My LnL came back today. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 16:15
I'm not going to sugar coat it. This sucks. They did everything they said they would do but it still doesn't work right. The cases that line up right in front of the V block go in smooth as butter. If they fall outside the block a bit they will get pushed in fine. If they fall to far out the case rim gets caught in the new groove they cut in the sub-plate and never line up with the shellplate. So it's better but still not right. Priming is still not working with CCI. They prime high and require too much force. Federal prime easy and nice and low. CCI don't.

I don't know what I am going to do. This is depressing to be honest.

whenmonkeysfly
04-07-2011, 16:30
That SUCKS! I almost bought a LnL, but went with a XL-650 instead. Sounds like I probably made a good choice.

I am interested in Hornady's Bullet Feeder though and wonder how it works with a 650...?

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 16:39
Get the Dillon.

WiskyT
04-07-2011, 16:47
[sarcasm off] Sorry it's not working out well. [sarcasm on]

unclebob
04-07-2011, 17:02
That SUCKS! I almost bought a LnL, but went with a XL-650 instead. Sounds like I probably made a good choice.

I am interested in Hornady's Bullet Feeder though and wonder how it works with a 650...?

I have two friends that have the RCBS bullet feeders that they use on their 650 presses. Of what I have seen of the two bullet feeders I think I would get the RCBS but use the Hornady bullet seater.

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 17:08
He said Bullet Feeder. Yep. I have no comment.

Three-Five-Seven
04-07-2011, 17:14
Call Hornady in stead of bringin' yer *****in' here.

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 17:21
Call Hornady in stead of bringin' yer *****in' here.

Nice. I have been doing that for months now.

oldsoldier
04-07-2011, 17:29
You've put more than enough effort into this press. Might be time to ask for your money back and move on to something else.

sellersm
04-07-2011, 17:34
Bummer. Sorry to hear that....

I completely understand *why* a press might have issues with a particular brand of primer (or any other component), but it still irks me when they do....

It makes you have to keep a scorecard:
- Lee likes CCI and not Federal
- Hornady likes Federal and not CCI
- Dillon likes 'em all (??? I don't own a Dillon so not sure)
- etc. etc.

Yowzer. And this is supposed to be a relaxing hobby? :dunno:

Boxerglocker
04-07-2011, 17:35
I'm not going to sugar coat it. This sucks. They did everything they said they would do but it still doesn't work right. The cases that line up right in front of the V block go in smooth as butter. If they fall outside the block a bit they will get pushed in fine. If they fall to far out the case rim gets caught in the new groove they cut in the sub-plate and never line up with the shellplate. So it's better but still not right. Priming is still not working with CCI. They prime high and require too much force. Federal prime easy and nice and low. CCI don't.

I don't know what I am going to do. This is depressing to be honest.

Steve, why don't you simply call Horandy and relay what you have here in regards to the repaired press. Tell them you are not satisfied for the above reasons and request a new one?
Do you honestly feel the particular press you got is a lemon or the design is the problem?

dudel
04-07-2011, 17:36
Man that stinks. I wonder what primer they used to test the press with? Of course, you've probably got several thousand CCI primers. groan.

Might be time to cut your losses and get the 650.

I was soooooo close to getting a LNL at the end of last year. My luck was that they were sold out. Must be a lemon, they can't all have that problem. You can go back and forth with Hornady (I'm sure they will continue to work with you); but in the mean time, you need to get ammo made.

Bummer.

Angry Fist
04-07-2011, 17:38
< Soon to be a member of Blue Team.... :whistling:

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 17:45
Steve, why don't you simply call Horandy and relay what you have here in regards to the repaired press. Tell them you are not satisfied for the above reasons and request a new one?
Do you honestly feel the particular press you got is a lemon or the design is the problem?

The case-feeder/case shuttle sucks with 9mm brass shot out of my gun. Not sure how to explain it but the brass from my glock does not slide on the case but rocks on the primer flow around the firing pin strike. Dillon has a nice case retainer that is caliber specific and holds the edge of the case and allows the primer flow area to ride in a channel. This setup would solve all my issues with the LnL's case feeder setup.

Hornady admits that the LnL does not have the same leverage as the 650. So it takes more force to seat the primers. I can seat the CCI on the LnL if I use a nice snap at the end of the stroke to seat the primer. This tends to cause the case to jam rather then go into the shellplate. Federal seat easier to it's just not a issue at all.

I never had a issue with my 550 seating these very same primers.

AA#5
04-07-2011, 17:48
FWIW, CCI primers are slightly oversize. I prime with a Hornady Hand Priming Tool & when I use CCI primers, they do fit right (slightly below flush) but it takes more effort than Federal primers.

ron59
04-07-2011, 18:10
I have a 550B... out of the 33,000 of 9mm I've reloaded, probably 20,000 were CCI. I use Federal mostly now, but still have some CCI I load also. I do not see much of a difference in "pressure" I have to apply with the handle. If any, the Federal is a slight bit easier, but it's certainly not much.

The cases don't care, not sure what would be different about the press ?

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 18:29
When I measure my CCI and Federal they are practically the same.

Boxerglocker
04-07-2011, 18:46
The case-feeder/case shuttle sucks with 9mm brass shot out of my gun. Not sure how to explain it but the brass from my glock does not slide on the case but rocks on the primer flow around the firing pin strike. Dillon has a nice case retainer that is caliber specific and holds the edge of the case and allows the primer flow area to ride in a channel. This setup would solve all my issues with the LnL's case feeder setup.

Hornady admits that the LnL does not have the same leverage as the 650. So it takes more force to seat the primers. I can seat the CCI on the LnL if I use a nice snap at the end of the stroke to seat the primer. This tends to cause the case to jam rather then go into the shellplate. Federal seat easier to it's just not a issue at all.

I never had a issue with my 550 seating these very same primers.

I understand what your saying... but that sucks...

Have you found others that have encountered the problems you have in your research to find a fix?

Just staying, with everyone singing the LNL praises over the last year. I would be surprised that no one else shooting a Glock loading CCI's has had the same issue. :dunno:

If it were the Case Horandy should at least help you validate you claim or put a "DO NOT USE WITH GLOCK CASES AND CCI PRIMERS" on the side of the box.

sellersm
04-07-2011, 18:48
Dillon has a nice case retainer that is caliber specific and holds the edge of the case and allows the primer flow area to ride in a channel. This setup would solve all my issues with the LnL's case feeder setup.

Steve, I don't recall, but have you mentioned this to Hornady? Perhaps they need a redesign of their retainer/holder/thingy?

I guess at this point it's time to decide how much more time/energy/$$$$/lost-money you want to invest..... Perhaps a decision matrix? Or some kind of evaluative criteria? At the end of the day, if it's not working for you, then what good is it?

unclebob
04-07-2011, 18:51
:deadhorse::zipmouth:

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 19:15
I understand what your saying... but that sucks...

Have you found others that have encountered the problems you have in your research to find a fix?

Just staying, with everyone singing the LNL praises over the last year. I would be surprised that no one else shooting a Glock loading CCI's has had the same issue. :dunno:

If it were the Case Horandy should at least help you validate you claim or put a "DO NOT USE WITH GLOCK CASES AND CCI PRIMERS" on the side of the box.


People have stated on this and other forums about the priming issue and the tipping cases. Most the time they give the same advice I have tried. I have had several say they gave up on the LnL as well. The happy ones typically don't have a casefeeder. Also, if you used something other then CCI it would be a non-issue.

shotgunred
04-07-2011, 19:15
Sorry to hear that Steve. I would ask for another press and then sell the new one when it gets there. I am sure you would eventually get it figured out but we are fast approaching prime time shooting weather. Unless you are going to spend all season using lizards 1050 you are going to have to have a reliable press.

By the way my issue with my 650 case feeder was just an alignment issue. Who ever put it together and put the 9mm caliber conversion in didn't make sure every thing was true and adjusted. I figured it out just by playing with it. I didn't even have to stoop to reading the manual.

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 19:17
:deadhorse::zipmouth:

I had to at least give it a try after it got back.

ChrisJn
04-07-2011, 19:17
When I measure my CCI and Federal they are practically the same.

I feel your pain, Steve.

I just used the caliper and find Federal are .001" shallower than CCI.
I have run both through my almost new LNL as a comparison test.
They both seat fine at .002" - .004" below base of case but the Federal have a much better 'feel' going in.

I had problems with the case feeder in that .40S&W(Glock) cases would catch in the aluminum tube at the bottom of the plastic drop tube. This was cured by Hornady sending me a modified aluminum feed tube end. (I don't load 9mm).

The only other problem so far was the powder measure creeping loose. Again cured by Hornady sending me a couple of shims.

A slight alteration I am going to do this weekend is bend the lip of the bracket which sits under the shell plate base. I think it restricts movement of the base plate on the up stroke.

StaTiK
04-07-2011, 19:40
I had to at least give it a try after it got back.

Absolutely. It would have been silly to get rid of it when, presumably, Hornady just returned a custom hand-tuned press to you. I can tell you that if I was a Hornady rep I would have asked you to throw in a handful of your brass so that I could troubleshoot and guarantee a working product when it gets sent back to you. Plus, the Glock/CCI combo isn't exactly rare and if you're having a problem then others will too.

One downside that I'm sure you've thought about is that resale is going to suffer for as long as the rebate exists.

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 19:47
Absolutely. It would have been silly to get rid of it when, presumably, Hornady just returned a custom hand-tuned press to you. I can tell you that if I was a Hornady rep I would have asked you to throw in a handful of your brass so that I could troubleshoot and guarantee a working product when it gets sent back to you. Plus, the Glock/CCI combo isn't exactly rare and if you're having a problem then others will too.

One downside that I'm sure you've thought about is that resale is going to suffer for as long as the rebate exists.

-StaTiK-


I sent them brass and some loaded rounds with the high primers.

StaTiK
04-07-2011, 19:51
I've got to say that I'm disappointed. After reading a hundred LNL vs 550 vs 650 threads I thought I had my decision made... LNL w/out case feeder preferred over the 550 (for me personally) and then upgrade to a case feeder when and if I feel its needed later. Back to the drawing boards!

Of course, yours could just be a lemon. I know you mentioned others with the tipping and priming problems but I haven't found them, just post after post of satisfied customers. I will say though that Hornady does seem to be holding themselves to a No BS warranty of their own, so that's reassuring.

I must also say "Thank You" for your honesty and diligence in posting your problems. Some here may say that you're beating a dead horse but I, for one, am glad to hear first-hand statements regarding problems and customer service. Please keep us posted.

-StaTiK-

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 20:23
I have also received PM's but here are some examples from just brian enos forum. Also some on Cast Boolits forum.

Post #1 and #5 even mention using brute force.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123885

Post #7

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125569&pid=1420329&st=0&#entry1420329

Post #10

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124912

I can seat them with brute force. Like many in these threads describe.

n2extrm
04-07-2011, 20:26
Steve I don't want you to take this wrong, but you already know the answer. Dump it and get the 650 or if you can and think it's worth the money get a 1050. You are a guy who expects something to just work. You will never be happy settling for "i can make it work if I just......"

You are very honest with your opinion and evaluation of an item, others tend to hide the weak spot. Thats why you see so few complaints about this issue. My guess there are more out there then people realize.

For what it is worth I love both my 650s. I think you can make a ton of ammo in short order with it. Yes I guess the numbers don't lie it costs more to have a 650 with all the caliber conversions. Your sanity and happiness are worth the few bucks. Honestly if you have to skip a few little things to swing the 1050 and it will really make you happy, do it.

Call Hornady and tell them you want a refund since the press doesn't run and won't load ammo for the gun you shoot. The worst case they say no. If you can try for a new machine leave it in the box and sell it on Ebay. You probably could get enough on Ebay to fund 2 1050s!

Colorado4Wheel
04-07-2011, 20:37
That's pretty much the plan. I just don't think I can justify the 1050 for the little gain if really gets me. I never shoot crimped brass. I would like to avoid the push to prime thing but I don't think it's worth spending double.

IndyGunFreak
04-08-2011, 02:17
Dang Steve... I'm sorry you're having these issues. Hopefully this gets resolved to your satisfaction (either a refund or replacement so you can flip it).

I'm guessing you're going to be happy with the 650.

ron59
04-08-2011, 05:00
I've said this once but I'll say it again....


All this trouble because of the cost of the caliber conversions?? Which, for all the money you save by reloading in the first place, and the peace of mind of doing so *painlessly*.... hell, I'd pay double.

When I started loading .45ACP, I bought the high dollar Redding Competition dies, as well as the full on "quick change" setup from Dillon. Yeah, I spent another $300, but figure I'm WAY ahead by being a happy reloader. :)

Colorado4Wheel
04-08-2011, 05:54
I've said this once but I'll say it again....


All this trouble because of the cost of the caliber conversions?? Which, for all the money you save by reloading in the first place, and the peace of mind of doing so *painlessly*.... hell, I'd pay double.

When I started loading .45ACP, I bought the high dollar Redding Competition dies, as well as the full on "quick change" setup from Dillon. Yeah, I spent another $300, but figure I'm WAY ahead by being a happy reloader. :)

Well, until I got this thing all I talked to were happy LnL owners. Yep, hindsight is 20/20.

I don't think you would be as happy with that Redding Comp Seater if you used lead bullets. It's a perfect example of paying more but not getting more depending on your situation. My Lee holds a MUCH better OAL with my Lead bullets then that seater.

whenmonkeysfly
04-08-2011, 08:19
I really like my 650 and the "lifetime, No BS" warranty, which helped me decide to go with the 650 vs. the 1050. Caliber changes are also much cheaper on the 650. I got three "quick change" setups and large and small priming systems so I can load 10mm, 9x25 Dillon, 9mm and .223 on the machine. Also have the automatic case feeder. I've cranked-out 600+ rounds of 10mm and 9x25 Dillon an hour easily and know the machine could do 800-1000 if I got really serious about quantity.

The first couple of days I had the machine I spent a couple of hours talking to Dillon's Technical Support Line getting it tweaked correctly, but it's been smooth sailing since.

I agree with asking for a refund or boxing up your LnL and selling it on Ebay. Just a real PITA all the way around! Hope you get things resolved to your satisfaction.

jbrown13
04-08-2011, 10:39
Steve I agree with you on both issues. I've had my LNL for a little over 2 years and my case feeder about a year. I've had the same issues you have, but decided to live with them. I've loaded about 29,000 (28,648 to be exact) rounds of 9mm on the press and have experienced both of the issues you have. All my 9mm is shot through a G17 or G34. My solution is not what I would consider ideal, but I now prime by hand and live with the case feeder issues. I'm retired and have time to burn.

If I new for certain that the Dillon 650 was trouble-free I would go there, but I suspect the Dillon has its own set of issues. I would think this would be especially true of a case feeder because of the wide range of calibers that the machine has to handle. If there were some way to get rid of the retaining spring groove in the sub-plate, many of the LNL case feeder issues would disappear.

If you can get them to refund your money I would buy the 650. If you get the 650 give us an honest report on any issues with it. If you find it trouble-free, you may convince me to follow your lead.

IndyGunFreak
04-08-2011, 10:59
If I new for certain that the Dillon 650 was trouble-free I would go there, but I suspect the Dillon has its own set of issues. .

Every press has issues... My personal experience w/ the 650 is very similar to whenmonkeysfly. Few minor hiccups while learning the basics of the machine, etc.. After I got the hang of it, it's quite effortless. The priming system is pretty good. Keep it clean, and it should be pretty well good to go. I've not had any problems w/ mine, but I've read about people having issues w/ crushed primers, and also spent primers missing the cup. You also have to be careful about primers that don't end up in a case, "jumping" off the ramp... Personally after watching some Youtube Videos... I'm almost always convinced that priming issues, come back to bench/press movement during priming.

The primers flying off the ramp, isn't a huge deal.. I just pay attention when a primer isn't going into a case, and put my hand in front of it.

Boxerglocker
04-08-2011, 11:07
Steve I don't want you to take this wrong, but you already know the answer. Dump it and get the 650 or if you can and think it's worth the money get a 1050. You are a guy who expects something to just work. You will never be happy settling for "i can make it work if I just......"

You are very honest with your opinion and evaluation of an item, others tend to hide the weak spot. Thats why you see so few complaints about this issue. My guess there are more out there then people realize.

For what it is worth I love both my 650s. I think you can make a ton of ammo in short order with it. Yes I guess the numbers don't lie it costs more to have a 650 with all the caliber conversions. Your sanity and happiness are worth the few bucks. Honestly if you have to skip a few little things to swing the 1050 and it will really make you happy, do it.

Call Hornady and tell them you want a refund since the press doesn't run and won't load ammo for the gun you shoot. The worst case they say no. If you can try for a new machine leave it in the box and sell it on Ebay. You probably could get enough on Ebay to fund 2 1050s!

:agree: I highly doubt Horandy will say no... the fact of your open and honest evaluation of thier product should attest that the press has a major design issue.
Put it this way if they didn't, I'm not sure they will find it worth the ***** storm of critic they will get from other potential buyers after reading the facts in this post alone. Not to meantion the ones that will be initiated on othe forums :whistling:

dudel
04-08-2011, 11:08
I've said this once but I'll say it again....


All this trouble because of the cost of the caliber conversions?? Which, for all the money you save by reloading in the first place, and the peace of mind of doing so *painlessly*.... hell, I'd pay double.

When I started loading .45ACP, I bought the high dollar Redding Competition dies, as well as the full on "quick change" setup from Dillon. Yeah, I spent another $300, but figure I'm WAY ahead by being a happy reloader. :)

I have to agree. Conversion cost is a one time expense. Do it and that's it. If I had to get 20 of them, then maybe it would be an issue.

OTOH, I can see Steve's point. All the praise on LNLs last year, made them look golden. Get a great press AND cheaper conversion costs. Sorry it wasn't so.

Boxerglocker
04-08-2011, 11:21
I have to agree. Conversion cost is a one time expense. Do it and that's it. If I had to get 20 of them, then maybe it would be an issue.

OTOH, I can see Steve's point. All the praise on LNLs last year, made them look golden. Get a great press AND cheaper conversion costs. Sorry it wasn't so.

:upeyes: don't forget your FREE bullets....

Sorry, not to rub it in, but like I always said in many previous posts... there is a specific reason that Dillon 650 conversions cost more, for this... from the ground up designed casefeeder machine.... it is a little more complex, has a few more parts but it from design it works.

unclebob
04-08-2011, 11:23
For the ski ramp issue. Just get a piece of ½” inside diameter vinyl tubing about ½” long and slip it over the end of the ski ramp. No more primers hitting the floor from the ski ramp. If a primer does not seat make sure it does go down the ski ramp. If not you well have a primer jam.

StaTiK
04-08-2011, 18:12
I've said this once but I'll say it again....

All this trouble because of the cost of the caliber conversions?? Which, for all the money you save by reloading in the first place, and the peace of mind of doing so *painlessly*.... hell, I'd pay double.

I started to make a list of ways that the LNL is theoretically better than a 650 but that's been played before. :deadhorse: Suffice it to say that there are several advantages that aren't related to caliber conversion costs. There are also several drawbacks. Hopefully by the time I'm ready to buy one or the other some kinks will have been worked out.

That said, I'd be pissed if I had a LNL that required me to prime off the press. I'd rather have a Loadmaster (I hear they're very reliable if you don't, you know, actually use them to prime progressively :upeyes:).

-StaTiK-

kcbrown
04-08-2011, 19:17
Seems to me that no press that primes when you push foward should ever give high primers unless something's loose. It just shouldn't, and it doesn't matter what brand of primer you're using or anything else. Priming by pushing forward means you can feel when the primer hits bottom in the pocket. For that to even be possible, the priming system has to be set up so that nothing in the press has hit bottom when the primer is fully seated.

How do I know that this is how it works? Simple: I've had my primer punch back out of me on my Dillon 650 (it hadn't been tightened enough at the factory) and I didn't get high primers until it had backed out at least a turn. The fact that I wasn't getting high primers when the punch had been backed out at all means that it's the primer, and not the press, that is hitting the "stop" when the seating operation is done properly. And when you think about it, this makes sense: primers can vary in length slightly, case pockets can vary in depth slightly, and the press has to be able to handle the entire range of variation that both of those makes possible.

And that means the priming system itself can be set up to make it possible to seat any primer with movement to spare. If your press has a push-forward priming system and is seating high, it either means you've got an assembly issue (like my primer punch backing out), the press itself is fundamentally warped, or the design is defective.


The casefeeder, of course, is an entirely different problem.

jbrown13
04-08-2011, 20:21
Let me clarify my priming issue with my LNL. When priming on the press I was getting an occasional "high" primer (a primer that hadn't been seated all the way). The primer would not ignite on the first strike, but would always ignite on the second strike. By occasional I mean 1 out of every 300 or so. I don't know why I couldn't feel it when it happened, but I couldn't. So it wasn't a pervasive problem. I went to hand priming to see if that would reduce the frequency of "high" primers, and to date I have not had one primer that failed to ignite on the first strike. I find that there is more feel with the hand priming tool and have elected to continue to use it because I have plenty of time and prefer to have all my primers ignite on the first strike.

BENCH
04-08-2011, 21:46
I almost bought a LnL last week from BassPro, but bought an AK 47 instead.

I am torn between the LnL, and the 550b. I would load between 500-1500 rounds a month, which is not a lot compared to some you.

Will wait to see how this problem is resolved, but more that likely I will buy a Dillon.

Bench

EL_NinO619
04-08-2011, 22:25
What the hell man, tell them you want a new one. I don't see how you are having so many problems. I think priming on the LnL is a dream compared to the dillon..Sorry to hear it bud.

Mine cranked out 300 .308 and 300 .223 & 250 .45acp with out a hiccup. Not to rub it in, but that's why i have two because they are flawless ( well kinda, no press is flawless)
But my Dillon ammo box in the picture is very well designed..:supergrin:
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac135/Justin_Moreau/2011-03-31093430.jpg?t=1302323148

EL_NinO619
04-08-2011, 22:31
I almost bought a LnL last week from BassPro, but bought an AK 47 instead.

I am torn between the LnL, and the 550b. I would load between 500-1500 rounds a month, which is not a lot compared to some you.

Will wait to see how this problem is resolved, but more that likely I will buy a Dillon.

Bench

Don't let this story scare you off from a LnL, little stevie just forgot to watch the DVD that came with the press..:dunno:

PsychoKnight
04-09-2011, 08:34
I don't have any issues w/ case feeder or primer (other than the motor and tumbling brass is so dang loud next to my ear, and I had to modify it for GAP cases). I don't use CCI primers anymore, but I have put one through case each of lg and sml pistol when I first got the press (10k). I do remember doing a double pump when priming early on, then got the feel for how much pressure to apply for a single forward stroke - and it wasn't any kind of special effort. I had switched from a LoadMaster which primes on the upstroke and just wasn't used to having to apply forward pressure at all.

I noticed the Winchester primers went in a little easier and smoother (maybe a pound or two of less pressure applied, not a lot of difference), but I also had better luck with Win on the LoadMaster as well, so I just starting buying Win primers, but it wouldn't bother me to load with CCI if I had to; just push a tiny bit harder. I noticed the same difference the few times I handprimed.

There's not 50 people jumping in here to defend their LnL, because while Steve is in misery trying to figure it out, its impolite, rude and unfair. So El_Nin0 and I wait until his particular verdict is in. The LnL doesn't work for Steve. Fact. Maybe Jbrown too (where have you been, great support on this forum and others for help from peers?). Still, now that its over, there's no need to rub it in. Happy LnL users are happy LnL users and don't need to rally together: we are quietly content, minding our own business. This will be my only post w/ this purpose as well, and only because I notice fear spreading from a single incident.

There's also not 50 people here claiming they have LnL problems in general sufficient to switch over to Dillon, or to even regret their choice. And I suspect you won't hear it, because if there were such serious problems, we'd see thread after thread, after thread about it already. One thing I do know, Hornady responds to the need to correct minor flaws (EZ-ject, PM stopper, PM shims) and continually fine-tunes their product, and they have great customer service.

Peace out.
P.S., Steve - if there's anyway you can wait to refund/sell the LnL until after you get up and running with a Dillon, you'll avoid downtime. Just buy a box or two of something other than CCI primers to use temporarily?

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 08:52
Seems to me that no press that primes when you push foward should ever give high primers unless something's loose. It just shouldn't, and it doesn't matter what brand of primer you're using or anything else. Priming by pushing forward means you can feel when the primer hits bottom in the pocket. For that to even be possible, the priming system has to be set up so that nothing in the press has hit bottom when the primer is fully seated.

When I push hard enough to seat the CCI the shellplate will twist and the return spring for the Primer Shuttle hits the frame. Anyone who owns a LnL will know what I am talking about. Because the ram is twisting the punch is pushing them in sideways just a little.

Even Hornady admits the LnL requires 10lbs more pressure to seat a primer then the 650. That is what they told me on the phone.

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 08:56
Let me clarify my priming issue with my LNL. When priming on the press I was getting an occasional "high" primer (a primer that hadn't been seated all the way). The primer would not ignite on the first strike, but would always ignite on the second strike. By occasional I mean 1 out of every 300 or so. I don't know why I couldn't feel it when it happened, but I couldn't. So it wasn't a pervasive problem. I went to hand priming to see if that would reduce the frequency of "high" primers, and to date I have not had one primer that failed to ignite on the first strike. I find that there is more feel with the hand priming tool and have elected to continue to use it because I have plenty of time and prefer to have all my primers ignite on the first strike.


1/300 is horrible when I compare that to my 550 which was no high primers in a year. I expect my ammo to work.

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 09:03
I compared my fired brass yesterday to two others (XD and M&P) Mine is the only one with a primer flow around the primer strike. I think that is the issue with the casefeeder. The rest of it is working OK. Not great but good enough. I had to modify the motor in the bowl to keep the cases from falling out and hitting the floor. I had to make a shield (Just like Dillon Uses) to keep the cases from tipping as they went in the funnel. After those two things the casefeeder works fine. The shuttle just hates my brass. And Hornady made the grove to early in the sub-plate.

ron59
04-09-2011, 09:11
And Hornady made the grove to early in the sub-plate.

Little JB Weld in that part of the groove, filed/sanded smooth ?

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 09:32
Little JB Weld in that part of the groove, filed/sanded smooth ?

I thought about that too.

IndyGunFreak
04-09-2011, 10:15
Don't let this story scare you off from a LnL, little stevie just forgot to watch the DVD that came with the press..:dunno:

That seems pretty condescending.. His issues are obviously far beyond normal setup problems. Yeah, we all kid around (quite a bit) here, but when you were so frustrated w/ your primer problem, Steve was nice enough to ask questions/offer suggestions to fix the problem, without being condescending.

I'm glad yours are working well for you, but there's no real need to kick a guy while he's down... his problems are obviously WELL beyond a setup DVD.

IGF

jbrown13
04-09-2011, 10:32
PsychoKnight, the LNL works for me. If it didn't I would have already bought something else to mount on my bench. Does it have issues, yes. Can I live with them, yes. Everything works 99% plus of the time, and I'm not convinced anything else will do better. A machine (case feeder) that has to handle all the different calibers with a minimum of parts change, is a difficult assignment. If the feeder had a separate feed plate, down spout, pivot, pusher, etc. for 9mm, then I would expect it to work 100%. IMHO, a "universal" machine is bound to have some issues with certain calibers. As long as they're minor I can live with them. If the Dillon 650 were perfect I would buy it, but in this thread alone I'm hearing of an issue with primers falling on the floor and a user mod to correct that. I'm sure there are other minor issues for some users. I'm able to make quality ammo at a rate that satisfies my needs in the time I have available, so I'm getting the end result I had hoped for with the LNL. After using the LNL bushing system it would be difficult for me to have to adjust dies every time I switched calibers, and that alone would probably make the 650 less desirable to me.

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 12:03
Can I live with them, yes. Everything works 99% plus of the time, and I'm not convinced anything else will do better. A machine (case feeder) that has to handle all the different calibers with a minimum of parts change, is a difficult assignment. If the feeder had a separate feed plate, down spout, pivot, pusher, etc. for 9mm, then I would expect it to work 100%. IMHO, a "universal" machine is bound to have some issues with certain calibers.

You just described the difference between the LnL and the Dillon. LnL uses universal everything. All you can adjust on the slider is the depth of the case insertion and the timing. Dillon has a separate case guide for each caliber (with a grove for the priming area, my area of issue). Dillon has a separate drop tube for each caliber (Hornady has only two), Dillon has a separate insert for case sizes at the funnel area on the Case Feeder. Hornady has no such thing. I made one for my LnL solved that issue easily.

Maybe I will take some pictures later. I figured out pretty quick why the Hornady caliber conversions are cheaper. They simply don't include these items which take the press from 95% to 99.5%.

I had a Dillon case feeder on my 550. The Dillon Setup did not have any of the issues I am having on my LnL because of these unique pieces.

PsychoKnight
04-09-2011, 13:44
PsychoKnight, the LNL works for me. If it didn't I would have already bought something else to mount on my bench. Does it have issues, yes. Can I live with them, yes. Everything works 99% plus of the time, and I'm not convinced anything else will do better. A machine (case feeder) that has to handle all the different calibers with a minimum of parts change, is a difficult assignment. If the feeder had a separate feed plate, down spout, pivot, pusher, etc. for 9mm, then I would expect it to work 100%. IMHO, a "universal" machine is bound to have some issues with certain calibers. As long as they're minor I can live with them. If the Dillon 650 were perfect I would buy it, but in this thread alone I'm hearing of an issue with primers falling on the floor and a user mod to correct that. I'm sure there are other minor issues for some users. I'm able to make quality ammo at a rate that satisfies my needs in the time I have available, so I'm getting the end result I had hoped for with the LNL. After using the LNL bushing system it would be difficult for me to have to adjust dies every time I switched calibers, and that alone would probably make the 650 less desirable to me.

Jbrown13-
Are you still getting 1/300 ratio of misfires? Have you tried a different brand of primers, or more oomph to the forward push? Even pushing twice should be more efficient than priming by hand. Dang, if I primed by hand, I would not be using a progressive. I would also check to see if the primer punch assembly is screwed in tight to the bottom of the subplate. If it comes loose, it will not prime to maximum depth.

Boxerglocker
04-09-2011, 15:54
Let me clarify my priming issue with my LNL. When priming on the press I was getting an occasional "high" primer (a primer that hadn't been seated all the way). The primer would not ignite on the first strike, but would always ignite on the second strike. By occasional I mean 1 out of every 300 or so. I don't know why I couldn't feel it when it happened, but I couldn't. So it wasn't a pervasive problem. I went to hand priming to see if that would reduce the frequency of "high" primers, and to date I have not had one primer that failed to ignite on the first strike. I find that there is more feel with the hand priming tool and have elected to continue to use it because I have plenty of time and prefer to have all my primers ignite on the first strike.

1 in 300 is terrible! That is every practice session and at least once a match for me 2 or 3 matches a month.

kcbrown
04-09-2011, 17:17
When I push hard enough to seat the CCI the shellplate will twist and the return spring for the Primer Shuttle hits the frame. Anyone who owns a LnL will know what I am talking about. Because the ram is twisting the punch is pushing them in sideways just a little.


That most definitely sounds like a design problem. For me, that would be a fatal design fault.



Even Hornady admits the LnL requires 10lbs more pressure to seat a primer then the 650. That is what they told me on the phone.10 pounds is quite a lot. I would not be happy with that at all, because it would negate the sole advantage that push-to-prime has over priming on the upstroke of the ram: the ability to feel when the primer isn't being seated properly before you crush the primer.

If I'm going to crush primers when they're not being seated properly for whatever reason, and I'm going to have a press that may have a somewhat unreliable priming system, then I may as well use a Loadmaster.


A note on the Loadmaster: I've been able to make mine work reliably, but not quite as reliably as the Pro 1000. It doesn't crush primers very often, but when it does, it causes further issues that I've had to compensate for (for example, I use two seating and crimping dies in the Loadmaster, because a crushed primer will prevent the ram from going up quite as far as it otherwise would, and that causes the round in the seating die to be longer than it should be). I've also found that it takes more effort to operate the Loadmaster than the Pro 1000. I can go faster on the Loadmaster, but not so much faster that I really notice it.

So I'll probably use my Pro 1000 for most of my 9mm production, and occasionally use the Loadmaster just for a change of pace. :supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
04-09-2011, 17:27
I think it was 65lb vs 75lb. Something around that point.

jbrown13
04-09-2011, 20:14
Jbrown13-
Are you still getting 1/300 ratio of misfires? Have you tried a different brand of primers, or more oomph to the forward push? Even pushing twice should be more efficient than priming by hand. Dang, if I primed by hand, I would not be using a progressive. I would also check to see if the primer punch assembly is screwed in tight to the bottom of the subplate. If it comes loose, it will not prime to maximum depth.

Don't hang me on the 1 in 300 number, it was a WAG (I didn't keep track). May have been 1 in 400 or 1 in 500. All I know I was getting a silent first strike too often. Not critical in my case since I shoot for enjoyment only, not competition. I tried all the "oomph" I could muster and I kept an eye on the primer punch, and even had Hornady send me a second punch to see if it would help. It did not. This was the case with CCI, Winchester, Wolf and Magtech primers. Don't get any now that I hand prime.

I don't know what I would use other than a progressive for feeding my habit of shooting 450 rounds/week. Plus, that is what I already have and I certainly can't see scrapping the progressive and buying something slower. I throw primed brass in the case feeder and pull the handle 450 times (900 times if you count the depriming/sizing step) and produce a week's supply of ammo. What else will do that? It's why I bought the case feeder when I started to hand prime.

PsychoKnight
04-10-2011, 04:20
Got it.

If you're good, I'm good - Just trying to share ideas. What do we do with Steve? Poor guy.

dudel
04-10-2011, 05:17
That seems pretty condescending.. His issues are obviously far beyond normal setup problems. Yeah, we all kid around (quite a bit) here, but when you were so frustrated w/ your primer problem, Steve was nice enough to ask questions/offer suggestions to fix the problem, without being condescending.

I'm glad yours are working well for you, but there's no real need to kick a guy while he's down... his problems are obviously WELL beyond a setup DVD.

IGF

+1 Well said IGF. How quickly people forget.

n2extrm
04-10-2011, 09:25
I love all the comments on how one item is superior to another. Red VS Blue. It must be the user because if it was the press there wuld be thousands of threads about "the issue". I went through this with a G30 a couple of years ago. The gun finally got fixed by the new owner with the help of 2 revisions to the trigger bar from Glock. I could not wait I sold it to a guy who knew the issue and wanted it anyway.

Sometimes an item is just not for you, you don't like something about it. Thankfully we have E-bay Craig's list and for sale signs or we would not know what to do.

I am not picking on anyone or trying to start a fight but it doesn't work to Steve's expectations. It sucks it was a chunk of money he worked hard to earn. I don't like people trying to insult a pretty bright guy because of a poor design by some one else.

Colorado4Wheel
04-10-2011, 11:12
I think I am just going to sell it. I got a phone call into Hornady. I will get satisfaction from them or just get them to send me a new Sub-plate and sell it. With a new sub-plate I can sell it and the owner can decide what he wants to use. I think it's just a bunch of hard primers from CCI. It works great with Federal. It just does not meet my expectations.

Colorado4Wheel
04-11-2011, 14:08
Final Update.....

I got a return call today from Hornady. I had left a message at the very end of last week. She was in sales so I have no idea why I was talking to her but that is who they sent me to. Basically I reviewed my problem with her again I described all we had done, that I felt Hornady had really tried but that I was just not happy with the press and that I had 20K primers I could not use. She offered several options. Basically saying "we don't want to loose you as a customer". I thought it was just a line but turns out she was very serious. She offered lots of solutions. The only one that seemed good to me was to get a entirely new press. I said that was fine and if possible they could send it to me in a week when I found a new buyer for it. I explained that I was not comfortable selling this press to someone new but I would feel fine selling a new press. She replied that was too much trouble and if I was truly going to just walk away from the press she would get me my money back. I was stunned. We worked out the details and it should happen in the next week. She is sending a call tag for this press and case feeder. She thanked me for being polite and kind about the entire situation. She said that was rare for people to not be upset and yelling when they got to her. Several thing come to mind when I think about this situations.

1) Always treat people well. I know they keep notes about what you say when you call in. Be polite at all cost.
2) Hornady went out of their way to try and help me. They tried everything. They were always polite and helpful on the phone and never once asked me to return a item that I was unhappy with at my expense. For the record, Dillon has asked me to return an item at my expense before. Hornady has turned around this press in record time. They deserve to be commended for everything they did.
3) I think we have put to rest the entire "No B.S." warranty issue with Hornady. They truly stand behind their products. They have won the opportunity for my future business on a variety of other products in a big way. I don't think you could ask for better service.

I guess that's it then.

whenmonkeysfly
04-11-2011, 14:25
Final Update.....

I got a return call today from Hornady. I had left a message at the very end of last week. She was in sales so I have no idea why I was talking to her but that is who they sent me to. Basically I reviewed my problem with her again I described all we had done, that I felt Hornady had really tried but that I was just not happy with the press and that I had 20K primers I could not use. She offered several options. Basically saying "we don't want to loose you as a customer". I thought it was just a line but turns out she was very serious. She offered lots of solutions. The only one that seemed good to me was to get a entirely new press. I said that was fine and if possible they could send it to me in a week when I found a new buyer for it. I explained that I was not comfortable selling this press to someone new but I would feel fine selling a new press. She replied that was too much trouble and if I was truly going to just walk away from the press she would get me my money back. I was stunned. We worked out the details and it should happen in the next week. She is sending a call tag for this press and case feeder. She thanked me for being polite and kind about the entire situation. She said that was rare for people to not be upset and yelling when they got to her. Several thing come to mind when I think about this situations.

1) Always treat people well. I know they keep notes about what you say when you call in. Be polite at all cost.
2) Hornady went out of their way to try and help me. They tried everything. They were always polite and helpful on the phone and never once asked me to return a item that I was unhappy with at my expense. For the record, Dillon has asked me to return an item at my expense before. Hornady has turned around this press in record time. They deserve to be commended for everything they did.
3) I think we have put to rest the entire "No B.S." warranty issue with Hornady. They truly stand behind their products. They have won the opportunity for my future business on a variety of other products in a big way. I don't think you could ask for better service.

I guess that's it then.

Wow, I'm impressed and agree with you Colorado... treat people well, be polite... and kudos to a company with great customer service! I still want one of Hornady's Bullet Feeders for my XL650! :)

GioaJack
04-11-2011, 14:50
It's unfortunate the LNL didn't work out for you, a lot of frustration and you certainly did everything you could and it appears that Hornady did everything they could do to make sure you were a satisfied customer.

Pretty hard to find fault with a company that will go so far as to machine custom parts and when the customer still isn't satisfied offer a full refund. Kudos to them.

Wish I could find a, rent a lady for the night, with that kind of guarantee and customer service. :crying:


Jack

ron59
04-11-2011, 14:58
So.... whatcha buying? 1050? LOL

Or is a 650 more seriously your next press ?

WiskyT
04-11-2011, 15:16
Maybe you'll be able to buy a tank of gas with the chack they send you.

Colorado4Wheel
04-11-2011, 15:19
I have already ordered a 650. I just can't justify the 1050 for my needs. It sure would be nice but not needed.

XDRoX
04-11-2011, 15:28
I have already ordered a 650. I just can't justify the 1050 for my needs. It sure would be nice but not needed.

What did you get? Case feeder? Roller handle? Strong mount? Any extras?

Colorado4Wheel
04-11-2011, 15:45
Machine with Casefeeder. Roller handle but I don't know why I did that, Adams ball is pretty nice as well.

I will not be buying any conversions for it. My bench is at 48" so I don't need the strong mount or other stuff.

shotgunred
04-11-2011, 16:08
I must say taking it back and giving you a full refund at this point is impressive.

dudel
04-11-2011, 17:40
1) Always treat people well. I know they keep notes about what you say when you call in. Be polite at all cost.

+1 and an important lesson to others. You handled it well; and got treated well. My dealings with Hornady have always been top drawer. I wasn't always pleased with my Pro-Jector, but they've won lots of my business in other areas. I'm a big believer in Hornady. If you get the chance, they are great folks to visit out in Grand Island.

So when does the LCT arrive? :whistling:

sellersm
04-11-2011, 18:27
I must say taking it back and giving you a full refund at this point is impressive.

:agree: Kudos to all involved!

n2extrm
04-11-2011, 18:42
Steve,

While I am not glad that you had to go through all this, I am glad you are getting a refund. I think you will be very happy with the650, I LOVE mine. Just be very carefull. The 650 can lead to issues like buying a second one to speed up primers swaps and caliber conversions! :whistling:

unclebob
04-11-2011, 19:04
Steve,

While I am not glad that you had to go through all this, I am glad you are getting a refund. I think you will be very happy with the650, I LOVE mine. Just be very carefull. The 650 can lead to issues like buying a second one to speed up primers swaps and caliber conversions! :whistling:

Unless you just can’t stand taking 8 minutes to do a caliber conversion there is no need for a second 650. IMHO. All you need is a second primer magazine assembly. A lot cheaper than a second 650.

IndyGunFreak
04-12-2011, 01:41
Final Update.....

I got a return call today from Hornady. I had left a message at the very end of last week. She was in sales so I have no idea why I was talking to her but that is who they sent me to. Basically I reviewed my problem with her again I described all we had done, that I felt Hornady had really tried but that I was just not happy with the press and that I had 20K primers I could not use. She offered several options. Basically saying "we don't want to loose you as a customer". I thought it was just a line but turns out she was very serious. She offered lots of solutions. The only one that seemed good to me was to get a entirely new press. I said that was fine and if possible they could send it to me in a week when I found a new buyer for it. I explained that I was not comfortable selling this press to someone new but I would feel fine selling a new press. She replied that was too much trouble and if I was truly going to just walk away from the press she would get me my money back. I was stunned. We worked out the details and it should happen in the next week. She is sending a call tag for this press and case feeder. She thanked me for being polite and kind about the entire situation. She said that was rare for people to not be upset and yelling when they got to her. Several thing come to mind when I think about this situations.

1) Always treat people well. I know they keep notes about what you say when you call in. Be polite at all cost.
2) Hornady went out of their way to try and help me. They tried everything. They were always polite and helpful on the phone and never once asked me to return a item that I was unhappy with at my expense. For the record, Dillon has asked me to return an item at my expense before. Hornady has turned around this press in record time. They deserve to be commended for everything they did.
3) I think we have put to rest the entire "No B.S." warranty issue with Hornady. They truly stand behind their products. They have won the opportunity for my future business on a variety of other products in a big way. I don't think you could ask for better service.

I guess that's it then.

Wow, that is impressive. Kudos to Hornady.

Look at it this way, you know you're going to get another LCT, so you'll be happy again.. :rofl: . I think you're going to really like the 650.

IGF

Colorado4Wheel
04-12-2011, 07:10
Wow, that is impressive. Kudos to Hornady.

Look at it this way, you know you're going to get another LCT, so you'll be happy again.. :rofl: . I think you're going to really like the 650.

IGF

Actually, I very well might get a LCT. I ordered the 650 with no caliber conversions. I am going to wait and use the 650 for a while and figure out if it's worth converting it for my other calibers. I can always load my 10mm/380acp on the Lyman Turret Jack gave me. But I don't have a single stage powder measure any more. I really don't want to load SS style. Each caliber conversion on the 650 cost basically $100. So for $200 I can buy a LCT or two caliber conversions for the 650. Caliber conversions for the LCT cost $10. So the LCT is kinda a no brainer for these seldom used calibers. But I am going to wait. Bob says it's not so bad to convert the press. So I will give it some time.

StaTiK
04-12-2011, 08:21
A 650 w/casefeeder for volume calibers and a LCT for uncommon calibers (or rifle) sounds like a pretty solid idea.

-StaTiK-

shotgunred
04-12-2011, 14:20
Actually, I very well might get a LCT. I ordered the 650 with no caliber conversions. I am going to wait and use the 650 for a while and figure out if it's worth converting it for my other calibers. I

I am assuming you meant no additional caliber conversions. A 650 really isn't very useful with no caliber conversions.

GioaJack
04-12-2011, 14:29
I am assuming you meant no additional caliber conversions. A 650 really isn't very useful with no caliber conversions.


Given the way he shoots it really doesn't matter... bang or click, same result. :whistling:


Jack

StaTiK
04-12-2011, 14:38
Given the way he shoots it really doesn't matter... bang or click, same result. :whistling:


Jack

Zing! :tongueout:

Colorado4Wheel
04-12-2011, 14:59
I am assuming you meant no additional caliber conversions. A 650 really isn't very useful with no caliber conversions.

Well, it comes with a caliber conversion so yep, no additional caliber conversion.

hoffy
04-12-2011, 15:27
Colorado 4Wheel, I for one am glad you posted, the dead horse people I don't think realize the value of learning from other people. I have an LNLAP and it is horrid. It seems to seat primers alright, I have used Win, CCI, Fed, Remington with pretty much no issues. My problem is the **#@ thing will not hold an OAL, I mean it varies over 15 thousandths or more. It is maddening. And yes it is quite securely bolted to the bench and I have been loading since the '70s and using progressives (a Star Universal was my first ) since the mid-late '80s. I even got an inline RCBS Green Machine running for a customer when I worked at a gun shop. I took the LNL off the bench . I have a problem though. I bought the machine new, but it was a demo bolted to a shelf, and kids (or adults) had removed most of the little parts that could be removed. I have dealt with the guy running that shop since the '70s and he knows I worked in a gun shop for half dozen years myself. I looked up on line and got a good guess what it would take to get it running, and offered them 150$ if they could find the box, for the UPC if I had trouble. Well no box, but I bought it anyway. The bad news started rolling in when I ordered parts. My press is like serial # 207 or such, very low, they had no priming parts whatsoever that I needed. I had to buy a new ram head/shell plate holder, which was ok since I could now put a case feeder on it. I ended up spending on it for what I could have bought one through the mail for, so much for my good deal. Besides the OAL problem, I have broken a toggle, and later a handle, maybe priming is not all well. They gladly replaced those parts free. I need now to call them about my current problems. I would gladly exchange for a new press, as most seem to like them, I want to like the da** thing but I almost blew it up with tannerite, out of character for me. I have had surgeries and have to sue some idiot who ran me over on my motorcycle so the press got put on the back burner. I guess it would help if I had the shop I bought it from write me a letter explaining how I got it, Hornady might consider it used, hope not, I will blow it up before I unload it on some one unsuspecting, that is just not right. I am so bummd about the whole thing.

I bought it to replace an aging RCBS Ammomaster Progressive, which I bought used. The ram head is aluminum, and after about 30 k rounds it wears and allows the plate to tilt and interferes with priming. RCBS stepped up twice and gave me a new one even though I told them I had bought it used. It was starting to get just a little sloppy and liked he Hornady steel on steel. I hope Hornady treats me as well as Colorado4wheel. I bought a bunch of little parts too, like case retention springs and such so I would not have to wait for parts...... This has been by fay the most aggravating thing regarding reloading I have dealt with in the 30 + years I have been doing this. Sigh

kcbrown
04-12-2011, 16:21
Given the way he shoots it really doesn't matter... bang or click, same result. :whistling:


:rofl: :rofl:

kcbrown
04-12-2011, 16:40
I think it was 65lb vs 75lb. Something around that point.

That is insanely high. I'm using probably no more than 15 to 20 pounds of forward pressure on the handle of both my Dillon and my Pro 1000, if even that (typically). Most certainly no more than 30 pounds, when shoving a CCI primer into an S&B case (for instance). It's generally not really very much at all.