Pro-gun lobby skips two words: 'well-regulated' [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HerrGlock
06-06-2011, 07:39
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20110606/WDH06/106060380/Lamont-Column-Pro-gun-lobby-skips-two-words-well-regulated-
Pro-gun lobby skips two words: 'well-regulated'

Atlas
06-06-2011, 07:43
I was told once that the term "regulated" was at time the Constitution was written synonymous with "equipped", as in "well equipped".

rhone89
06-06-2011, 07:44
Adults playing with guns? That's seriously the logic they are using? And did he REALLY try to imply that all you need to stop an insane gunman is your f---ing bare hands!?

Jesus Harold Christ someone please remove this ignorant pos from the gene pool.

stevelyn
06-06-2011, 07:44
Anything written in a WI paper is worthless.

HerrGlock
06-06-2011, 07:51
Anything written in a WI paper is worthless.

For the next few months it's going to be chock full of gun stuff until something gets passed and then a few months after that until people get used to... nothing happening.

HexHead
06-06-2011, 07:56
Pro-gun lobby skips two words: 'well-regulated'

And the antis always seem to gloss over four words, "Shall not be infringed".

A6Gator
06-06-2011, 08:03
And the antis always seem to gloss over four words, "Shall not be infringed".

More than a few states do too.

LoadToadBoss
06-06-2011, 08:17
I was told once that the term "regulated" was at time the Constitution was written synonymous with "equipped", as in "well equipped".
Yes, linguistic context is essential for a proper understanding of the text. However, a proper exegesis of the constitutional text is beyond the ability and the desire of the anti-self defense lobby.

"Well-regulated" and "shall not be infringed" in modern semantics are incompatible. The moment one begins to regulate a right it become infringed upon.

MtBaldy
06-06-2011, 09:05
All right, I even registered to post this:


Sure hope Doc Lamont is better at medicine than he is at grammar or linguistic history. No grammar expert has ever concluded that the right to keep and bear arms is contingent on the existence of a "well regulated" militia, or militia at all, in the 2nd Amendment as it is written. Beyond that, even if the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms WAS contingent on a "well regulated" militia it is important to understand that to the authors of the Bill of Right "well regulated" meant "well equipped" and not "closely monitored" as modern gun conrol proponents would have you believe. So, nice try Doc, but miserable FAIL. Why not just come clean and admit you don't like guns, they scare you, and because of your own irrational phobia no one should have a gun? So what if 2 million people a year use them to legally defend themselves? Most of them probably would have come through the experience unharmed anyway right?

Jerry
06-06-2011, 11:33
All right, I even registered to post this:

Excellent reply! You stated it much more eloquently than I could/would have. I’d love to have seen you add, (I know, it wouldn’t be considered “civil”) is… Dock, you do know that doctors accidently kill more people every year than guns do? I just can’t bring myself to be “civil” with those people.

MtBaldy
06-06-2011, 11:57
Excellent reply! You stated it much more eloquently than I could/would have. I’d love to have seen you add, (I know, it wouldn’t be considered “civil”) is… Dock, you do know that doctors accidently kill more people every year than guns do? I just can’t bring myself to be “civil” with those people.

Thanks. Yeah, I thought of a number of ways to continue but ended it there for the sake of decorum.

chivvalry
06-06-2011, 12:04
I was told once that the term "regulated" was at time the Constitution was written synonymous with "equipped", as in "well equipped".


Do you have any sort of reference for that? Sounds like someone is just trying to change the word to fit their view...


Dictionary.com

reg·u·late


–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing. 1. to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses.
2. to adjust to some standard or requirement, as amount, degree, etc.: to regulate the (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/the) temperature (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/temperature).
3. to adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation: to regulate a watch.


"regulate
c.1630, from L.L. regulatus, pp. of regulare "to control by rule, direct" (5c.), from L. regula "rule" (see regular (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/regular)). Regulation is first recorded 1672, "act of regulating;" sense of "rule for management" is first attested 1715. Regulator is first recorded 1655; in Eng. history, with a capital R-, "member of a commission appointed in 1687 to manage county elections." In U.S. history, applied to local posses that kept order (or disturbed it) in rural regions c.1767-71. Meaning "clock by which other timepieces are set" is attested from 1758."

chivvalry
06-06-2011, 12:07
However, I note that the first part of the second amendment simply supplies a reason for the second part... which is the directive issued in the amendment.

As passed by the Congress:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Gunnut 45/454
06-06-2011, 12:34
WI is run by stupid Liberals and Unions! So if they get CC which I highly doupt they will make it so hard to do it will be useless ! This is the state that enforces the Unconstitutional 1000' exclusion zone for schools! In Madison you can't carry a firearm anywhere in the city that you wouldn't be in violation!:rofl:

FireForged
06-07-2011, 19:47
I have read a quote from Alexander Hamilton where he said something to the effect of:

.....going though enough required military exercises to aquire a degree of perfection would entitle the milita to a character of being well regulated.

I am no scholar but it would seem to me that "well regulated" refers to rules and requirements.

paragon1
06-07-2011, 23:25
In the time and context of the Constitution, "regulated" meant something along the lines of "in good working order".

chivvalry
06-08-2011, 06:23
In the time and context of the Constitution, "regulated" meant something along the lines of "in good working order".

Do you have a citation for that interpretation?

eracer
06-08-2011, 06:28
Yes, linguistic context is essential for a proper understanding of the text. However, a proper exegesis of the constitutional text is beyond the ability and the desire of the anti-self defense lobby.

"Well-regulated" and "shall not be infringed" in modern semantics are incompatible. The moment one begins to regulate a right it become infringed upon.You mean for the anti's, right?

Because we know that the etymology of 'regulated' is historically synonymous with 'trained,' right?

eracer
06-08-2011, 06:31
Do you have a citation for that interpretation?
Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29: The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

chivvalry
06-08-2011, 06:50
Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29: The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

He seems to be saying that he disagrees with the insertion of the requirement for a well regulated militia as it would be a real grievance and a serious public inconvenience and loss. I don't see how this affects the meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in a historical context...

chivvalry
06-08-2011, 08:11
How about this...

Madison's introduction of the Bill of Rights had the verbiage around the RTKBA a little different. The emphasis on the individual's right seems to be more prominent in his original version.

http://www.usconstitution.net/madisonbor.html

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

eracer
06-08-2011, 12:22
He seems to be saying that he disagrees with the insertion of the requirement for a well regulated militia as it would be a real grievance and a serious public inconvenience and loss. I don't see how this affects the meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in a historical context... To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia...

This practically defines well-regulated

Hamilton was saying that it would be an impractical burden to expect the government to train and equip (regulate) the militia (yeomanry.)

Hence, responsibility is imposed by the right to keep and bear arms. The people need to maintain themselves as a well-regulated militia.

chivvalry
06-08-2011, 12:31
To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia...

This practically defines well-regulated

Hamilton was saying that it would be an impractical burden to expect the government to train and equip (regulate) the militia (yeomanry.)

Hence, responsibility is imposed by the right to keep and bear arms. The people need to maintain themselves as a well-regulated militia.

I disagree that it defines "well regulated". It may define his opinion of "the character of a well regulated militia" but it doesn't define that "trained" means "regulated". There is no occurrence anywhere that I can come up with that says "trained" is a synonym for "regulated". I think focusing on the "well regulated militia" portion of the 2A is a serious mistake... it DOESN'T MATTER what that portion actually says as the directive portion of the amendment states quite clearly "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Any reasoning within the amendment as to why is superfluous to that statement.

<table class="the_content" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">Main Entry: </td> <td> regulated (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/regulated) </td></tr> <tr> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">Part of Speech: </td> <td>adjective </td></tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Definition: </td> <td>controlled </td></tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Synonyms: </td> <td> adapted (http://thesaurus.com/browse/adapted), adjusted, arranged, coordinated, directed (http://thesaurus.com/browse/directed), fixed (http://thesaurus.com/browse/fixed), governed, managed (http://thesaurus.com/browse/managed), monitored, ordered (http://thesaurus.com/browse/ordered), organized (http://thesaurus.com/browse/organized), ruled, set, settled (http://thesaurus.com/browse/settled), standardized, supervised, systematized </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Antonyms: </td> <td> confused (http://thesaurus.com/browse/confused), disarranged, upset (http://thesaurus.com/browse/upset) </td></tr></tbody></table>