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emt1581
05-20-2011, 20:05
For $210 OTD and from what I've read about the company it seems like a nice deal. But does anyone actually own this model? What's it like? Any complaints?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

ekmek
05-20-2011, 21:43
I have the snub-nose model and have no complaints so far. A real bargain. I think these will take off like their 1911's.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 07:01
I have the snub-nose model and have no complaints so far. A real bargain. I think these will take off like their 1911's.

They've actually been out for a while now. But through the years NO ONE talks about them. Yet they are frequently out of stock and the larger model is right now over at Centerfire. But again for $210-$215 or even $225 OTD these seem like bargains for beater guns.

I've watched a few videos on them as well as the larger model M200 and M202 and no one's complained about them yet...though the complaints don't tend to show up until AFTER one's bought the gun...then the replies saying what junk theirs has been crawl out of the woodwork.

Thanks

-Emt1581

ekmek
05-21-2011, 14:12
People who bad mouth them tend to have never handled one and tend to think they're junk solely because they don't cost as much as a Ruger or Smith. I plan on shooting the crap out of mine without worrying about getting it scratched up or the finish wearing off. I'll be happy to buy more of them to keep around the house.

Bruce M
05-21-2011, 16:39
People who bad mouth them tend to have never handled one and tend to think they're junk solely because they don't cost as much as a Ruger or Smith. I plan on shooting the crap out of mine without worrying about getting it scratched up or the finish wearing off. I'll be happy to buy more of them to keep around the house.


I have handled a couple of them and they seemed good for the price, but never shot one. I would be interested to hear how it is after a few rounds.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 16:47
I have handled a couple of them and they seemed good for the price, but never shot one. I would be interested to hear how it is after a few rounds.

I've been reading about them elsewhere and I've seen a bunch of people say they have thousands of rounds through theirs. No clue what the finish/gun looks like after that but I've yet to read any real complaints on them, just cosmetic and for a cheap/beater gun that's kinda the point anyways.

I think I'll pick one up just to give it a try.

-Emt1581

HotRoderX
05-21-2011, 17:30
I am curious to here how it does for ya EMT keep us updated. I might get one as a truck gun if its as solid as there 1911's. At 200bucks and some change it getting beat around in my truck isnt a big deal.

itstime
05-21-2011, 17:50
I should take a closer look at these. I wish they had a 357. Then I would be telling you about it right now.

HotRoderX
05-21-2011, 17:51
I should take a closer look at these. I wish they had a 357. Then I would be telling you about it right now.

In a snub style gun 357mag can be pretty nasty. I pefer 38specials or 38special +P. in a small frame gun atleast.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 18:10
In a snub style gun 357mag can be pretty nasty. I pefer 38specials or 38special +P. in a small frame gun atleast.

Bingo. .357mag snubbies are NOT fun and offer little in the way of an advantage over .38spl's today.

However, if they offered a 4" .357mag I'd be all over that like white on rice in a glass of milk on a paper plate in a snow storm!!

-Emt1581

fnfalman
05-21-2011, 18:58
They look like Colts but other than that I don't know anything else about them. Seems like there's no review on them.

HotRoderX
05-21-2011, 19:00
Bingo. .357mag snubbies are NOT fun and offer little in the way of an advantage over .38spl's today.

However, if they offered a 4" .357mag I'd be all over that like white on rice in a glass of milk on a paper plate in a snow storm!!

-Emt1581

when I think snubby I think 2inches or less anything over isn't so bad. Like you said ballistically 357mag has almost no advantage out of such a short barrel

atakawow
05-21-2011, 20:18
when I think snubby I think 2inches or less anything over isn't so bad. Like you said ballistically 357mag has almost no advantage out of such a short barrel

What data do you base your conclusion from? Have a read: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

Take a close look at the results. The difference between a .38 and .357 out of a snub, using somewhat similar bullet weight, is roughly 400 ft/sec. I don't know what you shoot, but 400 ft/sec is a huge difference in velocity to me.

Here is more to compare with: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Scroll down to "Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection." Using 135 gr bullet, there is a 33% difference in muzzle energy between the two rounds. Pretty damn significant to me.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 20:27
What data do you base your conclusion from? Have a read: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

Take a close look at the results. The difference between a .38 and .357 out of a snub, using somewhat similar bullet weight, is roughly 400 ft/sec. I don't know what you shoot, but 400 ft/sec is a huge difference in velocity to me.

Here is more to compare with: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Scroll down to "Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection." Using 135 gr bullet, there is a 33% difference in muzzle energy between the two rounds. Pretty damn significant to me.

And with that extra 400fps...what additional performance would you have?

www.Boxotruth.com usually has a good amount of gel/tests on this kind of stuff rather than just charts.

-Emt1581

WiskyT
05-21-2011, 20:27
Bingo. .357mag snubbies are NOT fun and offer little in the way of an advantage over .38spl's today.

However, if they offered a 4" .357mag I'd be all over that like white on rice in a glass of milk on a paper plate in a snow storm!!

-Emt1581

The 357 has major velocity increases over the 38+P. Whether that velocity helps anything is debatable, but there is a big difference. I can shoot 158's at 1150fps with factory ammo out of my 2.25" SP101, you can't get much over 800 with a 38+P. The differences with handloading are even greater.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 20:31
The 357 has major velocity increases over the 38+P. Whether that velocity helps anything is debatable, but there is a big difference. I can shoot 158's at 1150fps with factory ammo out of my 2.25" SP101, you can't get much over 800 with a 38+P. The differences with handloading are even greater.

But the actual "help" is what I'm looking at. What can a .357mag do out of a 2" barrel that a +P .38spl cannot?

EDIT: I just thought about it and the extra oomph would give you better distance which is ironic because in a 2" package for SD we're talking typically burping smell distances when it's time to draw/shoot.

-Emt1581

WiskyT
05-21-2011, 20:39
But the actual "help" is what I'm looking at. What can a .357mag do out of a 2" barrel that a +P .38spl cannot?

-Emt1581

With a heavier bullet, at higher speed, you get more reliable expansion and deeper penetration. In a 38 snub, the light bullets don't penetrate as much, and the heavier bullets stand a good chance of not expanding. A 158 at 1150 will expand and penetrate.

BUT, I have a SW442:supergrin:

emt1581
05-21-2011, 20:47
With a heavier bullet, at higher speed, you get more reliable expansion and deeper penetration. In a 38 snub, the light bullets don't penetrate as much, and the heavier bullets stand a good chance of not expanding. A 158 at 1150 will expand and penetrate.

BUT, I have a SW442:supergrin:

What you're saying makes sense but I'd want to see some realistic tests that prove it before I submit to it.

In my experience the only thing .357mag gave me compared to .38spl out of the 2" barrel were MUCH slower follow-ups and a sore hand.

-Emt1581

WiskyT
05-21-2011, 20:54
What you're saying makes sense but I'd want to see some realistic tests that prove it before I submit to it.

In my experience the only thing .357mag gave me compared to .38spl out of the 2" barrel were MUCH slower follow-ups and a sore hand.

-Emt1581

The only way to prove it would be to hire on as a merc and run around Libya with a 357 snubby. Bring 38's and 357's find out which ammo works best.

fnfalman
05-21-2011, 20:56
When you shoot a .357 Mag round out of a snubbie, even if you were to miss the target, you'd light that mutha on fire with the flamethrower muzzle blast. Of course, said muzzle blast also blinds you as well, so you both get to play shootin'-while-blinded game.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 21:01
The only way to prove it would be to hire on as a merc and run around Libya with a 357 snubby. Bring 38's and 357's find out which ammo works best.

...and I bet I'd have the only such wheel guns over there. Just to fit in I'd mount them in the bed of my S10 on a turret.

-Emt1581

atakawow
05-21-2011, 21:20
But the actual "help" is what I'm looking at. What can a .357mag do out of a 2" barrel that a +P .38spl cannot? What can a 10mm do that a 40 SW cannot?

EDIT: I just thought about it and the extra oomph would give you better distance which is ironic because in a 2" package for SD we're talking typically burping smell distances when it's time to draw/shoot.

-Emt1581

Same bullet weight, one fast, one slow, the one going faster WILL generate more power, no matter how you spin it. The issue of whether you need the extra power or not is highly subjective and it is a another discussion of itself.

My argument is not about which caliber is 'better.' My argument is to point out the fallacy that roams the internet regarding the topic of ".357 mag out of a snub barrel offers no ballistic advantage over the .38 spl."

emt1581
05-21-2011, 21:25
Same bullet weight, one fast, one slow, the one going faster WILL generate more power, no matter how you spin it. The issue of whether you need the extra power or not is highly subjective and it is a another discussion of itself.

My argument is not about which caliber is 'better.' My argument is to point out the fallacy that roams the internet regarding the topic of ".357 mag out of a snub barrel offers no ballistic advantage over the .38 spl."

My main argument is not that the .357mag doesn't have more fps. but rather those extra fps. won't create a significant difference in the performance/capability of the round/bullet. Wiskey did make a good point but, again, how do we test it? I looked over on theboxotruth.com and found nothing for us.

-Emt1581

atakawow
05-21-2011, 21:26
What you're saying makes sense but I'd want to see some realistic tests that prove it before I submit to it.

In my experience the only thing .357mag gave me compared to .38spl out of the 2" barrel were MUCH slower follow-ups and a sore hand.

-Emt1581

What other tests do you need? It is not rocket science. Same bullet weight/mass traveling at different speed. Faster speed will generate a much greater impact.

Follow-up shots have zero relevant when comparing the ballistic potential between calibers. Again, this debate isn't about which caliber is 'better' to conceal carry with. This is a debate about the ballistic difference between a .357 and a .38 out of a snub.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 21:31
What other tests do you need? It is not rocket science. Same bullet weight/mass traveling at different speed. Faster speed will generate a much greater impact.

Follow-up shots have zero relevant when comparing the ballistic potential between calibers. Again, this debate isn't about which caliber is 'better' to conceal carry with. This is a debate about the ballistic difference between a .357 and a .38 out of a snub.

I'm talking about potential...in regard to the effect the bullet will have on the target when comparing the two.

I've already said several times, velocity will be different.

-Emt1581

atakawow
05-21-2011, 21:33
My main argument is not that the .357mag doesn't have more fps. but rather those extra fps. won't create a significant difference in the performance/capability of the round/bullet. Wiskey did make a good point but, again, how do we test it? I looked over on theboxotruth.com and found nothing for us.

-Emt1581

A 33% increase of muzzle energy is not significant? One does not need a visual test to tell the difference. Same bullet profile, same weight, same density, shot out of the same gun. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

emt1581
05-21-2011, 21:40
A 33% increase of muzzle energy is not significant? One does not need a visual test to tell the difference. Same bullet profile, same weight, same density, shot out of the same gun. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

A "visual test" is how you determine if those figures mean anything in the end.

Unless you can show ballistic gel or some other similar setup that will show us what the extra fps does those numbers just mean the bullet goes faster. Tells you nothing about how the bullet will yaw/penetrate/fragment/mushroom/etc.

-Emt1581

HotRoderX
05-21-2011, 22:02
What data do you base your conclusion from? Have a read: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

Take a close look at the results. The difference between a .38 and .357 out of a snub, using somewhat similar bullet weight, is roughly 400 ft/sec. I don't know what you shoot, but 400 ft/sec is a huge difference in velocity to me.

Here is more to compare with: http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Scroll down to "Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection." Using 135 gr bullet, there is a 33% difference in muzzle energy between the two rounds. Pretty damn significant to me.

Just because your getting a extra 400 ft/sec on paper does not necessarily mean it will translate to a advantage in real life which is what I was talking about. Lets say for a min we real world tested a snub in 357mag. then in 38special +p using the same gun. Lets say for a min that the 357 performed in a real world test 15-20% better then the 38special +P. That's nothing to sneeze at so we decide to test follow up shots ability to hit the target. Follow up shots and hitting the target are very important factors in a SD weapon. The 38special +P will win more then likely win this category with most people. So that little 15-20% advantage is negated. If I can only get 1-2 shots off in the time I can get 3-4 shots off then the smaller caliber is superior. Not to mention if I can hit my target 2-3 times with the smaller caliber and only 1 time with the bigger caliber then once more we are back to the smaller caliber is superior.

fnfalman
05-21-2011, 22:08
What other tests do you need? It is not rocket science. Same bullet weight/mass traveling at different speed. Faster speed will generate a much greater impact.

Follow-up shots have zero relevant when comparing the ballistic potential between calibers. Again, this debate isn't about which caliber is 'better' to conceal carry with. This is a debate about the ballistic difference between a .357 and a .38 out of a snub.

What do you mean "follow-up shots have zero relevant"? Follow up shots have every relevance!!! Are you claiming that your first shot will be the only one you'd need?

atakawow
05-21-2011, 22:26
What do you mean "follow-up shots have zero relevant"? Follow up shots have every relevance!!! Are you claiming that your first shot will be the only one you'd need?

So you are saying follow up shots will give the 9mm a ballistic advantage over a .45 ACP? I suggest you read the whole argument before jumping in.

emt1581
05-22-2011, 09:36
So you are saying follow up shots will give the 9mm a ballistic advantage over a .45 ACP? I suggest you read the whole argument before jumping in.

He might have been in the wrong pew but he was in the right church. We're talking about the end result of whether or not you STOP the bg/threat and you are talking about numbers and such.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the .357mag will be going faster. What I, and possibly others, need to see proof of is that the bullet will do a significantly better job at stopping the threat. Whiskey's reply did make sense in regard to logic but, again, need to see pics/proof.

Even if it does, unless it's an almost guaranteed one shot stop, I'm still going with whichever gun will let me put more rounds on target in the quickest time which a .357mag snubbie will not in my experience.


-Emt1581

Berto
05-22-2011, 11:34
But the actual "help" is what I'm looking at. What can a .357mag do out of a 2" barrel that a +P .38spl cannot?

EDIT: I just thought about it and the extra oomph would give you better distance which is ironic because in a 2" package for SD we're talking typically burping smell distances when it's time to draw/shoot.

-Emt1581

More velocity and power will always help, given decent bullet design.
Stephen does a good job of illustrating the velocity and power differences on his site, although some newer loads (like Buffalo Bore, DT) shift the paradigm a few hundred fps 'up'.
I just don't care for .357mag in a small lightweight snubby, even with the extra power. With a good +P load like Buffalo Bore, driving a 158gr 1000+fps in a 2" bbl...that's good enough.

emt1581
05-22-2011, 11:56
More velocity and power will always help, given decent bullet design.
Stephen does a good job of illustrating the velocity and power differences on his site, although some newer loads (like Buffalo Bore, DT) shift the paradigm a few hundred fps 'up'.
I just don't care for .357mag in a small lightweight snubby, even with the extra power. With a good +P load like Buffalo Bore, driving a 158gr 1000+fps in a 2" bbl...that's good enough.

After seeing what McNett can do with 10mm loads and seeing what Buffalo Bore can do in .460 S&W mag, I'm sure the cranked up loads for .38spl from those companies are pretty hot. However, does it all but simulate a .357mag in the recoil, rise, and flash depts? I've never fired any to know.

-Emt1581

Berto
05-22-2011, 13:13
It's the heaviest recoil I've experienced from an Airweight J frame...but not so much so that it's impractical. I can shoot the load as well as other +P loads, including my older +P+ 147gr Win jhps.
It actually doesn't have the flash and boom most .357 loads have, either.
BB also offers a std pressure version of the same 158gr SWCLHP, but it's still warmer than most from the big three (remfedchester). It hits 850-900fps.

dwhite53
05-22-2011, 13:23
Any thread that runs more than one page usually without fail has departed from the original post and descended into the cesspool.

All the Best,
D. White

ekmek
05-22-2011, 15:51
Any thread that runs more than one page usually without fail has departed from the original post and descended into the cesspool.

All the Best,
D. White
What he said.

Berto
05-22-2011, 20:54
Emt, here's a good site for gel results;

It doesn't have a bunch of .357 mag data, but you can get a fair comparison of 125gr from a 4" .38sp and .357mag. They test .38sp Buffalo Bore stuff too, pretty impressive.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html

fnfalman
05-22-2011, 21:10
So you are saying follow up shots will give the 9mm a ballistic advantage over a .45 ACP? I suggest you read the whole argument before jumping in.

First of all, I've read the whole argument and that's why I decided to jump in.

The 9mm has the advantage over the .45ACP because although they both have about the same muzzle kinetic energies, the 9mm is a lot easier to shoot and thus can be used to put more rounds on target.

Maybe you think that you'd need a shot or two of .357 Mag to stop your target, but I'd rather put six shots of .38 into the target's guts in a rapid manners.

VinnieD
05-23-2011, 02:50
I have the Armscor M206 and I'm in love with it. The interesting thing is, it's actually made with official Colt Detective parts which Armscor purchased from Colt after the Detective was discontinued. That means that any questions you have about the Armscor 206 you can just refer to the Colt Detective on.

As far as personal testament. I've done some target shooting with it. Of course I haven't yet put thousands of rounds through it, as that would get rather expensive, but I haven't seen a jam yet, and everything operates smoothly. It's weighty, clearly made from strong materials, no aluminum here. It does kick a bit. Not enough to hurt your hand, but enough that you will have to fire it a bit, to learn to compensate. Larger grips would help to control it. The factory grips are really kind of small and slip a bit.

It should be able to safely fire +p rounds, but as with the original Detective, it's not built to fire them regularly. They're safe to fire, but I'd suggest shooting FMJ at the range, and save your +p for defense, aside from firing a few to get a feel for them. Firing +p too often will wear it down. Some say 100 rounds max, and others say as many as 1000. I wouldn't push it too far. Though the snub nose, really doesn't have a long enough barrel to take full advantage of +p rounds, so you might not want to even bother with those, and just stick to some normal hollow points that you'll have better control over. Stay away from round nose unless you want to be scrubbing lead out of your barrel every session.

By the way, shop around and you can get it as low as $190. Got mine from centerfire.

emt1581
05-23-2011, 06:05
I have the Armscor M206 and I'm in love with it. The interesting thing is, it's actually made with official Colt Detective parts which Armscor purchased from Colt after the Detective was discontinued. That means that any questions you have about the Armscor 206 you can just refer to the Colt Detective on.

As far as personal testament. I've done some target shooting with it. Of course I haven't yet put thousands of rounds through it, as that would get rather expensive, but I haven't seen a jam yet, and everything operates smoothly. It's weighty, clearly made from strong materials, no aluminum here. It does kick a bit. Not enough to hurt your hand, but enough that you will have to fire it a bit, to learn to compensate. Larger grips would help to control it. The factory grips are really kind of small and slip a bit.

It should be able to safely fire +p rounds, but as with the original Detective, it's not built to fire them regularly. They're safe to fire, but I'd suggest shooting FMJ at the range, and save your +p for defense, aside from firing a few to get a feel for them. Firing +p too often will wear it down. Some say 100 rounds max, and others say as many as 1000. I wouldn't push it too far. Though the snub nose, really doesn't have a long enough barrel to take full advantage of +p rounds, so you might not want to even bother with those, and just stick to some normal hollow points that you'll have better control over. Stay away from round nose unless you want to be scrubbing lead out of your barrel every session.

By the way, shop around and you can get it as low as $190. Got mine from centerfire.

Wow!! Wonderful post! Thanks for the information.

So it seems like the gun is a Philippine assembled Colt...no?

I plan to get mine from Centerfire as well it'll be $215 OTD.

-Emt1581

emt1581
05-24-2011, 20:19
Well after 2 pages of flawless reviews, I pulled the trigger on one. I should have it next week.

-Emt1581

Berto
05-25-2011, 14:39
Well after 2 pages of flawless reviews, I pulled the trigger on one. I should have it next week.

-Emt1581

Let us know how it shoots.

emt1581
05-25-2011, 15:35
Let us know how it shoots.

I'm thinking it was a few of the 750+ people that read this thread but SOMEHOW they ran out of the 2" versions overnight!! So now I have to wait a week or two ("most likely") for the next batch. :steamed:

-Emt1581

Vance665
05-25-2011, 15:41
Bingo. .357mag snubbies are NOT fun and offer little in the way of an advantage over .38spl's today.

However, if they offered a 4" .357mag I'd be all over that like white on rice in a glass of milk on a paper plate in a snow storm!!

-Emt1581

I disagree, I have fun with mine.

Berto
05-25-2011, 16:27
I'm thinking it was a few of the 750+ people that read this thread but SOMEHOW they ran out of the 2" versions overnight!! So now I have to wait a week or two ("most likely") for the next batch. :steamed:

-Emt1581

It was like that when I went to buy my Bodyguard.:supergrin:

Gregg702
05-25-2011, 16:38
I disagree, I have fun with mine.

I enjoy mine as well, makes quite the fireball.

emt1581
07-09-2011, 20:30
Are these still being made/shipped?

Centerfire has been out of all Armscor revolvers for months.

-Emt1581

Burncycle
07-09-2011, 23:58
I wanted to purchase a revolver my mom could use (she has a hard time racking slides) as well as a beater gun.

Reading reviews they seem to be pretty decent bang for your buck, so I just put one on layaway the other day.

I plan on putting Pachmayr grips on them (apparently they fit well). This'll be my first revolver... and now back to trying to find some decent non +P ammo that'll still go 12" and expand well out of that short barrel!

I'm this close to putting a RIA 1911 on layaway too... man.

PAPACHUCK
07-10-2011, 03:24
The only Armscor revolver I've touched was one a security guard carried when he came in looking for a holster a few years ago. That gun had the sloppiest cylinder and action I've ever felt. I thought the cylinder was going to fall out when it was opened, and the plastic grips were splitting, poking your hand just trying to hold it. The blueing was non-existant, just kind of a dull grey finish left, and the whole gun left me VERY un-impressed. He told me it was only two years old. He did say he had qualified with it, I wouldn't have shot that particular gun at all, much less ran a course with it. My 1980's Rossi M68 is a gem compared to that Armscor.

Good luck with yours, I hope they are made better now.

emt1581
02-05-2012, 00:17
Well some time has gone by and I'm thinking of ordering one again. Now I'm not sure if I want the M200 or M206.

The 206 has a shorter barrel but worse grip and the shorter barrel would mean less accuracy and distance...would sure give me that 1950's-1960's feeling though!

The 200 has a longer barrel which would give it better velocity and accuracy. Plus the grip it comes with looks real nice. 2 extra inches would mean a slight disadvantage for concealment.

To be honest, I want the M206 to fill a niche but the M200 would be far more practical.

Thoughts?

Thanks

-Emt1581

emt1581
02-05-2012, 09:21
Anyone?

Thanks

-Emt1581

fnfalman
02-06-2012, 01:03
I finally got to see one at Boise Gun Company and played with it a bit. If that gun is indicative of the rest then I wouldn't waste a dime on it. I expected the gun to be like the ARMSCOR M1911, which is good and cheap.

The revolver was cheap but that was about it. The lockwork was so rough that I could barely turn the cylinder on DA and the gun just looked horrible with machining marks everywhere.