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Tarkio
04-22-2011, 11:26
Looking for some guidance in selecting a church.

We are going to start taking our children to church. Problem is neither my wife nor I are deeply religious and are not well-informed either.

My wife was raised in a Presbyterian church and I attended a Christian Church.

We live in a rural area and our church selections are limited. We are looking for a simple church that is not overly evangelical (does not suit our personalities). Just looking for a decent quiet church to get our kids in to begin learning more about Christianity.

Here are the options we have locally:
Bethlehem Congregational
Evangelical Lutheran
Methodist Church
Open Bible Church
Baptist Church

I know about some of these options and have tentatively excluded them but will refrain so that I might hear what others have to say.

steveksux
04-22-2011, 11:41
Looking for some guidance in selecting a church.

We are going to start taking our children to church. Problem is neither my wife nor I are deeply religious and are not well-informed either.

My wife was raised in a Presbyterian church and I attended a Christian Church.Isn't Presbyterian considered Christian? :tongueout: :supergrin:

I'd suggest going there, see if you like them. If you've already ruled them out, try ranking them with the reasons, see if there's some ruled out on major fundamental reasons, and some ruled out on minor issues. No reason not to give them another chance. There's so many denominations out there, no way you're going to find another church that matches the one you were brought up in. Its probably changed in the meantime, it might not match anymore either....

Randy

ArtificialGrape
04-22-2011, 12:47
Looking for some guidance in selecting a church.

We are going to start taking our children to church. Problem is neither my wife nor I are deeply religious and are not well-informed either.

My wife was raised in a Presbyterian church and I attended a Christian Church.

We live in a rural area and our church selections are limited. We are looking for a simple church that is not overly evangelical (does not suit our personalities). Just looking for a decent quiet church to get our kids in to begin learning more about Christianity.

Here are the options we have locally:
Bethlehem Congregational
Evangelical Lutheran
Methodist Church
Open Bible Church
Baptist Church

I know about some of these options and have tentatively excluded them but will refrain so that I might hear what others have to say.

A quick google of "comparison christian denominations" turned up this site with a chart comparing 7 large denominations across a number of doctrine.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm

Since you're new to the RI I will play nice for now beyond saying that I believe them to all be equally true. :cool:

-ArtificialGrape

nmstew
04-22-2011, 12:49
Looking for some guidance in selecting a church.

We are going to start taking our children to church. Problem is neither my wife nor I are deeply religious and are not well-informed either.


I'm curious. If neither of you are religious, why start taking your children to church?

MadMonkey
04-22-2011, 12:51
I'd recommend Baptist, personally.

Tarkio
04-22-2011, 13:45
Isn't Presbyterian considered Christian? :tongueout: :supergrin:

Yes. When I said Christian, I was referring to First Christian Church which is of the denomination of Disciples of Christ or Church of Christ.

Smart aleck. I mean that in a nice smart aleck way myself.

Tarkio
04-22-2011, 13:51
I'm curious. If neither of you are religious, why start taking your children to church?

We are not deeply religious people. We do believe but have not actively participated in a structured religion since our adolescence.

Why are we taking our children? I believe it is/can be a very positive force in a child's life and development. Growing up, I believe I gained quite a bit from attending church and meeting others at church.

achysklic
04-22-2011, 14:13
It's totally up to you as the parents. I would recommed that you decide whether you want your children to be taught from the bible, or from tradition. I mean I would get a statement of beliefs from each church and see what they teach. If it is not in harmony with what the bible teaches don't expose your children to it.

ArtificialGrape
04-22-2011, 14:59
We are not deeply religious people. We do believe but have not actively participated in a structured religion since our adolescence.

Why are we taking our children? I believe it is/can be a very positive force in a child's life and development. Growing up, I believe I gained quite a bit from attending church and meeting others at church.
After my earlier post I had some lunch, and I'm feeling a little more myself now :supergrin:

I would argue that as parents you are already equipped to be the positive force needed in your children's lives. You can teach them the values that you would like to see (respect, altruism, striving to decrease pain/suffering and increase happiness in others, etc.). Along with that, an understanding of critical thinking should be taught.

There does not have to be a notion of sin and fear of Hell for children to grow up well well-behaved, moral, etc. The threat of Santa withholding gifts is not required to have "good" kids, nor is the belief that their every action and thought is being monitored, and somebody had to die on a cross for their sins.

-ArtificialGrape

steveksux
04-22-2011, 15:29
Yes. When I said Christian, I was referring to First Christian Church which is of the denomination of Disciples of Christ or Church of Christ.

Smart aleck. I mean that in a nice smart aleck way myself.:supergrin: I figured, just the way you put it was barely ambiguous and could be taken the wrong way if you were a fan of Leslie Neilson in "Airplane!" as I am... :rofl:

How old are the kids? I'm thinking you have some time to decide before they're irreparably damaged.. ;)

Randy

packsaddle
04-22-2011, 15:32
find a church that teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

everything else will fall into place.

AlexHassin
04-22-2011, 16:02
How about instead work on there critical thinking skills and someday they will make the choice themselves.

IndyGunFreak
04-22-2011, 17:02
find a church that teaches salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

everything else will fall into place.

:agree:

RichardB
04-22-2011, 18:29
Small rural churches can be difficult to evaluate as the personality of the congregations as much as the church doctrines affect the atmosphere.

If evangelizing is not your cup of tea, you will need to be cautious when looking at Baptist churches.

The Evangelical Lutheran church might work for your family. They have a program to teach the kids to include training for confirmation. They are somewhat tolerant, not the most condemning of the Lutheran groups. If there were an Episcopal parish close by, try it they generally function as a "hospital for sinners", not a "museum for saints".

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2011, 18:56
I would recommend going to a church that teaches from the bible and is the basis of its doctrine, if you are seeking a solid root for your children. Popular religion isn't necessarily good religion. If there is no biblical foundation, and all it is is a social club, it will provide no lasting value for your children.

Most of all pray about it honestly. God will lead.

steveksux
04-23-2011, 10:51
If you can't find a church that you like.... homeschool them. If people can do that for regular schoolwork, no reason you can't do the same.

Randy

BradD
04-23-2011, 11:24
...We live in a rural area and our church selections are limited. We are looking for a simple church that is not overly evangelical (does not suit our personalities). Just looking for a decent quiet church to get our kids in to begin learning more about Christianity. ...
You should not have "being evangelical" in your personalities because, from your description, you're perhaps not born-again Christians. (Edit: I saw your later post in which you said you do believe. Sorry. Perhaps "out of fellowship" then LOL) If you are converted (edit: or come back to being in fellowship), then you'd become evangelical per the Great Commission at the end of Matthew. That doesn't mean you'd go door-to-door, but perhaps you would contribute to the missions fund at your church and help pay for the missionaries.

I'd recommend baptist. The more I read the Bible and study, the more I think they have it closest to correct.

I know you said you're looking for a small and simple church, but I'd recommend to be more open minded to the bigger ones. I grew up going to a small pentecostal church back in the mountains, but now our family goes to about a 5000 member baptist church. It's amazing how much more active the larger church is, undoubtedly because we have a lot bigger pool of resources. We have missionaries in multiple parts of the world, pastors and deacons visiting large numbers of people in hospitals, etc., charity drives, preschool, special needs elementary and high school, fellowship through sports programs, you name it. Back home, our church had very little in the way of resources, so the pastor had to have another job, there was no missionary program, etc. etc. Basically, the church existed for its members. I don't think that's how it's supposed to be.

Vic Hays
04-23-2011, 15:49
I was raised as a nominal Presbyterian also. I desired more than I found there although I am sure that there are precious souls there. I found what I was seeking.

Some things to think and pray about:

1. Jesus is the head of the Church. Does your Church recognize this?

2. What is the standard of authority? The Bible should be the standard of faith and practice for Christians. There are some churches that do not think that the Bible has this authority. This is dangerous because they then base the authority of their church on man made philosophies.

3. You believe in God. Ask Him to lead you.

4. Jesus said it. John 13:34 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

hannielonline
04-23-2011, 16:11
Are you both believers? Have you been born again?

alba666
04-23-2011, 16:22
I would start with the Evangelical Lutheran and the Methodist. But every congregation is different. Especially in small congregations, the tenor will be driven by the nature of the congregation. Like-minded people will tend to band together. Listen, observe, and pray. God wants you to find a group of people through which you can do His work

hannielonline
04-23-2011, 16:52
I would start with the Evangelical Lutheran and the Methodist. But every congregation is different. Especially in small congregations, the tenor will be driven by the nature of the congregation. Like-minded people will tend to band together. Listen, observe, and pray. God wants you to find a group of people through which you can do His work


I disagree, God would rather you seek His direction and allow Him to lead you to a fellowship where you can grow as a disciple, until then I would suggest you stay put and more than anything identify whether or not you are born again or not other wise He is wanting you to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

Foxterriermom
04-24-2011, 09:48
Just looking for a decent quiet church to get our kids in to begin learning more about Christianity.

In my experience, learning about Christianity has to be more than going to church. If your kids are not getting the reinforcement at home, church will only give them head knowledge as well as a skewed vision of what it means to be a Christian.

My parents were better teachers to me than anything. Their attitudes and actions on a daily basis were reinforced by what I learned in church as they not only talked the talk but walked the walk 24/7. They weren't just "Sunday Christians" but strove to implement the teachings and commandments of our Lord and Savior in every aspect of their lives.

BTW, what are the ages of your children?

Norske
04-24-2011, 13:44
Why join any church?

Religions exist merely to continue their own existence and provide an easy living for the "Holy Men" within them.

They demand your material support in this life.

The "product" you are buying from them is the promise of a "better life" after you die.

Of course, if after you die you find out that what was promised was not what was delivered, you are in no position to get a refund, or even warn your still-living children not to buy the Kool-Aid.

Teach your children the morality they need to live by. Don't turn it over to some ignorant shaman to do it for you.

TKM
04-24-2011, 20:08
Why do that to defenseless children?

kalifornia
04-24-2011, 20:23
wherever you end up going- be smart and git yourself a copy of the heidleberg catechism and use that with the ankle biters

AlexHassin
04-24-2011, 20:40
Are you both believers? Have you been born again?

Most people try to only be born once. well unless you believe in reincarnation but that’s generally not in the realm of Christianity.
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Tarkio
04-25-2011, 15:47
Interesting reading the responses.

I probably didn't do a decent job of explaining what I was looking for in my original post. Because of that, I can understand some of the responses already provided.

My original post was to try and pick members' brains about the local churches I listed and help me reconcile which of these churches might best fit what I was looking for: something similar to a Church of Christ.

I see that jumping to conclusions and willingness to judge people is not restricted to GNG. I love the comment instructing me to teach critical thinking to my children as though the poster assumes I do not do so or am incapable of doing so without the posters divine intervention.

As to the comment criticizing my reference to being not "too overly evangelical". My comment referred more to the type of services I have attended where there are elaborate church services complete with props, PowerPoint slides, entertainment etc. Perhaps I used the wrong term.

We did try out a local church and it seems to fit our expectations and our comfort level. It is associated with the Church of Christ and I appreciate the approach to the sermon.

forgottencoast
04-25-2011, 16:48
[QUOTE=ArtificialGrape;17252859]After my earlier post I had some lunch, and I'm feeling a little more myself now :supergrin:

I would argue that as parents you are already equipped to be the positive force needed in your children's lives. You can teach them the values that you would like to see (respect, altruism, striving to decrease pain/suffering and increase happiness in others, etc.). Along with that, an understanding of critical thinking should be taught.

There does not have to be a notion of sin and fear of Hell for children to grow up well well-behaved, moral, etc. The threat of Santa withholding gifts is not required to have "good" kids, nor is the belief that their every action and thought is being monitored, and somebody had to die on a cross for their sins.

Good points but some of us choose to teach our kids about Jesus, his death on a cross and his resurrection because we believe it to be true not as a crutch or fear tactic. Misuse of the truth by parents, preachers and everyone in between doesn't negate the truth. We have taught our kids this from birth, they have watched Him work in our life and have made their own decisions about following Him too.

But you are correct, there are some really good kids and parents who are not Christians.

hannielonline
04-25-2011, 16:57
Most people try to only be born once. well unless you believe in reincarnation but that’s generally not in the realm of Christianity.
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No sir, you are mistaken but I won't try to convince you

AlexHassin
04-25-2011, 19:35
No sir, you are mistaken but I won't try to convince you

From what I understand in modern sense it is an adult baptism. Still find it funny that a reincarnation idea is seen as a tenet in some Christian belief system. Also there probably is a group of Christians out there that believe in reincarnation, thought certainly a orthodox view.

Tilley
04-25-2011, 22:02
There is no Catholic church nearby?

Tilley
04-25-2011, 22:12
:drowning: Alex H.
:drowning: Forgotten
:drowning: TKM
:drowning: Norske
:drowning: Grape

Matthew 18:6 (NIV):
If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

ArtificialGrape
04-25-2011, 22:33
:drowning: Alex H.
:drowning: Forgotten
:drowning: TKM
:drowning: Norske
:drowning: Grape

Matthew 18:6 (NIV):
If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Yeah, but just over a dozen verses later Jesus is promising that "anything" asked for in prayer by two people will be answered by Dad, so I'm not sure how much credence we can put in this chapter.

Besides, I'm a pretty good swimmer, though I suppose it's possible that it's because I'm a witch.
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l591/ArtificialGrape/smiley/witch-flying.gif

Tilley
04-25-2011, 23:12
Yeah, but just over a dozen verses later Jesus is promising that "anything" asked for in prayer by two people will be answered by Dad, so I'm not sure how much credence we can put in this chapter.

Besides, I'm a pretty good swimmer, though I suppose it's possible that it's because I'm a witch.
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l591/ArtificialGrape/smiley/witch-flying.gif

James 4:2-3 (NIV):

You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.


My brother Grape, I know you have a sense of humor, and so do I. My humor often gets out of hand and I know I took things too far. It's at those times I remember this passage:

Matthew 12:36-37 (New Living Translation):

And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.

I certainly hope for our sakes that God has a sense of humor as well...:whistling:

hannielonline
04-26-2011, 06:17
From what I understand in modern sense it is an adult baptism. Still find it funny that a reincarnation idea is seen as a tenet in some Christian belief system. Also there probably is a group of Christians out there that believe in reincarnation, thought certainly a orthodox view.

Wasn't speaking of reincarnation and there is only one Body of Christ or Church you are either apart of IT or not. All these sects, cults and denominations are divisions that don't exist in scripture.

AlexHassin
04-26-2011, 08:06
:drowning: Alex H.
:drowning: Forgotten
:drowning: TKM
:drowning: Norske
:drowning: Grape

Matthew 18:6 (NIV):
If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Might I suggest the Harlem River instead? We would have lots of company down there.

AlexHassin
04-26-2011, 08:10
Wasn't speaking of reincarnation and there is only one Body of Christ or Church you are either apart of IT or not. All these sects, cults and denominations are divisions that don't exist in scripture.

Yet whatever your or mine opinion on them they exist under the larger banner of Christianity and are most likely as shore as you that they are the proper practices of faith. Still funny to hear Christians speak of being born again, for me. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

biblefreak
04-26-2011, 08:46
[QUOTE=ArtificialGrape;17252859]After my earlier post I had some lunch, and I'm feeling a little more myself now :supergrin:

I would argue that as parents you are already equipped to be the positive force needed in your children's lives. You can teach them the values that you would like to see (respect, altruism, striving to decrease pain/suffering and increase happiness in others, etc.). Along with that, an understanding of critical thinking should be taught.

There does not have to be a notion of sin and fear of Hell for children to grow up well well-behaved, moral, etc. The threat of Santa withholding gifts is not required to have "good" kids, nor is the belief that their every action and thought is being monitored, and somebody had to die on a cross for their sins.

Good points but some of us choose to teach our kids about Jesus, his death on a cross and his resurrection because we believe it to be true not as a crutch or fear tactic. Misuse of the truth by parents, preachers and everyone in between doesn't negate the truth. We have taught our kids this from birth, they have watched Him work in our life and have made their own decisions about following Him too.

But you are correct, there are some really good kids and parents who are not Christians.

^ This. And we believe it to be true for very good reason, not because some "holy man" in the local church has indoctrinated us to believe in a fairy tale to maintain his standard of living, but because the evidence for the event is overwhelming! I have raised my kids to question all things and not to believe in something without doing the leg work yourself and making it your own. They are home-schooled, critical thinkers in all areas of life, strong Christians who know what they believe and why they believe, and it didn't take trying to scare them about hell and damnation (though a reality) to recognize the evidence for the hope we have.

Find a church that teaches from the Scriptures from a literal stand point and you and your family will be blessed!

ArtificialGrape
04-26-2011, 09:00
cleaned up the broken QUOTEs to clarify who said what...

I would argue that as parents you are already equipped to be the positive force needed in your children's lives. You can teach them the values that you would like to see (respect, altruism, striving to decrease pain/suffering and increase happiness in others, etc.). Along with that, an understanding of critical thinking should be taught.

There does not have to be a notion of sin and fear of Hell for children to grow up well well-behaved, moral, etc. The threat of Santa withholding gifts is not required to have "good" kids, nor is the belief that their every action and thought is being monitored, and somebody had to die on a cross for their sins.

-ArtificialGrape

Good points but some of us choose to teach our kids about Jesus, his death on a cross and his resurrection because we believe it to be true not as a crutch or fear tactic. Misuse of the truth by parents, preachers and everyone in between doesn't negate the truth. We have taught our kids this from birth, they have watched Him work in our life and have made their own decisions about following Him too.

But you are correct, there are some really good kids and parents who are not Christians.

^ This. And we believe it to be true for very good reason, not because some "holy man" in the local church has indoctrinated us to believe in a fairy tale to maintain his standard of living, but because the evidence for the event is overwhelming! I have raised my kids to question all things and not to believe in something without doing the leg work yourself and making it your own. They are home-schooled, critical thinkers in all areas of life, strong Christians who know what they believe and why they believe, and it didn't take trying to scare them about hell and damnation (though a reality) to recognize the evidence for the hope we have.

Find a church that teaches from the Scriptures from a literal stand point and you and your family will be blessed!

BradD
04-26-2011, 09:34
Alex, we didn't invent the term. See John Ch. 3.

LOL, it seems that some people in those days thought it was a weird term also.

ArtificialGrape
04-26-2011, 12:24
Alex, we didn't invent the term. See John Ch. 3.

LOL, it seems that some people in those days thought it was a weird term also.
Certainly there is confusion around if the Greek meant "born again", "born from above" or some other subtle variation.

The modern interpretation of "born again" did not arise for around 15 centuries after Christ. Many modern day born-again Christians appear to use "born-again" as an elitism distinction suggesting that they are more Christianer (cool word, huh?) than Christians that were only born once.

I don't believe that as high an emphasis is placed on born-again outside of the United States.

BradD
04-26-2011, 14:33
Call me a simple man, but John 3:3-3:7 seems pretty clear to me: There's no such thing as a Christian who was not born again.

A person who claims to be a christian who hasn't been born again (converted) is simply a non-christian. It's not that they're less christianer, although that is a cool word LOL.

ArtificialGrape
04-26-2011, 14:58
Call me a simple man, but John 3:3-3:7 seems pretty clear to me: There's no such thing as a Christian who was not born again.

A person who claims to be a christian who hasn't been born again (converted) is simply a non-christian. It's not that they're less christianer, although that is a cool word LOL.

So is a water baptism (possibly even as a young child) adequate, or must it be born-again in the more evangelical sense of a singular moment of recognizing sin, asking forgiveness, and accepting the Holy Spirit? I think that's where the lack of consensus seems to be.

BradD
04-26-2011, 16:26
The latter seems right by everything I have heard and read, although I don't know if every person can identify the exact moment in time.

I don't see how it can be concluded that water baptism is required for salvation. If that was the case, then the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved...but he was. Like I typed before: I am a simple man. LOL

Norske
04-26-2011, 17:11
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 19:17
I don't see how it can be concluded that water baptism is required for salvation.

"...baptism doth also now save us..." - 1 Peter 3:21

If water baptism is not required for salvation then Peter was wrong.

If that was the case, then the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved...but he was. Like I typed before: I am a simple man. LOL

The thief died under the Mosaic Covenant in which water baptism was not required. Besides, how can one prove that he was not baptized?

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 19:20
Yeah, but just over a dozen verses later Jesus is promising that "anything" asked for in prayer by two people will be answered by Dad, so I'm not sure how much credence we can put in this chapter.

One of the most important rules of reading comprehension: context, context, context.

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 19:22
So is a water baptism (possibly even as a young child) adequate, or must it be born-again in the more evangelical sense of a singular moment of recognizing sin, asking forgiveness, and accepting the Holy Spirit? I think that's where the lack of consensus seems to be.

One cannot be born again without being baptized (John 3:3-5).

One cannot be a Christian without being born again.

born again = Christian

Tilley
04-26-2011, 19:43
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

1 Corinthians 1:18-19 (New Living Translation)

The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”


Some of us already know, so there is no more need for questioning.
There sure are a lot of atheists here...a lot of questioning.

BradD
04-26-2011, 19:46
"...baptism doth also now save us..." - 1 Peter 3:21

If water baptism is not required for salvation then Peter was wrong.

My Bible's editor included 2.5 pages of analysis explaining why it's incorrect to interpret as you have. I'm obviously not going to type a lot of the explanation here, but I did find one somewhat summarizing statement: "Thus the word 'baptism' in 1st Peter 3:21 cannot mean baptism isolated from faith, but only as an evidence of the exercise of faith which preceded the baptism." The editor refered to Mark 16:16 and beat to death the tense of the verb translated as "has believed."

The thief died under the Mosaic Covenant in which water baptism was not required. Besides, how can one prove that he was not baptized?

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
LOL, that's a very good point. I'll have to think about that one, especially the first part.

As for the question of when the thief was baptized: I'm pretty sure from all that discussion of Mark 16:16 that baptism has to come after faith. I wouldn't sit here and argue very long about it, but I think the thief came to faith while on the cross. See Matthew 27:44 and then Luke 23:39-43. I don't see how he could've been baptized. Perhaps this is moot per your point about the Mosaic Covenant.

Just to get one point clear, the way you interpret the baptism requirement, there's no way for a deathbed conversion, foxhole conversion, whatever, right? There's also the "Do you think God would do that?" question, based on studying how God operates in the Bible. I'm trying to imagine a situation in which a person comes to genuine faith in Jesus and submission to His will. Then on the way to get baptized, he gets hit by a truck and dies. I can't speak for God, but from studying Him best I can, I really can't see Him sending the genuine believer to Hell in that situation. Am I understanding you incorrectly?

Edit: A couple more thoughts. What about the numerous statements in the NT such as Romans 10:13? John 3:16? What about Abraham, as articulated in Romans 4. Yeah, I know, Abraham was pre-NT. His salvation was presumably pre-Mosaic covenant also and it's emphasized that he was saved by faith....period.

I like how I heard it put once: faith+nothing=salvation LOL. I can't remember if McGee, Rogers, or someone else said that, but that's how I read the Bible.

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 20:19
My Bible's editor included 2.5 pages of analysis explaining why it's incorrect to interpret as you have.

I understand that many editors/commentators disagree. But you have to ask yourself at least 2 questions:

1. Did Peter write "baptism saves" or did he write "baptism does not save?"

2. Were Noah and his family saved without the flood waters?

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:20


I'm obviously not going to type a lot of the explanation here, but I did find one somewhat summarizing statement: "Thus the word 'baptism' in 1st Peter 3:21 cannot mean baptism isolated from faith, but only as an evidence of the exercise of faith which preceded the baptism." The editor refered to Mark 16:16 and beat to death the tense of the verb translated as "has believed."

I never said that faith was not required. Obviously, faith must precede baptism as one who does not believe will not choose to be baptized. There are 5 things that are required for salvation:

1. Hear the preaching/teaching (and/or read) the Word (Romans 10:17)
2. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God (John 8:24)
3. Confessing belief in Christ (Romans 10:9-10)
4. Repentance (Acts 17:30)
5. Baptism (Acts 2:38)

Question: if baptism and repentance are not required to be saved, then why did Peter say tell the Pentecostians to repent and be baptized after they believed that Jesus was the Christ and asked him what they had to do to be saved(Acts 2:37-38)?

LOL, that's a very good point. I'll have to think about that one, especially the first part.

As for the question of when the thief was baptized: I'm pretty sure from all that discussion of Mark 16:16 that baptism has to come after faith. I wouldn't sit here and argue very long about it, but I think the thief came to faith while on the cross. See Matthew 27:44 and then Luke 23:39-43. I don't see how he could've been baptized. Perhaps this is moot per your point about the Mosaic Covenant.

Let me know after you have studied and considered.

Just to get one point clear, the way you interpret the baptism requirement, there's no way for a deathbed conversion, foxhole conversion, whatever, right?

Unless the person on the deathbed or in the foxhole believes, repents, confesses, and is baptized, then no, that person will not be saved.

There's also the "Do you think God would do that?" question, based on studying how God operates in the Bible. I'm trying to imagine a situation in which a person comes to genuine faith in Jesus and submission to His will. Then on the way to get baptized, he gets hit by a truck and dies. I can't speak for God, but from studying Him best I can, I really can't see Him sending the genuine believer to Hell in that situation.

Please consider why God said that Moses didn't believe Him (Numbers 20:12). You stated the key to salvation: obedience. Who would argue that Moses didn't believe in the existence of God or that he didn't believe what God said. Yet, God said that he (Moses) didn't believe Him (God) because he (Moses) didn't obey. Moses died before entering the Promised Land (a type of Heaven).

rgregoryb
04-26-2011, 21:53
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Rom 1:17

Hmmm, does not mention baptism, so easy even M Luther figured it out.

How do you respond to John 3:16.....funny baptism not mentioned by Jesus.

rgregoryb
04-26-2011, 21:58
I

Unless the person on the deathbed or in the foxhole believes, repents, confesses, and is baptized, then no, that person will not be saved.





WOW, God appreciate you restricting Him like that?

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 22:02
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Rom 1:17

Hmmm, does not mention baptism, so easy even M Luther figured it out.

How do you respond to John 3:16.....funny baptism not mentioned by Jesus.

Please select the correct answer:

a.) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16

b.) "He that believeth and is not baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

jokeruh
04-26-2011, 22:03
WOW, God appreciate you restricting Him like that?

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
- 1 Peter 4:11

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 08:51
John 3:16,17 ESV
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

emphasis mine, baptism in there anywhere?

when you add to the gospel, it is no longer the gospel.

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 08:57
.....where and when were the Apostles baptized?

ArtificialGrape
04-27-2011, 09:40
.....where and when were the Apostles baptized?
While not wading further into the baptism debate, I will point out that this question/suggestion contains the "argument from ignorance" logic fallacy.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course, the Apostles may have had a grandFather clause :)

-ArtificialGrape

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 09:57
While not wading further into the baptism debate, I will point out that this question/suggestion contains the "argument from ignorance" logic fallacy.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course, the Apostles may have had a grandFather clause :)

-ArtificialGrape

or actually not, in Seminary a lot of Biblical critical analysis is derived from the "question of silence" on such an important subject as, say salvation. If baptism was essential for salvation would there not be an example of their baptism I mean after all the were Jesus' closest followers. I believe he told them to have faith in him.

Some believe Glossiola is a sign of salvation, did Jesus actually do that? Is it a gift? certainly but not essential.

Requiring baptism, tongues, etc is just a different way of making Sola Fide into a works based gospel.

jokeruh
04-27-2011, 10:59
John 3:16,17 ESV
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

emphasis mine, baptism in there anywhere?

From the same conversation: "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

If baptism is not required for salvation, then why did Jesus say it was?

when you add to the gospel, it is no longer the gospel.

True. Also, when you take away from the Gospel it is no longer the Gospel (Gal 1:6-9)

jokeruh
04-27-2011, 11:01
John 3:16,17 ESV
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

emphasis mine, baptism in there anywhere?

when you add to the gospel, it is no longer the gospel.

Please select the correct words spoken by Jesus:


a.) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16

b.) "He that believeth and is not baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

jokeruh
04-27-2011, 11:10
.....where and when were the Apostles baptized?

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother," (1 Cor 1:1)

Acts 22:16: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

If the apostle Paul did not have to baptized then why this:"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." (Acts 22:10)

If Paul did not have to be baptized, then Jesus did not know it.

Since Paul already believed, then why did Jesus tell him to go to the city to be told what he must do? Why did Annanias tell him to be baptized? Why did he need to be baptized to "wash away" his sins if he was already saved? Could he be saved without having his sins washed away?

Please answer all of these questions with Scriptural support.

jokeruh
04-27-2011, 11:16
or actually not, in Seminary a lot of Biblical critical analysis is derived from the "question of silence" on such an important subject as, say salvation. If baptism was essential for salvation would there not be an example of their baptism I mean after all the were Jesus' closest followers. I believe he told them to have faith in him.

Some believe Glossiola is a sign of salvation, did Jesus actually do that? Is it a gift? certainly but not essential.

Requiring baptism, tongues, etc is just a different way of making Sola Fide into a works based gospel.

Questions:

1) Is confession required for salvation? (Rom 10:9-10)

2) Is repentance required for salvation (Acts 17:30)

3) Is belief required for salvation? (John 8:24)

4) Is belief a work? (John 6:29) "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

jokeruh
04-27-2011, 11:20
I have noticed that, on this page alone, I have quoted/referenced at least 25 Scriptures.

You have quoted/referenced Rom 1:17 and John 3:16-17 only. Perhaps you should investigate more of the Scriptures.

Schabesbert
04-27-2011, 12:44
Questions:

1) Is confession required for salvation? (Rom 10:9-10)

2) Is repentance required for salvation (Acts 17:30)

3) Is belief required for salvation? (John 8:24)

4) Is belief a work? (John 6:29) "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
You've made a good case, and I'm not disputing anything you've said except I'd include one caveat: baptism is required ORDINARILY, apart from an exceptional act of God. For instance, the OT Saints were saved before there was any baptism. Saved, yes, through Christ's redeming act (in anticipation of that act), but without actual water baptism.

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257)
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 16:11
I have noticed that, on this page alone, I have quoted/referenced at least 25 Scriptures.

You have quoted/referenced Rom 1:17 and John 3:16-17 only. Perhaps you should investigate more of the Scriptures.

I have investigated the scriptures and with the vast majority of evangelical Christian theologians agree that Campbellism is a works/righteousness addition to the Gospel of Sola Fide.

none for me, thanks....

on a side note, since you repented.....ever sinned again?

Schabesbert
04-27-2011, 16:15
the Gospel of Sola Fide.
There is no Gospel of Sola Fide.
Sola Fide was something made up by Martin Luther in the 1500s.

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 16:36
There is no Gospel of Sola Fide.
Sola Fide was something made up by Martin Luther in the 1500s.

yea right, let's ignore Rom 1:17

but, RC brother do you believe that RCC is the only Christian church and all members of those other churches are not "saved" at all?
I do not deny your salvation by virtue of you being a member of the RCC, the guy you are cheering on does.....

For the CC your infant baptism does not count as baptism unto repentance.


Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria!

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 16:55
Back to the OP ?

stay away from churches, they are full of people who think they have the truth cornered and everybody else is wrong...

Schabesbert
04-27-2011, 17:03
yea right, let's ignore Rom 1:17
Not me!

Ro 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

We must be righteous. Through faith. BTW, faith does NOT mean merely "belief" as in assent. It implies other things, including obedience.

We certainly believe in Fide. It's the Sola part that is non-biblical.

but, RC brother do you believe that RCC is the only Christian church and all members of those other churches are not "saved" at all?
We believe in only ONE Truth. Logically, if there are mutually exclusive beliefs, at least one is false.

But Jesus promised that the ONE Church that He founded would be free of doctrinal error.

People who started their own denominations sinned. Those following them are "wrong" in some way or another, but may not have culpability for their mistaken beliefs, so yes, they can certainly have salvation.

I do not deny your salvation by virtue of you being a member of the RCC, the guy you are cheering on does.....
That makes him right in this instance, wrong in others.

For the CC your infant baptism does not count as baptism unto repentance.
Hmmm .... belief IS a work, so you believe that works are required?

rgregoryb
04-27-2011, 19:05
Sorry, we just had F3 and F4 tornadoes got through the neighborhood.

This stuff tires me (religious bickering) and so I move on, secure in my sola fide (faith produces works not vice versa)

jokeruh
05-01-2011, 21:01
I have investigated the scriptures and with the vast majority of evangelical Christian theologians agree that Campbellism is a works/righteousness addition to the Gospel of Sola Fide.

none for me, thanks....

Question: Should every Scripture be taken into account when interpreting the Bible? (please include Scriptural support)

Question: which Scripture refers to "faith only"?

Question: will you (and all people) be judged based on what the "vast majority of evangelical Christian theologians" say; or will you be judged on what the Scriptures teach?

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

on a side note, since you repented.....ever sinned again?

Yes I have sinned after having initially repented. Didn't John write: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8)"?

If I have counted correctly, you have asked me 5 questions and I have answered all 5 of your questions (and that, with Scriptural support).

On the other hand, if I have counted correctly (not counting the questions in this post), I have asked you 12 questions (based on Scriptural support) and you have not answered any of my questions.

jokeruh
05-01-2011, 21:06
Back to the OP ?

stay away from churches, they are full of people who think they have the truth cornered and everybody else is wrong...

Hmmmmm......that is not what God said. On the contrary, God said that only the saved are in the church. If a person stays away from the church, then he can't be saved.

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved [those that were saved - ASV]." Acts 2:47

jokeruh
05-01-2011, 21:09
This stuff tires me (religious bickering) and so I move on, secure in my sola fide (faith produces works not vice versa)

Faith only?

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder." (James 2:17)

hannielonline
05-09-2011, 14:13
Yet whatever your or mine opinion on them they exist under the larger banner of Christianity and are most likely as shore as you that they are the proper practices of faith. Still funny to hear Christians speak of being born again, for me. <!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--><o:p></o:p>

I didn't give my opinion I stated facts that can be proven simply reading and studying the Bible. What I think doesn't matter in the least. There is no larger banner of Christianity, Christ is the banner, either you are under Him or not. Being born again is defined within the Bible and is not the same as reincarnation, it has to do with receiving a nature change that can only be done spiritually and by the Spirit of God to those who repent or turn from sin and turn to God through Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and salvation from the bondage and penalty of sin.

ftw13
05-10-2011, 02:59
don't join a cult,just let your children read the bible and decide for themselves if they can actually believe it. i knew when i read and studied it as a child it was a con....some kids are easily impressed though....never know

wjv
05-16-2011, 16:54
Any of those churches have a dedicated children's ministry program (youth group, Sunday school, AWANA, Catechism)

TKM
06-05-2011, 16:39
Any of those churches have a dedicated children's ministry program (youth group, Sunday school, AWANA, Catechism)

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -

Substitute the word "soul" for "humanity" and the irony should hit you so hard that your kids will fall down. :dunno:

kalifornia
06-06-2011, 08:21
I think baptism is like circumcision "a sign". One thing the bible is clear on, God has been saving sinners the same exact way since Genesis.