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zukyota
03-10-2011, 20:13
If i buy a saiga & do the conversion, where do i get the parts from ? i want to do the short barrel, pistol grip & folding stock. I know i'll have to do the nfa paperwork, right now i'm just trying to get a cost idea. Would it be cheaper to buy one already done ? If so, who sells them besides redjacket. They seem a little high to me.

DaleGribble
03-11-2011, 08:55
Doing a SBS on an auto loading shotgun involves more than just chopping the barrel. Based on your question I'm going to make a logical assumption here and say that you probably don't know what you're doing.

My advice, just buy one of the SBS that Tromix, Red Jacket, or ETac offers.

zukyota
03-11-2011, 09:54
Doing a SBS on an auto loading shotgun involves more than just chopping the barrel. Based on your question I'm going to make a logical assumption here and say that you probably don't know what you're doing.

My advice, just buy one of the SBS that Tromix, Red Jacket, or ETac offers.

Uh yeah I know there is more to than just chopping the barrel, that's why I didn't say I was chopping the barrel but thanks for your input.

Raleigh Glocker
03-11-2011, 13:12
http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/StoreFront

This is THE place to go for parts. Greg is also very helpful if you have questions while doing your conversion.

However, I agree with Dale that if you didn't already know this, it does beg the question about how much research you've done into cutting down a Saiga. You say "SBR" in the thread title, so I assume you're chopping a rifle and not a shotgun. Either way, the Saiga 12 forum (http://forum.saiga-12.com/) is the place to go for learning from the mistakes and experience of others.

zukyota
03-11-2011, 14:21
http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/StoreFront

This is THE place to go for parts. Greg is also very helpful if you have questions while doing your conversion.

However, I agree with Dale that if you didn't already know this, it does beg the question about how much research you've done into cutting down a Saiga. You say "SBR" in the thread title, so I assume you're chopping a rifle and not a shotgun. Either way, the Saiga 12 forum (http://forum.saiga-12.com/) is the place to go for learning from the mistakes and experience of others.

Thanks for the info. I was talking about a saiga Shotgun. I don't know a whole lot about it so I figured I would ask. I would like to build & learn but might benefit from buying a converted.

Raleigh Glocker
03-11-2011, 15:31
Yeah, these are gas-operated shotguns. Changing the barrel length changes the timing of the drop in pressure in the gas system. SBS Saigas are VERY tricky to tune. Most professional converters move the gas block, which is not a job for your typical DIY gunsmith.

DD26
03-12-2011, 13:37
My advice is to get the conversion parts from CSS in Raleigh's link. Convert your S12 yourself. Enjoy it and learn it's ins-and-outs. Then, find a place to have the barrel chopped and gas system shortened, and send it in for the work.

That way, you get the "build and learn" experience you want, without having to worry about messing with the touchy gas system. Also, I'd assume having your shotgun sent in just for the barrel chop and gas system shortening, it would be cheaper than buying a pre-converted S12. I could be wrong though. I've never looked into what the going price is for that kind of work on a customer-supplied S12.

Angry Fist
03-12-2011, 13:43
Tromix quoted me ~$1800 for a full conversion, 8" barrel. Can be done on a Form 1 or 4.

Raleigh Glocker
03-12-2011, 14:46
Also, I'd assume having your shotgun sent in just for the barrel chop and gas system shortening, it would be cheaper than buying a pre-converted S12. I could be wrong though. I've never looked into what the going price is for that kind of work on a customer-supplied S12.

Most of the high-end converters won't take partial jobs because they become liable for making the gun work in the end no matter what was done (or not done) to the gun before they got it. They'd rather fill their time with customers paying them to do everything needed to make sure a conversion runs right, rather than get half way into a project only to realize that the gun will need more than just a shortened gas system to cycle with an 8" barrel. That means the asking the customer for money they might not be willing to spend and cutting time out of your production schedule you might not have.

FWIW, I see guys with 8" Saigas not shooting them as much as they shoot their 19" Saigas. It's like buying a roadster sports car only to find that it rides like crap and you can only drive it on warm, sunny days. For fun, an 8" barrel is cool, but for the vast majority of practical purposes, a 19" Saiga will do as well or better.

DD26
03-13-2011, 01:17
Most of the high-end converters won't take partial jobs because they become liable for making the gun work in the end no matter what was done (or not done) to the gun before they got it. They'd rather fill their time with customers paying them to do everything needed to make sure a conversion runs right, rather than get half way into a project only to realize that the gun will need more than just a shortened gas system to cycle with an 8" barrel. That means the asking the customer for money they might not be willing to spend and cutting time out of your production schedule you might not have.


Whether it's a partial or full job doesn't really matter, as far as the gun's actual reliability beforehand.

Both Tromix and RJF have all of their services also available on customer-supplied guns, as opposed to them just using their own stock of factory S12's. They have no "make sure your gun runs as it should, before sending it in" disclaimer on any of their pages.

method
03-13-2011, 03:51
Anyone know what sort of velocity an 8" barrel gives?

Raleigh Glocker
03-13-2011, 07:10
Whether it's a partial or full job doesn't really matter, as far as the gun's actual reliability beforehand.

Both Tromix and RJF have all of their services also available on customer-supplied guns, as opposed to them just using their own stock of factory S12's. They have no "make sure your gun runs as it should, before sending it in" disclaimer on any of their pages.

Yes, they will convert any gun, but no, you won't save any money because you already did part of the job.

You are paying for a FULL conversion regardless of how much of a conversion you've already done. The services are not a la carte, meaning you can't just pay to SBS it. Thus, you save no money whatsoever for having done the basic conversion yourself first, as you wondered if he might.

Send a bone stock unfired Saiga 12 to Tromix, and you pay $1,235 to have it converted into a reliable 8" SBS. Send a Saiga 12 you converted yourself to Tromix, and pay the same $1,235 to have it converted into a reliable 8" SBS. They are going to put their own FCG in it, profile and polish the bolt, carrier, and hammer they way THEY do it, machine the receiver and weld a back plate on THEIR way for mounting the stock, etc., because each one of these things can affect the cycling of a gun.

Again, I'm not just guessing. This is exactly what Tony said, and a few other pros said they do the same thing. If they didn't do the original work, they are going to redo everything to THEIR specs.

Tac-47 is the only reputable shop that I've seen do just a chop in the past, but it was on a gun previously converted by an experienced customer, not a first timer.

All this said, I do agree wholeheartedly that doing your own basic conversion is MUCH easier than most people think it will be, and you will learn a LOT about how the Saiga works and about how to repair it if it malfunctions. I suggest the OP convert his Saiga to a 19" gun, play with it until he gets bored (he won't), then send it off for a pro SBS conversion later. He can chalk the $200 he sunk into his own conversion as educational expense well worth every penny. Honestly, though, I don't think the OP will worry too much about making it an SBS once he sees what the 19" is like.

Louisville Glocker
03-13-2011, 12:25
I'd second CSS (Carolina Supply) for conversion parts. I just completed my conversion and took it to the range yesterday. Worked flawlessly. (I was a bit nervous). The conversion took a few hours (first timer), but would be faster if I had to do it again.

I know nothing about shortening the barrel. But from what they say over at the Saiga-12 forum (highly recommended forum, by the way), you will run into gas issues. The gas issues were why I was nervous after my conversion. These guns are all slightly different, some of the holes drilled better than others, etc...so there is some luck involved, and once you start making significant changes there is even more luck involved. So it probably helps to have skill to offset the luck.

As for my 19" barrel converted S-12, it is awesome. Looks awesome, performs awesome. A short barrel would look even cooler, but whatever. Buy a Draco AK style pistol $350 off the shelf if you want huge firepower with a short barrel ( I did, and it too is awesome). Slap a stock on it, pay the $200 stamp, and you have a SBR for not much money.

DD26
03-13-2011, 18:02
Yes, they will convert any gun, but no, you won't save any money because you already did part of the job.

You are paying for a FULL conversion regardless of how much of a conversion you've already done. The services are not a la carte, meaning you can't just pay to SBS it. Thus, you save no money whatsoever for having done the basic conversion yourself first, as you wondered if he might.

Send a bone stock unfired Saiga 12 to Tromix, and you pay $1,235 to have it converted into a reliable 8" SBS. Send a Saiga 12 you converted yourself to Tromix, and pay the same $1,235 to have it converted into a reliable 8" SBS. They are going to put their own FCG in it, profile and polish the bolt, carrier, and hammer they way THEY do it, machine the receiver and weld a back plate on THEIR way for mounting the stock, etc., because each one of these things can affect the cycling of a gun.

Again, I'm not just guessing. This is exactly what Tony said, and a few other pros said they do the same thing. If they didn't do the original work, they are going to redo everything to THEIR specs.

Tac-47 is the only reputable shop that I've seen do just a chop in the past, but it was on a gun previously converted by an experienced customer, not a first timer.

All this said, I do agree wholeheartedly that doing your own basic conversion is MUCH easier than most people think it will be, and you will learn a LOT about how the Saiga works and about how to repair it if it malfunctions. I suggest the OP convert his Saiga to a 19" gun, play with it until he gets bored (he won't), then send it off for a pro SBS conversion later. He can chalk the $200 he sunk into his own conversion as educational expense well worth every penny. Honestly, though, I don't think the OP will worry too much about making it an SBS once he sees what the 19" is like.

Huh, I figured they would do SBR work on pre-converted guns. RJF touts themselves as a "custom shop", I wonder if they would do it.

Mines already converted, and I'd like to SBR it one day down the road, but if I can't find a place that will only work the barrel and gas system, then I guess I'm out of luck. I won't be attempting that on my own.

I figure the shortest I'd personally go is 10" and the longest being 12". IIRC, Tony's personal go-to S12 is not an 8". It's either a 10" or 12". That says something right there.