Anyone Have A DPMS Panther 5.56? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Anyone Have A DPMS Panther 5.56?


obiestreasures
05-16-2011, 10:59
I have a chance to get a DPMS Panther 5.56 at a great price?? and was wondering if anyone out there had any good or bad reports on that particular model?
Thanks
Ron

P.S. Here is my point. I have a S&W M&P Sport 5.56 on order at Cabelas which I have been waiting for the last five weeks and they called me this morning and said that it will take at least another 4 or 5 weeks till the S&W will come in BUT if I want they will give me the DPMS Panther 5.56 Oracle for the same price. Now the deal with Cabelas is that Iam gona get the S&W for $499. After checking out the two types I think the S&W may be worth waiting for. Iam in no hurry and can wait, what do ya think ,what would you guys do??

Facejackets
05-16-2011, 11:43
What's the price? Anything over $450 it isn't worth it

EL COLONEL
05-16-2011, 14:15
Wait !

zhix
05-16-2011, 14:22
I have no personal experience with DPMS but have had enough bad experience with other gun brands to believe that some of the horror stories are true.
As far as specs. and customer service I have always heard good things about S&W and Dad has an M&P 15 that I have handled and shot a little bit with no problems. IMO keep waiting.

bullittmcqueen
05-16-2011, 15:14
Wait!! I wouldn't take a DPMS if some one gave it to me.

glock21xxx
05-16-2011, 15:23
I have a DPMS and haven't had one problem with it....I have probably put about 2000 rounds through it to date with not one issue.....I don't see what the problem is? What is the price?

RyanNREMTP
05-16-2011, 15:26
Is the setup on it like you want or similar to the Smith and Wesson?

gsdrulz
05-16-2011, 15:46
I'd wait if only because of the much better CS from S&W if it is ever needed.

But I have also had much better luck with my old DPMS than everyone's favorite "my little pony".

zhix
05-16-2011, 17:35
I'd wait if only because of the much better CS from S&W if it is ever needed.

But I have also had much better luck with my old DPMS than everyone's favorite "my little pony".


I like my Colts' but I don't doubt what you're saying at all.
I never thought I would have so much trouble with a Stag Arms I have, considering their popularity and reputation.
I like my few years old Bushmaster also but would not buy a current production model from everything I have read.

c01
05-16-2011, 17:57
I took the DPMS Panther Oracle for the replacemenment for the S&W. I have 200 rnds through it no prob. It also has the forward assist and dust cover if that is something you want.

D

ScrappyDoo
05-16-2011, 20:57
LMFAO, if EL CORONEL tells you tro WAIT then you WAIT SON he's the GOAT OF ARs


GOAT SON, Greatest Of All Time El Coronel!

fuzzy03cls
05-17-2011, 07:43
If it was $600 or under, nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with dpms guns for 90% of shooters. Yeah so it's not "mil spec" & the problems are with that. Easily fixed with a "mil spec" BCG. The barrels are ok. I haven't seen one wear out & fail, the lowers are fine. The LPK's are fine, I use 3 in builds & not 1 has had any problem. In fact CMT makes most of the small AR parts & sells them to everyone else. The lowers are also made by a few suppliers & then sent out to whatever company to use with their watermarks.

The only issues with dpms guns right now is pricing. The AR market is saturated. There are a few good companies that do all the "mil spec" things & those guns are only about $200-300 more then what dpms sells their guns for. For most they would rather spend the extra $ for the "mil spec".

bullittmcqueen
05-17-2011, 13:22
For those who use the "parts all come from the same place" argument, please see below. It's not the parts, it's the company's QC and what parts they allow to be sold.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81237

fuzzy03cls
05-17-2011, 13:47
Every gun maker has QC problems at some point. Keep that in mind. I have heard it from all of of them.

mjkeat
05-17-2011, 13:55
For those who use the "parts all come from the same place" argument, please see below. It's not the parts, it's the company's QC and what parts they allow to be sold.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81237


Excellent point.

obiestreasures
05-17-2011, 14:29
For those who use the "parts all come from the same place" argument, please see below. It's not the parts, it's the company's QC and what parts they allow to be sold.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81237

Good point. That proves that a photo is worth a thousand words.
Thanks
Ron

will919
05-20-2011, 00:16
I have owned a DPMS Panther Lite for a few years. I have made some changes i.e., RRA NM 2 stage trigger, quad rail forearm, quick release take down pin, Hogue grip, ambidextrous safety (lefty here) and finally Nikon 3X9-40 Pro Staff scope. I couldn't be happier with it. It is quite capable of shooting 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups at one hundred yards (match grade ammo). She eats anything I feed her. All in all for my purposes she is a fine AR-15.
A gentlemen at the club I belong to shot it and was very surprised at its accuracy.
So its a A++++ for me

bmoore
05-20-2011, 11:06
Well I have an upper coming tuesday. Im doing a 20" AR-15 A2 build for a pinker and had no interest in spending 8 or 900 dollars on an uppper. I got the DPMS 20" A2 upper form Midway for 470, delivered to my door for 488. I have read that they are a fine for casual shooting and some acutally are very accurate. We will see.

bmoore
05-20-2011, 11:14
BTW.....I have a Smith and Wesson M&P15 and it is great. Never had a single issue with it. Reliable, accurate and has even dumped a couple coyotes. Great guns.

JimBianchi
05-20-2011, 11:26
I bought mine used in 2007 for $600 with a bunch of accessories.

I love it.

With match ammo it is way more than accurate enough for yotes out to 300yrd. I have had a variety of scopes on it, right now I have Bushnell 3x9x50 and it has held zero for about two years perfect.

It has eaten 4 or 5K of ammo from steel Russian to Black Hills Match and everything I can buy, even that horrendously dirty PMC. No issues with brass cased ammo ever.

I have had exactly one failure to eject after over a thousand rounds of steel cased ammo over a period two months with no cleaning. Much more reliable than the M4s I carried in the service, and far more accurate.

LOVE mine.

Best $600 I spent that year.

bmoore
05-20-2011, 11:29
I bought mine used in 2007 for $600 with a bunch of accessories.

I love it.

With match ammo it is way more than accurate enough for yotes out to 300yrd. I have had a variety of scopes on it, right now I have Bushnell 3x9x50 and it has held zero for about two years perfect.

It has eaten 4 or 5K of ammo from steel Russian to Black Hills Match and everything I can buy, even that horrendously dirty PMC. No issues with brass cased ammo ever.

I have had exactly one failure to eject after over a thousand rounds of steel cased ammo over a period two months with no cleaning. Much more reliable than the M4s I carried in the service, and far more accurate.

LOVE mine.

Best $600 I spent that year.

Good to hear.

ftw13
05-20-2011, 13:24
Wait!! I wouldn't take a DPMS if some one gave it to me.

what he said

tacticaldawg
05-21-2011, 15:21
I've had DPMS and Bushmaster and Colt and Armalite and CMMG. They're all good and bad to some degree, but Colt has the most consistency in the "quality feel". The rest of them, DPSM, Bush, Armalite, CMMG are all pretty similar. And they have the same reliability, which is perfect as long as you clean and maintain them.

bmoore
05-24-2011, 22:04
So I got my DPMS 20" A2 upper today. I must say I am pretty impressed. Packaged well, bolt locks up great, very tight all around. I inspected it cleaned it, lubed it and now I am waiting to pick up my lower on Friday. Seems very well built. Only thing I have to compare to is my Smith M&P15 but for the price it seems very well built. Time will tell after I shoot it.

Gunnut 45/454
05-25-2011, 08:08
I had my 16" carbine A2 1:9" DPMS upper on an AT lower now for about 8 months only got about 500 rounds through it all brass mostly reloads and haven't had one failure.
It's accurate and as tight as the day I bought it! It's ate everything I've fed it AE, XM193, Federal, PMC.:supergrin:

durian00
05-25-2011, 08:25
My DPMS goes bang all the time. It was my first AR that i've had for 3 years now and I changed the receiver extension to a mil spec one so I can put different stocks. Replaced the A2 with a comp. Replaced the trigger with a RRA one not out of failure but because I wanted to.

The 1/9 barrel is accurate, no complaints. the bolt hasn't failed yet. Takes all mags and mags drop free.

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 14:14
Wait!! I wouldn't take a DPMS if some one gave it to me.

I would take it. It would be a great gun to practice malfunction clearance drills on again and again and again.
pat:rofl:

bullittmcqueen
05-25-2011, 17:52
I would take it. It would be a great gun to practice malfunction clearance drills on again and again and again.
pat:rofl:

Very true.

redbrd
05-25-2011, 18:20
I had one for several years put a lot of rounds through it, never had a problem with it. Reliable and accurate. I have used many M4's several different manufacturers I have yet to really notice much of a difference in the basic rifle function.

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 19:20
I had one for several years put a lot of rounds through it, never had a problem with it. Reliable and accurate. I have used many M4's several different manufacturers I have yet to really notice much of a difference in the basic rifle function.

The weekend shooter will probably not notice the difference for a while. However if you shoot much at all you will have problems sooner than later with a DPMS.
Pat

bmoore
05-25-2011, 19:42
The weekend shooter will probably not notice the difference for a while. However if you shoot much at all you will have problems sooner than later with a DPMS.
Pat

What kind of problems? I am pinning on my DPMS 20" A2 upper to a JD lower this Firday to make a standard looking government model gun. Not trying to be a jerk but can you give me details on what I should be aware of? What were the problems with yours? I feel zero difference bewtween my DPMS and my Smith M&P15, the DPMS is a very solid, tight upper.

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 21:49
What kind of problems? I am pinning on my DPMS 20" A2 upper to a JD lower this Firday to make a standard looking government model gun. Not trying to be a jerk but can you give me details on what I should be aware of? What were the problems with yours? I feel zero difference bewtween my DPMS and my Smith M&P15, the DPMS is a very solid, tight upper.

Issues I have seen as an armorer for these weapons. (I have been responsible for more than 30 different DPMS guns in my career) Chambers that are out of spec and too tight causing extraction difficulties. Un staked carrier keys coming loose. Gas tube retaining pin that walked out or was not shipped with the rifle. DPMS has a bad reputation amoung serious end users for a reason. Do a search and see for yourself.

Pat

Foxtrotx1
05-25-2011, 21:56
Issues I have seen as an armorer for these weapons. Chambers that are out of spec and too tight causing extraction difficulties. Un staked carrier keys coming loose. Gas tube retaining pin that walked out or was not shipped with the rifle.
Pat

I can say that being more than a weekend shooter, I have lucked out and have a perfect DPMS upper. over 4k rounds in the last 6 months. All steel case.

gsdrulz
05-26-2011, 01:23
I would take it. It would be a great gun to practice malfunction clearance drills on again and again and again.
pat:rofl:

Based on my experience the rifle of choice for those drills would be the "my little pony"
First one would not fire more than 3-4 rounds without some sort of malfunction. The final one would not hit the broad side of a barn at 10 steps from the inside.

The kicker is that my old rifles, DPMS and (gasp) a OLY were 100%
That OLY went through some "heavy" use as 4 of us then 18 year old captains would send 3-4K rounds every 10 days during the salmon season. For 3 seasons And it was a boat gun to boot.
The DPMS saw about 6K rounds of wolf in six months. Be for a friend with more money than brains made a offer I could not say no to for it.

Alaskapopo
05-26-2011, 02:25
Based on my experience the rifle of choice for those drills would be the "my little pony" First one would not fire more than 3-4 rounds without some sort of malfunction. The final one would not hit the broad side of a barn at 10 steps from the inside.

The kicker is that my old rifles, DPMS and (gasp) a OLY were 100%
That OLY went through some "heavy" use as 4 of us then 18 year old captains would send 3-4K rounds every 10 days during the salmon season. For 3 seasons And it was a boat gun to boot.
The DPMS saw about 6K rounds of wolf in six months. Be for a friend with more money than brains made a offer I could not say no to for it.

Sorry but not buying it. Colt has greater quality control,they have to they hold the M4 contract and government inpsectors are in their plant on a regular basis. The way brands like DPMS are able to give you a cheaper gun is the cut down on the quality control inspections like MP testing the bolts and barrels. They cut out steps like staking the gas key and castle nut, and they use inferrior materials.

Also the broad side of a barn at 10 steps comment sure. :upeyes:

You get what you pay for I have been to numerious trainings over the years and matches and brands like Oly and DPMS are the ones going down while Tier one guns are the ones that run. You get what you pay for. Perhaps your little pony was a home built job with a Colt lower.
Pat

GSSF17
05-26-2011, 06:42
****Statement about Colt deleted**** Did not want to hi-jack.

As for the DPMS, if it can be bought for cheap and is a "weekend shooter" or plinker rifle, why not. I demand more from an AR platform, so I choose to pass on DPMS.

bmoore
05-26-2011, 07:34
Issues I have seen as an armorer for these weapons. (I have been responsible for more than 30 different DPMS guns in my career) Chambers that are out of spec and too tight causing extraction difficulties. Un staked carrier keys coming loose. Gas tube retaining pin that walked out or was not shipped with the rifle. DPMS has a bad reputation amoung serious end users for a reason. Do a search and see for yourself.

Pat

OK thanks.

jem375
05-26-2011, 08:35
We have 5 DPMS's in the family now and all they do is shoot accurately and dependable. Some of this bashing is getting to be old news now, all ours work the way they should and we have yet to have any problems with any of them...

mixflip
05-26-2011, 10:01
I recommend not buying an AR15 by brand name alone. Buy an AR15 that has the features you want/need...and a positive customer service reputation would be nice too.

That being said I owned a DPMS Panther. At the time lots of cops had DPMS rifles in their cruisers because they were decent quality and affordable if you had to buy your own work gun. I later traded it and dont miss it at all.

The Panther was a beginners gun with 4140 steel barrel, no M4 feed ramps, 1/9 twist, parts batch tested, basically a non-mil-spec budget gun...and that was fine for me at the time because all I wanted was a rifle to plink with until I figured out what I really wanted. It did that job fine with not a single malfunction.

Would I do it again? Nah. $600 can easily sit in the bank while I come up with another $200 to buy a better gun with 1/7 twist, 4150 CMV steel barrel, M4 feed ramps, individual HPT/MPI parts and overall mil-spec for the most part...for just a few bucks more.

vikingsoftpaw
05-29-2011, 22:53
P.S. Here is my point. I have a S&W M&P Sport 5.56 on order at Cabelas which I have been waiting for the last five weeks and they called me this morning and said that it will take at least another 4 or 5 weeks till the S&W will come in BUT if I want they will give me the DPMS Panther 5.56 Oracle for the same price. Now the deal with Cabelas is that Iam gona get the S&W for $499. After checking out the two types I think the S&W may be worth waiting for. Iam in no hurry and can wait, what do ya think ,what would you guys do??


I bought a DPMS Southpaw in 1997. From the factory I got a 1/8 twist stainless barrel, TiN Bolt carrier (Carrier was G.I. staked from the factory). Ambi safety.

I added a number a features to bring it up to my personal tastes. Installed Speed hammer and single stage JP trigger, 3-1/2 pound spring set. Installed spacing kit to move pistol grip back 1". Installed National Match Sights front/rear. Turner Saddlery MN Sling.

I found the fit and finish to be of a better quality than other major makers. It runs fine.

Detectorist
05-29-2011, 23:16
I had a DPMS 20" with fixed stock. Shot it a lot and it never jammed. The trigger was very sweet, very crisp let off.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one for plinking, hunting, target shooting.

Just make sure the gas key is properly staked and keep a replacement extractor kit on hand.

Moose36
03-01-2012, 10:40
Sorry but not buying it. Colt has greater quality control,they have to they hold the M4 contract and government inpsectors are in their plant on a regular basis. The way brands like DPMS are able to give you a cheaper gun is the cut down on the quality control inspections like MP testing the bolts and barrels. They cut out steps like staking the gas key and castle nut, and they use inferrior materials.

Also the broad side of a barn at 10 steps comment sure. :upeyes:

You get what you pay for I have been to numerious trainings over the years and matches and brands like Oly and DPMS are the ones going down while Tier one guns are the ones that run. You get what you pay for. Perhaps your little pony was a home built job with a Colt lower.
Pat

First off I am new to the site and look foreward to using it. Anyways I currently own two ar's one is my LMT defender that i have put a lot of money into, and it is my baby I take care of it and it has always taken care of me, my second is a DPMS oracle (that I almost diddnt buy after reading this thread) I broke the dpms in by pulling it out of the box putting a $49 truglo red dot on and sprayed 500 rds down range. It got real dirty but still went bang. Since then it has seen about 2k rds and a shotty cleaning schedule and is still kickin. It hasn't let me down yet and if it does I am only going to be out $600 not over 2k. Plus I get to have a lot more fun just shooting the thing and not worrying about hurting my "nice gun". So for those of you looking at dpms reviews I say go for it.

Javelin
03-01-2012, 10:56
First off I am new to the site and look foreward to using it. Anyways I currently own two ar's one is my LMT defender that i have put a lot of money into, and it is my baby I take care of it and it has always taken care of me, my second is a DPMS oracle (that I almost diddnt buy after reading this thread) I broke the dpms in by pulling it out of the box putting a $49 truglo red dot on and sprayed 500 rds down range. It got real dirty but still went bang. Since then it has seen about 2k rds and a shotty cleaning schedule and is still kickin. It hasn't let me down yet and if it does I am only going to be out $600 not over 2k. Plus I get to have a lot more fun just shooting the thing and not worrying about hurting my "nice gun". So for those of you looking at dpms reviews I say go for it.

Welcome. I see you resurrected a 10 month old thread.

:rofl:

Moose36
03-01-2012, 11:48
Welcome. I see you resurrected a 10 month old thread.

:rofl:

Ya I see that now, whoops!

Javelin
03-01-2012, 13:05
Ya I see that now, whoops!

I read the entire thread until I noticed AlaskaPopo's posts... he doesn't post here much anymore.

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 13:09
First off I am new to the site and look foreward to using it. Anyways I currently own two ar's one is my LMT defender that i have put a lot of money into, and it is my baby I take care of it and it has always taken care of me, my second is a DPMS oracle (that I almost diddnt buy after reading this thread) I broke the dpms in by pulling it out of the box putting a $49 truglo red dot on and sprayed 500 rds down range. It got real dirty but still went bang. Since then it has seen about 2k rds and a shotty cleaning schedule and is still kickin. It hasn't let me down yet and if it does I am only going to be out $600 not over 2k. Plus I get to have a lot more fun just shooting the thing and not worrying about hurting my "nice gun". So for those of you looking at dpms reviews I say go for it.

Guns are tools so I am not worried about scratching up a $2k plus gun. I have been a police officer for 12 years and my duties in that capacity also include being an armorer and firearms instructor. Unfortnately as an armorer I have a lot of experience with DPMS products. I have seen a 20 to 30% failure rate with their products out of the box. I have had to go through all the guns and send a few back to have their chambers opened up. The rest of the guns have had to go through and add BCM parts to get them running. Sorry but DPMS sucks. I see them going down time and time again in training for other agencies who have not gone through the trouble I have. If you want a gun to work out of the box look some where else. Sure you may be that guy who gets one that works fine. But then again you may not.

Javelin
03-01-2012, 13:22
Guns are tools so I am not worried about scratching up a $2k plus gun. I have been a police officer for 12 years and my duties in that capacity also include being an armorer and firearms instructor. Unfortnately as an armorer I have a lot of experience with DPMS products. I have seen a 20 to 30% failure rate with their products out of the box. I have had to go through all the guns and send a few back to have their chambers opened up. The rest of the guns have had to go through and add BCM parts to get them running. Sorry but DPMS sucks. I see them going down time and time again in training for other agencies who have not gone through the trouble I have. If you want a gun to work out of the box look some where else. Sure you may be that guy who gets one that works fine. But then again you may not.

Mention DPMS & Holy Crap L@@K who it is!

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 13:39
Mention DPMS & Holy Crap L@@K who it is!

Yea guys like Larry Vickers, Pat Rogers and others also seem to agree so I am in good company. I am just one man with an opinion. The OP is welcome to do a search under DPMS quality and see other peoples responses and views as well. He will quickly see that DPMS has a poor reputation for quality.


The author in the following article also observed a lot of the same problems I have seen with DPMS.


AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School

I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html

The Course:

Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.

Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/

Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.

The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.

Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.

Students:

Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.

Equipment:

Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.

DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”

Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”

Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.

HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.

Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.

Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.

Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.

Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.

Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.

Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.

Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.

Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.

As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.

My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:

Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.
Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.
3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.
Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.

This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.

This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.

My final round count: ~1200rds.

Parting thoughts:

LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.

A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.

Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?

Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.

Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.

WoodenPlank
03-01-2012, 13:48
That article pretty well covers the experience I have had with many of the brands mentioned (especially DPMS and EO Tech), and have heard from people I know that have way more experience than I do.

Javelin
03-01-2012, 13:59
Yea guys like Larry Vickers, Pat Rogers and others also seem to agree so I am in good company. I am just one man with an opinion. The OP is welcome to do a search under DPMS quality and see other peoples responses and views as well. He will quickly see that DPMS has a poor reputation for quality.


The author in the following article also observed a lot of the same problems I have seen with DPMS.


AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School

I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html

The Course:

Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.

Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/

Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.

The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.

Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.

Students:

Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.

Equipment:

Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.

DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”

Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”

Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.

HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.

Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.

Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.

Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.

Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.

Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.

Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.

Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.

Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.

As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.

My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:

Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.
Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.
3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.
Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.

This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.

This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.

My final round count: ~1200rds.

Parting thoughts:

LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.

A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.

Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?

Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.

Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.

Decent write up Pat.

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 14:27
Decent write up Pat.

I was not the author.
Pat

Javelin
03-01-2012, 14:37
I was not the author.
Pat

:rofl:

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 14:44
:rofl:

You poor thing I must have really hurt your feelings to invoke this type of childish response.
Pat

phonejack
03-01-2012, 15:07
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

Javelin
03-01-2012, 15:39
You poor thing I must have really hurt your feelings to invoke this type of childish response.
Pat

Naw not at all Pat. Just glad to see you back.

:wavey:

Moose36
03-01-2012, 16:41
Guns are tools so I am not worried about scratching up a $2k plus gun. I have been a police officer for 12 years and my duties in that capacity also include being an armorer and firearms instructor. Unfortnately as an armorer I have a lot of experience with DPMS products. I have seen a 20 to 30% failure rate with their products out of the box. I have had to go through all the guns and send a few back to have their chambers opened up. The rest of the guns have had to go through and add BCM parts to get them running. Sorry but DPMS sucks. I see them going down time and time again in training for other agencies who have not gone through the trouble I have. If you want a gun to work out of the box look some where else. Sure you may be that guy who gets one that works fine. But then again you may not.

Duly noted, I am sure that you have more experience in this department than me especially being an armorer. I guess time will tell as 1000 more rds of good ol wolf 223 is hopefully going down the barrel of my dpms this weekend!

Javelin
03-01-2012, 16:42
Where is Hail Caesar? We could have a thread party just like the good old days!

:rofl:

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 16:53
Duly noted, I am sure that you have more experience in this department than me especially being an armorer. I guess time will tell as 1000 more rds of good ol wolf 223 is hopefully going down the barrel of my dpms this weekend!

Thats great and I am not trying to be a gun snob. But my experience with DPMS has soured me. 2 years ago we hosted a downed officer extraction training with Jeff Hall as the instructor. Amoung the officers attending were two from UAA PD and they had Wolf ammo with them. Their guns could not get through a magazine without a malfunction. I told them for starters not to use Wolf because it exaserbated the problem. Then I hooked them up with some BCM extractor upgrade kits. DPMS does provide affordable guns but those costs savings come at the expense of quality control and quality materials. The old adage you get what you pay for comes in here. I am not saying you need to buy a Noveske. But there are some good choices in the middle. Again just this mans opinion based on my experience. Take care.
Pat

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 16:55
Naw not at all Pat. Just glad to see you back.

:wavey:

Sorry that I reacted the way I did. This is just the internet no reason to get worked up. Speaking of plunking down a ton of cash on a gun I just bought a SCAR 17 and I will be posting a review once I get it in.
Pat

Javelin
03-01-2012, 16:55
Duly noted, I am sure that you have more experience in this department than me especially being an armorer. I guess time will tell as 1000 more rds of good ol wolf 223 is hopefully going down the barrel of my dpms this weekend!

Alaskapopo is the paragon of DPMS-parity.

:tongueout:

Alaskapopo
03-01-2012, 16:58
Alaskapopo is the paragon of DPMS-parity.

:tongueout:

I will say one thing good about DPMS. They heavily support three gun. Which is a sport I love.
Pat