Name your top 10 quality AR-15 brands!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Dogbite
05-24-2011, 19:33
Ok, lets hear it! What would be your pick for the top 10 quality AR-15 brands? I am talking about guns you would trust with your life. Solid rifles through and through. Thanks guys!

BL33D 4 M3
05-24-2011, 19:36
Rock River

STI
05-24-2011, 19:46
I have Rock River and Colt, the Rock River is a better rifle.

itstime
05-24-2011, 19:50
Rock River here

STI
05-24-2011, 20:01
My Rock River is carried every day, shot almost every day, very accurate, runs 100% with anything I put in it. Its cleaned weekly. 120 round match last weekend, shot great.

Ruggles
05-24-2011, 20:02
LOL no one has really named over 1 yet :)

I won't even try as my ARs are pieced together from companies such as LMT, BCG, RRA, Stag, Magpul, Rainer Arms, CMMG etc.

I do not know a ton about ARs so take it for what it is worth.

Black Smoke Trail
05-24-2011, 20:02
For top quality, I would have to say Noveske.

DerekMK23
05-24-2011, 20:06
PWS and KAC

NDCent
05-24-2011, 20:08
Colt.

jhooten
05-24-2011, 20:13
Colt
S&W
Remington
Stag (Best customer service)

dc2integra
05-24-2011, 20:21
Colt
Stag
Noveske
BCM
RRA
I personally chose the stag arms.

CookieFactory
05-24-2011, 20:35
Noveske
Daniel Defense
Colt
KAC
BCM

Are the, as they say, tier 1 brands.

K. Foster
05-24-2011, 20:46
I see this as being a potential train wreck, but what the heck! I’ll play.
In no particular order.
Noveski
Colt
KAC
LMT
BCM
Daniel Defense
Spikes
After that, the lines get a little blurry.

superdoc
05-24-2011, 20:57
Noveske

J. Parker
05-24-2011, 21:02
I've got an AR with a CMMG upper and a MEGA lower and it has worked perfect through 800 rds or so. You can learn alot from the GT folks so get the very best you can afford. I use my handguns for home defense so my AR (so far) in for "sporting" purposes. If I was in the market? I would purchase from the "better" upper tyrer selections.

bmoore
05-24-2011, 21:14
I dont have a ton of experience with carrying a rifle but I love my Smith M&P15.

zhix
05-24-2011, 21:41
I only have experience with complete rifles from Colt, Bushmaster, and Stag.
Not Surprisingly, I rate Colt best, Bushmaster 2nd( bought mine in 06', decent rifle but I would not by a current production cause of price and quality).

I have to rate Stag lowest because it is currently back being fixed for the third time. I had problems not only with the gun itself(11.5" SBR) but also their customer service, believe it or not.

Minnow
05-24-2011, 21:41
I like mine the best because yours won't help me. :supergrin:

micdude
05-24-2011, 21:51
Oh NO :deadhorse:

Gator Monroe
05-24-2011, 21:56
Retro Colt ,NDS,CMMG,J & T ,DelTon

gunslinger3
05-24-2011, 22:49
Noveske
Daniel Defense
Colt
KAC
BCM

Are the, as they say, tier 1 brands.

That's what I heard :whistling:

DUKFVR
05-25-2011, 05:51
LaRue
Noveske
Colt

eracer
05-25-2011, 06:06
LaRue
Noveske
Colt
Daniel Defense
Lewis Machine Tool
Knight's Armament
Wilson Combat
Alexander Arms
Les Baer

Some of these companies only make upper assemblies. The lower is only important insofar as it is manufactured to spec.

commando57
05-25-2011, 06:16
Whitly
AR performance
Rock River
Stag
Armalite

M&P15T
05-25-2011, 07:12
Oh NO :deadhorse:

I know, riiight?

Where's The Chart? Someone needs to post The Chart. This is the exact reason for it to exist.

thisaway
05-25-2011, 07:20
There are many "Tier 1" companies, although a few are almost custom builders:

(In no particular order)

Colt/FN
BCM
LMT
DD
KAC
Noveske
LaRue
Wilson
Les Baer

LWRC and POF are also very highly rated, but I am unsure if they offer regular DI AR15s or if they only offer piston-driven rifles.

Glock30Eric
05-25-2011, 07:46
What's good with "the piston-driven rifles"?

bullittmcqueen
05-25-2011, 07:48
I'm staying out of this, but the chart can be found rather easily by just using google. It was taken down for a reason, because most people who reference it have no idea how to interpret it.

boomhower
05-25-2011, 08:20
What's good with "the piston-driven rifles"?

There are a ton of threads on DI vs Piston, we only need to beat on dead horse per thread.

My list:
DD
KAC
Noveske
Colt
LMT
BCM
LWRC

Any of those listed I would toss in my trunk and go to work. Below that it gets a little fuzzier but Stag, RR, S&W, and Spikes are good rifles.

I'm sure I'm leaving some good rifles out, that's just off the top of my head.

Serbonze
05-25-2011, 08:49
I like mine the best because yours won't help me. :supergrin:

Best response so far!

thisaway
05-25-2011, 10:44
What's good with "the piston-driven rifles"?

LMT, LWRC, and POF have all received renown for their high-end piston-driven rifles. Stag offers a lower-priced piston model that has received good reviews. I have not heard much about the S&W, Bushmaster, or CMMG piston rifles.

I have an Adams Arms piston conversion on a DSA upper, but it was a retrofit and not a factory product. It has worked well for me so far, but I only use it as a range toy...I rely on a BCM rifle for serious uses.

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 11:04
Wow its like no one has heard of Primary Weapon Systems! And Tier 1 guys also use the HK416 but no one tallied that one.

BBJones
05-25-2011, 11:34
Oh boy what a cluster F this will be.

I am bored so I will add my .02
DI AR's I would own in no order:
BCM
Daniel Defense
LMT
Noveske
Colt
KAC
LaRue
Centurion (great rails and barrels - their barrels rival Noveske and that says alot)

To be honest I don't own any single makers complete rifle or upper. I put mine together with a mix of parts from the above companies. Pick and choose what you like best from each.



Oh and HK416 is not an AR as most people would describe it. Piston smiston a answer to a problem that doesn't exist. I know there are advocates for them but I think they don't make sense. If you want a piston gun, design the gun around it; don't adapt a DI gun into a piston. Another can of worms just opened :)

ScrappyDoo
05-25-2011, 12:41
BUSHMASTER.

"I'm not saying they're Number One....OH WAIT I"M SORRY I LIED. THEY'RE NUMBERS 1 2 3 4 AND FIVE!"




:) :) :)

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 14:05
I have Rock River and Colt, the Rock River is a better rifle.

I have owned both as well and I can not agree, the Colt is a better gun by far. Rock River is a middle tier gun along the lines of Stag and Bushmaster.

Anyway. Top tier not necessarily in order.
1. Knights
2. JP
3. Noveske
4. Larue
5.Colt
6. Daniel Defense
7. LMT
8. Bravo Company.
9. LWRC.

DieselNut
05-25-2011, 14:38
The very best is
Hesse
Vulcan
Black Thorne
Plum crazy
Dpms
:rofl:

M&P15T
05-25-2011, 14:40
Piston smiston a answer to a problem that doesn't exist. I know there are advocates for them but I think they don't make sense. If you want a piston gun, design the gun around it; don't adapt a DI gun into a piston. Another can of worms just opened :)

That's not quite true. Piston rifles (be they ARs or other platforms) have definite advantages over DI systems, especially in keeping the operating system clean and cool. With the recent advancements in piston ARs (including the HK416), many shooters that are sick and tired of the ammount of cleaning required by a DI AR will be taking long, hard looks at them.

Sure, a DI AR can run fine dirty and wet, but having an AR platform that stays cleaner and cooler is a big plus for some. Believe the obvious, if there wasn't a market demand for piston ARs, there wouldn't be growing numbers of options out there.

Durden
05-25-2011, 14:45
For relaxing range fun, I prefer BCM, KAC, LMT, DD, Noveske or Colt.

But when TSHTF, the Plum Crazy will get the nod.

Captains1911
05-25-2011, 16:35
I have Rock River and Colt, the Rock River is a better rifle.

Hmmm. Out of curiosity, what about your Colt makes you say that the RRA is better?

MadMonkey
05-25-2011, 16:45
DelTon
Doublestar
Blackthorne
DPMS
Vulcan
Olympic
Hesse

jrs93accord
05-25-2011, 16:55
In no particular order:
LMT
LaRue
Colt
KAC
LWRC
Noveske
CMMG
Del-Ton
Spikes Tactical
BCM

Dogbite
05-25-2011, 17:00
Thanks guys! I always learn something when I open up a discussion.

Gator Monroe
05-25-2011, 17:03
DelTon
Doublestar
Blackthorne
DPMS
Vulcan
Olympic
Hesse
Dude you left out LaRue ...:rofl:

mvician
05-25-2011, 17:04
Hmmm. Out of curiosity, what about your Colt makes you say that the RRA is better?

"Fit" and "Finish"

it doesn't "rattle"


:rofl:


Those are usually their (RRA owners) reason that the RRA is better than a Colt. :yawn:

Jack Black
05-25-2011, 17:43
I'm staying out of this, but the chart can be found rather easily by just using google. It was taken down for a reason, because most people who reference it have no idea how to interpret it.

No, it was taken down because it's being updated.

Jack Black
05-25-2011, 17:45
Wow its like no one has heard of Primary Weapon Systems! And Tier 1 guys also use the HK416 but no one tallied that one.

PWS and HK aren't very big in the civilian market, so most people aren't going to pick them.

bullittmcqueen
05-25-2011, 17:48
No, it was taken down because it's being updated.

Try again. Read the document in its place now. Rob may not put the chart back up at all.

Jack Black
05-25-2011, 17:53
Try again. Read the document in its place now. Rob may not put the chart back up at all.

Well if he changed his mind about putting it back up that's one thing, but your statement was still misleading. It was originally taken down just to be updated.

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 19:11
That's not quite true. Piston rifles (be they ARs or other platforms) have definite advantages over DI systems, especially in keeping the operating system clean and cool. With the recent advancements in piston ARs (including the HK416), many shooters that are sick and tired of the ammount of cleaning required by a DI AR will be taking long, hard looks at them.

Sure, a DI AR can run fine dirty and wet, but having an AR platform that stays cleaner and cooler is a big plus for some. Believe the obvious, if there wasn't a market demand for piston ARs, there wouldn't be growing numbers of options out there.

+1 not everyone can see the bigger picture, there is a lot of people that have spent so much into di that they fail to see the positives of a different system. And the HK416 is a M4 platform regardless of what anyone else says and Tier One Seals do use them the rumor is that is what killed OBL.

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 19:13
PWS and HK aren't very big in the civilian market, so most people aren't going to pick them.

Doesn't mean they don't compete with all the rest of these brands. But this is obvious a personal opinion thread

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 19:23
Oh and HK416 is not an AR as most people would describe it. Piston smiston a answer to a problem that doesn't exist. I know there are advocates for them but I think they don't make sense. If you want a piston gun, design the gun around it; don't adapt a DI gun into a piston. Another can of worms just opened :)

How about watching the HK416 vs Colt stress test, then tell me it fixes imaginary problems. Also to say that a piston ar isn't a "ar" is ignorant the HK416 is an ar platform good enough to be called an "ar"

STI
05-25-2011, 19:32
1911 why did I say that about my Colt? Well the Rock River just plain shoots very well, its much more accurate than my colt, the fit of the Colt is no where what the RR is, I do not shoot the Colt as well and my friends dont either, both run 100% with any ammo, the feel of the RR is better,tighter,no rattle,upper and lowers mate much better than the Colt. Just my feelings, my RR is carried daily 7 days a week, just today shot 1 coyote and 2 other predators, to me its 100% reliable. Money was not much of an object when I got it and would do the same again, the RR just shoots, I clean it 1 time a week, never any kind of problem. Also the Colt trigger is horrible compared to the RR. This is my opinion only for my use, also I had a FN M4 for 4 yrs before retirement and my RR will out shoot it ......

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 19:37
That's not quite true. Piston rifles (be they ARs or other platforms) have definite advantages over DI systems, especially in keeping the operating system clean and cool. With the recent advancements in piston ARs (including the HK416), many shooters that are sick and tired of the ammount of cleaning required by a DI AR will be taking long, hard looks at them.

Sure, a DI AR can run fine dirty and wet, but having an AR platform that stays cleaner and cooler is a big plus for some. Believe the obvious, if there wasn't a market demand for piston ARs, there wouldn't be growing numbers of options out there.

You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

vrex
05-25-2011, 19:48
My two favorite brands that can be had in your local shop are Armalite and Stag. The Stag build quality is just incredible, I think where they save the money though is the 4140 barrel steel and rifle feed ramps. Armalite has all the features you would want (mil barrel steel, m4 ramps) and the mid length platform that they developed is inn my opinion the best way to do the 16" platform.

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 19:55
You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

K. Foster
05-25-2011, 20:17
The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate.

Agree.

DerekMK23
05-25-2011, 20:21
And to beat a dead horse govt testing of the hk 416 has proven these statements
*70% less fouling and cleaning time (< 4 minutes for an HK416, > 12 for an M4)
An almost total lack of carbon fouling is present within the weapon during even extended operation. 95% of all carbon fouling, debris and heat leaves the muzzle of the HK416 upon firing.
*Little or no heat transfer to the bolt parts which results in 3-4 times increased service parts life and little to no requirement to reapply lubricant
*Ability to fire the weapon w/o lubricant. A lack of lubricant attracts less sand and grit in harsh environments thus improving reliability.
*Weapon operation not effected by the presence of water in the gas system
*User removable without tools
*Same gas system components and gas port location for all barrel lengths

BBJones
05-25-2011, 20:30
How about watching the HK416 vs Colt stress test, then tell me it fixes imaginary problems. Also to say that a piston ar isn't a "ar" is ignorant the HK416 is an ar platform good enough to be called an "ar"

Then I am ignorant. What I meant is that most people when they think of an AR don't think of a piston gun. People who are talking about piston AR's usually qualify it by adding that they are talking about a piston variety.

No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

How much does an HK416 cost? Under 1k?

My point is not that piston are totally worthless POS's but that they aren't an improvement IMO.

glock031
05-25-2011, 20:31
No, it was taken down because it's being updated.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

BBJones
05-25-2011, 20:34
And to beat a dead horse govt testing of the hk 416 has proven these statements
*70% less fouling and cleaning time (< 4 minutes for an HK416, > 12 for an M4)
An almost total lack of carbon fouling is present within the weapon during even extended operation. 95% of all carbon fouling, debris and heat leaves the muzzle of the HK416 upon firing.
*Little or no heat transfer to the bolt parts which results in 3-4 times increased service parts life and little to no requirement to reapply lubricant
*Ability to fire the weapon w/o lubricant. A lack of lubricant attracts less sand and grit in harsh environments thus improving reliability.
*Weapon operation not effected by the presence of water in the gas system
*User removable without tools
*Same gas system components and gas port location for all barrel lengths

Awesome enjoy your HK416.

BBJones
05-25-2011, 20:35
I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

I bet not. Only way he would be liable is if anything he put in it was untrue and caused damage to a business.

Jack Black
05-25-2011, 21:13
I'm going to go out on a limb here and BET it went down because of legal reasons.

What in the world are you talking about?

Alaskapopo
05-25-2011, 21:47
No one is asking you to drink piston kool aid just admit to the facts I have shot both quite a bit and yes the piston is extremely cleaner than di with or without a supressor and a lot of these brands of di that are being named are the same if not more money than what a piston costs so I think I will continue to drink my PWS piston Kool aid 2,000 rounds of 5.56 and still going strong another 500 and maybe I'll clean it. And where does accuracy play into it I think you sir need to do a little more research before you generalize all pistons into the same category because they aren't

One of my best friends has a LWRC. Not a bad gun but I don't see it as being worth the extra money. In fact after I let him shoot my Noveske at the last three gun match he wants one now.
Pat

Durden
05-26-2011, 01:14
Try again. Read the document in its place now. Rob may not put the chart back up at all.

If rob s. doesn't put the chart back up, all hell will break loose.

I'll have people challenging me on why their Hesse is the equal of my KAC, and there won't be a damn thing I'll be able to offer in the form of absolute proof as a rebuttal.

Damnit!

12131
05-26-2011, 01:36
Excellent, another meaningless pissing match thread.:devildance: :cheers:

jbremount
05-26-2011, 05:47
1911 why did I say that about my Colt? Well the Rock River just plain shoots very well, its much more accurate than my colt, the fit of the Colt is no where what the RR is, I do not shoot the Colt as well and my friends dont either, both run 100% with any ammo, the feel of the RR is better,tighter,no rattle,upper and lowers mate much better than the Colt. Just my feelings, my RR is carried daily 7 days a week, just today shot 1 coyote and 2 other predators, to me its 100% reliable. Money was not much of an object when I got it and would do the same again, the RR just shoots, I clean it 1 time a week, never any kind of problem. Also the Colt trigger is horrible compared to the RR. This is my opinion only for my use, also I had a FN M4 for 4 yrs before retirement and my RR will out shoot it ......


Rock River uses the Wlyde chambers, which (AFAIK) are more accurate withr most civilian shooter selection of ammo. A RR with a wlyde chamber and stainless steel barrel is designed to be more accurate than a standard Colt. I remember when 4-6" groups at 100 yards was acceptable in the Army with the old Colts we had. The military has different priories. For example, the mess hall did not look like Luby's either, but could move to the field and feed hundreds.

jbremount
05-26-2011, 05:49
Stag is a good rifle for the average civilian shooter. They are my favorite brand.

STI
05-26-2011, 05:55
The barrel/chamber on my RR is marked 5.56, also stated on the manuel and case it came in.

Captains1911
05-26-2011, 06:57
Rock River uses the Wlyde chambers, which (AFAIK) are more accurate withr most civilian shooter selection of ammo. A RR with a wlyde chamber and stainless steel barrel is designed to be more accurate than a standard Colt. I remember when 4-6" groups at 100 yards was acceptable in the Army with the old Colts we had. The military has different priories. For example, the mess hall did not look like Luby's either, but could move to the field and feed hundreds.

I had a 20" RRA with a Wylde chamber which is advertised by RRA as being capable of handling both .223 and 5.56. Unfortunately for me that was not the case. The gun would constantly blow primers with all sorts of 5.56 ammo. I had to ream the chamber in order for it to cycle 5.56 reliably.

K. Foster
05-26-2011, 07:02
If rob s. doesn't put the chart back up, all hell will break loose.

I'll have people challenging me on why their Hesse is the equal of my KAC, and there won't be a damn thing I'll be able to offer in the form of absolute proof as a rebuttal.

Damnit!


I donít know why people get so bent out of shape over the chart. Nothing in there is classified or particularly hard to get. Inspect the guns you have access to for the obvious stuff and call or email the companies and ask if they high pressure test or what barrel steel they use. Many companies are starting to list that stuff on their own. Every time Iíve contacted a gun manufacturer, Iíve always gotten the info I needed. Itís not rocket science.

bullittmcqueen
05-26-2011, 07:15
I donít know why people get so bent out of shape over the chart. Nothing in there is classified or particularly hard to get. Inspect the guns you have access to for the obvious stuff and call or email the companies and ask if they high pressure test or what barrel steel they use. Many companies are starting to list that stuff on their own. Every time Iíve contacted a gun manufacturer, Iíve always gotten the info I needed. Itís not rocket science.

Exactly. That was my point when I said "people don't know how to interpret the chart". Your average AR buyer has no idea what the information contained in the chart means; no idea what TDP, MPI/HPT means. All they see is a left side and a right side and names going across the top. The informative article that Rob has compiled explaining all these things is actually better in my humble opinion as it allows buyers to learn what the terminology and technology mean and as you said, contact companies and make their own informed decisions.

If someone looks at the left side of the chart and picks a random name and goes and buys a rifle, they've completely missed the point.

d90king
05-26-2011, 07:35
Colt
LMT
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
KAC
LaRue
LWRCI
HK

M&P15T
05-26-2011, 08:03
You don't have to clean an Ar nearly as often as you seem to think. The only time cleaner and cooler is a major plus is for use with suppressors. For most shooters they are better off with a DI gun that costs less, weighs less, has less parts to break and is generally more durable and more accurate. Sorry but not drinking the piston Kool aid.

Pat

That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.:upeyes::upeyes:

DerekMK23
05-26-2011, 09:35
That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.:upeyes::upeyes:

LMAO, :rofl:

flynshoot
05-26-2011, 14:14
DD
Colt
BCM
Noveske

Alaskapopo
05-26-2011, 14:25
That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has them. You can like your DI ARs, but the market is moving in a different direction. From piston ARs like the H&K416s, LWRC, STAG, S&W, to SCARs, to ACRs, to XCRs, and so on and so on, the rifle world is changing. Cool and clean is better, no matter what a rifle's use, and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Of course the SEALs and Rangers and AFCCs are stupid in their rifle choices. Those poor, ignorant souls. They're probably having to rebuild their rifles every few weeks or so, with parts always breaking and stuff.:upeyes::upeyes:

Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's .:rofl: You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
Pat

K. Foster
05-26-2011, 15:40
and weight means nothing to the average civilian shooter.

Maybe not to somebody that shoots their guns off a bench. If you train with your rifle, use it at work, or just have it slung for more than a couple hours, youíll find weight does matter.

mattallamerican
05-26-2011, 17:21
ive built 5 from sherluk parts and never had any problem

DerekMK23
05-26-2011, 19:11
Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's .:rofl: You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
Pat

Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of piton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.

Alaskapopo
05-26-2011, 19:31
Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of piton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.

I am talking about piston AR's being general issue not about T&E guns.
Pat

DerekMK23
05-26-2011, 20:41
Alaskapopo Well when it comes down to it I am sure we all own some really nice AR-15's piston or not, truth is this argument could go on and on! So I think I will end it on the personal opinion note! We might disagree on what type of rifle. But it does look like there is a lot of shooting technique and other knowledge that I can learn from you!

R.K. Watkins
05-26-2011, 21:23
Colt
Noveske
BCM
Daniel Defense
Smith & Wesson

Alaskapopo
05-26-2011, 21:24
Alaskapopo Well when it comes down to it I am sure we all own some really nice AR-15's piston or not, truth is this argument could go on and on! So I think I will end it on the personal opinion note! We might disagree on what type of rifle. But it does look like there is a lot of shooting technique and other knowledge that I can learn from you!

I have no problem with personal opinion. I just have a problem with piston fans say DI guns are worthless and obsolete. Like I said earlier a friend of mine has a LWRC its a fine gun. But I prefer my Noveske. I have never had an issue with running the guns too hot or getting them so dirty I could not get them clean in 20 minutes. I have a hard time paying $500 more for a feature that I see no benefit from. For what a LWRC costs I can build a very nice top end DI AR. Also I don't see any evidence that the market is moving towards Piston AR's. They have a following but I don't see it growing significantly.
Anyway take care.

Pat

jbremount
05-27-2011, 05:20
Maybe not to somebody that shoots their guns off a bench. If you train with your rifle, use it at work, or just have it slung for more than a couple hours, you’ll find weight does matter.

Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.

d90king
05-27-2011, 05:34
Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. Most of the time, the back pack weights at least 90 lbs. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.

Because it is an important part of the discussion when discussing a fighting weapon. I can promise you that if you take a few 3 day classes where you are humping your rifle for 10 hours a day, weight will take on a whole new level of importance to you. Does it really matter if you are only taking your rifle to the range and plinking with it? No, probably not, but if you are training with your rifle a lot weight becomes a much more important factor.

ATL_GLOCK
05-27-2011, 08:24
Here are my ten in no particular order

LMT
LWRC
POF
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LaRue
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Knights

JGguns
05-27-2011, 09:46
In no particular order:
LMT
LaRue
Colt
KAC
LWRC
Noveske
CMMG
Del-Ton
Spikes Tactical
BCM



I have shot and or owned all and can say none of these have given me issues.

Gator Monroe
05-27-2011, 10:14
J&t & nds

ATL_GLOCK
05-27-2011, 10:19
I have shot and or owned all and can say none of these have given me issues.

you sir then have a collection I am envious of

FireForged
05-27-2011, 10:30
Well, all I can offer is that I have owned Colts and Bushmasters. My 2 Bushmasters work well, my Colts didnt so I sold them. I keep hearing all this talk about staked gas keys and such. I cant go to the range without some stranger comming up and saying something about it. I have been shooting my Bushmasters since 1997 (thousands of rounds) and have yet to have a issue with a gas key.

I am not saying Bushmaster is the best, they were within my budget and thats why I bought them. All I can say is that I would by another if I needed it.

M&P15T
05-27-2011, 10:53
Yea all the Rangers SEALS are using piston AR's .:rofl: You're full of it. (sounds like someone is playing too much Counter Strike on line and not enough time shooting real guns) The HK416 was tested by not adopted by the SF community. Also a weapons weight may mean nothing to you but you don't speak for the average anything. You have been sold on piston Koolaid. That is great enjoy your guns. If you have not heard about piston guns breaking down like POF guns and what not your head is in the sand. Then there is the carrier tilt issue. There are a lot of bugs to work out of the piston system as it applies to AR's before they are to be trusted, hence part of the reason why the military dropped the HK416 for general issue.
Pat

What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.:upeyes:

Actually Rangers, Green Berets and SEALS are using a variety of psiton rifles. I have friends in all three Spec War groups And I certainly havent said anything about POF because I dont like their products. PWS (LWRC?) eliminated piston tilt and weighs about the same as DI also does all the things every other piston claims to do.

I am talking about piston AR's being general issue not about T&E guns.
Pat

From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ranger-scar.png
http://images-kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/scar-pics-in-the-combat-zone/scar-sf-3.jpg
http://images-kitup.military.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Air-Force-SpecOps-SCAR.jpg
Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....

M&P15T
05-27-2011, 11:17
Because it (weight) is an important part of the discussion when discussing a fighting weapon. I can promise you that if you take a few 3 day classes where you are humping your rifle for 10 hours a day, weight will take on a whole new level of importance to you. Does it really matter if you are only taking your rifle to the range and plinking with it? No, probably not, but if you are training with your rifle a lot weight becomes a much more important factor.

Really?......hmmmm...not so sure on that one.

Almost every front-line trooper has things such as optics, PEQ 2s, M203s, VFGs, slings, quad-rails, etc., etc. on the rifles that they actually carry on foot. It doesn't seem to me that those that really use these types of rifles in combat sit around fretting over weight like a bunch of nancy-boys. It seems to me that they throw every bit of hardware on their rifles that they feel might enhance their chances of getting home alive and in one piece.

An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.

In fact, based on your comments, it seems that there is only an extremely select few that care about weight.....out-of-shape warrior wannabes at training classes that wished they were young and fit enough to actually join the fight over-seas. I put myself in the catagory of old, out-of-shape wannabe, and I still don't care about the weight of my rifle......it's just for funzies.

Civilians describing their rifles as "fighting weapons.":rofl::rofl:Riiiiight. Check the pictures I just posted above.......those guys can call them "fighting weapons", the rest of us should just STFU and call them ARs or rifles. Do you really think the Ranger in the middle picture is worried about the weight of his "fighting weapon?" I doubt it very, very much.

Jack Black
05-27-2011, 14:11
Here are my ten in no particular order

LMT
LWRC
POF
BCM
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LaRue
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Knights

That's a pretty good list. If I had to come up with 10 I don't think I could do better.

Jack Black
05-27-2011, 14:17
What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.:upeyes:





From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).

Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....

It's pretty well accepted that one area where piston beats DI is in suppressed SBRs. Perhaps that's why special forces use them. After all the military (I forget which branch) recently placed another large order for DI M4s.

Alaskapopo
05-27-2011, 14:21
What's great is when one can exchange ideas and information without resorting to insults....oh well.:upeyes:





From what I have read,(and I don't profess to knowing 1st hand about what they are using) the SEALS and Delta are using HK416s. I have also read that the Rangers and A.F. Combat Controllers are using SCARs. And of course the SCAR line has be officially approved for Military purchase for those groups that have their own discretionary spending (an interesting note is that Mk16s are being replaced by Mk17s or 416s).
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ranger-scar.png
http://images-kitup.military.com/wp-content/gallery/scar-pics-in-the-combat-zone/scar-sf-3.jpg
http://images-kitup.military.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Air-Force-SpecOps-SCAR.jpg
Sounds to me like piston rifles are making serious in-roads with our Military, and it's obvious that more and more piston-based rifles are hitting the civilian market. You can quip sarcastically and insultively about "piston kool-aid" all you want, it won't stop the Military and civilian markets from moving onwards and upwards. While I own and enjoy shooting my DI AR, I know that my next purchase is going to be a piston rifle of some type.....

Psst a SCAR is not a pistol AR. Nor is a AK 47, nor is a M14 for that matter. Stay on topic.
I have no problem with other weapons designed from the ground up as a piston design. The AR was designed as a DI gun and it works well that way. A piston brings in all sorts of issues to this gun because it was not designed that way from the start. Issue like carrier tilt, added weight, more small parts that break. Keep drinking the Kool aid.
Pat

Alaskapopo
05-27-2011, 14:24
Really?......hmmmm...not so sure on that one.

Almost every front-line trooper has things such as optics, PEQ 2s, M203s, VFGs, slings, quad-rails, etc., etc. on the rifles that they actually carry on foot. It doesn't seem to me that those that really use these types of rifles in combat sit around fretting over weight like a bunch of nancy-boys. It seems to me that they throw every bit of hardware on their rifles that they feel might enhance their chances of getting home alive and in one piece.

An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.

In fact, based on your comments, it seems that there is only an extremely select few that care about weight.....out-of-shape warrior wannabes at training classes that wished they were young and fit enough to actually join the fight over-seas. I put myself in the catagory of old, out-of-shape wannabe, and I still don't care about the weight of my rifle......it's just for funzies.

Civilians describing their rifles as "fighting weapons.":rofl::rofl:Riiiiight. Check the pictures I just posted above.......those guys can call them "fighting weapons", the rest of us should just STFU and call them ARs or rifles. Do you really think the Ranger in the middle picture is worried about the weight of his "fighting weapon?" I doubt it very, very much.

So civilians are never involved in life and death situations. Their homes never get broken into and they are never attacked. Do you really believe the garbage you just posted? Not to mention all the LEO (we are civilians not members of the military) that use our rifles on patrol. Weight is an issue to say otherwise just shows how little you actually know about the topic we are discussing. A fighting weapon is anything that you are using in a fight. Now does the extra weight of a piston system make or break the weapon system no. But its another disadvantage added to the long list. I think pistons have a place on SBR's and suppressed weapons. But for every other role the DI guns are a better choice.

K. Foster
05-27-2011, 14:49
Why does this weight of rifle keeps coming up. Only out of shape people worry about carrying their AR for a couple of hours. Do you really think a soldier goes on a mission with less ammo, or water, or removes his red dot sight to keep the weight down by a few ounces. Even lbs is nothing in the over all scheme of things. It's better to have it and don't need it, than to need it and don't have it.


Nobody is suggesting removing optics or carrying less ammo. Piston guns are gaining in popularity but so are light weight builds with pencil barrels. It isnít about being able to carry the weight, itís about optimizing your equipment. While it is better to have and not need, it is also better to not have what you donít need.

Alaskapopo
05-27-2011, 15:16
Nobody is suggesting removing optics or carrying less ammo. Piston guns are gaining in popularity but so are light weight builds with pencil barrels. It isnít about being able to carry the weight, itís about optimizing your equipment. While it is better to have and not need, it is also better to not have what you donít need.

True and the most in shape guys I know who do things like Sheep hunting do anything they can to spare a few ounces here and there. For anyone who has actually carried a gun any length of time will know you don't want to carry un neccessary weight.
Pat

K. Foster
05-27-2011, 15:17
An additional point is that 99% of AR-type civilian rifle purchasers will never attend any training classes, and don't care much about weight. It seems as if it's a bitter pill to swallow for a few here, that for most of us our rifles are used for fun at the range and little else. And those that do use them for actual, serious buisness, also seem to not care about weight.

I have attended carbine training classes. I also use one in connection with my job at one of the less prestigious Fed agencies. An AR is part of my home defense plan. To me, weight matters, to an extent. Does this make me a 1%er?
You seem to consider your AR to be a range toy. Thatís fine. Enjoy your 2nd Amendment rights.
Have a nice day.

pleaforwar
05-27-2011, 16:02
Lots of 9th-degree Google black belts with a sprinkling of LWRC Pamphlet apprentices in here.

Dogbite
05-27-2011, 16:28
Thanks for all the info guys! Everyone has to make up their own mind about brands, features, and weapons systems that are right for them. I sell guns all day everyday. I see guys trading in their ARs to get AKs. I see guys selling their AKs to get ARs. I see guys getting out of DI guns to get Piston guns, and vise versa. Its always interesting to see what people have to say. There will always be some Bull**** and most always there will be some good information mixed in as well. I always try not to make it a pissing match, and to listen to what others have to say. I learn something new everyday!

M&P15T
05-27-2011, 18:28
It's pretty well accepted that one area where piston beats DI is in suppressed SBRs. Perhaps that's why special forces use them. After all the military (I forget which branch) recently placed another large order for DI M4s.

SCARs and ACRs, as well as other piston system rifles have adjustable gas regulation. They work just fine with suppressors.

Psst a SCAR is not a pistol AR. Nor is a AK 47, nor is a M14 for that matter. Stay on topic.
I have no problem with other weapons designed from the ground up as a piston design. The AR was designed as a DI gun and it works well that way. A piston brings in all sorts of issues to this gun because it was not designed that way from the start. Issue like carrier tilt, added weight, more small parts that break. Keep drinking the Kool aid.
Pat

Keep up the insults if that's all you can do. There are plenty of piston ARs that work just fine, without the problems that occured early on, like they do with every new weapon introduction (remember when M16s got deployed to Vietnam? Do you remember the problems that caused our troops to get killed?). Just ask the SEALs and Delta (and OBL) about their 416s, your mind might change. Ask them how the Kool-aid tastes....I dare ya.

So civilians are never involved in life and death situations. Their homes never get broken into and they are never attacked. Do you really believe the garbage you just posted? Not to mention all the LEO (we are civilians not members of the military) that use our rifles on patrol. Weight is an issue to say otherwise just shows how little you actually know about the topic we are discussing. A fighting weapon is anything that you are using in a fight. Now does the extra weight of a piston system make or break the weapon system no. But its another disadvantage added to the long list. I think pistons have a place on SBR's and suppressed weapons. But for every other role the DI guns are a better choice.

LEOs on patrol? :rofl::rofl:Do you mean with their ARs in the trunk? Yeah, I bet the weight of their ARs (that have all of the stuff hanging off of them, like Military rifles) sure make a big dent in the weight of the 4000lb vehicles they drive.

Extra weight? What, a few ounces? You must be a light weight if that makes a difference to you. Us normal folk with normal strength will continue to make do with our heavy rifles (wether that weight is from accessories or from a 50lb adding piston system). If I can't manage the few seconds to a few minutes that defending my home from invasion takes with an uber-heavy, optic and light adorned AR (much less a piston system) lasts, I'll check my man-card at the door of life.

I have attended carbine training classes. I also use one in connection with my job at one of the less prestigious Fed agencies. An AR is part of my home defense plan. To me, weight matters, to an extent. Does this make me a 1%er?
You seem to consider your AR to be a range toy. Thatís fine. Enjoy your 2nd Amendment rights.
Have a nice day.

How does weight matter? Are you staggering 4000 feet up Sawtalo Sar in the Korengal valley with 80 lbs on your back? Like our Miltary folk with pounds of accessories on their rifles do every day? Oh no, wait, you've been to a class...that's right. Does carrying your light-weight non-piston AR make your arms tired after a long 8 hour shift? Ever hear of a sling? Would the extra few ounces that a piston system adds render you a useless quivering mass in defending your home and family? Hit the gym, it should help.

Is my AR a toy? Yup, I've never fired a shot in anger out of it, just like 98% of the other AR owners. I guess that makes me a 98%er.:rofl:And please can your attempt at insulting me over the 2A, I've been involved in supporting the 2A for 20 + years, I've paid my dues to disagree with you. It's like you think that if someone hasn't killed using a DI AR in SD/HD or in the Military/LEO role, they have no standing in this debate.:upeyes:

ETA: With all of the stuff (lights, lasers, optics, quad rails, VFGs and AFGs, M203s, slings) that our Military, LEO and civilians alike (save M203s) add to our ARs, does the few extra ounces for a piston system really mean anything? If piston systems were really that un-reliable would the SEALs and Delta use HK416s? Haven't companies like POF, LWRC, Stag, S&W, Hk and the like not worked to solve the problems that occured early on? Hasn't virtually every new weapon system (or change too an existing system) had some teething issues early on?

C'mon guys, I like my DI AR as much as the next shooter, but times are changing, and for the better.

BlackPaladin
05-28-2011, 00:13
M&P15T, I won't jump on the piston vs DI arguement tonite, but I will say that ANY amout of weight saved is a big deal. Alaskpopo is referring to standing a post with an AR, or lugging it around for an active shooter. If you have to carry these things for a long time at once, that extra weight is tough. Being in the same line of work, and current military as well, I will say that nothing extra gets added to my patrol AR. More stuff means more to get in the way, more to lug, more to break.

Norman B
05-28-2011, 11:33
Weight is an issue to say otherwise just shows how little you actually know about the topic we are discussing. A fighting weapon is anything that you are using in a fight. Now does the extra weight of a piston system make or break the weapon system no. But its another disadvantage added to the long list. .

Very true<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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M&P15T,<o:p></o:p>
You obviously have no experience with ARs in law enforcement. I donít know why you are arguing with people that do. Youíve already said you donít train with your AR or plan to use it for home defense, so how can you say weight doesnít matter to those that do? As someone who has carried one, I can assure you ounces=pounds.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

12131
05-28-2011, 12:00
I'm not gonna get to any pissing match, but I'll say that "ounces = pounds" is very real as far as I'm concerned personally, and I'm not even LEO/military/competing. Just an average Joe. Playing with my stock HK MR556A1, I didn't truly realize how heavy it was until I picked up one of my DI ARs with accessories on it. The HK made the DI AR feel like featherweight. :wow:

K. Foster
05-28-2011, 15:36
It's like you think that if someone hasn't killed using a DI AR in SD/HD or in the Military/LEO role, they have no standing in this debate.:upeyes:

Thatís just more immature sarcasm. Iíve never said anything that would lead you to think that.
Light weapons and equipment are always preferred over heavy weapons and equipment. It really is that simple.
Guys, Iím done with this dead horse. Good day.

dfsutton
05-30-2011, 06:56
There is probably little to no point in posting this, but I feel froggy...

Whether your Ar-15 weighs 7 lbs or 14 lbs, it still shoots the same 5.56 caliber round. Therefore it's capacity to stop a threat is not related to the amount of rail-space you have with the coolest doo-dads hanging off. It's related to how quickly you can recognize the threat, aquire a sight picture, and accurately put rounds on it.

There are a few accessories that I find are very worth it, but most of the junk out there is just that, junk. Not worth increasing the weight of my rifle.

DerekMK23
05-30-2011, 07:33
There is probably little to no point in posting this, but I feel froggy...

Whether your Ar-15 weighs 7 lbs or 14 lbs, it still shoots the same 5.56 caliber round. Therefore it's capacity to stop a threat is not related to the amount of rail-space you have with the coolest doo-dads hanging off. It's related to how quickly you can recognize the threat, aquire a sight picture, and accurately put rounds on it.

There are a few accessories that I find are very worth it, but most of the junk out there is just that, junk. Not worth increasing the weight of my rifle.
Care to share what you think those that are worth it?

STI
05-30-2011, 07:41
Great posts! I am just the opposite I want mine plain with the least on it I can get by with, more to hang up on something, 20 rd mags are great and all I use. Mine is carried 7 days a week in my truck and usually shot daily on our ranch back up sights and a EO Tech is all with a 20 round mag, its great in a truck cab. Its 8:45 am here and its already been out all morning.

Captains1911
05-30-2011, 07:49
Is this ARFCOM?

dfsutton
05-30-2011, 08:04
Care to share what you think those that are worth it?

I would say to shoot your stock rifle and decide what changes you really need.

Personally, I feel everyone should have a quality optic (and for most people that should be a red dot, and personally use an Aimpoint T-1) and a good sling, and a flashlight mounted.

Personally, I have made the changes above and also replaced the m4 stock with a magpul ACS because it has a much better lock-up and cheek weld. The ACS does increase weight, but TO ME it is worth it. I also replaced the A2 pistol grip with an Ergo grip and a Magpul MOE grip because I prefer the feel of these to the A-2. I also replaced the stock receiver end plate with the Noveske QD endplate as a light weight way of providing a sling attachment point.

relayman
05-30-2011, 08:09
Is this ARFCOM? Seems like it at times . In so many ways .

STI
05-30-2011, 08:57
I took a friend with me that brought his rifle with him, it had a sling,light,laser and I don't know what else on it, I called it a Christmas tree rifle. The 1st time he tried a shot his "Tactical" sling got hung on the floorshift and his flashlight hit my mirror, he was embarassed alot the coyote was long gone by then. He took his laser,light and sling off and got 2 coyotes before the day was gone with no problems. I rarely ever go to a public range, like never but did with a friend to pick up some primers and saw more crap on AR's than I have ever seen before, most all Chinese junk for 'cool' looks I guess. What a waste of ammo money. YES this seems like the AR site! just kidding! I shot a really nice group with my RR yesterday but I am just waiting for it to break! So far so good. I shoot it at paper ever now and then to recheck zero as it does get a rough ride daily. I moved the EO Tech 1 click was all. The PMC Bronze 55 shoots really well in it. One thing I found out the hard was was that I had to put a towel on the dash stuffed in the defroster vents to keep brass out of them, its a pain to get out.
Shoot more and enjoy! If it breaks fix it!

mag318
05-30-2011, 10:01
My favorite and still best AR I've ever owned is an Eagle Arms carbine that was assembled and tuned by Chuck and Mark Larson (The owners of Rock River Arms). They actually worked for Eagle/Armalite before forming there own company.
Mark Westroms' company Armalite (Eagle Arms) has always made top shelf ARs second to none. So in my experience of over 40 years with ARs these are my favorite companies.
1. Armalite (Eagle)
2. Colt
3. Smith & Wesson

DerekMK23
05-30-2011, 14:55
[QUOTE=dfsutton;17422490]I would say to shoot your stock rifle and decide what changes you really need.

Personally, I feel everyone should have a quality optic (and for most people that should be a red dot, and personally use an Aimpoint T-1) and a good sling, and a flashlight mounted.

I would agree with you on that a red dot or eotech, but I will say the quality of flashlight makes a big deal! I had an older surefire but it made my rifle way too front end heavy so I have been getting by without for the time being.

Alaskapopo
06-01-2011, 00:15
A word on pistons. This last weekend I shot the Alaska State Championship three gun match in Kenai and of the two piston guns (POF and LWRC) in my squad both went down. One was a LWRC that belonged to a friend of mine. The metal part surronding the spring broke and was in little pieces. I loaned him my back up rifle(which is my patrol rifle) a Noveske N4 carbine to finish the match. The other piston gun was a POF or should I say POS. Not sure what the problem was but it would not run. Two shooters were sharing it. They tried various brands of factory ammo and reloads. They also ended up using my ammo and my Noveske. My Noveske N4 was being used by 3 shooters at the end of the match with no issues. I ended up donating about 300 rounds of ammo with it to those shooters. Count me solidly out of the piston camp. This range was full of sand or rather Glacial silt and the DI guns in my squad ran and ran. I never had a malfunction with either my Noveske Rogue Hunter (my three gun rifle) and my N4 never let my friends down. I would say the piston concept on the AR needs a lot of work.
I got 3rd in Open class by the way and 4th overall. I won a JP lower with a trigger off the prize table.
The videos are in this thread.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1346543

Before this match I thought LWRC was good to go. Now I don't feel that way.
Pat

My three gun rifle set up
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/NoveskeRogueHunter.jpg

My patrol rifle and back up set up.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/NOveskeN4.jpg

pleaforwar
06-01-2011, 01:50
C'mon Pat. I hate the koolaide drinkers on both sides of the aisle, but I always saw you as an objective individual when it came to AR's. You're going to let two examples of piston guns sway your thoughts?

How about the loaner rifles certain instructors use that have several thousands of rounds through them? Consider them to be a fluke? How about Jeff Gonzales, of Trident Concepts, who stands behind the piston platform?

Look, I'm not saying I think one or the other is the only way to go when discussing a combat-capable carbine, but to be exclusionary... well, look at the individuals who take that approach. Next I can expect you to post generic pics you found on Google, then talking about your friends in "Force-Recon, SAS, DEVGRU, CAG, etc" and what they use, and finally discussing Army testing results you found on bubbatactical.com. :dunno:

Alaskapopo
06-01-2011, 02:20
C'mon Pat. I hate the koolaide drinkers on both sides of the aisle, but I always saw you as an objective individual when it came to AR's. You're going to let two examples of piston guns sway your thoughts?

How about the loaner rifles certain instructors use that have several thousands of rounds through them? Consider them to be a fluke? How about Jeff Gonzales, of Trident Concepts, who stands behind the piston platform?

Look, I'm not saying I think one or the other is the only way to go when discussing a combat-capable carbine, but to be exclusionary... well, look at the individuals who take that approach. Next I can expect you to post generic pics you found on Google, then talking about your friends in "Force-Recon, SAS, DEVGRU, CAG, etc" and what they use, and finally discussing Army testing results you found on bubbatactical.com. :dunno:

I saw what I saw. I am sure LWRC will make it right and replace the part that broke. Hopefully the POF gets running as well. But 2 examples out of a squad of 8 shooters is not good odds. Perhaps it was a fluke that the only 2 piston guns at a match with 26 shooters broke down. But it did not bode well for them. The LWRC has 1500 rounds through it.
Pat

DerekMK23
06-01-2011, 08:14
I saw what I saw. I am sure LWRC will make it right and replace the part that broke. Hopefully the POF gets running as well. But 2 examples out of a squad of 8 shooters is not good odds. Perhaps it was a fluke that the only 2 piston guns at a match with 26 shooters broke down. But it did not bode well for them. The LWRC has 1500 rounds through it.
Pat
Well nobody was running PWS and I hate to say one brand rocks everyone else but it does. It is ran on a completely different piston system from the 2 rifles you just described. Those are short stroke piston systems that are seperate pieces from the carrier. PWS is long piston that is a one piece piston system much more reliable in my eyes. I have never heard of PWS having a failure infact everyone that owns one reports back with just how reliable their rifles are. I dont care much for LWRC, and I cannot stand POF it is overweight gucci gear. The sad part is the owners of both companies seem like decent people so I hope they can figure something out. Like I said in a previous post my MK116 2000 another 500 and maybe I ll clean it.

DerekMK23
06-01-2011, 08:17
Oh and congratulations on taking 3rd! :)

K. Foster
06-01-2011, 12:29
Pat
Congrats on a good finish!

cfec2008
06-01-2011, 16:53
LaRue Tactical. Bravo Company. Daniel Defense. Lewis Machine and Tool

freedom790
06-01-2011, 21:40
I personally haven't used anything except my original FN made M16A2, my issued Colt M4, my personal Stag-15 and the MK12 clone I built. But every one of them worked without complaint. The only one I ever really ran through the ringers though was my M4, it has been dropped, thrown, fallen on, fell off a hmmwv going 45mph (dont ask), IED blast, and more damned dismounts than I care to remember. It never complained a single bit and I was bitter as hell when I had to give it up. Serial No. W118515, currently in the hands of TSgt Williams supporting OIF.

So,
Colt - because it has been through more doo doo than a roll of toilet paper and lived
My own build - because I was my own quality control, customer service, technical support, and gunsmith
Stag - pretty good, just left a little to be desired in accuracy
FN - Never fired it except for qualification, but damn could that thing shoot

pleaforwar
06-02-2011, 01:46
I saw what I saw. I am sure LWRC will make it right and replace the part that broke. Hopefully the POF gets running as well. But 2 examples out of a squad of 8 shooters is not good odds. Perhaps it was a fluke that the only 2 piston guns at a match with 26 shooters broke down. But it did not bode well for them. The LWRC has 1500 rounds through it.
Pat

Oh I don't doubt what you saw. But I would expect you to have the capability to realize two rifles do not define a platform.

For example, 3 out of 4 SCARs I have seen in various courses have had failures that required them to come off the line. Two of those were catastrophic failures. Do I think SCARs are pieces of crap? Of course not. Small sample size = inconclusive.

Subscribe to what you want, all I'm saying is that two rifles at a match are hardly a testament to an entire platform.

ETA: Congrats on your placement in the shoot. Forgive me for not congratulating you earlier, I was way too eager to discuss your assessment of piston guns. :supergrin:

DerekMK23: Cool story bro.

Alaskapopo
06-02-2011, 03:13
Oh I don't doubt what you saw. But I would expect you to have the capability to realize two rifles do not define a platform.

For example, 3 out of 4 SCARs I have seen in various courses have had failures that required them to come off the line. Two of those were catastrophic failures. Do I think SCARs are pieces of crap? Of course not. Small sample size = inconclusive.

Subscribe to what you want, all I'm saying is that two rifles at a match are hardly a testament to an entire platform.

ETA: Congrats on your placement in the shoot. Forgive me for not congratulating you earlier, I was way too eager to discuss your assessment of piston guns. :supergrin:

DerekMK23: Cool story bro.

No hard feelings here and thanks for the congrats.

But in my opinion I feel that pistons on AR's need more working out before I will trust them. The HK416 being an exception because it has been combat tested. This was the first time I have seen problems with Piston guns first hand but I have heard of several problems. Then there is the issue of carrier tilt. I am not saying we should throw they baby out with the bath water but at this time I would rather rely on the DI system that has been perfected over the last 40 some years. Now given more time and testing I think they may well get all the bugs worked out of pistons on AR's. But I don't think we are there yet and the advantages a piston offers are of little consequense to most users outside of suppressed SBR users.
Pat

Alaskapopo
06-02-2011, 03:24
LEOs on patrol? :rofl::rofl:Do you mean with their ARs in the trunk? Yeah, I bet the weight of their ARs (that have all of the stuff hanging off of them, like Military rifles) sure make a big dent in the weight of the 4000lb vehicles they drive.


C'mon guys, I like my DI AR as much as the next shooter, but times are changing, and for the better.

Yea we never get out of our cars.:upeyes:
I had one call at my first department where we were responding to an intoxicated individual shooting at people who drove by his camp sight across the river. It was wintertime so we got on our snowmachines and parked near where we thought the suspects camp was. (The LT was about 1/2 a mile off) So we were hiking in rifle rated body armor that weighed some 70 pounds with our rifles that weight close to 10 pounds at the time in waist deep snow. We were exhausted by the time we got to the guys camp. Fortunately he was passed out and things ended with not one getting hurt. But I can tell you that my rifle felt like it was made of lead by the end of that hike. Then there is building searches where after a while the weight of the rifle starts to fatique you. The simple fact is we carry these things more than we will ever shoot them. Lighter is better. I don't mind carring more weight if I get a significant benefit from it like my choice of a low power variable scope. It allows me to shoot much further out than irons or a red dot. But added weight that gives me no benefit is pointless.

As for times changing the piston system is not perfected yet. I will stick with tried and true until the bugs that I saw first hand are worked out.
Pat

M&P15T
06-06-2011, 08:00
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M&P15T,<o:p></o:p>
You obviously have no experience with ARs in law enforcement. I don’t know why you are arguing with people that do.You’ve already said you don’t train with your AR or plan to use it for home defense, so how can you say weight doesn’t matter to those that do? As someone who has carried one, I can assure you ounces=pounds.<o:p></o:p>
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Where did I say I didn't plan on using my AR for home defense? Not me. It would be the first thing I pick-up if I'm at home and something seems threatening. Train? Do you mean the shooting I did yesterday? The 200 rounds or so? What do you define as training? As far as weight goes, I'm sure that ounces DO equal pounds over hours of carrying one. What I've been saying is that most AR owners don't ever carry their AR around for hours, so the weight isn't an issue for most people. And most LEO ARs spend, what, 98% of their time in vehicles?

Yea we never get out of our cars.:upeyes:
I had one call at my first department where we were responding to an intoxicated individual shooting at people who drove by his camp sight across the river. It was wintertime so we got on our snowmachines and parked near where we thought the suspects camp was. (The LT was about 1/2 a mile off) So we were hiking in rifle rated body armor that weighed some 70 pounds with our rifles that weight close to 10 pounds at the time in waist deep snow. We were exhausted by the time we got to the guys camp. Fortunately he was passed out and things ended with not one getting hurt. But I can tell you that my rifle felt like it was made of lead by the end of that hike. Then there is building searches where after a while the weight of the rifle starts to fatique you. The simple fact is we carry these things more than we will ever shoot them. Lighter is better. I don't mind carring more weight if I get a significant benefit from it like my choice of a low power variable scope. It allows me to shoot much further out than irons or a red dot. But added weight that gives me no benefit is pointless.

As for times changing the piston system is not perfected yet. I will stick with tried and true until the bugs that I saw first hand are worked out.
Pat

It's all in context Pat. You work in an area that requires you to hike over hill and dale with your AR, but many LEOs in this country don't. And it sounds like it was the hike that killed ya, not your rifle in particular, and certainly nothing that a sling shouldn't help with.

I haven't been to the gym in a few months (just moved), and yesterday I shot two different ARs for a few hours with no slings, shooting from standing position and while on the move, with one that had a suppressor on it that made it front (and over-all) heavy as all get out, and I never had a fatigue problem. Granted, I set them down as I wanted, so I'll take that grain of salt right there.

I can can see where your experiences would make your opinions on DI/Piston lean all the way towards DI, but I've also read plenty of opinions and experiences leaning all the way to piston. I myself will probably never put enough stress on a rifle to prove anything about reliability, but when I purchase my LWRC, I'll be sure to provide feed-back. I hope it goes better than what you're reporting.:shocked:

d90king
06-06-2011, 09:31
I cant believe this BS is still going on...:crying: MP how in the world do you feel qualified to be able to discuss weight issues on a platform that you only use to shoot beer cans? Take a few classes and then report back that weight is meaningless to those of us that train hard with them, and use them for HD or LE etc...

Your lack of training is glaring in this thread which is why I ignored you over a week ago. The training industry for civilians, LE and .mil is booming and bigger now than it has ever been. Most realize what a great HD weapon the AR is so MANY civilians are seeking out quality training on the platform. I filled a 3 day HD class with Larry Vickers @ Blackwater in 3 days, guys are flying in from all over the country and many of them are just regular guys. Invest in yourself and get some quality training and see if that changes your perspective at all. If you need some help finding quality instruction I am more than happy to point you in the right direction.

M&P15T
06-06-2011, 10:00
I cant believe this BS is still going on...:crying: MP how in the world do you feel qualified to be able to discuss weight issues on a platform that you only use to shoot beer cans? Take a few classes and then report back that weight is meaningless to those of us that train hard with them, and use them for HD or LE etc...

Your lack of training is glaring in this thread which is why I ignored you over a week ago. The training industry for civilians, LE and .mil is booming and bigger now than it has ever been. Most realize what a great HD weapon the AR is so MANY civilians are seeking out quality training on the platform. I filled a 3 day HD class with Larry Vickers @ Blackwater in 3 days, guys are flying in from all over the country and many of them are just regular guys. Invest in yourself and get some quality training and see if that changes your perspective at all. If you need some help finding quality instruction I am more than happy to point you in the right direction.

If you want to insult, go to www.iamjuvenile.com (http://www.iamjuvenile.com) and have at it, other than that, grow-up. I can comment all I like about weight on an AR because I own and shoot one. Got that? You don't know me, don't know what I do at the range, so stop making assinine assumptions.

Now..........

Explain exactly at what specific measurement weight becomes an issue. Give me that magic number that no weapon should weigh more than. Remember that this entire conversation started over the few additional ounces a piston system might add to an AR, so answer in that context.......doesn't really exist, does it?

Explain exactly why weight is such an issue, when our troops carry rifles with masses of accessories on them, while they crawl up mountains in Afghanistan with 80lbs on their back. And then explain why they come back home and buy piston ARs and add optics, VFGs, etc........hmmmm, that's a toughy, ain't it?

Explain why anyone that uses an AR for HD would EVER have any concern about weight. Explain why adding a few ounces for a piston system (or optic, or light, or sling, or VFG/AFG, etc., etc.) is a problem for recreational or SD/HD shootes. None of the 1/2 dozen or so other AR shooters that were at the range yesterday, shooting their rifles with optics and grips and such had any problem. In fact, not one of them dropped their rifle and started crying. Also, it sure looks to me like people that actually use these for a living, you know, actual soldiers, don't have much of a problem with it.......so, this too, sounds like a rhetorical quesion.

Let me give you the answer; There isn't any problem for 98% of civilian AR owners.

Outside of carrying a rifle around hours in a day, no one has any problem with it. Realise that this represents 98% of civilian AR owners, and you can just stop with this non-sense. Would weight matter if you were at a course carrying an AR for several hours with no opportunity to set it down? Sure, if you're not in top shape, certainly.....but only while you were taking the course. The rest of the time, most people's shooting days spent at the range, weight doesn't matter. I get the impression that people go to training courses where they carry their weapons around for many hours, find their weapon feels heavy after those many hours, and then decide that everyone else's ARs are too heavy.

Reality check: Almost no civilian AR owners carry their AR around for hours, so adding ounces here and there with piston systems, Eotechs, Aimpoints, VFGs/AFGs, slings, etc, just doesn't matter.

Using an AR for HD? If you have an issue with the weight of your weapon in the few seconds to few minutes that it would take to end a situation, it's time to hit the gym, or switch to calling 911.

As far as training classes go, you mentioned that many of the guys that attend these classes are "regular guys." Well, if they're regular guys, they're there to learn how to handle an AR (and hopefull themselves) in the very slight chance that they'll need to use it in SD/HD, plus to have some fun......nothin' wrong with any of that. I fully support training and will get to one myself one of these days.

If those folks show up with their ARs festooned with multiple attatchements that get too heavy over a long day of training, that's understandable. Does that mean that stuff needs to come off? Does that mean that their piston AR should be swapped for a DI AR to save a few ounces? Nope. It means their rifle gets heavy after several hours of carrying it around, that's all. The average joes attending those courses are going to carry their rifles around for hours at a time only while they're at a training course. The rest of their shooting lives, they'll just be average joes practicing at the range.

d90king
06-06-2011, 11:40
If you want to insult, go to www.iamjuvenile.com (http://www.iamjuvenile.com) and have at it, other than that, grow-up.

I can comment all I like about weight on an AR because I own and shoot one. Got that? You don't know me, don't know what I do at the range, so stop making assinine assumptions.

Now..........

Explain exactly at what specific measurement weight becomes an issue. Give me that magic number that no weapon should weigh more than. Remeber that this entire conversation started over the few additional ounces a piston system might add to an AR, so answer in that context.

Explain exactly why weight is such an issue, when our troops carry rifles with masses of accessories on them, while they crawl up mountains in Afghanistan with 80lbs on their back. And then explain why they come back home and buy piston ARs and add optics.

Explain why anyone that uses an AR for HD would EVER have any concern about weight. Explain why adding a few ounces for a piston system (or optic, or light, or sling, or VFG/AFG, etc., etc.) is a problem for recreational or SD/HD shootes. Sure looks to me like people that actually use these for a living, you know, actual soldiers, don't have much of a problem with it.

Let me give you the answer; There isn't any problem.

Outside of carrying a rifle around hours in a day, no one has any problem with it. Realise that this represents 98% of civilian AR owners, and you can just stop with this non-sense. Would weight matter if you were at a course carrying an AR for several hours with no opportunity to set it down? Sure, if you're not in top shape, certainly.....but only while you were taking the course. The rest of your shooting days spent at the range, weight doesn't matter.

Using an AR for HD? If you have an issue with the weight of your weapon in the few seconds to few minutes that it would take to end a situation, it's time to hit the gym, or switch to calling 911.



I in no way was being insulting, I was simply calling it as I saw it. You have done nothing but argue with everyone who has said weight is a factor.

This post illustrates that you simply don't get it, not even a little bit either. You have done nothing but argue with every single poster who has said that weight is an important factor when setting up a carbine...

I will leave you with this. If you are a civilian and using a AR in a HD role dont you think it is prudent that you would seek out training so that you have sound TTP's? If the answer is yes... Then you would be humping your rifle for 10 hour days during classes. Do that for a few days with a 9=10lb rifle and then do it with a 7lb rifle and you will see what everyone is talking about. It would also allow you to interact with a lot of .mil and LE guys who will tell you what everyone else has been trying to tell you. Its not the brief moment in time that you are deploying it in a defensive role that people are talking about. Its the time that you have to invest in training and humping it that really matters. For LE that uses it on patrol it takes on a bigger role.

If you notice, most manufactures are doing everything in their power to reduce weight in their rifles because it is a BIG deal in todays AR market which is booming and manufactures are listening to customer demand which is lighter is better. You have seen everything from pencil barrels, spiral fluting, lighter rails, tube rails, stocks 14.5 's etc, etc... You have seen a top rifle builder do a complete line of LIGHT rifles in both 7.62 and 5.56 and he cant keep up with demand. That is generally a CLUE as to what the market wants.

FYI, guys on patrol are not rucking it, they carry a standard combat load out:tongueout:

Here is my non NFA training rifle. It weighs 7.2lbs fully dressed with T1, X300 and loaded. My previous training rifle (MRP) was 8.8lb and yes, you can really FEEL the difference after a long day at the range or in a class setting.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/a823a410.jpg

At the end of the day its your rifle, do as you want and run what works best for you. Just don't tell others who put 15-20k rounds down range a year what should work for them.

M&P15T
06-06-2011, 12:13
I in no way was being insulting, I was simply calling it as I saw it. You have done nothing but argue with everyone who has said weight is a factor.

This post illustrates that you simply don't get it, not even a little bit either. You have done nothing but argue with every single poster who has said that weight is an important factor when setting up a carbine...

I will leave you with this. If you are a civilian and using a AR in a HD role dont you think it is prudent that you would seek out training so that you have sound TTP's? If the answer is yes... Then you would be humping your rifle for 10 hour days during classes. Do that for a few days with a 9=10lb rifle and then do it with a 7lb rifle and you will see what everyone is talking about. It would also allow you to interact with a lot of .mil and LE guys who will tell you what everyone else has been trying to tell you. Its not the brief moment in time that you are deploying it in a defensive role that people are talking about. Its the time that you have to invest in training and humping it that really matters. For LE that uses it on patrol it takes on a bigger role.

If you notice, most manufactures are doing everything in their power to reduce weight in their rifles because it is a BIG deal in todays AR market which is booming and manufactures are listening to customer demand which is lighter is better. You have seen everything from pencil barrels, spiral fluting, lighter rails, tube rails, stocks 14.5 's etc, etc... You have seen a top rifle builder do a complete line of LIGHT rifles in both 7.62 and 5.56 and he cant keep up with demand. That is generally a CLUE as to what the market wants.

FYI, guys on patrol are not rucking it, they carry a standard combat load out:tongueout:

Here is my non NFA training rifle. It weighs 7.2lbs fully dressed with T1, X300 and loaded. My previous training rifle (MRP) was 8.8lb and yes, you can really FEEL the difference after a long day at the range or in a class setting.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/a823a410.jpg

At the end of the day its your rifle, do as you want and run what works best for you. Just don't tell others who put 15-20k rounds down range a year what should work for them.

Yes, yes you were snide and insulting with the "shooting at beer cans" comment. Don't even attempt to deny it. You don't like that I disagree with you, and that's where you retreat too. Instead of attempting to discuss the topic on merit and logic, you get insultive.

I have NEVER told anyone what should work for them, or what they should do with their rifle. Go back and re-read the thread if you think that is the case. What this all started as, was talking about piston systems, and the small ammount of weight that they would add to a rifle.

In fact, it is people such as yourself, working in the training class environment, that keep trying to tell everyone else that weight is king. I can understand your having such an opinion, but you and your kind need to understand that your opinion is valid only in the specific environment where someone is carrying around their weapon all day. And as I have said repeatedly, that is not the case for 98% of civilian AR owners. Even the civilian "average joes" that attend classes you set-up, will pretty much only be carrying around their ARs for an extended period of time at your class.....that's it. Almost every one of them will return from your classes and go back to being average joes, going to their favorite range and enjoying recreational shooting. Ya'll training class attenders believe that the specific environment of the training class should dictate everything, and that's complete horse-puckey.

If the training environment, and light weight uber-all, was truly king, then everyone would be going to the extreme of light-weight, the KISS rifle, not a thing on it. Our Military and LEOs would be walking around with bare-bones ARs.......and this is obviously also not the answer. Things like optics, VFGs/AFVs, lights, slings, etc. are what really add weight to ARs, and those things give civilians an absolute advantage in an HD/SD situation. Should those things be removed during training so that the attendee's rifles are that much lighter? Hell no! People need to train with what they would actually use in a bad situation. If their rifle is heavy after a few days, well....that's just what happens when you carry 8-10 pounds around for hours....it gets heavy......it's normal.

Are you starting to understand this now? These training classes you set-up, attend, partake in, whatever.....is absolutely NOT the environment that civilian AR HD/SD shooters should base their ARs on. It's a highly specialised and controlled environment where weight does matter, and in the real world of civilian recreational and HD/SD shooting, weight doesn't matter. It's you and your training buddies that advise AR manufacturers on what is important, and you guys are giving them information from the training environment, which has little to do with the civilian shooting environment. Is it any wonder that AR manufacturers believe that light-weight is king?

Is this making sense now? The only people for whom weight is truly an issue, are those that carry them around all day long. And in the civilian world, AR users only do that at a training class...that's it. And of course you'll never respond about how our Military uses many accessories on their rifles, and don't give a rip about the weight, will you? No, you won't, because it doesn't work with your view of things. I couldn't give a **** less about what you or Larry Vickers or anyone else thinks about weight, because I'm not in a class carrying my AR around for 8-10 hours. If I was, I'd understand that I would be there to train with my AR (Eotech and VFG), and I'd have to understand that my 8.5 lb AR is going to get heavy. I certainly wouldn't decide to change out my rifle for a lighter one, and skip all of the accessories, because of one day where I was carrying my rifle for 8-10 hours.

Lastly, as far as what infantry carry in Afghaistan, I'm going by information from books I've read on the fighting, and movies like Restrepo. 80lbs on their backs, all sorts of stuff on their rifles. They all seem to do it. Oh, and of course all of the stuff they hang of their rifles, that make them so heavy they cry like little girls about it......yeah, all of that stuff.:upeyes:

mixflip
06-06-2011, 13:29
How did I know this thread was going to go south? Gotta love the infighting with us firearms enthusiasts.

STI
06-06-2011, 15:46
What an amusing thread here, but I read it and enjoyed it, I have 2 AR's a Colt and a Rock River both work 100%, my choice is the RR hands down. Yes it gets heavy at the end of a day, it goes with me 7 days a week on the ranch and after checking and fixing fences daily I do feel the weight. All I have on it is an EOTech nothing else and doubt that I ever will, all those extras just arent useful to me, if they really were I would have them, possibly a flashlight for night maybe but I doubt it. I notice RR never made the list and wonder why, as mine runs great and is very accurate.

mjkeat
06-06-2011, 15:56
d90king, very well put.

--
I can only speak from my experience but we never carried rucks when on patrol in Afghanistan. We humped a combat load consisting of a weapon specific ammo load, and some comfort items as needed by choice/weather. Everything else was in our rucks hanging from a Humvee.

As far as things hanging off of our weapons, we only mounted the things we needed. There wasn't a single piece of equipment on our weapons that we didn't use on a regular basis.

I don't know about anyone else but I cant see in complete darkness which makes it very difficult to engage a target. Usually a PEQ and NODs solved that problem. As a M249 gunner a M145 came in quite handy for scanning longer distances even when not engaging targets. And of course the bipods were a must. I'm sitting here trying as hard as I can to think of a single guy who didn't use every piece of equipment on his firearm.

Weight was a very hot topic but walking around w/ "bare bones" firearms is just not an option anymore.

pleaforwar
06-06-2011, 19:12
M&P15:
Maybe you would like to share your personal experience with us. When did you serve again?

As a prior active duty Marine, and current soldier, I can say your expert "knowledge" is contrary to everything I have known about the military over the last 8 years. Do Marines/soldiers have to carry excessive weight at times? Yep. Do they have bare-bones rifles? Nope. Do they cry about carrying heavy weight? Well, some do, but most don't.

Does that mean a service member will go out of their way and load up extra weight because they enjoy being weighed down? Of course not. I will save every single ounce of weight I can because it does add up, regardless of the period of use.

Oh, and by the way, I physically train on a daily basis and I score a significantly higher APFT than the majority of soldiers 9 years my junior. I'm not what you would refer to as an out of shape individual.

Do us a favor, show some evidence that supports your points rather than regurgitate what you saw on a movie, Google, or Soldier of Fortune magazine. I'll make sure to not hold my breath.

Darkangel1846
06-06-2011, 20:23
Who has 10 different ARs? Most of these post are nonsense.
I have three ARs
one Oly Arms International match that I custom ordered back in 1992..1/8.5..it is deadly accurate, never had a jam but I use good ammo.
Preban Colt 1994.....1/7, also is deadly accurate when using Federal Gold match.
Bushmaster AK carbine....late 90s Bushmaster came out with a little carbine with an AK muzzle break.....this little carbine will shoot any ammo without a hickup and gets maybe 2 MOA with cheap russian ammo.
I've shot a Les Bare, DPMS, other bushmasters and to tell you the truth they all shoot about the same. I don't think that any of them can out shoot my Oly or my Colt....but thats JMHO:wavey:

M&P15T
06-07-2011, 07:15
M&P15:
Maybe you would like to share your personal experience with us. When did you serve again?

As a prior active duty Marine, and current soldier, I can say your expert "knowledge" is contrary to everything I have known about the military over the last 8 years. Do Marines/soldiers have to carry excessive weight at times? Yep. Do they have bare-bones rifles? Nope. Do they cry about carrying heavy weight? Well, some do, but most don't.

Does that mean a service member will go out of their way and load up extra weight because they enjoy being weighed down? Of course not. I will save every single ounce of weight I can because it does add up, regardless of the period of use.

Oh, and by the way, I physically train on a daily basis and I score a significantly higher APFT than the majority of soldiers 9 years my junior. I'm not what you would refer to as an out of shape individual.

Do us a favor, show some evidence that supports your points rather than regurgitate what you saw on a movie, Google, or Soldier of Fortune magazine. I'll make sure to not hold my breath.

Oh, so if I never served in the Military, I can't post here and express my opinions, is that right? Oh, o.k., you win.:upeyes:

The topic of conversation is that the extra few ounces that a piston system adds to a rifle is some type of major thing. I say that's b.s., and that the vast majority of civilian AR owners don't care if their rifle has those additional few ounces. With things like optics, grips and other accessories that get added to ARs, it just doesn't matter. I've repeatedly said that the only people that would care are people that have to carry their rifle for hours at a time, and that most of those people have all sorts of accessories on their rifles. Do you disagree with this?

Alaskapopo
06-07-2011, 10:46
Oh, so if I never served in the Military, I can't post here and express my opinions, is that right? Oh, o.k., you win.:upeyes:

The topic of conversation is that the extra few ounces that a piston system adds to a rifle is some type of major thing. I say that's b.s., and that the vast majority of civilian AR owners don't care if their rifle has those additional few ounces. With things like optics, grips and other accessories that get added to ARs, it just doesn't matter. I've repeatedly said that the only people that would care are people that have to carry their rifle for hours at a time, and that most of those people have all sorts of accessories on their rifles. Do you disagree with this?

Everyone has a right to express an opinion but frankly some peoples opinion means more than others. Some of us are talking about things we know nothing about (you) and some of us are talking from experience based on our chosen fields of employment. Extra weight does mean something its not something to dismiss.
Pat

pleaforwar
06-07-2011, 11:12
Oh, so if I never served in the Military, I can't post here and express my opinions, is that right? Oh, o.k., you win.:upeyes:

The topic of conversation is that the extra few ounces that a piston system adds to a rifle is some type of major thing. I say that's b.s., and that the vast majority of civilian AR owners don't care if their rifle has those additional few ounces. With things like optics, grips and other accessories that get added to ARs, it just doesn't matter. I've repeatedly said that the only people that would care are people that have to carry their rifle for hours at a time, and that most of those people have all sorts of accessories on their rifles. Do you disagree with this?

Quit being a drama queen and putting words in people's mouths. I said if you had any experience other than watching tv, reading magazines, or Google, then show it. Of course you didn't, hence my comment "I won't hold my breath".

As for your question, of course a few accessories are not a bad thing. The problem rises when I could have an 8.5 lb DI rifle with everything I need on it, or I'll have an 8.5 piston rifle to start with. Can I utilize a 12 pound rifle in a combat environment or a home defense environment? You bet. Would I want to? Hell no.

I don't care if I'm gonna use my rifle for five minutes of 6 months. I'm gonna make it as light as I can. Would you go to a fistfight with 5 lb dumbells in your hands and say it won't be a problem because it's only gonna last for 2 minutes? If you would, you will lose that fight my friend.

Go to a course and learn something about the platform you claim expertise in. I'm not holding anything against you because I was in your boots one day too, proffering advice on a subject I knew nothing about, but until you get some actual experience under your belt, you are nothing more than an armchair warrior.

M&P15T
06-07-2011, 11:25
Quit being a drama queen and putting words in people's mouths. I said if you had any experience other than watching tv, reading magazines, or Google, then show it. Of course you didn't, hence my comment "I won't hold my breath".

As for your question, of course a few accessories are not a bad thing. The problem rises when I could have an 8.5 lb DI rifle with everything I need on it, or I'll have an 8.5 piston rifle to start with. Can I utilize a 12 pound rifle in a combat environment or a home defense environment? You bet. Would I want to? Hell no.

I don't care if I'm gonna use my rifle for five minutes of 6 months. I'm gonna make it as light as I can. Would you go to a fistfight with 5 lb dumbells in your hands and say it won't be a problem because it's only gonna last for 2 minutes? If you would, you will lose that fight my friend.

Go to a course and learn something about the platform you claim expertise in. I'm not holding anything against you because I was in your boots one day too, proffering advice on a subject I knew nothing about, but until you get some actual experience under your belt, you are nothing more than an armchair warrior.

You're confused.

Go back and re-read the entire thread for comprehension. You obviously skipped that step. Words in people's mouth? When, where, with whom, about what? And you're calling ME a dramam queen? Sheeeesh!

Oh, and the "arm-chair warrior" quip? You're lack of maturity is showing son.

HAIL CAESAR
06-07-2011, 11:26
you are nothing more than an armchair warrior.

So is everyone that posts here that is not currently a combat Soldier or a LEO that is a SWAT officer.

25D's and small town Andy Taylor's don't apply. Neither do tactical college kids and vacuum salesman.

M&P15T
06-07-2011, 11:49
Everyone has a right to express an opinion but frankly some peoples opinion means more than others. Some of us are talking about things we know nothing about (you) and some of us are talking from experience based on our chosen fields of employment. Extra weight does mean something its not something to dismiss.
Pat

I know nothing about the type of rifle I own and enjoy shooting?:rofl:Just because people haven't been Military or LEO, ya'll look down with disdain on anyone that has an opinion you disagree with. Sorry to tell you this, but there are alot of people that own ARs that haven't been Military and LEO. Too bad buddy, there's gonna be people that don't agree with you, that's life.

And to give you a clue, many of the AR owners that aren't Military/LEO, don't post their AR threads in this forum, they do it in the General Firearms forum. I've asked posters why they posted their AR threads in the General Firearms thread, instead of here. Do you know why? People like you and PLEAFORWAR.

Good job, nice way of making GTs forums pleasant and inviting.:upeyes: Tell ya what, I'll let Eric know that this forum is strictly for Military/LEOs, and that you and PLEAFORWAR don't want anyone expressing opinions that aren't. I'm sure he'll love that.

Eric
06-07-2011, 12:00
Guys, if you want this forum to remain open, you need to give this childish crap a rest.