having trouble at 100 yards with aimpoint [Archive] - Glock Talk

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nickod
06-10-2011, 05:03
i use a 2 moa aimpoint comp ml3 i can never do any thing better than 5-10" group at 100 yards. and truth be told my 100 yard groups are closer to 10" than 5" , and this from a riffle rest. when i shoot off hand at 100 yards, i can almost..... almost keep my rounds on the 12" birchwood casey shoot-n-see target. is this poor shooting? or this the fact that im using a cqb optic to make longer shoots? Is there any one out there who chews out the center of a target using an aimpoint at longer ranges? are my black-riffle skills severely lacking or is this stuff typical with red dot optics? btw, theese results are with all ammos, from 77smk to 55g xm193. some one help! im not sure why but i was under the impression that with practice id be making head shots at 300m. at this rate there is just no way.

faawrenchbndr
06-10-2011, 05:28
Wow,......I have a Comp M2 on my Spikes dedicated .22LR upper and I shoot 3" groups all day long.
What mount are you using? Are you sure the Aimpoint is not a clone?
Did you buy it new?

M&P15T
06-10-2011, 05:32
How did you get the impression that you would be making head-shots at 300M with an Aimpoint? Have you looked at a man-sized target at 300M?

Last weekend I was shooting at 100 yards with my Eotech equiped AR, and feel very confident I could make a head-shot at that distance, but three times that distance brings alot of other factors into consideration, like trajectory, wind, etc.

I think you need to re-evaluate your expectations.

jdodd
06-10-2011, 05:52
Is it a real Aimpoint? What do your groups look like @ say 50 yards? Who made your rifle?

I have a comp m4s on my 16" and a 10" group using a rest is either you or a fake aimpoint.

-J

nickod
06-10-2011, 06:06
um yeah....real aimpoint bought from larue tactical. in larue cantilever mount.. bcm 16" upper 1/7 twist. groups at 50 great. i just get spread out pretty bad at 100 yards. i loose the dot in the target alot. i just find it difficult.

eracer
06-10-2011, 06:30
um yeah....real aimpoint bought from larue tactical. in larue cantilever mount.. bcm 16" upper 1/7 twist. groups at 50 great. i just get spread out pretty bad at 100 yards. i loose the dot in the target alot. i just find it difficult.Do you have astigmatism? Are the edges of the dot clear? Or do you see a fuzzy, spiky shape? If the latter, then maybe an Aimpoint is not for you? A 2 MOA dot should not get 'lost' in the target at 100 yards.

Let another good shooter have a go with it.

JASV.17
06-10-2011, 06:46
A few thoughts...

What is your rifle zeroed at? Do you know the correct hold-over for it? Do you know a good way to estimate your hold-over for the distance?

Reason I ask, is because when I first got to shooting I sighted in at 25yrds (I want a 50, but my range doesn't have it). At 25yrds, beautiful groups. Then I moved to 100. Horrible. I learned that at 100, I need to aim about 6" low.

Sounds easy enough, but I was having a hard time knowing what was 6" low at 100. Once I got that figured out (also using different targets helped) my groups improved greatly.

nickod
06-10-2011, 06:58
I have it zeroed at 50 yards meaning its a tad high at 100 but the groups are larger than I would like regardless, and that's using a rest.

faawrenchbndr
06-10-2011, 07:12
You may try different colored targets. You say you are "losing the dot"
Can you explain? How much experience do you have shooting an AR?

farmer2
06-10-2011, 07:34
What are you 100 yrd groups like with open sights? My guess is you just need more practice. Plus 5 inches at 100yrds with an aimpoint isn't that bad.


farmer2

JASV.17
06-10-2011, 09:34
.Plus 5 inches at 100yrds with an aimpoint isn't that bad.


farmer2

Now that it's been said...I'd proudly hang that on my fridge!

BBJones
06-10-2011, 11:18
A few thoughts.

Eliminate some variables:
- use one kind of ammo. You mentioned 77gr SMK's. That is great ammo. use that as a benchmark. typical XM193 is 4+ MOA ammo (10 shot groups).
- get a target that will set you up for success. make a target with a 5" black dot on a white background. Center the ML3's dot in the black dot.
- try to shoot only in respiratory pauses. (google it)
- Have a friend or another shooter (preferably someone who is a good shooter) try it.
- Take your time. No need to do it fast. Shoot slow and steady with breaks in between groups. Once proper technique is learned then pick up the pace if desired.
- try shooting with both eyes open and one eye closed. (not sure which you are doing now.) I tend to shoot better groups with an eye closed, but get more eye fatigue too.
- As someone else mentioned, what does your dot look like? sharp or sort of oblong and spikey? You may have an astigmatism.

Head shoots @ 300 yards with Aimpoint is a bit too lofty a goal. It can be done but few factors need to be there.
- An awesome shooter to do it consistently (not 1.5 times out of 10)
- Great ammo capable of less than 2MOA
- a rifle that can deliver the ammo accurately


Lastly ignore most of what you read on the internet when the post reads like this. "My XYZ AR is 1 MOA all day long with irons." 98.44% of that is BS. the best 3 shot group of of 20 is not what you use to judge your ability, rifle or ammo. IMO, if you took say 10 5-shot groups and avg'd it or 3 10-shot groups you would have something meaningful.

fuzzy03cls
06-10-2011, 13:29
If it's happening with all ammo you tried the problem is you. Either lack of fundamentals or a problem with your eyes at distance.

faawrenchbndr
06-10-2011, 13:42
Could also be a loose mount

Minnow
06-10-2011, 14:53
Turn down the intensity of the dot and try again.

Gunnut 45/454
06-10-2011, 18:49
I'd say drop the Aimpoint and learn to get 2" groups with the irons at 100 yards first!
When you master the irons then going back to your optic will be easy! You got to learn the fundimentals first! Cause unless you got years of rifle shooting behind you your wasting your time!:whistling:

BBJones
06-10-2011, 20:01
I'd say drop the Aimpoint and learn to get 2" groups with the irons at 100 yards first!
When you master the irons then going back to your optic will be easy! You got to learn the fundimentals first! Cause unless you got years of rifle shooting behind you your wasting your time!:whistling:

2" groups (not talking cherry picked 3-shot groups) with irons are a pipe dream with that rifle and standard ammo. With match ammo or handloads it is possible, MAYBE (his rifle may not even be capable of it, CL is meant for durability not match accuracy).

Captains1911
06-10-2011, 20:55
Have an experienced shooter shoot a few groups with the same ammo, then you will know if it's you or the gun. Most likely it's you.

Reb 56
06-10-2011, 23:53
At 100 yrds I could see the dot just fine,I just couldn't see the target details just a black square. Realized with aging eyes I needed magnification got a 4x scope and made a world of difference. Can now shoot 1 to 2 inch groups most of the time.

Jack Black
06-11-2011, 02:22
Turn down the brightness as much as you can while still being able to see it. Some people will aim with just a small portion of the dot, like the top edge, rather than covering the target with the whole dot.

ancient_serpent
06-11-2011, 03:31
Definately go back to irons with the same rifle and try again. Lot of good advice in this thread for your issue.

Mongosafari
06-11-2011, 05:41
Turn down the brightness as much as you can while still being able to see it. Some people will aim with just a small portion of the dot, like the top edge, rather than covering the target with the whole dot.

That is what I found I have to do with most dot sights. Higher intensity creates a halo around the dot making it bigger. I turn the rheostat down enough to still see the dot.

I also have to put speed tape over the fiber optic on my ACOG TA-11. Same effect reticle enlarges (visual perspective) under bright sun light.

K. Foster
06-11-2011, 07:10
Nick, do you have irons on your gun? How are your groups with them? I don’t want to be rude but are you sure you understand the fundamentals of rifle shooting, respiratory pause, trigger control, etc? Can you get good groups with another rifle? With dot sights it’s important to have a center aiming point large enough that you can center your dot in it.
You can always contact BCM and send it back for them to look at. They have good customer service.

kgain673
06-11-2011, 07:37
2 factors are in play, fundamentals and the REALITY of shooting with an Aimpoint. Aimpoints are not scopes they are meant for fast combat shooting within 200m. They will get you on target fast and fairly accurate, much faster then irons. But you have to do your part, shoot as much as you can and don't shoot WOLF! I'm not a great marksmen by any means and I have a rare astigmatism that can't be corrected, but sometimes I impress myself, sometimes I suck. Here is another example, my brother (US ARmy) can't hit the side of a barn with irons, but shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yards with an Aimpoint. Maybe you should make sure your aimpoint is zeroed.

billyblooshoes
06-11-2011, 13:12
what are the main concerns with using an aimpoint or eotech for someone with an astigmatism?

eracer
06-11-2011, 14:21
what are the main concerns with using an aimpoint or eotech for someone with an astigmatism?The problem is that astigmatism can be corrected for a single distance, and that is generally infinity.

The dot, being several inches away, is subject to astigmatic distortion, and often appears as a blurry or 'spiky' blob.

Jack Black
06-12-2011, 15:02
what are the main concerns with using an aimpoint or eotech for someone with an astigmatism?
For me, my astigmatism hinders accuracy. It's not a red dot sight, it's a red blob sight. A sight that will change shape and size from shot to shot. I turned down the brightness as much as possible, and that has helped some. It's helped me enough that I've decided not to sell it, but I've also accepted that a red dot sight was never meant for precision accuracy. It's designed for quick acquisition, and it does that very well. I also bought a 1-4X scope for a little more precision fun on the range.

billyblooshoes
06-12-2011, 15:22
The problem is that astigmatism can be corrected for a single distance, and that is generally infinity.

The dot, being several inches away, is subject to astigmatic distortion, and often appears as a blurry or 'spiky' blob.

For me, my astigmatism hinders accuracy. It's not a red dot sight, it's a red blob sight. A sight that will change shape and size from shot to shot. I turned down the brightness as much as possible, and that has helped some. It's helped me enough that I've decided not to sell it, but I've also accepted that a red dot sight was never meant for precision accuracy. It's designed for quick acquisition, and it does that very well. I also bought a 1-4X scope for a little more precision fun on the range.

thanks for clearing that up guys. i have an astigmatism as well, and just used my new primary arms micro the other day at the outdoor range and i did notice the dot wasnt too crisp. i had thought it was just because its a "knock off" brand as opposed to a real aimpoint.

doneroman
06-14-2011, 06:37
im not sure why but i was under the impression that with practice id be making head shots at 300m. at this rate there is just no way.

300m consistent headshots with an Aimpoint is pretty tough for anybody. What rifle are you using?

fuzzy03cls
06-14-2011, 07:43
what are the main concerns with using an aimpoint or eotech for someone with an astigmatism?
I have one too. But it doesn't seem to effect me much using a Eotech. I do have to turn the brightness down a little. I'm accurate enough within 100 yards. I wear glasses so maybe it's corrected a little.
Where it effect me is iron sights. I have a hard time seeing them at 100 yards & pistol sights at distance too.

billy b
06-16-2011, 10:38
i have a sightron red dot on my s&w ar. it will shoot 1 1/4 groups at 100 yards. but, with the 1 moa dot and the right type of target is critical.

BBJones
06-16-2011, 13:02
i have a sightron red dot on my s&w ar. it will shoot 1 1/4 groups at 100 yards. but, with the 1 moa dot and the right type of target is critical.


Size of dot has nothing to do with it. I do agree choice of target is important.

faawrenchbndr
06-16-2011, 13:06
BOTH are very important, dot size & target choice!

nickod
06-16-2011, 13:48
Wow I didn't expect this thread to blow up like this, thanks guys. No,yeah......I'm 27, my eyes are fine, I think. I don't think there is anything wrong with the gun. I always turn down the aimpoint. It seems a little fuzzy when I turn it down, by that I mean, its not a perfect circle. Are they all like that? its not horibly fuzzy when I turn it down, just not as round as when its on a brighter setting, normal right? And yeah, the only time I used my irons was when I zeroed at 50 yards the frst time at the range after I built the thing. My mount is tight as hell with locktight. I think every one is correct. When I zeroed at 50 yards with both irons and aimpoint I was slow, focuse on my breathing, and trigger control was flawless. All because I wanted a good zero........so I think what happedned is after that experience with good rifle shooting I thought I could just do it "sloppy and fast style" and get the same results. So guess I need to focus on the fundamental better, like I did that first time. But I deffinatly find the aimpoint at 100 yards more challenging than I expected. As you can tell I'm new at this.

Alaskapopo
06-16-2011, 15:09
What are you 100 yrd groups like with open sights? My guess is you just need more practice. Plus 5 inches at 100yrds with an aimpoint isn't that bad.


farmer2
No offense but that is crap. With ball ammo and a red dot at 100 yards from a rest you should be able to hold at least 3 moa. My AK with a Aimpoint can hold 4 moa. With match ammo in an AR with a red dot you should be able to hold 1 to 2 moa depending on your rifle.
Pat

Colt groups with Aimpoint M4
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Colt%20AR%20targets/Coltgroups.jpg

farmer2
06-17-2011, 01:19
No offense but that is crap. With ball ammo and a red dot at 100 yards from a rest you should be able to hold at least 3 moa. My AK with a Aimpoint can hold 4 moa. With match ammo in an AR with a red dot you should be able to hold 1 to 2 moa depending on your rifle.
Pat

Colt groups with Aimpoint M4
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Colt%20AR%20targets/Coltgroups.jpg

my opinions crap......someones trying to hurt my feelings:wavey:


farmer2

faawrenchbndr
06-17-2011, 05:10
What are you 100 yrd groups like with open sights? My guess is you just need more practice. Plus 5 inches at 100yrds with an aimpoint isn't that bad........farmer2

No offense but that is crap. With ball ammo and a red dot at 100 yards from a rest you should be able to hold at least 3 moa. My AK with a Aimpoint can hold 4 moa. With match ammo in an AR with a red dot you should be able to hold 1 to 2 moa depending on your rifle.
Pat

Colt groups with Aimpoint M4.......

Both of you are correct,......sort of.

I believe for the inexperienced to average shooters, farmer2 is about right.
Shooter needs more experience.

Now, for trained shooters with as much trigger time as some, Pat you are spot on!
The optic, rifle and ammo is capable of sub 3" groupings at 100m

farmer2
06-17-2011, 11:06
Both of you are correct,......sort of.

I believe for the inexperienced to average shooters, farmer2 is about right.
Shooter needs more experience.

Now, for trained shooters with as much trigger time as some, Pat you are spot on!
The optic, rifle and ammo is capable of sub 3" groupings at 100m

Ya....I have shot with several AR owners that couldn't put ten shots on a sheet of paper at 100 yards. Therefore, to me, a 5inch group isn't that bad for a beginner.

farmer2

shadow65
06-17-2011, 13:15
Make sure the Aimpoint is turned down and not blooming. A 2 moa dot when too bright, can bloom to 6 moa

Gunnut 45/454
06-18-2011, 13:32
Isn't the whole point of these Optics is to get you on target fast-faster then irons? As well as accurately? Whats and Larue Aimpoint going for now? For the kind of money you guys spend on these things yea I'd be kind of miffed if I wasn't getting close too 2 MOA or better at 100 yards! Here's what I can do with my -Non Milspec 16" DPMS carbine with a Cheap /crappy Barska 4 x and AE 5.56mm in under a minute with a nice stiff wind at 100yards!:supergrin: Ten years ago that would be cut in half - dam old eyes!:steamed:

faawrenchbndr
06-18-2011, 13:55
Isn't the whole point of these Optics is to get you on target fast-faster then irons? As well as accurately? Whats and Larue Aimpoint going for now? For the kind of money you guys spend on these things yea I'd be kind of miffed if I wasn't getting close too 2 MOA or better at 100 yards! Here's what I can do with my -Non Milspec 16" DPMS carbine with a Cheap /crappy Barska 4 x and AE 5.56mm in under a minute with a nice stiff wind at 100yards!:supergrin: Ten years ago that would be cut in half - dam old eyes!:steamed:

An Aimpoint in a Larue mount? I think I have about $450 in mine.
I can shoot 3-4" groups with mine. My Leupold 1.5-4 scope, I get 2" groups.

You're shooting a 6" at 100? Not too awfully bad with a Barska!

Gunnut 45/454
06-18-2011, 15:10
faawrenchbndr
Yea for using AE 5.56mm where most guy's get 2-3" average with high powered scopes and bench rested I'll take it every day of the week! I'll have to try that drill with 60 gr Vmax in some premium reloads!:supergrin:

faawrenchbndr
06-18-2011, 15:44
Yes Sri,.........better ammo may shrink your groupings in nearly half.

JBaird22
06-22-2011, 21:23
The dots and lines aren't clear and effect accuracy. One person suggested lowering the brightness of the dot on the aimpoint and that can be a quick and simple way of reducing the size of the dot and increasing accuracy.

Also, I am more accurate shooting prone than I am from a bench. But then all of the other components of marksmanship come back into play such as breathing, trigger control, etc.

HDRider2002
11-25-2011, 14:00
Now that it's been said...I'd proudly hang that on my fridge!

+1 here. My 2MOA Aimpoint Pro will result in 3-4" groups at 100 yards. For a non magnified optic, thats nothing to sneeze at. Now, if you had a magnified optic and were all over the paper at 100 yards, then i'd say there was either something loose on the gun, or your technique is lacking. I'm probably going nto pick up one of those Barska 4-16 power scopes they are selling for $100 so play around with at the range.

cdog533
11-25-2011, 14:49
If you try the iron sights, and the results are the same, you know it's you.

If the results are better, you know it's somewhere in the Aimpoint system or the way you are using it.

100m benchrest groups with iron sights (on a good, visible target) should be pretty small.

I would use American made, factory ammo.

samuse
11-25-2011, 23:28
Isn't the whole point of these Optics is to get you on target fast-faster then irons? As well as accurately? Whats and Larue Aimpoint going for now? For the kind of money you guys spend on these things yea I'd be kind of miffed if I wasn't getting close too 2 MOA or better at 100 yards! Here's what I can do with my -Non Milspec 16" DPMS carbine with a Cheap /crappy Barska 4 x and AE 5.56mm in under a minute with a nice stiff wind at 100yards!:supergrin: Ten years ago that would be cut in half - dam old eyes!:steamed:


I think you missed the point. An Aimpoint in a LaRue mount is a VERY hard use optic, made for getting on target quickly, especially under less than ideal positions. They're also made to do it for a long time.


If you pick two out of good, fast or cheap, LaRue+Aimpoint are never going to be an option if you pick cheap, but you'll goo and fast every time.

Either the OP needs to work on his fundamentals or he has an equipment problem.

JerryinPA
11-26-2011, 06:24
Turn down the intensity of the dot and try again.

This is exactly what I was going to suggest. When I'm trying for accuracy and small groups at 100 yards, I turn the intensity of the dot way down.

Also, since I have a 4 MOA dot, I place the 12 o'clock position of the dot where I want the bullet to impact, rather than covering the entire target with the dot.

Regards,

Jerry.

jrs93accord
11-26-2011, 08:30
I have an Ak with a cheap Aimpoint clone mounted on it and I get 5" groupings at 100 yds. with it. My ARs with the ML2 4MOA, I can get 2"-3" groups at 100 yds. with no problem. I DO NOT use any cantilever mounts.

Landric
11-26-2011, 09:01
My patrol rifle (a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle pre-580 series) has an Aimpoint CompC SM mounted on an Ultimak rail. The CompC SM has a 7 MOA dot and I can easily group around 5" at 100 yards using our practice ammunition (Georgia Arms 55 grain FMJ). You have some sort of problem, though I can't say as to whether its the optic, the rifle, or the "nut behind the trigger". :)

Aimpoints are great for close range fast shooting. While they are functional for longer ranges, they are not ideal for precision shooting. They are intended for "minute of enemy" shooting, not minute of angle shooting. I had an Aimpoint PRO previously, but I find the 2 MOA dot too small. The 2 MOA dot flares for me, while the larger dots are perfect circles. I sold the PRO. I am eventually going to replace it with a Comp ML2 with a 4 MOA dot. My AR is currently wearing a 1-4x scope in a Bobro mount, and I'd like that Comp ML2 in another Bobro mount so I can keep both sighted in and swap out as necessary.

MrMurphy
11-26-2011, 10:33
It's an end user problem.

Aimpoints, with care are easily capable of 2MOA.

At 100m, not really an issue. Past 150, it's minute of Hadji, you're going for hits, not tiny groups.

Ensure the mount is properly applied with correct tension (yes, you CAN do it wrong). Shoot prone off bags, take your freaking time, use your fundamentals and preferably a spare shooter.

Run dime drills. Breathe. Don't get in a hurry, you're not a 17 yr old seeing his first pair of ****.