Looting in Joplin, MO and Tuscaloosa, AL [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DaveG
05-28-2011, 18:57
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20110429/NEWS/110429619?tc=ar

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-joplin-tornado-20110528,0,4124316.story

So many lowlifes were crawling around Tuscaloosa and are now looting Joplin after the record breaking storms. People's valuables have been blown around and are just sitting there waiting to be picked up by thieves.

What action do you think is justifiable AND LEGAL when confronting looters, particulary with the use of a firearm. Any cops or lawyers care to input?

How would you go about "securing" your neighborhood when the police are stretched too thin already...?

JK-linux
05-28-2011, 19:10
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20110429/NEWS/110429619?tc=ar

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-joplin-tornado-20110528,0,4124316.story

So many lowlifes were crawling around Tuscaloosa and are now looting Joplin after the record breaking storms. People's valuables have been blown around and are just sitting there waiting to be picked up by thieves.

What action do you think is justifiable AND LEGAL when confronting looters, particulary with the use of a firearm. Any cops or lawyers care to input?

How would you go about "securing" your neighborhood when the police are stretched too thin already...?

I'm not sure on legality, but I'd imagine that this would be a good time to have a neighborhood watch (or start one). Something like that would likely need so sort of facing with local LEOs as they might wonder why guys with AR-15's and 870's were lurking around the place at all hours. That said, if your gun safe was buried under several tons of house, you might need to find some new guns. I'd assume most of one's time would be doing back-breaking demo work, so fatigue would make things dicey with a gun at night with more tornados and looters on the horizon. Like I said, having frinds to help would be everything. I suppose you still need to show up for work too to pay that deductible, so add on more stuff to suck away guarding your worldly possessions. Maybe the best bet is to camp there for a week and haul as much away to storage, and then write the rest off. No much time to do all those things.

Angry Fist
05-28-2011, 19:14
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3_uYerU-GVg/TNtmxC5Ad9I/AAAAAAAAAQw/hKtk0Zd6iDc/s1600/katrina-beer-looter.jpg

Patchman
05-28-2011, 19:26
emigrate to Japan?

owl6roll
05-28-2011, 19:27
I was down in Tuscaloosa, last weekend....I've NEVER seen the like of distruction. It will make you cry to hear the stories people are telling. Then to have someone going through your stuff and taking it, I'd be skinning some folks.

longrangedog
05-28-2011, 19:28
I was in the 53rd Infantry Brigade, Florida National Guard, when hurricane Andrew hit the Miami area. We were there the day after and given the mission of providing assistance to the locals. That included security. The looters got started the day after and our MP patrols started that night. Mps were patrolling neighborhoods in Hummers and wearing NVGs. We caught bunches of looters. Word got out and the bad guys were driving by our camp (we were set up near the zoo) and firing random shots into our area. None of us got shot and I don't think any shots were fired by the GI's in their contact with the looters. I was glad when that mission ended.

Patchman
05-28-2011, 19:35
But seriously, I don't know what the laws are regarding valuables that were blown away and perhaps carried for miles by the forces of nature.

As for protecting what's left of your neighborhood, will you be stopping every face you don't recognize? Be available 24/7 (looters do not necessarily loot only during business hours) ? No easy answer.

alba666
05-28-2011, 19:49
I am about 10 blocks from the Tuscaloosa storm track in one of the Historic Districts.
My street is a cul-de-sac surrounded by backyard fences.
Two of us were taking turns doing walkabouts after the storm until dark.
First night with non-ground accessible windows open my son heard three separate looting arrests.
Next day I stayed home and did patrol again. House always had an adult or my 15 year old son in it (never empty).
National Guard hit the ground that afternoon and things calmed down by the next day.

Alabama has a pretty broad stand your ground Castle Doctrine. While you can't shoot for general looting (like Texas), entry into a dwelling to commit crime is pretty much a green light for deadly force. Getting any more specific and I'll be citing code and definitions.

alba666
05-28-2011, 20:04
Another issue is that the media and government are slow-playing the level of looting that occurred. For instance, looters had a running gun battle with Tuscaloosa police the evening after the tornado. That one has never seen any media coverage.

The lesson here - the wolves will be worse than the gubmint and the MSM media they own will admit so the sheep don't ask too many questions. After a catastrophe, be vigilant until reinforcements arrive.

kensteele
05-28-2011, 21:49
Also make sure your state laws are in order. In some states, the police can confiscate your weapons during a state of emergency. You will be defenseless.

Ruble Noon
05-28-2011, 22:08
Also make sure your state laws are in order. In some states, the police can confiscate your weapons during a state of emergency. You will be defenseless.

Indeed. The Greensburg tornado made that abundantly clear.

TBO
05-28-2011, 22:49
I think people would get upset by LE shooting looters.

ICARRY2
05-29-2011, 02:04
Well I don't know if you should shoot a looter dead, but pepper spray to the face and an aluminum baseball bat across the knuckles should send the appropriate message.

collim1
05-29-2011, 05:27
Store owner in Huntsville slept in his shop because of the looting. With the power being out he had no lighting and his alarm was not in service.

BG broke in, shop owner killed him. Next morning was cleared of any criminal charges. In AL in a SD shooting if no criminal charges are brought against you no civil suit will stand.

Atleast that is the way I heard it.

steveksux
05-29-2011, 07:17
But seriously, I don't know what the laws are regarding valuables that were blown away and perhaps carried for miles by the forces of nature. Hell, even your property ends up on someone else's property a few blocks away, far enough they don't recognize you, you've followed a trail of your stuff over there, and you're rooting through their stuff looking for yours, you'd sure look like a looter.



As for protecting what's left of your neighborhood, will you be stopping every face you don't recognize? Be available 24/7 (looters do not necessarily loot only during business hours) ? No easy answer.
True dat...

Randy

steveksux
05-29-2011, 07:19
I think people would get upset by LE shooting looters. Not if they were looting police stations... :tongueout::supergrin:

Randy

Patchman
05-29-2011, 07:42
Hell, even your property ends up on someone else's property a few blocks away, far enough they don't recognize you, you've followed a trail of your stuff over there, and you're rooting through their stuff looking for yours, you'd sure look like a looter.


This might be that one situation where a CCW badge would come in handy. Maybe even a T-shirt or jacket that says "SECURITY." :whistling:

barstoolguru
05-29-2011, 07:57
I hope they don't steal anyone's high capacity round mags........ I hate to see bg's with them

SouthernBoyVA
05-29-2011, 08:50
Also make sure your state laws are in order. In some states, the police can confiscate your weapons during a state of emergency. You will be defenseless.

That can't happen here in Virginia, but as I understand it in our neighbor just to the south of us (NC), during a state of emergency, you cannot carry a firearm outside of your property. We don't have to worry about anything like that here in Virginia.

Edmo01
05-29-2011, 09:24
This might be that one situation where a CCW badge would come in handy. Maybe even a T-shirt or jacket that says "SECURITY." :whistling:
When I roll up in this ride...
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w108/netnmo/chl_cop.jpg


with this CCW sash on, there is no question who is in charge...

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1054/ccwbanner.jpg

Edmo

happyguy
05-29-2011, 09:34
I think people would get upset by LE shooting looters.


Around here, not so much I think.

Sometimes the looters have the advantage though.

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Nicholas_Stix_86/New_Orleans_Police_Department_When_Cops_Loot_It_s__55485548.shtml

Regards,
Happyguy :)

kensteele
05-29-2011, 10:01
That can't happen here in Virginia, but as I understand it in our neighbor just to the south of us (NC), during a state of emergency, you cannot carry a firearm outside of your property. We don't have to worry about anything like that here in Virginia.

By law it cannot (same here in KS) but it won't stop an official from wanting to take your weapon saying there's a special order from the governor or this is martial law or some other magical powers. Make no mistake about it, the government will try to take your weapons however regardless. Having many weapons will help, too.

Bruce M
05-29-2011, 10:12
How would you go about "securing" your neighborhood when the police are stretched too thin already...?


As I recall after Hurricane Andrew, there were some neighborhoods where neighbors quickly banded together and slowed the looting in their areas substantially. It appeared to me that a combination of spray paint on prominent sides of (what was left of) houses or quickly erected plywood suggesting looting would be met with armed resistance coupled with rumors of home owners actually shooting at looters worked well. I am not certain if any shots were actually fired in the neighborhoods as we were far too busy attending to other issues, among them preparing reports of an occasional teenager or young man who ended up hospitalized because they had been shot, apparently quite a ways from their section eight residence.

SouthernBoyVA
05-29-2011, 11:20
By law it cannot (same here in KS) but it won't stop an official from wanting to take your weapon saying there's a special order from the governor or this is martial law or some other magical powers. Make no mistake about it, the government will try to take your weapons however regardless. Having many weapons will help, too.

Yes, you are right. Virginia has a law on the books which restricts law enforcement from doing what we saw in New Orleans, but an unscrupulous or despotic sheriff or police chief could still make things rough for folks... unless The People are willing to stand up against such illegal measures.

I have felt since day one after Katrina that what was needed in New Orleans was for maybe 50 to 100+ fully armed citizens to meet the local law enforcement and other "authorities" and let them know in no uncertain terms that they were going to be disarmed. There are times when the authority of the People has to, must, rise above those who would do that which is not their purview to do.

SouthernBoyVA
05-29-2011, 11:23
As I recall after Hurricane Andrew, there were some neighborhoods where neighbors quickly banded together and slowed the looting in their areas substantially. It appeared to me that a combination of spray paint on prominent sides of (what was left of) houses or quickly erected plywood suggesting looting would be met with armed resistance coupled with rumors of home owners actually shooting at looters worked well. I am not certain if any shots were actually fired in the neighborhoods as we were far too busy attending to other issues, among them preparing reports of an occasional teenager or young man who ended up hospitalized because they had been shot, apparently quite a ways from their section eight residence.

I recall reading of an incident where a homeowner was guarding his property, under some cover, and a band of looters seeing him, opened fire on him. He returned fire, hitting one in the head with a shot from his .44 Magnum revolver. The others fled. He did what he had to do.

David Armstrong
05-29-2011, 12:33
What action do you think is justifiable AND LEGAL when confronting looters, particulary with the use of a firearm. Any cops or lawyers care to input?
Two very different issues, IMO. Legal is pretty clear....what does the law say? Justifiable is a whole 'nother concept.

happyguy
05-29-2011, 12:46
Two very different issues, IMO. Legal is pretty clear....what does the law say? Justifiable is a whole 'nother concept.

I'm not going to just start shooting looters to protect property that has probably been destroyed anyway, but...

I'm willing to defend my and my neighbors property and I don't need a gun to do that. A baseball bat or a 2X4 should suffice for that.

If the looter escalates the situation to the point I fear death or serious bodily harm I may resort to a firearm to protect myself.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

21Carrier
05-29-2011, 20:13
I'm not going to just start shooting looters to protect property that has probably been destroyed anyway, but...

I'm willing to defend my and my neighbors property and I don't need a gun to do that. A baseball bat or a 2X4 should suffice for that.

If the looter escalates the situation to the point I fear death or serious bodily harm I may resort to a firearm to protect myself.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

I agree that that's the way it SHOULD work. Use a bat, or whatever, for deterrence, then if it escalates, draw and fire. HOWEVER, I have 15 family members in New Orleans that were there for Katrina (9 on West Bank, 6 East). The 6 that lived on the East Bank had to move in with my grandparents (their parents) on the West Bank since it was not underwater.

When they went back to see about their houses a few days later (in trucks/boats), there were looters all over, many with guns IN HAND. Not tucked "gangsta style" in their pants, but IN HAND, ready to fire. In situations like that, civilization has broken down. The rules and laws are no longer your primary concern. Now, survival becomes paramount. Your only concern is to not die at the hands of human scum. That means you, too, need guns at the ready, not tucked away so as to not scare the polite people.

I live in Birmingham, AL. Fortunately, I live in a suburb that was not demolished by the tornadoes of April 27, but I did go out there and try to help. Again, there were gaggles of worthless, vile, trash strutting around taking whatever they found on the streets. All the while, making sure everyone saw their "gun bumps". I even saw a guy take his shirt off with a Glock stuffed in his crotch, proudly displaying his "gat". I heard the same guy saying to a friend, "I need to find me a plasma TV".

Again, in times like these, the normal rules of engagement go out the window. If that were my house, and those were my precious things strewn about the street, you can BET I would be AT LEAST open carrying. At night, I'd have an open carry pistol on my hip, and a shotgun loaded with buckshot IN MY HANDS. The absolute LAST thing I ever want to do in my life is to shoot and/or kill another person, but when faced with situations like these, your state of readiness, alertness, and how you are armed must be increased.

Forgive me for being so passionate about this, but twice I've been touched by these disasters and the looting they inspire. I have NO compassion for these worthless pieces of trash we call "looters". They are stealing from people whose lives, houses, and everything contained within them have just been annihilated.

Looting is among the most horrific crimes imaginable, and it should be treated accordingly. I saw that the Birmingham police had arrested several looters and were planning to "make examples of them". I hope they rot in jail for a considerable period of time.

JackMac
05-29-2011, 20:17
When they come through my door....bang, bang....till they drop dead on the floor.

TexanRon
05-29-2011, 20:27
Can't speak for the other 49, but here in Texas, we take a 4X8 piece of plywood and paint "Looters will be shot". Everybody pretty much believes it.

Bruce M
05-30-2011, 05:58
... Make no mistake about it, the government will try to take your weapons however regardless. Having many weapons will help, too.

Any reports of confiscation from Joplin or Tuscaloosa yet?

oldsoldier
05-30-2011, 06:21
No, confiscation is ILLEGAL in the state of MO except for weapons seized in a crime. Section 23 of the MO Constitution Bill of Rights guarantees the right to bear arms in defense of home, person, and property. Weapons cannot be confiscated from law abiding citizens due to emergency, etc. This was pushed through right after the New Orleans disaster. I'm trying to find you a link to that specific law but haven't found it yet. Here is a link to the state constitution. http://www.mo.gov/search-results/?sn=0&en=10&gq=constitution

In addition we have castle doctrine and no duty to retreat on any property we own or lease. The no duty to retreat became effective on 28 Aug 2010. We have another change to our gun laws pending signature by the Governor that will be effective on 28 Aug 2012. That law will lower the age for CCW to 21 among other good things. For instance we will be allowed to make out of state gun purchases and will allow citizens of any other state to purchase guns here.

We are not worried about confisication of our guns and our rights.

RussP
05-30-2011, 06:31
In Joplin, Looters Prowl For What Twister Didn't Take (http://www.npr.org/2011/05/27/136712859/in-joplin-looters-prowl-for-what-twister-didnt-take)

Police Warning: Joplin Looters (http://fourstateshomepage.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=192497)

Joplin Looters Prey on Already Devastated Neighborhoods (http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979375921)

LApm9
05-30-2011, 08:14
When they went back to see about their houses a few days later (in trucks/boats), there were looters all over, many with guns IN HAND. Not tucked "gangsta style" in their pants, but IN HAND, ready to fire. In situations like that, civilization has broken down.

My observation is that these types are in no real mood for a shoot-out and tend to avoid others whom they think to be armed. They carry mainly to intimidate the unarmed (and deal with people with baseball bats). After hurricanes we always have those characters driving around aimlessly and eyeballing everything. They leave pretty fast when they get a "hard look".

I live in Birmingham, AL. Fortunately, I live in a suburb that was not demolished by the tornadoes of April 27, but I did go out there and try to help. Again, there were gaggles of worthless, vile, trash strutting around taking whatever they found on the streets. All the while, making sure everyone saw their "gun bumps". I even saw a guy take his shirt off with a Glock stuffed in his crotch, proudly displaying his "gat". I heard the same guy saying to a friend, "I need to find me a plasma TV".


They ought to be careful driving around areas like that. Sharp debris can cut the sidewall of a tire just like a knife.

akapennypincher
05-30-2011, 08:19
Several times in our Nation History those IN CHARGE at Disasters have given permission to the National guard, and Law Enforcement to Shoot Looters, and the looting Stopped!

A6Gator
05-30-2011, 08:23
Also make sure your state laws are in order. In some states, the police can confiscate your weapons during a state of emergency. You will be defenseless.

Laws in the Volunteer State prevent confiscation during martial law or natural disasters and also preclude restrictions on sales of firearms and ammo. Passed here in May, 2009.

DustyJacket
05-30-2011, 08:24
For instance we will be allowed to make out of state gun purchase.
I thought that was long guns only, but I have not read the actual wording.

happyguy
05-30-2011, 08:47
I agree that that's the way it SHOULD work. Use a bat, or whatever, for deterrence, then if it escalates, draw and fire. HOWEVER, I have 15 family members in New Orleans that were there for Katrina (9 on West Bank, 6 East). The 6 that lived on the East Bank had to move in with my grandparents (their parents) on the West Bank since it was not underwater.

When they went back to see about their houses a few days later (in trucks/boats), there were looters all over, many with guns IN HAND. Not tucked "gangsta style" in their pants, but IN HAND, ready to fire. In situations like that, civilization has broken down. The rules and laws are no longer your primary concern. Now, survival becomes paramount. Your only concern is to not die at the hands of human scum. That means you, too, need guns at the ready, not tucked away so as to not scare the polite people.

I live in Birmingham, AL. Fortunately, I live in a suburb that was not demolished by the tornadoes of April 27, but I did go out there and try to help. Again, there were gaggles of worthless, vile, trash strutting around taking whatever they found on the streets. All the while, making sure everyone saw their "gun bumps". I even saw a guy take his shirt off with a Glock stuffed in his crotch, proudly displaying his "gat". I heard the same guy saying to a friend, "I need to find me a plasma TV".

Again, in times like these, the normal rules of engagement go out the window. If that were my house, and those were my precious things strewn about the street, you can BET I would be AT LEAST open carrying. At night, I'd have an open carry pistol on my hip, and a shotgun loaded with buckshot IN MY HANDS. The absolute LAST thing I ever want to do in my life is to shoot and/or kill another person, but when faced with situations like these, your state of readiness, alertness, and how you are armed must be increased.

Forgive me for being so passionate about this, but twice I've been touched by these disasters and the looting they inspire. I have NO compassion for these worthless pieces of trash we call "looters". They are stealing from people whose lives, houses, and everything contained within them have just been annihilated.

Looting is among the most horrific crimes imaginable, and it should be treated accordingly. I saw that the Birmingham police had arrested several looters and were planning to "make examples of them". I hope they rot in jail for a considerable period of time.

That is indeed a different situation.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

kensteele
05-30-2011, 12:46
Any reports of confiscation from Joplin or Tuscaloosa yet?

None officially but as usual we will have to wait a little bit later to hear about the unlawful confiscation activities. I understand there are laws in many states making systematic and official confiscation unlawful.

Happy Hunting
05-30-2011, 14:15
The tornado in Tuscaloosa almost entirely missed where large concentrations of students lived. The poorer and mostly black areas took a pounding. Areas that had a lot of damage had nat'l guard blocking entrances and curfews.

I had not heard of this gun battle after the storm, because I was only listening to the radio. I heard all kinds of rumors about looters or lootees being shot near University Village but nothing was confirmed.

There was definitely not any confiscation around here. Quite the contrary: every gun store was sold out after the storm.

TexasFats
06-01-2011, 12:38
Well I don't know if you should shoot a looter dead, but pepper spray to the face and an aluminum baseball bat across the knuckles should send the appropriate message.

And a good, swift kick to the "family jewels" would provide reinforcement, unless the looters had guns.

Angry Fist
06-01-2011, 17:12
Well I don't know if you should shoot a looter dead, but AF's aluminum baseball bat across the face should send the appropriate message.:whistling:



:rock:

alba666
06-01-2011, 20:33
The tornado in Tuscaloosa almost entirely missed where large concentrations of students lived. The poorer and mostly black areas took a pounding. Areas that had a lot of damage had nat'l guard blocking entrances and curfews.

I had not heard of this gun battle after the storm, because I was only listening to the radio. I heard all kinds of rumors about looters or lootees being shot near University Village but nothing was confirmed.

There was definitely not any confiscation around here. Quite the contrary: every gun store was sold out after the storm.

Anyplace dealing in guns, mags or ammo (especially JHP) is in short supply.
Good thing I order mags & ammo online. Did the Wally World walk the other day and the only .40 cal was junk.

The gun battle report was from Forest Lake from a source I trust.
Last time I drove by there, the PODS clone container was still in the shallows and the lake was deep BLUE. It's never been that color - no more shade trees.

OldScribe2009
06-02-2011, 14:31
Forgive me for being so passionate about this, but twice I've been touched by these disasters and the looting they inspire. I have NO compassion for these worthless pieces of trash we call "looters". They are stealing from people whose lives, houses, and everything contained within them have just been annihilated.

Looting is among the most horrific crimes imaginable, and it should be treated accordingly. I saw that the Birmingham police had arrested several looters and were planning to "make examples of them". I hope they rot in jail for a considerable period of time.

I'm not going to knock your opinion. I agree. Plus, I think LEOs and National Guard should be able to shoot to kill looters after a disaster like Andrew and Katrina and the Tusaloosa twisters. Just kill'em. The world will be a better place without them, guaranteed.

Donn57
06-02-2011, 15:05
Looting is among the most horrific crimes imaginable, and it should be treated accordingly.

I think not.

ferretray
06-08-2011, 05:21
By law it cannot (same here in KS) but it won't stop an official from wanting to take your weapon saying there's a special order from the governor or this is martial law or some other magical powers. Make no mistake about it, the government will try to take your weapons however regardless. Having many weapons will help, too.

Post Katrina, Governor Rick Perry (Tx.) made it quite clear that the gun confiscations ala. New Orleans would be a violation of Texas law.

ferretray
06-08-2011, 05:24
I think not.

Thanks for admitting it. :supergrin:

vafish
06-08-2011, 12:46
Disasters like theses are why you should take about $1,000 and buy a dozen mn 91/30's and a case of ammo to ARM your neighbors with.

tslex
06-08-2011, 13:59
As for post-Hurricane Andrew, there are a lot of stories that have not been told. South Miami-Dade County was essentially lawless for a couple of days and some neighborhoods required pretty active, um, “neighborhood watch” for nearly two weeks.

Were there shots fired? Many many. Were any looters, um, permanently discouraged? Some were.

Story from post Hurricane Wilma.

Not a terrible storm here, some roof and tree damage, no power for a couple of days. By mid-morning the storm had blown through and me and neighbors (maybe 10 of us) were out in the middle of street counting roof tiles, drinking coffee (always make a thermos of coffee the night before a storm!), thanking the Lord it was cool out, thinking about getting the chain saws going.

This rattletrap van comes slow rolling down the street with four guys in the front seat. NOT a neighbor. They are just cruising down the street looking right and left. They reach our group and we part to let them through.

What we know that they evidently don’t is that we live on a cul-de-sac. When they get back to us about five minutes later, it looks like a Blackwater alumni convention. Every person in the group is now holding some sort of long gun – ARs, shotguns, hunting rifles – and my buddy’s truck is pulled across the street.

Van stops. I walk to driver’s window and do that “roll down your window” thing with finger. He rolls down window. I say exactly this: “Pick. Another. Street.”

Buddy backs up truck, van pulls through, gets about 20 yards away and accelerates out of the street.

I confess – it was kinda cool. Just a moment that worked very well.

TexasFats
06-09-2011, 11:34
I remember seeing a photo of a sign from after Hurricane Rita, that hit Beaumont, Texas, not long after Katrina hit NOLA. It showed a neighborhood group, well-armed, standing next to a sign that read:

"Drunks with Guns.
You loot,
We shoot." :rofl::rofl::supergrin::supergrin:

I loved it. Sorry that I no longer have the link or a copy of it.