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Spydermonkey
05-15-2011, 18:23
This was on tonight, vid link in case anyone missed it


60 Mins Sovereign Citizens Video (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7366128n&tag=contentMain;contentBody)

golls17
05-15-2011, 18:32
Tagged for later.

In the academy, we watched a video about Sovereign Citizens and a few things to keep in mind that might point to them (fake plates, strange legal papers, etc.). Scary stuff.

Krauty
05-15-2011, 19:08
Very good episode.

Rohniss
05-15-2011, 19:38
Our CLC's this year were geared towards them.

Watching the video...

ETA:

Read the Article too... Superb...

Like the Chief I might even like it if these bozos decide to come after me physically... My only concern is that they are like Super Zombies... No Hearts... Or Brains... 40mm time?

meeko
05-15-2011, 23:28
Our CLC's this year were geared towards them.

Watching the video...

ETA:

Read the Article too... Superb...

Like the Chief I might even like it if these bozos decide to come after me physically... My only concern is that they are like Super Zombies... No Hearts... Or Brains... 40mm time?


I deal with them in the Federal Buearu of Prisons. They are some of the most crying inmates I have ever seen. Although they are dangerous on the street. They normally don't come after you physically at first. They try to scare you into submission by overwelming you with a lot of fake forms etc. They even have filed UCC liens on GOV and prison officials thinking that will win their relese. They get 5 more years for doing it but they are all knuckle heads and think they are onto something.

If your department does not offer training on them I would recommend going somewhere to get some. A lot more people are "adopting" that ideology. And they are very dangerous.

mrsurfboard
05-15-2011, 23:54
I'm pretty sure a few of the Open Carry crowd over in the "Carry Issues" forum belong to this movement or at the very least share many of their beliefs.

El_Ron1
05-16-2011, 00:17
60 Minutes... friend of America.

OldCurlyWolf
05-16-2011, 00:55
I'm pretty sure a few of the Open Carry crowd over in the "Carry Issues" forum belong to this movement or at the very least share many of their beliefs.


That is a rather Broad Brush. That is like saying that a few bad LEO'S make all LEO's bad. I know that isn't an accurate statement. Neither is yours.

Hack
05-16-2011, 02:13
I have been hearing about this stuff for quite some time now. It's no joke, and I take it very seriously. Some of these people are more than willing to show us what death is like; very dangerous people.

mrsurfboard
05-16-2011, 02:35
That is a rather Broad Brush. That is like saying that a few bad LEO'S make all LEO's bad. I know that isn't an accurate statement. Neither is yours.

That's why I said a few over there, not most, all or any resemblance of the same. If you followed some of the anti cop, anti government posters over there, you would agree with me.

Navy HMC
05-16-2011, 02:59
Honest question here: Why are these oxygen theives tolerated? In all curiosity, is hter any - even a thread of legitamacy to their actions? And since I assume that the answer to question is "NO!!!", Why not go after them when they do something stupid and illegal? That I know of, at least 2 officers have been shot and killed by these morons and a number more have been involved in shootouts with them.

Guys, it's a matter of survival, why let them stay on the street if there are good charges against them. Fraud comes to mind with the leins they do...

Oh, and happy National Law Enfocrement day though a little late.

Rohniss
05-16-2011, 05:40
That's why I said a few over there, not most, all or any resemblance of the same. If you followed some of the anti cop, anti government posters over there, you would agree with me.

I agree with you.

Guys, it's a matter of survival, why let them stay on the street if there are good charges against them. Fraud comes to mind with the leins they do...

Agreed...

Lots of laws out there you can arrest a known dirtbag for... and if they resist... Happy Times...

I deal with them in the Federal Buearu of Prisons. They are some of the most crying inmates I have ever seen. Although they are dangerous on the street. They normally don't come after you physically at first. They try to scare you into submission by overwelming you with a lot of fake forms etc. They even have filed UCC liens on GOV and prison officials thinking that will win their relese. They get 5 more years for doing it but they are all knuckle heads and think they are onto something.

If your department does not offer training on them I would recommend going somewhere to get some. A lot more people are "adopting" that ideology. And they are very dangerous.

Yeah I'm pretty well versed in the Sovereign ****izen Movement... They've got a "church" round about these parts and are frequent guests at our establishment... Like I said the CLC's this year were about them, presented by DHS...

In my estimation they are traitors or a "mad dog" and need to be dealt with as such... But alas, its a kinder gentler country we have nowadays... even in Alabama... *sigh*

BlackPaladin
05-16-2011, 05:49
Looks like a good group to get rid of, by any means.

Morris
05-16-2011, 11:15
Had one wander into court a few weeks ago. Got shot down quick from what I heard. :)

Kegs
05-16-2011, 11:24
Hey thanks for posting this link - I missed 60 minutes last night because I was at a Michigan militia/sovereign citizen/open carry meeting.

Morris
05-16-2011, 11:37
because I was at a Michigan militia/sovereign citizen/open carry meeting

In other words, a sewing party?

Kegs
05-16-2011, 11:53
In other words, a sewing party?

That would be SEWING PARTY. come on get it right. :rofl:

Patchman
05-16-2011, 19:29
I'm pretty sure a few of the Open Carry crowd over in the "Carry Issues" forum belong to this movement or at the very least share many of their beliefs.

I would just say that I would not be surprised.

But sharing beliefs or having membership is not crossing the line. No matter what others do, LE plays by the rules. Be careful of overarching statements. Always remember that although justice grinds on slowly, it grinds on.

OldCurlyWolf
05-16-2011, 22:18
That's why I said a few over there, not most, all or any resemblance of the same. If you followed some of the anti cop, anti government posters over there, you would agree with me.

I actually post on OC.org quite often, I am a former LEO and I do NOT agree with you.

kirgi08
05-16-2011, 22:25
tagged.

mrsurfboard
05-16-2011, 23:29
I actually post on OC.org quite often, I am a former LEO and I do NOT agree with you.

I don't believe I ever mentioned OC.org. I was speaking of some of the poster over in the "carry issues" section of this board. And you don't have to agree with me. There is a hate of LE and government by some in that section.

Rohniss
05-17-2011, 00:00
I don't believe I ever mentioned OC.org. I was speaking of some of the poster over in the "carry issues" section of this board. And you don't have to agree with me. There is a hate of LE and government by some in that section.

Don't even have to go back into that dark hole, it shows up in GnG regularly.

RogueUK
05-17-2011, 03:33
That's a fascinating link, thank you. There's increasing problems with the same kind of people over here. I've never met one who could actually give a legal basis for their belief except "it's the common law, innit" :upeyes:



http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/8894423.UPDATED__Protestors_storm_court_and__arrest__judge_in_chaotic_scenes/

As he emerged from the court surrounded by his supporters, Mr Hayes said: "The judges are breaking the law in their own courts.

"I asked him (Mr Peake) if he was serving under his oath of office.

"I asked three times for him to confirm this and he refused.

"So I civilly arrested the judge and I called upon some people in the court to assist me in this.

"They were acting lawfully and the police should not have arrested them."

OldCurlyWolf
05-17-2011, 07:05
I don't believe I ever mentioned OC.org. I was speaking of some of the poster over in the "carry issues" section of this board. And you don't have to agree with me. There is a hate of LE and government by some in that section.

My mistake on the OC.org thing.

There is an irrational hate by some on any subject you care to mention. The question is whether or not it is a significant number or not.

MeefZah
05-17-2011, 08:03
Excellent, thanks!

Edit, just emailed the link to my co-workers (thank god it's only 13 minutes long, some have short attention spans).

"If they want to come after me...I might even like it!" God bless ya, Chief.

Free Radical
05-17-2011, 08:07
I once had a neighbor that was of the Sovereign Citizen mind set. He could tell you a dozen reasons why the Feds had no rights to collect income taxes.

He doesn't live there anymore. His property was seized for failure to pay his taxes.

doneroman
05-17-2011, 08:45
I grew up in an area in the 70s/80s that was heavy with posse and militia during that recession of the 80s. We now have an entire county in that same region that is being run by anti-gubment religious zealots, who took out contracts on almost every single official in the county government.

If your agency has restrictions on your off-duty carry, consider another agency. The Southern Poverty Law Center, another hate target for the sovereigns, has been studying these folks closely for some years now. Have your agency subscribe to their magazine for better details on their MO, and those like them.

If only they put that basic energy and focus into something like growing food, or holding a job, or getting an education, or finding something they like to do other than hating the government.

The summer I was in Basic Training in MO, 4 State Troopers were shot dead during traffic stops by "Soverign Citizens" over 20 years ago. It's not a new thing, unfortunately.

meeko
05-17-2011, 17:02
If your agency has restrictions on your off-duty carry, consider another agency.

don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!

Rabbi
05-17-2011, 17:22
don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!

An agency isnt "overrulling" LEOSA. They can set a policy against it though. You wont have any legal ramifications but you may very well have administrative issues (up to and including loss of your job)

LEOSA doesnt have anything to do with the policies of your agencies. It just allows you to be exempt from prosecution if you carry.

doneroman
05-17-2011, 20:19
don't know if I understand where you are coming from and not to Hi Jack the thread but how can an agency overrule HR218? I understand there are some administraitors that don't like it but it is federal Law unless you somehow don't fit the criteria!

Agency policy, in one County I was sworn in is/was, once you left that county you were like any other citizen in the state and subject to prosecution for carry. (WI has no CC.)

I don't know what you mean by .." you don't fit the criteria!", but your statement obviously shows some education weakness on your part of L.E. off-duty carry.

meeko
05-17-2011, 20:27
Agency policy, in one County I was sworn in is/was, once you left that county you were like any other citizen in the state and subject to prosecution for carry. (WI has no CC.)

I don't know what you mean by .." you don't fit the criteria!", but your statement obviously shows some education weakness on your part of L.E. off-duty carry.

I understand that but they can't go against a Federal Law. I work for the Federal Buerau of Prisons and we are covered, however our administration drug their feet at first and it took several people including the union to basically call them on it. I am by no means a trouble maker but if your administration is wrong I would suggest calling them on it and taking it to court. If you meet the criteria they will have a hard time justifing why they want to go against federal law. JMHO

furioso2112
05-17-2011, 21:00
Hey thanks for posting this link - I missed 60 minutes last night because I was at a Michigan militia/sovereign citizen/open carry meeting.

Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia? Check out their website. They invited me to their family-friendly picnic last Spring, at the DNR range in southeast MI. They are a particular organization, not a general term for all militia members in MI (many of whom might be insurrectionists). I am not a member, and don;t know much about them, but it's been old for a while to hear jokes about the MI militia when people find out I'm from MI and am not anti-gun.

Rabbi
05-17-2011, 21:31
I understand that but they can't go against a Federal Law. I work for the Federal Buerau of Prisons and we are covered, however our administration drug their feet at first and it took several people including the union to basically call them on it. I am by no means a trouble maker but if your administration is wrong I would suggest calling them on it and taking it to court. If you meet the criteria they will have a hard time justifing why they want to go against federal law. JMHO

You still are missing what HR218 is.

(this is the important passage)

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html


(d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

It could just as easily say "may conduct police duties without a uniform..."

However, your AGENCY sure as hell can set a policy that states "We will not conduct police duties without a uniform"

Again, an agencies policies can tell you that you may not carry a firearm off duty. The penalty would be administrative...why, because HR 218 means it cant be CRIMINAL.

Morris
05-18-2011, 09:44
Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia?

For better or for worse, in the 90s, the MM pimped themselves out to every media outlet to get attention. The spotlight was on them and they reveled in it. So they garnered attention that has extended decades future because they were media hounds for awhile.

I find myself more in caution of the silent types, the ones that shun media attention. They are the ones to likely explode into their version of "righteous rage" against anyone in authority.

DaBigBR
05-18-2011, 09:55
Had one wander into court a few weeks ago. Got shot down quick from what I heard. :)

We had an officer stop one a couple of months ago. He arrested him on a warrant (I think), and issued him a couple of citations. Since the jail here has a revolving door (powered by the courthouse), he was released ROR in the morning on his warrants and had an initial appearance set on the tickets. He started nailing us with various "subpoeanas" on the tickets almost immediately.

When it came time to initial appearance time on the tickets, somebody who claimed to be the "administrator for <NAME>" appeared for him. The judge was not impressed and ordered the "administrator" held on a $1000 cash bond on each ticket (knowing that it was our guy). After he sat in the pokey for two weeks, another judge reviewed the bond and decided that since the defendant had been required to personally appear at the initial and nobody claiming to be the defendant had been there, that they would just enter a conviction and judgment in the amount of the unsecured appearance bond (all citations here have an unsecured bond, which is 1.5x the fine + court costs that is the amount they owe if they FTA) and released him from jail.

meeko
05-19-2011, 04:09
You still are missing what HR218 is.

(this is the important passage)

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html


(d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

It could just as easily say "may conduct police duties without a uniform..."

However, your AGENCY sure as hell can set a policy that states "We will not conduct police duties without a uniform"

Again, an agencies policies can tell you that you may not carry a firearm off duty. The penalty would be administrative...why, because HR 218 means it cant be CRIMINAL.


My Agency does. In BOP we have no arrest powers off duty however we are still covered. HR218 doesn't state a difference in off duty or on as far as arrest powers or several other criteria. There are a dozen different ways our adminisrtation in DC tried to circumvent it so they could tell us "NO". I suggest if you are with an agency that is doing that you should take it up with DOJ or take it through the court system.

Good luck

Rabbi
05-19-2011, 09:59
My Agency does. In BOP we have no arrest powers off duty however we are still covered. HR218 doesn't state a difference in off duty or on as far as arrest powers or several other criteria. There are a dozen different ways our adminisrtation in DC tried to circumvent it so they could tell us "NO". I suggest if you are with an agency that is doing that you should take it up with DOJ or take it through the court system.

Good luck

Your posts doesnt make a lot of sense to me based on what I said. Are you still taking the stance that an agency can not make a policy that you can not carry off duty?

fatfred
05-28-2011, 19:07
Please be careful of swallowing everything the Southern Poverty Law Center says. They did some great work in the past but have evolved into a big time fund raising organization. They will paint with an overbroad brush. They have accused military vets, retired LEOs and Oathkeepers as anti government militia.

Rohniss
05-28-2011, 19:11
Please be careful of swallowing everything the Southern Poverty Law Center says. They did some great work in the past but have evolved into a big time fund raising organization. They will paint with an overbroad brush. They have accused military vets, retired LEOs and Oathkeepers as anti government militia.

OathCreepers ARE not any friend of the government from what I can tell.

And the SLPC is dead on WRT to them and the Sovereign Citizen Movement (as well as Posse Commitatus).

ETA:

Furthermore, I know that they (SPLC) has no great love for LE of any stripe.

Just because you dislike/distrust the source, don't dismiss the information.

Patchman
05-28-2011, 20:19
Geez, I thought it was only me who read SPLC stuff.

I don't trust any individual organization's research or analysis and will always try to verify with a different source. Like any good investigation, one has to try and run down all the leads.

P.S. Now there's a report out that maybe Chairman Mao didn't write his own Little Red Book. So who can you really trust? :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/chairman-mao-may-not-be-the-author-of-his-little-red-book-2290164.html

NyGlockcop
05-29-2011, 08:14
The other day my partner had a car stop and I heard him ask for back up, he recognized immediately he was dealing with a sovereign citizen. The Sov citizen was a total jackass, but the kicker is, active military. Pretty crazy, needless to say my Chief had a call to his CO immediately. Also, it was one of the few times courtsey was given to active military.

MeefZah
05-29-2011, 10:28
Also, it was one of the few times courtsey was given to active military.

I hope you mean "wasn't"; I wouldn't be dong the sovereign citizens any favors, military or not. Come to think of it, especially not military ones.

Morris
05-29-2011, 13:33
Our latest SC showed up to court on his citation. Per the citing officer (who had to be in court) he was well on his way to demanding that the court hold bail in silver and gold, third person, etc. All new to her as he was quiet on the initial traffic stop.

Had to remind folks to keep tabs on their credit records to ensure bogus liens didn't start popping up.

Patchman
05-29-2011, 14:06
Why does it always come back to the Michigan Militia?

Probably because it's rolls off the tongue easily.

Like "Hanna Montana" and "Dora The Explorer."
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kegs
05-29-2011, 18:24
For better or for worse, in the 90s, the MM pimped themselves out to every media outlet to get attention. The spotlight was on them and they reveled in it. So they garnered attention that has extended decades future because they were media hounds for awhile

Ya hit the X ring.

NyGlockcop
05-30-2011, 16:44
I hope you mean "wasn't"; I wouldn't be dong the sovereign citizens any favors, military or not. Come to think of it, especially not military ones.


My bad, I meant wasn't, lol.