pistol it is every bit as good as the 9X19 out of these micro pocket 9's...but they are the bottom rung as a self defense cartridge

The 9x19 is a high pressure cartridge ,,just works to its full potential in a Mid-Size to large frame Pistol...

I really think the Ruger SR9c would be a great compact 9X19 ..

I own a Ruger SR40c and it is a simply fantastic pistol

I agree that a reilable .380 is better than a un-reliable anything. However a 9mm even when fired from a short barrel still far outclasses the .380 in velocity and bullet weight. Personally the Glock 26 has worked great for me but its not a pocket gun. For a pocket gun I carry a Smith 340 in 357 mag loaded with Speer short barrel loads which are a touch over 38 +p loads.
Pat

mj9mm
05-02-2012, 19:50
i have been so close to picking up a 380, but couldn't find the ones i wanted, so i have been finding better ways to carry my CM9. i have a deep conceal iwb holster i made and it helps a lot. pockets, i'm still working on, maybe almost there, maybe i just think it's noticable. i'm trying some more pocket designs, that may make doable. the cm9 is the best small pistol i can afford and it is 100% reliable with everything i have run through it, so it's my make or break gun:wavey:

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 20:50
i have been so close to picking up a 380, but couldn't find the ones i wanted, so i have been finding better ways to carry my CM9. i have a deep conceal iwb holster i made and it helps a lot. pockets, i'm still working on, maybe almost there, maybe i just think it's noticable. i'm trying some more pocket designs, that may make doable. the cm9 is the best small pistol i can afford and it is 100% reliable with everything i have run through it, so it's my make or break gun:wavey:

CM9 seems like very good choice..... a good IWB holster or a good slide /pancake holster W/ tee shirt out is a great option

I looked at a CM9 actually went to buy one but the LGS had none in stock and used his gun selling skills and I purchased a S&W 908 ..which was a great gun..but I could carry my P95 just as easy.....or close enuff to...

The 9X19 is a great cartridge..and the Kahr CM9 would be a good handling pistol...

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 20:54
I really like a 147 gr bullet in a 9X19 ..(My Ruger P95)


http://onfinite.com/libraries/1709711/ed0.jpg

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 20:55
double post sorry

Tiro Fijo
05-02-2012, 21:17
I agree that a reilable .380 is better than a un-reliable anything. However a 9mm even when fired from a short barrel still far outclasses the .380 in velocity and bullet weight...


I agree. People carry a .380 for convenience. As Clint Smith says "a gun should be comforting and not comfortable". Many people think of comfort and nothing else.

I have an MPA Protector which is touted as the world's smallest .380 and recoil is brutal. No one wants to shoot it more than once. Is it reliable? Not really IMO. The only time I carry it is as a 3rd gun on my person so if I need to shoot someone off of my person.

There are far better & more effective choices in today's market with the micro 9mm's & 5 shot snubbies IMO.

Buckeye63
05-02-2012, 21:28
As Clint Smith says "a gun should be comforting and not comfortable".

But a gun should be carried.....My Ruger Police Security Six is a better choice for SD than my Bersa....but did I carry my Ruger 357 tonight? no....I carried my Bersa

As I say......a carry gun, is a gun that is carried....a 380 in my pocket is better than a 1911 in my truck....

I feel just as well armed with my Bersa 380 as I do with any of my pocket snubbies...

dkf
05-02-2012, 21:56
I don't really care if other like the .380 or not. I like my LCP, enjoy shooting it and its actually pretty accurate. Your not going to find a 9mm in the same weight and size as the LCP. The R9 comes close but its also a finicky and super expensive gun. The .380 isn't what the 9x19 is but at least it is more substancial than the .25 and .32 pistols that a lot of people still carry.

Merkavaboy
05-02-2012, 23:44
Well, yes and no. (Another way to say, '380 Auto' is, '9mm kurz'.) I'm, 'old school'. From 380, on down I much prefer to use FMJ bullets. I'm, also, going to suggest not to get too carried away with expansion. The old Winchester, 'Silvertip' pistol ammo was very big on expansion; but that didn't stop two FBI agents from dying unnecessarily in the infamous, 'Miami Gunfight'.

Once again you show your failure to comprehend reality. No handgun caliber/bullet can be relied upon to stop a determined attacker with ONE SINGLE BULLET. You sure are a big proponent of the One Shot Stop theory, aren't you?

Other than this, put the first 3 shots right where they belong; and you should be OK. I live on a farm; and we've got some big animals wandering through these fields at night. (One 500 + lbs. cinnamon-colored black bear!) Around here at night I wouldn't dream of using JHP ammo in my 357 Magnum. The same thing goes for, 'mouse guns'. ;)

I just love it when people think that the average poorly trained (or completely untrained) armed citizen is going to be able to place any of their shots "where they belong" in a Fight-or-Flight, Do-or-Die lethal force encounter. Even eight highly trained FBI agents, with at least one being a highly trained SWAT officer, couldn't place their shots "where they belong" with the exception of one 9mm STHP fired by Agent Dove. And even that one shot by Dove can be chalked up to pure luck and not skill.

Alaskapopo
05-03-2012, 02:50
Once again you show your failure to comprehend reality. No handgun caliber/bullet can be relied upon to stop a determined attacker with ONE SINGLE BULLET. You sure are a big proponent of the One Shot Stop theory, aren't you?



I just love it when people think that the average poorly trained (or completely untrained) armed citizen is going to be able to place any of their shots "where they belong" in a Fight-or-Flight, Do-or-Die lethal force encounter. Even eight highly trained FBI agents, with at least one being a highly trained SWAT officer, couldn't place their shots "where they belong" with the exception of one 9mm STHP fired by Agent Dove. And even that one shot by Dove can be chalked up to pure luck and not skill.

You speak a lot of truth. There is no magic bullet and in real life its hard to place bullets perfectly. However at least with bullet placement that is what stops fights. You need to shoot fast and accurate and put as many rounds where they need to go as fast as possible. Unfortunately the average cop and FBI agent is not nearly as good as they should be nor are SWAT officers I saw this as a cop, firearms instructor and shooter. We need to raise our standards but unfortunately money is tight for both over time and ammo these days.
Pat

Alaskapopo
05-03-2012, 02:52
I don't really care if other like the .380 or not. I like my LCP, enjoy shooting it and its actually pretty accurate. Your not going to find a 9mm in the same weight and size as the LCP. The R9 comes close but its also a finicky and super expensive gun. The .380 isn't what the 9x19 is but at least it is more substancial than the .25 and .32 pistols that a lot of people still carry.

To each his own but for me I won't go smaller than a 5 shot .38. You just give up too much in ballistics and reliablity. I have shot my buddies LCP and it malfunctioned about 3 times per 100 rounds which is way too much.
Pat

GIockGuy24
05-03-2012, 04:10
The FBI testing favors FMJ bullets over hollow points in 380 ACP. Of course the FBI tests are slanted to favor penetration over expansion though. The 95 grain bullets do better than the 90 grain bullets. The Remington 95 grain FMJ load is a bit hotter than the Winchester 95 grain FMJ load. Federal and Speer usually load 90 grain FMJ bullets in 380 ACP.

Arc Angel
05-03-2012, 05:13
Once again you show your failure to comprehend reality. No handgun caliber/bullet can be relied upon to stop a determined attacker with ONE SINGLE BULLET. You sure are a big proponent of the One Shot Stop theory, aren't you?

Well, good morning to you too, Sunshine! :)

And where, pray tell, do you get your screwball information from? Don't put words in my mouth, OK Pal. Numerous times on THIS board I've posted the information that I usually fire pistol bullets in multiples of two and three shots at a time.

I just love it when people think that the average poorly trained (or completely untrained) armed citizen is going to be able to place any of their shots "where they belong" in a Fight-or-Flight, Do-or-Die lethal force encounter. Even eight highly trained FBI agents, with at least one being a highly trained SWAT officer, couldn't place their shots "where they belong" with the exception of one 9mm STHP fired by Agent Dove. And even that one shot by Dove can be chalked up to pure luck and not skill.

One more time: Don't put your words in my mouth! The way you talk about the '86 Miami Gunfight it would appear you were there. Know what? I'm not impressed; nor do I quite understand where your anger is coming from? You know, I'll just bet you're an absolute terror in person - Right! Remember the 9th Commandment and behave yourself! It's time to stop with the nonsense. Calm down, take your meds and chill out.

:wavey:

hotrodcummins12v
05-03-2012, 05:29
LOL.... Man you and Craig must have pockets like Captain Kangaroo ! :rofl:
With the painted on my legs tight wrangler cowboy jeans we wear out here, i can barely get my pocket knife in and out, much less a gun of any kind. haha

I tried to stick a "unloaded" (in the chamber) G36 in my jeans pocket one day to go to town, and I managed to shove it down in there and could sit down fairly comfortable, kinda, haha, but when I went to try to 'pull it out' in a "hurry." It was Hilarious. Man I was pullin and tuggin on my britches like I had an anvil in my pocket.. Hahaha.

If you amigo's can swing it, my stetson is off to ya. I might get a NAA little baby derrenger in there, but I'd have to ask the BG to wait while I get this sucker out of my pocket ! :supergrin: Then I would be under gunned on top of that unless he was on top of me choking me. haha

You boys enjoy those brithches your wearin ! :tongueout:


Both of ya stay safe and be careful guys ! ;)





CM
:horse:

Does anyone remember JNCO jeans? Haha yes I owned 1 pair when I was in middle school and I could fit a +1000 page math book in each front pocket. If I still had them, I could carry my 1911 as a small pocket gun! But I would look like an idiot... I've traded for regular carpenter pants now that I'm not so juvenile.

As far as carrying FMJ's... I know deeper penetration is a good thing (not to sound like a growth pill salesmen), but where is the shock factor? Just like a .45 isn't made for penetration, but weight transfer and knockdown. Anyone who hunts knows that even with a double lung shot on a deer with a high powered rifle can still allows deer minutes of fight left in his life. How do you know it won't be the same for a strong willed human?

I've seen comparisons of FMJ's to HP's in ballistic gel, and fail to see any real internal damage with a FMJ. I want something that will feel like a punch in the chest, not like being shot with an oversized BB. Even if it doesn't penetrate deep enough for a kill, I feel it would hurt a lot worse and be more of a deterrent. I could be wrong though. What do u guys think?

Sub Club 828
1911 Club 828
Outdoor Hub Mobile

CanyonMan
05-03-2012, 14:01
Does anyone remember JNCO jeans? Haha yes I owned 1 pair when I was in middle school and I could fit a +1000 page math book in each front pocket. If I still had them, I could carry my 1911 as a small pocket gun! But I would look like an idiot... I've traded for regular carpenter pants now that I'm not so juvenile.

As far as carrying FMJ's... I know deeper penetration is a good thing (not to sound like a growth pill salesmen), but where is the shock factor? Just like a .45 isn't made for penetration, but weight transfer and knockdown. Anyone who hunts knows that even with a double lung shot on a deer with a high powered rifle can still allows deer minutes of fight left in his life. How do you know it won't be the same for a strong willed human?

I've seen comparisons of FMJ's to HP's in ballistic gel, and fail to see any real internal damage with a FMJ. I want something that will feel like a punch in the chest, not like being shot with an oversized BB. Even if it doesn't penetrate deep enough for a kill, I feel it would hurt a lot worse and be more of a deterrent. I could be wrong though. What do u guys think?

Sub Club 828
1911 Club 828
Outdoor Hub Mobile



Pard I ain't real sure what all ya just said or are talking about. I wear what about every cowboy or any one else out west wears... Wranglers. I don't recall saying anything in my post above here about FMJ's.... But since you brought it up.

I Take my M1911 45acp "when I go to a town," And stick it cocked and locked down the back of my britches (no holster) and I've used 230gr ball ammo for 40 some odd years. FMJFP's are better than RN, and since I shoot ALL the time, I like carring what i shoot. I assure you a couple well placed 230gr FMJFP's will ruin or end your day ! ;)

Sometimes I do carry 230gr PDX1, or a 230gr XTP, I mostly carry the 230gr XTP's that I loaded myself, yep my own handloads....

Ain't got a clue what "JNCO jeans" are.. I think I was born with wranglers on when the doc pulled me out... :rofl:

Wearing chaps and 18" custom Olathe Boots with stirrup straps and spur rest. and a gun belt with 30 rounds of 45LC and a 4/5# Ruger vaquero hog leg hangin around your wate all day in a saddle is enough. I could never make it with baggy britches. :tongueout:


Well be safe !






CM

Alaskapopo
05-03-2012, 14:23
There is no such thing as Knockdown power with the 45 acp or anything else. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction. For the bullet to knock the target over, firing the gun would have to knock the shooter over. Simple physics which has also been covered on mythbusters as well. JHP ammo is good with service rounds where you can still meet the 12 inches of penetration rule. The reason its good is these bullets damage more tissue not because they knock the target over or have more shock. There is simply more surface area in contact with tissue.
Pat

hotrodcummins12v
05-03-2012, 14:52
Pard I ain't real sure what all ya just said or are talking about. I wear what about every cowboy or any one else out west wears... Wranglers. I don't recall saying anything in my post above here about FMJ's.... But since you brought it up.

I Take my M1911 45acp "when I go to a town," And stick it cocked and locked down the back of my britches (no holster) and I've used 230gr ball ammo for 40 some odd years. FMJFP's are better than RN, and since I shoot ALL the time, I like carring what i shoot. I assure you a couple well placed 230gr FMJFP's will ruin or end your day ! ;)



CM

Sorry CanyonMan if that appeared to be towards you about FMJ's. I was just making a pun about the Jean pockets, the other paragraphs were towards the other posters that commented about it.

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CanyonMan
05-03-2012, 15:49
Sorry CanyonMan if that appeared to be towards you about FMJ's. I was just making a pun about the Jean pockets, the other paragraphs were towards the other posters that commented about it.

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Man NO worries at all amigo... As I said, I do carry very often 230gr FMJFP's and 230gr JHP's when the mood strikes. I know that is not a popular subject, but it is just what I do.

The britches thing... I guess I was to dumb to catch it... No problem ! ;)




Stay safe






CM

unit1069
05-03-2012, 17:32
I don't plan on buying another .380ACP but if I ever do I will only have it loaded with FMJ hard cast ammo.

Tiro Fijo
05-03-2012, 18:25
I don't plan on buying another .380ACP but if I ever do I will only have it loaded with FMJ hard cast ammo.


Buy DPX. They open up in .380 & Boy Howdy!! I'll take a .380 DPX mushrooming to over .70 cal., yet only going approx. 9", over hardball that that does a 'through & through" any day. Remember, it's a .380.


http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10021

JEEPX
05-06-2012, 09:46
I prefer the 9mm myself.


Wife after shooting my pistols and revolvers plus renting more chose the Walther PPK 380 for ccw.

This is the pistol/caliber combo she fell in love with.

After much research we settled on the Buffalo Bore Barnes Tac-XP

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