LnL AP in Action. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 14:48
So here is a Video of me loading. This morning trying to figure out why Stevie and everyone was struggling with primers, i decided to investigate. So i fiddled around with it and found a IKEA wrench that looked just right. Not that i had a problem with seating primers, but now it takes about 1/3 the force. So if anyone with a LnL would like a Wrench...Call me. You can have mine.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mojustin?feature=mhum

And if any of you know how to paste the video to thread please do..

WiskyT
04-24-2011, 14:54
:whistling:

.....

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 14:56
:whistling:

.....

:faint:

GioaJack
04-24-2011, 15:05
Apparently you and XDRoX use the same production screen writers... either that or everyone in California is a deaf mute. :dunno:

That's pretty much the speed I load at even with case feeders be it the LNL's or the 1050's. I'm just mot able to really move much faster. I usually have a rate of about 400 an hour... why go quick, what else do I have to do with my time?

How come the pan on that scale is almost touching the bench... is it broken or is that just the way BLUE stuff comes? :whistling:

Smoking is illegal in California and you're too young anyway... send me those Marlboro's, and the rest of the carton.

Oh, just so no one beats me to it... every one of those primers must be high, it's a known fact LNL's can't seat primers.


Jack

XDRoX
04-24-2011, 15:12
What's the name of this video? I'm on my iPad and the link won't work.

dudel
04-24-2011, 16:51
Dang. I believe my 550s faster than that, even with hand indexing. I know Ron59s must be quicker or he would have only loaded 10K rounds to date.

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 17:03
As i said in my post before i added the video, i was going to go at my normal relaxed pace. Plus at a round every 5-6 seconds, That's 600 rounds a hour. I really would like to see your 550 go faster than that. DUDE!!. Don't be jealous..

High Altitude
04-24-2011, 17:31
What's the name of this video? I'm on my iPad and the link won't work.

Hornady LnL AP loading .45acp

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 17:44
Here you go guys, watch both in action...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6266247#post6266247

High Altitude
04-24-2011, 18:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n72j7ngHIOo

GioaJack
04-24-2011, 18:11
As i said in my post before i added the video, i was going to go at my normal relaxed pace. Plus at a round every 5-6 seconds, That's 600 rounds a hour. I really would like to see your 550 go faster than that. DUDE!!. Don't be jealous..


Alright, lets everyone keep it civil. The RED/BLUE war is something we all have fun with we don't want to screw up a good thing.

Besides, the more we argue the pros and cons of RED/BLUE the less bandwidth Little Stevie has to post with. :whistling:

And liberals say there is no upside to war... HA!


Jack

ChrisJn
04-24-2011, 18:25
Here you go guys, watch both in action...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6266247#post6266247

Glad I chose the LNL!!

Colorado4Wheel
04-24-2011, 19:32
You clearly are not pushing as hard as I had to push to seat my CCI primers. Hornady put a metal disc under my primer punch the second time I got the frame.

As i said in my post before i added the video, i was going to go at my normal relaxed pace. Plus at a round every 5-6 seconds, That's 600 rounds a hour. I really would like to see your 550 go faster than that. DUDE!!. Don't be jealous..

600 rds a hour is 100 rds in 10 mins. I was at 8 mins per hundred on my 550. But your pace is the pace most people prefer to load at.

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 19:40
Yes I could go much much faster, but why..i would only be doing it to show off and not the true function of the press. It really sounds like you got a lemon, and as long as Dillons been around im sure they have made a few lemons too

shotgunred
04-24-2011, 20:20
You could easily pick up another 100 rounds an hour if you stopped your left hand at the press. You bring it all the way back to your chest and then stall and then bring it back forward to your chest.

themighty9mm
04-24-2011, 20:25
It seemed very slow. I have never really watched a lnl run before. Seems even with the 550 I get better speed. The lnl apears to almost need a casefeeder. For auto indexing seems like alot of wasted motion w/o one

Colorado4Wheel
04-24-2011, 20:28
Yes I could go much much faster, but why..i would only be doing it to show off and not the true function of the press. It really sounds like you got a lemon, and as long as Dillons been around im sure they have made a few lemons too

You seem to need a daily reminder that the Casefeeder was also a issue. You should also try loading some 9mm with CCI primers. Known to be a pretty hard primer.

shotgunred
04-24-2011, 20:32
Ok I have to know. What is with the cheap wrench bolted under the primer feeding for?

Colorado4Wheel
04-24-2011, 20:35
It improves the press.

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 20:37
I don't understand how you think that is slow. Watch both video and look and how much extra movement is needed on a 550, plus chris is moving at a much faster pace then me. I am just doing my normal reloading. And i do believe nothing is harder to prime than 5.56 brass and i do it all day on the LnL. I'm not worried about a contest i know the LnL is faster because your forgetting i loaded on a 550b for awhile. The 550 is a great press and i am not knocking it, it just was not for me so i went with what i feel is a better machine for around the same price. How you say the Dillon is faster, even though Dillon means 500 Rhr that's why its called 550, and the LnL rate that i am casually loading is over 500 Rhr. But feel free to keep saying it slow, The Video don't lie.....:supergrin:

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 20:39
Ok I have to know. What is with the cheap wrench bolted under the primer feeding for?

I just put it on this morning while i was thinking about Stevie. All it does is reduce the force needed to prime. I will probably take it off, i was just tinkering. Look at the Video of XD priming, he doesn't seem to be using his pinkie to seat them, i see a little table movement..:whistling:

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 20:41
You could easily pick up another 100 rounds an hour if you stopped your left hand at the press. You bring it all the way back to your chest and then stall and then bring it back forward to your chest.


Again i reload because to me it is a fun relaxing hobby. Just like sex i like to take my time, not see how many loads i can make..:dunno:

But I do see what your saying..Everyone should record them self's and learn...Let's get a thread going on of everyone....

themighty9mm
04-24-2011, 20:56
I don't understand how you think that is slow. Watch both video and look and how much extra movement is needed on a 550, plus chris is moving at a much faster pace then me. I am just doing my normal reloading. And i do believe nothing is harder to prime than 5.56 brass and i do it all day on the LnL. I'm not worried about a contest i know the LnL is faster because your forgetting i loaded on a 550b for awhile. The 550 is a great press and i am not knocking it, it just was not for me so i went with what i feel is a better machine for around the same price. How you say the Dillon is faster, even though Dillon means 500 Rhr that's why its called 550, and the LnL rate that i am casually loading is over 500 Rhr. But feel free to keep saying it slow, The Video don't lie.....:supergrin:
Just appears slower to me (not comparing videos, just from my own loading on a 550 vs your vid). The wasted movement bit. Well on the 550 both hands are doing something. Case and bullet placed at the same time. The lnl, you right hand is just kinda hangin out. While your left is doing twice the effort. Just seems the 550 is faster. With less down time in between rotations. Could be wrong though. It seems to work for ya. So keep rockin it untill it doesnt

Like I said though I have never used one before. I personally dont have a dog in the fight. Your loadng your own ammo. IMO its a step above most regardless of the machine you use. Just think the lnl could really really use a casefeeder

Colorado4Wheel
04-24-2011, 21:10
I have seen a guy load 750rds+ a hour pace on a LnL. He grabed the case and bullet at the same time. He was moving doing that. Besides that trick I don't think the LnL is faster. Oddly, lack of autoindexing does not hurt the 550 that much when it comes to speed. I think it's a wash. He could go faster on the LnL if he wanted. I am not suprised he thinks the 550 is slower. It takes some time to get the process down on a 550. You need to own it and use it for months to really get fast with it. Speed is not the reason to pick a LnL or 550 with out a casefeeder.

Keep in mind that I can load 100 rds under 8 mins on my old 550. Thats pretty quick for a non case feed machine.

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 21:17
Really i Think its less movement on the LnL, with leaving your hand on the arm and just doing short movements with bullet and case. I for sure can do longer sessions on the LnL than the 550 with less fatigue. My arms don't flail around so much on the LnL. But With all the Dillon extra it does get very ERGO..

GioaJack
04-24-2011, 21:29
Little Stevie had this discussion earlier today while his beautiful wife was chauffeuring him around the great state of Colorado.

For me, just me mind you, the LNL without the case feeder is just about the same speed as my 550 but less fatiguing on my back since I can't support myself upright without at least one hand holding on to something.

My LNL's with a case feeder are still the same speed as my 550 but I reduce the movement of my left hand by about 75% since I grab a handful of bullets 5 times to complete a hundred rounds. Is the machine actually faster with a case feeder? Of course, but I'm not interested in speed, just economy of motion so my loading sessions can last longer.

I guess it's all in what your personal needs are. With 4 Dillons and 2 LNL's I try not to be bias... they all work, and the 2 different colors brighten the room. :supergrin:


Jack

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 21:37
Jack you are the guy who started all this, i was going to get a Dillon until you.. You complete me..

Boxerglocker
04-24-2011, 22:23
It seemed very slow. I have never really watched a lnl run before. Seems even with the 550 I get better speed. The lnl apears to almost need a casefeeder. For auto indexing seems like alot of wasted motion w/o one

I have to agree, though in theory the LNL should be faster with auto index. Looking at the ergonomics it obviously IMO isn't. Especially if you have to reach twice on the left side place and case then a bullet down.
I also have to agree with C4w regarding the guy that loaded reaching for both a bullet and case at the same time. That would really be the way to speed it up.
Again we go back to the same debate and IMO comparing the wrong machines though.
Put a casefeeder on the LNL and lets see what it can really do against a XL650, running all out in a 400-500 round speed and reliability race.

themighty9mm
04-24-2011, 22:30
I have to agree, though in theory the LNL should be faster with auto index. Looking at the ergonomics it obviously IMO isn't. Especially if you have to reach twice on the left side place and case then a bullet down.
I also have to agree with C4w regarding the guy that loaded reaching for both a bullet and case at the same time. That would really be the way to speed it up.
Again we go back to the same debate and IMO comparing the wrong machines though.
Put a casefeeder on the LNL and lets see what it can really do against a XL650, running all out in a 400-500 round speed and reliability race.

I agree, auto index vs auto index

EL_NinO619
04-24-2011, 22:48
even if I speed up and loaded 700 rounds a hour some how in most of you eyes a dillon will still be faster...obviusly where not watching the same videos.............one person rushing to achieve the same rate as another casualy loading...????

And the winner is....drum role.....Dillon

themighty9mm
04-24-2011, 23:00
Like I said i'm not comparing videos. I'm comparing your video to my pace. I dont rush, as thats how mistakes happen. My pace is also casual. Just seems faster. Maybe its just perception?
After watching both yours and XD's video (about 30 sec) it would appear both are going casual and keeping up bullet per bullet.

For you the lnl works, for me it does not appear as though I'd enjoy it as much as my dillon, unless it had a casefeeder.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 00:38
even if I speed up and loaded 700 rounds a hour some how in most of you eyes a dillon will still be faster...obviusly where not watching the same videos.............one person rushing to achieve the same rate as another casualy loading...????

And the winner is....drum role.....Dillon

Your reaching twice on one side to retrive a case and bullet. It's simply time plus distance... not difficult to do the math.

Chris isn't rushing, he looks busy cause down arms/hands are moving, plus he is manually indexing, something you are not doing. It's just ecomomy of motion. Besides that it also depends on the individual you have to be adept a loading on both machines to load at a reasonable even pace and determine which machine is faster. (C4W and Rusty claim up to 250 an hour on a LCT, I can't come close to that on my best day). Measure the distance your hands travel placing a bullet/case against his more ergonomic strongmount setup. Like I said do the math.
I could push 600 and hour on a SDB in 9mm when I wanted to, my hands never traveled more than 8 inches to reach a case or bullet or the lever knob.
Like I said before, speed isn't the number one question here, put a casefeeder on the LNL and do a speed/reliablility test race against the clock and later a XL650 and lets see.

By the way I just timed several round drops on both you and Chris your both averaging 5-6 seconds a round. I just had Amy time me on the 650, 100 rounds in 6 minutes 27 seconds.

casesensitive
04-25-2011, 07:22
I'm new here and new at this. Please explain what the wrench is doing to help your loading

casesensitive
04-25-2011, 07:34
Here you go guys, watch both in action...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6266247#post6266247

It appears the speed is close to the same. The operation of the LNL looks like much less effort . Correct me if I am wrong.

Trying to understand how comparing the 550 instead of the 650 is fair.

casesensitive
04-25-2011, 10:11
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C9GALh8PIR4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 12:30
You could easily pick up another 100 rounds an hour if you stopped your left hand at the press. You bring it all the way back to your chest and then stall and then bring it back forward to your chest.

I've heard of other people saying, and after seeing your video I think I agree, that you can go faster if you grab a small handful of projectiles to keep in your palm and then just grab a case with index finger and thumb each time. I think you would also benefit from some sort of bullet tray that keeps the bullets nearer to station #4 (and not behind the "case feeder slider thingy").

-StaTiK-

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 12:36
By the way I just timed several round drops on both you and Chris your both averaging 5-6 seconds a round. I just had Amy time me on the 650, 100 rounds in 6 minutes 27 seconds.

I posted this on CalGuns earlier.

Having nothing to do in the last 30 minutes I did some math for you :cool: Keep in mind that this is extrapolation and therefore may not be accurate for a sustained rate (ie just because I can do 10 push-ups in 10 seconds doesn't mean I can do 60 in one minute). That said, both videos show what I consider to be very sustainable rates.

For the LNL the first part of the video seemed to be the longest uninterrupted run. 17 rounds in 1:41... .168 rounds per second, 10.100 rounds per minute, 605.941 rounds per hour.

This could also be described as 1 round every 5.941 seconds, or 100 rounds in 9:54.

Your 550 does 100 rounds in 9 minutes (there is some dead time at the beginning & end) so that's .185 rounds per second, 11.111 rounds per minute, 666.667 rounds per hour, even including one crushed case.

This could also be described as 1 round every 5.400 seconds.

The 550 calculation is more accurate because it is averaged over 9 minutes (not 1:41) and starts/ends with an empty shell plate.

Both numbers are skewed, in my opinion, because they are not "sustained" when factoring in the loading of primers and powder.

Thank you very much for posting these. I often hear that the 550 is faster because of the two-handed operation, and while this appears to be true it isn't remarkably so. I would also caveat that by saying the LNL seems like it could be made more efficient than the example shown by using a bullet tray comparable to the 550.

-StaTiK-

PS feel free to correct my math. You may notice that the numbers are not exact, and that is because I kept the calculator default (12+ decimal places) for calculations but rounded to the nearest thousandth for each posted rate.

Flipz
04-25-2011, 12:44
After watching both vids and trying to see which was faster Id have to say it was a tie. Each were loading a bullet every 5 seconds. I know each person was loading at a casual pace so its hard to tell which would be faster when going all out. But as far as comparing these 2 videos, it was a tie.

As far as wasted movement, doing my best not to be biased as I own the LnL, Id have to say the 550 loading process has more wasted movement. No matter what 550 owners would admit, manually indexing is wasted movement when compared to the LnL's auto-indexing. This is something that cant be argued. Its an extra step the LnL doesnt have. Plus, when loading on a 550 you must remove your right hand from the handle to place an empty case onto the shellplate and then place your right hand back on the handle. This is also wasted movement and can be counted as 2 different movements. While on the other hand the LnL requires you to place and empty case and bullet from the left side, thats 2 movements. There is nothing required of your right hand, 0 movements.

Its unfortunate that C4W had the issues he did with the LnL. One has to remember that a Lemon cant slip through quality control, it happens. There is no dought that a few faulty Dillons have slipped through also. Both are great presses. Thats the most important thing to remember. We wouldnt be having this discussion if we were comparing a Ferrari to a Honda. In that case there would be no comparison. But we are talking about two great presses of just about equal capabilites. In the end, you cant go wrong with either.

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 12:44
I think I agree, that you can go faster if you grab a small handful of projectiles to keep in your palm and then just grab a case with index finger and thumb each time. I think you would also benefit from some sort of bullet tray that keeps the bullets nearer to station #4 (and not behind the "case feeder slider thingy").

Based on these videos alone (again, far from conclusive) the 550 seems 10% faster than the LNL. See my earlier post for the math. Is this alleged reduction in speed worth auto indexing, a 5th station, LNL bushing, etc? I think this is a personal decision but I can certainly understand how someone would feel that it is.

-StaTiK-

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 12:57
As far as wasted movement, doing my best not to be biased as I own the LnL, Id have to say the 550 loading process has more wasted movement. No matter what 550 owners would admit, manually indexing is wasted movement when compared to the LnL's auto-indexing. This is something that cant be argued. Its an extra step the LnL doesnt have. Plus, when loading on a 550 you must remove your right hand from the handle to place an empty case onto the shellplate and then place your right hand back on the handle. This is also wasted movement and can be counted as 2 different movements. While on the other hand the LnL requires you to place and empty case and bullet from the left side, thats 2 movements. There is nothing required of your right hand, 0 movements.

Distance times speed times the number of time moved are the factors regarding speed. It can't be argued. All you have to do is measure the distances each operators hand has to travel, whether one or both. I could load just as fast if not faster on either SDB I owned. The 550 using both is a wash IMO compared to the LNL with it's auto indexing. Does that mean the SDB is faster than a LNL???
Again lets put it to the test and compare two machines that should be compared, both auto indexing, both casefed. Reliability and speed being the criteria. It's not about how fast I can load or how fast you can load... but the potential for either maching to load reliably at it full potential. Someone with a LNL casefeeder needs to set up.

Then and only then will it be proved that this staion 1 locator
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3501.jpg
is truly worth the extra cost expended in a XL650 caliber conversion set-up as opposed to the LNL universal system.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 13:11
I posted this on CalGuns earlier.

Having nothing to do in the last 30 minutes I did some math for you :cool: Keep in mind that this is extrapolation and therefore may not be accurate for a sustained rate (ie just because I can do 10 push-ups in 10 seconds doesn't mean I can do 60 in one minute). That said, both videos show what I consider to be very sustainable rates.

For the LNL the first part of the video seemed to be the longest uninterrupted run. 17 rounds in 1:41... .168 rounds per second, 10.100 rounds per minute, 605.941 rounds per hour.

This could also be described as 1 round every 5.941 seconds, or 100 rounds in 9:54.

Your 550 does 100 rounds in 9 minutes (there is some dead time at the beginning & end) so that's .185 rounds per second, 11.111 rounds per minute, 666.667 rounds per hour, even including one crushed case.

This could also be described as 1 round every 5.400 seconds.

The 550 calculation is more accurate because it is averaged over 9 minutes (not 1:41) and starts/ends with an empty shell plate.

Both numbers are skewed, in my opinion, because they are not "sustained" when factoring in the loading of primers and powder.

Thank you very much for posting these. I often hear that the 550 is faster because of the two-handed operation, and while this appears to be true it isn't remarkably so. I would also caveat that by saying the LNL seems like it could be made more efficient than the example shown by using a bullet tray comparable to the 550.

-StaTiK-

PS feel free to correct my math. You may notice that the numbers are not exact, and that is because I kept the calculator default (12+ decimal places) for calculations but rounded to the nearest thousandth for each posted rate.

Read my post again, I merely based my average on the number on times a bullet hit the finished case bin for both machines. Your math may or maynot be correct but for the comparison of the total time for these videos only. I never stated one was faster than the other, actually I think based on round per and hour in these videos, it's a wash for these two machines. The better ergo of the 550 making the difference. Plus your talking 2 different operators here. That also is a very important factor.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 13:27
Case feeder is in order my friends, even though Chris wont chime in, I know that is not his casual pace. Ie crushed case, so its really not a fair race from the start. Like I said earlier from my experience loading on both "I" think the lnl is faster and shoulf only be compared to the 650

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 13:29
No matter what 550 owners would admit, manually indexing is wasted movement when compared to the LnL's auto-indexing. This is something that cant be argued.

Maybe indexing is an extra motion, a thumb flick for a hand already in position, but I'm not convinced it is any slower.

Plus, when loading on a 550 you must remove your right hand from the handle to place an empty case onto the shellplate and then place your right hand back on the handle. This is also wasted movement and can be counted as 2 different movements.

Not convinced. Two motions with left hand, vs one motion with 2 hands. Same difference. You could argue, however, that you can do two operations simultaneously with the 550 but not with the LNL.

Just playing Devil's advocate here.

-StaTiK-

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 13:34
your talking 2 different operators here. That also is a very important factor.

Completely agree. These videos are far from conclusive. I was just providing some numbers to help quantify the argument (or fuel the fire). :popcorn:
-StaTiK-

IndyGunFreak
04-25-2011, 13:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfvjP21OyXQ

He notes a "hypothetical" rate of 1400/hr.. but obviously his press is running quite well.

GioaJack
04-25-2011, 14:02
Hypothetically I have a date with Heather Locklear on Friday night... realistically I'm going to oil the wheels on my walker and unkink my oxygen hose. :faint:


Jack

IndyGunFreak
04-25-2011, 14:10
Hypothetically I have a date with Heather Locklear on Friday night... realistically I'm going to oil the wheels on my walker and unkink my oxygen hose. :faint:


Jack

Well, take a video of you oiling the wheels on your walker and unkinking your oxygen hose, then we'll talk... :rofl:

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 14:20
Case feeder is in order my friends, even though Chris wont chime in, I know that is not his casual pace. Ie crushed case, so its really not a fair race from the start. Like I said earlier from my experience loading on both "I" think the lnl is faster and shoulf only be compared to the 650

I totally agree that it should be faster all things being equal. Optimizing the ergo for both. The auto index of the LNL gets the edge in that alone. However, the way you have your LNL set up, my observation is that it's equal at best with this comparison. Again we shouldn't be comparing the operators but the presses themselves LNL/XL650.

Flipz
04-25-2011, 14:25
Maybe indexing is an extra motion, a thumb flick for a hand already in position, but I'm not convinced it is any slower.



Not convinced. Two motions with left hand, vs one motion with 2 hands. Same difference. You could argue, however, that you can do two operations simultaneously with the 550 but not with the LNL.

Just playing Devil's advocate here.

-StaTiK-
But its not one motion with both hands on the 550. With the left hand you must index (1) and then place the bullet (2). With the right hand you must take your hand off the handle and grab an empty case (1),and then place the empty case (2), then return you hand to the handle and pull (3). Thats 2 motions with your left hand, and 3 motions with your right hand.

No matter how you look at it the 550 has more movements necessary to the loading process. You cant argue this.

The only real way to compare a Hornady to a Dillon is to compare the LnL to a 650. They both are auto-indexing with the same number of stations. IMO comparing the 550 to an LnL is just wrong. The LnL and 650 are much more similar. If someone could compare the LnL with a casefeeder, to a 650 with a casefeeder, then that is what should be done to see which one comes out on top.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 14:48
:goodpost:...I agree, you are baseing the distance that I move, and we all know I suck and load slow. I could shorten my reach and grab both at once and really speed it up. I also have a bullet holder that im working on and I may figure out how to get the brass closer for now, I just have never thought about speeding it up because I dont need to I get help with preping so I have more time to load..

casesensitive
04-25-2011, 14:51
Maybe indexing is an extra motion, a thumb flick for a hand already in position, but I'm not convinced it is any slower.



Not convinced. Two motions with left hand, vs one motion with 2 hands. Same difference. You could argue, however, that you can do two operations simultaneously with the 550 but not with the LNL.

Just playing Devil's advocate here.

-StaTiK- I would think everyone would agree. The person working the 550 is working a lot harder than the guy working the LNL. That looks like a leisurely pace. The other guy is no doubt using more effort to accomplish the same thing.
Is there anyone that doesn't see that?

shotgunred
04-25-2011, 14:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfvjP21OyXQ

He notes a "hypothetical" rate of 1400/hr.. but obviously his press is running quite well.

When I was trying to get accurate rates for different presses for a real hour markco over at BE did a 1 hour run on his 650 for me. 1127 rounds in a real hour including having to get more bullets and load up his primer filler tubes.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 15:11
Yet I was doing this to compare two presses in the same price range..and I have not even brought up the 500 free bullets. When XD or me get a 650 I will actually but them side by side and let the true challange begin.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 15:35
Yet I was doing this to compare two presses in the same price range..and I have not even brought up the 500 free bullets. When XD or me get a 650 I will actually but them side by side and let the true challange begin.

The cost argument has already been given LNL wins hands down it's cheaper, withor without your FREE bullets. When you compare it to a non auto indexing 550 (even a XL650). The real argument here is after you get and LNL without a optional case feeder, then fork out the $$$ to get one... is it as reliable and based on the reliability as fast as a XL650???

If you want to compare speed for non case auto indexing machine compare a LNL and SDB. Then of course you'll bring up the non propriety die option :upeyes:

Colorado4Wheel
04-25-2011, 15:37
But its not one motion with both hands on the 550. With the left hand you must index (1) and then place the bullet (2). With the right hand you must take your hand off the handle and grab an empty case (1),and then place the empty case (2), then return you hand to the handle and pull (3). Thats 2 motions with your left hand, and 3 motions with your right hand.

Just for the record, I don't think the LnL is faster or slower then the 550. I PREFER the 550 loading style. For me it's faster. But Jack it's not.

BUT, Flipz you have the order wrong.

(and this is with out a press in front of me.

1) While pulling the handle you are grabbing a new bullet. You are looking at the bullet while pulling the handle. It's easy to multitask this process.
2) While pushing to prime you are placing the bullet on the case.
3) After pushing to prime you are grabbing a new case while you index.
4) Place the case in just after you index.
5) Pull the handle.

I don't think I forgot anything.

You do the same amount of work on the 550 as the LnL. Your just doing more with the left hand then you do with the 550. It's no big deal.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 16:02
Just for the record, I don't think the LnL is faster or slower then the 550. I PREFER the 550 loading style. For me it's faster. But Jack it's not.

BUT, Flipz you have the order wrong.

(and this is with out a press in front of me.

1) While pulling the handle you are grabbing a new bullet. You are looking at the bullet while pulling the handle. It's easy to multitask this process.
2) While pushing to prime you are placing the bullet on the case.
3) After pushing to prime you are grabbing a new case while you index.
4) Place the case in just after you index.
5) Pull the handle.

I don't think I forgot anything.

You do the same amount of work on the 550 as the LnL. Your just doing more with the left hand then you do with the 550. It's no big deal.

I don't think so... additionally aside for the sequence look at it like this.

Aside from the lever movement which is a given to size and deprime… for either press.

LNL you reach a total distance of 12 inches back and forth 4 times to retrieve a bullet and case. Total distance 48 inches.

550B 2 movements on the left hand to retrieve and place a bullet at a distance of 6 inches each total 12 inches traveled. The right hand you let go of the lever to retrieve and place a case from the empty case bin 12 inches, place it in the shell plate 6 inches reach for the handle 7 inches, reach again from the top of lever and stroke 12 inches. Total distance traveled 37 inches. Once cycle of movements on each side of the press Left side 12 inches, Right 25 inches…Total distance 37 plus 12 = 49 inches.

So your talking 1 inch difference, and I'm intentionally giving the edge to the LNL. Based on moving at the same speed with either one of both hands it's a wash either than the auto index in regards to speed. Feel free to confirm the distances and adjust as required. You cannot argue with the math, if one has to travel a total distance longer than the other at the same speed, he will always come second.

Colorado4Wheel
04-25-2011, 16:09
I tip my precisely measured cap to you :)

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 16:24
I tip my precisely measured cap to you :)

Thank you Sir :supergrin:

Flipz
04-25-2011, 16:25
Ok. Put aside number of inches traveled and the rest of the blah blah blah, the 550 has more "steps" then the LnL. I dont see how anyone could argue this fact.

Youre also comparing a press that has 4 stations (which I personally see as a big negative) to a press that has 5. The one with 4 has less distance traveled from the beginning station to reach the end. This isnt rocket science although C4W may disagree with his aero engineer backround. Its not a fair comparison. The only fair, and even reasonable comparison, would be between a 650 with a casefeeder and an LnL with a casefeeder. Cant we all agree on that?

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 16:32
When I was trying to get accurate rates for different presses for a real hour markco over at BE did a 1 hour run on his 650 for me. 1127 rounds in a real hour including having to get more bullets and load up his primer filler tubes.

Is that the same guy who single handedly started the Glock 40 kB panic and climbed Everest in his pajamas? I think he also beat Neil Armstrong to the Moon by two weeks.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 16:32
Ok. Put aside number of inches traveled and the rest of the blah blah blah, the 550 has more "steps" then the LnL. I dont see how anyone could argue this fact.

Youre also comparing a press that has 4 stations (which I personally see as a big negative) to a press that has 5. The one with 4 has less distance traveled from the beginning station to reach the end. This isnt rocket science although C4W may disagree with his aero engineer backround. Its not a fair comparison. The only fair, and even reasonable comparison, would be between a 650 with a casefeeder and an LnL with a casefeeder. Cant we all agree on that?

:faint: Yes AGREE,That's what we have been saying over and over again... The edge goes to the LNL against the 550 with it's auto index, but based on set-up in those two videos regardless of number of movements only by a very slight margin if any dependent on the operator.

Flipz
04-25-2011, 16:36
:faint: Yes AGREE,That's what we have been saying over and over again... The edge goes to the LNL against the 550 with it's auto index, but based on set-up in those two videos regardless of number of movements only by a very slight margin if any dependent on the operator.

As the great Vin Diesel once said "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning!"

IMO the edge doesnt just go to the LnL because it has auto-indexing. A big deal to me and many others is the 5th station. Its a combination of those two things, and some others, that helped me chose the LnL over the 550. And Im very glad I did.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 16:36
Yes one rushing and another going at a casual pace..hum

GioaJack
04-25-2011, 16:41
Alright, I'm taking a break from teaching the son-in-law how to break down his STI, (he's not familiar with a 1911 with a one piece guide rod... I think they're an absolute PITA with no advantage over a plunger) and now he's in there sizing bullets. I'm sitting here smoking. :supergrin:

Boxer, I just read your post with the measurements and amount of movements and as far as I can tell you're right on... for the way Justin has his bullets and cases laid out. But there are other ways.

As an example, they make a bullet tray that attaches to the front post of the press, very similar to the tray Dillon makes but to the front instead of the side. I didn't want to spend the money so I made my own out of an Akro bin and two cable ties. Worked fine, actually worked great, you only move your hand about three inches to seat a bullet, much less than half the distance I have to move on a 1050.

Most people would love it, I couldn't use it it... it required me to keep my arm up without being able to rest it on anything and my back won't allow for that. Even with the 1050 I actually lean my left arm on the bullet tray to support myself. If I had gone with the standard bin that comes with the 1050 I would have been screwed, it requires you to reach almost to the rear of the press to pick-up a bullet.

If one were so inclined one could easily mount to Akro bins on the front of the LNL, one with cases one with bullets. One could then make the decision as to make two separate movements, one bullet, one case or you could simply grab a quantity of bullets, then a case and insert the case and seat the bullet without the arm ever moving more than a few inches.

I think in fairness to Justin everyone is trying to extrapolate the ultimate potential of the machine based on the way he is set up using it for the speed he wants and is comfortable with.

I suppose there are some people on here that could keep up a production rate of 1000 to 1200 an hour on a 650 but I doubt that there are many. That's a lot of work, even for a young'un. What we might be dealing with is a situation of the tortoise and the hare... slow and steady just might get you farther in the long run that fast and having to stop.

In the end both machines will produce much more quality ammunition at a considerable faster rate than anyone here shoots. It may sound alien to some of the newbs but shooting two thousand rounds a month is nothing, many of us easily doubled that every month for years on end with equipment that doesn't even approach the speed of today's machines.

If shooting is all you do besides work, and it helps if you job involves shooting, you make the time to load what you need... only taking breaks long enough to appear in divorce court. :whistling:


Jack

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 16:48
As the great Vin Diesel once said "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning!"

IMO the edge doesnt just go to the LnL because it has auto-indexing. A big deal to me and many others is the 5th station. Its a combination of those two things, and some others, that helped me chose the LnL over the 550. And Im very glad I did.

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase, you should be you made a decent choice. The fifth station is great to have but to be honest I have thrown my RCBS lockout in the drawer. I found that though it works as intended it slows down production.
You should put a casefeeder on your LNL and get back to us on how it performs at it's FULL potential. Balance of reliability and speed. Post it on youtube, I'd like to see one, no one else seems to have posted a video of and LNL cranking them out like a XL650 can.... hmmmm :upeyes:

Yes one rushing and another going at a casual pace..hum

Your observation is an assumption that one is rushing... look at the distance traveled for each movement and it's clear. If you both move at the exact same speed its negligible on which press is faster.

I'll go on the record here and say further… If I was to be looking for a 5 station auto indexing NON- casefeed press the LNL would have been my choice and still may be in the future. IF Horandy fixes that primer leverage issue... my XL650 primes effortlessly, I couldn't imagine accepting anything less at this point.

Myke_Hart
04-25-2011, 16:59
Don't make me make a video to show how much faster the LNL is.

If I made one rushing as fast as the 550 video I think the press would average about 900 Rhr.:supergrin:

Flipz
04-25-2011, 17:12
I'm glad you are happy with your purchase, you should be you made a decent choice. The fifth station is great to have but to be honest I have thrown my RCBS lockout in the drawer. I found that though it works as intended it slows down production.
You should put a casefeeder on your LNL and get back to us on how it performs at it's FULL potential. Balance of reliability and speed. Post it on youtube, I'd like to see one, no one else seems to have posted a video of and LNL cranking them out like a XL650 can.... hmmmm :upeyes:



Your observation is an assumption that one is rushing... look at the distance traveled for each movement and it's clear. If you both move at the exact same speed its negligible on which press is faster.

I'll go on the record here and say further… If I was to be looking for a 5 station auto indexing NON- casefeed press the LNL would have been my choice and still may be in the future. IF Horandy fixes that primer leverage issue... my XL650 primes effortlessly, I couldn't imagine accepting anything less at this point.

Im not sure why you think the RCBS LO die slows things down. It has nothing to do with the pace, its just there to check the powder throw.

Ultimate Reloader has a good video of the LnL using a casefeeder.

LnL loading 9mm with casfeeder. He's not loading very fast but its obvious that he could if he wanted. Im sure his pace is just to show the workings of the press more clearly.
Start the video at the 4:30 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0CZwzg5U5Q&feature=player_embedded#at=283

And heres one of him loading .45acp with a casefeeder. Same deal, he's going slow on purpose so that the video can better show how the press operates. Start around the 5 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icj9BHc8wmI&feature=related

As far as the primer issue you speak of. I only have a slight problem with CCI LPP's, nothing else. They still seat and function 100%. They do require a SMALL amount of additional force to seat but nothing on the level of herculian strength. All other primers Ive tried seat very easily and with minimal effort. This is the only issue Ive ever had with the press, if you can even call it an issue as they still work 100%.

shotgunred
04-25-2011, 17:12
EL_NinO619 I think you should just skip the case feeder and order a bullet feeder instead. It will increase you output with out the problems involved with the case feeder.


Besides we all know the loadmaster is the absolute best reloading machine ever made bar none!

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 17:21
Im not sure why you think the RCBS LO die slows things down. It has nothing to do with the pace, its just there to check the powder throw.

Ultimate Reloader has a good video of the LnL using a casefeeder.

LnL loading 9mm with casfeeder. He's not loading very fast but its obvious that he could if he wanted. Im sure his pace is just to show the workings of the press more clearly.
Start the video at the 4:30 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0CZwzg5U5Q&feature=player_embedded#at=283

And heres one of him loading .45acp with a casefeeder. Same deal, he's going slow on purpose so that the video can better show how the press operates. Start around the 5 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icj9BHc8wmI&feature=related

Fast enough that a case feeding into station one wouldn't tip is yet to be seen.
The thing with the RCBS lockout is just I guess a flinching reaction. I can never get into a rhythm with it on. Looking down at the case is just more natural to me. I see every drop and have a good calibrated eye for watching the level of the powder. The other thing I don't like was the foot of the indicator rod always picked up grains of powder. I may give it another shot with WST.

Flipz
04-25-2011, 17:26
Fast enough that a case feeding into station one wouldn't tip is yet to be seen.
The thing with the RCBS lockout is just I guess a flinching reaction. I can never get into a rhythm with it on. Looking down at the case is just more natural to me. I see every drop and have a good calibrated eye for watching the level of the powder. The other thing I don't like was the foot of the indicator rod always picked up grains of powder. I may give it another shot with WST.

Mine did this at first, but now doesnt. Im not sure why, but it no longer picks up any powder. Its still operating 100%.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 17:29
Mine did this at first, but now doesnt. Im not sure why, but it no longer picks up any powder. Its still operating 100%.

It was probably a static electricity thing. Now that I have my press inside the apartment I may try it again.

dudel
04-25-2011, 17:38
Ok. Put aside number of inches traveled and the rest of the blah blah blah, the 550 has more "steps" then the LnL. I dont see how anyone could argue this fact.

I don't think that's in dispute. However, more steps doesn't always translate to more time. The manual index works well for me when loading rifle rounds. I control the rotation; not the machine. Less chance of tipping or spilling powder. As others have mentioned, your hand is positioned to index the shellplate. It's not like you have to move your hand away and then move it back to index.

I've had both (well, actually the LNL AP precursor, the Projector - also self indexing), and prefer the 550.

I think the only truth is people will defend what they spent their money on.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 17:41
Now that i see how a case feeder works, C4W could have easily but a 1inch piece of safety wire or any other semi stiff metal rod. That would have kept it from tipping with glock brass and would have been able to clear before the upstroke. Be prepared, June 23 there is about to be a Firestorm of LnL reloading up in this batch..lol.. That's my birthday and i want a case feeder.

Or he could have Dremaled a small canal for the Glock primer bulge. But the ultimate fix would be to lose the Tupperware gun..

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 17:45
It was probably a static electricity thing. Now that I have my press inside the apartment I may try it again.

Box mine did that also until i got a Graphite artist pencil and let my niece go to town on the foot. No more sticky, plus a nice little picture of a butterfly seems to do the trick..:supergrin:

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 17:46
I think the only truth is people will defend what they spent their money on.

I've been waiting to post this quote:

"Expensive is when the product is not worth the money." -- Karl Welcher, Leica of Germany

The Dillon XL650 with a casefeeder and higher cost caliber conversions IS worth the money.


Now that i see how a case feeder works, C4W could have easily but a 1inch piece of safety wire or any other semi stiff metal rod. That would have kept it from tipping with glock brass and would have been able to clear before the upstroke. Be prepared, June 23 there is about to be a Firestorm of LnL reloading up in this batch..lol.. That's my birthday and i want a case feeder.

Or he could have Dremaled a small canal for the Glock primer bulge. But the ultimate fix would be to lose the Tupperware gun..

So your saying modify the LNL to duplicate the design aspects of a XL650 case feed system with Station one locator? :dunno:

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 17:57
I've been waiting to post this quote:

"Expensive is when the product is not worth the money." -- Karl Welcher, Leica of Germany

The Dillon XL650 with a casefeeder and higher cost caliber conversions IS worth the money.


So your saying modify the LNL to duplicate the design aspects of a XL650 case feed system with Station one locator? :dunno:

The Caliber conversion may be worth the money in your eyes, but not mine. You save absolutely no more time than the LnL.

Oh ya and modify and duplicated a press is a new concept...:dunno:

Colorado4Wheel
04-25-2011, 18:03
Ok. Put aside number of inches traveled and the rest of the blah blah blah, the 550 has more "steps" then the LnL. I dont see how anyone could argue this fact.

Youre also comparing a press that has 4 stations (which I personally see as a big negative) to a press that has 5. The one with 4 has less distance traveled from the beginning station to reach the end. This isnt rocket science although C4W may disagree with his aero engineer backround. Its not a fair comparison. The only fair, and even reasonable comparison, would be between a 650 with a casefeeder and an LnL with a casefeeder. Cant we all agree on that?

Blah, blah, blah. Here is the reality. I personally, would take a 550 over a LnL any day of the week and twice on the weekend. Others would do the exact opposite. Neither is right or wrong. I just prefer the 550. I got really tired of adjusting dies on the LnL. Every time I needed to adjust my flare die it would pop out and make it a PITA. I prefer the manual indexing to the auto indexing. Yep, I prefer it. I much prefer the press not auto indexing after I put the bullet on the case. I got tired of the bullet failing over after it 1/2 indexed. With the 550 at least my hand supported it so it didn't fall. The next guy may feel 100% different and that's OK. Everyone is different.

Colorado4Wheel
04-25-2011, 18:05
The Caliber conversion may be worth the money in your eyes, but not mine. You save absolutely no more time than the LnL.

Oh ya and modify and duplicated a press is a new concept...:dunno:

You do realize he is talking about a casefed machine and you have no experiance with a LnL and a casefeeder.:whistling:

IndyGunFreak
04-25-2011, 18:06
Yep, I prefer it. I much prefer the press not auto indexing after I put the bullet on the case. I got tired of the bullet failing over after it 1/2 indexed.

This is one thing, when I first saw how the LNL operated, that concerned me.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 18:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGchPV3MGKk&feature=related

I was talking about base model change over. Dillons tool heads are way to expensive.Plus with the LnL you can buy just the metering insert ( under 10 bucks ) and use the same powder measure.. And it takes less time to change over the Shell plate. Why don't we start adding all this time in to total production...:supergrin:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/userdocs/skus/p_749001290_1.jpg

GioaJack
04-25-2011, 18:26
Certainly glad I don't have a dog in this fight. Speaking of dogs... HEY! GET OFF MY OXYGEN HOSE! Stupid mutt. :fist:


Jack

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 18:32
It was probably a static electricity thing. Now that I have my press inside the apartment I may try it again.

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that there is some residual oil on it when new. I bet if you dusted it with a bit of powdered graphite, nothing would stick to it.

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 18:34
Certainly glad I don't have a dog in this fight. Speaking of dogs... HEY! GET OFF MY OXYGEN HOSE! Stupid mutt. :fist:


Jack

Jack, don't feel bad. I have a 650 with all the bells and whistles and I don't even understand half of what these guys are talking about. Hopefully it will never require any attention and I will never know what all these things are.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 18:35
The Caliber conversion may be worth the money in your eyes, but not mine. You save absolutely no more time than the LnL.

Oh ya and modify and duplicated a press is a new concept...:dunno:

You do realize he is talking about a casefed machine and you have no experiance with a LnL and a casefeeder.:whistling:

EL_NinO619 you base this on what experience, with either machine with a case feeder? I have loaded on the LNL (non case fed), you can clearly see the locator off the XL650 would in fact alleviate any issues C4W had and many others I would think.
Yet you state, buy the LNL take a dremel to it to permanently modify it to work like a and XL650??? Interesting :upeyes:

dudel
04-25-2011, 18:35
Blah, blah, blah. Here is the reality. I personally, would take a 550 over a LnL any day of the week and twice on the weekend. Others would do the exact opposite. Neither is right or wrong. I just prefer the 550. I got really tired of adjusting dies on the LnL. Every time I needed to adjust my flare die it would pop out and make it a PITA. I prefer the manual indexing to the auto indexing. Yep, I prefer it. I much prefer the press not auto indexing after I put the bullet on the case. I got tired of the bullet failing over after it 1/2 indexed. With the 550 at least my hand supported it so it didn't fall. The next guy may feel 100% different and that's OK. Everyone is different.

+1 What soured me on the LNL were those pictures of broken lugs on the bushings. What iced it were your problems with the primer.

550 works just fine for me. There are times I'd like a case feeder, but the 550 isn't designed for it. A 650 isn't worth the step up for me.

So..........

I spent the bucks (and more) on a suppressor for the M4. :supergrin: Bought it on Saturday, filed the forms today.

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 18:37
+1 What soured me on the LNL were those pictures of broken lugs on the bushings. What iced it were your problems with the primer.

550 works just fine for me. There are times I'd like a case feeder, but the 550 isn't designed for it. A 650 isn't worth the step up for me.

So..........

I spent the bucks (and more) on a suppressor for the M4. :supergrin: Bought it on Saturday, filed the forms today.

So much for the neighbors' cats...

dudel
04-25-2011, 18:39
So much for the neighbors' cats...

You mean the dogs. I like ***** (cats).

Now to work up a subsonic .223 that will cycle the action. Should be fun.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 18:52
My guess, and it is just a guess, is that there is some residual oil on it when new. I bet if you dusted it with a bit of powdered graphite, nothing would stick to it.

I cleaned it with alcohol before hand and made it a point not to touch the boot, so I don't know. :dunno:

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 18:59
I cleaned it with alcohol before hand and made it a point not to touch the boot, so I don't know. :dunno:

I figured as much, but it's pretty hard to get something 100% clean. Either way, graphite should work because it would be like flourering a cake pan. The reason the sticking probably went away is because the graphite in the powder coated the offending part.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 19:04
Okay!!! Dillon users do no homemade modifications? Can we talk about lose moral women, i feel like where politicians and Dillon owners are Libs. I'm never going to Win a argument with them..J/K You Stay in your Blue state Reloading room and we Well stay in our "correct" conservative, fiscal responsible letting grandma starve to death rich oil company backed Racist tea party mansions. Duh.. GOD BLESS AMERICA & GTR

WiskyT
04-25-2011, 19:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kWXyxOEbZ0&feature=related

:whistling:

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 19:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kWXyxOEbZ0&feature=related

:whistling:


Now where talking, Richard LEE is my Hero...:supergrin:

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 19:27
Okay!!! Dillon users do no homemade modifications? Can we talk about lose moral women, i feel like where politicians and Dillon owners are Libs. I'm never going to Win a argument with them..J/K You Stay in your Blue state Reloading room and we Well stay in our "correct" conservative, fiscal responsible letting grandma starve to death rich oil company backed Racist tea party mansions. Duh.. GOD BLESS AMERICA & GTR



You keep stating your right and everyone else is wrong but still have to give proof, either based on reality, facts or theory. :upeyes:
Adding a bearing to a shell plate to doesn't change the actual design all it does is enhance the smoothness of the action. You can take it off and it's back to stock.
What you suggested is a complete redesign, involving permanently changing the aspects of the machine. Very different.
I'll take the bearing off my XL650 shell plate put a stock detent spring and run it stock. It still won't change the fact that the LNL case feed slider is more susceptible to tipping case and that the ram doesn't provide as much leverage when loading.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 19:36
And you are not trying to force your right upon us, you evil commie..Really I'm over it. I could have a Gold plated LnL that gives you BJ's and does a Million rounds a hour and you would still tell me about Dillon and there damn Slide.You miss the playground or something..

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 19:46
It's a Joke don't get butt hurt..:rofl::rofl::rofl::supergrin::iloveyou:

StaTiK
04-25-2011, 19:51
I'll go on the record here and say further… If I was to be looking for a 5 station auto indexing NON- casefeed press the LNL would have been my choice and still may be in the future. IF Horandy fixes that primer leverage issue... my XL650 primes effortlessly, I couldn't imagine accepting anything less at this point.

People squirm whenever someone says it, but the 650 is probably a good auto index, 5 station, "non-casefed" machine too. You can manually load the tube and probably stay the same speed as the 550, or I've seen pics where Lee case tubes are attached to the existing (included) case inserter system.

I've read where people say that loading the tube manually is still pretty fast, but it gets tiresome and a casefeeder isn't much more expensive. I'd love to see a YT video of this. I check about once per week.

I think that you have to admit that the Lee system is pretty ingenious and that the shortcoming is with the case insertion... which the 650 excels at. I'm not saying this is ideal but if you want the option to add a case feeder in the future then this is an option, in my opinion.

-StaTiK-

PS: yes I am cheap, and yes I like to tinker. Unfortunately most replies simply say "650 w/o case feeder is silly, get a 550" without further discussion.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 20:10
And you are not trying to force your right upon us, you evil commie..Really I'm over it. I could have a Gold plated LnL that gives you BJ's and does a Million rounds a hour and you would still tell me about Dillon and there damn Slide.You miss the playground or something..

I'm not trying to force anything upon you... I'm stating the facts of the difference of designs. You have yet to come up with anything to negate what I stated, other than cost. Others than myself have already attested that the cost is justified if your talking casefeder machine choices. I understand you just don't get it, so I take no offense to your stance or means of justifying it.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 20:25
I will give you facts when I get,a casefeeder. And your facts are only "your facts" I have gave you facts that a lot of people would appreciate. You just seem to not be getting me. I keep talking about machines in the same ball park, like two beamers and you keep telling me about a lambo and its slide. And no matter what you say price plays a factor along with performance. But the driving I do everyday I dont need a lambo to get me there 100 mph faster. You are missing the point my friend..this all steamed from a guy asking lnl or 550. Two presses I'm guessing hes looking at because there in the same price range...and the ergo of the dillon does not come cheap, ask XD.. So it was fun and you have valid points and I,guess I don't so, whoever is in the market, watch the videos. See what your needs are, what suits you and again what you can comfortably afford, and not feel pressured to get something out of your means and needs...I still love my 2 lnl's and my cheap little Lee that everyone used to bag on me for recommending also.. But my Lee has gone and done more than a lot of you thought possible.

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 20:33
I will give you facts when I get,a casefeeder. And your facts are only "your facts" I have gave you facts that a lot of people would appreciate. You just seem to not be getting me. I keep talking about machines in the same ball park, like two beamers and you keep telling me about a lambo and its slide. And no matter what you say price plays a factor along with performance. But the driving I do everyday I dont need a lambo to get me there 100 mph faster. You are missing the point my friend..this all steamed from a guy asking lnl or 550. Two presses I'm guessing hes looking at because there in the same price range...and the ergo of the dillon does not come cheap, ask XD.. So it was fun and you have valid points and I,guess I don't so, whoever is in the market, watch the videos. See what your needs are, what suits you and again what you can comfortably afford, and not feel pressured to get something out of your means and needs...I still love my 2 lnl's and my cheap little Lee that everyone used to bag on me for recommending also.. But my Lee has gone and done more than a lot of you thought possible.


Again is this about price? Dude your the one that went off the beaten path of "Buy the LNL over the 550 now, it's cheaper, you get free bullets and later you can add a casefeeder and it will be as good as a XL650" C4W and myself already gave you the LNL over a 550 the LNL wins by a very slim margin, when talking no case feeder. With Casefeeder is the question here.... and the point that the thread has gone, by your doing. Look back and check to see how many have agreed your talking two different comparable here.
Get your casefeeder and show us how it's done... or are you gonna give us the "OH, I only load at a casual pace" argument? BTW my facts are based on designs and the math, disregarding the operator. Don't turn it into a your being biased personally accusation here.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 20:41
Dude i Don't see how that does not play a factor for you. I got a sweet 02 Civic i just painted Dillon Blue and put a brand new Chrome Children slide on the roof...For you 100,000.00 out the door. I will pay shipping..Good, ya sounds good..Thank you come again...

Okay anyone else want to know anything else or see another mute video about the LnL...

If price does not matter, why do you own a glock and not a Les Bauer...

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 21:08
Dude i Don't see how that does not play a factor for you. I got a sweet 02 Civic i just painted Dillon Blue and put a brand new Chrome Children slide on the roof...For you 100,000.00 out the door. I will pay shipping..Good, ya sounds good..Thank you come again...

Okay anyone else want to know anything else or see another mute video about the LnL...

If price does not matter, why do you own a glock and not a Les Bauer...

I own a Glock cause they are reliable and fit my needs, which is for high round counts in competition and training. I bought a Spartan over a Trojan cause the research showed for my particular needs that the extra $300 cost wasn't justified for a prettier finish. Though in a way at first I regretted that decision cause of the difference in feed ramps. I don't need a Les Bauer, in fact I have a $1200 EMP9 set-up in the safe just sitting there, that I am on the verge of selling/trading for a M&P15-22 that I could use.
I sold a Kimber Eclipse and a SDB to upgrade to a XL650, remember? I needed a press to significantly reduce the time that I had to spend loading my requirements. You at the time were the one looking to get a progressive press but because of your financial / employment situation at the time couldn't. The BL550 "Broke Loser" thread you started. :upeyes:
Why did you get a second LNL, cause you got a good deal right? Did you need it, no. However, your employed now so can afford it right?
If it could have been proven to me by experience and design that the LNL was just as good as a XL650 as a single caliber dedicated press. I would have bought one... ask Bob2233 I was on the verge. However it just didn't settle well for me that it would, so I didn't. I'm just stating the facts don't get all wound up on your justification on buying one and have zero argument other than a video of you loading when I bring up the facts regarding what I feel are the short comings of the LNL's design.

EL_NinO619
04-25-2011, 21:14
I bought both LnL's when I was employed, but thanks. I was going to go with a 550 but keep seeing little problems I did not like. Really I'm over this thread and will take some sound advice and stop before it goes any further..

Boxerglocker
04-25-2011, 21:30
I bought both LnL's when I was employed, but thanks. I was going to go with a 550 but keep seeing little problems I did not like. Really I'm over this thread and will take some sound advice and stop before it goes any further..

:agree:

dudel
04-26-2011, 02:14
It's a Joke don't get butt hurt..:rofl::rofl::rofl::supergrin::iloveyou:

The only thing faster than a LNL is nino getting his panties in a twist when someone doesn't love his LNL. :rofl:

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 04:15
The only thing faster than a LNL is nino getting his panties in a twist when someone doesn't love his LNL. :rofl:

Okay.......

Flipz
04-26-2011, 08:58
EL_NinO619 you base this on what experience, with either machine with a case feeder? I have loaded on the LNL (non case fed), you can clearly see the locator off the XL650 would in fact alleviate any issues C4W had and many others I would think.
Yet you state, buy the LNL take a dremel to it to permanently modify it to work like a and XL650??? Interesting :upeyes:

Boxer,

This sums it up for me. You keep saying things are facts and this and that about the LnL with a casefeeder, but you even admit youve never loaded with one. Just about everything youre saying is hearsay in regards to the LnL. You have no first hand experience with what youre talking about in regards to the LnL. Yet you think its ok to say these thoughts of yours are facts, I dont think so.

Most of what your saying youre taking directly from C4W and the issues he had with his LnL. And I think all of us can say that C4W unfortunately got a lemon. Us LnL owners can say that for sure. Why, you ask? Because we actually own the product, unlike you, and havent experienced the issues he had. I for one, have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder in both 9mm and .45acp. I had no problems. There were no special fixes or modifications done to the machine. In fact, it was over the first weekend my friend got it. It was easy to setup, required a little bit of normal adjustments to get the casefeeder setup properly, and it worked great from the get go. This is what solidified my choice on getting the LnL. When I got it I didnt have the money for a casefeeder but knew that I didnt really need one. Ive since decided that when I have some extra funds I'll be picking up a casefeeder for it.

If you just want to back C4W up then go ahead. We all do. He got a frickin lemon and it sucks! And Hornady is writing him a check because of it. But not every LnL that leaves Hornady is a lemon. Just like not every 550 or 650 that leaves Dillon is perfection. Until you have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder you should stop saying things are facts regarding it. You dont have the experience with the LnL to say so. I wouldnt go around saying things about the 550. Why? Because I dont have the necessary amount of experience with it to make a fair and unbiased judgement.

One of the reasons this Red vs. Blue discussion will never end is because both manufacturers make a quality product. Neither of them is perfect. Perfection is impossible. But what makes these discussion almost intolerable is that so many people with absolutely no quality experience with a product thinks its ok to go around saying certain things are facts when theyre not. Stick to what you know. And leave the rest to the others that know what you know not.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 09:56
Boxer,

This sums it up for me. You keep saying things are facts and this and that about the LnL with a casefeeder, but you even admit youve never loaded with one. Just about everything youre saying is hearsay in regards to the LnL. You have no first hand experience with what youre talking about in regards to the LnL. Yet you think its ok to say these thoughts of yours are facts, I dont think so.

Most of what your saying youre taking directly from C4W and the issues he had with his LnL. And I think all of us can say that C4W unfortunately got a lemon. Us LnL owners can say that for sure. Why, you ask? Because we actually own the product, unlike you, and havent experienced the issues he had. I for one, have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder in both 9mm and .45acp. I had no problems. There were no special fixes or modifications done to the machine. In fact, it was over the first weekend my friend got it. It was easy to setup, required a little bit of normal adjustments to get the casefeeder setup properly, and it worked great from the get go.

If you just want to back C4W up then go ahead. We all do. He got a frickin lemon and it sucks! And Hornady is writing him a check because of it. But not every LnL that leaves Hornady is a lemon. Just like not every 550 or 650 that leaves Dillon is perfection. Until you have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder you should stop saying things are facts regarding it. You dont have the experience with the LnL to say so. I wouldnt go around saying things about the 550. Why? Because I dont have the necessary amount of experience with it to make a fair and unbiased judgement.

One of the reasons this Red vs. Blue discussion will never end is because both manufacturers make a quality product. Neither of them is perfect. Perfection is impossible. But what makes these discussion almost intolerable is that so many people with absolutely no quality experience with a product thinks its ok to go around saying certain things are facts when theyre not. Stick to what you know. And leave the rest to the others that know what you know not.

Look let's get it straight... I clearly stated that my particular choice was/is based on facts regarding the differences in design. All of which have been documented not just by C4W and others both here and in other forums.
I find that the universal case feed slider on the LNL is flawed cause it's not railed. The Dillon locater justifies that extra cost of the caliber conversion, what wrong with that?
No, I don't believe neither press is absolutely perfect. Though, I do believe that diiference alone is/was a paramount deal breaker in my choice. Because off my needs for a maximum potential case fed machine. The facts that C4W uncovered in his quest to find the answer for his issues on his press, such as the leverage issues with the primer ram and what was previously unknown to me brought up that the ram is hollow (stated by a Fred's machinist friend as driving him nuts cause of the torque issue) simply added to the pros/cons in my book. I myself made the observation regarding the LNL casefeeder unit being louder and having only one speed. Jack believes it to be not big deal (cause he admittedly is deaf) but made the observation in comparison to the dillion runs faster. For you any or all of these things it may be "so what?", for me it's a difference.
The LNL has a better designed primer disposal system (something others have copied via mods) and the primer ski ramp issue can be a pain in the ass. I've solve those issues with a peice of aluminum tape and plastic tube. To me those are "so what?" issues cause they do not affect the way the press actually operates and thus will not affect either the quality or the quanity of the ammo produced.
I am sure neither of us would buy a new production car without doing the research would we? To me the comparsion is clear that the 550/LNL shouldn't be used if you intend to eventually get a case feeder without knowing these facts regarding the designs. Therefore the "buy an LNL, it's cheaper, your get free bullets and can get a casefeeder later" shouldn't come into play and frankly it pisses me off :steamed: The potentials between casesfed XL650's and the LNL's based on design and thier pitfalls are clear and everyone here in a forum debating the choice should be informed.
Not trying to be rude or intentionally disrespectful here simply stating it how I see it. I'm just as entitled as you are to state my views. If you take offense to what I have to say about it. Feel free to to put me on your ignore list. What I'd rather see thought is a proof such as a video with you loading 400 rounds with your case fed LNL, at it's maximum potential and prove to me that indeed maybe I spent too much on the XL650 and made the wrong choice by design / reputation.

Respectfully,

Boxer

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 10:00
Boxer,

This sums it up for me. You keep saying things are facts and this and that about the LnL with a casefeeder, but you even admit youve never loaded with one. Just about everything youre saying is hearsay in regards to the LnL. You have no first hand experience with what youre talking about in regards to the LnL. Yet you think its ok to say these thoughts of yours are facts, I dont think so.

Most of what your saying youre taking directly from C4W and the issues he had with his LnL. And I think all of us can say that C4W unfortunately got a lemon. Us LnL owners can say that for sure. Why, you ask? Because we actually own the product, unlike you, and havent experienced the issues he had. I for one, have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder in both 9mm and .45acp. I had no problems. There were no special fixes or modifications done to the machine. In fact, it was over the first weekend my friend got it. It was easy to setup, required a little bit of normal adjustments to get the casefeeder setup properly, and it worked great from the get go.

If you just want to back C4W up then go ahead. We all do. He got a frickin lemon and it sucks! And Hornady is writing him a check because of it. But not every LnL that leaves Hornady is a lemon. Just like not every 550 or 650 that leaves Dillon is perfection. Until you have loaded on an LnL with a casefeeder you should stop saying things are facts regarding it. You dont have the experience with the LnL to say so. I wouldnt go around saying things about the 550. Why? Because I dont have the necessary amount of experience with it to make a fair and unbiased judgement.

One of the reasons this Red vs. Blue discussion will never end is because both manufacturers make a quality product. Neither of them is perfect. Perfection is impossible. But what makes these discussion almost intolerable is that so many people with absolutely no quality experience with a product thinks its ok to go around saying certain things are facts when theyre not. Stick to what you know. And leave the rest to the others that know what you know not. I wonder if Dillon is so free of inherent defects? Or flaws in the system. Why are there after market places selling parts to make the Dillon 550/650 operate right? Such as the case power spill issue. I'm not saying Dillon is garbage. It is a great machine. I'm just saying between these 2 presses, there will be Users that have issues. Issues others may never encounter. Personally I really like my Hornady. Other than the frustration of often finding retailers across the board ( ( OUT OF STOCK ) . Very Frustrating. Such is the current problem. I don't know if I'll have a Case feed issue with my LNL. Until I find one in stock somewhere. Although that tells me the Hornady LNL Casefeeders are very popular. Apparently C4W was swayed the way of Hornady. A lemon indeed. I am anxious to read his review of the new 650 he purchased. It's actually the main reason I joined the forum.

I'd also like to ad. I've read 500 or more Red vs Blue Threads. I've yet to read one that really told me anything. Other than most opinions seem to be based on the side of which product they purchased.

My neighbor bought a Ford Truck 2 years ago. Nothing but problems. He changed from GM. Obviously he thinks Fords suck. He originally bought the Ford based on my GM issues over the years. I just purchased my 2nd Ford Truck. After 20 plus years of driving GM's. I'd never go back to GM. IMO Ford is a better Truck by far. This Ford vs GM issue is older than Red vs Blue. Although again. It's a battle of opinions based on personal experience. With some cases being what was read or heard.

If we all wanted the same thing. Just imagine how expensive it would be. And boring. I just think it's silly how upset some seem to get. Probably because we all like to be right. Yet only a select few always are. :) Right that is.

Flipz
04-26-2011, 10:30
Not trying to be rude or intentionally disrespectful here simply stating it how I see it. I'm just as entitled as you are to state my views. If you take offense to what I have to say about it. Feel free to to put me on your ignore list. What I'd rather see thought is a proof such as a video with you loading 400 rounds with your case fed LNL, at it's maximum potential and prove to me that indeed maybe I spent too much on the XL650 and made the wrong choice by design / reputation.

Respectfully,

Boxer

I dont take your reply as being rude and I meant no disrespect with my post. Im just stating my views. When stating yours you have called them "facts". Thats the difference and the point I was making. They are not facts, they are your opinions.

Also, there are a number of videos of a casefed LnL loading 400+ rounds an hour. Even the Ultimate Reloaders videos show this. And they are purposefully done at a slow pace to show the workings of the press. There is your proof. Watch the videos again and do the math. They prove exactly what you were asking for proof of.

Heres another video. It shows a guy loading on an LnL with a casefeeder and bullet feeder. He's completing a finished round every 3 seconds. Thats a pace of 1200 rounds an hour. Since your main concern is the casefeeder then just forget about the bullet feeder. The casefeeder is loading an empty case fast enough to complete 1200 rounds a hour. Is that not proof enough for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNxbBSOyKU

It seems like no matter how much proof we show you, you wont accept it. For someone the doesnt even own the press in question it makes many of us think that youre just defending youre own purchase of the blue. And thats fine. But when you ask for proof and someone gives you undeniable proof you cant just discard it and say its not good enough.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 11:00
I'd also like to ad. I've read 500 or more Red vs Blue Threads. I've yet to read one that really told me anything. Other than most opinions seem to be based on the side of which product they purchased.


Alright you asked so here you go. I will post pictures later to prove these things but for now I will just give the text in brief.

1) 650 is designed from the start to be a casefeed machine. LnL is not
2) 650 casefeeder drops the case about 3 inch's, LnL drop the case about 7". This can cause the case to go sideways a bit and sometimes drop off the slider ramp.
3) LnL does nothing to support the case while it travels to the shellplate. It has to travel over the spring on it's way as well. A case that is slightly off center at the start can be pushed off the ramp, or not completely into the shellplate.
4) 650 captures the case in a channel on the way to the shellplate. It can go no place but into the shellplate because of how it is captured in the by the rim.
5) 650 has a much bigger ball that helps center the shellplate. LnL has two very small balls. They do not start falling into the hole nearly as soon as the one on the Dillons. This makes indexing more postive on the Dillon.
6) 650 has a bunch of special caliber specific parts to help maintian reliability with each caliber.
7) 650/550 have a channel for Primer Flow so the cases are sliding on the rim not the primer.
8) LnL only has two drop tube sizes. 650 is caliber specific for each caliber.



1) LnL has a much bigger shellplate.
2) LnL has better access to a case anyplace on the shellplate.
3) Dillon toolhead is a little cramped compared to the LnL.
4) LnL has a cheaper price and cheaper conversions (Because it's missing all the parts the 650 has designed into it for reliability).


That's just off the top of my head, in about 2 mins. The design differences are pretty dramatic if you just open your eyes and look.

I went into the LnL with a positive attitude. Perhaps I got a lemon. I am not the only person to have the issues I describe. Not by a long shot. I don't get why I was having priming issue. But if you throw that out and pretend I was having no priming issue it's still clear to me the 650 is a better designed press for someone who wants a "Production Machine".

If you doubt what I say just go to the Ultimate Reloader website. Watch his video of him loading 9mm on the LnL and even the .45. You will see each case drop and sometimes bounce a little off and tilt a little before righting itself. Near the end of his 9mm video you see a case nearly do what I had occasional issues with my 9mm cases doing. He only shows the press loading for a short period of time.

It's at 6:17 on his video #2 of the LnL 9mm.

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 11:29
CW4: I wasn't doubting you it the least bit. From what I read in this forum so far. You are quite knowledgeable about reloading and Dillon Presses in particular. I'm asking the questions because I truly want to make a decision based on being well informed. I appreciate you taking the time. I hope you follow through and elaborate further.

Let me ask if you have purchased parts from either of these places:

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1333

http://www.hitfactorshooting.com/products/products.html


I am wondering if either of these sites supply a product that would be a valid improvement of the stock Dillon part.

1) LnL has a much bigger shellplate.
2) LnL has better access to a case anyplace on the shellplate.
3) Dillon toolhead is a little cramped compared to the LnL. This would make non use of a case feeder an easier unit to insert cases by hand?

Looking forward to your future posts. Thanks

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 13:42
I dont take your reply as being rude and I meant no disrespect with my post. Im just stating my views. When stating yours you have called them "facts". Thats the difference and the point I was making. They are not facts, they are your opinions.

Also, there are a number of videos of a casefed LnL loading 400+ rounds an hour.Even the Ultimate Reloaders videos show this. And they are purposefully done at a slow pace to show the workings of the press. There is your proof. Watch the videos again and do the math. They prove exactly what you were asking for proof of.

Heres another video. It shows a guy loading on an LnL with a casefeeder and bullet feeder. He's completing a finished round every 3 seconds. Thats a pace of 1200 rounds an hour. Since your main concern is the casefeeder then just forget about the bullet feeder. The casefeeder is loading an empty case fast enough to complete 1200 rounds a hour. Is that not proof enough for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNxbBSOyKU

It seems like no matter how much proof we show you, you wont accept it. For someone the doesnt even own the press in question it makes many of us think that youre just defending youre own purchase of the blue. And thats fine. But when you ask for proof and someone gives you undeniable proof you cant just discard it and say its not good enough.

I ain't denying anything regarding my purchase other than I wish I had the money to get the 1050 :rofl:

regarding the very few videos you can search on the net of a casefed LNL. Yes, I have looked.Your video of the guy with the bullet feeder loaded what 5 rounds? 400+ an hour casefed? What is the LNL rated at? The Dillon 800-1000 an hour. My personal best is just over an hour for 1000. 400 is an easy 26-27 minutes. Provided a crimped case doesn't get past me at the hopper feeder sort. It's been pretty much smooth sailing. As for UR he's a local PNW, I seen him and discussed presses in person. He may not remember me by face but we have talked and I'm very aware of his videos and asked questions.
Once again your missing my point.... but I guess you will never get it unless you have the loading requirements I have. Want to breeze through 500 rounds well inside an hour. That's from set-up, primer filling tubes, to powdercheck and get er done.
Undeniable proof to me is someone with credibility that has done it and not just says it can be done... I can/have loaded 800 on a XL650 in an hour.
Like I said, in my observations regarding the design of the LNL is it has drawbacks compared to the XL650. I dont think it can do it. When C4W, Shotgun, Fred, Bob2233, Mike Hart, Jack or even El-Nino say that they have done it. That they can/have loaded on it at the sustained rate equal to a Dillon and it has produced reliably without the hiccups mentioned. I'll take a closer look.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 13:45
Alright you asked so here you go. I will post pictures later to prove these things but for now I will just give the text in brief.

1) 650 is designed from the start to be a casefeed machine. LnL is not
2) 650 casefeeder drops the case about 3 inch's, LnL drop the case about 7". This can cause the case to go sideways a bit and sometimes drop off the slider ramp.
3) LnL does nothing to support the case while it travels to the shellplate. It has to travel over the spring on it's way as well. A case that is slightly off center at the start can be pushed off the ramp, or not completely into the shellplate.
4) 650 captures the case in a channel on the way to the shellplate. It can go no place but into the shellplate because of how it is captured in the by the rim.
5) 650 has a much bigger ball that helps center the shellplate. LnL has two very small balls. They do not start falling into the hole nearly as soon as the one on the Dillons. This makes indexing more postive on the Dillon.
6) 650 has a bunch of special caliber specific parts to help maintian reliability with each caliber.
7) 650/550 have a channel for Primer Flow so the cases are sliding on the rim not the primer.
8) LnL only has two drop tube sizes. 650 is caliber specific for each caliber.



1) LnL has a much bigger shellplate.
2) LnL has better access to a case anyplace on the shellplate.
3) Dillon toolhead is a little cramped compared to the LnL.
4) LnL has a cheaper price and cheaper conversions (Because it's missing all the parts the 650 has designed into it for reliability).


That's just off the top of my head, in about 2 mins. The design differences are pretty dramatic if you just open your eyes and look.

I went into the LnL with a positive attitude. Perhaps I got a lemon. I am not the only person to have the issues I describe. Not by a long shot. I don't get why I was having priming issue. But if you throw that out and pretend I was having no priming issue it's still clear to me the 650 is a better designed press for someone who wants a "Production Machine".

If you doubt what I say just go to the Ultimate Reloader website. Watch his video of him loading 9mm on the LnL and even the .45. You will see each case drop and sometimes bounce a little off and tilt a little before righting itself. Near the end of his 9mm video you see a case nearly do what I had occasional issues with my 9mm cases doing. He only shows the press loading for a short period of time.

It's at 6:17 on his video #2 of the LnL 9mm.

:goodpost: Sums it up nicely Steve.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 14:05
CW4: I wasn't doubting you it the least bit. From what I read in this forum so far. You are quite knowledgeable about reloading and Dillon Presses in particular. I'm asking the questions because I truly want to make a decision based on being well informed. I appreciate you taking the time. I hope you follow through and elaborate further.

Let me ask if you have purchased parts from either of these places:

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1333

http://www.hitfactorshooting.com/products/products.html


I am wondering if either of these sites supply a product that would be a valid improvement of the stock Dillon part.

This would make non use of a case feeder an easier unit to insert cases by hand?

Looking forward to your future posts. Thanks

BoxerGlock gave me a free roller bearing kit. You can get the parts a McMaster Carr. I am sure he would help you get the right stuff.

I got a Micrometer from Unique Tek. Good product. I PERSONALLY would use JB Weld over the liquid sealer stuff he gives you for the instal. It's a lot easier to get the right amount and not worry about getting too much and having it run and ruin the nice part he just sent you.

BTW, you don't need any of those things. It indexed fine with the stock setup. Roller I have not used yet.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 14:22
Don't for a second think you need all the Dillon Stuff. You don't. Handle height for the LnL and the 650/550 are essentially the same. So if your fine pulling the handle on the LnL on that bench you will be fine doing that with the 650/550/SDB. You can easily build a bench at 47" or so inch's and never miss the strong mount setup. Strong mount is nice if you bench is 38-42" (many are). Everyone seems to go crazy order the Dillon and all it's neat extras. You just don't need them.

Flipz
04-26-2011, 15:11
I ain't denying anything regarding my purchase other than I wish I had the money to get the 1050 :rofl:

regarding the very few videos you can search on the net of a casefed LNL. Yes, I have looked.Your video of the guy with the bullet feeder loaded what 5 rounds? 400+ an hour casefed? What is the LNL rated at? The Dillon 800-1000 an hour. My personal best is just over an hour for 1000. 400 is an easy 26-27 minutes. Provided a crimped case doesn't get past me at the hopper feeder sort. It's been pretty much smooth sailing. As for UR he's a local PNW, I seen him and discussed presses in person. He may not remember me by face but we have talked and I'm very aware of his videos and asked questions.
Once again your missing my point.... but I guess you will never get it unless you have the loading requirements I have. Want to breeze through 500 rounds well inside an hour. That's from set-up, primer filling tubes, to powdercheck and get er done.
Undeniable proof to me is someone with credibility that has done it and not just says it can be done... I can/have loaded 800 on a XL650 in an hour.
Like I said, in my observations regarding the design of the LNL is it has drawbacks compared to the XL650. I dont think it can do it. When C4W, Shotgun, Fred, Bob2233, Mike Hart, Jack or even El-Nino say that they have done it. That they can/have loaded on it at the sustained rate equal to a Dillon and it has produced reliably without the hiccups mentioned. I'll take a closer look.

As stated in an earlier post in this thread I have done it on a friends LnL that has a casefeeder. We were doing around 600 rounds an hour at a relaxed pace. Let me guess what youre gonna say now, "Yea, but youre not a credible source". Give me a frickin brake. You wouldnt believe it if Joyce or Steve Hornady told you themselves. Just admit it already, you simply dont want to admit that another manufacturer can keep up with the 650.

The guy who made that short video just made it to show people what his press can do. He didnt make it to prove anything to you. Now you say he's not credible either? He was loading a finished round every 3 seconds. Are you saying that he wasnt? Did you see any problems while he was loading? Cause I sure didnt. Maybe what I saw in that video was an elaborate hoax. I think not.

You seem to have no problem bashing a product that with all respect you have no experience with. Thats just not right. People that have actually had experience with the LnL and casefeeder, unlike you, are for some reason not to be trusted? Oh thats right, theyre only not to be trusted if theyve had a "good" experience. Doesnt seem to make sense now does it.

Dillon makes great presses. But some of you Dillon guys need to get off your high horses and realize that there are other, equal, products out there.

C4W,
Im extremely sorry you had a bad experience with the LnL. I really am. I truely believe you got a lemon and that frickin sucks big time. If I were in your shoes Id be pissed too. Theres no dought about that.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 15:23
As stated in an earlier post in this thread I have done it on a friends LnL that has a casefeeder. We were doing around 600 rounds an hour at a relaxed pace. Let me guees what youre gonna say now, "Yea, but youre not a credible source". Give me a frickin brake. You wouldnt believe it if Joyce or Steve Hornady told you themselves. Just admit it already, you simply dont want to admit that another manuacturer can keep up with the 650.

The guy who made that short video just made it to show people what his press can do. Now you say he's not credible either? He was loading a finished round every 3 seconds. Are you saying that he wasnt? Did you see any problems while he was loading? Cause I sure didnt.

You seem to have no problem bashing a product that with all respect you have no experience with. Thats just not right.

Dillon makes great presses. But some of you Dillon guys need to get off your high horses and realize that there are other, equal, products out there.

What caliber? Do you ever have cases fail to go in the shell plate? Ever have cases fall off the slider? Ever have cases go in upside down in the chute? Is the press stock or did you modify it to make it more reliable for these issues?

No mechanical device is perfect. I have just found the Dillon to be better out the gate with out having to re-engineer it in some fashion. Not saying things are perfect. For instance my 650 came missing a part. Stuff happens. We are just talking about a mater of degree I think.

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 15:33
Are you guys saying if one can afford to. Get the 1050 AND forget the others. I only reload handgun at this stage. I figured with the case trimmer and extra work you have to put into rifle reloading. It's not worth it. I mean from a time stand-point . I enjoy shooting to much. Every now and again. I read where someone shoots to reload. I don't want to ever get to where I'd rather load than shoot. I suppose I could stock pile for the war of wars. Except I won't be here anyway.

I did figure out a 650 with CF and suggested items plus one caliber change and was up to near 1400.00. So what's a few hundred more to have the best. Caliber changes you just add a few as you need them.

C4W : I'd be interested to see the list of items you purchased when buying your 650.00. May I ask what Dealer you used?

XDRoX
04-26-2011, 15:39
Are you guys saying if one can afford to. Get the 1050 AND forget the others. I only reload handgun at this stage. I figured with the case trimmer and extra work you have to put into rifle reloading. It's not worth it. I mean from a time stand-point . I enjoy shooting to much. Every now and again. I read where someone shoots to reload. I don't want to ever get to where I'd rather load than shoot. I suppose I could stock pile for the war of wars. Except I won't be here anyway.

I did figure out a 650 with CF and suggested items plus one caliber change and was up to near 1400.00. So what's a few hundred more to have the best. Caliber changes you just add a few as you need them.

If you have the money and only load one caliber and want the best, I'd get the 1050. I would love to be able to swage on the press and prime on the down stroke. Plus I'd put a case trimmer and a powder check die in it.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 15:49
C4W : I'd be interested to see the list of items you purchased when buying your 650.00. May I ask what Dealer you used?

Build you bench at the height you don't need the strong mount. Then buy the press and casefeeder. Your done. I added a roller handle. I don't know why, I had one on my 550. I liked it. I replaced it on my 550 with a Pool Ball handle (and liked it). So I don't know why I got another roller. Besides that I would get the spare parts kit. Not needed at all but if you hate down time it's nice. I assume you have dies. People seem to over buy with the Dillon Products.
I bought my 650 from Hozer. He is a dealer but does not make a big deal about it.

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 15:58
Originally Posted by Flipz
As stated in an earlier post in this thread I have done it on a friends LnL that has a casefeeder. We were doing around 600 rounds an hour at a relaxed pace. Let me guees what youre gonna say now, "Yea, but youre not a credible source". Give me a frickin brake. You wouldnt believe it if Joyce or Steve Hornady told you themselves. Just admit it already, you simply dont want to admit that another manuacturer can keep up with the 650.

The guy who made that short video just made it to show people what his press can do. Now you say he's not credible either? He was loading a finished round every 3 seconds. Are you saying that he wasnt? Did you see any problems while he was loading? Cause I sure didnt.

You seem to have no problem bashing a product that with all respect you have no experience with. Thats just not right.

Dillon makes great presses. But some of you Dillon guys need to get off your high horses and realize that there are other, equal, products out there. I have seen folks argue this point back and forth to a point of being banned from forums. He's not going to agree with you because he thinks he is smarter and knows more. Plus he knows how strongly you feel. He's just not a guy that's going to give you that satifation. Nothing right or wrong with that. You maybe feel the same about him. Personally I just want nice equipment that I can reload quickly with.

Eventually I will buy a Dillon to go with my LNL. Maybe even the 1050. Just for bragging rights :) jk. I just don't see how production rates of any kind done on a video validate anything. From either company. Even if they do it's always going to be an argument that rivals the Hatfield's and McCoy's.

Mindless chatter: I have no doubt Dillon has a tad better quality control. I also have no doubt they will never be as big as Hornady. Or as diversified. What bothers me about these arguments the most. If you go through Archives of threads. You'll find the same things said over and over again. I'd much rather see a thread that shows the flaws of each machine. Along with what to do to fix them. Some information I can use to make my reloading time more profitable.

When I tell C4W I'd like his opinions I mean it. Not for argument ammunition. I want it to gain something with regard to reloading.

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 16:13
This is a joke...

How do you say the LnL is nor designed for a case feeder. They just put all the parts to install one incase someone wants to buy a dillon case feeder..you guys are starting to scare me and should put in a app for a job at dillon, or atleast ask for some money for all the work you do. You sond like the people who just recently bought something and now live to tell others how wrong they are for buyimg another product.. Holy **** man what has Dillon done to you..I really hope someone does not come out with a new and improved press thats blows both of the lnl and dillons out the water, or you guys will have to spend all your money on therapy and not components.

How come no ones a fan of RCBS?

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 16:26
How come no ones a fan of RCBS? Not enough drama. Hornady and Dillon is the war between. The Little Guy and Big Corporate Guys. Keep in mind if someone from one camp agrees with another camp to much. Soon there won't be enough to argue about. I read the forum rules about Politics. It doesn't apply here. Even though it does. Your not going to win. Even if your right. No sense to get riled up. That just fuels the fire.

However I think what C4W meant was Hornady didn't originally design the LNL for a Casefeeder. They made the casefeeder around the press. The LNL has been around awhile and case feeders for them are newer. Dillon made their 650 and 1050 around the case feeder. Doesn't mean anything.. Dillon has had casefeeders for a long time.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 17:02
As stated in an earlier post in this thread I have done it on a friends LnL that has a casefeeder. We were doing around 600 rounds an hour at a relaxed pace. Let me guess what youre gonna say now, "Yea, but youre not a credible source". Give me a frickin brake. You wouldnt believe it if Joyce or Steve Hornady told you themselves. Just admit it already, you simply dont want to admit that another manufacturer can keep up with the 650.

The guy who made that short video just made it to show people what his press can do. He didnt make it to prove anything to you. Now you say he's not credible either? He was loading a finished round every 3 seconds. Are you saying that he wasnt? Did you see any problems while he was loading? Cause I sure didnt. Maybe what I saw in that video was an elaborate hoax. I think not.

You seem to have no problem bashing a product that with all respect you have no experience with. Thats just not right. People that have actually had experience with the LnL and casefeeder, unlike you, are for some reason not to be trusted? Oh thats right, theyre only not to be trusted if theyve had a "good" experience. Doesnt seem to make sense now does it.

Dillon makes great presses. But some of you Dillon guys need to get off your high horses and realize that there are other, equal, products out there.

C4W,
Im extremely sorry you had a bad experience with the LnL. I really am. I truely believe you got a lemon and that frickin sucks big time. If I were in your shoes Id be pissed too. Theres no dought about that.

Now your putting words in my mouth and clearly not getting my point at all. I don't need to have even touched the press to make the educated assumption that the XL650 case feed locator is better by design. I'm not an idiot, I have a 2 aerospace mechanical engineering degrees and my opinion based on my years of mechanical experience. IMO it's better not because it is LESS SUSCEPTIBLE to case tipping particularly with narrower cases such as 9mm and .223, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE because it's RAILED for petes' sake! Don't you get it? Think of a roller coaster on a metal tubing track, would you be trusting enough to ride in the over head loop if the wheels were not caged? Do you know what that means?

Look at this video as an example. I deprimed, sized and trimmed 700 5.56 cases this morning in 25 minutes the same way, look at the pace that can be accomplished with XL650
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLyK1UwuK3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Do you really thing by the design the LNL could handle that pace on it's casefeed V-block on a open slide and not have any .223 shells tip over? On a XL650 they CAN'T tip over by design.

No, actually you are a credible source. I take your testimented experience that you loaded at a 600 round pace with case feeder a few times, by your word. Let me ask though, have you ever loaded 800 rounds an hour on a Case fed XL650??? If not what's your basis for comparison that not having the station 1 locator on a LNL is just as good? I loaded 400 more rounds this morning of 9mm in 30 minutes (4th time in 6 days) before converting over to trim the cases. Again, as I stated earlier 600 is not the same as 800. C4W can load 500 plus on a 550b in an hour, I could do the same on a SDB. We have yet to have a single person chime in that they actually loaded on a LNL at a pace of 800/hr, repeatedly and consistently producing quality ammo that would suffice both mine and C4W's loading requirements.

I don't understand why anyone is getting their panties in a wad over my assessment of the design. I'm just being honest. Look at my previous posts and/or ask C4W how in many a posts did I question the reliability of it. Loooong before I bought the XL650 and was talking to Bob2233 via PM about possibly going with a LNL. I researched in long and hard cause I wanted/needed to get my time behind a bench to the minimum debated the choice of LNL/XL650 myself. I stated it back then that I had reservations of the case feeder design and C4W proved that to be a issue, which would definitely be an issue for me as I load primarily only Glock fired 9mm. In addition there are at least half a dozen others that have posted on Enos most of them chiming in on Steve's posts saying the same thing. They gave up on the LNL because of most of the reasons C4W has already outlined.

Flipz
04-26-2011, 17:08
What caliber? Do you ever have cases fail to go in the shell plate? Ever have cases fall off the slider? Ever have cases go in upside down in the chute? Is the press stock or did you modify it to make it more reliable for these issues?

No mechanical device is perfect. I have just found the Dillon to be better out the gate with out having to re-engineer it in some fashion. Not saying things are perfect. For instance my 650 came missing a part. Stuff happens. We are just talking about a mater of degree I think.


First let me remind you that this was on my friends LnL. I do not have a casefeeder on mine.

9mm once fired Glock brass from my G34 and my friends G19. Didnt have any cases fall off the slider. I think we had 2 or 3 end up upside down in the chute over 1000 rounds. No modifications to the press. It was the very first weekend my friend had the press. It ran like a top not counting the 2 or 3 flipped cases. Getting everything setup was pretty easy. There was the normal amount of fine tuning to get things running. But once it was setup it didnt need any further tuning.

I know it would sound hard to believe if I were standing in your shoes given the bad experience you had, but the thing ran great. And has run great since. That one session is what made my decision for me on what first press to get. If it didnt impress me I would have gotten the 550. I had loaded on a 550 a few times before. Its a great press. The LnL just had more of the features I was looking for.

I dont regret my decision one bit. My LnL has been flawless. The only 2 issues Ive ever had with it were a broken retaining spring (Hornady sent me 3 free of charge), which was my fault. And that CCI LPP's require a little more effort to seat. But they still do seat and function 100% with a minor amount of additional effort. We're not talking about herculian strength. Just a little added force.

In regards to your LnL. I honestly think you had a flawed sub-plate. Whether it was warped or not machined correctly, something was definitley wrong with your press. And that frickin sucks! Glad to see that Hornady is refunding your money. I would have demanded it.

No one will ever win this arguement, thats one thing we can all agree on Im sure. What bothered me was that Boxer wasnt even speaking from personal experience. He was just qouting hearsay as fact. Which is just wrong. IMO any of the info he got from you and your bad experience doesnt include all LNL's. You got a lemon. It would be unfair to lump all LNL's in the same boat as yours.

Ive read of people having problems with LNL's before this isnt the first time. One person on here was having problems with the PTX Expanders. He posted pics on here and the problem was obvious. He didnt have it setup correctly. Ofcourse youre gonna have problems with something thats not setup correctly. I posted pics for him on how to properly set it up and never heard anything about it since.

Now Im not saying you didnt have your LNL setup correctly. Ive seen the photos you posted and something was definitley wrong with the press when it left the factory. It was a lemon.

Im done with this. Casesensitive is right. Blue vs. Red, we're like the Bloods and the Crips, we wont agree. But IMO both Dillon and Hornady make fine presses. Id be happy owning either one.

Flipz
04-26-2011, 17:14
However I think what C4W meant was Hornady didn't originally design the LNL for a Casefeeder. They made the casefeeder around the press. The LNL has been around awhile and case feeders for them are newer. Dillon made their 650 and 1050 around the case feeder. Doesn't mean anything.. Dillon has had casefeeders for a long time.

True. The LNL was not originally designed with a casefeeder in mind. Older models dont even have the holes for one to be mounted on the frame.

casesensitive
04-26-2011, 17:18
I have a 2 aerospace mechanical engineering degrees and my opinion based on my years of mechanical experience. That says it all. Why didn't you say that in the first place. Guess I'll just go crawl back in my hole. Makes my 5 years in newspaper aeronautics sorta worthless.

If you don't mind I'll wait to see what C4W has to say. He's owned both.

Flipz
04-26-2011, 17:28
Now your putting words in my mouth and clearly not getting my point at all. I don't need to have even touched the press to make the educated assumption that the XL650 case feed locator is better by design. I'm not an idiot, I have a 2 aerospace mechanical engineering degrees and my opinion based on my years of mechanical experience. IMO it's better not because it is LESS SUSCEPTIBLE to case tipping particularly with narrower cases such as 9mm and .223, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE because it's RAILED for petes' sake! Don't you get it? Think of a roller coaster on a metal tubing track, would you be trusting enough to ride in the over head loop if the wheels were not caged? Do you know what that means?

Look at this video as an example. I deprimed, sized and trimmed 700 5.56 cases this morning in 25 minutes the same way, look at the pace that can be accomplished with XL650
<IFRAME title="YouTube video player" height=349 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLyK1UwuK3M" frameBorder=0 width=425 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>
Do you really thing by the design the LNL could handle that pace on it's casefeed V-block on a open slide and not have any .223 shells tip over? On a XL650 they CAN'T tip over by design.

No, actually you are a credible source. I take your testimented experience that you loaded at a 600 round pace with case feeder a few times, by your word. Let me ask though, have you ever loaded 800 rounds an hour on a Case fed XL650??? If not what's your basis for comparison that not having the station 1 locator on a LNL is just as good? I loaded 400 more rounds this morning of 9mm in 30 minutes (4th time in 6 days) before converting over to trim the cases. Again, as I stated earlier 600 is not the same as 800. C4W can load 500 plus on a 550b in an hour, I could do the same on a SDB. We have yet to have a single person chime in that they actually loaded on a LNL at a pace of 800/hr, repeatedly and consistently producing quality ammo that would suffice both mine and C4W's loading requirements.

I don't understand why anyone is getting their panties in a wad over my assessment of the design. I'm just being honest. Look at my previous posts and/or ask C4W how in many a posts did I question the reliability of it. Loooong before I bought the XL650 and was talking to Bob2233 via PM about possibly going with a LNL. I researched in long and hard cause I wanted/needed to get my time behind a bench to the minimum debated the choice of LNL/XL650 myself. I stated it back then that I had reservations of the case feeder design and C4W proved that to be a issue, which would definitely be an issue for me as I load primarily only Glock fired 9mm. In addition there are at least half a dozen others that have posted on Enos most of them chiming in on Steve's posts saying the same thing. They gave up on the LNL because of most of the reasons C4W has already outlined.

You know what they say about making ASSumptions dont you?

And no one called you an idiot, you said that, not us. I could care less about your backround. It may be nice to say what you do around the dinner table but it means nothing compared to hands on experience with a specific product. BTW, do you know how many lawyers I know that have never once stepped foot in a court room. Let alone practice law on a daily basis. Youd be suprised.

Youre video is impressive. But youre not loading finished rounds so it proves nothing. Can you make a video of you going that speed while producing finished rounds? If you can, show us. Then I'll be even more impressed.

In regards to my experience with a 650, I have none, and never said I did. Nor did I ever say it wasnt a competely capable machine. I wouldnt comment on it because I dont have the experience to do so, that is something I did say. For some unknown reason you think its OK to comment on something you admit to having no experience with. Thats the part of ASSumption Im talking about.

And now your changing the requirements you originally asked for. You originally said you didnt think the LnL could do 400. I told you Ive done 600 so you change the required number to 800. At this point I think youve confused yourself.

To C4W,
You have dealt with this discussion and the bad experience you had in a very mature manor. I thank you for that. Wish I could say the same for some others on here.

Im now officially done with this discussion, Good Night!

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 17:47
Don't waste your time guys.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 17:48
That says it all. Why didn't you say that in the first place. Guess I'll just go crawl back in my hole. Makes my 5 years in newspaper aeronautics sorta worthless.

If you don't mind I'll wait to see what C4W has to say. He's owned both.

So what are you saying? The fact that I understand mechanical engineering, worked my way through 2 degrees over 15 years in the airlines and corporate aviation as a Licensed Airframe/Power-plant mechanic have a FAA Inspector Authorization has no bearing huh? What is your mechanical background? Ever even change the oil in you car or put air in the tires? I'm doing a HOT section inspection, with a PT wheel change on a PT6 engine for a King Air this weekend. A little side job for a doctor friend, no biggie just a $1.9 million dollar aircraft:upeyes:. You ever done something as complex as that and place one of your kids in a seat to got for a flight?

Just cause your on the internet doesn't give you the license to be a disrespectful troll. Everyone hear has to take everyone else for the word that they type and at least at first take for granted the sincerity of their experience and words. I happen to take pride in my profession. I've put my name on the line pretty much everyday of my working career stating an aircraft is airworthy placed many a stranger and friend alike in the seats of safe planes. Proven as a investigator the findings of bad cases too when friends and equipment were lost.
Like I stated earlier, everything that C4W came across with his LNL. I suspected before he bought it. Everyone is entitled an opinion. If you don't like mine, don't.... feel free to place me on your ignore list. I frankly don't give a flying F@#! as you have in your 12 posts here at GT proven to me your worth.

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 17:48
By the way the 650 cost how much more than the LnL, why not just get a 1050 and stop playing around...

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 17:51
Youre video is impressive. But youre not loading finished rounds so it proves nothing. Can you make a video of you going that speed while producing finished rounds? If you can, show us. Then I'll be even more impressed.

:faint: I'm done. You'll just never get it.

GioaJack
04-26-2011, 18:01
Are you guys saying if one can afford to. Get the 1050 AND forget the others. I only reload handgun at this stage. I figured with the case trimmer and extra work you have to put into rifle reloading. It's not worth it. I mean from a time stand-point . I enjoy shooting to much. Every now and again. I read where someone shoots to reload. I don't want to ever get to where I'd rather load than shoot. I suppose I could stock pile for the war of wars. Except I won't be here anyway.

I did figure out a 650 with CF and suggested items plus one caliber change and was up to near 1400.00. So what's a few hundred more to have the best. Caliber changes you just add a few as you need them.

C4W : I'd be interested to see the list of items you purchased when buying your 650.00. May I ask what Dealer you used?


Taking a break from sizing bullets with the son-in-law again. He's like the Energizer Bunny, just keeps going and going.


In regards to your comment highlighted in red... if you're fortunate enough to live long enough you will most probably get to the point where you enjoy loading more than shooting. Of course part of that depends on how much you actually shoot over the years but if you do enough where the novelty has worn off decades prior different things will come into play.

Everything you ever broke, crushed, tore or pulled comes back to haunt you. Sights that use to be crystal clear are now a fuzzy blur, assuming you can see them at all. The trophies lining the mantel, sitting on bookshelves and hanging from the walls remind you of times past and are rarely added to unless you're fortunate enough to be shooting against Unclebob.

Unforeseen physical limitations may keep you from participating in gaming activities and what used to be routine 8 hour range sessions become seemingly 3 hour marathons. A once strong back now necessitate help from younger people to carry your range box and bag to the line and if you wear a holster you alarmingly notice that the disappearance of the buttocks area and expanding waistline dictates the use of suspenders.

Many of less chronological advantage may look at this metamorphosis as something to be feared or avoided but nothing could be further from the truth. It's a transition in life that affords one the opportunity to not only participate in a long held area of enjoyment but to also truly appreciate the camaraderie of sitting with friends and those of like minded interests and sharing life's experiences and knowledge. And at the end of the day one realizes that relaxing time will be spent in the loading room so that those shorting but long days of friendship can be repeated week after week.

If you're real lucky you may even find a forum such as this one to join. :supergrin:


Jack

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 18:02
:faint: I'm done.


:violin::bunny::outtahere::therapy::wave:...What about them FCD

dudel
04-26-2011, 18:15
:faint: I'm done. You'll just never get it.

You did all you could Boxer.

You can lead a horse to water; but I won't push their head under to drink.

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 18:32
You did all you could Boxer.

You can lead a horse to water; but I won't push their head under to drink.

I would disagree, some of us and not just all that have participated may say its the other way around. But it was fun in a jerking off with sandpaper kinda way..:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 18:49
This is a joke...

How do you say the LnL is nor designed for a case feeder. They just put all the parts to install one incase someone wants to buy a dillon case feeder..you guys are starting to scare me and should put in a app for a job at dillon, or atleast ask for some money for all the work you do. You sond like the people who just recently bought something and now live to tell others how wrong they are for buyimg another product.. Holy **** man what has Dillon done to you..I really hope someone does not come out with a new and improved press thats blows both of the lnl and dillons out the water, or you guys will have to spend all your money on therapy and not components.

How come no ones a fan of RCBS?

The 650 was designed for a case feeder from the start. LnL was designed with out a case feeder. Later they changed the basic LnL so that you could add a case feeder to it. They changed the frame and the sub-plate. Case feeder is a after thought. That's why it's designed like it is designed. Same for the 650. It's just a fact. Doesn't mean it sucks. It's just a difference. Your taking this way to seriously.

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 19:00
By the way the 650 cost how much more than the LnL, why not just get a 1050 and stop playing around...

650 cost me $775

LnL is about $650

1050 is $1640

Basically two 650's for the price of a 1050.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 19:18
I would disagree, some of us and not just all that have participated may say its the other way around. But it was fun in a jerking off with sandpaper kinda way..:supergrin:

Yeah, you'll be pulling the same... I'm blind to the facts when C4W gives his review on the LNL echoing words regarding the casefeeder locator. :upeyes:

Flipz
04-26-2011, 19:19
:faint: I'm done. You'll just never get it.

You seem to be the only one telling everyone else they don't get it. Has it crossed your mind that maybe its you who doesn't get it?

GioaJack
04-26-2011, 19:24
Anything good on TV tonight, say around 8PM, Mountain time... on cable or satellite perhaps? :whistling:


Jack

nothing
04-26-2011, 19:27
:popcorn:

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 19:38
You seem to be the only one telling everyone else they don't get it. Has it crossed your mind that maybe its you who doesn't get it?
Then why is it that you haven't answered the most pertinent questions I specifically asked you regarding the railed locator in the last post with the video right?

Want to try again? Here you go...IMO it's better not because it is LESS SUSCEPTIBLE to case tipping particularly with narrower cases such as 9mm and .223, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE because it's RAILED for petes' sake! Don't you get it? Think of a roller coaster on a metal tubing track, would you be trusting enough to ride in the over head loop if the wheels were not caged? Do you know what that means?

Do you really thing by the design the LNL could handle that pace on it's casefeed V-block on a open slide and not have any .223 shells tip over? On a XL650 they CAN'T tip over by design.


The truth is if either press can handle the feeding pace of that video, obviously the XL650 can... because of it's design. The again obviously you could load at any pace less as long as your left hand can keep up with placing a bullet. Then again we are trying to get the truth here right and so can't handle it.

dudel was right, you can bring a horse to water... I ain't worried C4W will have his press going, give his review and once again everyone will once again :crying:

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 20:15
No offense c4w, but if his word is God where all in trouble..Well atleast you,have one loyal fan Steve..lol

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 20:17
Anything good on TV tonight, say around 8PM, Mountain time... on cable or satellite perhaps? :whistling:


Jack

Larry the cable guys only in America or somin like that, he weny to the NRA a few shows back...

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 20:25
No offense c4w, but if his word is God where all in trouble..Well at least you,have one loyal fan Steve..lol

First your :crying: that I have a biased opinion. Now you already are gearing up for the debate against C4W cause you KNOW exactly what the out come will be when he gives his review.

Hey, I know... why don't you take a stab at that last question for Flipz???
You understand the differences don't you? Do you think, just hypothetically, a LNL case feeder could load .223 cases as fast as in that video of the XL650? OH, you don't have one... that's right, so that's your excuse to plead ignorant?

Go ahead and Laugh... I know how it it in the SD.... Vatos locos, LNL forever!!!!:upeyes:

Colorado4Wheel
04-26-2011, 20:45
Nothing is perfect. Not even Dillon. While loading on the 1050 I had a case go in upside down 1 time in 1500 rds. It's not the end of the world or anything. We are talking about design difference and not absolutes. Lets say the Ford frame is weaker then the Chevy frame. Doesn't make the Ford un-drivable. It might still mean the Ford is a better truck for some people. Dillon is designed with things the Hornady doesn't even have. At the same time the Hornady has things going for it the Dillon doesn't have. Remember, I bought one because I WANTED one. Not out of pity. I honestly thought/think it had a lot going for it. If your Hornady works for you be happy. You got a great press. I have decided for me the 650 is a better fit.

GioaJack
04-26-2011, 20:52
^^^ See, I'm proud to call him my little buddy. (Course if he ever gets a big head and wants to shoot against me he's gonna get his ass kicked by a dying cripple. :whistling:)


Jack

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 20:55
First your :crying: that I have a biased opinion. Now you already are gearing up for the debate against C4W cause you KNOW exactly what the out come will be when he gives his review.

Hey, I know... why don't you take a stab at that last question for Flipz???
You understand the differences don't you? Do you think, just hypothetically, a LNL case feeder could load .223 cases as fast as in that video of the XL650? OH, you don't have one... that's right, so that's your excuse to plead ignorant?

Go ahead and Laugh... I know how it it in the SD.... Vatos locos, LNL forever!!!!:upeyes:

Dude for real you are going to far with this Dillon thing..is there something you need to tell us? You are getting way to bitter about a stupid fing press, go use a SS and get back to the basics and slow the F down.. Ive had enough of there near personal and rude comments over a stupid bullet stuffer...really man life is already to rushed and stressfull and I reload and come here to relax and learn not prove my press is better...and thats a Fact.. Horny ladies for life homes..

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 21:26
Nothing is perfect. Not even Dillon. While loading on the 1050 I had a case go in upside down 1 time in 1500 rds. It's not the end of the world or anything. We are talking about design difference and not absolutes. Lets say the Ford frame is weaker then the Chevy frame. Doesn't make the Ford un-drivable. It might still mean the Ford is a better truck for some people. Dillon is designed with things the Hornady doesn't even have. At the same time the Hornady has things going for it the Dillon doesn't have. Remember, I bought one because I WANTED one. Not out of pity. I honestly thought/think it had a lot going for it. If your Hornady works for you be happy. You got a great press. I have decided for me the 650 is a better fit.

No doubt that no press is perfect. I had an issue today doing my conversion change. The helicoil in the bore that hold the primer assembly was loose, eventually pulled out. I ran down to the airport to a buddies hanger borrowed a 1/4-28 helicoil repair kit, went home 3 minutes later fixed.
As for the LNL, don't get me wrong. I was really deliberating hard on whether to get one. Just didn't feel it was the right choice. I'm not gonna deny that price is an attraction either. I just believe the extra expense of the Dillon is justified. I got a lead on a LNL with case feeder certificate that a guy in our club won out of state last week. $600 cash FTF is his local asking price. I'm tempted but either way have no need for another case fed press.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 21:45
Dude for real you are going to far with this Dillon thing..is there something you need to tell us? You are getting way to bitter about a stupid fing press, go use a SS and get back to the basics and slow the F down.. Ive had enough of there near personal and rude comments over a stupid bullet stuffer...really man life is already to rushed and stressfull and I reload and come here to relax and learn not prove my press is better...and thats a Fact.. Horny ladies for life homes..

There you go avoiding the question yet again. :upeyes:

So it's OK for you to joke an say all you want but not me? Kinda a double standard right? I appreciate the advice on slowing down, but will pass on the single stage.

EL_NinO619
04-26-2011, 21:49
Lmao....:rofl:

Flipz
04-26-2011, 23:02
Then why is it that you haven't answered the most pertinent questions I specifically asked you regarding the railed locator in the last post with the video right?


I did answer your question. This is what I said:
"In regards to my experience with a 650, I have none, and never said I did. Nor did I ever say it wasnt a competely capable machine. I wouldnt comment on it because I dont have the experience to do so, that is something I did say. For some unknown reason you think its OK to comment on something you admit to having no experience with."

You should have learned a long time ago that hands on experience beats anything else out there. You can read every book out there and study every video or photo you see and it still wouldnt equal hands on experience. That can be one of your new "Facts". You admitted that you didnt have any hands on experience with an LNL with a casefeeder. Yet you think you know more then someone else that does. I dont see how you even begin to think that your train of thought regarding that makes any sense at all. Thats just disrespectful. And to start calling people ignorant on top of that because they dont see things your way, well thats just ridiculous.

Your backround means nothing compared to hands on experience in this case. All the certifications and licenses you hold in your field of work have nothing to do with reloading. If you think there is some sort of similarity to planes and reloading then Id have to say that a car mechanic has the same ability you have in discussing/diagnosing reloading presses. Both have the same amount to do with the mechanics of a press.

Whats worse is that you ASSumed that your on some higher level then someone else because of your backround when you dont even know what they do or their backround. You should have noticed that none of us felt the need to dish out all of our certifications and licenses to prove we know what we're talking about. When someone feels the need to do that its obvious that theyre trying to make up for something they dont have. In your case, its experience with the LNL. IMO, when it comes to the LNL, your opinions hold the same amount of credibility as anyone else who has none or extremely limited experience with it, and thats 0 credibility.

Over the course of this thread you have asked for one piece of proof and then another after the first was proven, and so on and so on. You'll never be satisfied with any answer youre given or any proof that is presented to you. You have responded to others in an immature manor and in what can easily be called a rude tone. Im sure that even people on your side of the discussion have noticed this. Its not appreciated and has taken this thread off topic to the point where it cannot get back on track with you continuing the way you have been conducting yourself.

I say good day to you sir.

Boxerglocker
04-26-2011, 23:57
OK, I give up... to all GTR.

I would like to apologize to any and all members for any statements that may have been personally offensive. That I have made to during my posts during the course of this thread. If I have made ASS of myself in even attempting to justify my opinions in regards to the design differences between the two presses, so be it. But contrary to what has been posted earlier it was not to personally attack or intentionally be rude to anyone. If that is the impression I am giving it is not intentionally and rather it continue just lay it down than let it truly get out of hand.

Respectfully,

Boxer

labdwakin
04-27-2011, 00:50
OK, I give up... to all GTR.

I would like to apologize to any and all members for any statements that may have been personally offensive. That I have made to during my posts during the course of this thread. If I have made ASS of myself in even attempting to justify my opinions in regards to the design differences between the two presses, so be it. But contrary to what has been posted earlier it was not to personally attack or intentionally be rude to anyone. If that is the impression I am giving it is not intentionally and rather it continue just lay it down than let it truly get out of hand.

Respectfully,

Boxer

Bout time ya did something nice for a change, ya snob! :whistling:

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 04:30
Box, no hard feeling at all. I was never upset I think you just got a little to into proving you where right as we all where trying to do. So lets bury the hatchet and agree on we all enjoy are presses equaly..

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 05:31
Man, I stay out of GTR for a day to help a few folks w/ some Linux install troubles, and I missed an absolutely epic thread...lol.

Go to your corners fellas.

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 06:45
650 cost me $775

LnL is about $650

1050 is $1640

Basically two 650's for the price of a 1050. Am I misunderstanding Dillon's specs on the 1050? With what they show for available options. I was figuring most everything that's considered fluff with the lower cost Dillon's. Is included on the base priced 1050. Is that wrong?

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 08:43
So what are you saying? The fact that I understand mechanical engineering, worked my way through 2 degrees over 15 years in the airlines and corporate aviation as a Licensed Airframe/Power-plant mechanic have a FAA Inspector Authorization has no bearing huh? What is your mechanical background? Ever even change the oil in you car or put air in the tires? I'm doing a HOT section inspection, with a PT wheel change on a PT6 engine for a King Air this weekend. A little side job for a doctor friend, no biggie just a $1.9 million dollar aircraft:upeyes:. You ever done something as complex as that and place one of your kids in a seat to got for a flight?

Just cause your on the internet doesn't give you the license to be a disrespectful troll. Everyone hear has to take everyone else for the word that they type and at least at first take for granted the sincerity of their experience and words. I happen to take pride in my profession. I've put my name on the line pretty much everyday of my working career stating an aircraft is airworthy placed many a stranger and friend alike in the seats of safe planes. Proven as a investigator the findings of bad cases too when friends and equipment were lost.
Like I stated earlier, everything that C4W came across with his LNL. I suspected before he bought it. Everyone is entitled an opinion. If you don't like mine, don't.... feel free to place me on your ignore list. I frankly don't give a flying F@#! as you have in your 12 posts here at GT proven to me your worth.
We are all disrespectful trolls. I don't see much diplomacy here. Most forums are worse. I was just trying to lighten up the situation. As long as you asked. I personally don't find flaunting one's credentials impressive. It's like someone saying I'm better than you because. Etc Etc. JMHO . Like I said I was just being a smart ass. As for the number of posts. There you go again. Why would I have to prove my worth to you. I haven't said anything about either side of the argument that was one sided. Your a funny guy. Don't be so thin skinned. I suppose I could do something you wouldn't. Like say I am sorry if I offended you. I'm really not much of a forum type. In fact this is the first forum I've joined in such a long time I don't remember my user id's or passwords of the others. I joined like I said. Because I'd read C4W's post to some degree, and found his opinions interesting and insightful. I wanted to ask him questions. I really had no intentions of making comments in this thread. As I started reading post I just got caught up due to frustration. Most people do a lot of online talking and never say anything. I'm sure you all know that. From what I'd read here and there. I was hoping this place would be different.

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 09:41
Box, no hard feeling at all. I was never upset I think you just got a little to into proving you where right as we all where trying to do. So lets bury the hatchet and agree on we all enjoy are presses equaly..


Oh great, now they're gonna have a hatchet fight... I gotta go find my cup. :supergrin:


Jack

Flipz
04-27-2011, 09:45
Oh great, now they're gonna have a hatchet fight... I gotta go find my cup. :supergrin:


Jack
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Classic Jack! Classic!

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 14:12
Am I misunderstanding Dillon's specs on the 1050? With what they show for available options. I was figuring most everything that's considered fluff with the lower cost Dillon's. Is included on the base priced 1050. Is that wrong?

650 with a roller handle and a case feeder would cost 818. Add Dillon dies and it's at $880. Thats exactly the same spec as a 1050. You probably have dies so you don't need a extra set.

Things people buy are strong mount, bullet tray, toolhead stands, low powder sensors, dust covers. It's just crazy in my opinion. By the time they are done with that your $300 away from a 1050 (just guessing really). But you don't need that stuff. I just made a bullet tray for my 650 in about 4 mins for basically free with scrap aluminum. I will post a picture later. Or just set them on the bench next to the press.

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 14:15
Just keep your back to the wall Jack and you should be fine.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 14:24
Because I'd read C4W's post to some degree, and found his opinions interesting and insightful. I wanted to ask him questions. I really had no intentions of making comments in this thread. As I started reading post I just got caught up due to frustration. Most people do a lot of online talking and never say anything. I'm sure you all know that. From what I'd read here and there. I was hoping this place would be different.

Different. I think it's different enough already.

I don't know how you personally feel about my comments. I have always tried to be fair but honest. People often get frustrated with me and assume "Well, Steve is the exception" and then go on their merry way thinking what they "want" to think. I have found that my candid appraisal of things. Gets me in trouble and sometimes maligned for not liking "anything" but in the background I have people PMing me saying "Same thing happened to me". So I don't view my experiences as being that far out of the norm. At the same time that doesn't mean others are going have the same experiences as me. I do have high standards. I will not be happy with a press that malfunctions every 100-200 rds. That's not acceptable in my book. That was my experience with the LnL and it's case feeder slider setup. The next guy may be perfectly fine with that and just push the case in line and not worry about it. To each their own I guess.

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 14:35
650 with a roller handle and a case feeder would cost 818. Add Dillon dies and it's at $880. Thats exactly the same spec as a 1050. You probably have dies so you don't need a extra set.

Things people buy are strong mount, bullet tray, toolhead stands, low powder sensors, dust covers. It's just crazy in my opinion. By the time they are done with that your $300 away from a 1050 (just guessing really). But you don't need that stuff. I just made a bullet tray for my 650 in about 4 mins for basically free with scrap aluminum. I will post a picture later. Or just set them on the bench next to the press.
You only have to spend $733.90 everything else is unnecessary. I did end up spending $869.30 by the time I was set up for two calibers.

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 14:45
650 cost me $775

LnL is about $650

1050 is $1640

Basically two 650's for the price of a 1050.

LnL, one shell plate, case feeder, one case feeder plate is more like $749. SO slightly more than a 650 not $100 less!

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 16:04
Personally I think it's bad advice to suggest to a newbie they can get by without the warning devices. Just pay attention to what your doing. Yeah right. You may be able to get by without a low powder sensor. But no one should go without either a lockout or the Powder Check system. How can you say you'll look at every case. Maybe at first. Or in single stage mode. Not on a progressive press with a casefeeder. Bad idea. JMO

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 16:09
650 with a roller handle and a case feeder would cost 818. Add Dillon dies and it's at $880. Thats exactly the same spec as a 1050. You probably have dies so you don't need a extra set.

Things people buy are strong mount, bullet tray, toolhead stands, low powder sensors, dust covers. It's just crazy in my opinion. By the time they are done with that your $300 away from a 1050 (just guessing really). But you don't need that stuff. I just made a bullet tray for my 650 in about 4 mins for basically free with scrap aluminum. I will post a picture later. Or just set them on the bench next to the press. I agree. However as soon as you can afford to buy an RF-100 your silly not to. That's a smart 300.00 spent. Plus it really is only $260.00 more than extra tubes and a flip tray. Steve I bet you have one..

XDRoX
04-27-2011, 16:17
Personally I think it's bad advice to suggest to a newbie they can get by without the warning devices. Just pay attention to what your doing. Yeah right. You may be able to get by without a low powder sensor. But no one should go without either a lockout or the Powder Check system. How can you say you'll look at every case. Maybe at first. Or in single stage mode. Not on a progressive press with a casefeeder. Bad idea. JMO

Put on your flame suit newb:steamed:

Devices like powder check dies and and low powder sensors or just that. Devices. Devices that can and will fail given enough time and use. To become dependent upon these things is not a wise decision.

Being aware of the reloading process and what is going on around you is essential to becoming a master hand loader.

The habit, or should I say skill, to look into every case before placing a bullet is completely do-able. It's the way I was taught to do it and the way I will make damn sure my son is taught to reload. It's now habit.

Not saying the extra checks aren't nice, but they certainly aren't needed and shouldn't be expected to work 100% of the time.

The best advice I've ever heard regarding reloading is, "Look into every case before placing the bullet."

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 16:37
Personally I think it's bad advice to suggest to a newbie they can get by without the warning devices. Just pay attention to what your doing. Yeah right. You may be able to get by without a low powder sensor. But no one should go without either a lockout or the Powder Check system. How can you say you'll look at every case. Maybe at first. Or in single stage mode. Not on a progressive press with a casefeeder. Bad idea. JMO

Millions and millions of rounds have been made without a low powder sensor. Yes they can be nice to have. Yes they can make loading safer. Especially if you are trying to crank on the handle as fast as possible. But they are not necessary. I can guarantee that I have loaded well in excess of 50K rounds without a powder sensor with out a squib or double charge. As to reloaders I am just a babe in the woods compared to some others here. So in my opinion they are not necessary!

Flipz
04-27-2011, 16:41
Devices like powder check dies and and low powder sensors or just that. Devices. Devices that can and will fail given enough time and use. To become dependent upon these things is not a wise decision.

Being aware of the reloading process and what is going on around you is essential to becoming a master hand loader.

The habit, or should I say skill, to look into every case before placing a bullet is completely do-able. It's the way I was taught to do it and the way I will make damn sure my son is taught to reload. It's now habit.

Not saying the extra checks aren't nice, but they certainly aren't needed and shouldn't be expected to work 100% of the time.

The best advice I've ever heard regarding reloading is, "Look into every case before placing the bullet."

I agree 100%. And thats coming from someone who uses a Lockout Die and still looks into each and every case before placing the bullet.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 16:44
I agree. However as soon as you can afford to buy an RF-100 your silly not to. That's a smart 300.00 spent. Plus it really is only $260.00 more than extra tubes and a flip tray. Steve I bet you have one..

I don't have one. I load my 5 tubes when I am bored.

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 17:00
I look in every case, but I have yo agree some what with him. Now that I use them I,wouldent load without and and dont unddrstand why you,would not use one. I have a dillon low primer alarm, but pretty much always still look at it and catch it before it goes off..but when loading on a PP even if you can go slow, id rathet have every precaution at my disposal.

unclebob
04-27-2011, 17:04
Personally I think it's bad advice to suggest to a newbie they can get by without the warning devices. Just pay attention to what your doing. Yeah right. You may be able to get by without a low powder sensor. But no one should go without either a lockout or the Powder Check system. How can you say you'll look at every case. Maybe at first. Or in single stage mode. Not on a progressive press with a casefeeder. Bad idea. JMO

Well let’s see I have been reloading on a 650 with case feeder for 19 years. 550 before that and single stage before that. And shotgun reloading before that. Other than shotgun whole different ball game. I have looked inside each and every case. Expecpt one time when I got distracted and short stroked the press the buzzer went off for no power. Thinking it was the low primer, installed a bullet. Because when I lifted the handle the low primer did go off. The one and only time in 50 years of reloading that I have ever had a squib other than shotgun, and no double charges. When I did a case gauge check of the ammo because it was for a match. I found a round that the bell had not been removed. I knew that somewhere in those 500 rds. was a squib. That ammo went for practice and I had to start all over again and load another 500 for the match that I was going to the next morning. So yes you can look inside each and every case as long as you do not get distracted on a progressive press with case feeder. Even with a powder check. A mechanical and or mechanical and electrical device that is subject to failure. Or not pay attention to the device and looking inside the case. Even if you have a powder check. In my case it was not the device that failed it was me not paying attention to it or in what I was doing in those 5 to 10 seconds.

dudel
04-27-2011, 17:10
Oh great, now they're gonna have a hatchet fight... I gotta go find my cup. :supergrin:


Jack

First rule. Don't bring a hatchet to a gunfight either. :supergrin:

dudel
04-27-2011, 17:13
Personally I think it's bad advice to suggest to a newbie they can get by without the warning devices. Just pay attention to what your doing. Yeah right. You may be able to get by without a low powder sensor. But no one should go without either a lockout or the Powder Check system. How can you say you'll look at every case. Maybe at first. Or in single stage mode. Not on a progressive press with a casefeeder. Bad idea. JMO

Spoken like a newb. Safety devices are not a replacement for paying attention to what you are doing. Safety devices can and do fail. If you are to distracted to pay attention, stop, and come back when you can.

For 20+ years, I've never used a powder check or a lockout die. I rely on my Mark 2 calibrated eyeballs. I watch each powder drop like I do when I use a single stage.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 17:20
It is FAR more dangerous to load on a machine that has occasional "issues" then to load on a machine with out a powder check. That is speaking from experience. Problems don't just happen while loading along. They also happen clearing a jamb of some sort. Then you put things back wrong and start loading. A powder check may not help in this situation.

dudel
04-27-2011, 17:23
OK, I give up... to all GTR.

Respectfully,

Boxer

Well, I have to step in.

As an engineer, I understand what Boxer is saying. There are disciplines which let you look, observe, compare system or designs and determine what component is suboptimal. Non engineers don't seem to understand how this can be done. How do you think they come up with MTBF hours? You think someone watches a disk drive with a stopwatch waiting for it to fail? Not hardly. As a consulting engineer, I get called in to review software (I didn't write) to see where it can fail. I don't need to write it to know how and where it can fail.

Boxer's doing the same thing. He's just doing it like the bright kid in school that would work the math problem on the board without showing all the steps and come up with the right answer. The rest of the class was wondering how the magic was done. There was no magic involved. You just don't understand the discipline. It's easy to dismiss what you don't understand.

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 17:26
Spoken like a newb.


Put on your flame suit newb:steamed:


I'm starting to believe Dillon owners are angry people..:dunno::rofl::supergrin:

I believe its a lot easier to get a press mishap double load when you don't have a auto index.IMO

dudel
04-27-2011, 17:29
I'm starting to believe Dillon owners are angry people..:dunno::rofl::supergrin:

Spoken like a true liberal. Those who disagree with you are either angry or haters. Yep, seen that before.

I believe its a lot easier to get a press mishap double load when you don't have a auto index.IMO

But at you say, it's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 17:33
Well, I have to step in.

As an engineer, I understand what Boxer is saying. There are disciplines which let you look, observe, compare system or designs and determine what component is suboptimal. Non engineers don't seem to understand how this can be done. How do you think they come up with MTBF hours? You think someone watches a disk drive with a stopwatch waiting for it to fail? Not hardly. As a consulting engineer, I get called in to review software (I didn't write) to see where it can fail. I don't need to write it to know how and where it can fail.

Boxer's doing the same thing. He's just doing it like the bright kid in school that would work the math problem on the board without showing all the steps and come up with the right answer. The rest of the class was wondering how the magic was done. There was no magic involved. You just don't understand the discipline. It's easy to dismiss what you don't understand.


You guys sure went about things the hard way... I just sat next to the Asian kid. :whistling:


Jack

Flipz
04-27-2011, 17:37
But at you say, it's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion and they have every right to defend it. Right or wrong, its their opinion. No one else has to agree with it.

The problem was with the way some chose to get their points across. Assuming that you know more then someone with hands on experience when you have none just because of what you do for a living is wrong. You have no idea what the other person does for a living, or the level of their experience with the topic of discussion. Yet you automatically think they dont understand what youre saying because they disagree with you. Thats just disrespectful. Then you just hit the repeat button on the phrase "you just dont get". Well thats just ridiculous.

EDIT:
And saying a "Non-Engineer" cant understand what an Engineer is saying about a product that they actually own and the Engineer does not, is complete BS. Youre acting like you Engineers are some type of Elite Super Handloading Commandos that the rest of us could only dream of becoming equal to one day. Get off your high horse.

Boxer apologized for whatever reason he felt necessary. If he apologized because he understood that others felt the way he was trying to prove his point was rude or disrepectful, then I respect that. He has every right to his opinion and Im all ears to hear it, no matter what the topic is. I just hope that it doesnt get as out of hand as it did this time. Not just with Boxer, but with everyone, including myself.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 17:41
I believe its a lot easier to get a press mishap double load when you don't have a auto index.IMO

Unless that auto indexing press is problematic. I loaded more squibs on a problematic auto indexing press then anything else. And no it wasn't the LnL. But I do have a couple batch's of bullets loaded on my LnL I may never shoot. I have never made a double charge or squib on my 550.

It's far more important to have a reliable machine then some safety device. Any time you have a issue your far more likely to make a mistake reloading.

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 17:42
Several of you have a way of putting the spin you want on someone's words. No where did I say you didn't have to pay attention. I said nobody pays 100% attention. Therefore a Alarm is silly not to have. It's just a back-up incase your not looking.

Please re-read what I wrote. Where do I say. You don't have to check if you have a warning device. I said pay attention. Yeah right..Most of you have agreed you blink from time to time. That's all I was saying.

Whoever said I was brand new to reloading. Please don't put new meaning to my words. I guess I have to start spelling everything out in detail. I knew what I meant. Obviously some of you didn't. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

C4W. I thought I saw where you had posted pictures of an RF-100. Must be someone else.

Bob2223
04-27-2011, 17:42
You guys sure went about things the hard way... I just sat next to the Asian kid. :whistling:


Jack


:supergrin:

Bob

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 17:45
C4W. I thought I saw where you had posted pictures of an RF-100. Must be someone else.


Maybe that was at my friends house. I think he has two.

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 17:48
Well, I have to step in.

As an engineer, I understand what Boxer is saying. There are disciplines which let you look, observe, compare system or designs and determine what component is suboptimal. Non engineers don't seem to understand how this can be done. How do you think they come up with MTBF hours? You think someone watches a disk drive with a stopwatch waiting for it to fail? Not hardly. As a consulting engineer, I get called in to review software (I didn't write) to see where it can fail. I don't need to write it to know how and where it can fail.

Boxer's doing the same thing. He's just doing it like the bright kid in school that would work the math problem on the board without showing all the steps and come up with the right answer. The rest of the class was wondering how the magic was done. There was no magic involved. You just don't understand the discipline. It's easy to dismiss what you don't understand.

OMG, just when i thought it was over..Now your the smart ones and where ignorant. Alright man i have to say it now. You a complete Fu**ing ****** bag.. Its a press it does not need to be over engineered, your not loading 20mm shells ( And our "life's are not on the line". Our presses work and work well. And if i knew you personally (which as the more post i read from you, I'm glad i don't) I would bet you a 1050 that my case feeder will work just as good as a Dillon. It may be a tad slower, but not all of us need to make up what where lacking in life by rounds per hour. Whats a few Hundred rounds a hour, well for me its more time at doing what i love, so I do not give a flying ****..

I don't care if you have eddie the engineer eyes. Do you design presses for a living. Have you ever pulled a handle on any press other than your Godly Dillon? Why the hell must you insist on being rude about proving your point, which no one apparently cares or agrees with but a couple of people. It tool a lot for me to finally snap and write this and i apologize to anyone who has to read this but get real man and stop trying to belittle people because they don't agree with your crazy DIllon pushing u know what. You may be smarter than some, but you sound like a fool at when it comes to commonsense and respect. Okay i feel better now...:embarassed:

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 17:52
OMG, just when i thought it was over..Now your the smart ones and where ignorant. Alright man i have to say it now. You a complete Fu**ing ****** bag.. Its a press it does not need to be over engineered, your not loading 20mm shells ( And our "life's are not on the line". Our presses work and work well. And if i knew you personally (which as the more post i read from you, I'm glad i don't) I would bet you a 1050 that my case feeder will work just as good as a Dillon. It may be a tad slower, but not all of us need to make up what where lacking in life by rounds per hour. Whats a few Hundred rounds a hour, well for me its more time at doing what i love, so I do not give a flying ****..

I don't care if you have eddie the engineer eyes. Do you design presses for a living. Have you ever pulled a handle on any press other than your Godly Dillon? Why the hell must you insist on being rude about proving your point, which no one apparently cares or agrees with but a couple of people. It tool a lot for me to finally snap and write this and i apologize to anyone who has to read this but get real man and stop trying to belittle people because they don't agree with your crazy DIllon pushing u know what. You may be smarter than some, but you sound like a fool at when it comes to commonsense and respect. Okay i feel better now...:embarassed: LOL I like you ..Good stuff - Took the words out of my mouth. I've normally found people who put others down and bragg about themselves. Very in-secure. Maybe they got beat up in school and no girls looked twice. On here they are. You know I don't need to spell it out. Just know I agree with you 100% . Keep in mind they are engineers + probably lack skills when it comes to courtesy and respect for what others have to say. Even if they don't agree. Besides the smart Kids in class when I was in school usually sat in the front row. The internet is their chance to let out all their frustrations on others.

dudel
04-27-2011, 18:03
Deleted. Not worth the effort.

casesensitive
04-27-2011, 18:18
Glad you feel better. You sound like the model of common sense and respect. Oh yeah. Go take your meds. You know I'm new here and for awhile just went through and read posts. Maybe your so full of yourself you don't see it. Your rude to people. You come off like you think your better. You boast your an engineer. I've read many post. I don't see but one or two others spouting their credentials before making a statement. Just because your President of the USA don't make you qualified to run the country.

And what's with the spelling correction. I don't know to many guys that are good spellers. If it weren't for spell check, no one could read what most of us wrote. To make a statement about spelling is anal.

So is your use of the word boy. You seriously aren't very nice to most people you disagree with. I'm sure others agree. Just don't have the balls to say so. Or don't care to waste their time more likely.

dudel
04-27-2011, 18:26
deleted.

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 18:31
Anyone seen Rodney King?

Flipz
04-27-2011, 18:41
Anyone seen Rodney King?

I just thought the same thing, lol. I think we need him to make an appearance here. Maybe we should check some of the rehab facilities. Thats where he was the last time I heard his name mentioned. He was on that VH1 show with Dr. ******, I mean Dr. Drew.

StaTiK
04-27-2011, 18:41
:deadhorse:

I think this thread died 5 pages ago. I wish there was a way to lock it based on popular vote.

-StaTiK-

Flipz
04-27-2011, 18:45
:deadhorse:

I think this thread died 5 pages ago. I wish there was a way to lock it based on popular vote.

-StaTiK-

:thumbsup:
Agreed!

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 18:47
Okay, I'm bored... hang on, you know what that means.

Just as with everything else we do in life physiology is involved in the act of loading and as such is subject to the same human frailties that effect all our other activities.

Imagine if you will that you're on a road trip in your car, truck or vehicle of your choice. You're headed west on I-70 and pass the sign that reads Green River, Utah'. (Beautiful country by the way.) Several seconds later you pass another large sign that reads, No Services Next 140 Miles. You glance at your fuel gauge, almost full, no problems.)

Seemingly a short time later you see an upcoming sign that reads, Richfield, Utah 15 Miles. How can that be, you just saw a sign that said No Services 140 Miles?

It's called Highway Hypnosis, and it's happened to all of us... in virtually every repetitious or mindless activity we engage in.

On our little road trip we did everything we were supposed to do; we drove in the right lane, we turned on our turn signal when we started to overtake a slower moving 18-wheeler and changed lanes to pass, we had the radio tuned to our favorite genre of music but we have no real memory of any of it. Sure we saw it all... but we didn't notice it. We thought about a report that will soon be due at work and in our mind wrote a first draft and two rewrites, we reviewed, in vivid detail the last gaming match we shot and agonized over the misses or repeatedly face palmed ourself because we had the fastest time going with no misses but then had a malfunction because of a high primer from that stupid LNL. We do everything but notice what we're supposed to be doing. That's just part of human physiology, it's normal and it effects us all.

How does it relate to loading, or does it? Yes, especially when loading at a fast pace and even more so when a variety of things are going on at one time, as with a progressive.

There's no doubt that the vast majority of loaders are conscientious and go to great lengths to be safe and do everything properly, going as far as looking in every case for a powder charge. At 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 hundred rounds an hour can you actually peer in every case? A physically mobile person with halfway decent probably can. Can you actually notice what's in that case to a reasonable certainty? Physiology says no.

Combine the other facets that the mind is occupied with during that 2 or 3 second period between completed rounds for minute after minute after minute after minute and the chance for error is huge. Consciously or unconsciously with each pull of the handle your eyes and mind are registering if a case was pushed into the shell plate or your mind had to direct your hand a certain distance to pick up a case, move a certain direction and distance to place that case in the shell plate. Simultaneously your mind alerts on the fact that the movement must be repeated to pick-up and seat a bullet while at the same time insuring that it is oriented in the proper position for seating.

Is this all the mind is preoccupied with? Not in the least. The mind insures, and double checks that the arm has moved with enough energy to properly seat a primer and if there is doubt will direct the arm to double pump the handle. While all this is going on our tactile senses are on guard for any foreign hesitation or required effort to operate the press in the normal manner while our hearing is employed to detect any operational sound, no matter how slight out of the norm.

While all of this is going on, every 3 to 4 seconds, minute after minute, after minute, after minute, after minute our mind visualizes the upcoming match the rounds will be used in, or the guns that still need to be cleaned, or that this session has to be completed before the Domestic Engineer starts to complain, and all of this is done while looking into each and every case... seeing but not necessarily noticing.

There are those, especially Unclebob, who will say, 'I've been loading for 113 years and have never blown up a gun. Well of course you have, that's because you take as much control over your activities as you can and when taken in toto it equals a safe loading experience.

We are quick to say that machines can fail and that it is safer to rely on human decisions and activity. Is that really true? How many red light accidents are caused because the light cycle suffered a mechanical failure as opposed to human driver error? How many wheels actually fall off a moving vehicle due to parts failure as opposed to someone failing to properly tighten lug nuts or a repair that wasn't properly done.

Boxer has a job that requires a very high degree of responsibility due to the fact that people's lives are at steak yet most probably his work is required to be checked by someone a level higher or in a supervisory role. Why? Because humans are prone to failure, a much higher rate of failure than a properly maintained piece of machinery.

So, does all this mean that it's a waste of time and effort looking into each and every case? No, not at all, but it is in no way the primary safety feature to insure a properly charged case... your press is. Properly adjusted and maintained your press will virtually always be more accurate than you ever will.

Take a lesson from the aviation industry... 'always trust your instruments'.

Okay, give me a minute to get another Diet Pepsi and put my flame suit on. Oh, I need more cigarettes too.


Jack

unclebob
04-27-2011, 18:47
:deadhorse:

I think this thread died 5 pages ago. I wish there was a way to lock it based on popular vote.

-StaTiK-

It probably will be here shortly.

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 18:52
Anyone seen Rodney King?


Boy, I take a few minutes to write a post and WW III breaks out. This is gettin' out of hand guys... I'd like to think we're all better than this. As a matter of fact, I know we are.


Jack

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:03
Boy, I take a few minutes to write a post and WW III breaks out. This is gettin' out of hand guys... I'd like to think we're all better than this. As a matter of fact, I know we are.


Jack

:agree:

I think everyone just needs to go to their corner, take a few breaths, grab a beverage of choice, and BREATHE

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 19:08
"Go take your meds" That's Great, did you engineer that or call your lib friends and the them " The Kid " does not agree with you and he must be crazy and need meds. I really don't care what you say about me or if you even want to delete me. Boxer on the other hand i still like and value his opinion, you ahhh not so much. Ever since i posted on here about using a LEE you have done nothing but say something stupid. And last time i checked I logged into GT not GrammerTalk. Now unless we talk about something else on this thread I'm a 100% done. You may say whatever you like dude, feel free to take it out. I don't mind letting people cook their ego's on me as long if it makes them happy. Hey i will even tell you Dillon is a far superior Machine, and i do believe that. I just Don't base it on whether or not it will survive a Japan style disaster.

Again Thanks to Jack for posting something worthy to read. I know Ive been lacking lately. Sorry guys. Let's not turn GTR into CalGuns.:faint:

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 19:11
I am nabbing the 200th post.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 19:11
Oh crap, I missed it.

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:15
Oh crap, I missed it.

Well, just keep posting, and by about 3-4am, you should be able to get post #300 :)

nothing
04-27-2011, 19:15
:poke:

you guys must have a lot of stock in your press companies to be so animated over what someone else thinks of your press. I didn't realize Hornady and Dillon were publicly traded...

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 19:16
i am nabbing the 200th post.

oh crap, i missed it.


HA! Rookie Flatlander


Jack

unclebob
04-27-2011, 19:16
Oh crap, I missed it.

Win some loose some.

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 19:19
I don't think we have ever had a thread go past 300. This could be the one Baby.

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:21
Win some loose some.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/IndyGunFreak/i_see_what_you_did_there.jpg

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 19:26
Didn't it go to 363 pages when we voted whether or not to let Indy stay on the forum? I believe the vote ended up 362 for banish and one to let him stay. (That damn Fred.)

Too bad the moderator said the result was unconstitutional... I'm still researching that decision.


Jack

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 19:27
300 II
This is GTR. Return with your keyboard or being carried on it!!!

In a struggle for press supremacy only one will survive.


http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/jareb-dauplaise-meet-the-spartans-1.jpg

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:30
Dang guys, we're in the news.. time to relax...

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/IndyGunFreak/joke.jpg

labdwakin
04-27-2011, 19:32
boy, i take a few minutes to write a post and ww iii breaks out. This is gettin' out of hand guys... I'd like to think we're all better than this. As a matter of fact, i know we are.


Jack

+3,065,830,000,000

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 19:34
Dang guys, we're in the news.. time to relax...

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/IndyGunFreak/joke.jpg



:thumbsup: (Oh God, I 'd rather take a Q-Tip to a gunfight than give you credit for something. :crying:)


Jack

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:37
:thumbsup: (Oh God, I 'd rather take a Q-Tip to a gunfight than give you credit for something. :crying:)


Jack

What's crummy, I forgot to change the date.. :rofl:

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 19:38
+3,065,830,000,000


Hey, what happened to the capitalization from my post in your quote? If I wrote like that I'd suck on a gas pipe.

I hope my English teacher isn't on the forum.


Jack

IndyGunFreak
04-27-2011, 19:46
I hope my English teacher isn't on the forum.


Jack

Jack.. I'm guessing most of your English teachers are dead.. :). I go to church with a few teachers, and I don't hear to many reminisce about the "chisel and stone tablet" days...

:)

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 19:54
Jack.. I'm guessing most of your English teachers are dead.. :). I go to church with a few teachers, and I don't hear to many reminisce about the "chisel and stone tablet" days...

:)


This is yet another reason on a very long list of why I'm going to strangle you with my oxygen hose.

The lack of respect shown toward our nation's mature citizens is alarming.


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
04-27-2011, 19:55
Thank god this thread is finally getting better.

labdwakin
04-27-2011, 20:49
Hey, what happened to the capitalization from my post in your quote? If I wrote like that I'd suck on a gas pipe.

I hope my English teacher isn't on the forum.


Jack

I think you didn't edit it quickly enough before I quoted you! :supergrin:

GioaJack
04-27-2011, 20:55
I think you didn't edit it quickly enough before I quoted you! :supergrin:


Funny how the original post doesn't have an edit notation at the bottom.

You would make a very bad and very quickly incarcerated criminal. Actually we use to call people like you, job security. :whistling:


Jack

labdwakin
04-27-2011, 20:59
Funny how the original post doesn't have an edit notation at the bottom.

You would make a very bad and very quickly incarcerated criminal. Actually we use to call people like you, job security. :whistling:


Jack


Well, I'm not worried... I can hobble far enough to get out of range of the end of your oxygen hose and cane. :tongueout:

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 21:18
This thread has gone to Hades before it even made it to the 10 page.

Just so you guys know RCBS progressive presses are better than your red and blue ones.

EL_NinO619
04-27-2011, 21:33
This thread has gone to Hades before it even made it to the 10 page.

Just so you guys know RCBS progressive presses are better than your red and blue ones.

Yes finally a a green machine..lol

shotgunred
04-27-2011, 21:53
It will load 70 rounds an hour as long as I already have the primer strips filled.

casesensitive
04-28-2011, 06:54
Blanket apology. Sorry for any statements I made that helped fuel the fire. C$W I look forward to seeing a photo or video review when your ready. Seriously

Colorado4Wheel
04-28-2011, 07:11
I don't know when that may be. I am busy basking in the glory of Dillon's customer service.

Translated....

They sent the missing part via Cliff Claven. I should see it next year.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjd7lkxC2g9iREV4gC6Ju68rHvpxDjeeO919ptvr47pN8QxxLKkQ&t=1

sellersm
04-28-2011, 09:02
LOL! That's a bummer Steve....

GioaJack
04-28-2011, 10:03
I don't know when that may be. I am busy basking in the glory of Dillon's customer service.

Translated....

They sent the missing part via Cliff Claven. I should see it next year.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjd7lkxC2g9iREV4gC6Ju68rHvpxDjeeO919ptvr47pN8QxxLKkQ&t=1


This is a serious and solemn forum where there is no place for feeble attempts at jocularity.

Please keep all posts on topic and delivered in a manner befitting the status of the dignified forum members.

All infractions will be immediately reported to a moderator of competent jurisdiction at which time severe, if not permanent remedies will be enacted.

Consider this your final warning. :whistling:


Jack

casesensitive
04-28-2011, 11:43
Since this is a dead thread. Anyone ever heard of these guys. I have some 1-fired on order, but they said 6 weeks. I figured it wouldn't hurt to buy some new stuff as well

http://www.mcssl.com/store/2254068/catalog/category/5019273

XDRoX
04-28-2011, 11:50
Since this is a dead thread. Anyone ever heard of these guys. I have some 1-fired on order, but they said 6 weeks. I figured it wouldn't hurt to buy some new stuff as well

http://www.mcssl.com/store/2254068/catalog/category/5019273

What size brass are you in need of? 6 weeks seems like a long time.

casesensitive
04-28-2011, 12:18
What size brass are you in need of? 6 weeks seems like a long time. Just 9mm .. I thought it seemed long to. No way to call though. I wasn't sure how much garbage comes with once fired brass. The place I ordered from has a good rep. It's posted in a sticky above. Scratch or something like that.

shotgunred
04-28-2011, 12:19
I have bought brass from forum member Neener Neener. It was delivered fast and I was happy with the brass. you might give him a try. just PM him.

casesensitive
04-28-2011, 12:23
ok TY

GioaJack
04-28-2011, 12:24
You can also send a PM to 'Blunt Object'. Very good prices, sorts and tumbles his brass, alway delivers a little more than you pay for.

If he has what you need in stock sends it right out in Priority Mail.


Jack

casesensitive
04-28-2011, 12:30
You can also send a PM to 'Blunt Object'. Very good prices, sorts and tumbles his brass, alway delivers a little more than you pay for.

If he has what you need in stock sends it right out in Priority Mail.


Jack Sounds as though this may be a better lead. Thanks

labdwakin
04-28-2011, 15:16
Sounds as though this may be a better lead. Thanks

Jack is our resident investigator. He is highly trained in the art of investigation and has sniffed out many happenings of dubious nature for the betterment of everyone here on numerous occasions. Please bear in mind though, that Dawg has a habit of cutting off his oxygen supply and rendering him somewhat nonsensical and unreliable. Naked pictures of Heather Locklear also impedede his judgement.

shotgunred
04-28-2011, 16:53
Blunt Object is a good source also. I won't buy 223 from him because it is amscore. But he has a lot of different pistol brass available.