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achysklic
06-11-2011, 16:01
As most of you know today is Gods weekly Sabbath, it begins at sunset fri. evening and ends at sunset sat. evening. What most of you don't know is that at the end of the weekly Sabbath today begins a High Sabbath of God. Pentecost one of Gods annual Holydays begins at sunset today. It is often referred to as the feast of weeks or ingathering,also day of FirstFruits. Most of you in churchianity only know of the term from the book of acts where Gods people were keeping this Holyday and upon hearing about Christ message repented,were baptized, had hands laid upon them and the Father sent His spirit to dwell in them and teach them.

In prophecy Pentecost pictures the gathering of Jesus in getting His church. It pictures the 1st resurrection of the dead. (Christ Church). If all this seems foriegn to you I suggest you spend this Holyday praying, studing, and repenting to find yourself in Gods true church and take part is His Pentecost now and forever.

Peace

jjboogie
06-16-2011, 20:48
As most of you know today is Gods weekly Sabbath, it begins at sunset fri. evening and ends at sunset sat. evening. What most of you don't know is that at the end of the weekly Sabbath today begins a High Sabbath of God. Pentecost one of Gods annual Holydays begins at sunset today. It is often referred to as the feast of weeks or ingathering,also day of FirstFruits. Most of you in churchianity only know of the term from the book of acts where Gods people were keeping this Holyday and upon hearing about Christ message repented,were baptized, had hands laid upon them and the Father sent His spirit to dwell in them and teach them.

In prophecy Pentecost pictures the gathering of Jesus in getting His church. It pictures the 1st resurrection of the dead. (Christ Church). If all this seems foriegn to you I suggest you spend this Holyday praying, studing, and repenting to find yourself in Gods true church and take part is His Pentecost now and forever.

Peace


This is partially right and partially wrong.


Jesus disciples went to Jerusalem because Jesus specifically told them to stay there because they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit!

Tongues of fire came down on the apostles and the apostles spoke in tongues and preached the message of Christ to Jews there celebrated Pentecost.

Then 3,000 were baptized that day and were saved.

Pentecost today is no longer a requirement for God's assembly to uphold.

That was for ancient Israel under the Old Covenant.

Brasso
06-16-2011, 23:54
Actually, we kept it last Sunday. We use the conjunction.

As far as Old Covenant, I just don't have the stomach to go into that again. Suffice it to say, every Feast Day depicts Messiah. The Torah was given on Pentacost. The Holy Spirit was given on Pentacost. And something else will probably happen in the future on Pentacost. Remember the Latter Rain? The first time was considered a down payment. Payment in full is still to come.

I believe First Fruits falls on the first Sunday after Passover, but starts the omer count to Pentacost.

achysklic
06-17-2011, 04:17
This is partially right and partially wrong.


Jesus disciples went to Jerusalem because Jesus specifically told them to stay there because they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit!

Tongues of fire came down on the apostles and the apostles spoke in tongues and preached the message of Christ to Jews there celebrated Pentecost.

Then 3,000 were baptized that day and were saved.

Pentecost today is no longer a requirement for God's assembly to uphold.

That was for ancient Israel under the Old Covenant.

Everyone was gather together because this was a Holy day of God all the children of Israel always kept Gods feasts.

As far as no longer required I ask for you to show proof of this?

If you read lev. 23 it clearly states Gods Holy days are forever throughout your generations. Has forever stopped?

Also all of Gods Holy Days are still mentioned being kept by the apostles long after Jesus died in the New Test.

Shall I show you?

jjboogie
06-17-2011, 08:49
Everyone was gather together because this was a Holy day of God all the children of Israel always kept Gods feasts.

As far as no longer required I ask for you to show proof of this?

If you read lev. 23 it clearly states Gods Holy days are forever throughout your generations. Has forever stopped?

Also all of Gods Holy Days are still mentioned being kept by the apostles long after Jesus died in the New Test.

Shall I show you?


So you celebrated Pentecost?

How?

achysklic
06-17-2011, 09:28
So you celebrated Pentecost?

How?

Yes I did, I kept it as a Sabbath, I had a holy convacation on it, sent a offering to God as commanded.

I done just as all the true christians have since God had given it.

If you reject Gods Sabbaths you reject God.

BTW in Lev. 23 here's a hint these are not the feasts of the jews or Israelites.
They are Feasts of the Lord! He says they are MY Feasts! to be kept forever!

jjboogie
06-17-2011, 10:03
Yes I did, I kept it as a Sabbath, I had a holy convacation on it, sent a offering to God as commanded.

But that is not how God commands you celebrate Pentecost.

Vic Hays
06-17-2011, 10:26
If you are a Gentile convert to Christianity, it is not a commandment of God that you celebrate the feast days. If you choose to celebrate Pentecost or any other feast day it is ok to do so as long as you make it clear that it is not an obligation.

For circumcised Jews it is a commandment. Those who are of the book of the law are required to do all of it.

Paul kept Pentecost but made it clear that the Gentiles were to do no such thing.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The early church contained both circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles. Actually, it still does.

Brasso
06-17-2011, 10:46
There's only one Law Vic. It applies to Israel. How can Feast Days which depict Messiah not be applicable?

achysklic
06-17-2011, 14:10
God never changes. If he had changed there would be a direct command from God Himself not to keep the feasts.

I can give you the verses in the new test where all the feast days were kept after Jesus died.

Also if you look at prophecy you will see those same feast days are being observed.

So what you are saying Vic is that God gave the feast days to the children of Israel forever, then done away with them through the new conv. then re-establishes those same feasts days that were to be kept forever to begin with ?

Also Vic nice slight of hand acts 20 and acts 21 are not talking about Keeping Gods Holy Days.

jjboogie
06-17-2011, 19:09
God never changes. If he had changed there would be a direct command from God Himself not to keep the feasts.

I can give you the verses in the new test where all the feast days were kept after Jesus died.

Also if you look at prophecy you will see those same feast days are being observed.

So what you are saying Vic is that God gave the feast days to the children of Israel forever, then done away with them through the new conv. then re-establishes those same feasts days that were to be kept forever to begin with ?

Also Vic nice slight of hand acts 20 and acts 21 are not talking about Keeping Gods Holy Days.


The feasts and Sabbaths are everlasting as long as the covenant's in place.

Well the covenant is done away with! We have a new one! It's been around for 2,000 years now!

Vic Hays
06-17-2011, 19:18
God never changes. If he had changed there would be a direct command from God Himself not to keep the feasts.

I can give you the verses in the new test where all the feast days were kept after Jesus died.

Also if you look at prophecy you will see those same feast days are being observed.

So what you are saying Vic is that God gave the feast days to the children of Israel forever, then done away with them through the new conv. then re-establishes those same feasts days that were to be kept forever to begin with ?

Also Vic nice slight of hand acts 20 and acts 21 are not talking about Keeping Gods Holy Days.

Sure the feast days were kept, just not an obligation for the Gentiles.

I didn't say it, the Jerusalem council said it and Paul said it.

If you understand that Jesus is our high priest under the New Covenant you would understand about the sanctuary service. Read the book of hebrews from about chapter 8-11.

Watch out for those forevers. The words used do not mean unending.

Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul warned the Gentiles not to get caught up in the book opf the law.

Galatians 5:2-4 Behold, I paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effewct unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

achysklic
06-18-2011, 07:38
So let's me use just one example of the feast days continueing on forever shall I.

The prophet says this in Zechariah 14:17 "It shall be, that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain." It doesn’t rain down there in Egypt anyway so they depend on the Nile River rising.

Verse 19: "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." This is not only a commanded festival, it has sanctions connected with it, if you don’t do this, then God is going to punish you for it.

Notice all the families of the earth will be keeping this feast.

So you think God gave this feast, done away with it under a new conv. then Gave it again?
Come on Vic you know better!

I can go on and on and show where these feasts (Sabbaths BTW) WERE never done away with.

I just find it strange how you embrace Gods weekly Sabbath and reject His annual Sabbaths. Kinda strange indeed.

biblefreak
06-18-2011, 07:54
I have this funny feeling that one day, hopefully soon, when Christ comes for His Church that there will be one last awkward moment. In that moment, that twinkling of an eye, we will all with our eyes finally opened both collectively and individually say "Oh! Now I get it!"

Brasso
06-18-2011, 08:17
Galatians 5:2-4 Behold, I paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effewct unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You know very well that these two passages are speaking of justification by works. They have nothing to do with keeping the commandments, because this line of reasoning applies to any work, including the "10 Commandments".

Vic Hays
06-18-2011, 09:39
So let's me use just one example of the feast days continueing on forever shall I.

The prophet says this in Zechariah 14:17 "It shall be, that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain." It doesn’t rain down there in Egypt anyway so they depend on the Nile River rising.

Verse 19: "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." This is not only a commanded festival, it has sanctions connected with it, if you don’t do this, then God is going to punish you for it.

Notice all the families of the earth will be keeping this feast.

So you think God gave this feast, done away with it under a new conv. then Gave it again?
Come on Vic you know better!

I can go on and on and show where these feasts (Sabbaths BTW) WERE never done away with.

I just find it strange how you embrace Gods weekly Sabbath and reject His annual Sabbaths. Kinda strange indeed.

The weekly Sabbath was from creation. The book of the law was added because of transgression.

The yearly sanctuary cycle was done away with to institute the New Covenant. The Feast of Tabernacles will be kept, but only one time just as the sacrifice of Jesus was only one time, not over and over as in the tabernacle service with lambs and goats.

Here is the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles in the New Jerusalem. Yes, all families of the earth will be keeping it:

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

achysklic
06-18-2011, 09:41
As for the new conv. Vic read this prophecy about it.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Notice Vic God says His Sabbaths not Sabbath.

So you see His new cov. includes all His Sabbaths both weekly and annually!

Vic better read the prophecy concerning the feast of tabernacles again it's not a one time thing, it happen once a yr every yr.

Vic the annaul Sabbaths are Sabbaths of the Lord also. Refuse them if you will but you might as well keep sunday also


Is there any logic to the idea that even though the Bible states the Holy Days will be kept in the Millennium, there is no necessity for us to keep them today? A look at the Old Testament tells us, without doubt, the Holy Days will be observed during the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16–19, Ezekiel 45:21, 25). Their observance during this time period demonstrates that they have not been abrogated. The same is true of the weekly Sabbath, for it, too, will be observed during the Millennium (Ezekiel 46:3).

achysklic
06-18-2011, 10:04
The entire Sermon on the Mount clearly shows Jesus did "magnify the law, and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21). He brought it up to the spiritual level which God intended from the beginning. He "filled it full." And now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, man is capable of obeying it in its spiritual intent (Hebrews 8:10, Galatians 5:24). The New Covenant indeed magnified the Old! The New Covenant is not a "separate package" from the Old. The New Covenant is the expansion of the Old Covenant.


Paul did not merely attend the festivals. Acts 18:21 says, referring to a statement made by Paul, ". . . I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem. . . ." "Keep" is the Greek poiesai, from poieo, meaning "to keep, celebrate" (Analytical Greek Lexicon, by Harper, p. 332). In Acts 20:16, Paul states, ". . . he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost." "To be" is the Greek genesthai, from ginomai. The Analytical Greek Lexicon by Harper (p. 79) says that the meaning of the word with respect to festivals is "to be kept, celebrated, solemnized as festivals." It would have been purposeless for Paul to have attended the festivals if he did not keep them. And if there were no need for Christians to keep the Holy Days, Paul certainly set an improper example—one that would have most surely led to confusion among the disciples. Those who say Paul did not keep the feasts find it difficult to explain what Paul was doing attending the feasts—for he did not both keep and not keep them.

The fact that Christ and Paul observed the Holy Days is ample proof they were not abrogated by the New Covenant; they are an essential part of the New Covenant. Both Christ and Paul set an example for us to follow (I Peter 2:21, I John 2:6, I Corinthians 11:1, Philippians 4:9). Those who follow Christ will keep the Holy Days.

achysklic
06-18-2011, 14:41
Ok one last quick question for you Vic.

If Gods Holy Days were only part of the old cov. The why was the early church keeping the Day of Pentecost when God gave the Holy Spirit to mankind?

jjboogie
06-18-2011, 15:27
Ok one last quick question for you Vic.

If Gods Holy Days were only part of the old cov. The why was the early church keeping the Day of Pentecost when God gave the Holy Spirit to mankind?


Because Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they are clothed with power from on high!

To inaugurate the NT church!

Besides it was perfectly ok for true Israel to observe the Jewish holidays and traditions!

Remember the early church was all Jewish for several years!

It would have been wrong for them to try and force Gentile Christians to observe those holidays since they were for Israelites.

achysklic
06-18-2011, 16:30
Because Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they are clothed with power from on high!

To inaugurate the NT church!

Besides it was perfectly ok for true Israel to observe the Jewish holidays and traditions!

Remember the early church was all Jewish for several years!

It would have been wrong for them to try and force Gentile Christians to observe those holidays since they were for Israelites.

Are you serious?

THEY ARE GODS FEASTS not the Israelites. (or the jews as you put it) (BTW not all Israelites are jews)

His Sabbaths!

If they were no longer to keep Gods Holy Days( not the jews) This would have been the perfect time to give a sermon on not no longer keeping them wouldn't it?

But oh wait, no sermon was EVER given, no command was EVER recorded in the new test was it?

In fact read on a few chapters in acts and you will see the early church keeping the other Holy Days of God.....Strange huh?

Man cannot change God, for God to change there has to be a command given, also Jesus kept all the Holy Days ( since He gave them) and Paul stated he did everything Jesus did. If Paul didn't I wouldn't believe a word he said!

Kingarthurhk
06-18-2011, 16:53
Collosians 2:16-23, " <SUP>16</SUP> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. <SUP id=en-NIV-29512 class=versenum>17</SUP> These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. <SUP id=en-NIV-29513 class=versenum>18</SUP> Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. <SUP id=en-NIV-29514 class=versenum>19</SUP> They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
<SUP id=en-NIV-29515 class=versenum>20</SUP> Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: <SUP id=en-NIV-29516 class=versenum>21</SUP> “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? <SUP id=en-NIV-29517 class=versenum>22</SUP> These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. <SUP id=en-NIV-29518 class=versenum>23</SUP> Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

So, the law of ordinances and feast days are no longer required. You are right _THE_ Sabbath day is still in effect as it has been from the foundation of the world, but the special Sabbath festivals, New Moon celebrations, are no longer required. The ceremonial aspects that point to Christ or the law of ordinances put in place by men and Moses are not in effect. What is still in effect is clearly illuminated in the decalogue.

I appreciate your religious predilections and understand the doctrines of the World Wide Church of God, who still keep the festivals, but it states clearly we are not to judge others regarding them. I do not judge you.

achysklic
06-18-2011, 17:17
Collosians 2:16-23, " <SUP>16</SUP> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. <SUP id=en-NIV-29512 class=versenum>17</SUP> These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. <SUP id=en-NIV-29513 class=versenum>18</SUP> Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. <SUP id=en-NIV-29514 class=versenum>19</SUP> They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
<SUP id=en-NIV-29515 class=versenum>20</SUP> Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: <SUP id=en-NIV-29516 class=versenum>21</SUP> “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? <SUP id=en-NIV-29517 class=versenum>22</SUP> These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. <SUP id=en-NIV-29518 class=versenum>23</SUP> Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

So, the law of ordinances and feast days are no longer required. You are right _THE_ Sabbath day is still in effect as it has been from the foundation of the world, but the special Sabbath festivals, New Moon celebrations, are no longer required. The ceremonial aspects that point to Christ or the law of ordinances put in place by men and Moses are not in effect. What is still in effect is clearly illuminated in the decalogue.

I appreciate your religious predilections and understand the doctrines of the World Wide Church of God, who still keep the festivals, but it states clearly we are not to judge others regarding them. I do not judge you.

I am in no way affiliated with WWCG. I follow the teachin gs of Jesus only.

I am not judging SDA, but to say we keep the weekly Sabbath and ignore Gods other Sabbaths is strange to me. Kinda fence riding so to speak.

I agree with alot of the things you and Vic say...I have great respect for you guys. I am just confused as to why you only adhear to part of Gods laws?

Brasso
06-18-2011, 17:52
The Law that was given for transgression wasn't the Torah. It was the Mosaic Covenant, to include the Tabernacle Law. The first time Moses went up to the Mountain he only received the Torah. The second time he received the Law of the Tabernacle.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

It was the sacrifices and burnt offerings that were added.

The Torah, including the ordinances, are forever for all Israel. If you believe in Messiah, you ARE Israel.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

jjboogie
06-18-2011, 19:55
Are you serious?

Are you? ;-)

THEY ARE GODS FEASTS not the Israelites. (or the jews as you put it) (BTW not all Israelites are jews)

Same difference to me and I know not all Israelites are Jews however all Israelites are Israelites and that was my point.



If they were no longer to keep Gods Holy Days( not the jews) This would have been the perfect time to give a sermon on not no longer keeping them wouldn't it?

Perfect time? Actually just the opposite! What better way to turn people off right off the bat!

This is about Jesus! Besides I did not say they were no longer to keep God's Holy Days but that they were no longer a requirement in order to have a covenant relationship with God! That's the context!

But oh wait, no sermon was EVER given, no command was EVER recorded in the new test was it?

Sure there was!

In fact read on a few chapters in acts and you will see the early church keeping the other Holy Days of God.....Strange huh?

Not strange at all! Much expected from faithful Jews of the time! Plus see my earlier point on Holy Days.

Man cannot change God, for God to change there has to be a command given, also Jesus kept all the Holy Days ( since He gave them) and Paul stated he did everything Jesus did. If Paul didn't I wouldn't believe a word he said!


Plenty of commands given by Paul.

Of course Jesus kept them! Jesus was a faithful obedient Jew under the Old Covenant!

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 00:14
Vic better read the prophecy concerning the feast of tabernacles again it's not a one time thing, it happen once a yr every yr.



The tabernacle was cleansed once a year also. The heavenly sanctuary only gets cleansed once.

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 00:25
Ok one last quick question for you Vic.

If Gods Holy Days were only part of the old cov. The why was the early church keeping the Day of Pentecost when God gave the Holy Spirit to mankind?

Excellent question.
The early Church contained both circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles. It is an obligation for circumcised to keep all of the book of the law. It is not an obligation for those uncircumcised to keep all of the book of the law.

Paul said that Gentile converts were not to be circumcised and circumcised Jews were not to give up their circumcision.

I Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

You really need to stop being so biased and look for truth in the Word. If the Word said that I should be circumcised I would do it. If the Word said that I should keep the feast days I would do it. An honest look at scripture says that the feast days are not an obligation for a Gentile like me.

achysklic
06-19-2011, 03:39
Excellent question.
The early Church contained both circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles. It is an obligation for circumcised to keep all of the book of the law. It is not an obligation for those uncircumcised to keep all of the book of the law.

Paul said that Gentile converts were not to be circumcised and circumcised Jews were not to give up their circumcision.

I Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

You really need to stop being so biased and look for truth in the Word. If the Word said that I should be circumcised I would do it. If the Word said that I should keep the feast days I would do it. An honest look at scripture says that the feast days are not an obligation for a Gentile like me.

Vic how is it biased to believe only what the bible teaches?

Funny the word does say you need to be circumcised, it says you have to have circumcision of the heart now.(maybe thats the problem)

As for Paul let's look at a few things ok

Although some of his writings were difficult to understand, even by his contemporaries (2 peter 3:15-16) Paul's explicit statements and actions contradict any notion that he annulled or abolished observance of these Holy Days.

In,1 cor 11:1-2 for example, Paul told his followers, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ," and, "Keep the traditions as I delivered them to you.

If Paul's practice had not been to observe the feast days God had instituted, his comments to the Jews and gentiles in Corinth would have been meaningless. Clearly, evidence is lacking that Paul ever discouraged anyone from keeping the annual festivals; such a notion would have been unthinkable for him (Acts 24:12-14, 25:7-8, 28:17)

Paul and all the apostles taught a consistent message of the Christian's obligation to follow the example of Jesus Christ in all matters. The apostle John, who wrote near the close of the first century, summed up this message: "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" (1john 2:6)

Brasso
06-19-2011, 09:02
To remain either circumcised or uncircumcised has nothing to do with the Law. It was an idiom, and it meant the exact same thing as the decision in Acts regarding gentiles. They did not need to go through the conversion rituals for Judaism. And the did not have to stop being Jews. There is now one Law for both Jew and Gentile. A new covenant that did not require rituals. Just belief.

achysklic
06-19-2011, 09:21
To put it in a nutshell, circumcision of the heart is 'holiness.' It implies being cleansed from sin … "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). As a consequence, the believer has the virtues of Christ, and aims to fulfil the text which says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

The circumcised of heart have godly love. This is the fulfilment of the ROYAL LAW … "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). We are to cleave to the Lord and make Him our one desire, but it is not possible to love God if we detest others. This commandment should affect our every thought, word and deed.

There will always be those who think they will obtain the promise without dealing faithfully with God. These blasphemers persuade themselves that they are guiltless. Such a vain hope! Every child of Adam must come by the "strait gate" (Matthew 7:13), "take up his cross" (Matthew 16:24), and be "sanctified" (1 Corinthians 6:11) to win the prize.
True circumcision of heart requires that we "present" our bodies as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1). Such a sacrifice must be continuously offered upon the flames of holy love.

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 10:03
Vic how is it biased to believe only what the bible teaches?



Just like anyone else who isn't looking at the whole picture, bias is the result.

The types of Christ have met their fulfillment. Continuing them as an obligation diminishes the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. We are not pleasing God when we continue to think that we must do this or that ceremony to please Him.

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 10:15
In,1 cor 11:1-2 for example, Paul told his followers, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ," and, "Keep the traditions as I delivered them to you.

If Paul's practice had not been to observe the feast days God had instituted, his comments to the Jews and gentiles in Corinth would have been meaningless. Clearly, evidence is lacking that Paul ever discouraged anyone from keeping the annual festivals; such a notion would have been unthinkable for him (Acts 24:12-14, 25:7-8, 28:17)



Paul specifically pointed out that the Gentiles were not to be circumcised in the flesh or to keep the ordinances written by Moses in the Book of the Law.
Are you ignoring this fact?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Feast days are not an obligation.
BTW Did you go to Jerusalem to observe Pentecost?

achysklic
06-19-2011, 10:38
Paul specifically pointed out that the Gentiles were not to be circumcised in the flesh or to keep the ordinances written by Moses in the Book of the Law.
Are you ignoring this fact?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Feast days are not an obligation.
BTW Did you go to Jerusalem to observe Pentecost?

Will address the rest of your post in abit gotta run, However if you would like I will show you where only the Jews have to keep Pentecost in Jerusalem.. Deep subject but I will explain it to you if you are willing to accept it if the Bible teaches it.

Deal?

I ask you to go up and read what I post I have addressed what you say, I just hate repeating everything.

Brasso
06-19-2011, 11:06
Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the emissaries and elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from among them to Antioch with Sha’ul and Barnaḇah: Yehuḏah being called Barsabba, and Sila, leading men among the brothers,


Why does this part always get left out? Those 4 laws were hardly inclusive. If that's all there is to living a holy life then why did He die? They expected the new believers to learn the commandments. These 4 laws were a starting point. A place where fellowship could occur. It's only after they were told the new believers would eventually learn the commandments did it "please the brethren".

This part is pretty clear. Not one jot or tittle. The least of the commandments is still expected to be kept.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 13:19
Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the emissaries and elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from among them to Antioch with Sha’ul and Barnaḇah: Yehuḏah being called Barsabba, and Sila, leading men among the brothers,


Why does this part always get left out? Those 4 laws were hardly inclusive. If that's all there is to living a holy life then why did He die? They expected the new believers to learn the commandments. These 4 laws were a starting point. A place where fellowship could occur. It's only after they were told the new believers would eventually learn the commandments did it "please the brethren".

This part is pretty clear. Not one jot or tittle. The least of the commandments is still expected to be kept.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Not one jot or tittle of what? It seems you missed which commandments Jesus was referring to. Here is the text where Jesus points to which commandments are essential to eternal life. The one thing lacking was love of God.

Matthew 19:16-19 And behold, one came and said unto Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And He said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto Him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

achysklic
06-19-2011, 15:45
Not one jot or tittle of what? It seems you missed which commandments Jesus was referring to. Here is the text where Jesus points to which commandments are essential to eternal life. The one thing lacking was love of God.

Matthew 19:16-19 And behold, one came and said unto Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And He said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto Him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws. The 2 greatest commandment hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Vic may I ask what is in the OT the law and prophets?

I just don't understand why you keep Gods Sabbath and ignore His laws.

jjboogie
06-19-2011, 15:48
All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws.


Where is the passage that teaches this?


The law of Moses is what was ended. Except that which was explicitly reinstated by Jesus in the NT.

Brasso
06-19-2011, 16:17
Not one jot or tittle of what?

The what is the two sentences preceeding:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.

The law of Moses is what was ended.

Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer.

The Law never ended. Messiah says as much in the passages I posted above. What ended was the Mosaic Covenant. The Torah is now written on our hearts.

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה.
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

The Book of the Law was a witness because if you broke one of those laws you in fact broke one of the 10, which in turn is breaking one of the two great commandments. Messiah didn't take the Book of the Law out of the way in that He did away with it. He took it out of the way in that it could no longer condemn us. Our sins are forgiven. This does not in any way mean it isn't still the standard for righteous living. Paul calls it Holy, Righteous, Good, and Spirtiual. Only able to be properly kept with the Spirit He gave us, writing His Torah on our hearts so that we want to do them and apply them correctly.

achysklic
06-19-2011, 17:04
Where is the passage that teaches this?


The law of Moses is what was ended. Except that which was explicitly reinstated by Jesus in the NT.

If you like I can go into great detail and spend much time teaching you about God and His commands. As of right now you don't know the difference between Mosiac code and Gods commandments. If you are truely sincere and want the truth and are willing to learn then by all means I will put the effort into it. If you are not then by all means continue in your lawlessness.

May I ask you though are you without sin?

1john 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law......(No law no sin)

If you only keep the 10 commandments and reject the rest of Gods law I have to ask, why?

Here is a hint Jesus was the word of the OT, He was the creator, He gave all the commands. Al the Sabbaths are His, this is why He said He is Lord of the Sabbath! So in other words Jesus gave the Old cov. He also gave the New conv. Did Jesus ever not keep any of the commandments up to His death?

Or in other words.He was the One who gave the Holy Days to Israel (Lev. 23). He was the YHWH, or God of Israel (I Cor. 10:4), made flesh. He was the Word who was God, who became flesh (John 1:1-4, 14). He was only doing what He Himself told Israel to do centuries earlier.

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 18:01
All Gods commandments are essential to eternal life. Jesus death only ended the sacrifical laws. The 2 greatest commandment hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Vic may I ask what is in the OT the law and prophets?

I just don't understand why you keep Gods Sabbath and ignore His laws.

The Seventh day Sabbath was from creation and honors God for what he has done in creating and redeeming us.

The Ten commandments are the moral law. That was kept seperate from the Book of the Law written by Moses.
The Book of the Law had all the services and feast days in it. It was put in a pocket outside the ark. The Ten Commandments written by the finger of God were inside the ark.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice this text is referring to the handwritten law of Moses. These holy days are not now an obligation.

Colossians 2:14,16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....................... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

jjboogie
06-19-2011, 18:04
If you like I can go into great detail and spend much time teaching you about God and His commands. As of right now you don't know the difference between Mosiac code and Gods commandments. If you are truely sincere and want the truth and are willing to learn then by all means I will put the effort into it. If you are not then by all means continue in your lawlessness.

May I ask you though are you without sin?

1john 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law......(No law no sin)

If you only keep the 10 commandments and reject the rest of Gods law I have to ask, why?

Here is a hint Jesus was the word of the OT, He was the creator, He gave all the commands. Al the Sabbaths are His, this is why He said He is Lord of the Sabbath! So in other words Jesus gave the Old cov. He also gave the New conv. Did Jesus ever not keep any of the commandments up to His death?

Or in other words.He was the One who gave the Holy Days to Israel (Lev. 23). He was the YHWH, or God of Israel (I Cor. 10:4), made flesh. He was the Word who was God, who became flesh (John 1:1-4, 14). He was only doing what He Himself told Israel to do centuries earlier.


I wouldn't waste my time with this conversation if I wasn't interested in truth. If there is something about the bible I don't know of I want to learn however it is my understanding that there is no difference between the Mosaic law otherwise known as the Law and God's commandments. They are all considered the same.

Make your case but please be brief about each point. I can't stand when folks post enough words to make up a 3,000 page book in one post! LOL

Brasso
06-19-2011, 18:36
Colossians 2:14,16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....................... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This says nothing of the Law. It is speaking of sin. Nothing more. And all these Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come. To come. Also, the "is" at the end was added. Leave it out and it makes much more sense.

jjboogie
06-19-2011, 22:09
This says nothing of the Law. It is speaking of sin. Nothing more. And all these Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come. To come. Also, the "is" at the end was added. Leave it out and it makes much more sense.


What was Paul speaking about then?

Vic Hays
06-19-2011, 22:15
This says nothing of the Law. It is speaking of sin. Nothing more. And all these Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come. To come. Also, the "is" at the end was added. Leave it out and it makes much more sense.

It is hard to understand your denial. What does this sentence mean to you? What are the ordinances to you? Are they sin? What does it mean to blot out?

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us"

achysklic
06-20-2011, 03:40
The Seventh day Sabbath was from creation and honors God for what he has done in creating and redeeming us.

The Ten commandments are the moral law. That was kept seperate from the Book of the Law written by Moses.
The Book of the Law had all the services and feast days in it. It was put in a pocket outside the ark. The Ten Commandments written by the finger of God were inside the ark.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice this text is referring to the handwritten law of Moses. These holy days are not now an obligation.

Colossians 2:14,16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....................... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

It’s surprising, but one of the main “proofs” used by some to “knock in the head” the Sabbath and Holy Days is Colossians 2:16. This “proof text,” when viewed in context, instead of proving that they were “done away” proves that a gentile church (at Colosse) actually kept the Holy Days!
Notice the key verses: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17).
Paul does not here say, “Do not keep Holy Days or Sabbaths,” though that is what many people read into the text.
To start with, he warns them not to let a man judge them concerning the matters he then mentions. If they were not to let any man judge them in these matters, who was supposed to judge?
The answer is somewhat obscured by an added word in verse 17. This word, in the King James Version, is indicated by the italic type, meaning that there is no equivalent word in the Greek, but that the word was added by the translators in the hope that the passage would be more clear in English. In this case, though, it obscures the point.
Here is the specific phrase: “But the body is of Christ.” This should read “But the body of Christ.”
Here simply, is what Paul is saying in these two verses: “Don’t let any man judge you … but let the Body of Christ judge you.”

achysklic
06-20-2011, 03:45
The Seventh day Sabbath was from creation and honors God for what he has done in creating and redeeming us.

The Ten commandments are the moral law. That was kept seperate from the Book of the Law written by Moses.
The Book of the Law had all the services and feast days in it. It was put in a pocket outside the ark. The Ten Commandments written by the finger of God were inside the ark.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

.

Vic you are confusing Mosaic code with Gods commands, Mosaic code isn't in question here.

So I ask again, On the 2 greatest commandments hang "ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS"
Vic please tell me what is the law and prophets Jesus was referring to in the OT?

Also Vic do you think God only Taught Adam to keep the Sabbath at creation? God wrote all His laws on Adams heart! He walked with Adam every day in the garden teaching him. Why do you think cains offering was rejected by God?

So just don't pick one of Gods commands given at creation and reject His other laws.

Brasso
06-20-2011, 05:52
It is hard to understand your denial. What does this sentence mean to you? What are the ordinances to you? Are they sin? What does it mean to blot out?

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us"

It's our sin. This is what He nailed to His stake. Along with the chirographon (written list of violations) that was nailed to His own stake. "King of the Jews". If He wanted to say the Torah was nailed to His cross, don't you think Paul would have just said Torah instead of chirographon trois dogmasin? The word Law isn't anywhere in the entire book. And His commandments certainly aren't dogma. John calls sin violation of the Torah. Paul calls it holy, righteous, good, and spiritual. Messiah says that not one jot or tittle will pass from it and that anyone who teaches against even the least of the commands will be least in the Kingdom. Does this sound like it's gone?

I'm still confused as to how people think YHWH gave Israel a bunch of commandments to keep, that He counted as sin against them if they didn't, when He intended to do away with them anyway? Do people think it was some kind of cruel joke?

Vic Hays
06-20-2011, 08:34
Vic you are confusing Mosaic code with Gods commands, Mosaic code isn't in question here.

So I ask again, On the 2 greatest commandments hang "ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS"
Vic please tell me what is the law and prophets Jesus was referring to in the OT?

Also Vic do you think God only Taught Adam to keep the Sabbath at creation? God wrote all His laws on Adams heart! He walked with Adam every day in the garden teaching him. Why do you think cains offering was rejected by God?

So just don't pick one of Gods commands given at creation and reject His other laws.

Types no longer are required since the reality has arrived 2000 years ago. Holy days and sabbaths are include in what was taken away.

Fulfillment of the New Covenant over the Old Covenant made the Old Covenant Obsolete.

Not judging according to Holy days, sabbaths, and meat and drink, means that these things have been done away with in the New Covenant.

God did not make a bunch of rules and rituals without meaning. What is the meaning of Pentecost?

First fruits offering?

What does this mean concerning the Church?

Brasso
06-20-2011, 09:45
Colossians 2:14,16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross....................... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This passage tells us not to let man judge us in keeping these days. Only the Body of Messiah. It infers we will be keeping them. In context it's about these former non believers not letting the world judge them for keeping them, in contrast to the pagan festivals, etc. I don't see how this supports what you're saying.

achysklic
06-20-2011, 10:46
What does this mean concerning the Church?

Awesome question Vic....actually each and everyone of the Holy Days pics Gods plan for mankind, starting at Passover.

Pentecost pics Jesus coming and gathering His church at the first resurrection.

I urge you to download the pdf of this book. It explains Gods Holy Days and there meaning better than any other book I have found.

http://www.cbcg.org/ebooks.html

Vic Hays
06-20-2011, 16:43
Awesome question Vic....actually each and everyone of the Holy Days pics Gods plan for mankind, starting at Passover.

Pentecost pics Jesus coming and gathering His church at the first resurrection.

I urge you to download the pdf of this book. It explains Gods Holy Days and there meaning better than any other book I have found.

http://www.cbcg.org/ebooks.html

I disagree with you unless you mean the resurrection of Jesus.

II Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

I am not against Christians keeping Pentecost, just that it is not an obligation for an uncircumcised Gentile.

achysklic
06-20-2011, 17:05
I disagree with you unless you mean the resurrection of Jesus.

II Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

I am not against Christians keeping Pentecost, just that it is not an obligation for an uncircumcised Gentile.

That ok Vic, but There is no way Pentecost could pic Jesus resurrection though.

Go ahead dl that book I posted the link to. I promise you every question you have about the Holy Days is addressed with Gods word.

What do you have to lose?

Also to help you understand About Pentecost, you asked previously how I kept Pentecost, well part of it was having a Holy Conv. "a service" So I am posting here for you the exact sermon I had on the Day Of Pentecost.

Enjoy

http://www.cbcg.org/feasts_holydays/pentecost/pentecost2011_50.htm

Brasso
06-20-2011, 22:30
If Pentacost was the beginning of the "NT Church", (which makes no sense to me), how can it not be a NT Holy Day? And if i is, and I don't know of a church that doesn't celebrate it, what does that say about the other days? Obviously they too should be kept. The Apostles certainly kept them. And if they should be kept, what does that say about the other commandments of the "Old Testament"? Where do you draw the line? More than the 10 Commandments, but less than the whole Torah?

Perhaps it would be best to figure out what part of the Mosaic Covenant was ended. And luckily, the Bible tells us. It was the sacrificial system. Nothing else.

jjboogie
06-20-2011, 23:16
Perhaps it would be best to figure out what part of the Mosaic Covenant was ended. And luckily, the Bible tells us. It was the sacrificial system. Nothing else.


Where does the bible teach that only the sacrificial system was ended?

achysklic
06-21-2011, 03:12
Where does the bible teach that only the sacrificial system was ended?

Because Jesus was the lamb of God, His death paid the penalty, hense sacrifices ended, nothing else.

Brasso
06-21-2011, 07:29
Where does the bible teach that only the sacrificial system was ended?

Where does the Bible teach that anything else but that was ended? It doesn't.

Because the Covenant is based on the Torah, Messiah, being written on out hearts. Jer 31. The only part of the Mosaic Covenant that didn't include the sacrifices was the Torah. The Tabernacle was added because of transgression. That second trip up the mountain that Moses made? Then God said, "Behold, I make a new covenant"? The first time all he got was the Torah. Everything else stays the same. "...not one jot or tittle". Which is why the correct translation is actually Renewed Covenant, not New Covenant.

jjboogie
06-21-2011, 08:06
Where does the Bible teach that anything else but that was ended? It doesn't.

Because the Covenant is based on the Torah, Messiah, being written on out hearts. Jer 31. The only part of the Mosaic Covenant that didn't include the sacrifices was the Torah. The Tabernacle was added because of transgression. That second trip up the mountain that Moses made? Then God said, "Behold, I make a new covenant"? The first time all he got was the Torah. Everything else stays the same. "...not one jot or tittle". Which is why the correct translation is actually Renewed Covenant, not New Covenant.


Is the Torah the Law of the Lord and the Commandments?

achysklic
06-21-2011, 08:28
Is the Torah the Law of the Lord and the Commandments?


The Old test (Torah) Is set up in 3 divisions
Divions 1 is called the Law
It consists of
Gen
Ex.
Lev
Numbers
Duet.

Divsion 2 is called The Prophets
It consist of
The former prophets
Joshua
Judges
The Book of Kingdoms
1&2 Samuel
1&2 Kings

The latter of the Major Prophets
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel

The Minor Prophets
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

Division 3 The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Songs of Solomon
Ruth
Lamentations
ECCL.
Ezra/ Nehemiah
1&2 Chronicles

So when Jesus on the 2 greatest commandments hangs all the LAW AND PROPHETS, He was referring to the first 2 divisions of the OT or Torah.

If you don't understand How God gave His laws you can't understand how or why to keep them.

jjboogie
06-21-2011, 08:58
The Old test (Torah) Is set up in 3 divisions
Divions 1 is called the Law
It consists of
Gen
Ex.
Lev
Numbers
Duet.

Divsion 2 is called The Prophets
It consist of
The former prophets
Joshua
Judges
The Book of Kingdoms
1&2 Samuel
1&2 Kings

The latter of the Major Prophets
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel

The Minor Prophets
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

Division 3 The Writings

Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Songs of Solomon
Ruth
Lamentations
ECCL.
Ezra/ Nehemiah
1&2 Chronicles

So when Jesus on the 2 greatest commandments hangs all the LAW AND PROPHETS, He was referring to the first 2 divisions of the OT or Torah.

If you don't understand How God gave His laws you can't understand how or why to keep them.



How come the NT never makes distinctions between the divisions of the law except the law and the prophets?

Brasso
06-21-2011, 09:26
There is no division of the Law. The TeNaK, which stands for Torah, Navim (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings) was the only book there was. When they refrence the Torah, it's usually an inclusive phrase. It's a division of the types of books, not a divsion of the Law iteself. The traditional order of the Books in the Tenach, or Old Testament, is not the same as Christian Bibles. They are ordered differently.

jjboogie
06-21-2011, 10:15
There is no division of the Law. The TeNaK, which stands for Torah, Navim (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings) was the only book there was. When they refrence the Torah, it's usually an inclusive phrase. It's a division of the types of books, not a divsion of the Law iteself. The traditional order of the Books in the Tenach, or Old Testament, is not the same as Christian Bibles. They are ordered differently.


I'm aware of the order being different.


Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?

ArtificialGrape
06-21-2011, 10:40
Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?

The burden would be on demonstrating that the requirements had been lifted.

If God hands down a law, the expectation must be that it stays in effect until you can demonstrate that it was rescinded.

If God tells you that murder and adultery are forbidden, are you requiring Him to tell you that, "BTW, murder and adultery are still forbidden"?

Unless, I guess, there was some sort of sunset clause. :cool:

achysklic
06-21-2011, 10:43
I'm aware of the order being different.


Where does the NT teach that we are supposed to continue to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days?


Don't take this wrong, but a better question would be where in the NT does it command not to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days.

See God commanded us to Keep the Sabbath and His Holy Days. In order not to keep them there has to be a command to stop.

So unless there is a command to stop we are to keep observing them.

By asking for a NT command on keeping them you are telling God His commands were'nt good enough to last!

jjboogie
06-21-2011, 11:07
Don't take this wrong, but a better question would be where in the NT does it command not to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days.

See God commanded us to Keep the Sabbath and His Holy Days. In order not to keep them there has to be a command to stop.

So unless there is a command to stop we are to keep observing them.

By asking for a NT command on keeping them you are telling God His commands were'nt good enough to last!



God did not command Christians to keep the Sabbath. It was a covenant between God and Israel... Exodus 31:17, Ezekiel 20:12

Those laws were there to separate Jews from non-Jews.

There are no commands by Jesus or the apostles to Christians to observe the Sabbath or Pentecost or any other Jewish Holy day.


Hebrews 9:15-17 shows us that the New Covenant -- a covenant is a will or testament -- superseded the Old Covenant. Just as two wills cannot be in effect at the same time so there was no overlap between the two testaments. Some parts of the Old Testament are carried over into the New Testament the heart of the Law like the heart of God was unchanged (Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:37-40). Colossians 2:13-14 definitely shows that the law was nailed to the Cross and the specific commandments that went with it were also nullified.

Brasso
06-21-2011, 11:32
God did not command Christians to keep the Sabbath. It was a covenant between God and Israel... Exodus 31:17, Ezekiel 20:12

Couple of things wrong with that:
1. That as a believer in Messiah you aren't Israel. You are.
2. God never commanded Christians to do anything. He deals only with Israel. Messiah came only for the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. He's the Jewish Messiah. This goes along with #1.
3. The Sabbath existed long before Moses.
4. He came to bring a New Covenant to Israel, i.e. the Jews. Did He really have to tell them to keep keeping the Sabbath? He certainly never told them to stop, which is nice, since He already said it was forever.

Hebrews 9:15-17 shows us that the New Covenant -- a covenant is a will or testament -- superseded the Old Covenant. Just as two wills cannot be in effect at the same time so there was no overlap between the two testaments. Some parts of the Old Testament are carried over into the New Testament the heart of the Law like the heart of God was unchanged (Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:37-40).

Perhaps you meant to say Covenant here instead of Testament. I hope so or you are really more confused than I thought. Yes, the Mosaic Covenant is gone. So what is the New Covenant? Jer 31 He writes His Torah on our hearts. Pretty simple. As explained above the only difference between the two covenants is the administration and sacrifices, which Messiah has taken over as the MelechZadok Priest instead of the Levite.

Colossians 2:13-14 definitely shows that the law was nailed to the Cross and the specific commandments that went with it were also nullified.

The Greek word for Torah/Law is nomos. I dare you find that word anywhere in the entire book of Colossians. The words translated into english as law and ordinances are "chirographon trois dogmasin". Literally, a writen list of violations, or rules. This is exactly what was nailed to His stake. Our sins. Just as His chirographon, "King of the Jews", was nailed to it.

There really is only One Law for Israel. It's been since the beginning and it will continue to be until heaven and earth pass away. Just like Messiah said in Mathew 5.

Let's compare some Scripture....

Deu 30:19 “I have called the heavens and the earth as witnesses today against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore you shall choose life, so that you live, both you and your seed,

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Interesting? No? Take from it what you will.

Snapper2
06-21-2011, 19:22
Our ability to hear God died in the garden. God then prophesied that the Seed would crush the head of what caused death in the first place. Until that time He put us under a "school master" and taught what faith was. Everything taught pointed to this Seed and it was only about Him and how to get ready for Him. When sin arose a sign was given and all who were bitten looked upon it were spared by lifting it up (only by faith). But then they used this image as an idol and saviour(serpent) and God wasnt pleased. Days and ceremonies pointed to Him also.But since the Seed has already crushed the head of the serpent( at the cross) and gave us again the ability to commune with God through Him only, why do we remember things that have already come to past as if they havent, or have but need a little help? First we have to admit we died in the garden so the Spirit can give us His life through faith in Jesus.

jjboogie
06-21-2011, 19:43
Couple of things wrong with that:
1. That as a believer in Messiah you aren't Israel.

Yes figuratively not literally.


Israel the way Paul uses it in Romans is speaking of a descendant of Jacob.

A true Jew or true Israelite was a physical Jew who believed in Jesus the Messiah.




3. The Sabbath existed long before Moses.


Existing and being commanded to observe are two different things and it wasn't commanded to be observed until Sinai!






Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
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Interesting? No? Take from it what you will.


Jesus fulfills the law (v.17). He does not destroy it. Even though the law (Torah) is not the law of God for us, it is still the word of God for us, and we have much to learn from studying it!

Brasso
06-21-2011, 21:55
Yes figuratively not literally.


No. It's quite literal.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

We ARE Israel. Everything says so.

Isa 56:3 “And let not the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ ”
Isa 56:4 For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and hold fast to My covenant:
Isa 56:5 to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off.

Face it. You ARE an Israelite. Literally.

Existing and being commanded to observe are two different things and it wasn't commanded to be observed until Sinai!

So what did Abraham keep that was never commanded?

Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching

Jesus fulfills the law (v.17). He does not destroy it.

Well which is it? Does what you said actually make sense to you? What part of the least commandment don't you understand?

When you enter the New Jerusalem which gate are you going to enter through? The one that says Christian?

jjboogie
06-22-2011, 14:55
No. It's quite literal.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ĕl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.


Ephesians doesn't say that now those in Christ are literal Israelites.

The point is through Christ's redeeming blood they have come into the presence of God. Christ's death obliterated the distinction between Jew and Gentile. See Matthew 27:51; Colossians 2:13-14.




So what did Abraham keep that was never commanded?

Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching


God commanded Abraham of many things before the Law was given at Sinai. Doesn't mean it was the same set of laws.

Genesis 26 does not say torah!

Brasso
06-22-2011, 16:07
Ephesians doesn't say that now those in Christ are literal Israelites.

How else can you read it?

We were once excluded from the citizenship of Israel. Now we're not. Doesn't that mean we now are a citizen?
We were once strangers from the covenant/s/ of promise. Now we're not.

The Torah says that once you're circumcized that you are to be treated as a native born Israelite. That anyone joining themselves to Israel is to follow the same Laws.

I don't see how you can infer anything else.

God commanded Abraham of many things before the Law was given at Sinai. Doesn't mean it was the same set of laws.


Now you're grasping at air.

Did you read the passages above about God calling heaven and earth as witnesses against them? That means just what Messiah said. As long as heaven and earth exist, those laws exist. And if there's only one Law for both Jew and Gentile, and the Jews are required to continue in those laws, then Gentiles must also. Simple deduction.

jjboogie
06-22-2011, 16:25
How else can you read it?

We were once excluded from the citizenship of Israel. Now we're not. Doesn't that mean we now are a citizen?


The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.



Did you read the passages above about God calling heaven and earth as witnesses against them? That means just what Messiah said. As long as heaven and earth exist, those laws exist. And if there's only one Law for both Jew and Gentile, and the Jews are required to continue in those laws, then Gentiles must also. Simple deduction.

The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!

achysklic
06-22-2011, 18:08
The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.




The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!

1 John 3:4 states: “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Hebrews 1:9 reveals Jesus Christ hates lawlessness: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.”

Bottom line jjboogie, I would be very careful in teaching and practicing lawlessness!

One more final thought:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Paul prophesied about the secret power of lawlessness that will prepare the world for the coming of the Antichrist: “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” In Matthew 24:12, Jesus says lawlessness in the world will be one of the signs of His Second Coming.

jjboogie
06-22-2011, 20:24
1 John 3:4 states: “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Hebrews 1:9 reveals Jesus Christ hates lawlessness: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.”

Bottom line jjboogie, I would be very careful in teaching and practicing lawlessness!

One more final thought:

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Paul prophesied about the secret power of lawlessness that will prepare the world for the coming of the Antichrist: “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” In Matthew 24:12, Jesus says lawlessness in the world will be one of the signs of His Second Coming.



Who said anything about lawlessness?

Brasso
06-22-2011, 21:07
The use of this expression shows that Paul was thinking of the commonwealth of the new Israel, the spiritual Israel, which is the church, which is not exclusively the possession of any race or class of people. The spiritual Israel the body of Christ is completely different than the OT Physical Israel.


I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. If the Gentiles were once separated from the covenants, then who was a part of them? The Jews. And there is only One Torah. And if there is only one Law for Jew and Gentile, and the Jews have to keep the Torah, then the Torah is the Law for both.

The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!

You just made that up. The Bible doesn't say this. YHWH said the heaven and earth were a witness. They both still exist. Yeshua said that nothing, not one jot or tittle, from the Torah would pass until heaven and earth did. There's you two witnesses. Literally. You can't just make up excuses because you don't like it.

jjboogie
06-22-2011, 21:54
I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. If the Gentiles were once separated from the covenants, then who was a part of them? The Jews. And there is only One Torah. And if there is only one Law for Jew and Gentile, and the Jews have to keep the Torah, then the Torah is the Law for both.



You just made that up. The Bible doesn't say this. YHWH said the heaven and earth were a witness. They both still exist. Yeshua said that nothing, not one jot or tittle, from the Torah would pass until heaven and earth did. There's you two witnesses. Literally. You can't just make up excuses because you don't like it.


Read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10

achysklic
06-23-2011, 03:10
Who said anything about lawlessness?

I am sorry, I didn't realize you kept the Sabbath.

For I thought for sure you were saying we no longer have to which is LAWLESSNESS!

Brasso
06-23-2011, 08:34
The laws exist only as long as the covenant exists. The old covenant is gone! That is why it's called the old and we now have the new!

Hebrews is speaking of the Covenant. Not the Torah.


You obviously don't want to know at this point. One day a light bulb is going to come on somewhere inside you and you're going to remember this.

jjboogie
06-23-2011, 08:46
I am sorry, I didn't realize you kept the Sabbath.

For I thought for sure you were saying we no longer have to which is LAWLESSNESS!


You stone your children to death when they are rebellious?

If not you practice lawlessness!

Brasso
06-23-2011, 09:07
I understand that you (most Christians) are having a hard time understanding this. You've been programmed to believe a certain way. But it's really not that hard.

Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.

Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet. The Torah isn't the Law of the Land. It's the Law of our hearts. We don't stone people. Besides which, there is a HUGE difference between the individual and state. One is a believer, the other is not.

However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.

achysklic
06-23-2011, 09:25
You stone your children to death when they are rebellious?

If not you practice lawlessness!


You really don't understand Gods commandments, why don't you actually do a study on God, His laws, His statues, His ordinances. What applies to Israel past and present.

If you do this you will see how misinformed you are.

If you have questions or need some help finding things I will be glad to help as I am sure Brasso also. :)

FifthFreedom
06-23-2011, 11:17
If you have questions or need some help finding things I will be glad to help as I am sure Brasso also. :)


...............And they will provide a link to a website where they do all of their "studying" :rofl:

Brasso
06-23-2011, 12:28
Just as I've done in this thread already?

ArtificialGrape
06-23-2011, 14:37
I understand that you (most Christians) are having a hard time understanding this. You've been programmed to believe a certain way. But it's really not that hard.

Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.

Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet. The Torah isn't the Law of the Land. It's the Law of our hearts. We don't stone people. Besides which, there is a HUGE difference between the individual and state. One is a believer, the other is not.

However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:
Disrespecful children
Homosexuals
Witches
Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
People who work on the Sabbath
or has the morality changed?

-ArtificialGrape

jjboogie
06-23-2011, 17:21
Under the Old Covenant Israel was a kingdom. The Torah was not only commandments, it was the Law of the Land. Much like our own laws in this country.

Wholeheartedly agree and am aware of that.

Under the New Covenant, there is no kingdom yet.

totally disagree! Saying there's no kingdom is saying Jesus is not King! God's kingdom is God's rule. That's what kingdom means biblically. It means to reign or rule. God is always reigning and always ruling.

The body of Christ...the church is God's kingdom manifest on earth. We are those within God's kingdom who live in a favored state with God.



However, the Bible is clear that when the Kingdom is manifest on earth, the Torah will once again be the Law of the Land.

Now I understand why your theology is skewed.

The kingdom manifest itself every time Jesus, healed someone or raised someone from the dead. Or when he calmed the storm!

The kingdom manifest itself at Pentecost as well.

Just like Israel was a kingdom of God on earth now the body of Christ the church is now.

Brasso
06-23-2011, 19:48
Now I understand why your theology is skewed.


LOL. You haven't posted a single thing you can support with Scripture and my theology is skewed?


totally disagree! Saying there's no kingdom is saying Jesus is not King! God's kingdom is God's rule. That's what kingdom means biblically. It means to reign or rule. God is always reigning and always ruling.

The body of Christ...the church is God's kingdom manifest on earth. We are those within God's kingdom who live in a favored state with God.

You are missing my meaning. Yeshua is not reigning over the whole earth right now from Jerusalem. This is not the thousand year reign. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven isn't happening right now. The knowledge of Him doesn't cover the earth like the seas. Everything you said is true, but His Kingdom hasn't been established over the earth yet.

Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the latter days that the mountain of the House of יהוה is established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach1 us His ways1, and let us walk in His paths1, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah1, and the Word1 of יהוה from Yerushalayim.” Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously.
Isa 2:4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall reprove many peoples. And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither teach battle any more.
Isa 2:5 O house of Yaʽaqoḇ, come and let us walk in the light of יהוה.

Brasso
06-23-2011, 19:49
So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:

Disrespecful children
Homosexuals
Witches
Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
People who work on the Sabbath

or has the morality changed?

No one in Israel will be doing those things, so no punishment will be necessary.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.

jjboogie
06-23-2011, 20:41
You are missing my meaning. Yeshua is not reigning over the whole earth right now from Jerusalem.


If Yeshua isn't reigning over the whole earth then Yeshua isn't reigning at all and is not King.


This is not the thousand year reign.


No it's not the thousand year reign and I do not hold to the view that the thousand year reign is literal. There is nothing at all in the text to take it literally in Revelation 20.

John is usually old testament language to convey a large number which means totality. It is common Hebraic speech to convey certain thoughts.

Brasso
06-23-2011, 21:17
If Yeshua isn't reigning over the whole earth then Yeshua isn't reigning at all and is not King.


There is a difference between having all authority, and exercising all authority. If you do not believe in a literal reign, be it 1000 years or not, then what do you do with all the passages that speak of it?

There must be a 7th Day rest. Ezekial speaks of it. Isaiah speaks of it. Jeremiah speaks of it. Hosea speaks of it. Micah speaks of it. Heck, all of them speak of it. The entire Bible speaks of it. The very creation itself was made for it.

Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Master, would You at this time restore the reign to Yisra’ĕl?”1 Footnote: 1Lk. 1:33.
Act 1:7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
Act 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Set-apart Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Yerushalayim, and in all Yehuḏah and Shomeron, and to the end of the earth.”
Act 1:9 And having said this, while they were looking on, He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
Act 1:10 And as they were gazing into the heaven as He went up, see, two men stood by them dressed in white,
Act 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galil, why do you stand looking up into the heaven? This same יהושע, who was taken up from you into the heaven, shall come in the same way1 as you saw Him go into the heaven.” Footnote: 1Zech. 14:4.

Zec 14:1 See, a day shall come for יהוה, and your spoil shall be divided in your midst.
Zec 14:2 And I shall gather all the gentiles to battle against Yerushalayim1. And the city shall be taken, the houses plundered, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into exile, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Footnote: 1Joel 3:2, Zeph. 3:8, Rev. 16:14.
Zec 14:3 And יהוה shall go forth, and He shall fight against those gentiles, as He fights in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And in that day His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives, which faces Yerushalayim on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, a very great valley, and half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of My mountain – for the valley of the mountains reaches to Atsal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziyah sovereign of Yehuḏah. And יהוה my Elohim shall come – all the set-apart ones with You.
Zec 14:6 And in that day it shall be: there is no light, it is dark.
Zec 14:7 And it shall be one day which is known to יהוה, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And in that day it shall be that living waters flow from Yerushalayim1, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea, in summer as well as in winter. Footnote: 1Rev. 22:1-2.
Zec 14:9 And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth1. In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one. Footnote: 1Isa. 24:23, Dan. 2:44, Rev. 11:15.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be changed into a desert plain from Geḇa to Rimmon south of Yerushalayim, and she shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Binyamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the winepresses of the sovereign.
Zec 14:11 And they shall dwell in her, and there shall be no more utter destruction1, but Yerushalayim shall be safely inhabited. Footnote: 1Mal. 4:6.
Zec 14:12 And this is the plague with which יהוה plagues all the people who fought against Yerushalayim: their flesh shall decay while they stand on their feet, and their eyes decay in their sockets, and their tongues decay in their mouths.
Zec 14:13 And it shall be in that day that a great confusion from יהוה is among them, and everyone of them shall seize the hand of his neighbour, and his hand rise up against his neighbour’s hand.
Zec 14:14 And Yehuḏah shall fight at Yerushalayim as well. And the wealth of all the gentiles round about shall be gathered together: gold, and silver, and garments in great quantities.
Zec 14:15 So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall be that all who are left from all the gentiles which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the gentiles who do not come up to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:19 This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the gentiles that do not come up to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:20 In that day “SET-APART TO יהוה” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who slaughter shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.

jjboogie
06-23-2011, 21:30
There is a difference between having all authority, and exercising all authority. If you do not believe in a literal reign, be it 1000 years or not, then what do you do with all the passages that speak of it?

There must be a 7th Day rest. Ezekial speaks of it. Isaiah speaks of it. Jeremiah speaks of it. Hosea speaks of it. Micah speaks of it. Heck, all of them speak of it. The entire Bible speaks of it. The very creation itself was made for it.




1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.

Does that makes sense? Can we agree on the biblical usage of 1,000 years?

Foxterriermom
06-23-2011, 23:21
So once the Kingdom is manifest on earth, and the Torah is the Law of the Land, then will the death penalty be imposed upon:

Women who are not virgins on their wedding night
or has the morality changed?


-ArtificialGrape

I've seen this mentioned in this forum on other occassions and would like to know the scripture referrence for this. I've never been able to find any scripture that says this. And if this is the case, then what about men?

I don't mean to derail the thread - just asking for a scripture reference.

Animal Mother
06-23-2011, 23:37
I've seen this mentioned in this forum on other occassions and would like to know the scripture referrence for this. I've never been able to find any scripture that says this. And if this is the case, then what about men?

I don't mean to derail the thread - just asking for a scripture reference. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

ArtificialGrape
06-24-2011, 02:40
No one in Israel will be doing those things, so no punishment will be necessary.

Isa 35:8 And there shall be a highway, and a way, and it shall be called “The Way of Set-apartness1.” The unclean does not pass over it, but it is for those who walk the way, and no fools wander on it. Footnote: 1See Ps. 77:13.
So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.

-ArtificialGrape

achysklic
06-24-2011, 05:15
So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.

-ArtificialGrape

During the 1,000 yr reign Satan is bound.

jjboogie
06-24-2011, 09:12
During the 1,000 yr reign Satan is bound.

1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.

Brasso
06-24-2011, 11:27
Or perhaps the number is real. Peter says that a day with God is as 1000 years. There were 6 days of creation. The 7th Day is a Sabbath. Man was given 6000 years to rule the earth, the 7th Day is the Lords. He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Messiah was born on the 4th day, or 4000 year mark.

On the 2nd day He will revive, and in the 3rd day He will raise us up.

Too many other passages suggesting a literal 1000 year reign and this is just off the top of my head.

jjboogie
06-24-2011, 11:55
Or perhaps the number is real. Peter says that a day with God is as 1000 years. There were 6 days of creation. The 7th Day is a Sabbath. Man was given 6000 years to rule the earth, the 7th Day is the Lords. He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Peter never gives a "celestial equivalent" to earth years here in 2 Peter 3:8. Here a thousand years emphasizes how slowly God moves (from our human perspective). In Psalm 90 the view is from the opposite angle: (our) time flies quickly!

Peter says the that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

He NEVER says they are equivalents!


Too many other passages suggesting a literal 1000 year reign and this is just off the top of my head.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest 1000 years is literal in an apocalyptic book filled with imagery and poetic writings.

achysklic
06-24-2011, 14:25
1000 has historically been conceived as a very large number. It suggests totality. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills (Psalm 50:10). Surely this means he owns all cattle (not to mention all the hills too), not just some of them.

God shows mercy to 1000 generations of those who love and obey him (Exodus 20:6). Surely his mercy does not expire after 1000 literal generations.

The point is that his mercy is unlimited.

Thus this is a symbolic number, and is being used figuratively, not literally.
1000 years shows that Satan has been completely defeated. This is not a period of time at all; it is a symbol of the defeat of the devil.

Further evidence that the 1000 years is a symbol, not a literal time period, is found in verse 6. Those rising in the first resurrection serve as priests for 1000 years. If this were literal, they would not serve after the 1000 years. And yet all Christians are priests (1:6; 5:10), all the time. Thus we are dealing with a symbol.

Yet there is a period of time be it literal or not I believe it is a literal 1000 yrs but others have always questioned God. Anyways There is to be a period of time after christ raises His church and bounds Satan and rules and teaches with His saints (church) for this period....This hasn't happened yet. It is comming though we have the promise of God on this.

Brasso
06-24-2011, 14:31
So once the "Kingdom is manifest on earth" there will not really be a need for a Law of the Land as everybody will be a Holy Automata by then, and it would seem that free will is no longer a problem.

Not quite. There will be no temptation. Combined with the Holy Spirit, people just won't be sinning. At least not in any exceptional ways. No one is suggesting that free will is gone. If you don't have the Holy Spirit, it's hard to understand.

Brasso
06-24-2011, 14:33
Peter says the that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

He NEVER says they are equivalents!



Yet, in other places the inference is made.

After two days He will revive us. After 3 days He will raise us up....

FifthFreedom
06-24-2011, 14:34
Women who are not virgins on their wedding night


-ArtificialGrape


Taking that out of context. I'll explain it to you when i get a chance

Kingarthurhk
06-24-2011, 14:36
Peter never gives a "celestial equivalent" to earth years here in 2 Peter 3:8. Here a thousand years emphasizes how slowly God moves (from our human perspective). In Psalm 90 the view is from the opposite angle: (our) time flies quickly!

Peter says the that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

He NEVER says they are equivalents!



There is absolutely nothing to suggest 1000 years is literal in an apocalyptic book filled with imagery and poetic writings.

Please allow me to assist:

http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/

Brasso
06-24-2011, 16:44
There are quite a few points left out of that scenario. The number of Scripture passages that are running through my head right now that directly contradict that article are too numerous to even attempt to write down.

Foxterriermom
06-25-2011, 09:24
Taking that out of context. I'll explain it to you when i get a chance


I thought the same. I am looking forward to your response. Thank you.

FTM

FifthFreedom
06-26-2011, 08:41
I thought the same. I am looking forward to your response. Thank you.

FTM



OK, the topic discussed in that section of Deuteronomy is a husband who comes to hate his wife and tries to void the Kesubah by accusing her of adultery.

Verse 21 reads: they shall take the girl out to the entrance of her father's house, and the men of her city shall pelt her with stones, and she shall die, for she did a disgraceful thing in Israel, to commit adultery [in] her father's house. So shall you clear away the evil from among you.

But how can this be? How could she have committed adultery before she was married?

There are two stages in Jewish marriage: kiddushin and nesuin.
kiddushin is effected when the groom gives his bride a ring or something of the sort and makes the declaration that, nowadays, is recited under the marriage canopy. For the lack of the English word that approximates this legal status, kiddushin is sometimes translated as "betrothal" but in truth, kiddushin establishes a far stronger legal obligation and statuis than a simple engagement ( see Numbers 30:7)
After kiddushin, the couple is halachally married in several respects, and she is liable to the death penalty for adultery. The marriage takes full effect with the nesuin after which, the couple may cohabit. In this passage, the husband accuses his new wife of not being a virgin. If true, and it can be proven she had commited adultery after kiddushin, she would be subject to the death penalty. If adultery cannot be proven, even if it is true that she is not a virgin at the time of kiddushin, she is not liable to any punishment by the court, because she may have lived with another man before the kiddushin.
Even so, she would not be entitled to collect the divorce settlement stipulated in her marriage contract, or the kesubah because she falsely represented herself as a virgin.

ArtificialGrape
06-27-2011, 09:44
OK, the topic discussed in that section of Deuteronomy is a husband who comes to hate his wife and tries to void the Kesubah by accusing her of adultery.

Verse 21 reads: they shall take the girl out to the entrance of her father's house, and the men of her city shall pelt her with stones, and she shall die, for she did a disgraceful thing in Israel, to commit adultery [in] her father's house. So shall you clear away the evil from among you.

But how can this be? How could she have committed adultery before she was married?

There are two stages in Jewish marriage: kiddushin and nesuin.
kiddushin is effected when the groom gives his bride a ring or something of the sort and makes the declaration that, nowadays, is recited under the marriage canopy. For the lack of the English word that approximates this legal status, kiddushin is sometimes translated as "betrothal" but in truth, kiddushin establishes a far stronger legal obligation and statuis than a simple engagement ( see Numbers 30:7)
After kiddushin, the couple is halachally married in several respects, and she is liable to the death penalty for adultery. The marriage takes full effect with the nesuin after which, the couple may cohabit. In this passage, the husband accuses his new wife of not being a virgin. If true, and it can be proven she had commited adultery after kiddushin, she would be subject to the death penalty. If adultery cannot be proven, even if it is true that she is not a virgin at the time of kiddushin, she is not liable to any punishment by the court, because she may have lived with another man before the kiddushin.
Even so, she would not be entitled to collect the divorce settlement stipulated in her marriage contract, or the kesubah because she falsely represented herself as a virgin.
So if the woman was never married, but had sex with another man prior to the kiddushin, but never after, could she still be put to death? Afterall, the parents would not be able to produce the bloody bed sheet if the accusation arose.

Could she disclose in their kesubah that she was not a virgin?

-ArtificialGrape

FifthFreedom
06-27-2011, 09:48
So if the woman was never married, but had sex with another man prior to the kiddushin, but never after, could she still be put to death? Afterall, the parents would not be able to produce the bloody bed sheet if the accusation arose.

Could she disclose in their kesubah that she was not a virgin?

-ArtificialGrape

No. She could only be put to death if it was proven she had sex after kiddushin with another man. an unmarried woman have pre-marital sex is not a death penalty situation.

Yes she could disclose that. In this situation however, she would lose it if she presented herself as one when in fact she wasn't