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4949shooter
06-04-2011, 05:58
I didn't see this posted yet:

http://www.kvoa.com/news/newly-released-documents-show-ice-was-investigating-jose-guerena/

Search Warrant:

http://www.kvoa.com/files/Scanned%20Document0582_000.pdf

Sheriff Interview:

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14831062/raw-video-sheriff-dupnik-opens-up-about-fatal-swat-raid?redirected=true

Dragoon44
06-04-2011, 06:59
So he might not be canonized after all? what a surprise.

:whistling:

ghstface38
06-04-2011, 07:30
Good PC.

I'm watching a discussion on a local board, tngunowners.com, and they're attacking the Police, as most gun nuts do. I know reading the warrant won't stop them, but it makes me feel better.

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 07:40
Post it down in PI all they will see is a free american availing himself of the government teat, and using his rights of free travel and association.

txleapd
06-04-2011, 07:41
Where are all of our little oathkeepers, to tell us what a great guy he was? :upeyes:

Sam Spade
06-04-2011, 08:09
Post it down in PI...

I put it in the helmet cam thread. Not many replies and no significant uptick in views. I suspicion that minds are made up.

There's more to come.

merlynusn
06-04-2011, 08:35
That's a good warrant. Clearly lays out their PC.

Dragoon44
06-04-2011, 08:49
I put it in the helmet cam thread. Not many replies and no significant uptick in views. I suspicion that minds are made up.

There's more to come.

it's like I said in the thread there, they could care less about the facts. they don't like SWAT teams so the cops are wrong, PERIOD.

michpatriot
06-04-2011, 09:12
God was with the SWAT team on that day...The safety on the AR was just too complex for dingbat drugboy.:supergrin: This warrant needs to be distributed and broadcasted to the nation...:whistling:

Dragoon44
06-04-2011, 09:29
God was with the SWAT team on that day...The safety on the AR was just too complex for dingbat drugboy.:supergrin: This warrant needs to be distributed and broadcasted to the nation...:whistling:

The flashbang they deployed may be the primary reason he never got the safety off and into action.

CAcop
06-04-2011, 10:46
I put it in the helmet cam thread. Not many replies and no significant uptick in views. I suspicion that minds are made up.

There's more to come.

I like how the usual suspect drug up something from 1992 to try to keep his case going.

GPalmer
06-04-2011, 11:56
Hard to believe that anyone could read that search warrant and still think he was an angel. To get that much detail required a long, very professional investigation.

Ajon412
06-04-2011, 12:43
Hard to believe that anyone could read that search warrant and still think he was an angel. To get that much detail required a long, very professional investigation.

Why would ANYONE let something like oh,I don't know, the FACTS get in the way.....:dunno:

Dragoon44
06-04-2011, 12:47
I like how the usual suspect drug up something from 1992 to try to keep his case going.

It's the one he always drags up, I think the guy may have owned him money or something.

:rofl::rofl:

Kahr_Glockman
06-04-2011, 12:48
I would like to see what they redacted from the warrant. Granted I am sure that it was to protect CI's and or undercover officers.

Good warrant. Outlines the property and the reasons for the search.

Kadetklapp
06-04-2011, 13:07
Just read the search warrant.


This is for you, Oath Sniffers-
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/2/LOL.jpg

DaBigBR
06-04-2011, 13:13
I would like to see what they redacted from the warrant. Granted I am sure that it was to protect CI's and or undercover officers.

Good warrant. Outlines the property and the reasons for the search.

I found the counter-surveillance and subsequent inquiry on the surveillance vehicle's tag pretty interesting.

Kahr_Glockman
06-04-2011, 13:18
I found the counter-surveillance and subsequent inquiry on the surveillance vehicle's tag pretty interesting.

No kidding, I bet someone goes to jail for that eventually.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 13:31
Where are all of our little oathkeepers, to tell us what a great guy he was? :upeyes:

He is guilty of what?

The only thing that can be proved that he is guilty of is............he is dead.

Dragoon44
06-04-2011, 14:12
He is guilty of what?



Very bad judgment.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 14:58
Very bad judgment.

I'll give you that.

Still the just waking up.........the confusion............the gun in hand......wrong place at the wrong time.................

We will never know his intent with the gun.

I have not seen any video of him actually pointing the gun?

Even if he was "pointing" the gun..........there was enough "going on" to not know what was going on. I'm slow. I doubt he was slower then me, but, maybe.

Bruce M
06-04-2011, 15:30
This probably does not apply but I wonder if he had not made the conscious decision to be involved in criminal activity, if this would have not happened?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 15:34
Those eight redacted lines (378-385) are proof positive the SWAT good 'ole boys conspired to kill him on the spot.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 15:37
This probably does not apply but I wonder if he had not made the conscious decision to be involved in criminal activity, if this would have not happened?

Well his brother allegedly is into some sort of criminal activity.
Do we disown our own, when they are not in line with the societal norm?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 15:44
Disown? Two brothers working together to achieve the American dream. Mom and dad helping out. Their family values are solid.

Sam Spade
06-04-2011, 15:48
Do we disown our own, when they are not in line with the societal norm?

So a blue wall (or whatever color dopers/miners use) is okay?


In the larger picture, the conflict between honor and loyalty is a *****. it's destroyed good men.

ICARRY2
06-04-2011, 15:59
Reading the search warrant was interesting.

The guy, regardless of his military servie (btw Hitler was in the militay too), was a scumbag drug dealer. And he got what he deserved. Especially after trying to murder police officers.

I can't say I am shocked to learn this was the case the entire time.

I just don't see the police setting up honest, hardworking, and innocent people. Especially combat veteran Marines.

4949shooter
06-04-2011, 16:06
Well his brother allegedly is into some sort of criminal activity.
Do we disown our own, when they are not in line with the societal norm?

The facts listed on the warrant led a judge to believe the decedent had more going on than just a brother involved in illicit activity.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:08
Disown? Two brothers working together to achieve the American dream. Mom and dad helping out. Their family values are solid.

Allegedly.

And so the picture is painted for us.

Can't try(is that the verb form of trial?) a dead man.

Again..........he is guilty of what?

A messed up family? Yeah. Kill them.

4949shooter
06-04-2011, 16:11
That's fine guys. The judge signed a search warrant for the decedent's residence, not a death warrant.

Now there may be some factors that are being overlooked, like why did the decedent pick up an AR when his wife woke him? Did he expect a visit from the police? Did he expect a visit from rival drug dealers? Did he expect a visit from the same home invaders that murdered members of his family? Are the last two one in the same?

Why did he pick up a rifle? Why? If I knew the police were coming to my door, the first thing on my list to do wouldn't be to pick up a battle rifle. Don't forget, I wasn't ALWAYS an LEO.

Why did he feel it necessary to pick up that weapon?

Why?

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:19
So a blue wall (or whatever color dopers/miners use) is okay?


In the larger picture, the conflict between honor and loyalty is a *****. it's destroyed good men.


Yup.

Lots of us get through the whole gambit of dealing with our messed up kin, and associates, without having our doors busted down, and the stit killed out of us. Not all though. It is a dilemma none the less. Most seem to choose loyalty over idealism. Maybe to our own harm we are wired that way.

Idealism wins out in the end.

Sam Spade
06-04-2011, 16:27
Why?

Of course I don't know. The wife is key here. She admits hearing the siren and shouting, and at that time she was already in the closet and had already seen him arm himself. It's entirely possible that she told him that some rivals were about to do a rip and he reacted to that. It's entirely possible that he figured out it was the popo just a hair too late, and the "Say allo to my lil fren" speech was supposed to be gangster v gangster BS. From my seat, that's the speculation that fits the testimony with the fewest contortions and assumptions.

Never gonna *know*...but we make decisions based on actions, not unreadable thought.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:28
That's fine guys. The judge signed a search warrant for the decedent's residence, not a death warrant.

Now there may be some factors that are being overlooked, like why did the decedent pick up an AR when his wife woke him? Did he expect a visit from the police? Did he expect a visit from rival drug dealers? Did he expect a visit from the same home invaders that murdered members of his family? Are the last two one in the same?

Why did he pick up a rifle? Why? If I knew the police were coming to my door, the first thing on my list to do wouldn't be to pick up a battle rifle. Don't forget, I wasn't ALWAYS an LEO.

Why did he feel it necessary to pick up that weapon?

Why?

Does it matter what time it is?

I have seen advertisement for Hornaday Critical Defence where a guy picks up his hand gun in the middle of the night, with a laser on it, and confronts a home invader. He was faster and won, was the advertisements message.

So people who have guns in their houses for self defense tend to pick them up when there is something going on. Why? Why? We can not ask Jose. He is dead.

4949shooter
06-04-2011, 16:31
Does it matter what time it is?

I have seen advertisement for Hornaday Critical Defence where a guy picks up his hand gun in the middle of the night, with a laser on it, and confronts a home invader. He was faster and won, was the advertisements message.

So people who have guns in their houses for self defense tend to pick them up when there is something going on. Why? Why? We can not ask Jose. He is dead.

Yes, but WHY may he have been expecting a visit from armed invaders?

Was it the lifestyle he was leading?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 16:35
Allegedly.

And so the picture is painted for us.

Can't try(is that the verb form of trial?) a dead man.

Again..........he is guilty of what?

A messed up family? Yeah. Kill them.


The whole family? That's quite a bit of drama you got going.

As you noted, can't try a dead man. Nor can one be indicted. So his upstanding-good-citizen status is intact and remains as pure as the driven snow.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:38
Yes, but WHY may he have been expecting a visit from armed invaders?

Was it the lifestyle he was leading?

He is not going to tell us.

When I get woken, I grab my handgun..........why? I don't have a shot gun.

He may well have just though he was getting robbed.

Simple as that.

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 16:41
Does it matter what time it is?

I have seen advertisement for Hornaday Critical Defence where a guy picks up his hand gun in the middle of the night, with a laser on it, and confronts a home invader. He was faster and won, was the advertisements message.

So people who have guns in their houses for self defense tend to pick them up when there is something going on. Why? Why? We can not ask Jose. He is dead.

he is dead because of the poor choices he made.

DMF
06-04-2011, 16:43
Does it matter what time it is?

I have seen advertisement for Hornaday Critical Defence where a guy picks up his hand gun in the middle of the night, with a laser on it, and confronts a home invader. He was faster and won, was the advertisements message.

So people who have guns in their houses for self defense tend to pick them up when there is something going on. Why? Why? We can not ask Jose. He is dead.Advertising plays on people emotions, fears, prejudices, etc, to sell products. It is not factual documentary film making.

What that advertising neglects is that the overwhelming majority of home invasion robberies, not burglaries, but home invasion robberies, target drug dealers. They target those "victims" in an effort to steal large quantities of drugs and cash. The vast majority of people who have a valid reason to believe they are likely target of a home invasion robbery are drug dealers.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:50
he is dead because of the poor choices he made.


Yeah that, and how many bullets? LOL.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 16:53
Does it matter what time it is?

Daylight (9 A.M.?) is a lot different than 3 A.M.


I have seen advertisement for Hornaday Critical Defence where a guy picks up his hand gun in the middle of the night, with a laser on it, and confronts a home invader. He was faster and won, was the advertisements message.

Ah, the basis of your life experiences? How quaint. But I think the basis of Jose's life experiences are a little more, how you say... reality and occupationally based?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 16:57
He is not going to tell us.

When I get woken, I grab my handgun..........why? I don't have a shot gun.

He may well have just though he was getting robbed.

Simple as that.

More like he thought "they" were coming to have a chat with him, his wife and his kids.

And may I recommend to you the Mossberg 500. 18-inch slug barrel.

S.O.Interceptor
06-04-2011, 16:58
Yeah that, and how many bullets? LOL.

Enough to stop the threat.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 16:58
Advertising plays on people emotions, fears, prejudices, etc, to sell products. It is not factual documentary film making.

The vast majority of people who have a valid reason to believe they are likely target of a home invasion robbery are drug dealers.

Wow. Thanks for clearing that up. I've been played!

So I don't need to grab my pistol when I hear something in the middle of the night and go to investigate?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 17:02
Wow. Thanks for clearing that up. I've been played!

So I don't need to grab my pistol when I hear something in the middle of the night and go to investigate?

Just a minor detail that differs from Jose's.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 17:06
Daylight (9 A.M.?) is a lot different than 3 A.M.




Ah, the basis of your life experiences? How quaint. But I think the basis of Jose's life experiences are a little more, how you say... reality and occupationally based?


Patchman..............he was sleeping.

I guess the slow-wit didn't know that robberies never happen at 9 A.M.

His occupation was a blue collar miner.............yes I am a blue collar worker. 41,000 a year........pretty close to my base pay. I guess you are right about that........my life experience is influencing my interpretation of the scene.

Kadetklapp
06-04-2011, 17:12
Patchman..............he was sleeping.

I guess the slow-wit didn't know that robberies never happen at 9 A.M.

His occupation was a blue collar miner.............yes I am a blue collar worker. 41,000 a year........pretty close to my base pay. I guess you are right about that........my life experience is influencing my interpretation of the scene.

So....you're saying that SWAT can't shoot anyone or serve warrants during daylight hours?


Got it.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 17:13
Just a minor detail that differs from Jose's.

I've worked 2nd and 3rd shift. Sleep when you can. Sleep hard when you can.

Wife gave him some kind of a report of men with guns?

Tucson......is that a bad place?

Oh well.............his choices killed him. He was a confused slow wit and that is what got him dead.

We have to quit thinking like there is a threat around every corner.......it can get us killed.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 17:20
You're the one who made several references to "middle of the night."

Until I brought it to your attention, you had no idea at what time of the day or night the warrant was executed, did you? Pathetic.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 17:25
So....you're saying that SWAT can't shoot anyone or serve warrants during daylight hours?


Got it.

Not saying that at all.

I just think the picture being painted about the shooting, may well be much different then the actual facts.

I don't think that busting down his door was called for. Does it matter what I think? I'm just a citizen being influenced by the media........and my life experience.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 17:28
You're the one who made several references to "middle of the night."

Until I brought it to your attention, you had no idea at what time of the day or night the warrant was executed, did you? Pathetic.

I knew since I've been arguing the same points for two weeks now.
I have the guys name and Tucson in a google alert. Get a new one every day.

You find me pathetic?

Sad. I respect you just fine Patchman.

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 17:30
Yeah that, and how many bullets? LOL.

Bullets that would have never been fired if he behaved like a husband and father instead of a thug.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 17:50
We have to quit thinking like there is a threat around every corner.......it can get us killed.

A threat around the corner? You mean like a guy likely involved in violent crimes screaming "I've got something for you" with an AR pointed at you? That sort of threat?

NMG26
06-04-2011, 17:57
A threat around the corner? You mean like a guy likely involved in violent crimes screaming "I've got something for you" with an AR pointed at you? That sort of threat?


Alleged.....all that. Do you really believe the "I've got something for you" stuff?

NMG26
06-04-2011, 18:03
Bullets that would have never been fired if he behaved like a husband and father instead of a thug.

Suspected thug.

You want to talk about disregard for his family? How about busting down the door, not knowing wether there where kids in the room or not? That one cuts both ways.

The guy worked.
The guy got surprised.
The guy got dead.
You got in your mind that he was a thug.........that has not been proved.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 18:05
Alleged.....all that. Do you really believe the "I've got something for you" stuff?

Having served over 300 warrants, been on dozens and dozens of barricaded persons and been involved in 2 OISs personally and several others where other officers on scene did the shooting in my presence it is consistent with what I have observed to be what a violent person confronted by police tends to do. So yes, I am inclined to believe it based on my experience with the psyche of the type of person the facts available are showing him to be.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 18:09
Suspected thug.

You want to talk about disregard for his family? How about busting down the door, not knowing wether there where kids in the room or not? That one cuts both ways.

The guy worked.
The guy got surprised.
The guy got dead.
You got in your mind that he was a thug.........that has not been proved.

The guy robbed people.
The guy wasn't being taken without a fight by police.
They guy got dead.
You got in your mind that he was a victim.......that has not been proved.

I can do that too. The difference is that all evidence and critical thinking leads away from your insistence and towards mine.

Buy hell, there's a fair number of people who are convinced the world is flat still too. I mean, after all we'll never "KNOW".

Patchman
06-04-2011, 18:29
I knew since I've been arguing the same points for two weeks now.
I have the guys name and Tucson in a google alert. Get a new one every day.

You find me pathetic?

Sad. I respect you just fine Patchman.

Two weeks? I brought that information to your attention just now. For two weeks it's been middle of the night.

As for your Google alerts, etc, who know if that's true.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 18:33
Suspected thug.

The guy worked.
The guy got surprised.
The guy got dead.
You got in your mind that he was a thug.........that has not been proved.

And it will never be proved. As you noted, a dead guy cannot be indicted or tried. His death cemented his place in society as a choir boy.

His hero status remains intact.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 18:38
You want to talk about disregard for his family? How about busting down the door, not knowing wether there where kids in the room or not? That one cuts both ways.


I tend to believe he placed his own family members in jeopardy by going into the family business.

I mean, his competitors would certainly have at some point stopped by to have a chat with them all. Jose doesn't like to chat?

Kadetklapp
06-04-2011, 18:39
Not saying that at all.

I just think the picture being painted about the shooting, may well be much different then the actual facts.

I don't think that busting down his door was called for. Does it matter what I think? I'm just a citizen being influenced by the media........and my life experience.

Should they have called on the phone and served the warrant that way? Knocked and then ran giggling to their flower-painted VW Bus? Seriously?

NMG26
06-04-2011, 18:46
Two weeks? I brought that information to your attention just now. For two weeks it's been middle of the night.

As for your Google alerts, etc, who know if that's true.

Patchman..........."In the middle of the night was talking about me".........I sleep at night.

I have worked 2nd and 3rd shifts and have been dead asleep at 9 AM.

This is kind of silly.

I knew what time the incident happened two weeks ago. That is when I started arguing in the different threads on the issue. Many of them have been locked and gone. I have not changed the way or what I have been arguing. The guy was woken and killed. Same thing I said two weeks ago..........and yeah, I knew it was in the middle of the morning.


As for your Google alerts, etc, who know if that's true.

Why whould I lie?

So now I am a pathetic liar?

Patchman, I really have no reason to lie about this particular little thing.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 18:55
Should they have called on the phone and served the warrant that way?

I don't know Kadetklapp. I was on my way to work one morning before the sun was up and there was a cop outside my gate. He asked me for some ID, and said he was looking for my son, who does not live at my house anymore, about a warrant. I told him that my son did not live there anymore, and I told him where he could find my son. He then asked if he could go inside and take a look. I said, no you may not, and he seemed ok with that. I left and he did not go where I told him my son was. That is the only experience I have with warrants.

Knocked and then ran giggling to their flower-painted VW Bus? Seriously?

Oh I don't know...........in an interview they said that wait 15 seconds and then breach.........yes, I think that is a little quick, and yes, I think it got someone dead because of how fast it all went down.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 18:55
Why whould I lie?

So now I am a pathetic liar?

Patchman, I really have no reason to lie about this particular little thing.

Oh, I have no idea. But I have it in my mind you're lying. And nothing will dissuade me from that position.

Argue all you want to the contrary. My mind is made up.

You're a lier. Now and forever more.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 18:55
Patchman..........."In the middle of the night was talking about me".........I sleep at night.

I have worked 2nd and 3rd shifts and have been dead asleep at 9 AM.

This is kind of silly.

I knew what time the incident happened two weeks ago. That is when I started arguing in the different threads on the issue. Many of them have been locked and gone. I have not changed the way or what I have been arguing. The guy was woken and killed. Same thing I said two weeks ago..........and yeah, I knew it was in the middle of the morning.



Why whould I lie?

So now I am a pathetic liar?

Patchman, I really have no reason to lie about this particular little thing.

Nor do the police, neighbors, judge etc. On the other hand, the deceased, as well as his wife would have a tremendous personal incentive to lie.

What's amazing is how hard you are working to pound the square peg that is the factual information presented into the round hole that is the scenario you have constructed in your mind that want to believe so greatly.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 18:58
I tend to believe he placed his own family members in jeopardy by going into the family business.

I mean, his competitors would certainly have at some point stopped by to have a chat with them all. Jose doesn't like to chat?

You may be right..................It will never be proved.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 19:01
What's amazing is how hard you are working to pound the square peg that is the factual information presented into the round hole that is the scenario you have constructed in your mind that want to believe so greatly.

Just reading between the lines as are those who are so fast to make him into a gun toting thug, bent on killing cops. It could be either way but I doubt he was planning on taking his last breath that morning. He did not even get to say goodbye to his family.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 19:02
Oh I don't know...........in an interview they said that wait 15 seconds and then breach.........yes, I think that is a little quick, and yes, I think it got someone dead because of how fast it all went down.

That's well and good, but again, you have a number of what a reasonable person would consider to be "experts" in the matter telling you that they think more people aren't dead because of how it went down.

Now you are entitled to your opinion just as anyone else. But if a lifetime golf instructor is telling me my swing is wrong and can explain why, and can present a demonstratable history of why golfers swing a certain way, why it is prefferable, and what almost certainly happens when they don't and I in turn, form the opinion based on "common sense" that they are wrong having maybe went mini golfing once I am far less likely to be correct in my opinion.

I could then simply state that the golf experts are just covering for each other, but that wouldn't be accurate either would it?

NMG26
06-04-2011, 19:03
Oh, I have no idea. But I have it in my mind you're lying. And nothing will dissuade me from that position.

Argue all you want to the contrary. My mind is made up.

You're a lier. Now and forever more.


And we digress.

Help me out here folks. Have I not been posting on this for two weeks? How could I not know what time it happened? I read the articles as they come in.

So you never change your mind even when you find yourself to be wrong? Good to know who I am arguing with.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 19:07
You may be right..................It will never be proved.

Well, if there is a god, and if she has a sense of humor, we may yet see some proof.

Like for example, now that the competitors know who's who, Jose's wife, as well as his brother and parents, may still get to have that chat.

Keep that google alert going for his wife's, brother's and parent's names to pop.

groovyash
06-04-2011, 19:08
He did not even get to say goodbye to his family.

Again a telling statement. In dozens of instances I have had with barricaded suspects few ever said "goodbye" to anyone. Beyond that we are not talking about a suicide note, rather a dynamic and unfolding scenario.

Again, your opinion is yours alone and not subject to any requirements, however it flys in the face of experience.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 19:13
And we digress.

Help me out here folks. Have I not been posting on this for two weeks? How could I not know what time it happened? I read the articles as they come in.

So you never change your mind even when you find yourself to be wrong? Good to know who I am arguing with.

Have no idea whether for the past 2 weeks you actually knew when the warrant was executed. All I know is that in this thread, you kept posting "in the middle of the night."

Likewise, I ask if you can't find yourself to be wrong about how his own acts caused his own death?

Patchman
06-04-2011, 19:24
Just reading between the lines as are those who are so fast to make him into a gun toting thug, bent on killing cops. It could be either way but I doubt he was planning on taking his last breath that morning.

Are you saying the SWAT team was planning on killing him that morning?

He was a gun toting thug. All drug dealers and drug-ripoff teams need weapons trained people. He was the muscle.

Regardless of the day or time, his plan was to kill whoever came through his front door.

He was lucky it was only the po-po. If it were the competition, you think his wife and children would be around to bury him?

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 19:25
Suspected thug.

You want to talk about disregard for his family? How about busting down the door, not knowing wether there where kids in the room or not? That one cuts both ways.

The guy worked.
The guy got surprised.
The guy got dead.
You got in your mind that he was a thug.........that has not been proved.

he put that ball in motion with HIS CHOICES

I see no proof he was surprised i would like to see what his bloodwork shows.. my prediction is Cocaine and THC

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 19:28
And we digress.

Help me out here folks. Have I not been posting on this for two weeks? How could I not know what time it happened? I read the articles as they come in.

So you never change your mind even when you find yourself to be wrong? Good to know who I am arguing with.

As I have said if FACTS prove me wrong I will admit it,that is something you have shown you are incapable of.

Mayhem like Me
06-04-2011, 19:31
Just reading between the lines as are those who are so fast to make him into a gun toting thug, bent on killing cops. It could be either way but I doubt he was planning on taking his last breath that morning. He did not even get to say goodbye to his family.

What fantasy world do you live in he was working for the Mexican cartel... he could not think that far ahead.

He was planning on fighting for his thug lifestyle, he lost.

i have news for you i can peek around a corner with my rifle in hand and no one would know I have it....so can a trained marine... he made a choice not a mistake.

Cav
06-04-2011, 19:37
Patchman..............he was sleeping.

I guess the slow-wit didn't know that robberies never happen at 9 A.M.

His occupation was a blue collar miner.............yes I am a blue collar worker. 41,000 a year........pretty close to my base pay. I guess you are right about that........my life experience is influencing my interpretation of the scene.

Do you own a nice house, and have 5 vehicles in your name that are worth about $100,000. Could you buy a Ford Raptor and cover the insurance? I make about $41,000 a year, and my kids are grown ups, I still would have a hard time with that one vehicle, let alone 4 more...

I know from the news and the video that SWAT used a siren, recorded the event, knocked and announced, said the warning in English and Spanish a few times, breached and held, saw a threat and they opened fire on the threat.

I know the wife has said one thing to the news, and another under oath to the Sheriffs Department. I will take what she says under oath over the news or her lawyer.

Patchman
06-04-2011, 19:55
I wonder if the wife knew what was going on? I would love to see her testify against her brother-in-law and the other in-laws before disappearing into the witness protection program.

Kadetklapp
06-04-2011, 20:55
So you never change your mind even when you find yourself to be wrong? Good to know who I am arguing with.

Better take your own advice. The only person wrong here is you. :wavey:

txleapd
06-04-2011, 20:56
He is guilty of what?

The only thing that can be proved that he is guilty of is............he is dead.

That's convenient for the cop hating, "oathkeeping" crowd, isn't it?

"You can't prove he was guilty, because he never got a trial!" :upeyes:

Don't let the fact that there was more than enough PC to run paper on him, he pulled a loaded gun on the cops serving the warrant, and plenty of evidence has been found to link him to a dope dealing conspiracy, get in the way of bias (or simple blind stupidity)....

SheepleNoMore
06-04-2011, 21:23
Here is my post from from 5/22/11, in GNG: What do you expect when you brake down someones front door? Tea and crumpets?

We will never know how it actually went down. Did they knock on the door or just apply battering ram? How many officers were shouting various commands as they busted the door down? Did his wife see and recognize an officer in uniform or just a person with a gun?

So many questions about the situation makes it look bad on the police. I hope they have some good answers.

The information in the search warrant qualifies as "good answers" for me. I have seen those behavior patterns first hand. Police picked up two employees at my work location in a coordinated multi-location series of arrests. My boss had me hire them just a few weeks before for a barely above minimum wage job. They drove late model sports cars. My boss called their mom to warn her, and a police officer answered the phone. :) The two guys, their mom and a bunch of other people got long sentences when all was said and done.

My boss shared that by getting the near minimum wage jobs they were just trying to turn their life around and get out of the drug life. My boss actually came to work without being stoned for about a week before he apparently found a new supplier.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 22:47
he put that ball in motion with HIS CHOICES

I see no proof he was surprised i would like to see what his bloodwork shows.. my prediction is Cocaine and THC

Maybe............us that work in industry in the USA tend not to do drugs because in a "drug free workplace" they tend to do drug tests regular enough to not risk it.

NMG26
06-04-2011, 22:56
Better take your own advice. The only person wrong here is you. :wavey:
What am I wrong about?

EOD3
06-05-2011, 03:29
Maybe it's just me but I can't think of ANY possible way for him/them not to know the boys and girls outside the house were police officers. I don't give a GGD how sleepy or doped he was, a Marine with a rifle is one of the most dangerous things you're likely to meet in broad daylight.

He knew it was the police and he CHOSE to play the match sh**head or he planned to fire on the officers. There's no way for the officers to know which it is and waiting around until one or more of them is shot or killed is just not going to happen.

As for the number of rounds fired, shoot until the threat is neutralized. If he's still holding the rifle, he's still a threat.

knoxvegasdaddy
06-05-2011, 04:00
He is guilty of what?

The only thing that can be proved that he is guilty of is............he is dead.

No, actually quite a few things can be proved. There wont be a trial to find him guilty, but dont confuse that with a lack of proof.

The cops didnt follow this **** *** ******* * * ******* ***** **** * * ***** waste of oxygen FOR 6 MONTHS because they needed a hobby. If you read the warrant (start at line 104, its pretty juicy) you will see that HUNDREDS of man hours and THOUSANDS of dollars have gone into this investigation just to get to the point of writing the warrant.

I think Detective Tirsch proved quite a bit.

DaBigBR
06-05-2011, 04:17
Okay, I'm lost. I don't think that anybody said he was guilty of anything. They did say that a judge obviously found probable cause to issue the warrant, so that's something. Read the warrant. There's ten or twelve pages of PC. That's something.

I guarantee you that the officers executing the warrant wanted it to go smoothly and result in the recovery of evidence to support a criminal prosecution and validate the number of man-hours spent investigating. I guarantee you the last thing they wanted was a shooting that made national news.

Does the fact that the dead guy has not been convicted of anything mean that the officers did not use reasonable and justifiable force? Absolutely not.

knoxvegasdaddy
06-05-2011, 04:34
Occasional insomnia is a *****. I come on here for the first time in months (been busy, long story) and see a post from 4949. :wavey: I heard about that story, poor young Marine and his widow.

Oh, look, its the warrant. The one the family questioned the very existence of.

What a ****** **** *** *** *** that guy really is. The media IMMEDIATELY vilified that entry team and lionized the "Former U.S. Marine Iraqi war veteran"....

**** him and his lying wife. I hope she, and her entire criminal enterprise family, is imprisoned and/or deported.


From an interview right after it happened "I looked out the window and saw men with guns and vests on and thought it was a home invasion."

SERIOUSLY????? So you have no idea that your husband is a major banger, that he's moving some heavy dope weight, as is your father AND your cousin?

You didn't know that when cops drive by your house, your sweet angel of a patriotic husband and your father FOLLOW THE COPS???

You didn't catch on when your husband suddenly stopped driving his truck and started taking your car everywhere? Are you stupid?

Nice try, but you get no check! Its gonna take a year or two to settle everything, but in the end, you get nothing. I did the math: 60 shots/5 officers=12 shots each/3 round burst/4 trigger pulls each. A reasonable response to a known dealer with combat experience and a loaded AR in his hands.

Your husband is a sorry piece of **** disgraced Marine dope dealer. Nothing more.

Did I mention that you get no check?

4949shooter
06-05-2011, 04:44
Agree with DaBigBr.

Also, if I knew the police were outside my house, the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be to grab a battle rifle. Unless of course, I were involved in illicit activities.

Or...if I knew I was involved in illicit activities, and there might be a rival gang coming to my door, yeah, then I would grab a battle rifle when my wife tells me "there are men with guns outside."

In either case, the decedent died because of the lifestyle he chose.

What the heck, if he were just some innocent "joe," would he have a reason to grab a weapon so quick and set up at the end of the hallway in a crouching position? How about looking out the window? How about coming to the door to ask what was going on if her were innocent? How about asking, "Officers, can I help you?" No....instead he grabs a battle rifle and crouches down at the end of the hallway.

The decedent's own actions and lifestyle caused his demise.

4949shooter
06-05-2011, 04:45
Occasional insomnia is a *****. I come on here for the first time in months (been busy, long story) and see a post from 4949. :wavey:

Howdy Vegasdaddy :wavey:

grizz
06-05-2011, 07:40
Allegedly.

And so the picture is painted for us.

Can't try(is that the verb form of trial?) a dead man.

Again..........he is guilty of what?

A messed up family? Yeah. Kill them.

Bare minimum, he was apparently guilty of challenging a SWAT team with a firearm, with predictable results. When confronted with a legal search warrant, one has two choices: comply or go down swinging. He flipped the coin and it came up tails.

Peace Frog
06-05-2011, 08:01
Hard to believe that anyone could read that search warrant and still think he was an angel. To get that much detail required a long, very professional investigation.

x Infinity...

And Beyond...

FiremanMike
06-05-2011, 09:10
I don't think that busting down his door was called for. Does it matter what I think? I'm just a citizen being influenced by the media........and my life experience.

.....and your inability/refusal to read and comprehend the warrant and evidence that was posted.

Look dude, you think it's a bad shoot, we get it. Nothing we say is going to change your mind of that. You seem to draw the conclusion that this can happen to anyone, the cops busting down your door, you think its a home invader, grab your gun, and end up dead. You refuse time and time again to acknowledge the mitigating factors of this scenario, and refuse to see this on any other terms than the opinion which you've already formed.

What is it you're after here anyways? You want us to agree with you? We won't. Most of us have actually served warrants, some of us have even been involved in an OIS. None of us take our job lightly, and none of us will ever stand here and say that in the split second when someone points a gun at you, that it's even physically possible to figure out whether or not "this is just a sleepy guy who's confused, oh hey look guys the safety is on, hes not going to hurt us, quick grab some baloons!" Life is dirty and messy my friend, and when you choose to deal drugs and live a life of crime, it becomes more complicted. When you choose to point a rifle at a team of cops, well the decision is made for you.

PROSOUTH
06-05-2011, 09:17
I guess what gets me is the people that are defending this POS drug dealer because of his "RIGHTS" are the same ones who wants the Swat Team to go into the same house and kill the perp on sight that sold the Dope to their daughter or son and caused his addiction/ death.

Ain't it funny how a mans outlook changes on things when he is involved personally with these thugs?

:yawn:

merlynusn
06-05-2011, 09:28
Obviously with the warrant, they had probable cause to enter the residence. No, the SWAT team did not want to shoot anyone that day. And I don't know about you, but when I hear something in the middle of the night and I go investigate it, I am not sleepy. I am wide awake and I'm alert for anything that says what it is. To say he's probably sleepy just doesn't jive with what the vast majority of people feel when they grab a gun and go investigate something. He deployed Marine tactics by setting up at the end of a hallway. Again, that goes and shows that he was not sleepy and he was functioning fully.

wprebeck
06-05-2011, 11:04
Obviously with the warrant, they had probable cause to enter the residence. No, the SWAT team did not want to shoot anyone that day. And I don't know about you, but when I hear something in the middle of the night and I go investigate it, I am not sleepy. I am wide awake and I'm alert for anything that says what it is. To say he's probably sleepy just doesn't jive with what the vast majority of people feel when they grab a gun and go investigate something. He deployed Marine tactics by setting up at the end of a hallway. Again, that goes and shows that he was not sleepy and he was functioning fully.

You mean to say that a person who was trained by the USMC in infantry tactics, and has applied those tactics in a combat situation wouldnt just stagger to the door, all redeyed and groggy?

Surely you dont mean to imply that a combat veteran would be trained in situational awareness, and would positively identify his target prior to engaging it?

That's just ludicrous. He was an every day Joe Blow with no training or weapons that would have presented anytype of threat requiring a SWAT team to execute the warrant.

No, wait. He was a decorated hero who saw action as a United States Marine, and should not be considered as a suspect in any crime, no matter what evidence to the contrary existed.


What, what?


I get so confused about this....I need someone like Alex Jones to tell me what to think. Be right bback.

Snowman92D
06-05-2011, 13:32
Bare minimum, he was apparently guilty of challenging a SWAT team with a firearm, with predictable results. When confronted with a legal search warrant, one has two choices: comply or go down swinging.

Yep..."due process of law" is something that you have to submit yourself to, if you wanna avail yourself of it. Kinda hard to force it on armed resisters.

Not sure why the hullabaloo of the deceased being a Marine. Street gangs have been sending their members to enlist in the military for a long time, much as the founders of MS-13 did. Heck, the drug gangs are infiltrating the U.S. Border Patrol as well as other American LE agencies. The murderous "Texas Tower" sniper back in 1966 was a former Marine. So was Lee Harvey Oswald. How far back does anyone need to go to show that former U.S. servicemen are capable of going bad, just like everyone else?

TBO
06-05-2011, 13:42
Yep..."due process of law" is something that you have to submit yourself to, if you wanna avail yourself of it. Kinda hard to force it on armed resisters.

Not sure why the hullabaloo of the deceased being a Marine. Street gangs have been sending their members to enlist in the military for a long time, much as the founders of MS-13 did. Heck, the drug gangs are infiltrating the U.S. Border Patrol as well as other American LE agencies. The murderous "Texas Tower" sniper back in 1966 was a former Marine. So was Lee Harvey Oswald. How far back does anyone need to go to show that former U.S. servicemen are capable of going bad, just like everyone else?
Ceres CA

TBO
06-05-2011, 13:44
Gangs in the Military

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpMg393Imk4&feature=related

AZLawDawg
06-05-2011, 14:45
Ceres CA

don't bring up Ceres, the GNG crowd will probably tell you that kid was a hard working hero too, incapable of wrongdoing.

Hack
06-05-2011, 18:14
Should they have called on the phone and served the warrant that way? Knocked and then ran giggling to their flower-painted VW Bus? Seriously?

Only in Berkeley, CA dude. :tbo:

Hack
06-05-2011, 18:15
Yep..."due process of law" is something that you have to submit yourself to, if you wanna avail yourself of it. Kinda hard to force it on armed resisters.

Not sure why the hullabaloo of the deceased being a Marine. Street gangs have been sending their members to enlist in the military for a long time, much as the founders of MS-13 did. Heck, the drug gangs are infiltrating the U.S. Border Patrol as well as other American LE agencies. The murderous "Texas Tower" sniper back in 1966 was a former Marine. So was Lee Harvey Oswald. How far back does anyone need to go to show that former U.S. servicemen are capable of going bad, just like everyone else?

:agree: We have had them to try and infiltrate the agency, constantly.

Hack
06-05-2011, 18:17
Gangs in the Military

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpMg393Imk4&feature=related

:goodpost:

Hack
06-05-2011, 18:18
Okay, I'm lost. I don't think that anybody said he was guilty of anything. They did say that a judge obviously found probable cause to issue the warrant, so that's something. Read the warrant. There's ten or twelve pages of PC. That's something.

I guarantee you that the officers executing the warrant wanted it to go smoothly and result in the recovery of evidence to support a criminal prosecution and validate the number of man-hours spent investigating. I guarantee you the last thing they wanted was a shooting that made national news.

Does the fact that the dead guy has not been convicted of anything mean that the officers did not use reasonable and justifiable force? Absolutely not.

:goodpost:

Straight Pipe
06-06-2011, 16:24
The portion that includes the informant was redacted. Sheriff Dupnik says, "The life of this person is going to be definitely in jeopardy."

From the narco-terrorist or oath-keepers?

Straight Pipe
06-06-2011, 16:28
Why would ANYONE let something like oh,I don't know, the FACTS get in the way.....:dunno:

Why allow the facts to get in the way when some cop hating POS group can make up their own facts?

Straight Pipe
06-06-2011, 16:31
I'll give you that.

Still the just waking up.........the confusion............the gun in hand......wrong place at the wrong time.................

We will never know his intent with the gun.

I have not seen any video of him actually pointing the gun?

Even if he was "pointing" the gun..........there was enough "going on" to not know what was going on. I'm slow. I doubt he was slower then me, but, maybe.

Yeah, 9:00 AM is dambed early for a drug dealer.

Sam Spade
06-06-2011, 16:57
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14847835/fatal-swat-raid-just-released-autopsy-details-guerenas-wounds?redirected=true

Autopy's done.

Mayhem like Me
06-06-2011, 17:00
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14847835/fatal-swat-raid-just-released-autopsy-details-guerenas-wounds?redirected=true

Autopy's done.

My guess he would have drugs in his system was wrong , I wonder what they tested for?

Dragoon44
06-06-2011, 17:50
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14847835/fatal-swat-raid-just-released-autopsy-details-guerenas-wounds?redirected=true

Autopy's done.

Nine of the wounds to the arms, hands etc, are consistent with someone shot while their arms are raised pointing a weapon

Mayhem like Me
06-06-2011, 17:54
Nine of the wounds to the arms, hands etc, are consistent with someone shot while their arms are raised pointing a weapon

bet the weapon has frag and blood DNA hair on it etc...

Dragoon44
06-06-2011, 20:04
bet the weapon has frag and blood DNA hair on it etc...

I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't have a bullet hole or two in it. at least in the plastic handguard or pistol grip.

NMG26
06-06-2011, 21:17
My guess he would have drugs in his system was wrong , I wonder what they tested for?

noted

GlockerMike
06-07-2011, 00:01
Nine of the wounds to the arms, hands etc, are consistent with someone shot while their arms are raised pointing a weapon
Or maybe a natural instinct of raising his arms to shield himself from a hail of bullets?

Patchman
06-07-2011, 04:26
Or maybe a natural instinct of raising his arms to shield himself from a hail of bullets?

Naw. He was highly trained Marine. Or at least, I hope the M.C. don't train their Marines to react like that!

ricklee4570
06-07-2011, 04:43
This is tragedy on all levels.

txleapd
06-07-2011, 05:16
Or maybe a natural instinct of raising his arms to shield himself from a hail of bullets?

:upeyes:

Peace Frog
06-07-2011, 05:21
Man am I slow...I just noticed the news channel "KGUN...Man Arizona loves their guns.:whistling:

RussP
06-07-2011, 05:24
Or maybe a natural instinct of raising his arms to shield himself from a hail of bullets?Would you like to see the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories?

Sam Spade
06-07-2011, 06:51
Would you like to see the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories?

I would, along with photos of the rifle. That would add something.

You got it? How'd I miss it?

mpow66m
06-07-2011, 07:12
Those eight redacted lines (378-385) are proof positive the SWAT good 'ole boys conspired to kill him on the spot.
\


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

ricklee4570
06-07-2011, 07:14
I couldn't ascertain from the news article whether the wounds were from pointing a rifle or holding hands up to surrender.

Dragoon44
06-07-2011, 07:37
Or maybe a natural instinct of raising his arms to shield himself from a hail of bullets?

And here is a good example of the vast gulf between what cops know and Non LEO's Think.

Cops views are formed by training and experience. On having investigated numerous shootings and how they go down.

Like the fact that throwing up your hands is a CLOSE RANGE defensive instinct.Being down an interior hallway with cops OUTSIDE the residence is not close range. And it is highly unlikely he threw up his hands in a protective instinct in this scenario.

txleapd
06-07-2011, 07:40
I couldn't ascertain from the news article whether the wounds were from pointing a rifle or holding hands up to surrender.

:upeyes: :upeyes: :upeyes:

Dragoon44
06-07-2011, 07:47
I couldn't ascertain from the news article whether the wounds were from pointing a rifle or holding hands up to surrender.

Well lets see if we can figger this one out hoss,

Cops are trained to shoot center mass, under the stress of a deadly force encounter they don't always hit center mass But.......

People typically don't bring their hands and arms in front of them when they raise their hands to surrender. you might have noticed your hands are attached to your arms and your arms are to the sides of your body. Thus the natural motion of raising ones hands puts the hands and arms to the outside of the body well away from the torso. ( which would be where the cops would be aiming). for your "theory" to work the Swat team would have been targeting his hands and arms instead of his center torso.

I am pretty sure that was a SWAT team and not the lone ranger and tonto that did the shooting.

Here is another bit knowledge, if you take shooters and have them practice shooting under simulated stress on realistic looking targets of a suspect pointing a gun guess where their shots invariably tend to cluster?

Hint: starts with a G and ends with an N

ricklee4570
06-07-2011, 07:57
In a typical police or SWAT team shooting, I wonder what the percentage is of rounds fired verses rounds hitting center of mass?

From watching the video, I didn't come away with the feeling that these were highly trained SWAT team members. Then again, I am only basing that on seeing other videos where I was highly impressed with the SWAT teams professional demeanor in other areas in the country.

ray9898
06-07-2011, 10:36
In a typical police or SWAT team shooting, I wonder what the percentage is of rounds fired verses rounds hitting center of mass?

From watching the video, I didn't come away with the feeling that these were highly trained SWAT team members. Then again, I am only basing that on seeing other videos where I was highly impressed with the SWAT teams professional demeanor in other areas in the country.

Less than what it is at the range. Thinking rounds are coming downrange and trying to extract a member you believed was hit adds a bit to the scenario.

EOD3
06-07-2011, 13:32
My guess he would have drugs in his system was wrong , I wonder what they tested for?

Lead poisoning? :rofl:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :embarassed:

Patchman
06-07-2011, 20:15
In a typical police or SWAT team shooting, I wonder what the percentage is of rounds fired verses rounds hitting center of mass?

From watching the video, I didn't come away with the feeling that these were highly trained SWAT team members. Then again, I am only basing that on seeing other videos where I was highly impressed with the SWAT teams professional demeanor in other areas in the country.

New SWAT protocol is to shoot only at their hands, which is where the danger (weapon) is at. So if the person holds their hands way high above their heads, almost none to very few rounds will go into the chest. If the person is waving their arms/hands in front of their chest, more rounds will go into the chest.

michael e
06-07-2011, 21:34
So did they get anyone else thats listed in this warrent. Seems like most of the case was against the guys brother. Seems whole family was caught up in it

CAcop
06-07-2011, 22:23
I couldn't ascertain from the news article whether the wounds were from pointing a rifle or holding hands up to surrender.

I guess it is a good thing that the coroner actually examines the body versus reading the news articles.

4949shooter
06-08-2011, 01:43
So did they get anyone else thats listed in this warrent. Seems like most of the case was against the guys brother. Seems whole family was caught up in it


it was a family affair for sure.

As far as I know, no one was arrested.

RussP
06-08-2011, 06:03
Would you like to see the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories?I would, along with photos of the rifle. That would add something.

You got it? How'd I miss it?No, and you didn't. I asked rhetorically in anticipation of:I couldn't ascertain from the news article whether the wounds were from pointing a rifle or holding hands up to surrender.Guess I could, and perhaps should have asked, "Do you think the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories and notes on wound ballistics would be more accurate and informative than a simple list of shot placement in a news report?", implying/suggesting that the collection of facts includes much more than was listed.

The article does mention bullets fragmenting after entering. Were these pre-fragmented bullets? Did they hollowpoints that fragmented on contact with bone? Were there bones broken by the bullets?

Questions, questions, why do we, well some of us, always have questions even after reading the "truth according to the media"?

:cool:

Patchman
06-08-2011, 09:30
Questions, questions, why do we, well some of us, always have questions even after reading the "truth according to the media"?


Reading requires the other necessary skill of comprehension. And then one has to put all that information together.

I prefer to learn "the truth" from Youtube, videos, movies, TV and other visual sources.

ricklee4570
06-08-2011, 10:31
No, and you didn't. I asked rhetorically in anticipation of:Guess I could, and perhaps should have asked, "Do you think the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories and notes on wound ballistics would be more accurate and informative than a simple list of shot placement in a news report?", implying/suggesting that the collection of facts includes much more than was listed.

The article does mention bullets fragmenting after entering. Were these pre-fragmented bullets? Did they hollowpoints that fragmented on contact with bone? Were there bones broken by the bullets?

Questions, questions, why do we, well some of us, always have questions even after reading the "truth according to the media"?

:cool:

With that logic, why are we discussing anything on this forum then?

I do because it is entertaining conversing with you guys.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 07:29
The County Attorney found the shooting to be justified, clearing the officers yesterday (6/13). No surprise there, but a tidbit glossed over in the media releases: "the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".

Union attorney isn't surprised, family attorney isn't returning calls.

Mayhem like Me
06-14-2011, 07:59
Not suprising, I was involved in a shooting where one of my rounds went into the shotgun end cap of the magazine tube, another took off his trigger finger.

RussP
06-14-2011, 08:54
No, and you didn't. I asked rhetorically in anticipation of:Guess I could, and perhaps should have asked, "Do you think the forensic diagram of bullet trajectories and notes on wound ballistics would be more accurate and informative than a simple list of shot placement in a news report?", implying/suggesting that the collection of facts includes much more than was listed.

The article does mention bullets fragmenting after entering. Were these pre-fragmented bullets? Did they hollowpoints that fragmented on contact with bone? Were there bones broken by the bullets?

Questions, questions, why do we, well some of us, always have questions even after reading the "truth according to the media"?

:cool:

With that logic, why are we discussing anything on this forum then? ...Why?

This...The County Attorney found the shooting to be justified, clearing the officers yesterday (6/13). No surprise there, but a tidbit glossed over in the media releases: "the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".

Union attorney isn't surprised, family attorney isn't returning calls.:cool:

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 10:56
The County Attorney found the shooting to be justified, clearing the officers yesterday (6/13). No surprise there, but a tidbit glossed over in the media releases: "the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".

Exactly what I was expecting given the description of the wounds he sustained.

Patchman
06-14-2011, 11:03
OK, maybe the guy was pointing his AR at the cops to show how the safety was still engaged... :whistling:

Seriously, if the AR was already pointed in their direction, then they held their fire until the very last possible moment.

ray9898
06-14-2011, 13:23
Seriously, if the AR was already pointed in their direction, then they held their fire until the very last possible moment.

Probably too long. They did say the residence had lots of room darkening material so even though it was daylight outside the inside presented a low light situation.

redneck1861
06-14-2011, 13:25
The County Attorney found the shooting to be justified, clearing the officers yesterday (6/13). No surprise there, but a tidbit glossed over in the media releases: "the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".

Union attorney isn't surprised, family attorney isn't returning calls.


Outstanding. I just wonder what the GNG people are going to say about this.

Since this was ruled as justified, does it protect the officers from civil suit?

CAcop
06-14-2011, 14:09
Outstanding. I just wonder what the GNG people are going to say about this.

Since this was ruled as justified, does it protect the officers from civil suit?

Probably. Anyone can sue anyone in this country. The trick is winning.

I think they and the agency are on pretty solid ground. Also it helps the wife hired a criminal attorney rather than a civil attorney the last I heard. She probably is not going to be suing anytime soon. She is more likely to be sitting in court with the other three people her husband was likely involved with.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 14:15
Outstanding. I just wonder what the GNG people are going to say about this.

Since this was ruled as justified, does it protect the officers from civil suit?

A little. AZ passed a law prohibiting civil judgements for justified conduct. That law was later tossed because the AZ State Constitution says that only juries can make determinations like that.

So the legislature passed a new law---if you're sued and the plantiff loses because your conduct was justified, the plantiff pays the defendant's lost wages, time and attorney fees. *That* cuts down on a lot of the "let's sue and make him settle" behavior.

No effect on suing the agency, though.

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 15:50
Outstanding. I just wonder what the GNG people are going to say about this.

Won't change their opinion one bit. Once their totally imaginary justifications for the guys actions are proven wrong they will still oppose it as wrong because the foundation of their views is that SWAT teams and forced entries are wrong, PERIOD.

redneck1861
06-14-2011, 15:55
Won't change their opinion one bit. Once their totally imaginary justifications for the guys actions are proven wrong they will still oppose it as wrong because the foundation of their views is that SWAT teams and forced entries are wrong, PERIOD.


I read in a thread in GnG, about the 2 contractors the killed 2 afgan. civilians. They are saying how the 2 americans are heros for clearly murdering 2 people. I just dont understand people sometimes

DaBigBR
06-14-2011, 16:43
I read in a thread in GnG, about the 2 contractors the killed 2 afgan. civilians. They are saying how the 2 americans are heros for clearly murdering 2 people. I just dont understand people sometimes

If you're talking about Justin Cannon, check your facts. Justin was a respected member of the board here and from all indications, got boned. He posted some about it right after it happened as I don't think that he had ANY idea he would end up charged, let alone convicted.

4949shooter
06-14-2011, 17:09
The County Attorney found the shooting to be justified, clearing the officers yesterday (6/13). No surprise there, but a tidbit glossed over in the media releases: "the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".

Union attorney isn't surprised, family attorney isn't returning calls.

Sam, do you have a link to the information? I would like to show this to some of my friends on other forums.

Dragoon is right though. It won't change a thing.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 17:22
Sam, do you have a link to the information? I would like to show this to some of my friends on other forums.

Dragoon is right though. It won't change a thing.

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14901255/pima-county-attorney-sides-with-swat?redirected=true

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3f13aacb-4bba-5d0c-a4bc-623bf465e9a5.html

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 17:44
if I am not mistaken the pic of Guerena in the AZ news is a mug shot isn't it? and that is a jail inmate orange jumpsuit he is wearing.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 18:06
if I am not mistaken the pic of Guerena in the AZ news is a mug shot isn't it? and that is a jail inmate orange jumpsuit he is wearing.

That's his booking photo from his Pinal County arrest.

Snowman92D
06-14-2011, 18:17
Our southern border is fast becoming a cesspool of really horrific crime spilling over from the Mexican side, and the only answer for it is the Bad Guys being hunted down, jailed, and shot into submission if they violently resist.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/topstory/7607122.html

My compliments to the officers involved in this investigation. I hope they continue to learn and sharpen their tradecraft. I hope all of our officers on the southern border, as well as elsewhere in this country, stay in shape, stay alert and get some range practice in every week. I think things will be getting interesting over the next 18 months. :patriot:

4949shooter
06-14-2011, 18:58
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14901255/pima-county-attorney-sides-with-swat?redirected=true

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3f13aacb-4bba-5d0c-a4bc-623bf465e9a5.html

Thank you Brother.

Panzergrenadier1979
06-14-2011, 19:00
"the rifle was damaged by fire in such a way that it must have been pointed at officers".


Any self-respecting member of the the "Jack Booted Thug's are upon us" crowd or the Open Carry crowd would surely NEVER allow ANYONE to bear a weapon at them let alone FREAKING POINT ONE at them. They just simply cannot/will not bring themselves to look at the situation from the viewpoint of the officer at the scene.

Dear cop haters,

I will carefully respect your rights as an American citizen. With that in mind, my right to go home to my wife and children means more to me then your perception of your constitutional rights at the time of your arrest. If you disagree with your arrest, you will see me in court.

Don't point a gun at a cop. Ever.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 19:09
Dear cop haters,

I will carefully respect your rights as an American citizen. With that in mind, my right to go home to my wife and children means more to me then your perception of your constitutional rights at the time of your arrest. If you disagree with your arrest, you will see me in court.

Don't point a gun at a cop. Ever.

Duh.

And when you door gets knocked down and you don't know it is the police and they light you up...........................zip


....that is the other side of the story for us "none cop hating" citizens.

It is my opinion that the thug in question would have liked to breathe another day, and did not expect his door to be busted in.

No reply necessary........I've been beat up on this already.

Have a good one!

Panzergrenadier1979
06-14-2011, 19:44
Duh.

And when you door gets knocked down and you don't know it is the police and they light you up...........................zip


....that is the other side of the story for us "none cop hating" citizens.

It is my opinion that the thug in question would have liked to breathe another day, and did not expect his door to be busted in.

No reply necessary........I've been beat up on this already.

Have a good one!

Generally, someone who is actively engaged in felonious activities and who runs counter-surveillance operations against the police whom he knows is watching his residence tends to not be surprised when they come to the house with a warrant.

He didn't know it was the police...... oh please.

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 19:48
And when you door gets knocked down and you don't know it is the police and they light you up...........................zip

yeah, the famous fall back for the "No swat" crowd.

I ran a high risk warrant service team for over nine years not once int hat time did the people we served warrants on not know we were the po po.

In this case the Team went out of it's way to make sure they knew it was the police. The use of the siren, (Which the wife TWICE stated she knew was a siren and that she knew it was SWAT outside of her house.) the time between the knock and announce in both English AND Spanish.

When you live the life that this guy apparently did, the police coming to your house is always an expectation.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 19:51
Generally, someone who is actively engaged in felonious activities and who runs counter-surveillance operations against the police whom he knows is watching his residence tends to not be surprised when they come to the house with a warrant.

He didn't know it was the police...... oh please.

Well maybe you are right.........maybe he half thought it could be the police........

It is not illegal to answer the door with a gun in your hand. He never had the chance to look and see for sure it was the police.

Hit me again....I know.......I'm naive.

SKSman57
06-14-2011, 19:55
yeah, the famous fall back for the "No swat" crowd.

I ran a high risk warrant service team for over nine years not once int hat time did the people we served warrants on not know we were the po po.

In this case the Team went out of it's way to make sure they knew it was the police. The use of the siren, (Which the wife TWICE stated she knew was a siren and that she knew it was SWAT outside of her house.) the time between the knock and announce in both English AND Spanish.

When you live the life that this guy apparently did, the police coming to your house is always an expectation.

Hey, can you link me to the stuff where the wife changed her story. I want to light some people up with that info at another forum.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 20:04
yeah, the famous fall back for the "No swat" crowd.

I ran a high risk warrant service team for over nine years not once int hat time did the people we served warrants on not know we were the po po.

In this case the Team went out of it's way to make sure they knew it was the police. The use of the siren, (Which the wife TWICE stated she knew was a siren and that she knew it was SWAT outside of her house.) the time between the knock and announce in both English AND Spanish.

When you live the life that this guy apparently did, the police coming to your house is always an expectation.

"No swat" crowd?

I think I am starting to see what you are saying.

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 20:08
Hey, can you link me to the stuff where the wife changed her story. I want to light some people up with that info at another forum.

In the release of the 911 call when asked who was outside her house she said it was SWAT. in an interview she stated she heard the siren, in fact I believe she state she was already in the closet when she heard the siren. I think Sam was the one brought it up, if so he may remember the link.

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 20:10
"No swat" crowd?

I think I am starting to see what you are saying.

After reading your post in PI on this I would put you in the, "No amount of evidence or facts will make me think this was a good shooting, " crowd.

You cling to your half baked theories that are little more than the product of television scripts and wishful thinking.

Mayhem like Me
06-14-2011, 20:17
Well maybe you are right.........maybe he half thought it could be the police........

It is not illegal to answer the door with a gun in your hand. He never had the chance to look and see for sure it was the police.

Hit me again....I know.......I'm naive.


As I have stated before and will say again a trained Marine could have held rifle ready and been out of sight looking around the corner of a door or hall and been able to ID what his targets were long before he had to point a rifle at them....

We do this for a living and know quite a bit more on the subject than you do/

Patchman
06-14-2011, 20:19
Duh.

And when you door gets knocked down and you don't know it is the police and they light you up...........................zip


....that is the other side of the story for us "none cop hating" citizens.

It is my opinion that the thug in question would have liked to breathe another day, and did not expect his door to be busted in.

No reply necessary........I've been beat up on this already.

Have a good one!

Every good citizen who robs drugs dealers expect their door to be kicked in. In this home invasion team, he was the hired muscle. He reacted like the stereotype hired muscle.

The other brothers realized it was the po po at their doors and, with a sigh of relief that it was only the po po, gave up without a fight. They were the team's brains. They reacted as such.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 20:22
After reading your post in PI on this I would put you in the, "No amount of evidence or facts will make me think this was a good shooting, " crowd.

You cling to your half baked theories that are little more than the product of television scripts and wishful thinking.


On the contrary. The shoot was fine.
Any officer would have taken the shot in that situation.

The getting there is what I have problem with. You are correct, I probably will not change my mind.

As far as the half baked stuff goes.......you guys are rude to us folks who just don't get it. It is uncalled for. Some guy called me a pathetic liar last go around. I'm not doing that to you. Really we are just disagreeing on the one issue here.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 20:28
As I have stated before and will say again a trained Marine could have held rifle ready and been out of sight looking around the corner of a door or hall and been able to ID what his targets were long before he had to point a rifle at them....

We do this for a living and know quite a bit more on the subject than you do/

Noted and true.

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 20:32
On the contrary.

As far as the half baked stuff goes.......you guys are rude to us folks who just don't get it. It is uncalled for. Some guy called me a pathetic liar last go around. I'm not doing that to you. Really we are just disagreeing on the one issue here.

What kind of reception do you expect after those with training and actual real world experience in doing explain to you time and time again what is wrong with your theories? That things do not happen the way you imagine them to?

NMG26
06-14-2011, 20:33
What kind of reception do you expect after those with training and actual real world experience in doing explain to you time and time again what is wrong with your theories? That things do not happen the way you imagine them to?

You are so right.

Live and learn I guess.

That is the fun of it. I will learn.

SKSman57
06-14-2011, 20:34
In the release of the 911 call when asked who was outside her house she said it was SWAT. in an interview she stated she heard the siren, in fact I believe she state she was already in the closet when she heard the siren. I think Sam was the one brought it up, if so he may remember the link.

Thanks! I found it. There is a transcript of her interview with investigators. She admits that she knew it was SWAT and that she heard the siren. Her story to them is completely different from what she told the media.

Patchman
06-14-2011, 20:35
OK, I have found that among the anti-LE crowd, there are some people that just don't get it. Then there are those who get it but are disingenuous and refuses to acknowledge/accept it. Then there are the hardcore haters and pathetic liars.

NMG26
06-14-2011, 20:37
OK, there are some people that just don't get it. Then there are others who get it but are disingenuous and refuses to acknowledge/accept it. Then there are the pathetic liars.

Point of Views can vary greatly. How one see themselves on a particular issue is one view. How others see them can be totally different.

LOL

Thankyou

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 20:38
In the release of the 911 call when asked who was outside her house she said it was SWAT. in an interview she stated she heard the siren, in fact I believe she state she was already in the closet when she heard the siren. I think Sam was the one brought it up, if so he may remember the link.

Wife's interview, part 2, page 51...the link' in some thread somewhere, it's through the Arizona Daily Star and a PDF file. If you can't find it, come back up on the thread and ask.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 20:42
Thanks! I found it. There is a transcript of her interview with investigators. She admits that she knew it was SWAT and that she heard the siren. Her story to them is completely different from what she told the media.

Did I get the page number right? I'll be truly impressed if I remembered it...:cool:

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 21:11
Thanks! I found it. There is a transcript of her interview with investigators. She admits that she knew it was SWAT and that she heard the siren. Her story to them is completely different from what she told the media.

Her "story" changed after she hired the criminal defense attorney, what a surprise huh?

:rofl:

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 21:14
Did I get the page number right? I'll be truly impressed if I remembered it...:cool:

Come to think of it I saved those PDF files, if it is on page 51 I will use my PDF editor to change the page number just so you won't be right.

:tongueout::rofl::rofl:

redneck1861
06-14-2011, 21:16
On the contrary. The shoot was fine.
Any officer would have taken the shot in that situation.

The getting there is what I have problem with. You are correct, I probably will not change my mind.

As far as the half baked stuff goes.......you guys are rude to us folks who just don't get it. It is uncalled for. Some guy called me a pathetic liar last go around. I'm not doing that to you. Really we are just disagreeing on the one issue here.


The SWAT team did not make decision to serve the warrant. A Judge signed the warrant, SWAT was only doing what the were told.

If you still dont get it, you are more than welcome to write the state senator

NMG26
06-14-2011, 21:20
The SWAT team did not make decision to serve the warrant. A Judge signed the warrant, SWAT was only doing what the were told.



Exactally.

That is what I said.

I know those guys follow SOP.

I just don't like some of the SOP's.

I am not qualified to have an opinion so I will leave it at that. I'm off the clock now........peace.

Sam Spade
06-14-2011, 21:33
Come to think of it I saved those PDF files, if it is on page 51 I will use my PDF editor to change the page number just so you won't be right.

:tongueout::rofl:

Part 2, Page 51, Lines 44-46. Damn, I'm scary good.

:rock::dancing::rock:

GPalmer
06-14-2011, 21:37
Part 2, Page 51, Lines 44-46. Damn, I'm scary good.

:rock::dancing::rock:

and humble... :whistling:

SKSman57
06-14-2011, 21:54
Did I get the page number right? I'll be truly impressed if I remembered it...:cool:

Yep! :cool:

rdrkt
06-14-2011, 22:41
She admits that she knew it was SWAT and that she heard the siren.I see where she said she heard a siren but I dont see where she knew it was SWAT. I looked through a few pages but its a tough read. What page number was it on?

Here is the link for everyone else
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_0955c118-8826-11e0-a691-001cc4c002e0.html

Dragoon44
06-14-2011, 22:53
I see where she said she heard a siren but I dont see where she knew it was SWAT. I looked through a few pages but its a tough read. What page number was it on?

Here is the link for everyone else
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_0955c118-8826-11e0-a691-001cc4c002e0.html

It was the recorded 911 call when she was asked who was outside her house she said SWAT.

ICARRY2
06-15-2011, 08:59
This is an article in today's paper.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/06/15/20110615guerena0615.html

It says that an officer drove past the suspect's home and that a car from the house followed the officer. Then a day or two later an employee at AZ motor vehicle division ran a license plate check on the officer's car.

My question is, how common is it for suspects to have family/friends who work at AZ MVD to run illegal checks on license plates and what is the punishment for those employees?

Mayhem like Me
06-15-2011, 09:11
Pretty common in high end drug trafficing gangs....

Sam Spade
06-15-2011, 09:20
and humble... :whistling:

Humble and lovable. Need a shine, Mister? :rofl:

Morris
06-15-2011, 11:46
If nothing else, it reminds us to keep checking our sixes when we go home or are out in public and we get recognized off duty.

ray9898
06-15-2011, 12:39
My question is, how common is it for suspects to have family/friends who work at AZ MVD to run illegal checks on license plates and what is the punishment for those employees?

Not uncommon at all. It is normally not 'friends/family', it is a dirty employee who is being paid for intel needed by the criminal organization.

Patchman
06-15-2011, 12:50
This is an article in today's paper.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/06/15/20110615guerena0615.html

It says that an officer drove past the suspect's home and that a car from the house followed the officer. Then a day or two later an employee at AZ motor vehicle division ran a license plate check on the officer's car.


I am shocked, shocked, shocked I tell you, to think some good citizen is running active countersurveillence on cars driving by his house.

And that same good citizen would so quickly learn how to seek out a dirty DMV employee who will run a license plate for him.

And depending on what the DMV information was, the good citizen and his brothers must have realized someone would be paying them a visit, probably soon. Only question remaining is, did they think it was the po po, or their business rivals?

ray9898
06-15-2011, 13:08
And depending on what the DMV information was, the good citizen and his brothers must have realized someone would be paying them a visit, probably soon. Only question remaining is, did they think it was the po po, or their business rivals?

Also, would such an observant person then remove whatever items he could from his home to hide them from those who may visit?

Patchman
06-15-2011, 13:50
Certainly items that are clearly illegal, like packages of drugs. Or items that would be hard to explain, like bags of cash.

So what exactly did the po po find at the homes?

ray9898
06-15-2011, 14:17
Certainly items that are clearly illegal, like packages of drugs. Or items that would be hard to explain, like bags of cash.

So what exactly did the po po find at the homes?




From his father-in-laws residences....

Officers recovered at least one stolen vehicle, marijuana, drug ledgers, about $100,000 in cash and numerous weapons from the two homes owned by Celaya, documents released Thursday show.



Weapons, body armor, and LE clothing was recovered from the deceased residence. The have also found a storage unit rented by his mother.

Inside the locker, officers found a large number of financial documents and ledgers that "make it clear to us that this is drug money and money owed to a number of individuals,". Officers also found high-end military gear and advanced weather protective clothing inside the storage locker, Kastigar said.

WarCry
06-15-2011, 14:30
Certainly items that are clearly illegal, like packages of drugs. Or items that would be hard to explain, like bags of cash.

So what exactly did the po po find at the homes?

From what I understand, a man waiting to greet them with an AR-15...

Patchman
06-15-2011, 14:57
duplicate

Patchman
06-15-2011, 15:08
From his father-in-laws residences....

Weapons, body armor, and LE clothing was recovered from the deceased residence. The have also found a storage unit rented by his mother.

Are the weapons, body armor and pieces of LE clothing recovered from the decident's residence illegal to own in AZ? (I don't know). But no drugs or bundles of cash found? Maybe the decedent believed only his house was compromised.

Or the DMV info led them to believe it was the competition who was planning to visit. So I can see an AR (and available backup guns) waiting to greet the competition's visit.

Yup. The pieces are fitting together.

Patchman
06-15-2011, 15:16
Officers also found high-end military gear and advanced weather protective clothing inside the storage locker, Kastigar said.

OK, I'm wondering if the po po requested the military to run the serial numbers (if available) on the military gear to determine if they were stolen...?

Sam Spade
06-15-2011, 15:56
OK, I'm wondering if the po po requested the military to run the serial numbers (if available) on the military gear to determine if they were stolen...?

The uneducated dweeb in the PIO should never have opened his mouth about this particular gear. Your understanding of the case will be better if you drive it from memory.

ray9898
06-15-2011, 16:06
Are the weapons, body armor and pieces of LE clothing recovered from the decident's residence illegal to own in AZ? (I don't know).
Legal to own as far as I know. However it would be prime physical evidence to support the allegation that the the decedent was involved with a home invasion crew who pose as LE and are suspected in several robberies and two murders.


But no drugs or bundles of cash found? Maybe the decedent believed only his house was compromised.

My thoughts exactly.

Patchman
06-15-2011, 16:32
The uneducated dweeb in the PIO should never have opened his mouth about this particular gear. Your understanding of the case will be better if you drive it from memory.

Assuming the gear was stolen, I was wondering it the decedent could be linked to the theft... or if this gear was being stored while awaiting transfer to one of Mexico's drug cartels.

And if the gear.... what gear am I talking about? :supergrin:

michael e
06-20-2011, 20:12
Are the weapons, body armor and pieces of LE clothing recovered from the decident's residence illegal to own in AZ? (I don't know). But no drugs or bundles of cash found? Maybe the decedent believed only his house was compromised.

Or the DMV info led them to believe it was the competition who was planning to visit. So I can see an AR (and available backup guns) waiting to greet the competition's visit.

Yup. The pieces are fitting together.
Been awhile since I read all of this, but does seem like they all had criminal records so that would make the weapons illegal. At least way texas laws read.

GPalmer
06-20-2011, 20:27
Humble and lovable. Need a shine, Mister? :rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Kadetklapp
11-28-2011, 08:15
More crap regurgitated by "The Blaze."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/family-of-former-marine-gunned-down-by-swat-team-still-searches-for-answers-and-justice/

Patchman
11-28-2011, 13:04
Yeah, I read this earlier today and despite what the article said, I had one question.

That family was alleged to be involved with drug rip-offs. So after LE put the spotlight on the brothers and father, did drug-rip offs in the area (involving BGs fitting their descriptions and MO) stop?

Gunnut 45/454
11-28-2011, 14:08
Well I'll be the first non LEO to reflect on my comments made over in Carry issue on this case. As reported originally it was looking like an over step on the SWAT team. As we all know sometimes we don't get the full picture. I had been following this and it had fell off the radar over in Carry Issues. When I saw this post I had to read it and get the rest of the story so to say! I there fore retract any comments that I may have made that seem to be Anti-LEO on this case. Please except my appology if I have offended any of you. Sure sounds like this young man wasn't as lilly white as portraited in the first articles! Thanks for the info!:whistling:

Patchman
11-28-2011, 14:53
Is the wife still denying her husband's involvement like her life is depending on it? Oh, snap,... wait... it may very well be.

I still look forward to the day I read that "the competition" stopped by for a visit to the wife, the brother and the father.

Of course, there'll be those who'll blame LE for siccing "the competition" on this innocent family. Yeah, like "the competition" can't figure out for themselves who's who in the game.

Dragoon44
11-28-2011, 15:29
Oh look an "ex cop" "expert". he did good when he stuck with his area of expertise saying when someone comes around a corner with a gun and lifts it their toast. But then he stepped outside of the area of his expertise and tried to pass judgment on the probable cause saying he isn't sure they had any.

Someone should send him a note and tell him not to fret someone who is paid to make that decision already did ( the judge who signed off on the warrant).

4949shooter
11-28-2011, 15:34
Oh look an "ex cop" "expert". he did good when he stuck with his area of expertise saying when someone comes around a corner with a gun and lifts it their toast. But then he stepped outside of the area of his expertise and tried to pass judgment on the probable cause saying he isn't sure they had any.

Someone should send him a note and tell him not to fret someone who is paid to make that decision already did ( the judge who signed off on the warrant).

I thought the same. A Superior Court judge signs off on the warrant, and the (self?) appointed expert says the deputies didn't have enough probable cause.

I wonder if he even read the full affidavit?

Patchman
11-28-2011, 16:33
I had a similar thought.

The "ex-cop," after reading the search warrant application, formed an opinion. When after I too read the search warrant application that was posted, I too had an opinion. So what does his opinion, or my opinion, have anything to do with the price of chicken parts sold in your supermarket on Tuesdays?

(Hint: absolutely nada).

The LEOs submitted a search warrant application to the judge. I don't know the judge from a hole in the wall. The judge may be a complete newbie (unlikely), or has 20+ years experience examining search warrant applications.

In any case, the judge approved the search warrant.

Vigilant
11-28-2011, 16:42
Remember: The correct spelling is 'probably', not 'probable'.

Rookies. :supergrin:

Sam Spade
11-28-2011, 18:44
The LEOs submitted a search warrant application to the judge. I don't know the judge from a hole in the wall. The judge may be a complete newbie (unlikely), or has 20+ years experience examining search warrant applications.

In any case, the judge approved the search warrant.

I do. Know her from a hole in the wall, that is.

She been on the bench almost 20 years and is a professor at the University of Arizona College of Law. I've gotten warrants from her, and she's no rubber stamp.

Patchman
11-28-2011, 19:03
Then 'nuff said about the legal basis of the search warrant.

Mayhem like Me
11-29-2011, 09:13
Then 'nuff said about the legal basis of the search warrant.

well maybe if you use your head for more than resting your hat it's enough..
But for others that like to wring hands and sensationalize real life.. nothing is enough...

Patchman
11-29-2011, 14:07
You mean some people would rather nurish their biases, fantasies and pet conspiracy theories than face distasteful facts and unadorned realities?

Morris
11-30-2011, 11:51
You mean some people would rather nourish their biases, fantasies and pet conspiracy theories than face distasteful facts and unadorned realities?

:rofl::rofl: Like certain places here on GT . . .

steveksux
06-16-2012, 09:43
So he might not be canonized after all? what a surprise.

:whistling:Too bad the officers on scene didn't have cannons available, they could have obliged.. :supergrin:

Randy