Misguided Indy Mayor responsible for yet another violent assault [Archive] - Glock Talk

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beforeobamabans
06-18-2011, 03:25
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110618/NEWS02/106180326/2nd-teen-witness-Monon-shooting?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|News|p

Unstated by the local media is the true cause for yet another violent assault in an Indy Park. Mayor Greg Ballard (R), an ex-marine no less, has been outspoken in support of the city's policy of disarming law-abiding citizens in all of it's parks. Known as 'gun-free zones' for the good guys, all the punks and perps have turned the popular running/walking/biking pathway called The Monon Trail and other city parks into shooting galleries.

Unfortunately for Hoosier citizens, the new state pre-emption law was watered down to exclude municipal owned properties.

cadillacguns
06-18-2011, 03:33
And claims Park Rangers (Squirrel Cops) are qualified for city patrol too. I mean no disrespect, cause when I have to ever call 911, I don't care who shows up, but when MR. Ranger Sir is the first responder to a bank robbery, it makes you wonder where the heck is all the IMPD oficers at?

I carry concealed and they would have to be arresting me for UGLY IN PUBLIC and frisking me prior to arrest before ever knowing I had a Glock on board. Back in the day we would run the Monan Trail un armed, but that was a bunch of Deputies in mass, and one had at least a radio/cell phone someplace.

Toorop
06-18-2011, 04:07
What does him being a Marine have to do with this? And did he mug the people? If so he is at fault, if not then he is not at fault.

beforeobamabans
06-18-2011, 06:31
What does him being a Marine have to do with this? And did he mug the people? If so he is at fault, if not then he is not at fault.

I included the note about being an ex-marine because to me, that indicates that he should have a fundamental understanding of guns and gun rights. He is responsible because it is city property that he is responsible for. He sets the rules regarding public safety in this city and he has been an outspoken opponent of attempts in the city-council to overturn the local ban on legal carry on city owned property. So, he has stripped us of our right of self defense then failed to provide any security in it's place. In other words, he has created a perfect environment for the thugs and punks to prey on the good citizens of Indianapolis. This is unforgivable and will cost him re-election.

RussP
06-18-2011, 06:58
What does him being a Marine have to do with this? And did he mug the people? If so he is at fault, if not then he is not at fault.
I included the note about being an ex-marine because to me, that indicates that he should have a fundamental understanding of guns and gun rights. He is responsible because it is city property that he is responsible for. He sets the rules regarding public safety in this city and he has been an outspoken opponent of attempts in the city-council to overturn the local ban on legal carry on city owned property. So, he has stripped us of our right of self defense then failed to provide any security in it's place. In other words, he has created a perfect environment for the thugs and punks to prey on the good citizens of Indianapolis. This is unforgivable and will cost him re-election.
I do believe that answered your question, Toorop.

beforeobamabans, I bulleted your points. You say "ex-marine". Did he receive an other than Honorable Discharge or was he kicked out of The Corps? If not, he's a Marine, former Marine if you want.

Also, I do not agree that being a Marine means he understands gun rights. I would say that he does understand. He just doesn't look at them in the same light as you and I do. What was his position on guns when he was elected?

beforeobamabans
06-18-2011, 09:33
I do believe that answered your question, Toorop.

beforeobamabans, I bulleted your points. You say "ex-marine". Did he receive an other than Honorable Discharge or was he kicked out of The Corps? If not, he's a Marine, former Marine if you want.

Also, I do not agree that being a Marine means he understands gun rights. I would say that he does understand. He just doesn't look at them in the same light as you and I do. What was his position on guns when he was elected?
Former Marine it is. In bolding my comments, you chose not to highlight my qualifier, "to me". I don't necessarily expect that to mean the same thing to you. But, when he was a candidate for office, the mayor certainly paraded that experience as one of his qualifications for leadership. So, it's fair game in this particular situation AFAIC. YMMV. No knock on the corps is intended.

RussP
06-18-2011, 10:42
Former Marine it is. In bolding my comments, you chose not to highlight my qualifier, "to me". I don't necessarily expect that to mean the same thing to you. But, when he was a candidate for office, the mayor certainly paraded that experience as one of his qualifications for leadership. So, it's fair game in this particular situation AFAIC. YMMV. No knock on the corps is intended.Developing leadership abilities from serving in the Marines, yes, perhaps. Developing a working knowledge of the 2nd Amendment and firearms laws from Marine training, I don't know...

Shinesintx
06-18-2011, 10:50
What does him being a Marine have to do with this? And did he mug the people? If so he is at fault, if not then he is not at fault.

I included the note about being an ex-marine because to me, that indicates that he should have a fundamental understanding of guns and gun rights. He is responsible because it is city property that he is responsible for. He sets the rules regarding public safety in this city and he has been an outspoken opponent of attempts in the city-council to overturn the local ban on legal carry on city owned property. So, he has stripped us of our right of self defense then failed to provide any security in it's place. In other words, he has created a perfect environment for the thugs and punks to prey on the good citizens of Indianapolis. This is unforgivable and will cost him re-election.

Toorop, you might feel more at home over at Democraticunderground.com. I have a feeling your postings might generally be more accepted there.

Snowman92D
06-18-2011, 15:57
...all the punks and perps have turned the popular running/walking/biking pathway called The Monon Trail and other city parks into shooting galleries.

Well...armed or unarmed, I think I'd avoid the Nairobi Trail until something is done about the thugs-per-square-foot running around there. Part of being a thinking defensive shooter involves recognizing and avoiding trouble. Having said that, I think our current mayor isn't overwhelmingly pro-gun, but he would respond to political pressure to dump that local ordinance banning firearms in city parks. The Park Rangers don't go overboard looking for patrons carrying concealed anyway. From what I've seen, you'd damn near have to OC for them to bother you.

kensteele
06-18-2011, 17:29
Individuals who serve in the military don't as a whole have a predominant position either way when it comes to firearms in the hands of civilians for personal protection. If you elected him because he was a former marine and you thought he might be pro-gun because of his military service, you could be off the mark a little bit.

IndyGunFreak
06-18-2011, 18:42
Well...armed or unarmed, I think I'd avoid the Nairobi Trail until something is done about the thugs-per-square-foot running around there. Part of being a thinking defensive shooter involves recognizing and avoiding trouble. Having said that, I think our current mayor isn't overwhelmingly pro-gun, but he would respond to political pressure to dump that local ordinance banning firearms in city parks. The Park Rangers don't go overboard looking for patrons carrying concealed anyway. From what I've seen, you'd damn near have to OC for them to bother you.

Absolutely agree. I have dealt w/ Park Rangers on a couple of occasions, and most have seemed to be OK guys to me. However, as much as I'd like to use the Monon, it's just not gonna happen, armed or unarmed. There are certain parts I would go on (the northern parts)... but the Monon Trail is long, and it just goes through some really bad areas. No thanks.

Also, according to this, Indy Parks will allow firearms in accordance w/ the new law.. isn't the Monon under Indy Parks? http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28198440/detail.html

IGF

Snowman92D
06-18-2011, 19:54
Yeah...I just checked and this new state statute pre-empts the older local ordninance. Nice catch. :thumbsup:

"State Rep. Mike Speedy, R-Indianapolis, sponsored the bill in the Indiana House.
"This law only speaks to those that have permits that are law-abiding citizens," Speedy said, adding that it opens up local governments to litigation if they pass contradicting ordinances.
"I feel like it's a fundamental freedom to have the right to protect yourself, the right to self-preservation," Speedy said."

The Nairobi is part of the Parks system as are the other dedicated greenways.

Louisville Glocker
06-18-2011, 21:55
New law goes into effect July 1. Guns will be allowed.

beforeobamabans
06-19-2011, 05:10
Also, according to this, Indy Parks will allow firearms in accordance w/ the new law.. isn't the Monon under Indy Parks? http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28198440/detail.html

IGF
Interesting. I read the statute a while ago and remember it containing an exception for municipal property and assumed the Indy Parks law would stay in place. I'll have to take another look.

Yes, the Monon is a city park. And, the latest shooting was near 86th street in the "good" part of town.

Edit: here's the bill. No mention of the exception. Must have gotten it taken out. Good for Rep Speedy!

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2011/IN/IN1540.1.html

IndyGunFreak
06-19-2011, 11:00
Interesting. I read the statute a while ago and remember it containing an exception for municipal property and assumed the Indy Parks law would stay in place. I'll have to take another look.

Yes, the Monon is a city park. And, the latest shooting was near 86th street in the "good" part of town.

Edit: here's the bill. No mention of the exception. Must have gotten it taken out. Good for Rep Speedy!

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2011/IN/IN1540.1.html

I was actually referring to the parts that are not in Indpls... but I've been on the trail a few times in the 96th street area, and it's pretty quiet for the most part. Crime can happen anywhere, the Monon is no different. Actually, given the seclusion of the trail from traffic, etc.. it's probably a criminals dream.

IGF

Bren
06-20-2011, 14:44
Former Marine it is.

Off topic, but - every "former" Marine I know says this (a lot of them end up in the Army, somehow). It has crossed my mind that "former Marine" means "not a Marine anymore" just as much as "ex-Marine." What's up with that?

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 11:16
I'm new to the state, and live in the Indy area. I'm also new to carrying. (haven't done it yet, will in a week or so.) I need to make sure I understand the laws here, especially the new ones. As of July 1, is it true that we can carry in parks or state parks? Can anyone spell all this out for me in layman's terms? Thanks!

Toorop
06-21-2011, 11:24
I do believe that answered your question, Toorop.

It was pretty much covered. I just think it is not a good idea to assume all military or former military are pro-gun.

Toorop
06-21-2011, 11:27
Toorop, you might feel more at home over at Democraticunderground.com. I have a feeling your postings might generally be more accepted there. No I am quite content here. But thanks for the suggestion.

beforeobamabans
06-21-2011, 13:37
I'm new to the state, and live in the Indy area. I'm also new to carrying. (haven't done it yet, will in a week or so.) I need to make sure I understand the laws here, especially the new ones. As of July 1, is it true that we can carry in parks or state parks? Can anyone spell all this out for me in layman's terms? Thanks!

Welcome to Indy and to GT. The new law is a "pre-emption" law in that it declares that local jurisdictions cannot enact laws that supersede state law. So, it voids local statutes like the one banning legal carry in Indy Parks such as the Monon Trail. Indiana law says you cannot remove your handgun from your place of residence or business without a permit called the LTCH or License to Carry Handgun (the one exception is to transport it to a gunsmith for repair). Once you have the LTCH, you can carry open or concealed, there is no distinction. However, there are several 'no carry zones' in Indiana law that you need to familiarize yourself with. And I will tell you this: do not rely on me or anyone else for information about the law. If you are going to carry, you need to have a first hand understanding of the laws. So do some research. Print off the relevant statutes so you will have a handy reference. And remember, current law consists of statute + case law so you really ought to do some reading of the case law to learn how the statutes have been interpreted and modified by the courts.

amd65
06-21-2011, 13:56
I have met many ex military, including former marines, who are either ambivalent about firearms, or blatantly anti-gun.

IndyGunFreak
06-21-2011, 14:07
I'm new to the state, and live in the Indy area. I'm also new to carrying. (haven't done it yet, will in a week or so.) I need to make sure I understand the laws here, especially the new ones. As of July 1, is it true that we can carry in parks or state parks? Can anyone spell all this out for me in layman's terms? Thanks!

handgunlaw.us and print off the page for Indiana.

Just make sure you have an Indiana License to Carry (assuming you're now a resident of indiana)... Indiana has no provision for carry w/o a license, and if you are a resident, you cannot use a "non-resident" permit.

Where in Indy are you?

IGF

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 14:26
Welcome to Indy and to GT. The new law is a "pre-emption" law in that it declares that local jurisdictions cannot enact laws that supersede state law. So, it voids local statutes like the one banning legal carry in Indy Parks such as the Monon Trail. Indiana law says you cannot remove your handgun from your place of residence or business without a permit called the LTCH or License to Carry Handgun (the one exception is to transport it to a gunsmith for repair). Once you have the LTCH, you can carry open or concealed, there is no distinction. However, there are several 'no carry zones' in Indiana law that you need to familiarize yourself with. And I will tell you this: do not rely on me or anyone else for information about the law. If you are going to carry, you need to have a first hand understanding of the laws. So do some research. Print off the relevant statutes so you will have a handy reference. And remember, current law consists of statute + case law so you really ought to do some reading of the case law to learn how the statutes have been interpreted and modified by the courts.

Thanks for the welcome, and for the excellent post. I have my LTCH (although it went through the wash a few weeks ago, debating on if I want to replace it), and I'll take your advice in printing out the laws, and reading the case laws!

handgunlaw.us and print off the page for Indiana.

Just make sure you have an Indiana License to Carry (assuming you're now a resident of indiana)... Indiana has no provision for carry w/o a license, and if you are a resident, you cannot use a "non-resident" permit.

Where in Indy are you?

IGF

I applied for my LTCH way back in September, as I was shooting (pun intended) for armed security jobs. They didn't pan out, but hey, I got the license.

I am on the southeast side, off Brookville. Close to Pop Guns!

IndyGunFreak
06-21-2011, 14:30
Thanks for the welcome, and for the excellent post. I have my LTCH (although it went through the wash a few weeks ago, debating on if I want to replace it), and I'll take your advice in printing out the laws, and reading the case laws!



I applied for my LTCH way back in September, as I was shooting (pun intended) for armed security jobs. They didn't pan out, but hey, I got the license.

I am on the southeast side, off Brookville. Close to Pop Guns!

Cool.. Beech Grove here (south side of Indy).

FWIW, I've yet to find any major inaccuracies on handgunlaw.us and it's Indiana page.

1 old 0311
06-21-2011, 14:32
Toorop, you might feel more at home over at Democraticunderground.com. I have a feeling your postings might generally be more accepted there.


So you are entitled to a OPINION but he is not? :whistling::whistling:

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 14:36
Cool.. Beech Grove here (south side of Indy).

FWIW, I've yet to find any major inaccuracies on handgunlaw.us and it's Indiana page.

Nice. I love Beech Grove Firearms. Waiting for their new range to open up!

beforeobamabans
06-21-2011, 15:31
Thanks for the welcome, and for the excellent post. I have my LTCH (although it went through the wash a few weeks ago, debating on if I want to replace it), and I'll take your advice in printing out the laws, and reading the case laws!

Most LTCH'ers take their new pink document to a copy store, pick out matching paper, photocopy and laminate three or four versions, then put the original back in the safe. Then I put a copy in my wallet, another in my car etc.

Also, check out "Marion County Fish & Game" in Speedway for a range membership. Shooting outside is the ticket, even in the winter. $125 first year, $100/yr renewals. Best deal in town and a great place to shoot. Lots of organized events if you're into that.

http://www.indyrange.org/

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 15:54
Most LTCH'ers take their new pink document to a copy store, pick out matching paper, photocopy and laminate three or four versions, then put the original back in the safe. Then I put a copy in my wallet, another in my car etc.

Also, check out "Marion County Fish & Game" in Speedway for a range membership. Shooting outside is the ticket, even in the winter. $125 first year, $100/yr renewals. Best deal in town and a great place to shoot. Lots of organized events if you're into that.

http://www.indyrange.org/

Thank you very much! I've had my eye on Marion County Fish & Game for a while now - almost joined in March or so. Startin' a brand new job tomorrow and I think I may join that soon!

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 16:02
...I can't find what types of guns/ammo they allow there. I remember reading it on their old site, but I don't see it here.

IndyGunFreak
06-21-2011, 16:10
...I can't find what types of guns/ammo they allow there. I remember reading it on their old site, but I don't see it here.

MCFG, allows:

NO MAGNUM Handgun Rounds
No .223, 30-06, etc

That pretty much is the extent of what they don't allow as best as I can remember (been a member so long, and its been a while since I read the rules).

Handgun rounds are fine (as long as it's not a magnum.
Small rifle calibers (.22) are fine. IIRC, there is some rule about rifle that shoot handgun calibers.. but I don't recall it.
Shotgun is fine
Muzzle Loaders are fine

IGF

Tranquillity
06-21-2011, 17:00
MCFG, allows:

NO MAGNUM Handgun Rounds
No .223, 30-06, etc

That pretty much is the extent of what they don't allow as best as I can remember (been a member so long, and its been a while since I read the rules).

Handgun rounds are fine (as long as it's not a magnum.
Small rifle calibers (.22) are fine. IIRC, there is some rule about rifle that shoot handgun calibers.. but I don't recall it.
Shotgun is fine
Muzzle Loaders are fine

IGF

Thanks!

Sorry for derailing this thread everyone...:embarassed:

cadillacguns
06-22-2011, 02:30
bfo, I thought I was slick with that trick, I took my LTCH to Kinko's on 96th St, made a few copies, put the original in my wallet, and have/had one copy in my car, one in my locked secure car safe, and a copy in my never gonna use it again De Santis fanny pack.

IndyGunFreak
06-22-2011, 13:01
bfo, I thought I was slick with that trick, I took my LTCH to Kinko's on 96th St, made a few copies, put the original in my wallet, and have/had one copy in my car, one in my locked secure car safe, and a copy in my never gonna use it again De Santis fanny pack.

I'm gonna do that if I ever have to replace mine (which I probably will, because the corner has torn off of mine badly after the lamination came apart)

IGF

beforeobamabans
06-26-2011, 07:09
I found the section of the pre-emption law that concerned me, so I'll ask again. In light of this, will it be legal to carry in Indy Parks after July 1 or still illegal?


Information Maintained by the Office of Code Revision Indiana Legislative Services Agency
IC 35-47-11
**** Chapter 11. Local Regulation of Firearms
IC 35-47-11-1
Applicability of chapter
**** Sec. 1. (a) This chapter applies to all units (as defined in IC*36-1-2-23).
****(b) This chapter does not affect the validity of an ordinance adopted before, and in effect on, January 1, 1994.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.13. Amended by P.L.90-2010, SEC.8.

IC 35-47-11-2
Regulation of firearms by units other than townships
**** Sec. 2. Notwithstanding IC*36-1-3, a unit may not regulate in any manner the ownership, possession, sale, transfer, or transportation of firearms (as defined in IC*35-47-1-5) or ammunition except as follows:
********(1) This chapter does not apply to land, buildings, or other real property owned or administered by a unit, except highways (as defined in IC*8-23-1-23) or public highways (as defined in IC*8-2.1-17-14).
********(2) Notwithstanding the limitation in this section, a unit may use the unit's planning and zoning powers under IC*36-7-4 to prohibit the sale of firearms within two hundred (200) feet of a school by a person having a business that did not sell firearms within two hundred (200) feet of a school before April 1, 1994.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.13. Amended by P.L.90-2010, SEC.9.

Snowman92D
06-26-2011, 13:02
It will be legal. The Metro PD and Park Rangers I've spoken with understand it will be legal. Frankly, with regard to the Nairobi Trail, I think they're looking forward to it.