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jonathangalt
05-01-2011, 12:04
Do we need them for ARs? Trying to find a round that is safe for HD use?

Broncbuster
05-01-2011, 12:41
I keep a mag full of 55GR hollow points just in case. But I still would not grab my AR, Mini 14 or AK as my first HD gun. Having others in the house I am worried about over penetration. Besides my pistol with a good light attached I keep a 18.5 in barrel Mossberg 500 12ga for HD. Now for outdoor perimeter or varmint sniping no worries with a carbine. Personally I think a pistol, shotgun and rifle should all be ready to go but what you pick up should vary on the task at hand.

poodleshooter1
05-01-2011, 12:57
I don't think so. Tumbling and the resulting fragmentation of it breaking at it's canelure is more of a concern for me.

cowboy1964
05-01-2011, 13:12
Yes, hollow points are great in ARs. Hornady TAP 75gr. About $15 per box.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

ARs penetrate LESS than handgun rounds.

jonathangalt
05-01-2011, 13:17
Yes, hollow points are great in ARs. Hornady TAP 75gr. About $15 per box.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

ARs penetrate LESS than handgun rounds.

Really?

JBnTX
05-01-2011, 14:14
.....ARs penetrate LESS than handgun rounds.


:wow:

It amazes me to no end how many people actually believe
this to be true!

RWBlue
05-01-2011, 14:28
It depends.

First off, I am not a fan of rifles inside the house/apt.. The barrel is too long. But lets assume we are talking about the one rifle person with no hand gun.

Outside, I don't think it matters.

Inside, is where it will count and only when you start thinking about who may be on the other side of the wall. Do you want a round that will rip through 6 walls to find the target OR are there friendlies on the other side of the wall?

cowboy1964
05-01-2011, 16:12
This has been discussed ad nauseum. Yes, larger caliber rifles like .308 can have a lot of penetration. A good .223/5.56 round like Hornady's 75-gr TAP will only penetrate about 9-10" in ballistic gel. Compare that to 11-14" for a typical handgun round. 12 ga buckshot penetrates a lot too. The thing about .223/5.56 is since it's breaking up even if a small piece does penetrate more it's not going to have much momentum. Contrast that to a 124gr or 230 pistol bullet still in one piece that has way more momentum.

There is plenty of info out there about all this.

http://www.steyr-aug.com/223forcqb.htm

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detaila8d3.html?id=130&sID=141

"The 75 gr. bullet offers deeper penetration than the 55 and 60 grain TAP UrbanŽ bullets yet still penetrates less than most law enforcement pistol bullets."

GenoTac Ind.
05-01-2011, 18:12
Per my own experience.

5.56/.223 HP = penetrate LESS than round nose FMJ pistol calibers in liquid/gelatin like matter because it fragments within a foot of hitting matter. Now it's fragments can go futher.

It goes right through dry matter, like drywall, as drywall thickness is minimal.

glock031
05-01-2011, 18:23
This video explains a little about how 5.56 tumble and fragments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gs5cwzui2A

cowboy1964
05-01-2011, 20:15
Hornady 75gr TAP.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail40ec.html?id=130&sID=141&pID=1

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg


Hornady 40gr TAP. Very limited penetration (maybe too limited).

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223_40_URBAN_4website.jpg

cowboy1964
05-01-2011, 22:49
Per my own experience.

5.56/.223 HP = penetrate LESS than round nose FMJ pistol calibers

Not just FMJ, JHPs too. But yeah, FMJs over penetrate ridiculously. Check out these vids of 45 ACP and 9mm FMJs tearing through gel blocks and keeping on going. This is why one doesn't use FMJ for defensive use. The 9mm is pretty impressive, not too different from the vaunted .45. If anything the 9mm was more impressive, IMO. But they both barely slowed down before exiting the block. What's interesting is assuming both vids were shot at the same frame rate, you can tell the 45 is significantly slower than the 9, as would be expected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPjTlj1pHk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSrlItrsbvs&feature=related

RyanNREMTP
05-05-2011, 15:23
I keep a full mag of 64 grain tactical hollow points as my first mag for home defense. To me hollow point is better than full metal jackets for defense.

WoodenPlank
05-05-2011, 20:10
In wall material, any rifle round is going to penetrate. A LOT. Same goes for most handgun rounds. 12ga lead buckshot doesnt penetrate as much, but will still tear through several walls before stopping. Out of the group, though, 12GA will penetrate the least number of walls.

No matter what your choice for HD, be sure of your target, what is beyond it, and what your home is constructed from. Even 5.56 can be stopped by a brick exterior, but the thin metal shell of a trailer isn't going to stop that 5.56 from punching its way out...and potentially into your NEIGHBOR's home, too.

jonathangalt
05-05-2011, 20:21
Here she is, still a virgin too!

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/jtaporco/2011-05-03223607.jpg


http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/jtaporco/2011-05-03223511.jpg

WoodenPlank
05-05-2011, 20:28
Here she is, still a virgin too!

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/jtaporco/2011-05-03223607.jpg


http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/jtaporco/2011-05-03223511.jpg

That brake is going to make shooting indoors suck. The MB556K Surefire brake on my SBR is bad enough outdoors, let alone inside.

If you're dead set on using your AR for HD use, invest in some good open tip ammo. If you have a 1/8 or 1/7 barrel, go 70+ grain. Don't get cheap **** like brown bear. Hornady, Federal, Winchester, Black Hills, etc are where you need to look. I am partial to the Hornady 5.56 LEO 75gr stuff in my SBR, personally, but YMMV. Look around your home, and figure out where your shoot/no shoot lanes are. A single miss inside a home with a rifle round can waste someone 6 walls over, in another room, an adjacent apartment, or even a neighboring home.

jonathangalt
05-05-2011, 22:09
That brake is going to make shooting indoors suck. The MB556K Surefire brake on my SBR is bad enough outdoors, let alone inside.

If you're dead set on using your AR for HD use, invest in some good open tip ammo. If you have a 1/8 or 1/7 barrel, go 70+ grain. Don't get cheap **** like brown bear. Hornady, Federal, Winchester, Black Hills, etc are where you need to look. I am partial to the Hornady 5.56 LEO 75gr stuff in my SBR, personally, but YMMV. Look around your home, and figure out where your shoot/no shoot lanes are. A single miss inside a home with a rifle round can waste someone 6 walls over, in another room, an adjacent apartment, or even a neighboring home.

yea, CT doesn't allow flash hiders for some reason, looks like it's the g19 and pps for HD, that or i have an excuse to buy a shotty...

WoodenPlank
05-05-2011, 23:20
yea, CT doesn't allow flash hiders for some reason, looks like it's the g19 and pps for HD, that or i have an excuse to buy a shotty...

12ga is your friend for HD.

cowboy1964
05-06-2011, 00:56
A single miss inside a home with a rifle round can waste someone 6 walls over, in another room, an adjacent apartment, or even a neighboring home.

A good .223 round (not some penetrator round or whatever) won't penetrate as much as any 9mm and up pistol round.

Hornady 75gr TAP. Known for more penetration than lighter loads but even it doesn't look overly penetrative to me.
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg

I'm done explaining this. Tons of info out there if one seeks it.

EOD3
05-06-2011, 01:17
Mossberg 590A1, ghost-ring sights, eight round magazine, side-saddle butt-stock, bayonet lug (if you think a spear is a good idea). Eight AA target shells in the magazine and four buckshot shells in the stock. Excellent HD gun and it's HIGH on the OMG scale. :shocked:

ArmaGlock
05-06-2011, 03:34
:wow:

It amazes me to no end how many people actually believe
this to be true!

It amazes me to no end that you are so confident that it isn't true...

Hollow point and soft point .223/5.56 penetrates less than most pistol rounds. It's a proven fact. Many people make the mistake of thinking rifle=automatic over penetration.

To the OP....Federal Sierra Vital Shock Gameking 55 gr BTHP. Manufacturer item # is P223E....Same as their law enforcement t223e round.

Decent round for CQB. Won't overpenetrate and hit someone 6 walls over as some would have you believe.:tongueout:

M&P15T
05-06-2011, 08:17
There's two different aspects to penetration that seem to be getting confused here. One is penetration through people (I.E. soft targets) and the other is through interior/exterior walls.

5.56 has excellent penetration performance in ballistic gellatin (even with standard M193) but will absolutely go through several interior walls and may exit your home. Just try some M193 5.56 on 1/2" mild steel, you will be shocked.

TimP
05-06-2011, 08:22
Personally I like ballistic tip ammo.

Gunnut 45/454
05-06-2011, 09:25
Though I have no doupt a 55gr HP would stop most threats at SD ranges I prefer to use either 69gr + HP or a good SP 55gr and up!:supergrin:

jamesbern
05-06-2011, 09:34
yea, CT doesn't allow flash hiders for some reason, looks like it's the g19 and pps for HD, that or i have an excuse to buy a shotty...

I have those same brakes on both my Stags (and i'm in CT as well). Even outdoors the concussion blast is loud.

12ga is a good idea. I keep mine with 00 buckshot and then a couple of slugs/birdshot in the side saddle.

ArmaGlock
05-06-2011, 11:53
There's two different aspects to penetration that seem to be getting confused here. One is penetration through people (I.E. soft targets) and the other is through interior/exterior walls.

5.56 has excellent penetration performance in ballistic gellatin (even with standard M193) but will absolutely go through several interior walls and may exit your home. Just try some M193 5.56 on 1/2" mild steel, you will be shocked.

M193 is ball ammo and is more likely to over penetrate people and walls etc. I think most of us are referring to hollow points.

WoodenPlank
05-06-2011, 16:05
A good .223 round (not some penetrator round or whatever) won't penetrate as much as any 9mm and up pistol round.

Hornady 75gr TAP. Known for more penetration than lighter loads but even it doesn't look overly penetrative to me.
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg

I'm done explaining this. Tons of info out there if one seeks it.

Ballistic gel =/= human flesh, and damn sure =/= wall materials. My post was specifically in reference to wall materials. Maybe you should look at THIS (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm) in regards to handgun vs rifle in wall penetration.

There's two different aspects to penetration that seem to be getting confused here. One is penetration through people (I.E. soft targets) and the other is through interior/exterior walls.

5.56 has excellent penetration performance in ballistic gellatin (even with standard M193) but will absolutely go through several interior walls and may exit your home. Just try some M193 5.56 on 1/2" mild steel, you will be shocked.

Thankfully, someone gets it.

Gunnut 45/454
05-06-2011, 16:33
WoodenPlank
Bingo we have a winner! Been saying this for years! This is why I don't worry about it! Make sure you hit the BG and then worry about where the bullets went after they left his body! Cause they will in most cases! If your so freaking worried about over penertration don't use a gun for SD! Even birdshot for a shotgun will bust through a wall or two!:whistling:
Two very good examples of this - Sen Gifford shooting-bullet zipped right through the length of her head-front to back! Osama same thing- and I'm sure the chest shot zipped right through as well!

Alaskapopo
05-06-2011, 20:19
Do we need them for ARs? Trying to find a round that is safe for HD use?

The best rounds going for the AR for defense are the 75 grain TAP round (Boat Tail Hollow Point) and the Black Hills MK262 load with Sierras 77 grain Boat Tail Hollow Point. Federal Match with 69 and 77 grain SMK's also works fine. Also no round is truly safe for home defense if you miss. 5.56 rifles are safer than pistols but neither is truly safe any round that has the ability to stop a threat will go through some walls.
Pat

Alaskapopo
05-06-2011, 20:21
:wow:

It amazes me to no end how many people actually believe
this to be true!

Hmm because it is true. There is a video out there done for the history channel I believe where they tested various pistol rounds, shotgun rounds and .223 rifle rounds against sheet rock walls and the .223 penetrated the least. Sounds like you need to go out ot the range and see for yourself. By the way the earth is not flat either.
Pat

Gunnut 45/454
05-06-2011, 23:03
Alaskapopo
This is why I use the 69gr SMK for my 16" carbine and the 75gr Hornady for my 20" rifle. I didn't get the breakup consistant with the 75gr in the 16" carbine ! Though I'm really like the 60 gr Hornady absolutely devistating round!:supergrin:

ArmaGlock
05-06-2011, 23:26
WoodenPlank, your link "Box O' Truth references M193, which is ball ammo, not a hollowpoint. It's going to overpenetrate, which is why M193 sucks for shooting people and for use in CQB.

WoodenPlank
05-07-2011, 00:28
WoodenPlank, your link "Box O' Truth references M193, which is ball ammo, not a hollowpoint. It's going to overpenetrate, which is why M193 sucks for shooting people and for use in CQB.

Many of the "hollowpoint" rounds for 5.56 don't even expand from their tip to begin with, but are still designed to tumble and fragment the same as FMJ.

ArmaGlock
05-07-2011, 03:28
True, but they fragment more than an FMJ and don't penetrate drywall very much.

Here's another penetration test.

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-%28Adpat%29

MajorD
05-07-2011, 11:44
any gun shot indoors with hearing protection is going to be loud and painful ,but certainly muzzle brakes make this worse- all my ar's have plain muzzles no brakes.
My solution to overpenetration is having a house with 8 inch solid log walls- I DO think that overpenetration is going to be a problem with pretty much anything but it has been proven that it is worse with handgun rounds than 223's.

M&P15T
05-07-2011, 12:33
delete.

Alaskapopo
05-07-2011, 13:18
delete.

---Quote (Originally by MajorD)---
overpenetration is going to be a problem with pretty much anything, but it has been proven that it is worse with handgun rounds than 223's.
---End Quote---

No, the opposite has been proven true.

5.56MM goes through walls like butter, far more so than handgun rounds.

Google The Box of Truth and read.
***************

Looks like you found out you were mistaken. Its a common held myth that 5.56 rounds penetrate more than handgun rounds. That is not the case.
Pat

WoodenPlank
05-07-2011, 13:58
True, but they fragment more than an FMJ and don't penetrate drywall very much.

Here's another penetration test.

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-%28Adpat%29

I find it interesting that, in your link, not a single 5.56 OTM round was used. They used two ballistic-tipped and one JSP - all designs based around expansion or fragmentation starting from the tip, not the cannelure like OTM bullets. I get the feeling this would make a drastic difference.

Edit to add: Their test ammo also went no heavier than 64gr in 5.56. They didn't include anything in the 70+ weight range.

M&P15T
05-07-2011, 18:06
---Quote (Originally by MajorD)---
overpenetration is going to be a problem with pretty much anything, but it has been proven that it is worse with handgun rounds than 223's.
---End Quote---

No, the opposite has been proven true.

5.56MM goes through walls like butter, far more so than handgun rounds.

Google The Box of Truth and read.
***************

Looks like you found out you were mistaken. Its a common held myth that 5.56 rounds penetrate more than handgun rounds. That is not the case.
Pat

It depends on the ammo used.

M193 tore through 12 sheets of dry-wall just like 9MM and .45ACP FMJ. The box of truth also showed M193 going through many more 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards than 9MM and .45ACP. With the pistols they tested using JHPs, and the JHPs had their cavities fill with wood and didn't expand at all.

I myself have shot at "bullet proof" glass, the 3" thick ploycarbonate stuff, at my range. .40 S&W and 9MM FMJs stuck in it, and M193 went right through it. I have also shot at 1/2" mild steel which stopped 9MM & .45ACP FMJs, but then shot right through it with M193.

Make no mistake, M193 will go through walls with abandon, worse than pistol rounds (wether FMJs or JHPs.) However, I understand that everyone else is talking 5.56MM JHPs, and I'm not. So we'll just leave it at that.

Alaskapopo
05-07-2011, 19:46
It depends on the ammo used.

M193 tore through 12 sheets of dry-wall just like 9MM and .45ACP FMJ. The box of truth also showed M193 going through many more 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards than 9MM and .45ACP. With the pistols they tested using JHPs, and the JHPs had their cavities fill with wood and didn't expand at all.

I myself have shot at "bullet proof" glass, the 3" thick ploycarbonate stuff, at my range. .40 S&W and 9MM FMJs stuck in it, and M193 went right through it. I have also shot at 1/2" mild steel which stopped 9MM & .45ACP FMJs, but then shot right through it with M193.

Make no mistake, M193 will go through walls with abandon, worse than pistol rounds (wether FMJs or JHPs.) However, I understand that everyone else is talking 5.56MM JHPs, and I'm not. So we'll just leave it at that.

Ball ammo is not a good choice in pistols or rifles for self defense. But that said your last statement is not substantiated. Your own words "M193 tore through 12 sheets of dry-wall just like 9MM and .45ACP FMJ"

Your example of playing at the range with steel and glass shows a lack of understanding. Yes the 5.56 will penetrate an initial hard barrier better than pistols. The reason for this is it has a lot of energy and its got a concentrated point where that energy goes. (smaller diameter) However against soft targets like sheet rock that are more volumous the .223 rapidly loses energy and fragments. It has a lot of energy but not a lot of momentium.
Pat

Mayhem like Me
05-07-2011, 21:54
:wow:

It amazes me to no end how many people actually believe
this to be true!

in people a quality 223 will penetrate less than 9mm ball so there is some 'truth" to the madness

Eurodriver
05-07-2011, 23:06
It amazes me to no end that you are so confident that it isn't true...

Hollow point and soft point .223/5.56 penetrates less than most pistol rounds. It's a proven fact. Many people make the mistake of thinking rifle=automatic over penetration.

To the OP....Federal Sierra Vital Shock Gameking 55 gr BTHP. Manufacturer item # is P223E....Same as their law enforcement t223e round.

Decent round for CQB. Won't overpenetrate and hit someone 6 walls over as some would have you believe.:tongueout:

I don't understand how so many people can be so adamant about something that isn't true.

Pistols overpenetrate, especially .45ACP.

One wall made out of plaster and drywall will not stop, but severely hinder a .223's progress.

M&P15T
05-08-2011, 07:03
Ball ammo is not a good choice in pistols or rifles for self defense. But that said your last statement is not substantiated. Your own words "M193 tore through 12 sheets of dry-wall just like 9MM and .45ACP FMJ"

Go to The Box of Truth and read for yourself about M193/9MM/.45ACP going through sheet-rock and pine boards. And of course M193/FMJ is not good for self-defense, that's understood. In order to keep that distinction clear, I have stated repeatedly that everyone else is talking JHP 5.56MM, and I'm discussing M193.

Your example of playing at the range with steel and glass shows a lack of understanding. Yes the 5.56 will penetrate an initial hard barrier better than pistols. The reason for this is it has a lot of energy and its got a concentrated point where that energy goes. (smaller diameter) However against soft targets like sheet rock that are more volumous the .223 rapidly loses energy and fragments. It has a lot of energy but not a lot of momentium.
Pat

No, it's not a lack of understanding. I am knowledgable on all of the above you wrote, but there are two different topics in this thread being discussed. Penetration in/through soft targets (IE bad guys), and penetation through building materials (IE walls), just like I stated earlier in this thread. M193 will go through just as many sheets of sheet-rock as 9MM/.45ACP JHPs, and people need to know that to make sound ammo choices if they're going to use an AR for SD/HD.

One other idea to keep in mind......most folks live in average homes. Depending on how a bad situation went down, any type of round may only have one wall to get through before representing a mortal danger to others. Even JHP 5.56 will exit an exterior (non-brick/stone) wall with enough energy to kill, just as with pistol rounds.

I think that making wise ammo choices is prudent, but there is always an element of chance with HD/SD situations.

M&P15T
05-08-2011, 07:04
I don't understand how so many people can be so adamant about something that isn't true.

Pistols overpenetrate, especially .45ACP.

One wall made out of plaster and drywall will not stop, but severely hinder a .223's progress.

It depends on the 5.56MM ammo being used. I think we need to stress that.

ArmaGlock
05-08-2011, 16:03
Pretty sure the topic of this thread is "hollow points." Maybe if everyone would stay on topic we wouldn't have all this clutter about FMJ.

ArmaGlock
05-08-2011, 16:04
I don't understand how so many people can be so adamant about something that isn't true.

Pistols overpenetrate, especially .45ACP.

One wall made out of plaster and drywall will not stop, but severely hinder a .223's progress.

You're preaching to the choir.

JBnTX
05-08-2011, 16:40
in people a quality 223 will penetrate less than 9mm ball so there is some 'truth" to the madness


I've read tons of stuff about 5.56 penetrating less than handgun rounds. I still don't believe it.

I've got friends wanting to take me out and show me proof.
Everybody says I'm wrong.

Well just like a young puppy, somebody is going to have to rub my nose
in it before I'll believe it.

jonathangalt
05-08-2011, 18:39
YES, i finally got out to shoot it today, went to high rock shooting range, had an absolute BLAST! at about 25 yards i put like 40 rounds through the same hole about the size of a half dollar.

WoodenPlank
05-08-2011, 19:01
We also can not forget the important distinction between hollow-point - designed to expand from the tip, like JHP in a handgun - and open-tip (often referred to as hollow-point), but typically designed to tumble and fragment, much like ball ammo.

nipperwolf
05-08-2011, 19:11
I've read tons of stuff about 5.56 penetrating less than handgun rounds. I still don't believe it.

I've got friends wanting to take me out and show me proof.
Everybody says I'm wrong.

Well just like a young puppy, somebody is going to have to rub my nose
in it before I'll believe it.

:upeyes: :upeyes:

Eurodriver
05-08-2011, 20:35
You're preaching to the choir.

Well half the choir is busy fornicating because there sure are alot of people in this thread who would bet money that a 5.56 round would go through 12 interior walls and still kill your baby kitten and your 9mm wouldn't make it through the plastic lightswitch cover.