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Bilbo Bagins
06-17-2011, 07:46
al Qaeda is apparently looking into Mumbai style hotel attacks in the UK and possibly in the US.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/hotels-warned-of-terror-potential-terror-threats-ncx-20110617

Akita
06-17-2011, 07:55
I think there's quite a few citizens waiting on them over here.

Deployment Solu
06-17-2011, 10:17
Anti Al-Qaeda duty...where do I sign up???

UneasyRider
06-17-2011, 10:43
Well I sure hope that the respective governments are up for defending every major hotel in the country 24/7 because they won't have any armed civilians to help out.

Chuck TX
06-17-2011, 14:05
I'm surprised more Mumbai style attacks haven't happened to date. In some areas of the US they'd likely get stopped short, but in places like the UK where even the cops aren't well equipped for such an incident it'll be disastrous.

jdavionic
06-17-2011, 16:47
Maybe I'm getting too apathetic in my old age or perhaps I've achieved a comfortable level of preps. I don't want to see innocent people killed, obviously. But these threats just make me :yawn:

mac66
06-17-2011, 16:47
I'm surprised more Mumbai style attacks haven't happened to date. In some areas of the US they'd likely get stopped short, but in places like the UK where even the cops aren't well equipped for such an incident it'll be disastrous.

That last time I was in London (last July) they had cops all over the place with subguns. They know how to handle terrorist attacks there.

You want to pull a Mubai attack here, go to your basic "gun free zone," a school or college/university that doesn't have armed campus police.

ChuteTheMall
06-17-2011, 17:06
Ever spend the 4th of July in Washington DC?

:wow:

SPIN2010
06-17-2011, 17:07
Ever spend the 4th of July in Washington DC?

:wow:

Yes, and that there is funny. :rofl:Charlestown anyone?

lawman800
06-18-2011, 01:13
Well, in Los Angeles, there won't be any armed civilians but there will be a lot of LAPD coppers and they have the manpower and resources to adequately respond, just not before it is well underway.

In a smaller town with a smaller police department, then you can have a way better chance to pulling off a caper like this and get away with way more casualties.

RatDrall
06-18-2011, 06:25
In a smaller town with a smaller police department, then you can have a way better chance to pulling off a caper like this and get away with way more casualties.

Unless a local, who trains hard and is always prepared, puts an end to their party :whistling:

wjv
06-18-2011, 10:31
From Wikipedia (Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; no copyright issue)

Method

The attackers had planned the attack several months ahead of time and knew some areas well enough for the attackers to vanish, and reappear after security forces had left. Several sources have quoted Kasab telling the police that the group received help from Mumbai residents.[107][108] The attackers used at least three SIM cards purchased on the Indian side of the border with Bangladesh.[109] There were also reports of a SIM card purchased in the US state New Jersey.[110] Police had also mentioned that Faheem Ansari, an Indian Lashkar operative who had been arrested in February 2008, had scouted the Mumbai targets for the November attacks.[111] Later, the police arrested two Indian suspects, Mikhtar Ahmad, who is from Srinagar in Kashmir, and Tausif Rehman, a resident of Kolkata. They supplied the SIM cards, one in Calcutta, and the other in New Delhi.[112]

Type 86 Grenades made by China's state-owned Norinco were used in the attacks.[113]

Blood tests on the attackers indicate that they had taken cocaine and LSD during the attacks, to sustain their energy and stay awake for 50 hours. Police say that they found syringes on the scenes of the attacks. There were also indications that they had been taking steroids.[114] The gunman who survived said that the attackers had used Google Earth to familiarise themselves with the locations of buildings used in the attacks.[115]

There were ten gunmen, nine of whom were subsequently shot dead and one captured by security forces.[116][117] Witnesses reported that they looked to be in their early twenties, wore black t-shirts and jeans, and that they smiled and looked happy as they shot their victims.[118]

cowboy1964
06-18-2011, 14:03
Unless a local, who trains hard and is always prepared, puts an end to their party :whistling:

Rambo?

UneasyRider
06-18-2011, 15:37
Rambo?

They're all dead Johnny.

emt1581
06-18-2011, 15:53
I'm surprised more Mumbai style attacks haven't happened to date. In some areas of the US they'd likely get stopped short, but in places like the UK where even the cops aren't well equipped for such an incident it'll be disastrous.

+1

I've said the same about IED's and roadside bombs with no real argument from anyone except..."the bad guys get here, turn out to like our way of life, and then change their minds". :upeyes:

As far as hotel shootings and such, this is why I ALWAYS have my Draco in my GHB. It helps turn cover into concealment. Plus a couple armed with at least 9mm's would be a nightmare for mass shooters...armed with shotguns even moreso. But I refuse to pay $600+ for Serbu's just on principle.

As stated earlier, college campuses are plump and juicy targets for terrorists. It would be fairly easy to bomb/shoot up one. Again, no clue why there aren't such attacks going on. All that's needed is a gun and some ammo along with a true hatred for our way of life and there seems to be entire countries filled with such people. I certainly do not WANT it to happen mind you but why it hasn't happened is baffling. :dunno:

-Emt1581

jdavionic
06-18-2011, 16:27
I certainly do not WANT it to happen mind you but why it hasn't happened is baffling. :dunno:

-Emt1581

I agree. I know the enemy measures time different than we do. If a victory takes centuries, they don't see that as a problem. However I would just think there are so many easy or soft targets that require little money or planning to be effective.

emt1581
06-18-2011, 16:39
I agree. I know the enemy measures time different than we do. If a victory takes centuries, they don't see that as a problem. However I would just think there are so many easy or soft targets that require little money or planning to be effective.

Exactly. Winning by attrition is one thing but it's almost like they are either wussing out or waiting for a higher power to do it for them through disease, natural disaster, etc...

-Emt1581

lawman800
06-18-2011, 16:50
Unless a local, who trains hard and is always prepared, puts an end to their party :whistling:

Rambo, John McClain, Master Chief Casey Ryback, and that annoying Kid from Home Alone are all nice Hollywood fiction, but the lone hero that takes on a whole determined team of baddies is not likely to fare too well in the real world without a high degree of skill and a lot of luck.

What do you guys carry EDC? I am not loaded for bear when I am not working. I used to carry a lot more but lately, I have lightened my off duty carry to a pocket pistol with 7+1 9mm in the gun and a 7 round reload. Hardly enough to take on a team of terrorists wielding AK-47's and even shotguns unless I cannabalize and take guns off each dead bad guy.

You really expect some lone local off duty cop or even on duty cop to take on a massive attack such as that in Mumbai with multiple locations and multiple teams with assault rifles and explosives?

He might take a few bastards with him but killing all of them and putting an end to the whole fight is unlikely.

rj1939
06-19-2011, 04:44
I could be in trouble when/if they start targeting Super 8. :upeyes:

RatDrall
06-19-2011, 06:44
Rambo?

Yeah, it turns out that non ninja/specops/swat/leo/whatevercoolfantasy dudes can kill badguys too, they just have to train for what comes their way. In fact, there are actually places now where lowly civilians can go to learn how to do dangerous things to bad people :shocked:

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/

Chuck TX
06-19-2011, 09:01
That last time I was in London (last July) they had cops all over the place with subguns. They know how to handle terrorist attacks there.

You want to pull a Mubai attack here, go to your basic "gun free zone," a school or college/university that doesn't have armed campus police.

A few may be carrying mp5s, but not all UK cops even carry a sidearm. That ain't going to cut it.

Well, in Los Angeles, there won't be any armed civilians but there will be a lot of LAPD coppers and they have the manpower and resources to adequately respond, just not before it is well underway.

In a smaller town with a smaller police department, then you can have a way better chance to pulling off a caper like this and get away with way more casualties.

A smaller town also has less of a concentration of people which makes for a lame target. Not to mention, 'round here anyway, a higher percentage of folks that carry and a lot less of a "not my problem attitude". Of course, that's a culture thing, not likely in Cali.

volsbear
06-20-2011, 12:26
Well, in Los Angeles, there won't be any armed civilians but there will be a lot of LAPD coppers and they have the manpower and resources to adequately respond, just not before it is well underway.

.

Bingo, ace. The keyword is RESPOND. No offense to any LEO, but a response to an attack doesn't prevent fatalities. Possibly on-going fatalities.

lawman800
06-20-2011, 18:26
A smaller town also has less of a concentration of people which makes for a lame target. Not to mention, 'round here anyway, a higher percentage of folks that carry and a lot less of a "not my problem attitude". Of course, that's a culture thing, not likely in Cali.

Not small-town, USA outside of CA. I was thinking some of the suburbs in the Los Angeles area with police departments with 5 guys on patrol at any one time. Population density is there. Hit a school or market and you don't need mass casualties to instill terror in the populace.

Bingo, ace. The keyword is RESPOND. No offense to any LEO, but a response to an attack doesn't prevent fatalities. Possibly on-going fatalities.

Awww... Nobody calls me Ace anymore! That's sweet!

Arvinator
06-20-2011, 18:59
As a cop, I know I cannot play Rambo and wipe out a wide scale terror attack but I hope that any cop or good guy armed would have the backbone to fight the scum who are there to slaughter innocent people. I carry a rifle in my personal car and pickup, not to go looking for trouble, but to hopefully keep trouble like this away from my wife who could easily be with me. A bolt action MN-44 is not going to supress a team af attackers, but a well placed round would stop a active killer, which is the goal in general. I keep a AR with SEVERAL loaded mags in my partol car, along with a few hand held breaching tools, OC tossable canisters, and my shotgun. Additional body armor to include a kevlar helment is part of my gear. Communications with other cops and good guys is a must, so I encourage signals as well as cell phone use with my fellow coppers.
Observation, alertness, preparation, and most of all determination is needed to stop such an attack....And Prayers.

quake
06-20-2011, 20:21
...the lone hero that takes on a whole determined team of baddies is not likely to fare too well in the real world without a high degree of skill and a lot of luck.

...What do you guys carry EDC? I am not loaded for bear when I am not working. I used to carry a lot more but lately, I have lightened my off duty carry to a pocket pistol with 7+1 9mm in the gun and a 7 round reload.

...He might take a few bastards with him but killing all of them and putting an end to the whole fight is unlikely.

Agree on all counts. Not saying I wouldn't try, because I believe I would. But I've been 'killed' enough times in training to have come to grips with the fact that I'm not immortal - and I'm no "operator". I'm a big lumbering redneck with some training & a lot of shooting experience; but one who gets older & a little slower every year, and the bad guys just sometimes win.

Two of the scariest words for me for the last several years have been 'stagflation' and 'beslan'. I really am surprised that we haven't seen something along this vein, even if on a smaller scale.

UneasyRider
06-20-2011, 21:09
Agree on all counts. Not saying I wouldn't try, because I believe I would. But I've been 'killed' enough times in training to have come to grips with the fact that I'm not immortal - and I'm no "operator". I'm a big lumbering redneck with some training & a lot of shooting experience; but one who gets older & a little slower every year, and the bad guys just sometimes win.

Two of the scariest words for me for the last several years have been 'stagflation' and 'mumbai'. I really am surprised that we haven't seen something along this vein, even if on a smaller scale.

That sounds like me. Let them try their best when there are people who will walk into fire. Screw them

emt1581
06-20-2011, 21:18
I really am surprised that we haven't seen something along this vein, even if on a smaller scale.

It doesn't make sense does it?

Again, for a nation that has so many others filled with people dedicated to the destruction of our way of life, it boggles the mind that at least one of them can't hop on a plane, buy something explosive or at least flammable and do some kind of damage. :dunno:

-Emt1581

RetailNinjitsu
06-20-2011, 22:01
They are going to get the best "bang for the buck". It will be a school.

LongGun1
06-20-2011, 22:30
They are going to get the best "bang for the buck". It will be a school.


Sadly...you may be right...

..& Beslan is an example of what may be in store for us!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

WolfNotSheep
06-20-2011, 23:13
Schools are, unfortunately, a prime terror target. Middle schools especially, where the girls are old enough to rape but not to effectively fight back. It also cuts down on grown males available to fight back. Its a sad psychology terrorist use. Sad, but effective.

Thankfully the moment a terrorist walks into a gun free school zone his weapons and his intentions will be vaporized into leprechaun farts and unicorn turds.

lawman800
06-21-2011, 01:15
Schools are, unfortunately, a prime terror target. Middle schools especially, where the girls are old enough to rape but not to effectively fight back. It also cuts down on grown males available to fight back. Its a sad psychology terrorist use. Sad, but effective.

If Beslan is any indication, they immediately kill all the adults who might pose a threat and then they take their time systematically raping women. Also, in parts of that culture, girls at 13 are considered just fine for marriage, and hence, sexual activity.

Sickening but that is what we are dealing with. The sooner some sheeple here get the picture, the better.

LongGun1
06-21-2011, 01:22
Thankfully the moment a terrorist walks into a gun free school zone his weapons and his intentions will be vaporized into leprechaun farts and unicorn turds.



The anti-gun liberals would love to have this fantasy be a reality...

..but the opposite (as you well know) is the raw truth!


Just in your AO...

Though this tragedy received worldwide press..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre





.. this one got stopped at the onset before the body count rose further...

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/25/153427.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

..due to timely intervention by armed students...

.. & another unarmed student willing to risk his life for others..

..but got little to no press concerning what occurred during the take down of the shooter!






Israel got wise..

(concerning authorizing & encouraging teachers and other staff to be armed at their schools & concealed carry by the populace)..

..and terrorists got the message!



Though terrorists would love to see a Israeli bloodbath (IMO)..

..the rare incidents of school shootings there tend to end in the early death of the assailant..

(I seem to remember one where the teacher chased the terrorist firing while running..

..and when the terrorist was wounded & down..

..the teacher came to a stop emptying the pistol in his head...good riddance)

This shooting (though the terrorist was well armed) was ended by a part time student & a IDF officer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_shooting

lawman800
06-21-2011, 02:24
Why would the media want people to know that good law-abiding armed citizens can take care of themselves? That would end most people's dependence on big government and big media to tell them how to live their lives.

volsbear
06-21-2011, 07:07
Awww... Nobody calls me Ace anymore! That's sweet!

I seem to remember you liked pillow talk :tongueout:

volsbear
06-21-2011, 07:13
I've been preaching the Beslan concept for a while now. People think I'm a nut for thinking anyone would do that in our schools. But it's one of the WORST things that could happen. It would cripple us a nation for a substantial period of time. MILLIONS of men and women would stay home from work for weeks out of fear of sending their children to school. You think 9/11 crippled us financially? How about the sweeping effect of millions of parents suddenly disengaging from global commerce and staying home with their youngins. And that's just the economic effect. Throw in the psychologically debiliatating effect of a massacre against children in the most powerful country on Earth. The symbolic victory for our enemies would be tremendous.

The only reason you could plausibly attach to why it hasn't happened is fear. I suppose there is a slight chance that our enemies KNOW that the war we'd wage on them would never end. Perhaps (hopefully?) a Beslan type incident is a road they're not prepared to embark upon. But I doubt it.

LongGun1
06-21-2011, 07:23
Why would the media want people to know that good law-abiding armed citizens can take care of themselves? That would end most people's dependence on big government and big media to tell them how to live their lives.



Exactly...

More on Citizen Carry, Safe Schools & Terrorists....

http://gunowners.org/op0218.htm

quake
06-21-2011, 08:24
Correction on my earlier post - I was thinking "beslan" when the topic was "mumbai". Beslan is what I was referring to, and still worry about more than most any other type of incident.

lawman800
06-21-2011, 09:47
I seem to remember you liked pillow talk :tongueout:

Now you just need to bring me flowers once in a while.:crying:

Another ramification is school funding. In CA, public schools are funded based on ADA (average daily attendance). They get paid when there are kids in the classroom.

When kids are kept home by fearful parents, ADA drops. Funding drops. I doubt the state will make an exception. Schools suffer. Surrounding economies suffer. People don't realize it but public schools are big money. They employ a lot of people and consume a lot of goods.

cyrsequipment
06-21-2011, 12:55
Not small-town, USA outside of CA. I was thinking some of the suburbs in the Los Angeles area with police departments with 5 guys on patrol at any one time. Population density is there. Hit a school or market and you don't need mass casualties to instill terror in the populace.


5 Guys on at once????

I think there are only 3 cities in this state that have 5+ guys on at any given time...

These guys will be going for small towns, they will look for mass horror. I hope they get stopped before they kill anyone.

emt1581
06-21-2011, 15:45
The only reason you could plausibly attach to why it hasn't happened is fear. I suppose there is a slight chance that our enemies KNOW that the war we'd wage on them would never end. Perhaps (hopefully?) a Beslan type incident is a road they're not prepared to embark upon. But I doubt it.

I think we're not only dealing with an enemy that is supposidely fearLESS but they seem pretty happy to die. They care about the 72 virgins not about being shot/killed.

The only fear I can see these people having is the fear that they will not take out enough infidels which would piss off their God afterwards. :dunno:

But again, if these folks are really that extreme...why are we not seeing more of the easy stuff over here??

-Emt1581

UneasyRider
06-21-2011, 16:39
I think we're not only dealing with an enemy that is supposidely fearLESS but they seem pretty happy to die. They care about the 72 virgins not about being shot/killed.

The only fear I can see these people having is the fear that they will not take out enough infidels which would piss off their God afterwards. :dunno:

But again, if these folks are really that extreme...why are we not seeing more of the easy stuff over here??

-Emt1581

I guess not that many believe it enough.

lawman800
06-21-2011, 19:18
5 Guys on at once????

I think there are only 3 cities in this state that have 5+ guys on at any given time...

These guys will be going for small towns, they will look for mass horror. I hope they get stopped before they kill anyone.

We have all sorts in the county. Some cities like Sierra Madre only puts out 1 car per night but they have a small little residential only jurisdiction. Others like Long Beach put out a lot more since they have a big city and 2,200+ officers.

I guess not that many believe it enough.

Maybe they got wise and realized the 72 virgins were other suicide bombers who died as virgins.

UneasyRider
06-21-2011, 20:24
Maybe they got wise and realized the 72 virgins were other suicide bombers who died as virgins.

I saw a guy on TV make a really convincing argument that it was 72 white grapes not virgins, he pointed out the slight difference in the written character and how it was mixed in with a grocery list of fine foods for the time.

lawman800
06-21-2011, 21:00
I saw a guy on TV make a really convincing argument that it was 72 white grapes not virgins, he pointed out the slight difference in the written character and how it was mixed in with a grocery list of fine foods for the time.

Screw that! 72 grapes are too good for those turds. They can sodomize each other's virgin asses up in their paradise.

LongGun1
06-21-2011, 21:10
I guess not that many believe it enough.



Personally, I believe many of those that would come here to inflict harm..

..find it easier to stay local to the Middle East...

..& are drawn to engage our forces in Iraq/Afghanistan.



That being said....I have no doubt there are many Islamic Terrorists Cells & 'Lone Wolfs' here in the US..

..and more Americans will be sacrificed on the sacred 'Altar of Diversity' created by our out-of-control Federal Government!

AlexHassin
06-21-2011, 21:53
As for guesses why we have not seen attacks with small arms in the US here are my observations.
The most iconic targets are covered. Peek in to Pen Station, most day there are officers in swat level gear just hanging out. In Grand Central you can see more officers in the main hall then are in some upstate PD’s.
Increased school security I don’t know if there are more of them now, or they are just more noticeable now that I live in Manhattan near as school, but there are a lot of school officers and just plain NYPD hanging around schools.
Lots of training and its known yes its annoying to have drills going on and such but it does act as a deterrent. So it messes up traffic, it still acts as a deterrent when they read about how half of NYPD ran around over the weekend in a mock war for the streets. This is also seen in smaller areas. A friend of mine works at a school in a rural area (4,000 people) and the Police up there train in response to school shootings quite a bit too.
After the first hit everything would get even more security the first shooting or two would probably meet a lot less prepared and organized response then latter ones. Mine as well have every possible piece in place for your first big shooting. That takes time, and exposes them to people looking for them too.

lawman800
06-21-2011, 22:04
We've gotten away from the nonstop active shooter training for a while and focus more on running and gunning in a dynamic engagement scenario but I hooked up a buddy in training bureau and we are going to do more FoF active shooter stuff soon. Still, casualties can be minimized but not avoided. That is just the nature of war. Make no mistake about it, we are in a war. Low intensity but still a war.

cyrsequipment
06-22-2011, 05:37
We've gotten away from the nonstop active shooter training for a while and focus more on running and gunning in a dynamic engagement scenario but I hooked up a buddy in training bureau and we are going to do more FoF active shooter stuff soon. Still, casualties can be minimized but not avoided. That is just the nature of war. Make no mistake about it, we are in a war. Low intensity but still a war.

We retooled most of our "active shooter" stuff too. Much more aggressive. there were issues that we found with initial "plan".

And you're right, regardless of when the good guys get there, people are going to already be dead.

HAMMERHEAD
06-28-2011, 13:09
al Qaeda is apparently looking into Mumbai style hotel attacks in the UK and possibly in the US.

Well it wasn't in the US/UK, but it looks like you were right, Kabul Afgan. Intercontinental hotel attacked in Mumbai style suicide attack.
I think the forecast for the UK/US is valid. Al Queda want to prove they're still a force.

emt1581
06-28-2011, 15:57
Well it wasn't in the US/UK, but it looks like you were right, Kabul Afgan. Intercontinental hotel attacked in Mumbai style suicide attack.
I think the forecast for the UK/US is valid. Al Queda want to prove they're still a force.

Then again Afganistan is a war zone no?

-Emt1581

JKDGabe
06-28-2011, 16:01
Another ramification is school funding. In CA, public schools are funded based on ADA (average daily attendance). They get paid when there are kids in the classroom.

When kids are kept home by fearful parents, ADA drops. Funding drops. I doubt the state will make an exception. Schools suffer. Surrounding economies suffer. People don't realize it but public schools are big money. They employ a lot of people and consume a lot of goods.

That money comes from where...? Oh, that's right, from the people. Once it's taken from us, they take a cut before giving some back. Our economy would be doing better if they'd stop taking so much.

But again, if these folks are really that extreme...why are we not seeing more of the easy stuff over here??

Well, surely it's not because our government is lying to us about how many there are in order to gain more power for themselves, is it? Of course not, they'd never do that. :upeyes:

HAMMERHEAD
06-28-2011, 16:53
Then again Afganistan is a war zone no?

Not really, that area is supposed to be in Gov't control. Only parts of Afgan are under taliban control or are disputed.

SPIN2010
06-28-2011, 17:07
Not really, that area is supposed to be in Gov't control. Only parts of Afgan are under taliban control or are disputed.

Like say maybe Kabul?

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/top-hotel-kabul-attacked-suicide-bombers-192304505.html

HAMMERHEAD
06-28-2011, 17:09
Yeah, It's not Kansas.

emt1581
06-28-2011, 18:17
Yeah, It's not Kansas.

Let me know when it hits Kansas or Europe, Asia, etc...ANYWHERE but the Middle East.

-Emt1581

R_W
06-28-2011, 18:41
Yeah, It's not Kansas.

And it won't happen (successfully) in Kansas, or anywhere else that has CCW.

NY, LA, and Chicago are own their own...

Dalton Wayne
06-28-2011, 18:44
BREAKING NEWS

Six Taliban gunmen and suicide bombers attacked Kabul's Hotel Inter-Continental in a carefully orchestrated operation that began Tuesday night and continued into Wednesday, ending with their deaths.
"All six attackers have been killed," Afghan Interior Minister Bismullah Khan said some seven hours after the attack began. By then, part of the luxury hotel was ablaze.
The exact number of civilian casualties was not clear, but Chief of Criminal Investigation Mohammad Zahir said at least eight civilians died.

cowboy1964
06-28-2011, 19:00
Does Kabul have CCW?

cowboy1964
06-28-2011, 19:01
And it won't happen (successfully) in Kansas, or anywhere else that has CCW.

Define "successfully". Laughner did a hell of a lot of damage in the middle of one of the most heavily armed CCW populaces in this country. That was one guy with a handgun.

emt1581
06-28-2011, 19:05
And it won't happen (successfully) in Kansas, or anywhere else that has CCW.

NY, LA, and Chicago are own their own...

Doesn't Israel ENCOURAGE carrying?...and they've had cafe bombings for a while now. Rockets flying over their borders as well at some points...

-Emt1581

lawman800
06-28-2011, 19:23
Then again Afganistan is a war zone no?

-Emt1581

The jihadists declared all of the west, especially America, to be a warzone.

emt1581
06-28-2011, 19:27
The jihadists declared all of the west, especially America, to be a warzone.

Not to sound belligerent but where's the war??

-Emt1581

lawman800
06-28-2011, 19:46
Not to sound belligerent but where's the war??

-Emt1581

There is no dispute they declared the war upon us but whether or not they are pursuing the war very well is another matter. I can declare war on you and not do one thing about it. That is my problem. Which works to your benefit. But that doesn't change the facts.

emt1581
06-28-2011, 20:18
There is no dispute they declared the war upon us but whether or not they are pursuing the war very well is another matter. I can declare war on you and not do one thing about it. That is my problem. Which works to your benefit. But that doesn't change the facts.

Sounds kinda similar to us in some ways.

Skip to 00:45 for more clarification...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1758399283485600863#

-Emt1581

blownhemi
06-28-2011, 20:23
I'm surprised a Mumbai style attack hasn't happened in Australia. We're a big country with very concentrated population areas. Black market weapons aren't hard to get and it's rare that you see cops in a shopping centre or anything like that.

Greatest targets for terrorists in my opinion would be shopping centres, schools, trains (especially interstate trains; imagine being trapped on a train with a couple homicidal maniacs with guns?), interstate highways (you block off the road and kill everyone who comes along, and fresh targets keep on coming). A lot of people would die before there was any meaningful response here in Australia. Simultaneous attacks across the country would paralyse the nation.

R_W
06-28-2011, 20:59
Define "successfully". Laughner did a hell of a lot of damage in the middle of one of the most heavily armed CCW populaces in this country. That was one guy with a handgun.

Hate to break it to you, but in a crowd anyone could get one magazine off before a response.

just a shooter
06-28-2011, 21:23
Hate to break it to you, but in a crowd anyone could get one magazine off before a response.

ok, now mix in 4-5 more attackers and what do you have?

in a movie theater, mall or sporting venue, planned out they could spread out before tipping their hand, set some pre -attack fires for diversion to concentrate people near the exits, block the exits or chain doors shut (doesn't have to be solid just temporarily effective) and start shooting.

being smug does not make one invincible.

it could happen, it just might soon too.

and lucky me I get to guard against these things at my work.

we run scenarios like this all the time. the possibilities are simply frightening and there is no way we will be able to catch them all. best we can do is get lucky.

HAMMERHEAD
06-28-2011, 22:43
disregard.

xd675
07-05-2011, 20:35
I dont post here much these days. I saw this thread and figured I'd post some info I've seen around on the topic. The following was posted by DMK at THR back in 2004. Some of the information tracks with information leaked about previous attacks, but I'll leave it to you guys to do with whatever you wish.

Thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-90103.html

I recently had the opportunity to conduct a detailed review of a captured Al Qaeda training tape.
My impressions:

The tape was apparently produced for Al Qaeda internal use and did not appear to be an external propaganda production.

The tape showed Al Qaeda operatives engaging in a number of training exercises including small arms firing ranges, live-fire room entry, and numerous mixed live-fire/role-player type of scenarios.

Scenarios included: Assassinations, Kidnappings, Bombings, and Small unit raids on various types of targets. The training depicted in these scenarios was clearly for export according to an intelligence expert that commented on the tape. "None of these training scenarios depicts the type of fighting that Al Qaeda engages in within Afghanistan."

Detailed planning, diagramming and walk-through's followed by live-fire exercises were the norm.

There were a lot of role playing, scenario type of interactions.

The role players made aggressive moves simulating resistance at various points throughout the scenarios. All such resistance was met with immediate and brutal countermeasures by the terrorists. There was no presumed compliance on the part of the terrorists.

The effort to produce detail and realism in training was impressive.

These people are using extremely effective training methods!

The following points were seen REPEATEDLY and ROUTINELY throughout the training exercises:

1. Use of standard military small unit tactics with multiple elements. (Assault, Security and Support elements)

2. Coordination with sub-elements via hand-held FM radios.

3. Use of pick-up trucks by the assault element to conduct raids/assassinations (shooters concealed in bed of truck).

4. Use of Motorcycles by the security element (as well as in the historical role as a shooting platform for drive by shootings/assassinations.)

5. Use of explosives upon withdrawal from the objective.

6. Use of vehicle horn to signal withdrawal (and initiation of explosives.)

7. Detailed planning and rehearsal of all actions.

8. Exercise of prisoner handling procedures. >From initial contact, to search and control, to execution of prisoners. Role players could be heard begging not to be killed (IN ENGLISH). Terrorists practiced commands in English also.

9. Multiple man room entries. Typically one or two, 2-man teams that assumed a back to back position near the center of the room.

10. Distraction devices used prior to room entry. Fuse lit devices (improvised?)

11. Multiple breach points into structures and into individual rooms.

12. All scenarios were practiced live-fire. Including those that involved role players. Paper targets and role players were interspersed in the same scenarios. (The terrorists showed good muzzle awareness and control.)

The weapons handling was NOT haphazard. All terrorist operatives carried and fired their weapons using the same techniques.

Some specific weapons handling idiosyncrasies are:

1. Handguns were carried in high ready.

2. Long guns (AK variants) were carried and fired rotated 90 degrees (ejection port up)

Specific scenarios included:

1. Targeting of law enforcement officers in ambush/assassinations.

Faked disabled vehicle with shooters concealed in trunk of car or bed of truck. When officer stops his vehicle behind "disabled vehicle" assault is initiated by driver blowing horn. Target was first engaged with rifle fire from the vehicle, terrorists then debussed to administer "coup de grace" at close range. An explosive device was thrown into the LE vehicle on exfiltration. This was one of a number of scenarios that were shown first as a diagram and explanation, then progressing to dry fire walk through and finally to a live-fire exercise. Target location was shown as a 6 lane divided highway with the terrorist vehicle located just prior to the exit/cloverleaf (to allow multiple exfiltration routes and security overview.) There aren't any such highways in Afghanistan and damn few in the Middle East. In one iteration of this scenario the security/overwatch element was exercised firing on possible responding LEOs.

2. Residential assassination.

Innocuous looking person (weapon concealed) knocks on door of residence. Stands in view of peephole and answers question from resident through closed door. When resident opens door terrorist draws and fires, emptying weapon into victim.

3. Assassination on golf course.

Target was on the green (at the pin/flag.) A Rocket Propelled Grenade (RPG) was fired at a vehicle adjacent to the green (VIP security element?) to initiate the hit. Target was then engaged with rifle fire.

4. Two and four-man live-fire room entry (2-man back to back technique) with target discrimination (shoot/no shoot targets).

5. Raid on compound (Kidnapping).

One person taken. Initiated with RPG. Initiation was when Guard Shack was taken out with grenades. Primary target building was engaged with RPG. Primary target building was entered through multiple breach points (through explosive breach of wall and through windows.) Exfiltration was by truck with motorcycle security element in overwatch positions.

6. Drive up kidnapping of target walking down the street.

7. Use of tunnels/storm drains/sewers for infiltration and exfiltration during raids.

8. Rappelling from roof of building to make entry on upper floors was shown on more than one occasion.

9. Motorcycle drive-by target practice. Shooter stands up on rear pegs and extends arms over driver. Excellent muzzle awareness and control.

10. Grenades thrown into second story windows by motorcycle drive-bys.

MULTIPLE SCENARIOS/EXERCISES involved raids on buildings with a large number of occupants (school or office building?)

These raids followed a standard pattern:

1. Covert/surreptitious entry into building and movement to initial points. (Rifles hidden on persons and in bags/cases carried into building.)

2. Initiation with extreme violence of action. Any resisters are shot.

3. Immediate positive control and search of prisoners. Any resisters, or anyone they don't like the look of, are shot.

4. Segregation of prisoners into manageable groups. (Explosives were displayed to gain psychological dominance over prisoners.)

5. Movement of selected prisoners in small groups to the roof where terrorists posture and make statements for the press/cameras.

6. Prisoners executed one-by-one in front of the press/cameras.

7. All scenarios involving prisoners ended in execution of the prisoners and none included a plan for exfiltration of the terrorists. They plan to kill the prisoners and to die in place.

The major take home lesson here is that although the enemy is known to be seeking the ability and opportunity to use weapons of mass destruction and of an unconventional nature, such as hijacked airliners, they are also spending a lot of time training to carry out attacks the old-fashioned way. Attacks executed by small groups of dedicated personnel equipped with little more than small arms.

There is information to the effect that the "perfect day" as seen by Al Qaeda would combine attacks designed to produce the maximum number of casualties with attacks that would give them the opportunity to get "face time" on the news channels to deliver their rhetoric. For maximum effect these attacks would take place nearly simultaneously at multiple geographically separate locations.

We need to address, in training and in personal preparation, the differences between a typical criminal victimization and a terrorist incident in terms of early recognition and appropriate response. I.E. The typical bank robbery vs. finding yourself in the middle of a terrorist attack on a "financial institution" (as per the recent FBI warning.)

If you find yourself in the middle of one of these attacks, there will not be time for the SWAT team to intervene on your behalf. Compliance will buy you only a very little time. If you are identified as a potential problem to the terrorists you will be shot! (They are training to spot Law Enforcement, Security and Corrections Officers as well as armed citizens.) If, by feigned compliance, you make it through the first cut you can expect to be physically restrained and then controlled with threats to the rest of your group and to the other groups. "We will blow up the women and children in the next room if any of you do not do exactly as we say!" Your ultimate fate, if you do not resist, is to be ritually executed in front of the television cameras.

In my opinion the best time to act is most likely to be at the initiation of the attack. Once the terrorists are consolidating on the objective it will be very difficult to take effective action. You must plan on providing effective resistance at the first opportunity! Shoot, move and communicate. Seek cover, use your weapon as required. Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?)

Keep in mind that before any terrorist action there are many opportunities to interrupt their cycle by detecting their pre-mission activities. This is where we all can be of assistance. Pay attention to what is going on around you as you go about your daily business. Investigate and report any unusual or suspicious activity that you observe (note vehicle make and model, license plates, personnel descriptions etc.)

John Holschen
Insights Training Center, Inc

From Mike Hargreaves, Brit Special Ops and world-class trainer. I agree with everything except his advice to get rid of those "big bullets." Can't help it, must be in my genes! ;=)

Dave,

Please note in the attack on the kindergarten, the terminology, "gave chase, and killed him with gunshots" no one spoke of arrest, no one said "alleged" "focus" 100% focus, to kill, the only solution, give chase, running, firing whilst running, both hands up, gun bouncing, terrorist hit, turning, trying to fire back, falling, shooter continuing to shoot, terrorist on the ground, he is still being shot!! the pistol was a Semi auto, must have been, probably a 9mm, the gun was in all probability emptied into the head of the terrorist, blood would be on the shoes and pant legs of this children's defender!! America! are you up to this? no you are not! you are too bloody nice! too soft!! these people know this!! this same scenario has been played before in Israel, many times, take it to the RANGE Run, gun up, shoot as you approach targets strung out in line in front of the shooter, end with a ground target, a melon, a squash, whatever, shoot the gun dry, scream like a mad person, reload, seek out hidden targets!!

WEAPON SELECTION. Hicap magazines, 9mm, at least one spare Magazine on belt, two better, night sights.

Ammo: good hollow points in pistol, and first replacement Mag: last Mag: of the three. mil: spec: hardball.

HOLSTER. On belt concealed, always, in house, in office, in Cafe, in Church, always!! you cannot drink to excess, ever again, you dress armed, you think armed, you go armed, always.

Lose the love affair with "Big Bullets" you need lots of bullets,you need the lightest effective round, least possible recoil, hits count, misses with any calibre do not!! cancel the ban on hicap magazines, all concealed carry courses must have live fire, must teach shooting from chair, car, ladder!, where ever you can be.

GET READY AMERICA, OR GET DEAD.

MIKE HARGREAVES.

http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/gunshield.htm


I do believe we have not seen a Beslan or other major attack here because the attack will result in America pulling together, as we tend to do. Our country is unfocused, divided, and our current leadership has made some huge errors (or intentional Republic destroying decisions depending on what you believe). You do not interrupt your enemy while they are in the process of making a mistake.

Besides, the fanatical muslims have their hands full already over running new countries and forming a power base to worry about lashing out at the US or our allies. Once they consolidate their new lands, once Iran goes nuclear, they will try to deal with us on more equal terms. That's just me thinking out loud though. Most of these guys dont think like we do. Quite a few believe spreading mayhem and chaos will hasten their coming of an important religious individuals return to earth. Lord only knows whats up their sleeves.

lawman800
07-05-2011, 21:42
The Perfect Day is a very scary concept. In any country, a massed attack will easily overwhelm the civil authorities and the military will take a long time to be able to mount an effective counter attack.

Too bad about the new tapes. I was happier when the fanatics were training how to assault playgrounds and mastering the monkey bars.

id1otbox
10-18-2011, 03:20
The reason why we do not see as many attacks here is that the Muslim terrorists are trying to put a wedge between Israel and the US because they know that we are weaker if separated. They attack us just enough to effect public opinion of war. They are extremely smart and calculate their attacks to manipulate the opinion of the worlds nations. Once Americans have drank their cool-aid and believe that supporting Israel is causing our nation harm, attacks will suddenly stop while they focus on Israel. Once Israel is conquered they will continue with the rest of the free world.

You've got to remember that these guys don't value their lives. It doesn't matter if they succeed in this lifetime or the next. It may be more important how many sleepers we have in America in 50 or 100 years from now or more, then to how many we currently have.

"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us." - Golda Meir, Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957

jdavionic
10-18-2011, 03:48
The reason why we do not see as many attacks here is that the Muslim terrorists are trying to put a wedge between Israel and the US because they know that we are weaker if separated.

I would respectfully disagree. We don't need Israel to win a conflict. So I don't see how a "wedge" would be an effective strategy. Besides, Americans have already thrown the biggest wedge between the US and Israel with the election of Obama.

That's not to say that they (Islamic radicals) don't want to see the end of the US and Israel. They are both goals for them. For the US though, I believe they are fighting a war of 1000 cuts. They can threaten us many times, and just periodically attempt to attack in order to keep the threats a concern. We respond by spending a tremendous amount of money on every threat. The cummalitive effect is huge.

cyrsequipment
10-18-2011, 06:57
You've got to remember that these guys don't value their lives. It doesn't matter if they succeed in this lifetime or the next. It may be more important how many sleepers we have in America in 50 or 100 years from now or more, then to how many we currently have.

"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us." - Golda Meir, Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957

I like that quote.

As for the sleepers. I don't think it really matters how many sleepers we have, the real issue is the radicalization of those that have been brainwashed into thinking that the US caused the problems for the arabs.

Or the really stupid people that think that the terrorists only want us to stop supporting Israel and then they will leave us alone.

They want to rule the world with their religion, pure and simple. They are willing to wait several lifetimes to do so, but that is their ultimate goal.

happyguy
10-18-2011, 07:19
Well, in Los Angeles, there won't be any armed civilians but there will be a lot of LAPD coppers and they have the manpower and resources to adequately respond, just not before it is well underway.

In a smaller town with a smaller police department, then you can have a way better chance to pulling off a caper like this and get away with way more casualties.

A Mumbai style (formerly known as "swarming") attack on a downtown skyscraper by a properly trained and equipped force could result in the deaths of hundreds before the LAPD could do much.

Training and equipping such a force without drawing attention is the hardest part and where all these efforts have so far failed.

Edit: I see xd675 beat me to it and provided much detail. That is a great post.:wavey:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

id1otbox
10-19-2011, 03:33
They want to rule the world with their religion, pure and simple. They are willing to wait several lifetimes to do so, but that is their ultimate goal.

The true leaders of the Islamist extremists run things like its a business they just want to remain in power and prosper. There is a reason you don't see any of these guys blowing themselves up, only kids whom they have brain washed. The cultures of these countries evolved from a time when their people were in small numbers starving in the mountains. The family with the most men in it got to bully the rest of the tribe and be in charge. This is the same thing that is happening now but with a country of millions that have all the resources available for all their people to prosper but this small group of thugs don't want it that way or they wont be as rich. The people are unhappy and the best way to keep the focus off the corrupt government of a few dozen ridiculously wealthy thugs is to have an enemy. Their suffering is the fault of the jews... and the democrats... europeans and americans... The true people in power don't beleive the religious fundamental bull**** or they would be blowing themselves up as well for the promised afterlife.

id1otbox
10-19-2011, 03:45
I would respectfully disagree. We don't need Israel to win a conflict. So I don't see how a "wedge" would be an effective strategy. Besides, Americans have already thrown the biggest wedge between the US and Israel with the election of Obama.

That's not to say that they (Islamic radicals) don't want to see the end of the US and Israel. They are both goals for them. For the US though, I believe they are fighting a war of 1000 cuts. They can threaten us many times, and just periodically attempt to attack in order to keep the threats a concern. We respond by spending a tremendous amount of money on every threat. The cummalitive effect is huge.

I agree. I do not believe that America needs any country to win a conflict. I do believe however that supporting Israel and any other country that is having conflict with Islamic radicals will help keep the wars off our soil. Once there is no one else left all eyes will be on us. I also believe that Israel is an asset when it comes to gathering intelligence on these radical groups due to their much larger network of covert spies.

As far as the election of Obama goes I do not believe the average American understands what he has done with our relations with Israel. IMO I don't believe that our relationship with Israel was on the forefront of their minds when electing Obama.

happyguy
10-19-2011, 06:44
Every American should watch the documentary on Beslan that was on HBO a month or two ago. There are some others that you can watch on line for free.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

TangoFoxtrot
10-19-2011, 07:40
When an attack happens it happens. We have been hearing stories like this for 10 years now. The problem is when an attack does occur instead of waving the flag we need to slam whoever is responsible hard. Not boots on the ground or occupation, I mean wipe out the entire grid square their leadership occupies, and don't worry about collateral damage. Let that country worry about it. We need to hit them by with what ever we have in our missle arsenal. We should start by closing our borders...Nahhhh welcome in more freeloader trash instead. :upeyes:

happyguy
10-19-2011, 08:23
When an attack happens it happens. We have been hearing stories like this for 10 years now. The problem is when an attack does occur instead of waving the flag we need to slam whoever is responsible hard. Not boots on the ground or occupation, I mean wipe out the entire grid square their leadership occupies, and don't worry about collateral damage. Let that country worry about it. We need to hit them by with what ever we have in our missle arsenal. We should start by closing our borders...Nahhhh welcome in more freeloader trash instead. :upeyes:

I agree. An attack on the U.S. should bring down such death and destruction on a region that NO ONE WHO SURVIVES WILL EVER CONSIDER IT AGAIN.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

lawman800
10-19-2011, 09:42
:shocked:I agree. An attack on the U.S. should bring down such death and destruction on a region that NO ONE WHO SURVIVES WILL EVER CONSIDER IT AGAIN.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Disagree. No survivors. Period. Give nobody a chance to rethink. Let those who have the same thought have nobody to talk to because they are all dead. Total war. Raze the place to the ground. Which in some cases, won't take much work....

Also, watch "Obsession". It's a training video we watched about extremism. It's on youtube in six parts.