9mm, help me understand. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Memnok
04-04-2011, 14:33
I have been reloading 40 S&W for my Glock 22 for a while. Recently picked up a Wolf 40 to 9 conversion barrel so I could start using the 9mm brass I had collected. I picked up some 124 grain Berry's plated RN (http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14478-c11-g8-b0-p0-9mm_124gr_RN.aspx) to stuff into the cases. I am using Winchester Super Field (WSF) for powder.

I started out with the mid range lead data, but they would not cycle the gun. I've been slowly adding powder, looking for the minimum charge that would cycle the gun. Today I want back out with:



4.8 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". Would not cycle the gun.
5.0 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". This would cycle the gun about 85% of the time.
5.2 grains WSF seated to OAL of 1.141". This cycled the gun every time.

The problem I see with this is that 5.2 is right at the upper limit of published data for FMJ. I recovered one of the bullets from the 5.2 grain loads, and there is no sign of separation or deformation, so I am not worried there. I also do not see any signs of pressure on the case.

The only thing I am a little worried about is the primers. Several of them look as though they may have been pierced.

So where do I go from here? I cant back the powder down because it won't cycle the gun. I also can't stay at 5.2 grains because of the primers. Should I look at trying another powder, or monkey with the seating depth?

Photos of the 5.2 grain bullet and cases:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZofvAk8KAI/AAAAAAAAAuE/FBtsJwkdLi8/s800/P1180298.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZof1kAjyNI/AAAAAAAAAuI/bnhTivsRVNc/s800/P1180299.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZof9Ii0LQI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/P_LOqOkeyl0/s800/P1180300.JPG

PCJim
04-04-2011, 15:43
Yeah, it definitely looks like you are piercing the primers.

The problem is most likely due to your attempting to shoot your 9's in a firearm whose recoil spring is designed for the more powerful 40S&W round. Your 9's will have to be really tailored to over power that spring for reliable function, without exceeding pressure signs.

Fred is very experienced with the WSF powder. He'll chime in shortly.

justinsaneok
04-04-2011, 15:49
Put a 15# spring in the gun and leave it in there when you shoot .40. Are you using Federal primers?

Boxerglocker
04-04-2011, 16:05
Yeah, it definitely looks like you are piercing the primers.

The problem is most likely due to your attempting to shoot your 9's in a firearm whose recoil spring is designed for the more powerful 40S&W round. Your 9's will have to be really tailored to over power that spring for reliable function, without exceeding pressure signs.
Fred is very experienced with the WSF powder. He'll chime in shortly.

No necessarily the case... the G22/17 share the same recoil spring.

The main issue is your using a new LWD barrel, those things are tight ans need several hundred rounds of good full power ammo to break in. I have owned several and it has pretty much alway been the case. Stick at the upper range get a harder primer, CCI or even Wolf, load a few hundred and blast away.... make sure you lube the barrel well for break in. Check ever 100 for rubbing between the barrel and slide, take a swiss file and/or 400 grit sandpaper to it if needed. After a few hundred, you'll be able to tone down the load, but at that point I suggest you get a 13-15 lbs ISMI recoil spring to run those 9mm loads in you conversion.

Memnok
04-04-2011, 17:08
The problem is most likely due to your attempting to shoot your 9's in a firearm whose recoil spring is designed for the more powerful 40S&W round.

That was my first thought after the mid-range led data and starting FMJ data wouldn't cycle the gun. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1328693)

No necessarily the case... the G22/17 share the same recoil spring.

Ya, that's what I found out after some research. Seems odd. :dunno:

The main issue is your using a new LWD barrel, those things are tight ans need several hundred rounds of good full power ammo to break in. I have owned several and it has pretty much alway been the case. Stick at the upper range get a harder primer, CCI or even Wolf, load a few hundred and blast away.... make sure you lube the barrel well for break in. Check ever 100 for rubbing between the barrel and slide, take a swiss file and/or 400 grit sandpaper to it if needed. After a few hundred, you'll be able to tone down the load, but at that point I suggest you get a 13-15 lbs ISMI recoil spring to run those 9mm loads in you conversion.

I probably have about 100 rounds through it now, so I will go grab some factory stuff and keep running it through.

The primers I am using at the moment are PMC Small Pistol primers. I don't know how they rate in cup hardness, but they always seem to go bang.

http://www.wideners.com/images/fulls/image1jpg.jpg

I also have quite a stash of the Tula primers, but I haven't gotten into them yet. I wonder if the Tula are any harder. I believe they are the same as Wolf.

9 and 10 mm Fan
04-04-2011, 17:28
The other trick that is available to you is to go to a slower buring powder until the barrle is fully broken in. This will cause higher pressures when the bullet leaves the barrrel, more energy to work the action. I often load 9 mm with Accurate number 7, but have done some loads with AA-9, but I don't think any #9 data is published.

Good Luck

GioaJack
04-04-2011, 17:38
The other trick that is available to you is to go to a slower buring powder until the barrle is fully broken in. This will cause higher pressures when the bullet leaves the barrrel, more energy to work the action. I often load 9 mm with Accurate number 7, but have done some loads with AA-9, but I don't think any #9 data is published.

Good Luck


You may want to rethink your hypothesis.


Jack

fredj338
04-04-2011, 17:48
You may want to rethink your hypothesis.


Jack

Jack, you are being to politically correct, must be the meds, so I'll play bad guy. No, 9&10, slower powders do not create higher pressures. FWIW, I have never known a handgun bbl to need "breaking in". What is likely is the heavier 40 slide is resisiting cycling w/ the 9mm load. I can assure you that most 9s will run quite happily @ 5gr of WSF under a 124gr lead or plated. Make sure the bullet isn't wedging into the lands, LW bbls are notorious for short throats. This would raise your peak pressures.

ipscshooter
04-04-2011, 17:50
FWIW...

I load Berry's 124 with 5.7gr. AA#5 @ 1.10-1.105 OAL. They cycle my 34 fine, but it has a stock barrel.

Boxerglocker brings up the barrel. Maybe you should see if you can get it checked. I think I would. Those primers look nasty.

Good Luck

WiskyT
04-04-2011, 18:02
The upper limit for data shouldn't be piercing primers like that. You have a high pressure condition from more than just using the max load. I've shot lots of max loads with various powders in various high pressure handgun rounds and never seen primers like that. I've even taken certain liberties with some data and never seen primers that bad.

9 and 10 mm Fan
04-04-2011, 19:29
You are correct that slower powders have a lower peak pressure. However, part of what cycles a semi-auto like the 9 mm is the pressure at bullet exit. That is why some slower powders develop more felt recoil whiel at lower velocities and why you use very fast powders to get low felt recoil. Not saying it will fix his gun issue, but playing around with pierced primers is not going to turn out good.

WiskyT
04-04-2011, 19:32
OP:
You should clean out your firing pin channel since it is pretty likely brass filings and other crap have blown in there. I get brass dust in mine after many thousands of rounds without pierced primers. Even just a few of the ones that look like yours will blow stuff back in there.

GioaJack
04-04-2011, 19:43
You are correct that slower powders have a lower peak pressure. However, part of what cycles a semi-auto like the 9 mm is the pressure at bullet exit. That is why some slower powders develop more felt recoil whiel at lower velocities and why you use very fast powders to get low felt recoil. Not saying it will fix his gun issue, but playing around with pierced primers is not going to turn out good.


Recoil is a two-part process incorporating both internal and external pressures. Internally pressure builds from the moment of ignition and excellerates through the pressure curve of a given powder and charge... this results in barrel climb from internal recoil.

The moment the projectile leaves the barrel internal pressure drops, the expanding gasses leaving the barrel causes muzzle flip... the second element of noticed recoil.

The degree of total recoil is determined by several factors, i.e. velocity, pressures developed, weight of projectile, weight of gun, etc.


Jack

Memnok
04-04-2011, 20:34
OP:
You should clean out your firing pin channel since it is pretty likely brass filings and other crap have blown in there.

Will do. Sounds like a good idea.

What is likely is the heavier 40 slide is resisting cycling w/ the 9mm load. I can assure you that most 9s will run quite happily @ 5gr of WSF under a 124gr lead or plated. Make sure the bullet isn't wedging into the lands, LW bbls are notorious for short throats. This would raise your peak pressures.

My overall length now is 1.141 inches. Do you think shortening it will help? I worry about having a compressed load because WSF takes up a lot of room in the case. How short do you think I can safely go?

shotgunred
04-04-2011, 20:44
Glock uses the same springs but adjusts the weight of the slide to compensate.
I have run a lot of 4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125 through my 40 to 9mm barrel in my G23. I went with a 15 pound spring so both 9mm and 40 would be happy. 5.4 gr felt very snappy to me.

also these

4.5 Power Pistol behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
3.7 WW231 behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125

They are all light IDPA loads.

fredj338
04-04-2011, 21:05
Will do. Sounds like a good idea.



My overall length now is 1.141 inches. Do you think shortening it will help? I worry about having a compressed load because WSF takes up a lot of room in the case. How short do you think I can safely go?
I'm NOT saying you should shorten OAL, I am asking if the round is engaging the rifling now. Use yourremoved bbl as a gage, drop the round in & is should seat easily. If it sticks above the hood, you may be seating into the rifling & increasing pressure. You can't really compress a normal load of WSF w/ a 124gr bullet IMO, but something else is wrong. I have run much higher WSF charges under 124gr LTC & JHP & don;t get primers that look like that.

Memnok
04-04-2011, 21:34
Glock uses the same springs but adjusts the weight of the slide to compensate.
I have run a lot of 4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125 through my 40 to 9mm barrel in my G23. I went with a 15 pound spring so both 9mm and 40 would be happy. 5.4 gr felt very snappy to me.

also these

4.5 Power Pistol behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
3.7 WW231 behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125
4.7 gr wsf behind a 124 gr ranier at 1.125

They are all light IDPA loads.

I think I will look at picking up a lighter spring. But there is still something wrong with my loads that is not guide/spring related because factory loads seemed to cycle the gun just fine. I think fredj338 is on the right track.

I'm NOT saying you should shorten OAL, I am asking if the round is engaging the rifling now. Use your removed bbl as a gage, drop the round in & is should seat easily. If it sticks above the hood, you may be seating into the rifling & increasing pressure. You can't really compress a normal load of WSF w/ a 124gr bullet IMO, but something else is wrong. I have run much higher WSF charges under 124gr LTC & JHP & don;t get primers that look like that.

I usually do pull the barrel and drop a bullet in to check for length. I also load a couple up into a magazine (ya, have made some too long to fit there too).

I think I am going to make a test round at 1.141", and another at 1.125" as Shotgunred has used. I'm interested in comparing how deep they each seat in the barrel.

Memnok
04-04-2011, 22:50
I seated some bullets and tested them in the 40 to 9 barrel:

Over all length of 1.125:


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqac1MYM_I/AAAAAAAAAu4/CZwUS_AEek4/s800/P1180301.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqaevEMRQI/AAAAAAAAAvI/0ACRgMjpt8s/s800/P1180305.JPG

Over all length of 1.141:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqadh7OiSI/AAAAAAAAAvA/n6fA5KKSptE/s800/P1180303.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqaeL5YJyI/AAAAAAAAAvE/cQzG-h1GrDc/s800/P1180304.JPG

No bullet (empty case, not even re-sized):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqafFwFgzI/AAAAAAAAAvM/5veif5NWDQo/s800/P1180306.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqafl1PzfI/AAAAAAAAAvQ/t8YLM0Y7EUQ/s800/P1180307.JPG

As I look at the photos, it does not look like the longer 1.141 bullets are sitting high in the chamber. They don't stick, or get stuck, and make the same sound (tone) when the drop in. I know that the tone is not exactly scientific or anything, they just "sound" to me like they are stopping at the same place in the chamber.

So, any other ideas?

This is a 2nd generation Glock if that matters at all. Purchased new in about 1994'ish.

Like I siad in my last post, this had got to be a load issue, because the factory ammo seems to cycle the gun with no problems.

albyihat
04-04-2011, 23:16
I am looking at getting the same conversion for my g22. Everything I have read says the spring should be good to go and as long as you use bullets heaver then 115gr it should function fine. So please keep this thread updated as I would like to know what fixes your problem. Can you try some different powders? It sounds like factory loads are working just fine, so I agree with you it must be something with your load.

cole
04-05-2011, 00:39
Berry's plating can be thicker. IMO, okay to load more like FMJ in non-magnum loads. My Berry's 124gr 9mm loaded the same as FMJ with TG.

It's not just about hardness of the bullet. Pressures can also depend on the bullet diameter and that of your barrel.

I think the .40sw striker spear is longer than the 9mm. They are not the same part # for sure.

Soft primers are easier to pierce. Duh there. I've pierced Remingtons. Not CCI or Winchesters.

cowboy1964
04-05-2011, 08:29
deleted

fredj338
04-05-2011, 13:08
Well, it doesn't look like the bullet is htting rifling, so if your charge wts are correct, then your bbl is likey very tight chamber & bbl dims. All bbls are diff, it's why we work up loads.

Memnok
04-05-2011, 22:06
Well, it doesn't look like the bullet is htting rifling, so if your charge wts are correct, then your bbl is likey very tight chamber & bbl dims. All bbls are diff, it's why we work up loads.

Even if my charge weights are not correct, the amount of powder needed to cycle the gun is piercing the primers. So I guess my only two options are getting a lighter spring, or changing powder. Unless anyone else has some input???

PCJim
04-05-2011, 22:18
After reexamining the photos, I can't help but believe that the brass is RPU (range pickup) due to the various makes of brass shown. Its a bit interesting that only the FC and WIN cases show the pierced primers. S&B, Speer and an unknown do not.

Thinking outside the box a bit, but could the pierced primers be a result of too loose a primer pocket? Primers slamming back on the striker before it has had any chance to retract?

ipscshooter
04-06-2011, 09:43
Just throwing out ideas here.

I may have missed it, but have you tried the reloads in another 9mm gun.

I'm am getting the feeling that it's the barrel. Seems to me that even the slight increase in slide weight would not be enough to cause the flattening of primers. It might delay unlocking slightly, but those are definate overpressure signs. A delayed unlocking would create more of a swipe than a pierceing. A lighter recoil spring might help cycle the gun, but I think it may just allow you to shoot with a dangerous condition.

If the barrel ID is too small, I can see the bullet sitting there after ignition waiting for pressure to build enough to force it down the barrel.

If it were me, I would shoot the reloads in another 9mm gun. If they work, get the barrel checked. I would NOT shoot any more out of that barrel until this was resolved. With the kind of stuff you have going on, you could get hurt, and blow up the gun, as well. The only thing that may be preventing a KB is that the primers pierce and relieve the pressure.

One last thought just occured to me as I was typing the last paragraph. I assume that when you hand cycle the gun nothing is binding. If somehow the externals of the barrel were not cut properly it could be that the barrel is not unlocking when it should, creating an over pressure condition.

Just tossing stuff out there.

justinsaneok
04-06-2011, 21:18
I am looking at getting the same conversion for my g22. Everything I have read says the spring should be good to go and as long as you use bullets heaver then 115gr it should function fine. So please keep this thread updated as I would like to know what fixes your problem. Can you try some different powders? It sounds like factory loads are working just fine, so I agree with you it must be something with your load.

FWIW I have a conversion barrel for my G22. I polished the whole thing with 2000 grit wet dry sandpaper, polished the chamber. I shoot 115 gr rainier 4.5 gr 231. No probs. I never even gave the barrel a chance in the condition I got it. OCD so you might give it the polish job for the hell of it. It has a 15# spring.

Memnok
04-07-2011, 20:45
I was talking to a re-loader from the local gun shop. He recommended I mic some of the bullets and see if they are over-sized. Here are the results:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZ51uGeXBwI/AAAAAAAAAvo/sOoREINB6Uk/s800/P1180315.JPG

What say you?

justinsaneok
04-07-2011, 20:54
I was talking to a re-loader from the local gun shop. He recommended I mic some of the bullets and see if they are over-sized. Here are the results:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZ51uGeXBwI/AAAAAAAAAvo/sOoREINB6Uk/s800/P1180315.JPG

What say you?

Hit the inch button on that caliper! they should be .355 its the standard, some plated ones are .356!

Memnok
04-07-2011, 21:14
Hit the inch button on that caliper! they should be .355 its the standard, some plated ones are .356!

Ya, after all that measuraing I started to do some research and noticed that... :upeyes:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZ58xpQT1kI/AAAAAAAAAwA/HfvbPKUcWMw/s800/P1180316.JPG

GioaJack
04-07-2011, 21:21
The measurements you have are fine. The slight variance is most likely due to slight pressure difference while measuring with the micrometer.

A general rule of thumb is jacketed bullets should be bore diameter with lead bullets running a thousandths over.


Jack

IlliniGlocker
04-07-2011, 21:21
So your shooting reloads through a modified non-OEM gun and wondering why you're getting malfunctions?

Memnok
04-07-2011, 23:20
So your shooting reloads through a modified non-OEM gun and wondering why you're getting malfunctions?

I notice this is your first post in the reloading forum. :dunno:

IlliniGlocker
04-07-2011, 23:39
I notice this is your first post in the reloading forum. :dunno:

Sorry to enter your holy land. I saw the post on the main page and found my way in here. Won't happen again.

You might want to try to shoot some factory 9mm loads with your setup and see if the gun works. If it does. It's your reloads. If it doesn't, well it's the aftermarket bbl.

Memnok
04-07-2011, 23:46
I think I will look at picking up a lighter spring. But there is still something wrong with my loads that is not guide/spring related because factory loads seemed to cycle the gun just fine.

Like I siad in my last post, this has got to be a load issue, because the factory ammo seems to cycle the gun with no problems.


You might want to try to shoot some factory 9mm loads with your setup and see if the gun works. If it does. It's your reloads. If it doesn't, well it's the aftermarket bbl.

:faint:

Boxerglocker
04-08-2011, 01:25
So your shooting reloads through a modified non-OEM gun and wondering why you're getting malfunctions?

He has a legit problem, nothing wrong with using a 40-9 conversion. Many have had great sucess with them, myself included. My G27 LWD had well over 30K through it 50/50 factory and my own reloads, through 3 different G27's I owned and a couple that friends owned whom I lent it out to. I ended up giving it to my BIL being I converted to all 9mm.

Memnok, I'm beginning to think you may have some weird powder issues. No chance it could have been mixed up? I'd be curious if my own loads would do the same in your gun. What crimp dimension are you at? When you compare how far the brass is getting ejected with factory as opposed to the reloads which travels further. A chrono would help you tremendously IMO.

dudel
04-08-2011, 01:54
So your shooting reloads through a modified non-OEM gun and wondering why you're getting malfunctions?

:rofl:

Yep, that's what we do in a reloading forum. We make and shoot reloads. :upeyes:

He's got a legitimate issue. We try to solve them here. Factory ammo may be part of the testing; but it's not the solution (here). Many of us shoot reloads through non oem barrels without a problem.

Memnok, the load doesn't appear out of line. I'm thinking you've got a problem with a sticky firing pin/striker (dirty channel, oiled channel ,etc). You can't pierce a primer if the striker is back in the channel.

One other thought, do you lube your brass (and not remove it)?

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 10:04
Ya, after all that measuraing I started to do some research and noticed that... :upeyes:


Very consistent numbers and right on with the Berry's I have.

I ask before and maybe I missed the answer.

Have you shot your reloads in a 9mm gun other than this conversion?

That may be instructive. I.E. there is a problem with the conversion barrel.

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 10:50
I just took a look at loading data for WSF and 9mm.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I don't know if you noticed, but the start/max load data given is for OAL of 1.169. Quite a bit longer than what you are loading. The 0.028" less in OAL could easily explain the pressure signs.

I have always found that plated bullets tend to fall more toward using lead load data from loading charts than the jacketed data. I'm guessing it's because the copper is softer than a jacket would be. This has been borne out, at least to me, with much chrono testing of 9mm, 40 and 45 loads using Berry's bullets in my guns. YMMV.

I don't know where this leaves you.

I seem to recall that you said the gun functions with factory ammo. Some one suggested a chrono. I agree.

I'm not sure where I'd go from here, other than getting the barrel checked.

JimSig
04-08-2011, 11:40
:rofl:

Yep, that's what we do in a reloading forum. We make and shoot reloads. :upeyes:

He's got a legitimate issue. We try to solve them here. Factory ammo may be part of the testing; but it's not the solution (here). Many of us shoot reloads through non oem barrels without a problem.

Memnok, the load doesn't appear out of line. I'm thinking you've got a problem with a sticky firing pin/striker (dirty channel, oiled channel ,etc). You can't pierce a primer if the striker is back in the channel.

One other thought, do you lube your brass (and not remove it)?

Well, first, hi all.. I am a new member here, and this is my first post in the reloading section, rather in Glocktalk for that matter. I have been shooting for 2 years and reloading for 8 months.

I have to agree with dudel.. the load seems to be fine.. the primers are not flattened out from the pictures.. you can still see the grove around the primers and the primer hole.. A flattened primer (due to high pressure) will flattened the primer to fill in that grooved area.. I would as the OP to just dry fire his glock, open the slide you will see the firing pin portruding out of the pin hole.. try to push it back with your finger.. It might be sticky due to gunk and whatever finds its way to the firing pin channel.. A detailed strip and clean out of the firing channel and pin spring assembly might be due.. Just my opinion..

Can the OP tell us when was the last time he cleaned the firing pin channel.. this would give us a hint if we are on the right track..

fredj338
04-08-2011, 13:42
I just too a look at loading data for WSF and 9mm.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I don't know if you noticed, but the start/max load data given is for OAL of 1.169. Quite a bit longer than what you are loading. The 0.028" less in OAL could easily explain the pressure signs.


I'm not sure where I'd go from here, other than getting the barrel checked.
I doubt it. shorten OAL by 0.28" & you aren't going to be over pressure w/ WSF running where he is. I've gone to 5.6gr under a 124grJHP (Rem, sim to FMJ shape) @ 1.140" & see no pressure signs, it's not even a warm load.
I have to agree with dudel.. the load seems to be fine.. the primers are not flattened out from the pictures.. you can still see the grove around the primers and the primer hole.. A flattened primer (due to high pressure) will flattened the primer to fill in that grooved area..
Not really. Those primers are flattening, not dangerously, but they are flattening. The pierced primer could be the Glock firing pin, or it could be the primer, Federals will do this w/ warm loads, just depends. The biggest issue for me is that 5.2gr of WSF is showing any pressure signs at all. I have run it much higher, into +P zone w/o primers lloking liek that.

Memnok
04-08-2011, 14:29
Very consistent numbers and right on with the Berry's I have.

I ask before and maybe I missed the answer.

Have you shot your reloads in a 9mm gun other than this conversion?

That may be instructive. I.E. there is a problem with the conversion barrel.

I have not. I don't have another 9mm to try them in. I may be able to bum a Browning High Power from my FIL though.

I don't know if you noticed, but the start/max load data given is for OAL of 1.169. Quite a bit longer than what you are loading. The 0.028" less in OAL could easily explain the pressure signs.

I have a Wolff spring & guide on order, and when it gets here I'm planning on starting over, and working my way back up. I'll probably see about seating them deep enough that they aren't on the lands, but still fit into the magazine.

Well, first, hi all.. I am a new member here, and this is my first post in the reloading section, rather in Glocktalk for that matter. I have been shooting for 2 years and reloading for 8 months.

Welcome to the forum. Even someone with 1 post can have valuable input. And there are lots of great guys here willing to help when they can.

I have to agree with dudel.. the load seems to be fine.. the primers are not flattened out from the pictures.. you can still see the grove around the primers and the primer hole.. A flattened primer (due to high pressure) will flattened the primer to fill in that grooved area.. I would as the OP to just dry fire his glock, open the slide you will see the firing pin protruding out of the pin hole.. try to push it back with your finger.. It might be sticky due to gunk and whatever finds its way to the firing pin channel.. A detailed strip and clean out of the firing channel and pin spring assembly might be due.. Just my opinion..

Can the OP tell us when was the last time he cleaned the firing pin channel.. this would give us a hint if we are on the right track..

This is not a primary duty weapon for me, so it get's used infrequently. I think I had it all the way apart about a year ago though. It will definitely get a good cleaning before the next time I go out.

I doubt it. shorten OAL by 0.28" & you aren't going to be over pressure w/ WSF running where he is. I've gone to 5.6gr under a 124grJHP (Rem, sim to FMJ shape) @ 1.140" & see no pressure signs, it's not even a warm load.

Not really. Those primers are flattening, not dangerously, but they are flattening. The pierced primer could be the Glock firing pin, or it could be the primer, Federals will do this w/ warm loads, just depends. The biggest issue for me is that 5.2gr of WSF is showing any pressure signs at all. I have run it much higher, into +P zone w/o primers looking like that.

I think that when the new spring gets here I'm going to load up the next test set with the Tula primers instead of the PMC primers and see how things change. If that does not cure the problem, the barrel is going back to the factory for a chamber check.

Colorado4Wheel
04-08-2011, 14:35
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqac1MYM_I/AAAAAAAAAu4/CZwUS_AEek4/s800/P1180301.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqaevEMRQI/AAAAAAAAAvI/0ACRgMjpt8s/s800/P1180305.JPG

Over all length of 1.141:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqadh7OiSI/AAAAAAAAAvA/n6fA5KKSptE/s800/P1180303.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-_Yk6qV6Q7I/TZqaeL5YJyI/AAAAAAAAAvE/cQzG-h1GrDc/s800/P1180304.JPG


So, any other ideas?


Could you teach Jack how to take pictures. Yours are great. His usually suck.

WiskyT
04-08-2011, 15:00
Hit the inch button on that caliper! they should be .355 its the standard, some plated ones are .356!

I'm starting to get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. Do you think he might be a Canadian? That could be what's causing his problem:supergrin:

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 15:15
I doubt it. shorten OAL by 0.28" & you aren't going to be over pressure w/ WSF running where he is. I've gone to 5.6gr under a 124grJHP (Rem, sim to FMJ shape) @ 1.140" & see no pressure signs, it's not even a warm load.


You may be right. I have no experience with WSF and 9mm.

Seems with the limited volume in a 9mm case that much less than what the data was generated with might create a problem, especially when you get up near max load.

GioaJack
04-08-2011, 15:23
Could you teach Jack how to take pictures. Yours are great. His usually suck.


What the hell are you talkin' about... what's wrong with this? :dunno:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/IMG_4459.jpg?1302297679


Jack

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 15:25
I have not. I don't have another 9mm to try them in. I may be able to bum a Browning High Power from my FIL though.

I think that when the new spring gets here I'm going to load up the next test set with the Tula primers instead of the PMC primers and see how things change. If that does not cure the problem, the barrel is going back to the factory for a chamber check.

I got to thinking about the primer piercing as I was typing above. Thinking what would cause them to pierce so easy.

I've never heard of PMC primers, let alone the version you have. I did a quick search and found this.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90320

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 15:37
More....read post #8

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83846

Memnok
04-08-2011, 15:47
Good info in that link. I deffinately need to try the Tula primers now.

From the other thread:
I recently came upon a deal to acquire some primers for my sorely depleted supply so I could keep on shooting. I was referred by a fellow I had some dealings with to a friend of his who had some PMC primers in his possession and who did ongoing business selling them.

I received the PMC primers last week, but due to my wife's niece visiting I was unable to load any up until yesterday along with a "control group" of rounds using the same cases and powder load but using CCI primers I still had. Today I shot them over a chronograph... 2 lots of 20 rounds, plus 2 lots of 20 of the CCI control group rounds. Here are the results:

.40 S&W
Berry 180grn HP
5.8grn Silhouette
OAL 1.132
83 degrees outdoor temperature
Aug. 12th, 2009
XD40 Tactical 5"bbl

PMC primered rounds
Av. Speed (20 shots) = 813.9
Hi = 909m Low = 671
ES = 238!!!
SD = 54.2 (yuck!)
Power Factor = 146.5 (This would be cool if I were going for MINOR... but nooooo... this was supposed to be MAJOR! Look at the CCI results below.)

Same load, same lot of cases, loaded on the same day in the same hour with CCI primers below...

CCI primered rounds
AV Speed (20 shots) = 950.1
Hi = 967, low = 929
ES = 38
SD = 9.5
Power Factor = 171.0

This was such a great difference I couldn't believe it, so I ran it AGAIN with another series of 20 shot strings for both the PMC and CCI loaded rounds.

PMC Primers again
Av Speed (20 shots) = 146.9
Hi = 888, low = 648
ES = 240 (OMG!)
SD = 55.8 (Is this really happening?)
Power Factor = 146.9

CCI Primers again
Av Speed (20 shots) = 950.7
Hi = 966, Low = 925
ES = 41
SD = 13.4
Power Factor = 171.1

Now, the thing is, if the PMC primers had merely produced those low velocities without such an extreme spread (ES), then I would be ok with it and just use them for minor loads or something... but spreads of 238 and 240 are not conducive to safe shooting! Plus, the really low velocity rounds which would occasionally pop off would stovepipe over the next round in the magazine and the swearing started! My XD Tactical has NEVER hung up a properly constructed round... EVER!

So I don't know what these PMC primers were exposed to. They are supposed to be new manufacture just arrived from Russia with love and all that, but as the above data indicates, they certainly are NOT viable for using in any kind of serious endeavor.

The CCI's on the other hand, I would trust with my life!

Any comments or experiences with PMC or other primers showing these kinds of anomalies by any members here would be appreciated.

Slow powder (WSF) plus PMC primers = :crying:

Ok... went to the range a couple days ago again and this time was trying 4.0grns of Titegroup to see if I could get a moderate load primered with the PMC primers to function the XD40 Tactical with the stock spring installed. Again, the Titegroup lit off well and produced velocities I was expecting, so the PMC "Green" or non-heavy metal primers seem ok with fast burning powders, or at least Titegroup. Below are the results...

40 SW 180grn
Rainier FN
4.0grn TiteGroup
OAL = 1.130
Speed in FPS
884
887
847
863
874
878
881
890
863
897
890
900
856
877
878
853
870
868
868
872
Average Speed
874.8
Power Factor
157.5
High
900
Low
847
Extreme Spread
53
Standard Deviation
13.9
Gun = XD40 Tac 5"
Note: 82 degrees
Aug. 26th, 2009

This was with the lighter recoil spring installed (I think Springer told me it's 16lb). Then I shot another 20 over the chrono to verify and got strikingly similar results using the stock recoil spring. I am not fond of the Rainier FP bullet though as once in a while it hangs up going into the chamber. It's kind of stubby with a very straight ogive as it comes away from the flat nose so I either have to load it a bit longer or go to a Berry or lead bullet either of which I have had good luck with feeding in all my guns. I am trying to get my hands on some WST to test with this primer and some lead bullets so they won't smoke much and see if the PMC Green primers will light it off.

Weekend project:


Work up a new load using the Tula primers and WSF.
Get some Green Dot or Bullseye and see if the PMC are salvageable.

Colorado4Wheel
04-08-2011, 15:57
What the hell are you talkin' about... what's wrong with this? :dunno:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/IMG_4459.jpg?1302297679


Jack

Your right that is a improvement.:whistling:

PCJim
04-08-2011, 16:08
What the hell are you talkin' about... what's wrong with this? :dunno:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/IMG_4459.jpg?1302297679


Jack

Three images in one! Good work, Ansel :whistling:

GioaJack
04-08-2011, 16:31
Your jealously toward my photographic prowess is glaringly obvious. Only a select few can appreciate how many years of tireless experimentation it takes to achieve such creative genius. :whistling:


Jack

ipscshooter
04-08-2011, 16:52
Good info in that link. I deffinately need to try the Tula primers now.

From the other thread:


Slow powder (WSF) plus PMC primers = :crying:



Weekend project:


Work up a new load using the Tula primers and WSF.
Get some Green Dot or Bullseye and see if the PMC are salvageable.


One thing that caught my eye was in the second link, post#8, about flash hole.

"As it turns out to good to be true--these primers were developed to use a larger flash hole"

I had thought I heard something similar before regarding so called "clean" ammo.

The primers may not be ideal for normal flash hole, but I guess it might be possible to work a load up for practice ammo.

Good luck. It might take more than a weekend.

Memnok
04-09-2011, 14:02
Happened across some more info on "green" primers over at THR in a discussion about flash hole size: (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=586419)

Might as well get used to it.
If you are trashing brass because of the big flash hole, you are wasting perfectly good brass.

They can be reloaded normally with no difference in pressure or velocity.

Brass with large flash holes is very likely from NT, kleen-range" or "lead free" primed ammo.

The lead-free Dinol primers have a much more vigorous explosion then normal primers, and early lead-free ammo was causing gun damage. What happened was, the primer fires, backs out of the cases, and eventually peens a dent in the breach face.

Three things were done to prevent the gun damage early on.
1. A larger flash hole decreased the primer pocket pressure considerably which reduced the violent backing out to more normal levels.
2. Primers were crimped in place to help prevent them backing out.
3. A switch to Small primers in calibers that had traditionally used only large primers was made.

Now, the lead-free primer issue has been addressed by further refinement of the Dinol priming mix.
The crimped in place primer is pretty much gone.

But the large flash hole & Sm primer is still being used.
And now, you may even find large flash holes in standard non-lead-free ammo.

rc

Memnok
04-15-2011, 21:25
I did some experimentation over the last week. After a lot of reading I enlarged the flash holds on some cases to 3/32". I loaded test rounds using Green Dot and Bullseye. The PMC primers were still being pierced. Nothing I tried worked with the PMC primers.

I gave up on the PMC's and primed with Tula primers. Test loads with WSF and Bullseye both functioned the gun reliably, and did not pierce any of the primers.

Oddly enough, I started to worry about all the 40 S&W with the PMC green primers. So I grabbed them up and tested them too. No pierced primers.

So it seems that for whatever reason, the PMC primers don't like 9mm. :dunno:

albyihat
04-15-2011, 21:32
What a bummer. But I have found it is stuff like this that teaches me more about reloading

Kwesi
04-16-2011, 08:10
Those primers are flattening, not dangerously, but they are flattening. The pierced primer could be the Glock firing pin, or it could be the primer, Federals will do this w/ warm loads, just depends.

does anyone have any photo tutorial of what is and what isn't when it comes to what flattened primers look like? Yeah, I'm a visual learner :-). I gather the obvious sign is when the primer expands to where the gap between the edge of the primer and the flash hole are basically non existent. Does it have anything to do with the depth of the primer strike? I appreciate any education!

ChrisJn
04-16-2011, 09:49
I seated some bullets and tested them in the 40 to 9 barrel:



I am coming in very late in this thread and find it fascinating.
I liked your photos but would like to bring up a point in that are you sure your cases are seating fully in the barrel?
Your photo may be an optical illusion but to me it looks like you may be a couple thou' out.
http://londonphotography.biz/P1180305_2.jpg
Below is a photo I have taken to try and illustrate the difference I mean.
If yours is not an optical illusion then I would suspect the throat in your barrel is short.
http://londonphotography.biz/IMG_0776_2.jpg

ipscshooter
04-16-2011, 13:10
I liked your photos but would like to bring up a point in that are you sure your cases are seating fully in the barrel?
Your photo may be an optical illusion but to me it looks like you may be a couple thou' out.


Good point. I have a Kahr.45 that will not feed my reloads using Berry's bullets. Basically it will not go into battery reliably.

My reloads drop into a gage fine and feed in all my other 45's but not the Kahr. However, the Kahr is 100% reliable with factory loaded rounds.

I beleve it's a combination of the bullet dia. of .452 vs .451, the ogive shape, and the Kahr barrel chamber/leade being cut to the lower depth limit of the SAMMI specification. All this so they can claim "match" barrel for marketing purposes, when in real terms the gun is marketed as a CCW weapon.

I suppose, that with tolerances, it is possible your Glock conversion could go into battery, but the primer face is closer to the breech face than normal and pierces the primer. Of course, that doesn't fully explain why PMC pierce and Tula doesn't. Softer primer material? Possibe, as the Russians are known for making hard primers.

Sure keeps things interesting.

1006
04-16-2011, 16:41
I know I am late on this--

I skimmed through the posts. I can't offer anything on the pierced primmers. If they were from my gun, I would figure either soft primers or too hot a load. Either way, my G-35 would not run with a Lone Wolf 40 to 9 conversion with factory ammo or my reloads, until I got a lighter recoil spring setup. It runs great now. I think the G-35 slide is heavier than its G-34 counterpart. That is why the factory can use the same springs in each gun. The problem is not as pronounced in the G-22, and I have not met anyone with the problem in a G-22. I met lots of guys with the same problem and who are using the same solution with a G-35.

Good Luck

WiskyT
04-16-2011, 17:50
One thing I just thought of. Not only is the 40 caliber SLIDE heavier. But a conversion BARREL would be heavier as well. The outside diameter of the 40/9 barrel would be the same as the 40 cal barrel, but it's bore is one mm smaller so the walls are thicker. How much of a factor this is in the OP's problem I have no idea.