Felt recoil [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MinervaDoe
05-16-2011, 10:36
Mas:
With some of the light platforms available for high performance cartridges like .357 Magnum and .40 S&W, there seems to be a wide disparity of opinion regarding the felt recoil of these combinations. Aside, from physical differences between shooters, can you shed any light on the effect of bore axis or shooting stances on felt recoil?

Mas Ayoob
05-17-2011, 07:30
Almost a book-length topic, I'm afraid. Short answer:

As you're already aware, the higher bore axis lifts the muzzle more. The heavier gun, all other things being equal, will feel as if it's "kicking" less. An auto pistol firing .357 SIG 125 grain bullets at 1430 or so foot-seconds (roughly what they chrono out of my Glock 31) will "kick" markedly less than .357 Magnum 125 grain bullets out of a revolver at the same velocity. Part of that is the recoil spring assembly soaking up some of the "comeback," and part of it is the lower bore axis of the auto levering the gun upward to a lesser degree after each shot.

Construction can be a factor. Many have noted that the Glock and similar polymer frame pistols seem to deliver less felt recoil than all-steel counterparts with the same ammo, even though the polymer gun is lighter. It is believed that there is some slight flexion in the polymer frame that is soaking up some of the recoil.

Stance and grasp will do much to improve recoil control. High hand grasp. Very firm grip pressure. Upper body weight forward and driving against the gun. All of this will give you better control.

Felt recoil is obviously subjective. I hope the above is of help.

best,
Mas

MinervaDoe
05-17-2011, 10:58
I've watched a few videos lately which featured professional shooters rapid firing. It seems as if there is a trend to use an isosceles stance with a pronounced forward lean. These shooters can hold the gun very steady during rapid fire.
I just spent the last year modifying the Weaver stance I've used for twenty years into a Chapman stance (to assist with a Glock limp wristing issue). I'm not anxious to change stances again. Is the Chapman solid enough to allow a shooter to lock the gun in like I've seen shooters do with an isosceles stance?

Mas Ayoob
05-17-2011, 11:03
Yes, if it's done the way Chapman taught it.

Lock gun arm. Support arm is slightly bent, ideally with elbow pointing down, and support hand and support arm pull gun arm tightly back into its shoulder socket.

Forward leg should be slightly bent, with at least 60% of body weight on it. BRING HEAD AND SHOULDERS FORWARD OF HIPS. Flex gun side leg very slightly, and dig its heel into the ground, driving body weight forward.

Give it a shot, no pun intended, and come back and let us all know how it worked for you.

best,
Mas

MinervaDoe
05-17-2011, 13:29
I've done everything except for this.
Support arm is slightly bent, ideally with elbow pointing down, and support hand and support arm pull gun arm tightly back into its shoulder socket.
I'll try it with my support elbow dropped more like you display it in Stressfire (where your support hand appears layered over the firing hand - PPC style).
But, dropping that elbow tends to want to pull my wrist around for a cup and saucer style grip. It'll take some fiddlin' to find my comfort zone. :supergrin:

Give it a shot, no pun intended,...
Contrary to popular belief, puns are among the highest form of humor.
I'll incorporate the modification into my next range session.

Thanks

MinervaDoe
07-01-2011, 17:40
Yes, if it's done the way Chapman taught it.

Lock gun arm. Support arm is slightly bent, ideally with elbow pointing down, and support hand and support arm pull gun arm tightly back into its shoulder socket.

Forward leg should be slightly bent, with at least 60% of body weight on it. BRING HEAD AND SHOULDERS FORWARD OF HIPS. Flex gun side leg very slightly, and dig its heel into the ground, driving body weight forward.

Give it a shot, no pun intended, and come back and let us all know how it worked for you.

best,
Mas
Thanks for your help. It was very beneficial.
I spent the last month fine tuning my Chapman stance. In five trips to the range, basically, my main modification was to hold the supporting arm lower. Initially, this felt very awkward to me, but I'm stuborn and I kept retrying it. Eventually, it now feels quite comfortable. I'm beginning to believe that holding the support arm down adds several things. 1) It does seem to support the weight of the gun better. 2) Since the support arm has little extra room to travel in this position, it is easier to "index" it into the same position every time. 3) When recovering from the guns recoil, the weight of support arm brough the gun right back down on target every time.

One more nit. Do you hold the fingers on your support hand perpendicular to the ground or do they sit at an angle?

Mas Ayoob
07-01-2011, 20:35
Glad it worked for ya!

As to the finger position: Like Chapman himself, I recommend an interlocking wraparound hold, with the fingers of the support hand in the "grooves"
that form between the fingers of the firing hand. Support hand fingers would be parallel (not perpendicular to the ground, which would put you into a weaker "cup and saucer" hold).

Chapman taught a very firm grasp. Everything I've learned since, tells me he was right.

Ray personally shot with the index finger of his support hand wrapped around the front of the trigger guard. It worked for him, partly because he shot mostly with the 1911 with short trigger guard, but he could also make it work with his S&W 686 or his Beretta 92, because he had huge hands with long fingers and crushingly powerful hand strength. Few other shooters have those attributes. Ray was one of the very few people I ever saw bury the needle of a hand dynamometer (a.k.a. manumometer, or hand strength gauge) at its maximum 220 pounds of hand strength reading. That's one of the reasons why most of the rest of us put our index finger (support hand) UNDER the trigger guard.

Minerva Doe, you've done an EXCELLENT job of analyzing how the technique works. I can only add one more factor to why your pointing your elbow downward is helping you: it's also aligning the skeleto-muscuar support structure of your support arm at the optimum angle for pulling the support hand back to lock in your hold with dynamic tension.

Thanks for getting back, and please keep us all posted here on how your progress goes.

best,
Mas

MinervaDoe
10-03-2014, 12:02
.... please keep us all posted here on how your progress goes.

best,
Mas

:supergrin: You asked. Okay, my shooting is much improved. BUT, With my support arm sort of hanging down like a pendulum, I am finding that the thumb on my support hand is getting badly cut up because it sits on the magazine release on all my Glocks (9mm, 10mm, .45ACP). So I looked up some articles on thumb placement, and found a few good ones including my favorite: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/training-competition/51592-slightly-scientific-look-thumbs-forward-pistol-grip.html
So, this aggressive thumbs forward grip seemed to be a solution, but since my wrist is already "cammed" from the Chapman grip, I'm finding the additional twisting to feel very unnatural. With average sized hands, I'm thinking that building up some grip tape or putting a piece of Pachmayr rubber (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/426000/pachmayr-pac-skin-grip-tape-multi-use-5-x-20-strip-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding) next to the magazine release might be my best solution. Any ideas you might have would be greatly appreciated.

The picture included below is from the article I posted a link to (and shows a grip which moves my thumb off the magazine release) but feels strained to me with my preferred Chapman stance.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/10181352714_dd7f786773_o.jpg

Mas Ayoob
10-03-2014, 15:49
Without a picture of YOU doing it, I'm having a hard time figuring out why thumb is getting cut on mag release. (You didn't mean slide release, right?)

Try straight thumbs, or if you can, take a snapshot of your grasp on the gun and share it here.

best,
Mas

MinervaDoe
10-04-2014, 22:10
Without a picture of YOU doing it, I'm having a hard time figuring out why thumb is getting cut on mag release. (You didn't mean slide release, right?)

Try straight thumbs, or if you can, take a snapshot of your grasp on the gun and share it here.

best,
Mas
Thanks for taking a look. And, correct, I did mean magazine release.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l496/Minervadoe/IMG_1912_zps42d4074c.jpghttp://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l496/Minervadoe/IMG_1918_zpsc1650635.jpg

Mas Ayoob
10-05-2014, 04:50
Ah, that's better.

You appear to like the straight thumbs hold. Raise the right thumb just a little. This will open up more of the left grip panel. Press the "drumstick" of your left thumb against the left side of the grip-frame, a little higher than you're doing now, until the left thumb lies above the trigger guard on the left side, pointing downrange. This should clear the thumb area from the magazine release button.

Also, I see your right elbow is rolled a bit to the outside. Just experimentally, you might want to roll the elbow joint down, pointing at the ground, and make sure it's locked straight out. You may find it reduces muzzle jump for you.

Also -- I can't see from the photo -- make sure your shoulders are forward of your hips and body weight about 60% on a slightly flexed forward leg. That's the way Ray Chapman always taught it, and while that has nothing to do with the thumb getting abraded by the mag release, it gets the most recoil control, the subject of your original post.

Good luck. Send feedback. :supergrin:

Best,
Mas

MinervaDoe
10-05-2014, 19:33
Thanks for the feedback. Back to the old drawing board. It sounds like I have few adjustments to make. I think I've got the weight distribution wrong. I've got a real deep stance on my back foot. I think once I roll forward, and widen my rear foot, I'll be able to get my arms and hands more comfortably into the positions you describe.

MinervaDoe
10-07-2014, 13:18
As long as I'm experimenting, I think I'm going to try this grip. I'm pretty sure that the only reason that I changed to thumbs forward was due to an insistent instructor. Are there any other hand positions that you can recommend?http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/20060627-006.gif

Mas Ayoob
10-07-2014, 21:18
That will be a good one to try. Similar to what I went back to after years with straight thumbs. Let us know how it works for you.
best,
Mas