Krav Maga vs. PPCT [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Dukeboy01
05-06-2011, 23:06
So I finished my 40 hours of inservice training this week. This year my department subjected me to 16 hours of introduction to "Krav Maga" which, near as I can tell, is Hebrew for "Punch 'em in the junk." It seemed like every third move ended with a strike to the fruity pebbles.

I figure we probably have some Krav aficianados on here. I was wondering if some of you could share your insights into the appropriateness and/ or usefulness of Krav for law enforcement officers.

Here are my observations after an admittedly very brief introduction. For the record, I'm not and have never been a martial artist of any kind. My self- defense training is primarily PPCT, but I'm not an instructor.

1. 16 hours of Krav instruction is just enough time to give the average LEO enough knowledge to be dangerous.

2. The moves, while simpler than the forms in other martial arts, are several orders of magnitude more technical than the gross motor moves taught in PPCT.

3. It was pretty clear that the instructors were trying to "tone down" the lethality to make it more liability friendly.

4. The Krav response to resistance is much more aggressive than PPCT in several ways, some of which I found kind of reckless, for lack of a better term. For example, we were introduced to the Krav method of weapon retention if a bad guy tried to take your gun from the holster. For almost 14 years I have practiced trapping the snap, lowering my center of gravity, twisting away to break their grip on the gun, gaining complete control of the weapon, and then counter attacking when appropriate.

The Krav method called for attacking your opponent before you had gained complete and total control of the weapon. That just seemed wrong to me. I beleive that in a highly stressful situation, like a struggle over a gun, you are better served devoting your attention and energy to securing the gun before you worry specifically about hurting your opponent. If your opponent happens to be hurt by your efforts to gain control of the gun, that's great.

Anyway, what are the CT brain trust's thoughts on Krav maga?

silverado_mick
05-06-2011, 23:19
KM is a military martial art. Military forms of hand to hand combat are lethal in nature (or are supposed to be, don't get me started on MCMAP). I would be hesitant to use any of the old school LINE training from my early days in the Corps on the street as a cop, because it's not geared to subduing an opponent, it's geared toward killing them ASAP.

FWIW I have no real world experience with Krav Maga, I'm just generalizing on military oriented fighting systems in general. I'd think PPCT is more useful for what we do day to day.

Cochese
05-06-2011, 23:40
I am a longtime practitioner of standard and LE KM. There is a huge difference. I started in 2006. I was introduced at a previous PD and ended up going to a private school.

The thing about KM, is it isn't an art which requires continued learning. That's not the way the Israelis intended it. Once you learn it (its very easy), you need only stay proficient. There isn't a continued learning element like other arts.

My new department moved to KM this year as well. It was interesting seeing my liberal panty waist department put their own twist on it.

One other good thing is that it let's you articulate just about any strike. There is nothing quite like having a guy try a little.active aggression and reaping a no.3 elbow. :cool: its also quite astounding seeing what 6'3"/240lbs can do once it gets going. I had never broken someone's orbit before. :rofl:

msu_grad_121
05-07-2011, 01:40
While admittedly I'm no expert, I did take Krav for a while, and have been mandated to stay proficient in PPCT for going on 10 years now. I will admit that Krav is WAY uglier than pretty much anything going, but the few times I've used it, it works like a charm. Like Cochese said, these are techniques that are easily learned and nearly foolproof to retain.

With regard to your observations, here's my take on it:

1. YES! Personally, if you're getting 16 hours of Krav training, you're going to be all the better for it, but in my opinion, it should be followed PROMPTLY by a class on report writing.

2. I personally found the techniques in Krav to be a great deal simpler than PPCT, if only due to the fact that in my opinion the latter focuses on striking specific points, whereas the former focuses on striking general areas (a la your fruity pebbles).

3. Sight unseen, I can wholeheartedly agree with this. One of the guest instructors at the school I was attending was some IDF Special Forces somethin-er-other and seemed to have a hard time realizing that the answer to every LE situation isn't "and then you break their neck." But I digest... :supergrin:

4. I can agree with the overall statement that Krav is (or at least is percieved to be) much more aggressive, but with regard to the weapon retention specifically, I was taught that you're addressing the threat (the hand on your weapon) while simultaneously throwing a strike (punch, kick, pocket full of sand, et al). I've heard it called "bursting" as well as some other things, but if your instructor had you doing those parts of the techniques seperately, I'd see if I could pull them aside and get their take on that, if for no other reason than clarification.

As I said, I've only used Krav a few times (for some reason I seem to revert to my wrestling days), but when I applied it, it worked like a charm, so I've got a somewhat slanted view on it. If nothing else, put a few of the things you're comfortable with in your bag o' tricks and pull em out if/when you need them. Hope you enjoyed yourself, and hope we were able to help!

P.S. I gotta agree with Cochese, it's amazing what a properly delivered forearm strike can do from someone who has been described as "lineman-esque." :wavey:

volsbear
05-07-2011, 06:55
We looked at KM. The bosses decided that the public perception that it's just "street fighting" might not bode well should we end up in a civil suit. So now we're looking at a program called Natural Response Control Tactics. We'll see.

steveksux
05-07-2011, 08:02
This year my department subjected me to 16 hours of introduction to "Krav Maga" which, near as I can tell, is Hebrew for "Punch 'em in the junk." Some followup training from a master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEsbY1-9UYg)would be a good idea. Those moves should be engrained in muscle memory to be instinctive and instantaneous to be maximally effective. No time to hesitate in that situation, or think about what needs to be done. Not sure if 16 hours is enough to engrain it.

Randy

yamen1999
05-07-2011, 08:14
I am not LE but I do practice Krav. If you read the history of Krav it was never ment to be PC. It is very effective and easy to learn. The other nice thing about Krav is even very petit women can use it very effectively. I can understand the position LE is in when it comes to public perception on the use of force. I personally think LE has their hand tied to much by the PC crowd. Thanks for doing what you do.

Sharkey
05-07-2011, 08:37
Pretty much what everyone said - KM is the way to go.

I'm not impressed with any PPCT stuff except for the spontaneous knife defense instructor class I took a decade ago. Simplistic and it works with easy muscle memory which is what I am looking for.

Dragoon44
05-07-2011, 08:47
I am a longtime practitioner of standard and LE KM. There is a huge difference. I started in 2006. I was introduced at a previous PD and ended up going to a private school.

The thing about KM, is it isn't an art which requires continued learning. That's not the way the Israelis intended it. Once you learn it (its very easy), you need only stay proficient. There isn't a continued learning element like other arts.

My new department moved to KM this year as well. It was interesting seeing my liberal panty waist department put their own twist on it.

One other good thing is that it let's you articulate just about any strike. There is nothing quite like having a guy try a little.active aggression and reaping a no.3 elbow. :cool: its also quite astounding seeing what 6'3"/240lbs can do once it gets going. I had never broken someone's orbit before. :rofl:

And here I thought the only martial art you knew was "Gun Pimping."

:tongueout::rofl:

Sam Spade
05-07-2011, 09:21
Here's what administrators don't quite get (okay, they don't get a lot, and this is one thing):

Cops have to have two very different modes. While we spend most of our lives controlling and arresting people (hence PPCT) an arrest can go bad in an instant and we're now in a hand-to-hand fight for our lives. It's difficult making that transition, and the transition is rare anyway. While PPCT is not well-designed for that switch, most administrators don't care too much--dealing with the everyday liability in an arrest is more important.

Sometimes you just need to eff somebody up. Krav does it, and gives you a system and series of trained responses instead of just going Neandertal on his butt. The DT trainers, who're going to be the expert witnesses for the department, need to be fully on-board. It's better that every cop's on-board and can articulate things, but that may not be practical in a large agency. But where the rookie can say that he fell back on training, the trainer has to have more detail.

The next issue is to have a system whose techniques allows a seamless transition from making an arrest to survival. Krav's not quite there, IMO. But it's way ahead of a system designed for mere control.

Dragoon44
05-07-2011, 10:50
Here's what administrators don't quite get (okay, they don't get a lot, and this is one thing):

Cops have to have two very different modes. While we spend most of our lives controlling and arresting people (hence PPCT) an arrest can go bad in an instant and we're now in a hand-to-hand fight for our lives. It's difficult making that transition, and the transition is rare anyway. While PPCT is not well-designed for that switch, most administrators don't care too much--dealing with the everyday liability in an arrest is more important.

Sometimes you just need to eff somebody up. Krav does it, and gives you a system and series of trained responses instead of just going Neandertal on his butt. The DT trainers, who're going to be the expert witnesses for the department, need to be fully on-board. It's better that every cop's on-board and can articulate things, but that may not be practical in a large agency. But where the rookie can say that he fell back on training, the trainer has to have more detail.

The next issue is to have a system whose techniques allows a seamless transition from making an arrest to survival. Krav's not quite there, IMO. But it's way ahead of a system designed for mere control.

+1 I have maintained for a long time that many officers are being hurt and even killed because they can't or won't transition from "arrest mode" to "blitz their ass mode".

txleapd
05-07-2011, 11:32
KM is a military martial art. Military forms of hand to hand combat are lethal in nature (or are supposed to be, don't get me started on MCMAP). I would be hesitant to use any of the old school LINE training from my early days in the Corps on the street as a cop, because it's not geared to subduing an opponent, it's geared toward killing them ASAP.

It's funny you brought LINE training. The DT taught when I went through the academy was a modified version of LINE training (minus the finishing moves), with some basic ground fighting (BJJ) sprinkled in.

Now we have changed our DT to Krav Maga.

mpow66m
05-07-2011, 11:56
http://scars.com/member-sample

Dukeboy01
05-07-2011, 12:20
Thanks for the responses. I think we can all agree that Krav is definitely better than PPCT if your goal is to injure or kill your opponent, especially with your bare hands.

BULLRUNN
05-07-2011, 15:10
You do what you have to do to go home at the end of your shift. If you punch them in the junk so be it you just need to be able to justify what and why and how you did it. An officer just knocked a guys teeth out and when he wrote the report it sailed through with flying colors...were not trained to knock teeth out but hey if you write the report correctly your good. take a TACTICAL wrighting course... and never mind the combat stuff...

steveksux
05-07-2011, 16:00
You do what you have to do to go home at the end of your shift. If you punch them in the junk so be it you just need to be able to justify what and why and how you did it.I have no financial interest in this school, and I highly recommend this particular school for that particular martial arts discipline (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEsbY1-9UYg)

Randy

SpoiledBySig
05-07-2011, 16:19
Krav Maga...FTW!

silverado_mick
05-07-2011, 16:39
+1 I have maintained for a long time that many officers are being hurt and even killed because they can't or won't transition from "arrest mode" to "blitz their ass mode".

QFT! I've seen too many guys yelling "sir, stop resisting" and dancing around with a BG when they should have been dropping him on his head.

It's funny you brought LINE training. The DT taught when I went through the academy was a modified version of LINE training (minus the finishing moves), with some basic ground fighting (BJJ) sprinkled in.

Now we have changed our DT to Krav Maga.

Interesting. The reason I used that as an example is that with the hours of repetition spent on the techniques, I'd be afraid of my training taking over and not stopping till the heel of my boot was covered in goop. Not entirely a bad thing, I know, ut tough to explain to a lawyer I would imagine :supergrin:

Hack
05-07-2011, 19:14
When dealing with malcontents I have always found that the gentle application joint locks and pressure points along with an occasional slam to a hard surface works well.

DaBigBR
05-08-2011, 11:47
Not entirely a bad thing, I know, ut tough to explain to a lawyer I would imagine :supergrin:

I could only imagine the tin-foil hat crowd reacting to somebody getting stomped by an officer using "military training."

FanForLife
05-08-2011, 14:49
The best form of training for LE is something that teaches arrest and control tactics, fighting, weapon retention, your depts policy, and constitutional law. This comes from 24 years of martial arts (primarily Filipino), 17 years of LE, and 9 years as a DT instructor. PPCT is a must for the information and basic arrest and control tactics. I've mixed in SSGT and Pekiti-Tirsia with PPCT and a lot of training from FLETC with a heavy dose of constitutional law. IMHO we are far too often told what we can't do as opposed to what we can do. A focus on liability over survival is a problem that we impose upon ourselves. You can gouge eyes, crush throats, break arms, as readily as shooting, handcuffing, spraying, tasing, etc. someone WITHOUT having to get creative in a report. Your force response is based on the threat at the time said force was used. Just explain in your report what your reason was for being there, your probable cause for the arrest, explain the resistance to the arrest and what type of threat you faced, and explain your fear. Don't embellish and don't lie. Too often I read the heroic officer report here he/she isn't afraid and show no emotion in their report. Heroism isn't an absence of fear. It's doing what your called upon to do DESPITE being afraid. Write it that way, make sure that if they assault you that you charge them with that. It's not just resisting arrest. Make your actions fit the local self defense statutes and that your description of the suspects actions are a violation of the law you're sworn to enforce.

CW Mock
05-08-2011, 17:42
I have used both now - when I started, they taught us PPCT. Last year/summer we transitioned to Krav (with some agency twists) under the acronym DTAC. The foundation of that program is Krav.

It's been almost a year now since we switched, and there is no comparison to me. PPCT was HORRIBLE. It was technical, favored retreating and pleading, and required a lot of practice to make work in a fight. More often than not, it seemed most of us tried it, and ended up rolling around or moving in circles.

Krav is different for me. Its easier to remember, easier to use and far more direct and effective. "Quit resisting" works a lot better as a verbal command when Joe Dirtball is flat on his back and his chicklets are sprinkled all over the ground in front of him. I have seen a few use of force now that ended a lot differently than they used to. No injured cops, no wrecked uniforms - just EMS evaluating a suspect, and a trip to the jail.

PPCT sucked. It had the "aura" of being a losers system. You fended off an attack and disengaged. You struck and disengaged. Everything seemed to be about disengaging and yelling "stop!" Krav is definitely geared towards ending fights quickly and roughly. It's a forward momentum kind of system that encourages tipping the scale, then stomping a mudhole in the person that tried to hurt you. Personally, I would like a system that teaches you to fight back, fight hard and win instead of one that was about backing up and yelling "quit resisting."

This is all my opinion of course. I am sure PPCT can be pretty damn effective with the right person and training. It wasn't for me and all of the guys I work with. We hated it with a passion. Krav just seems to be more effective in less training time - which lets face it, is the common denominator in policing these days. Krav is combat proven on the battlefield and streets, and that works for me. If somebody is going to step up and swing on a cop, then he/she should be expecting to be on the losing end of an ass kicking. Krav delivers that.

Dragoon44
05-08-2011, 18:15
I used the EFWCH system.

Elbows,Forearms,Walls,Car hood.

it was pretty effective.

:rofl::rofl:

volsbear
05-08-2011, 19:22
I used the EFWCH system.

Elbows,Forearms,Walls,Car hood.

it was pretty effective.

:rofl::rofl:

Wait...

Is that a similar technique to OFAK?

(old fashioned ass kicking)

Hack
05-08-2011, 20:15
Wait...

Is that a similar technique to OFAK?

(old fashioned ass kicking)

I have used that. 100% effective. Sometimes with a little monkey stomp, (oh did I say that?).

FanForLife
05-08-2011, 21:01
I used the EFWCH system.

Elbows,Forearms,Walls,Car hood.

it was pretty effective.

:rofl::rofl:

Too cool...............and too true:supergrin:
One thing, no matter the "system", is being able to turn it on and off when you have to. This is the hardest thing to teach new officers, especially with all these politically correct liberals we seem to be hiring more and more of:rollingeyes:

silverado_mick
05-09-2011, 00:36
I could only imagine the tin-foil hat crowd reacting to somebody getting stomped by an officer using "military training."

Went through a deposition last year for a civil suit. The scumbag attorney filing suit spent an hour and a half grilling me about being a "trained killer" due to my service in the Corps. Oddly worded questions that basically amounted to "so they trained you to kill with your hands?" That's the one time in my life I wished I could've traded away my service. He was actually so good that I left feeeling like a piece of garbage about being a Marine.

Islander-11
05-09-2011, 05:15
This is the second consecutive year that my department is having us do our annual DT in-service training on-line... (Nope, not kidding!) :upeyes:

I'm a LE certified Krav Maga instructor. I'm not a big guy at all (kinda built like a bridge troll). My experience has been that I've had problems when trying to use too little force in a bad situation, instead of overwhelming force, to resolve a bad situation. Krav Maga training has instilled a mindset, learned while training under stress, to be ready to explode with overwhelming force when required. It becomes automatic.

I don't think that we cops kick enough. My background was in boxing, so I'm always looking to punch. Learning to develop strong, effective kicks (not always to the junk, but a lot of them are) delivered from a strong stance can be the difference between going home or not. Krav Maga training ingrains those kicks so that they become automatic.

We win fights in two ways: Taking away our opponent's ability to fight or taking away their will to fight. I have found that a series of effective punches, kicks, knees and elbows delivered in Krav Maga fashion tend to do both very quickly. It's not pretty, it's not complicated and it is effective. Obviously, we need to have the ability to turn it on and off, but that's true in everything we do, right?

Krav Maga keeps it simple. The gun retension, gun takeaways and defense against edged weapons and blunt objects are unmatched by anything that I've ever seen. This stuff has been pressure-tested. It can be learned in a relatively short period of time. It works.

Islander-11
05-09-2011, 05:19
And as for Dragoon's EFWCF training - that's completely in keeping with the Krav Maga thought process. Use whatever you need to use to prevail in a violent situation.

If I get my butt knocked out and the bad guy can take my gun, then I'm dead and so is my partner when he shows up to help me. Losing is not an option in our business...

Panzergrenadier1979
05-09-2011, 05:58
I've been interested in Krav Maga for a while but I cannot seem to locate any classes in the Harrisburg, PA area. Anyone know a place that I don't?

sargespd
05-09-2011, 10:06
One thing that has been a thorn in my side for years is the reluctance of police agencies to acknowledge the difference between "force necessary to gain compliance/effect the arrest", and "holy **** I'm fighting for my life here!!". How many Street Survival cruiser videos do we need to watch where the cop gets beaten to a bloody pulp because no one ever told them that when the bad guy wants to fight, you can't respond with control techniques? If Krav Maga is what works for you when it comes time to defend your life, then by all means dive in.

msu_grad_121
05-09-2011, 10:44
Too cool...............and too true:supergrin:
One thing, no matter the "system", is being able to turn it on and off when you have to. This is the hardest thing to teach new officers, especially with all these politically correct liberals we seem to be hiring more and more of:rollingeyes:

I can totally agree with this, with one exception. The cops I've worked with in the ghetto seem to have a tough time turning it off, rather than turning it on. We were always ready for the other shoe to drop, but some of those guys would still want to keep the fight going after the cuffs were on. The trick is having access to overwhelming force when necessary, but being able to totally shut that part of your brain off once the fight is over.

From what I've seen, the problem my old partners had was that the "techniques" they were using weren't effective enough right from jump street, which made them angry, which made them emotionally invested in the fight, which made them drop that extra elbow or punch or knee strike after they're in cuffs.

What I like about Krav is that the techniques are so effective, you don't have time to get emotionally invested, you're just doing what you're trained to do, which allows you to keep a clearer head and flip the switch from fight to don't fight. That was always something I felt lacking in PPCT.

Of course, as sargespd said, if it's a fight for your life, do what you've gotta do! My old Krav instructor would say "I'd rather have you give them 2 more strikes than you needed to and go home at night, than 1 less than you should have and maybe not make it."

Whatever system you're going to utilize, it's our duty to stay proficient in it, and that means checking into it more than once a year at department mandated training (and don't even get me started on the on-line DT class...WTF?! :shocked:). But like so many things, you can't motivate someone to do something they don't want to do, not really. You're either born with it or you're not.

Islander-11
05-09-2011, 10:56
Whatever system you're going to utilize, it's our duty to stay proficient in it, and that means checking into it more than once a year at department mandated training (and don't even get me started on the on-line DT class...WTF?! :shocked:). But like so many things, you can't motivate someone to do something they don't want to do, not really. You're either born with it or you're not.

That really sums it up. Train as if your life depends on it, because one day it might...

Dragoon44
05-09-2011, 11:56
Different styles of fighting have their place but that place is not number 1 in the list of what is important.

Being proficient in different modes and methods of fighting is fine, but if you are not really prepared to go all out then they are not much use.

First comes how much fight is n you? or as Dave Grossman puts it, do you have a capacity for violence?

Second, can you turn that capacity on in the fraction of a second? There is a time to "get them under control" and a time to "Put them down hard". The ability to both know the difference and switch between them in fractions of a second is what counts more than what style or method you use.

I was never big into the martial arts, but I think if I were a working LEO today I would probably be taking a hard look at Krav Maga.

David Armstrong
05-09-2011, 12:30
I have been trained in a variety of disciplines, but when my son-in-law went on the street the thing I told him to learn was Krav Maga.

jethro21
05-09-2011, 13:57
I would love for my department to adopt a style of Krav Maga, unfortunately we are going the other way.....last year our chief told us we cannot punch someone in the face unless they are actively trying to do the same to us.

Our last dt training was optional involvement and we were warned in depth that we had to be very gentle on each other- staff had made it clear if anyone was injured during the training they would change it so we just watched the dt instructors demonstrations.

Hack
05-09-2011, 18:13
And as for Dragoon's EFWCF training - that's completely in keeping with the Krav Maga thought process. Use whatever you need to use to prevail in a violent situation.

If I get my butt knocked out and the bad guy can take my gun, then I'm dead and so is my partner when he shows up to help me. Losing is not an option in our business...

:agree:

Hack
05-09-2011, 18:15
Different styles of fighting have their place but that place is not number 1 in the list of what is important.

Being proficient in different modes and methods of fighting is fine, but if you are not really prepared to go all out then they are not much use.

First comes how much fight is n you? or as Dave Grossman puts it, do you have a capacity for violence?

Second, can you turn that capacity on in the fraction of a second? There is a time to "get them under control" and a time to "Put them down hard". The ability to both know the difference and switch between them in fractions of a second is what counts more than what style or method you use.

I was never big into the martial arts, but I think if I were a working LEO today I would probably be taking a hard look at Krav Maga.

KM is really good from what I have read about it. Unfortunately no one close enough teaches it. OFAK will do for now.

x_out86
05-10-2011, 07:28
I have studied martial arts for about 10 years. Like has already been said, no matter the style, proficiency and the ability to flip that switch are the real factors at play.

I have done some work with KM. I am a fan since it is a simple, straightforward, combat style. The point behind it is to win the fight as fast as possible. This is the reason that Bruce Lee developed his style called "Jeet Kune Do". He said there was too much tradition and wasted movement in traditional styles. Instead of doing 3 moves to defeat an arm grab...stomp on your opponents instep. They will let go of your arm.

One of the problems with the DT training is that it gets officer in the wrong mindset. They get stuck in the mindset that they can only be defensive, when we all know that when its go-time....we damn well better play offense. We dont throw elbows because a guy hit us first....we ALWAYS stay one step ahead. A lot of that seems to have been forgotten because of the fear that was drilled into us by Admin about liability.

We are all still entitled to the privilege of self-defense no matter what. When your ass in on the line, do what you have to in order to win. I would much rather deal with my departments admin than have my family bury me. Despite the fact that they cant come out and say it, your department should feel the same way.

I leave you with a few words from a very intelligent man...

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

-George Orwell

Mayhem like Me
05-10-2011, 14:08
I personally have my own move "the Hammer" I use a Hammer first to the side of the neck, Clavical , or nose if needed..
The nose causes more paperwork because it breaks and requires a hospital visit.

My on the move ,get out of my way ,manuver is a elbow/horitontal forearm to the chest or Brachial Plexus tie in.. very effective at moving people ussually ends with them sailing through the air backwards.

joel724
05-10-2011, 16:33
KM is a military martial art. Military forms of hand to hand combat are lethal in nature (or are supposed to be, don't get me started on MCMAP). I would be hesitant to use any of the old school LINE training from my early days in the Corps on the street as a cop, because it's not geared to subduing an opponent, it's geared toward killing them ASAP.


Ahhh Silverado the old LINE training from USMC! How I miss that training! Your right its not street applicable, however those leg sweeps are killer!!!!

Dragoon44
05-10-2011, 18:02
My on the move ,get out of my way ,manuver is a elbow/horitontal forearm to the chest or Brachial Plexus tie in.. very effective at moving people ussually ends with them sailing through the air backwards.

that is the one i used in high risk warrant service. after yelling, police search warrant get down11 if they didn't get down by the time I reached them they got knocked down with that maneuver.

it's very effective.

:supergrin:

x_out86
05-11-2011, 20:01
I personally have my own move "the Hammer" I use a Hammer first to the side of the neck, Clavical , or nose if needed..
The nose causes more paperwork because it breaks and requires a hospital visit.

My on the move ,get out of my way ,manuver is a elbow/horitontal forearm to the chest or Brachial Plexus tie in.. very effective at moving people ussually ends with them sailing through the air backwards.
Is that kind of like the counter move to anybody reaching out to grab you...by which you respond by knocking their hands away and using their throat to "direct" them against something to perform a vertical stun?

Not like I have ever done that or anything...:whistling:

Hack
05-11-2011, 21:07
Is that kind of like the counter move to anybody reaching out to grab you...by which you respond by knocking their hands away and using their throat to "direct" them against something to perform a vertical stun?

Not like I have ever done that or anything...:whistling:

*ahem* I cannot confirm or deny using such procedures.:whistling:

Mayhem like Me
05-12-2011, 19:59
that is the one i used in high risk warrant service. after yelling, police search warrant get down11 if they didn't get down by the time I reached them they got knocked down with that maneuver.

it's very effective.

:supergrin:
That is exactly my MO if I get to you before you hit the ground,I make the introduction for you.................:rofl:

I once had a guy behind me ask me what I did because he saw the feet of the guy I hit over my head, he said it looked painful when the guy landed on his head... its all in the rotation of the trunk...

Dragoon44
05-12-2011, 21:19
ts all in the rotation of the trunk...

That is one of the things i always taught my guys, you don't hit with your fist or forearm, you hit with your entire upper body. that torque delivered by the snap of the upper torso is what delivers the power.

Hack
05-12-2011, 21:36
That is one of the things i always taught my guys, you don't hit with your fist or forearm, you hit with your entire upper body. that torque delivered by the snap of the upper torso is what delivers the power.

Works well for body slams too.

Dragoon44
05-12-2011, 22:46
Works well for body slams too.

Stop already, I am getting all teary eyed and nostalgic!

:supergrin: :rofl:

Mayhem like Me
05-13-2011, 04:27
I laughed, I cried, I pooped.... a little

Islander-11
05-13-2011, 05:27
Here's an article about Krav Maga law enforcement training. I took my first law enforcement Krav Maga training certification class with Jon Pascal, the instructor mentioned in this item.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123255284