Heat Capacity [Archive] - Glock Talk

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WiskyT
05-01-2011, 13:03
I am currently working on liquid cooling system for reloading press bearings. I was thinking a 50/50 mix of ehylene glycol and water would be very effective. But now I'm thinking if the system became opened, a pet or child could get poisoned. The thing is, I need to decide on the coolant to be used before I can develope the heat exchangers.

Any ideas?

Boxerglocker
05-01-2011, 13:13
Problem solved easily use a propylene glycol base coolant.... look forward to seeing you heat exchanger design.

cbus
05-01-2011, 13:18
I am currently working on liquid cooling system for reloading press bearings. I was thinking a 50/50 mix of ehylene glycol and water would be very effective. But now I'm thinking if the system became opened, a pet or child could get poisoned. The thing is, I need to decide on the coolant to be used before I can develope the heat exchangers.

Any ideas?


Distilled water and Redline Water Wetter (or any other surfactant)?

Not sure if your application would be exposed to sub-freezing applications - but in my race bike, that's all I can use. From my understanding, which is limited, "coolants" actually perform worse than water.

NOLA_glock
05-01-2011, 13:21
Salts are a good nontoxic way to elevate boiling point/depress melting point.

Water has a saturation point with calcium chloride twice as high as sodium chloride, and it dissociates into three ions as opposed to just two. That's what I would go with.

If you'd like, I can try to figure out where the boiling point/freezing point should be.

ETA, at saturation for lower temps, the boiling point is ~20 degrees F higher than pure water; for higher temps, the ~40 degrees F higher than pure water.

Is it really something that you can't do with just plain tap water, though?

Gokyo
05-01-2011, 13:24
I am currently working on liquid cooling system for reloading press bearings.

I am having a really hard time imagining a reloading press that is going to need a coolant system.

What kind of press are you talking about? Have you actually measured the temp to see if a coolant is necessary?

trcubed
05-01-2011, 13:53
Salts are a good nontoxic way to elevate boiling point/depress melting point.

Water has a saturation point with calcium chloride twice as high as sodium chloride, and it dissociates into three ions as opposed to just two. That's what I would go with.

If you'd like, I can try to figure out where the boiling point/freezing point should be.

ETA, at saturation for lower temps, the boiling point is ~20 degrees F higher than pure water; for higher temps, the ~40 degrees F higher than pure water.

Is it really something that you can't do with just plain tap water, though?

Salts will have a detrimental effect on any non-stainless parts with which they come into contact.

The preferred method of elevated cooling capacity for reloading press bearings is the installation of a properly designed chiller and associated piping system. Remember to design at the proper flow rate. The proper volume of water is more important than temperature when addressing heat dissipation issues.

A chilled water system also assumes the installation of a biocide system. Many prefer UV destruction of any algaeic growth components over the limitations of chemical additives.

This current SOP with my RL550b. My wife didn't appreciate that the chiller condenser really needed to be on the roof. Plus,the crane outriggers made big dents in the yard.

:supergrin:

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 13:59
Salts will have a detrimental effect on any non-stainless parts with which they come into contact.

The preferred method of elevated cooling capacity for reloading press bearings is the installation of a properly designed chiller and associated piping system. Remember to design at the proper flow rate. The proper volume of water is more important than temperature when addressing heat dissipation issues.

A chilled water system also assumes the installation of a biocide system. Many prefer UV destruction of any algaeic growth components over the limitations of chemical additives.

This current SOP with my RL550b. My wife didn't appreciate that the chiller condenser really needed to be on the roof. Plus,the crane outriggers made big dents in the yard.

:supergrin:

Yes I think you're on to something here. In fact, if I could run the plumbing up to Lake Norman, I could use the whole lake as a heat sink. I'm glad you understand the seriousness of this undertaking. I shoot 500K rounds peryear for my competition training (all of it while wearing 5.11 pants) and I only have two hours a year to reload all of it. If I can keep the press at a constant temp, I will be able to maintain my COAL within 3 microns. Currently, press expansion throughout the loading session is wrecking havoc on my COAL!

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 14:00
Say, WTF is Khunigitdale and do they have any large bosies of water there?

NOLA_glock
05-01-2011, 14:08
Salts will have a detrimental effect on any non-stainless parts with which they come into contact.



Good point!

OP, You'll clearly have to design a cathodic protection system, as well.
:tongueout:

Here's a chart to help you choose your sacrificial anode:
http://www.ewalerko.net/srptable.gif
:wavey:

Bob2223
05-01-2011, 14:09
I am currently working on liquid cooling system for reloading press bearings. I was thinking a 50/50 mix of ehylene glycol and water would be very effective. But now I'm thinking if the system became opened, a pet or child could get poisoned. The thing is, I need to decide on the coolant to be used before I can develope the heat exchangers.

Any ideas?


Google food grade Propylene glycol, it's used to cool LNL's that are pushed to 200 RPM or more. :whistling:

Food Grade Propylene Glycol is used in winerys and food processing.
Non toxic.

Bob

trcubed
05-01-2011, 14:11
IF??? "If I could run the plumbing up to Lake Norman"??? This is YOUR nightmare...if you can dream it, it can happen!




Kuhnigitdale = phonetic spelling of Knightdale...east side of Raleigh. Biggest puddle we have around here is Falls Lake. Don't even THINK of tapping into Falls for your water supply. You'd put the entire Eastern US into a drought.

PCJim
05-01-2011, 14:17
Wisky, you should strongly consider the use of a liquid nitrogen system as opposed to a water-based design. I, too, have given some consideration of the need while performing routine service on my press, as I've noticed what I think to be heat marks on the ram - faintly similar to the annealing marks that are typically seen on rifle cases.

Using liquid nitrogen, while not recyclable by the user without elaborate containment systems, would avoid the biocides that would be required in an open-loop cooling system.

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 14:20
Good point!

OP, You'll clearly have to design a cathodic protection system, as well.
:tongueout:

Here's a chart to help you choose your sacrificial anode:
http://www.ewalerko.net/srptable.gif
:wavey:

Sorry, I forgot to mention my Pro1000 has a Zn frame. I assumed you all knew I would just be incorporating the frame as a cathode. I got the idea while stuck in traffic behind a guy towing a bass boat. The 650 could be a problem though.

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 14:22
Google food grade Propylene glycol, it's used to cool LNL's that are pushed to 200 RPM or more. :whistling:

Food Grade Propylene Glycol is used in winerys and food processing.
Non toxic.

Bob

200RPM just aint gonna cut it with what we're dealing with here. But thatnks for your input, the sentiment is appreciated.

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 14:25
Wisky, you should strongly consider the use of a liquid nitrogen system as opposed to a water-based design. I, too, have given some consideration of the need while performing routine service on my press, as I've noticed what I think to be heat marks on the ram - faintly similar to the annealing marks that are typically seen on rifle cases.

Using liquid nitrogen, while not recyclable by the user without elaborate containment systems, would avoid the biocides that would be required in an open-loop cooling system.

The problem with liquified gas is getting the proper permiting from the various .Gov agencies. I went through all that while working on a hush-hush project in Grover's Mills some years back.

NOLA_glock
05-01-2011, 14:26
Sorry, I forgot to mention my Pro1000 has a Zn frame. I assumed you all knew I would just be incorporating the frame as a cathode. I got the idea while stuck in traffic behind a guy towing a bass boat. The 650 could be a problem though.

:thumbsup: :cheers:

trcubed
05-01-2011, 15:18
Wisky, you should strongly consider the use of a liquid nitrogen system as opposed to a water-based design. I, too, have given some consideration of the need while performing routine service on my press, as I've noticed what I think to be heat marks on the ram - faintly similar to the annealing marks that are typically seen on rifle cases.

Using liquid nitrogen, while not recyclable by the user without elaborate containment systems, would avoid the biocides that would be required in an open-loop cooling system.


Shirley you jest.

The intricate system described is by nature of design clearly required to be a closed loop system, with inherent regeneration due to the lack of heat as an operational benefit.

An open system, with the UV inhibitors off-line for maintence, would allow the biologicals in the piping system to bloom (directly proportional to the increasing temperature), thus creating a hazard to navigation as the bloom colonizes Lake Norman. What happens next is anyone's guess.

You really should have known. You must be a nooB.

ETA: And...DUH...how does the OP work around the brittle fracture issue with the press frame while using LN as a coolant??? HMmmmm??!?

:supergrin:

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 15:35
An open system, with the UV inhibitors off-line for maintence, would allow the biologicals in the piping system to bloom (directly proportional to the increasing temperature), thus creating a hazard to navigation as the bloom colonizes Lake Norman. What happens next is anyone's guess.



:supergrin:


From the mouths of babes. Sometimes the solution is so simple it is only as far away as 5 year old with chocolate Easter Bunny on the corner of her mouth. My daughter solved the inherent algea problems. Guys, it looks like this is going to be a go. Now I just gotta see if I can find any black PEX pipe. It will attract a lot less attention when I lay it at night.


http://amymickey.com/Images/Funny%20Money/spongebob_gary_autograph.jpg

filthy infidel
05-01-2011, 15:45
I want my two minutes back.

<Was born in Kunighitdale back in the day.

Boxerglocker
05-01-2011, 15:48
:rofl: I know exactly where Whiskey was going with this thread. I figured playing along with a valid answer would be an appropriate response would get the ball. :supergrin:

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 15:51
I want my two minutes back.

<Was born in Kunighitdale back in the day.




:rofl: I know exactly where Whiskey was going with this thread. I figured playing along with a valid answer would be an appropriate response would get the ball. :supergrin:



Yes, there is a higher purpose to this thread.

gator378
05-01-2011, 15:59
Problem solved easily use a propylene glycol base coolant.... look forward to seeing you heat exchanger design.

+1. Every Brewery in the world uses propylene glycol or food plant that requires equipment to be cooled.

gator378
05-01-2011, 16:02
Salts are a good nontoxic way to elevate boiling point/depress melting point.

Water has a saturation point with calcium chloride twice as high as sodium chloride, and it dissociates into three ions as opposed to just two. That's what I would go with.

If you'd like, I can try to figure out where the boiling point/freezing point should be.

ETA, at saturation for lower temps, the boiling point is ~20 degrees F higher than pure water; for higher temps, the ~40 degrees F higher than pure water.

Is it really something that you can't do with just plain tap water, though?

Don't forget that salts can be corrosive to equipment

Angry Fist
05-01-2011, 16:04
Just spill a little beer on it every so often.... :whistling:

NOLA_glock
05-01-2011, 16:23
Don't forget that salts can be corrosive to equipment

He's already got that covered via his fancy sacrificial anode.:rofl:

Though now that I look at the reduction potentials, his Zinc idea would only protect aluminum components. Maybe nickel, tin, lead, or copper--that way iron/steel are safe, as well!:cheers::rofl:

Lateral Forces
05-01-2011, 17:22
will the room that you are reloading in go under 32f? If not you only need to worry about bacteria in the water, and galvanic effects. I would use distilled water with a small amount of bacteria/corrosion blocker such as http://www.xoxide.com/feser-one-corrosion-blocker.html . Also try to select components in the cooling loop that are the same materiel (use all copper/ all aluminum/ all steel) to prevent Galvanic corrosion.

bush pilot
05-01-2011, 17:39
I am having a really hard time imagining a reloading press that is going to need a coolant system.

What kind of press are you talking about? Have you actually measured the temp to see if a coolant is necessary?

It leaked out at the SHOT show that Lee was developing a cooling unit for the Load Master, prolly out by fall.

GioaJack
05-01-2011, 18:37
There's gotta be a gas pipe around here somewhere that I can suck on.

Wait, wait, I have morphine... 18 or 20 pills should do it. :faint:


Jack

Angry Fist
05-01-2011, 18:41
There's gotta be a gas pipe around here somewhere that I can suck on.

Wait, wait, I have morphine... 18 or 20 pills should do it. :faint:


Jack
You gunna cut it with laxative?

WiskyT
05-01-2011, 18:51
There's gotta be a gas pipe around here somewhere that I can suck on.

Wait, wait, I have morphine... 18 or 20 pills should do it. :faint:


Jack

20 morphine pills wouldn't even make you nod.

PCJim
05-01-2011, 20:37
Shirley you jest.

The intricate system described is by nature of design clearly required to be a closed loop system, with inherent regeneration due to the lack of heat as an operational benefit.

An open system, with the UV inhibitors off-line for maintence, would allow the biologicals in the piping system to bloom (directly proportional to the increasing temperature), thus creating a hazard to navigation as the bloom colonizes Lake Norman. What happens next is anyone's guess.

You really should have known. You must be a nooB.

ETA: And...DUH...how does the OP work around the brittle fracture issue with the press frame while using LN as a coolant??? HMmmmm??!?

:supergrin:

The word is "Surely".... :cheers:

Anyway, the system I'm considering will spray a very fine, controlled mist of LN on the ram and associated bearings, not a total immersion (I agree that would not work). The system will be similar to what you see at the theme parks, where they use a water mist to keep those waiting in the hour long lines at a relative level of insanity. I figure that I will have to keep a half dozen LN bottles on hand so that as there would be enough in rotation to keep getting refills delivered.

NOLA_glock
05-01-2011, 23:07
Can this be the new GNG? GNG got a little too NG for me.

labdwakin
05-02-2011, 02:02
Even less expensive would be to just buy multiple presses, install temp monitors on them, and change presses when you start getting things too warm... Unless, of course, the spousal unit would be upset with this route...

Wisky... I'll come run the backhoe for you. :grin: