Roll my own SD 9mm loads! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Philippe
04-11-2011, 18:15
Hello everyone! This is a questioned aimed at you guys that reload your own Self Defense loads for the 9mm. I would like to get some ideas other than my own rolling. I only plan to use these for personal carry during a SHTF scenario. I have access to nearly every good powder to use for the 9mm, currently on my shelves i have Power Pistol, Bullseye, Universal, Ramshot Silhouette, TiteGroup, WSF. My choices for bullets locally are anything by Hornady, Speer, Sierra and Barns if its in stock. Personally im leaning towards using the Gold Dots and finding some good data for a near max load. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about roll your own SD loads for the 9mm.

Boxerglocker
04-11-2011, 18:47
I don't here is some light reading on why:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1286956&highlight=reloads

:deadhorse: topic

I do however load my own SD practice rounds with 147 GDHP's and Power pistol.

shotgunred
04-11-2011, 19:57
Power Pistol, Universal, and WSF are good powder choices for SD practice equivalents.
Pick a bullet of the same weight and crono until you get the same velocity.

Philippe
04-11-2011, 20:33
I don't here is some light reading on why:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1286956&highlight=reloads

:deadhorse: topic

I do however load my own SD practice rounds with 147 GDHP's and Power pistol.

Im not using them for my every day carry gun. I have factory Ranger ammo for that.

gwalchmai
04-11-2011, 21:02
Search AA7 under the 147.

Zombie Steve
04-11-2011, 21:08
124 grain XTP + Unique.

fredj338
04-12-2011, 00:35
124 grain XTP + Unique.
A fine choice, as are the 124gr RGS or SpeerGDHP, even the bulk 124gr Rem JHP from Midway. I do not advocate daily carry of handloads, just seems to be small problem I would rather not have on my plate if involved in a shooting. FOr SHTF, makes a lot of sense stockpiling some handldoads put up in once fired brass, vs spending a bunch of money on ammo you are likely never going to shoot.
WSF or Unique or PP make good +P loads, easily hitting 1200fps w/ a 124grJHP. I would use carefully inspected once fired brass.:dunno:

FiremanMike
04-12-2011, 06:17
My PD does dictate what rounds I carry, but even if they didn't I would carry factory ammunition.

Factory ammunition has undergone exhaustive testing in all applications and been proven reliable. While my reloads always go bang and cycle my gun, I would never trust the ballistic performance of a recipe that hasn't been through the gamut of testing from trained professionals.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 06:21
Factory ammunition has undergone exhaustive testing in all applications and been proven reliable. While my reloads always go bang and cycle my gun, I would never trust the ballistic performance of a recipe that hasn't been through the gamut of testing from trained professionals.Just curious, what would the gamut consist of, exactly, and what would be the training of these professionals?

Smoker
04-12-2011, 06:24
Jeeezzz, lets discuss oil vs grease or another topic thats not beat into the ground.

jmorris
04-12-2011, 06:38
I guess every round I load could be an SD load but none of them ever have been. Up close with enough attackers to make Chuck Norris run and hide (that's SHTF for you), if I had to use a pistol, it would be one of my open pistols. Major 9 is hotter than any factory ammo (115@1480fps) and even if I didn't hit them, they would be deaf.

Legally, I wouldn't be worrying about anything except winning, if I were ever in a save life event. However, I have to admit I spent more time thinking how to "stay out" of trouble than "get out".

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 06:47
What would be the legal implications of shooting a bad guy with target handloads you'd left in your CCW weapon after range practice?

Boxerglocker
04-12-2011, 06:53
What would be the legal implications of shooting a bad guy with target handloads you'd left in your CCW weapon after range practice?

You really should read the thread I posted a link of above. It may enlighten you on some very interesting facts regarding the topic. Pay particular attention to the posts by Mas and David.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 06:56
You really should read the thread I posted a link of above. It may enlighten you on some very interesting facts regarding the topic. Pay particular attention to the posts by Mas and David.

I really have read them.

Boxerglocker
04-12-2011, 08:24
You really should read the thread I posted a link of above. It may enlighten you on some very interesting facts regarding the topic. Pay particular attention to the posts by Mas and David.

Maybe not :upeyes:

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 08:26
Maybe not :upeyes:Don't feel bad. People can disagree. ;)

fredj338
04-12-2011, 09:25
What would be the legal implications of shooting a bad guy with target handloads you'd left in your CCW weapon after range practice?

It's been beat to death & there are those that will always think they know more than the professionals that actually design & develope the ammo. Using a handload for full time slef def will be about how you articulate why. If it was what you had in your gun after range time, I doubt it goes furtther than that. If you sepnt hours developing & testing your load that you sepcifically put up for use against that poor misguided gang banger, well, you are not likely going to jail, but you are so getting sued by the survivers.:upeyes:

Zombie Steve
04-12-2011, 11:05
However you feel about the carrying handloads issue, I still think it's prudent to get your load development out of the way. Remember all the people whining that couldn't find any ammo when Obama got elected? Remember the rush for ammo in 1999? Legislation, price hikes, zombie infestation :whistling:... any number of factors might change your opinion on the subject. I think it best to have gone through your testing and have a bunch made up just in case.

Colorado4Wheel
04-12-2011, 11:58
I only plan to use these for personal carry during a SHTF scenario.

I don't think loading your own for a SHTF situation is going to have any negative consequences. All lawyers will be dead already, no way they get to live with all the people hating them.

sellersm
04-12-2011, 12:03
I don't think loading your own for a SHTF situation is going to have any negative consequences. All lawyers will be dead already, no way they get to live with all the people hating them.
:rofl:

I think fredj338 gave some sound advice. I'd probably use Power Pistol or Unique, just cuz I've got lots of it..... I think in SHTF, any 'good' JHP would work fine.

As ZombieSteve said, work 'em up now, and then start pulling the handle to begin making & storing them. If you never need them, sell 'em!

fredj338
04-12-2011, 12:53
However you feel about the carrying handloads issue, I still think it's prudent to get your load development out of the way. Remember all the people whining that couldn't find any ammo when Obama got elected? Remember the rush for ammo in 1999? Legislation, price hikes, zombie infestation :whistling:... any number of factors might change your opinion on the subject. I think it best to have gone through your testing and have a bunch made up just in case.
Agreed. I have to admit, my SHTF ammo supply is quite small compared to some. I figure I can't carry a lot if I have to bug out. If I am barracading in my house, then I can crank out ammo @ 400rds/hr+.:supergrin:
Also, as to working up SHTF loads, best to do your load developemnt w/ at least two diff powders & bullets. If things get skinny, better to have options. Get into casting your own LHP & you can even beat a bullet shortage. I can always get ww, all I need is a screwdriver & pliers.:rofl:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

Zombie Steve
04-12-2011, 13:30
I'm getting there, fred... albeit keith style boolits, not hp's. :cool:

GioaJack
04-12-2011, 13:34
In a SHTF scenario the first thing I'm going to do is break into the local pharmacy and liberate all the Viagra... if you're going to go through all the trouble of trying to survive you might as well have a reason for living.

Oh, I'm gonna get the Metamucil too. :whistling:


Jack

Zombie Steve
04-12-2011, 13:35
Hoarder.

fredj338
04-12-2011, 13:35
In a SHTF scenario the first thing I'm going to do is break into the local pharmacy and liberate all the Viagra... if you're going to go through all the trouble of trying to survive you might as well have a reason for living.

Oh, I'm gonna get the Metamucil too. :whistling:


Jack
AH yes, 45acp, the ultimate charge card during SHTF.:rofl:

Boxerglocker
04-12-2011, 13:40
any number of factors might change your opinion on the subject. I think it best to have gone through your testing and have a bunch made up just in case.

The one thing that sums up my stance regarding this carry you reloads topic is clearly outlined by MAS and David in the thread I mentioned.
Mandated by our countrys courts structure. You as a defendant cannot bring forward any evidience manufactured by yourself in your own defense. Meaning all the testing, documentation, excel spreadsheets, pictures, ballistic gel samples are not gonna help you one bit... in defense of you using your "Zombie killing depleted unobtanium alloy" better than factory SD ammunition reloads when you are on the other side of a civil lawsuit.
Better to buy and carry factory preferable something used by your local LEO's available to the public, keep the box with lot number for the current carry rotation ammo. Then if something does happen supply that info to the police/courts and that issue will be expedited quickly and put you in the clear.
That being said, no objection on my part to develop SHTF ammo, in case the apocolypse does happen.

Zombie Steve
04-12-2011, 13:46
Testing is for my benefit, not the court. I'm seriously more worried about lightning strikes when I go hiking than I am about getting in trouble for handloads. I think some of you folks need to move to a more gun friendly state.


Aaaaand, we're off topic once again. Enjoy paying 2-3X as much for your ammo.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 14:09
How many of you know the lot number of the factory ammo in your gun right now?

Colorado4Wheel
04-12-2011, 15:02
Testing is for my benefit, not the court. I'm seriously more worried about lightning strikes when I go hiking than I am about getting in trouble for handloads. I think some of you folks need to move to a more gun friendly state.


Aaaaand, we're off topic once again. Enjoy paying 2-3X as much for your ammo.


I was out in the woods Hunting with my 44mag and the a-hole jumped me so I shot him.

My carry gun has factory ammo. Just because I don't want to load that ammo. It's just not worth the trouble. I could see it as fun but I just prefer to carry factory in my .380 and 9mm.

AJE
04-12-2011, 15:12
Here is a question...

If you use nickel plated brass, CCI primers, and Gold Dots............... how is anybody going to know they are reloads (or your own loads). ??

PCJim
04-12-2011, 15:43
Here is a question...

If you use nickel plated brass, CCI primers, and Gold Dots............... how is anybody going to know they are reloads (or your own loads). ??

I'm not in law enforcement, but I know that anytime someone inflicts harm with a firearm, it is investigated. Take a person's life with that firearm and you, the firearm and the circumstances will be even more thoroughly investigated.

If it involved me... once LE starts investigating, they will quickly learn that I am a reloader. I don't hide the fact and wouldn't want to do so in such a situation. Then consider that most ammo manufacturers use powders that are not available to reloaders. Whether Speer does, I don't know.

That being said, I would think that powder residue could be tested to determine its chemical composition - whether is was what Speer uses or off the shelf. If it can be tested, the plaintiff's attorneys would have a field day in court and my attorney would be hearing the harmonious sounds of Pink Floyd's "Money".

Figure that one hour with a good attorney will run you $400 or more, and a 20 round box of factory SD ammo will cost you $40, I'll carry the factory ammo and pray I never have to use it. Then again, if all I have with me are my reloads, I won't hesitate to use them when warranted.

AJE
04-12-2011, 16:48
I've never known a shooting investigation to tear apart ammunition to examine the contents. I guess it may have happened in the past, but the course of the investigation is to determine criminal activity on the parties involved, of which, the chemical composition of the gun powder used is pretty much on the bottom of the list. What you described would be more likely the plot of a CSI episode than in an actual self defense shooting investigation.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 16:50
I'm not in law enforcement, but I know that anytime someone inflicts harm with a firearm, it is investigated. Take a person's life with that firearm and you, the firearm and the circumstances will be even more thoroughly investigated.I have seen several posts by LEOs on this topic to the effect that it's rarely an issue. Why would an agency spend the money investigating a good shoot?

shotgunred
04-12-2011, 17:14
Here is all I have to say on the subject. I challenged Massad Ayoob a strong proponent of not carrying reloads to find me one case were carrying reloads made a difference in an other wise good shoot. That was several years ago. I am still waiting....

Boxerglocker
04-12-2011, 17:54
Here is all I have to say on the subject. I challenged Massad Ayoob a strong proponent of not carrying reloads to find me one case were carrying reloads made a difference in an other wise good shoot. That was several years ago. I am still waiting....

Mike, sorry bro but I've read you debates with Mas and you thoroughly missed the point. It never makes a difference in the criminal trial... other than your paying your lawyer to dispute it for you on the clock. Where it really hurts you in in the civil trial, again in the pocket book.

Philippe
04-12-2011, 17:59
Amazing how ego's and opinions can quickly ruin a thread. All i asked for was some simple information guys. All i wanted was opinions on some safe but hot loads that i can load up myself to carry if all hell breaks loose. Once again i will not be carrying these in my everyday firearm, i have factory ammo for this. I totally understand the reasons why i should not carry reloads in my carry weapon. I personally believe the reasons that people should not are BS and a myth. Back on topic please.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 18:02
Back on topic please.AA7 performs very well under 147gr 9mm bullets....

Philippe
04-12-2011, 18:03
AA7 performs very well under 147gr 9mm bullets....

Interesting, any specific reason why you would choose a 147 gr over 124gr?

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 18:07
Interesting, any specific reason why you would choose a 147 gr over 124gr?I like the extra weight, and I can get over 1000fps MV.

gwalchmai
04-12-2011, 18:41
See about 147s

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1264047

fredj338
04-12-2011, 19:13
I have seen several posts by LEOs on this topic to the effect that it's rarely an issue. Why would an agency spend the money investigating a good shoot?

THis isn;t going to cause you a criminal idnictment, but a good (or ****ty) lawyer is oging to use it in the civil case against you. I doubt anyone is seriously thinking a good sgooting w/ a handload is going to bring criminal prosecution, but ahh, the civil case. I do NOT want to give some dirtbag attorney any ammo (pun intended) to hang me w/ for shooting jonny gangbanger. His family will sue you if he does not. It only takes 7 of 12 to convict & you are spending $1000 or $1000 to defend yourself. Using commercail ammo that is equiv to your local LEA is easily justified. It is always about the best show in a civil trial, not who is right or wrong.:dunno:

fredj338
04-12-2011, 19:14
Amazing how ego's and opinions can quickly ruin a thread. All i asked for was some simple information guys. All i wanted was opinions on some safe but hot loads that i can load up myself to carry if all hell breaks loose. Once again i will not be carrying these in my everyday firearm, i have factory ammo for this. I totally understand the reasons why i should not carry reloads in my carry weapon. I personally believe the reasons that people should not are BS and a myth. Back on topic please.
It's a forum, you have to expect opinions along w/ any useable answers. Part of playing the forum game.:dunno:

GIockGuy24
04-12-2011, 19:40
I like Ramshot Silhouette and Speer Gold Dot bullets.

Philippe
04-12-2011, 20:03
It's a forum, you have to expect opinions along w/ any useable answers. Part of playing the forum game.:dunno:

I also expect everyone on a firearms forum to act like adults. I fully understand that some topics have been beaten to death, but no need to let it bleed over into another persons thread or rekindle it and let it devour someones post that is simply asking for help. Sorry if i seem crabby, i just like simple answers, not alot of bickering:supergrin:

Philippe
04-12-2011, 20:04
I like Ramshot Silhouette and Speer Gold Dot bullets.

I cannot for the life of me find Ramshot products around here! I have been really wanting to try their Enforcer and True blue in my .357 mag.

Philippe
04-12-2011, 20:04
See about 147s

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1264047

TY sir!

shotgunred
04-12-2011, 20:08
I also expect everyone on a firearms forum to act like adults. I fully understand that some topics have been beaten to death, but no need to let it bleed over into another persons thread or rekindle it and let it devour someones post that is simply asking for help. Sorry if i seem crabby, i just like simple answers, not alot of bickering:supergrin:

Your question was fully answered by the 7 post.

GIockGuy24
04-12-2011, 20:19
I cannot for the life of me find Ramshot products around here! I have been really wanting to try their Enforcer and True blue in my .357 mag.

Ramshot Enforcer is very similar to Accurate #9 and Ramshot True Blue is very similar to Hodgdon HS-6. Silhouette is the unique Ramshot powder that is very similar to discontinued Winchester Action Pistol powder.

PCJim
04-12-2011, 22:05
I've never known a shooting investigation to tear apart ammunition to examine the contents. I guess it may have happened in the past, but the course of the investigation is to determine criminal activity on the parties involved, of which, the chemical composition of the gun powder used is pretty much on the bottom of the list. What you described would be more likely the plot of a CSI episode than in an actual self defense shooting investigation.

I will agree that it does sound more like a CSI plot, however as I said I am not in LE. I am pretty sure there are scientific means available that should the DA or plaintiff attorney wish to pursue, it would just further add to the initial bad misfortune of having been in the wrong place.....

THis isn;t going to cause you a criminal idnictment, but a good (or ****ty) lawyer is oging to use it in the civil case against you. I doubt anyone is seriously thinking a good sgooting w/ a handload is going to bring criminal prosecution, but ahh, the civil case. I do NOT want to give some dirtbag attorney any ammo (pun intended) to hang me w/ for shooting jonny gangbanger. His family will sue you if he does not. It only takes 7 of 12 to convict & you are spending $1000 or $1000 to defend yourself. Using commercail ammo that is equiv to your local LEA is easily justified. It is always about the best show in a civil trial, not who is right or wrong.:dunno:

Exactly the point - it is the potential for costly civil suit that could ruin you financially. Guess its been a while since I last used an attorney. $1K+/hour? I'm definitely in the wrong field.

fredj338
04-13-2011, 00:05
I cannot for the life of me find Ramshot products around here! I have been really wanting to try their Enforcer and True blue in my .357 mag.

Same reason I don't use VV powders either, not always in the local shops, but the internet allows you to buy just about anywhere.

dudel
04-13-2011, 02:15
Don't feel bad. People can disagree. ;)

Of course they can. But when untrained people disagree with professionals, you gotta wonder.

dudel
04-13-2011, 02:22
How many of you know the lot number of the factory ammo in your gun right now?

The box it came in is stored until the ammo is cycled out. It's not like I have to keep track of dozens of boxes. With all I save reloading, two - three boxes of factory ammo won't break the bank.

dudel
04-13-2011, 02:26
I have seen several posts by LEOs on this topic to the effect that it's rarely an issue. Why would an agency spend the money investigating a good shoot?

The civil trial can ruin you as much as the criminal criminal trial. In the civil trial, the opposing party will pretty much pull out the stops on what they will check. You may still "win"; but it will cost you (and your family).

That said, people are free to carry whatever they want. It's all about risk management. Factory SD for me, with reloads should they run dry (or I shoot worse than during drills).

dudel
04-13-2011, 02:31
Amazing how ego's and opinions can quickly ruin a thread. All i asked for was some simple information guys. All i wanted was opinions on some safe but hot loads that i can load up myself to carry if all hell breaks loose. Once again i will not be carrying these in my everyday firearm, i have factory ammo for this. I totally understand the reasons why i should not carry reloads in my carry weapon. I personally believe the reasons that people should not are BS and a myth. Back on topic please.

Then you should have tried the search feature. It would have a) shown you this is a topic that's been beaten to death and b) would have given you an answer (though not necessarily one you wanted).

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 04:39
Of course they can. But when untrained people disagree with professionals, you gotta wonder.Could you be specific?

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 04:40
The box it came in is stored until the ammo is cycled out. It's not like I have to keep track of dozens of boxes. With all I save reloading, two - three boxes of factory ammo won't break the bank. So that's one.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 04:51
The civil trial can ruin you as much as the criminal criminal trial. In the civil trial, the opposing party will pretty much pull out the stops on what they will check. You may still "win"; but it will cost you (and your family).This keeps coming up so I'll ask - is your point that if one carries factory ammo one will not be sued? This opposing party can just as easily work the "cop wannabe" angle, the "deadly factory hollowpoint angle", and the "military FMJ" angle. Not to mention bringing up the fact that you're so obsessed with killing someone that you keep a record of the lot numbers of the deadly hollowpoint ammo you carry ("Which is banned by the Geneva Convention, ladies and gentlemen of the jury..."). Something else to think about.

That said, people are free to carry whatever they want. It's all about risk management. Factory SD for me, with reloads should they run dry (or I shoot worse than during drills).I agree, and what I carry is my bidness. Looking back, I can't recall many posts in these forums where handloaders get all righteous and lecture folks (even "professionals" :upeyes:) that they shouldn't carry factory loads.

Colorado4Wheel
04-13-2011, 07:03
So that's one.

I keep my factory ammo boxes as well. When I shoot them I keep the replacement and use the old one for reloads. Never thought about it from a liability point of view. I just like to know what I have.

fredj338
04-13-2011, 09:16
This keeps coming up so I'll ask - is your point that if one carries factory ammo one will not be sued? This opposing party can just as easily work the "cop wannabe" angle, the "deadly factory hollowpoint angle", and the "military FMJ" angle. Not to mention bringing up the fact that you're so obsessed with killing someone that you keep a record of the lot numbers of the deadly hollowpoint ammo you carry ("Which is banned by the Geneva Convention, ladies and gentlemen of the jury..."). Something else to think about.
.

Warning :arg:All very true & the point exactly, now you want to hand the lawyer a freebee by handloading too? Might as well your ninja shirt to court & make sure you use ethnic slurs. It is about mitigating the affects of any shooting. Yes, your gun, ammo, the way you dress, speak, act, etc, all that will come into play in a civil court. SO most will say, let's give them as little to work with as possible. I can justify why I carry factory, whether FMJ or JHP, most can't justify why they carry handloads.:dunno:
It's always about articulation, "why were you carrying handloads Mr Ninja"? Kinda tough to answer unless you were say just coming form the range or form the field hunting. Now, "why were you carrying JHP that the LE carries Mr Fred"? "Well the LE carries JHP to limit overpentration in a defensive situation. I know so little about ammo I just asked my local PD"? SOmething like that is far easier to justify to a no nothing jury. Any good attorney will try to make you into a cold blooded killer regardless of what you use. Using a tricked out pistol w/ skull & cross bones grips & handloads isn't going to help your case w/ people that don't even own guns. They'll look upon you as a kook, in his garage making ammo for the day he gets to put nasty JHP into a poor defensless, misguided youth. As noted, everyone is free to do as they please, but no one has benn able to tell me yet why they think handloads are a better way to go vs factory.

Zombie Steve
04-13-2011, 09:20
We gotta get you out of California, fred.


Colorado's "Make My Day Law" shields you from civil suit as well.

fredj338
04-13-2011, 09:25
We gotta get you out of California, fred.


Colorado's "Make My Day Law" shields you from civil suit as well.
You would have to go over that w/ an attorney. There is no such thing as blanket absolution against prosecution. Every situation will be diff. Yep, getting out of Kalif has been on my agenda for awhile now, but Colorado got nixed, too many Kalif moving there.:supergrin:

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 09:35
I can justify why I carry factory, most can't justify why they carry handloads.:dunno:Most posters I've see who say they carry handloads seem to understand why they do so.

ETA:
It's always about articulation, "why were you carrying handloads Mr Ninja"? Kinda tough to answer unless you were say just coming form the range or form the field hunting. Now, "why were you carrying JHP that the LE carries Mr Fred"? "Well the LE carries JHP to limit overpentration in a defensive situation. I know so little about ammo I just asked my local PD"? Why wouldn't the handloader respond in the same vein: "'Cause the local PD carries JHP but I can't afford those high prices so I load my own."

SuperJared
04-13-2011, 10:04
I can justify why I carry factory, whether FMJ or JHP, most can't justify why they carry handloads.:dunno:
It's always about articulation, "why were you carrying handloads Mr Ninja"? Kinda tough to answer unless you were say just coming form the range or form the field hunting

It is not difficult to explain why someone would use hand loads. Cost. It’s the same reason I purchase store brands instead of name brands. I think a jury of your peers could relate to that.

That is a lot simpler than trying to claim that hand loads are more deadly than factory loads when you can walk into almost any store and purchase +P ammo when reloading data doesn’t even exist for ammunition that is “that deadly”. But the “experts” have no problem with +P or +P+ ammo.

dudel
04-13-2011, 10:35
ETA:
Why wouldn't the handloader respond in the same vein: "'Cause the local PD carries JHP but I can't afford those high prices so I load my own."

Well, I can see that one going down well. So, you can't afford a $30 box of ammo, but you can afford a a $600 press. You can also afford to buy projectiles by the thousand, primers by the case and powder by the 8# keg. You do this to save money? How much have you saved? Still can't afford a $30 box of ammo? No problem, you'll pay many times that in legal fees.

I don't think a handloader would be foolish enough to try that for a defense. Seems like there would be a big credibility problem.

dudel
04-13-2011, 10:43
Could you be specific?

Well, take a look at most any of the Mas and David threads. Both are expert witnesses in the legal (notice I didn't say justice) system.

The argument seems to go. Someone posts an opionion, Mas (or David) gives an example where it's not the case, the OP (or someone else) then either a) presents a wild example or b) asks for another example with changed parameters.

If you want a specific one (because I try to avoid those threads), the one that comes to mind was C1 vs C3. David mentioned that there are many countries that teach C3. The C1 crowd will still insist that no one carries C3.

Like I said, people will carry what they want, and that's their choice. It's strange that newb loaders want to load their own SD ammo, heck, I started that way. OTOH, most of the experienced reloaders on this forum buy factory SD ammo.

Coincidence? I think not.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 11:16
Well, I can see that one going down well. So, you can't afford a $30 box of ammo, but you can afford a a $600 press. You can also afford to buy projectiles by the thousand, primers by the case and powder by the 8# keg. You do this to save money? How much have you saved? Still can't afford a $30 box of ammo? No problem, you'll pay many times that in legal fees.

I don't think a handloader would be foolish enough to try that for a defense. Seems like there would be a big credibility problem.Not at all. The reloader already had all these things as part of his hobby.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 11:23
Well, take a look at most any of the Mas and David threads. Both are expert witnesses in the legal (notice I didn't say justice) system.Mas can't cite specifics and requires his audience to accept his authority on its own. That's hard to get people to do on the webz. You can't really blame people for not accepting an example when they can't read the case.

Philippe
04-13-2011, 11:28
Can anyone actually provide me with any facts from actual legal battles from an individual using hand loaded ammo in a defensive shooting where the shooter is actually convicted based on their decision to use that specific ammo?

GIockGuy24
04-13-2011, 11:59
Can anyone actually provide me with any facts from actual legal battles from an individual using hand loaded ammo in a defensive shooting where the shooter is actually convicted based on their decision to use that specific ammo?

I think the discussion is more about civil law suits than criminal prosecution. Scroll up if you missed my response about the Ramshot powders.

GIockGuy24
04-13-2011, 12:05
I have seen more than a few times places that allowed ammunition to be returned to the store. I have even seen go straight back on the shelf. Was it replaced with cheaper ammo in the box? Was it replaced with hand loads? I know there are stores that also don't accept ammunition returns but the ones that do, shouldn't resell it. A friend bought a box of defective Remington ammo. He took it back to the sporting goods store where he bought it. He told them it was defective. They gave him a refund. Later we saw the same box back on the shelf and he told them again that box has defective ammo in it. They acted like they didn't know what he was talking about and they didn't care.

Colorado4Wheel
04-13-2011, 12:07
It's like a extra $15 bucks per gun you carry to buy Factory vs Reloads for each gun. To me thats not a big deal. I would not shoot much of that and I definately make my own practice ammo to duplicate the carry stuff.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 12:13
Like I said, people will carry what they want, and that's their choice. It's strange that newb loaders want to load their own SD ammo, heck, I started that way. OTOH, most of the experienced reloaders on this forum buy factory SD ammo.

Coincidence? I think not.Now, Dudel, don't take this the wrong way. I've followed your posts for years and know you're a conscientious reloader. But how in the heck do you know what "most of the experienced reloaders in this forum" carry? Or even what they buy, for that matter? My bet is that most of the experienced reloaders in this forum have never even posted on this furball subject.

fredj338
04-13-2011, 13:42
Most posters I've see who say they carry handloads seem to understand why they do so.

ETA:
Why wouldn't the handloader respond in the same vein: "'Cause the local PD carries JHP but I can't afford those high prices so I load my own."
Cost is the most ridiculois reason to carryyour own handloads. seriously. I buy one box of 50, lasts me 2-3yrs. Please, you can afford your gun, gas to drive around, you can afford a box of factory ammo. PLUS, the best bullets & powders are NOT available for handloading. Not that I really care, but again, why?:dunno:

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 13:53
Cost is the most ridiculois reason to carryyour own handloads. seriously. I buy one box of 50, lasts me 2-3yrs. Please, you can afford your gun, gas to drive around, you can afford a box of factory ammo. PLUS, the best bullets & powders are NOT available for handloading. Not that I really care, but again, why?:dunno:Fred, I'm not providing a reason for carrying handloads. I'm giving a possible response to the attorney's question. It gives the jury an alternative to thinking I'm bloodthirsty, and it's at least as good as the "I don't know enough to make my own decisions so I just do what the cops do" response you suggested. ;)

ETA: Gold Dots certainly ARE available for handloading...

hoffy
04-13-2011, 14:14
Well it always breaks down this way. I will go with Mas, and leave it at that. To work up a load though, you should use at least 3 powders, more if you have a buddy that reloads. Also you have to consider barrel length. I have had good luck in 9mm warmish loads using power pistol, AA# 7 & 9, HS-6 things like that. load 20 round lots and shoot off of bags. The job is more difficult if you do not have a chrono, but look for pressure signs and keep detailed notes, and if you work up a maximum load for one gun, it very well may not be safe in another. I have worked up many loads for my handgun hunter friends, and long ago decided to leave a margin for pressure after shells were sticking in another revolver, and concentrated on accuracy, in case they ran the ammo in another gun. If there are Katrina riots, I will use what I have on hand, like 338 said, my carry loads usually last me at least two years because I carry 45 acp, 40 s&w, 357 sig, 10mm auto, so one batch of shells is not getting carried all the time. Lot numbers, give me a break, I can find out in 5 minutes. Factory ammo has come a long way in the 35 years I have been shooting, when I started reloading it was pretty easy to beat factory ammo, now, not so easy, though after the panic I have seen a decline in quality control in blasting ammo, have not bought hardly any SD ammo lately as I have a bunch from before, stored cool and dry.(the SD ammo I replace the most is what I carry on my motorcycle in the summer, I wear body armor and it is hot and I am sweaty, and I practically live on the bike, my main transport) BTW, I have seen some nasty wounds in deer from Barnes X bullets, shot from 44s I have loaded.

Boxerglocker
04-13-2011, 14:42
Just found this interesting :dunno:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reference-how-forum/81488-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court.html

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 15:18
Just found this interesting :dunno:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reference-how-forum/81488-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court.html. I agree that at least three people have gotten into trouble in court from using handloads.

Boxerglocker
04-13-2011, 15:42
I agree that at least three people have gotten into trouble in court from using handloads.

Then you'll also have to agree that the civil court arguement is a reality... give you the criminal arguement, you won the case it was a justified shoot, though in that case the issue will also be fought.

As many have stated, it's the fact that your lawyers clock is ticking and the $$$ signs are rolling over argueing what would have been only a justified defense using factory SD loads.

People are free to do as they like, carry what they want. However IMHO it's plain ignorant to think that it can't happen, the reality is it will most likely come up if any of us are placed in the situation.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 16:02
Then you'll also have to agree that the civil court arguement is a reality... give you the criminal arguement, you won the case it was a justified shoot, though in that case the issue will also be fought.

As many have stated, it's the fact that your lawyers clock is ticking and the $$$ signs are rolling over argueing what would have been only a justified defense using factory SD loads.

People are free to do as they like, carry what they want. However IMHO it's plain ignorant to think that it can't happen, the reality is it will most likely come up if any of us are placed in the situation.I don't think anyone has said it can't happen. I just think that if you're getting sued for a shooting handloads will be a relatively small factor. You're getting soaked irregardless.

Also, a lot of you guys who say people are free to carry whatever they want seem to spend a lot of time and energy proving that everyone should carry factory (NTTAWWT ;))

dudel
04-13-2011, 17:11
Now, Dudel, don't take this the wrong way. I've followed your posts for years and know you're a conscientious reloader. But how in the heck do you know what "most of the experienced reloaders in this forum" carry? Or even what they buy, for that matter? My bet is that most of the experienced reloaders in this forum have never even posted on this furball subject.

Sorry, I count the experienced reloaders on this list on two hands. Most of them have indicated their choice at one time or another, just as Fred did on this thread. This is not the first time this topic has come up here.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 17:15
Sorry, I count the experienced reloaders on this list on two hands. Most of them have indicated their choice at one time or another, just as Fred did on this thread. This is not the first time this topic has come up here.Oh, OK. Some arbitrary subset of members that you have picked. That's cool. ;)

dudel
04-13-2011, 17:15
Mas can't cite specifics and requires his audience to accept his authority on its own. That's hard to get people to do on the webz. You can't really blame people for not accepting an example when they can't read the case.

There you go! Thanks for playing. Courts, lawyers, publishers and magazines accept his bonafides as an expert on the topic, I believe I can do the same.

However, in the interest of fairness, let's have yours for comparison.

In the threads I've followed, the case reference had been provided. People get their panties in a twist when he won't spoon feed them or when his opinion doesn't reinforce theirs.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 17:21
There you go! Thanks for playing. Courts, lawyers, publishers and magazines accept his bonafides as an expert on the topic, I believe I can do the same. Absolutely your right to do so and I applaud you exercising that right.

However, in the interest of fairness, let's have yours for comparison.My what?

In the threads I've followed, the case reference had been provided. People get their panties in a twist when he won't spoon feed them or when his opinion doesn't reinforce theirs. That's the first time I've seen it, but to be fair, two cases...

dudel
04-13-2011, 17:21
Oh, OK. Some arbitrary subset of members that you have picked. That's cool. ;)

Until there's a test, my rules my list :supergrin:


If it makes you feel better, it's not totally arbitrary. If you look at the forum, there are some who consistently answer questions, others who ask questions, and those who bloviate. The group that consistently answers questions is a much smaller list.

I suspect that many on the forum would problably agree with a good percentage of my list.

dudel
04-13-2011, 17:23
My what?


Ok. Now you're just being silly.

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 17:25
Until there's a test, my rules my list :supergrin:


If it makes you feel better, it's not totally arbitrary. It doesn't bother me either way. I just prefer to have such lists in the open rather than presented as objective truth.

k. Now you're just being silly. No, really.

Boxerglocker
04-13-2011, 17:37
Also, a lot of you guys who say people are free to carry whatever they want seem to spend a lot of time and energy proving that everyone should carry factory (NTTAWWT ;))

That opinion is only based on the fact that many on these forums want to warrant the fact that they are not subject to the laws of the land, and that it will never happen to them. Those individuals tend to bait the thread to death them later complain cause they don't like the reality of the answers given in response. NTTAWWT :whistling:

Neal
04-13-2011, 19:31
Agreed. I have to admit, my SHTF ammo supply is quite small compared to some. I figure I can't carry a lot if I have to bug out. If I am barracading in my house, then I can crank out ammo @ 400rds/hr+.:supergrin:
Also, as to working up SHTF loads, best to do your load developemnt w/ at least two diff powders & bullets. If things get skinny, better to have options. Get into casting your own LHP & you can even beat a bullet shortage. I can always get ww, all I need is a screwdriver & pliers.:rofl:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

Fred, please tell me about that 136 gr HP .356 bullet. Was it a group buy?

gwalchmai
04-13-2011, 19:45
That opinion is only based on the fact that many on these forums want to warrant the fact that they are not subject to the laws of the land, and that it will never happen to them. "not subject to the laws of the land"? What's that about? I haven't seen anyone promoting anything illegal in these threads. Unless you mean that carrying handloads is illegal. That's not illegal, is it?

Those individuals tend to bait the thread to death them later complain cause they don't like the reality of the answers given in response. NTTAWWT :whistling:Answers is just answers. Anyone is free to accept or reject any advice given, as they should.

Boxerglocker
04-13-2011, 20:12
"not subject to the laws of the land"? What's that about? I haven't seen anyone promoting anything illegal in these threads. Unless you mean that carrying handloads is illegal. That's not illegal, is it?


What I'm saying is in this country everyone has rights, unfortunately even the criminals. Any person involved in a hypothetical situation as we have been discussing regarding using "killer reloads" in a shooting can be accused of wrong doing in such cases. Our laws allow for this, and a good or even mediocre attorney will take advantage of the facts and try to use them against you to get his/her client either off or score a settlement.

fredj338
04-13-2011, 20:14
Fred, please tell me about that 136 gr HP .356 bullet. Was it a group buy?

No Neal, it's a RCBS 147gr w/ one cav HP by Erik @ HPMS. I have the quad pin & a cup point. The cup point is more accurate, but the quad HP expnads so nicely form 950fps-1200fps, about as fast as I run them.

Neal
04-13-2011, 20:23
No Neal, it's a RCBS 147gr w/ one cav HP by Erik @ HPMS. I have the quad pin & a cup point. The cup point is more accurate, but the quad HP expnads so nicely form 950fps-1200fps, about as fast as I run them.

OK, thanks. Are you runnin those in 9mm or the SIG cartridge?

fredj338
04-13-2011, 20:24
OK, thanks. Are you runnin those in 9mm or the SIG cartridge?

Both. I can get 1000fps in the 9mm easily & don;t go over 1200fps or so in 357sig.

gwalchmai
04-14-2011, 04:46
What I'm saying is in this country everyone has rights, unfortunately even the criminals. Any person involved in a hypothetical situation as we have been discussing regarding using "killer reloads" in a shooting can be accused of wrong doing in such cases. Our laws allow for this, and a good or even mediocre attorney will take advantage of the facts and try to use them against you to get his/her client either off or score a settlement.I'm not following you. "Accused of wrong doing"? What does that mean? Assuming two cases identical other than Guy A carrying factory loads and Guy B carrying handloads, what could Guy B be accused of that Guy A could not? And accused by who?

kcbrown
04-14-2011, 13:33
The only justification for carrying handloads that I can think of that might fly in court is that you believe you should practice with what you carry, and that would indeed be too expensive if you're to carry factory SD rounds.

But even that probably wouldn't be terribly persuasive, since it will be argued that if you can perform well with one kind of round (e.g., handloads), you'll be able to perform well with another kind of round (factory SD rounds), and tons of evidence will be brought forth showing that to be the case.

Neal
04-14-2011, 16:12
Back in the 80's I worked for a county sheriff's department. Small to medium size department, about 31 full time deputies at that time. For a while the sheriff carried handloads (357 Mag) in his loop loader on his duty belt. I know, because I loaded them for him. Things are different now, but if a shoot is good, it's good with any kind of ammo. With the price of premium factory ammo going through the roof, I don't doubt I'll be carrying my own handloads for CCW in the future.

Guss
04-24-2011, 14:57
For bullets, I use XTP and Gold Dot. Firing into wet newspaper, I get good, consistent, expansion with each. In a pinch (shortage), I could use Montana Gold or Zero JHP, but I tend to get jacket separation on those.

My powders are VV N310 for short-barrel pistols and Universal for longer barreled pistols. Both are relatively clean and low-flash.

My loads are somewhere between the medium and high end of the recommended range, and end up with speeds slightly above ordinary target ammo. This is tied to my only concern regarding legalities, and that is protecting innocents from over-penetration. (I'll make another entry on the legal B.S.)

Brass for carry is new Starline or carefully inspected and measured used brass.

I like to practice with the same stuff I carry, and that would not be possible with the expensive commercial stuff.

Further, I like making my own for the same reason that parachutists like to pack their own chutes. I recently bought some of the expensive Federal Hydra-Shok to test, and found it had trouble fitting into my case gage. If you use commercial ammo, you usually have no idea what powder or primer they are using. Some switch formulas depending on what is cheap at the moment. Commercial ammo is what I use for cheap break-in. Serious stuff I like to tend to myself.

Guss
04-24-2011, 15:12
Interesting, any specific reason why you would choose a 147 gr over 124gr?
I have heard that if you don't have a tight twist rate, the heavier bullets are not as accurate over a distance. Perhaps someone has some test experience with this.

Jager1
04-26-2011, 00:40
Where it really hurts you in in the civil trial, again in the pocket book

And is so statistically insignificant as to truly not be of any concern.

Guss
04-26-2011, 03:27
And is so statistically insignificant as to truly not be of any concern.
Yep. The only cases they can find are barely relevant.

If you do get hit with a civil suit, it doesn't matter what you did, the opposing lawyer isn't going to give you a break. If you used solid points, he'll say you wanted to pierce the "victim". If you used hollow points, he'll say you wanted to shred the man. If you use 9mm, he'll point out that it's the military choice for war. Etc, etc, etc. Hopefully, your jury will sort through the B.S. and will remember that guns don't have a "set-to-stun" setting. You'll still get stuck with a big legal bill no matter what bullet you used.

fredj338
04-26-2011, 08:36
I agree that at least three people have gotten into trouble in court from using handloads.

Well, that would mean there is a court precident now. Even more of a reason to go factory. I am stll waiting on some one to tell me the benefit, other than cost, of using a handload for SD when sutiable factory ammo is available.:dunno:

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 08:48
I'm not following you. "Accused of wrong doing"? What does that mean? Assuming two cases identical other than Guy A carrying factory loads and Guy B carrying handloads, what could Guy B be accused of that Guy A could not? And accused by who?

I mean is even if your in the right. Some lawyer working against you will always use whatever means/claus possible to prove that your not. If you chose to carry reloads and in a civil trial have to pay someone to defend you, even if you won the criminal case and had a justified shoot it's your choice.

It just amazes me how many people actually believe that it won't / couldn't happen to them. If you have access to a lawyer, I do.... happens to own a shooting range facility here in the PNW affiliated with a well know firearms training academy. Ask him what route he would take if in such a case working against you.

Like this gentleman summarized very simply:

Yep. The only cases they can find are barely relevant....

You'll still get stuck with a big legal bill no matter what bullet you used.

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 09:32
Well, that would mean there is a court precident now. Even more of a reason to go factory. I am stll waiting on some one to tell me the benefit, other than cost, of using a handload for SD when sutiable factory ammo is available.:dunno:If one wants to use court precedent as a reason not to carry handloads one should not carry a gun at all, since people have no doubt been sued when carrying factory.

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 09:34
I mean is even if your in the right. Some lawyer working against you will always use whatever means/claus possible to prove that your not. If you chose to carry reloads and in a civil trial have to pay someone to defend you, even if you won the criminal case and had a justified shoot it's your choice.

It just amazes me how many people actually believe that it won't / couldn't happen to them. If you have access to a lawyer, I do.... happens to own a shooting range facility here in the PNW affiliated with a well know firearms training academy. Ask him what route he would take if in such a case working against you.I think that's what I've said before.

fredj338
04-26-2011, 13:08
If one wants to use court precedent as a reason not to carry handloads one should not carry a gun at all, since people have no doubt been sued when carrying factory.

That's fine, no one has really made an argument for using handloads vs factory other than price, which is a ridiculous reason.:dunno:

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 13:15
That's fine, no one has really made an argument for using handloads vs factory other than price, which is a ridiculous reason.:dunno:Well, I don't think that's entirely true, Fred. Maybe not in this thread, but if you've been following this discussion for years, and I think you have, you've seen several posts by guys who carry their handloads because they have more faith in them than they do in factory. Agree with that theory or not, it exists.

I wonder if Elmer and Skeeter carried their own handloads.... ;)

unclebob
04-26-2011, 13:46
I wonder if Elmer and Skeeter carried their own handloads.... ;)
That was a whole different time.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 14:08
I think that's what I've said before.

To my recollection you've argued that you have the choice and if you chose to carry SD handloads nothing possible could ever come of it. I think it's proven at that point is not necessarily true and where it will ultimately hurt you in such cases is in the wallet.

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 14:15
To my recollection you've argued that you have the choice and if you chose to carry SD handloads nothing possible could ever come of it. I think it's proven at that point is not necessarily true and where it will ultimately hurt you in such cases is in the wallet.I think it's "proven" that in two or three cases the choice had an impact on the trial. In many more cases a radio influenced a car accident, yet I still play mine sometimes when I drive.

As so often happens on the webz, we're considering two extremes here - you think I'm saying that handloads will never be an issue, some people may think you're saying they will be an overwhelming issue in every case. The "truth" lies in the middle.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 14:30
I think it's "proven" that in two or three cases the choice had an impact on the trial. In many more cases a radio influenced a car accident, yet I still play mine sometimes when I drive.

As so often happens on the webz, we're considering two extremes here - you think I'm saying that handloads will never be an issue, some people may think you're saying they will be an overwhelming issue in every case. The "truth" lies in the middle.

I agree the truth is in the middle. However, please respect mine and others views that if SD reloads were out of the equation altogether and you carried factory, particularly in a post criminal civil trial. There would be no extending need for debate.

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 15:29
I agree the truth is in the middle. However, please respect mine and others views that if SD reloads were out of the equation altogether and you carried factory, particularly in a post criminal civil trial. There would be no extending need for debate.I'll assume that you meant that last period to be a comma. But no, I don't think that if SD reloads were out of the equation altogether in a "post criminal civil trial" there would be no "extending need for debate". We've all pretty much agreed that if that plaintiff's attorney doesn't try to nail you for handloads he'll try to nail you for whatever else you use.

As to your other point, I absolutely respect your views in terms of your right to choose whatever you want to carry, for whatever reason your choose. My disagreement comes in when you try to tell others what they should or should not carry. :wavey:

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 15:36
My disagreement comes in when you try to tell others what they should or should not carry. :wavey:

Fair enough, maybe I should be a little more careful in regards to expressing my view. Stating more along the lines of, it's your choice... however, I don't because... :dunno:

gwalchmai
04-26-2011, 15:55
Fair enough, maybe I should be a little more careful in regards to expressing my view. Stating more along the lines of, it's your choice... however, I don't because... :dunno:I know. That's one of the beauties of the interwebz - it's hard to allow other people to do stupid stuff. :supergrin:

Jager1
05-10-2011, 23:30
Yep. The only cases they can find are barely relevant.

Yep. And will likely continue to be.