New Glock 29- Double Tap 200 &230 cast OK?

[skeeeter]

I just bought a new Glock 29 (at the P.V. gun show for $479 total) and want to know if it is safe to shoot Double Tap's 200 and 230gr hard cast rounds?

[swinokur]

I just bought a new Glock 29 (at the P.V. gun show for $479 total) and want to know if it is safe to shoot Double Tap's 200 and 230gr hard cast rounds?

yes but consider an after market barrel which gives better chamber support

Lonewolf Distributing
Barsto
Storm Lake
KKM Precision

[deeHKman]

I just bought a new Glock 29 (at the P.V. gun show for $479 total) and want to know if it is safe to shoot Double Tap's 200 and 230gr hard cast rounds?

Using ths stock barrel i would not go over 200gr HC go over and keyholing comes into play. Congrats

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59

[skeeeter]

deeGman Thanks for the info . I will take this advise and not use 230gr HC but will use it in the Delta Elite.

[deeHKman]

Oh a 10mm DE and G29 you have very nice 10mm's, Congrats and glad to help,

David

[TriggerFinger]

I just bought a new Glock 29 (at the P.V. gun show for $479 total) and want to know if it is safe to shoot Double Tap's 200 and 230gr hard cast rounds?

Very safe to shoot Double Taps.

Double Tap ammo is not as powerful as the company claims it is. They are in between a full 10mm and 40 cal (much closer to 40 cal). Their balistics are exagerated by a lot.

If you want power, go with Buffalo Bore. Their numbers were tested by others and are very very close to what Buffalo Bore prints on their 50 round box.

[firemedic1343]

If you want power, go with Buffalo Bore. Their numbers were tested by others and are very very close to what Buffalo Bore prints on their 50 round box.

That's the only problem with Buffalo Bore, with the price you'd assume it's a 50 round box...guess again :wow: It's only 20 :upeyes:

[agtman]

That's the only problem with Buffalo Bore, with the price you'd assume it's a 50 round box...guess again :wow: It's only 20 :upeyes:

Agree.

McNett's pricing for 50-rd boxes of DT 10mm ammo, plus the free shipping over a thousand rds, easily beats other makers. :whistling:

And those who b*tch about DT's velocity/energy figures aren't working off the chronograph testing of samples from several lots, but off one possible "bad" lot. They need more data to substantiate the fps/fpe shortfall, not just a 50-rd sampling. :upeyes:

The 165gn Golden Saber HPs I carry are still GTG, as are the 180gns, and the comparable 165gn/180gn Gold Dot HP loads.

Trust them with my life.

G20 & DT 165gn GSHPs
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/G201.jpg

:cool:

[skeeeter]

For what it is worth when I shoot the Winchester Silver Tips 10mm (175gr) in my Delta Elite and compare that with any of the Double Tap rounds the DT sure do kick more. Considering Silver Tip 10MM are about 650 ft/lbs of energy I have to believe the DT ammo is producing more energy judging by the kick.

deeGman - That Delta Elite has been back to Colt for a bright stainless polishing and is fitted with an extra barrel in 40S&W, plus some custom work. It is funny how the G29 and the Delta are both beautiful guns in totally different ways. The engineering and design of the Glock is first rate as is the Delta along with its history of being a 1911. In the woods for protection against bear and mountain lion the wife carries the G29 and I the Delta. It is an extra bonus to have the same ammo. Between meeting up with wild, ferral dogs and dangerous psycho's in the woods we are "lucky" to be here.

I know I got a good buy on my new G29 at $479 out the door but I just noticed that the fired shell casing that came with the gun was taken in Sept 2008. I just got the G29 this weekend. Are there any improvements or reasons to regret the buy?

[firemedic1343]

I know I got a good buy on my new G29 at $479 out the door but I just noticed that the fired shell casing that came with the gun was taken in Sept 2008. I just got the G29 this weekend. Are there any improvements or reasons to regret the buy?

I think the ejector or extractor has changed...but idk, someone more experienced will need to clarify.

[deeHKman]

All sounds great skeeter, the DE i bet is nice but in there on way my Glocks are nice. After so many years doing QC, Reliability Testing and Lab i am not into failures. Makes me OCD to get rid of it if the issue continues ;) So far all my Glocks run 100% no failures. BTW Great buy on the 29 Stay safe skeeter,
David :wavey:


For what it is worth when I shoot the Winchester Silver Tips 10mm (175gr) in my Delta Elite and compare that with any of the Double Tap rounds the DT sure do kick more. Considering Silver Tip 10MM are about 650 ft/lbs of energy I have to believe the DT ammo is producing more energy judging by the kick.

deeGman - That Delta Elite has been back to Colt for a bright stainless polishing and is fitted with an extra barrel in 40S&W, plus some custom work. It is funny how the G29 and the Delta are both beautiful guns in totally different ways. The engineering and design of the Glock is first rate as is the Delta along with its history of being a 1911. In the woods for protection against bear and mountain lion the wife carries the G29 and I the Delta. It is an extra bonus to have the same ammo. Between meeting up with wild, ferral dogs and dangerous psycho's in the woods we are "lucky" to be here.

I know I got a good buy on my new G29 at $479 out the door but I just noticed that the fired shell casing that came with the gun was taken in Sept 2008. I just got the G29 this weekend. Are there any improvements or reasons to regret the buy?

[tlrgsxr]

They are in between a full 10mm and 40 cal (much closer to 40 cal).

Can you expand upon this statement please?

[TriggerFinger]

That's the only problem with Buffalo Bore, with the price you'd assume it's a 50 round box...guess again :wow: It's only 20 :upeyes:

Can you expand upon this statement please?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1321153

Buffalo Bore may cost more, but they sell what they advertise.

Double Tap printed 1300fps on one of the 135gr round. Not sure which, but it's in that thread I linked. The test out of a Glock 20 shows numbers as low as much as 190+ fps slower. Buffalo Bore was only 25-30 fps slower.

That's a huge difference when you think you are buying full power load as back-up when you are out in the wood and find out you have 40 S&W power in your Glock 20 instead.

Look at responce #8. There's a list of 10mm rounds all fired out of a Glock 20. The result averages were then compared to manufacturers' claims.

Few were close. Bufallo Bore, PMC

Most were way off. Double Tap

[tlrgsxr]

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1321153

Buffalo Bore may cost more, but they sell what they advertise.

Double Tap printed 1300fps on one of the 135gr round. Not sure which, but it's in that thread I linked. The test out of a Glock 20 shows numbers as low as much as 190+ fps slower. Buffalo Bore was only 25-30 fps slower.

That's a huge difference when you think you are buying full power load as back-up when you are out in the wood and find out you have 40 S&W power in your Glock 20 instead.

Look at responce #8. There's a list of 10mm rounds all fired out of a Glock 20. The result averages were then compared to manufacturers' claims.

Few were close. Bufallo Bore, PMC

Most were way off. Double Tap

I don't think there's any doubt that Double Tap seems to exaggerate their numbers. That said, their 135gr is advertised at 1600fps, not 1300fps. Even if it's optimistic by 150, that's still 1450fps for a 135gr bullet. Is this .40 cal territory? I ask as I've never owned a .40.

Are DT's rounds really .40 territory?

For that matter, the only 10mm I've shot is Hornady 155 which seem fairly tame although I'm under the impression that it's not dog slow, the 175 Win STHP which is obviously hotter, and the 135 DT which seems hotter still. If this is common to .40's, which ones? If so, I'd like to know as there will be a .40 gun in my future, maybe Glock 23?!?

Thanks!

Perhaps I should also add, I'm using a G20SF with a factory 6" barrel and a 22# ISMI recoil spring. Maybe I'm feeling added performance because the barrel is longer and the stronger spring is keeping the breech closed longer?!? Again, I have no idea and my comments are subjective.

[TriggerFinger]

I don't think there's any doubt that Double Tap seems to exaggerate their numbers. That said, their 135gr is advertised at 1600fps, not 1300fps. Even if it's optimistic by 150, that's still 1450fps for a 135gr bullet. Is this .40 cal territory? I ask as I've never owned a .40.

Are DT's rounds really .40 territory?

For that matter, the only 10mm I've shot is Hornady 155 which seem fairly tame although I'm under the impression that it's not dog slow, the 175 Win STHP which is obviously hotter, and the 135 DT which seems hotter still. If this is common to .40's, which ones? If so, I'd like to know as there will be a .40 gun in my future, maybe Glock 23?!?

Thanks!

Perhaps I should also add, I'm using a G20SF with a factory 6" barrel and a 22# ISMI recoil spring. Maybe I'm feeling added performance because the barrel is longer and the stronger spring is keeping the breech closed longer?!? Again, I have no idea and my comments are subjective.


Sorry, I didn't explain thoroughly.

Double Tap example was because it had the largest margin of exageration. I mentioned it's exagerated numbers because OP asked if it's safe to fire Double Tap. I think it's very safe because it's much weaker then Double Tap proclaims.

The whole 40 cal realm thing is with lot of others that was tested, 1k - 1100 fps is closer to 40 cal than the full power 10mm which is known for speeds up to "Double Tap's" 1600 fps.

[Taterhead]

yes but consider an after market barrel which gives better chamber support

Lonewolf Distributing
Barsto
Storm Lake
KKM Precision

Better chamber support, yes. However a lot of guys have feeding issues with that particular projectile and the tighter chambers of aftermarket barrels. I'm not saying that one shouldn't consider better chamber support, but feeding has been an issue for some guys. That projectile is 100% in my stock g20 barrel.

Disclaimer: I don't shoot DTs factory loads. I hand load the same projectile however in the 200gr weight.

[nickE10mm]

I just bought a new Glock 29 (at the P.V. gun show for $479 total) and want to know if it is safe to shoot Double Tap's 200 and 230gr hard cast rounds?


Yes, they are fine in the stock barrel. HARDCAST doesn't cause leading, whereas your typical soft-ish "cast" bullet will lead pretty badly.

Fire with confidence.

[spcwes]

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1321153

Buffalo Bore may cost more, but they sell what they advertise.

Double Tap printed 1300fps on one of the 135gr round. Not sure which, but it's in that thread I linked. The test out of a Glock 20 shows numbers as low as much as 190+ fps slower. Buffalo Bore was only 25-30 fps slower.

That's a huge difference when you think you are buying full power load as back-up when you are out in the wood and find out you have 40 S&W power in your Glock 20 instead.

Look at responce #8. There's a list of 10mm rounds all fired out of a Glock 20. The result averages were then compared to manufacturers' claims.

Few were close. Bufallo Bore, PMC

Most were way off. Double Tap

Just my $.02 to your post here. I tested, posted results and actually had links to video at one time on this very forum with several double tap ammo loadings and used in 2-3 different pistol configurations. My researches showed that not only were the loadings speed on mark within 18-55fps (which a lot could account these minor deviations) but in the case of the 357sig it showed faster than the manufacturer had advertised consistently.

Can you link the data that you are referring that show these extreme deviations you speak of in regards to double tap please?

On the OP's post, it might be safe and several in this thread might have experience with this but Glock has a warning in regards to cast bullets and actually says "Do not fire casts bullets from your glock handgun" in the book, or did the last time I checked unless it has changed with the new models.

[TriggerFinger]

Can you link the data that you are referring that show these extreme deviations you speak of in regards to double tap please?


http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1321153
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcbUR...e_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcbURf-zT0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

[spcwes]

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1321153
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcbUR...e_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcbURf-zT0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

My disclaimer: testing mentioned was done several years ago. Hope things didn't change this drastically.

So the one video done by the one guy is what we are calling the proof or am I missing something here? I tested not only DT ammo but several other ammo types not only for velocity but penetration into three different types of gel medium one of which had a much higher water value than the protein based ****.
That’s for a different topic I guess but what I can tell you for sure is that during my testing DT’s velocity claims were dead on with small spreads. I think the most recording was around 53FPS on one shot. I also realize that basing the end all be all FPS ratings of today’s popular ammo on one person’s info, fired from one gun, with no testing protocol being posted is like the guy that buys a chevy, does not like it and then posts tons of neg crap about how bad the brand is.

That’s actually funny and sad at the same time. I will look to see if I can find the spread sheets from some of my data (looks exactly like what was in that video btw with different numbers inputted) and repost them. I can tell you the videos are lost due to a melted PC and hard drive but my numbers were higher on almost every round we both showed testing done on.

What I said back then and what I would repeat today is get outside and do your own testing. If 10 of you tested the ammo in what way you had available (if you had a way) and did your own testing from 10 different states with different guns it would be different. You guys would stop arguing and probably go beat your heads on a wall.

Edited to add: If anyone does decide to post results from testing please post weapon, barrel length, distance from vel tester, temp, humidity, elevation and wind speed if possible.

[skeeeter]

As I said before and this certainly is not absolute proof of anything but after many years of reloading and shooting Double Tap felt a lot hotter than Win. Silver Tip which leads me to not believe that video or the idea that DT is loaded approx. 200 fps slower than listed on the box. Who here has chrono'd or shot DT? Doesn't feel HOT?
My .45 230gr +p felt like a 9mm compared to the DT loads

[spcwes]

As I said before and this certainly is not absolute proof of anything but after many years of reloading and shooting Double Tap felt a lot hotter than Win. Silver Tip which leads me to not believe that video or the idea that DT is loaded approx. 200 fps slower than listed on the box. Who here has chrono'd or shot DT? Doesn't feel HOT?
My .45 230gr +p felt like a 9mm compared to the DT loads

See above, I chorno'ed tons of ammo including 9mm, 357sig, 45acp and 10mm from double tap in several loadings and bullet configurations. I never got the spread represented in that video. Furthermore most if not all the folks posting that it is slower than represented to the best of my knowledge base the claims on what other people have said vs. doing their own set of tests.

My focus became the 357sig and 10mm as I decided to shoot between the two toward the end of my testing based on the best performance out of all the loadings I tested. My spread was the highest on the 10mm but as I said if I recall correctly it was still under 60FPS and was not common.

There are so many things that can affect the spread on fps during testing by chrono and unless the full testing protocol is posted (and or made available in video) it seems pointless. I have seen people talking smack about it with no evidence to support their claims and I have seen spread sheets with numbers and even seen a video of a guy shooting through a chrono with no testing protocol other than “here is ammo tested now watch the pretty numbers”.

Not saying it can’t be true folks but what I have seen would not sway my judgment on DT as it has served me perfectly for several years now and after almost 3 yrs of ballistic testing the ammo I wanted to carry in my CCW and duty weapons DT came out on top as far as performance, accuracy and customer support were concerned.

Best advice I can give the naysayers is to test the products you decide to depend your life on yourself and don’t let others make decisions, important decisions like that for you.

[agtman]

See above, I chorno'ed tons of ammo including 9mm, 357sig, 45acp and 10mm from double tap in several loadings and bullet configurations. I never got the spread represented in that video. Furthermore most if not all the folks posting that it is slower than represented to the best of my knowledge base the claims on what other people have said vs. doing their own set of tests.

My focus became the 357sig and 10mm as I decided to shoot between the two toward the end of my testing based on the best performance out of all the loadings I tested. My spread was the highest on the 10mm but as I said if I recall correctly it was still under 60FPS and was not common.

There are so many things that can affect the spread on fps during testing by chrono and unless the full testing protocol is posted (and or made available in video) it seems pointless. I have seen people talking smack about it with no evidence to support their claims and I have seen spread sheets with numbers and even seen a video of a guy shooting through a chrono with no testing protocol other than “here is ammo tested now watch the pretty numbers”.

Not saying it can’t be true folks but what I have seen would not sway my judgment on DT as it has served me perfectly for several years now and after almost 3 yrs of ballistic testing the ammo I wanted to carry in my CCW and duty weapons DT came out on top as far as performance, accuracy and customer support were concerned.

Best advice I can give the naysayers is to test the products you decide to depend your life on yourself and don’t let others make decisions, important decisions like that for you.


This. People seem obilivous to this point.

The devil is in the details of how, where and under what conditions the ammo in question gets tested - and that's before you get even more specific about the means used, like the gun itself, stock or custom barrel, barrel-length, use of a heavier-than-stock recoil spring, or a different set-up altogether than what the ammo-maker used when developing and chrono-ing the ammo prior to marketing it.

Relative to, say, me, ... McNett develops and tests DT 10mm ammo with a stock G20 at high altitude, in cooler weather, with less humidity, etc.

Me, I'm shooting a G20 with a stock barrel (but with a 20lb recoil spring and all-steel guide rod) in an environment at a much lower altitude, in warmer weather, with more humidity, etc.

Also, the tester would need the use the chrono machine exactly the way McNett uses his, and to eliminate machine-based variables it would need to be a chronograph model of the same make as McNett uses and calibrated in the same way. Once you've either eliminated the variables or at least factored them in, you're in a position to compare some numbers, i.e., actual "on-the-ground" readings v. the "box-flap" fps/fpe numbers.

Most never give it that much attention. They just set up a chronograph somewhere, start blasting, and when the numbers aren't identical, well, ... the maker gets called all manner of bad names. :whistling:

For me, if the DT ammo reading is off, say, a 50-100fps or so from the box-flap, I'm not losing any sleep about it, given the variables. A lot of other "10mm" ammo out there is merely a 40S&W load using a more expensive case and masquerading as a 10mm anyway :upeyes: (not BB, by the way).

:cool:

[spcwes]

This. People seem obilivous to this point.

The devil is in the details of how, where and under what conditions the ammo in question gets tested - and that's before you get even more specific about the means used, like the gun itself, stock or custom barrel, barrel-length, use of a heavier-than-stock recoil spring, or a different set-up altogether than what the ammo-maker used when developing and chrono-ing the ammo prior to marketing it.

Relative to, say, me, ... McNett develops and tests DT 10mm ammo with a stock G20 at high altitude, in cooler weather, with less humidity, etc.

Me, I'm shooting a G20 with a stock barrel (but with a 20lb recoil spring and all-steel guide rod) in an environment at a much lower altitude, in warmer weather, with more humidity, etc.

Also, the tester would need the use the chrono machine exactly the way McNett uses his, and to eliminate machine-based variables it would need to be a chronograph model of the same make as McNett uses and calibrated in the same way. Once you've either eliminated the variables or at least factored them in, you're in a position to compare some numbers, i.e., actual "on-the-ground" readings v. the "box-flap" fps/fpe numbers.

Most never give it that much attention. They just set up a chronograph somewhere, start blasting, and when the numbers aren't identical, well, ... the maker gets called all manner of bad names. :whistling:

For me, if the DT ammo reading is off, say, a 50-100fps or so from the box-flap, I'm not losing any sleep about it, given the variables. A lot of other "10mm" ammo out there is merely a 40S&W load using a more expensive case and masquerading as a 10mm anyway :upeyes: (not BB, by the way).

:cool:

Another one the video does not talk about or show is the distance from the chrono at which he fired the ammo. Thats kind of a big one and in the video I didn't see any muzzle report, no smoke no nothing.