Interesting times we live in folks, all of those capacity threads... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Aeroscoper
06-19-2011, 09:13
The capacity and mindset topics should be taken more seriously here on out:

http://www.instapaper.com/m?u=http%3a%2f%2fwww.foxnews.com%2fus%2f2011%2f06%2f18%2ftop-five-most-brazen-flash-mob-robberies%2f#section-content

And I chose now to have kids, great!

collim1
06-19-2011, 09:23
That the old "smash and grab", nothing new, been real popular in other parts of the world for years.

Ruggles
06-19-2011, 09:32
Honestly if you, I or anyone else is attacked by a organized "mob" of people all the capacity in the world is going to be irrelevant.

beforeobamabans
06-19-2011, 09:43
Honestly if you, I or anyone else is attacked by a organized "mob" of people all the capacity in the world is going to be irrelevant.
It won't be irrelevant for the first dozen or so.

collim1
06-19-2011, 09:51
In that situation its time, not capacity, that is against you.

crsuribe
06-19-2011, 10:14
That's why I open carry my M-60 like John R. taught me in the 80's. I don't mess around in this dangerous dangerous times!

alba666
06-19-2011, 10:51
In the first two places noted (DC, Chicago), there is no credible threat of legally armed civilian resistance. So a flash mob has no fear of deadly force. In addition, Corporate America is so liability shy that an employee legally defending themselves gets fired (i.e. Walgreens). So a non-assault flash mob has little to worry about.

David Armstrong
06-19-2011, 11:01
Honestly if you, I or anyone else is attacked by a organized "mob" of people all the capacity in the world is going to be irrelevant.
dingdingdingdingding! We have a winner!

IndyGunFreak
06-19-2011, 11:36
In that situation its time, not capacity, that is against you.

Bingo.

Most likely after the first shots go off, the crowd is gonna scatter like cockroaches.

IGF

steveksux
06-19-2011, 11:42
Bingo.

Most likely after the first shots go off, the crowd is gonna scatter like cockroaches.

IGFOr you're swarmed and overwhelmed.

Randy

happyguy
06-19-2011, 12:04
Honestly if you, I or anyone else is attacked by a organized "mob" of people all the capacity in the world is going to be irrelevant.

No one wants to die for a bag of potato chips. I'd wager the rest of the mob will rethink their new found form of recreation if a couple of them get shot.

These people aren't revolutionaries or jihadists.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Agonizer
06-19-2011, 12:12
This is the reason I always carry fragmentation grenades.

G31
06-19-2011, 14:03
You could be overwhelmed long before you get your gun out.
You could get a few shots off and the rest run.
You could do the same and get overwhelmed.
You could hit 30-for-30 with your 15-round 9mm and backup mag and be unharmed.
You could run out of ammo before they all get to you...

Possibilities are endless, but the likeliness of some of these occurring are "not very" at best. Maybe along the lines of getting struck by lightning twice in the same day. That said, I am fully aware many, many violent crimes are committed by multiple subjects. Being robbed by 2-4 people while jogging the trail in the evening is probably more likely that being attacked by 20, and as likely as the overplayed "sole armed robber in the back alley" everyone imagines.

I would be more interested in what is considered justifiable, should the situation show itself. I'm not gonna step in the way of a massive shoplifting attempt, but a group armed with baseball bats might be a different story, should they put their interest toward hurting me. If they're on top of you, you're likely hosed no matter what, but of course, you keep trying.

I subscribe to capacity over caliber, mainly due to my training and not knowing whether I'll need it or not, but put both way down the list from tactics, situational awareness, and using your head during fight-or-flight. This would be a situation where you need all of it, unfortunately. The choice of gun because it "feels good in your hands" is at the very bottom of my list, right next to throwing rocks. I am of the opinion that I should use the most efficient weapon for the purpose. It is no harder to carry a G26/27/33 vs. a Taurus 85, or other revolver out there, and benefit from having 2x the rounds on-hand. You can have all the skill and training in the world, but are useless if you run out of ammo. Others have differing opinions here, and feel nearly certain that you can improvise easily. I agree slightly, because I believe it to a point, but do not think you can make the impossible become possible by improvising alone. I will say if you have adequate training, you should be able to master any gun handed to you, with a little practice, which is why I don't buy the old advice of "you should get the one you shoot best naturally," or "too bad this police dept. doesn't allow officer choice." If you use something long enough with enough intensity, you will be best with it, even if it's not your favorite (provided you compare guns of the same class, not a .22 vs. a .44, or something as ridiculous). A gun really is merely a tool; the user dictates how well it performs, but the user can't make it work when it's not able to function because it is missing something essential (like a framing nailer without nails, or gun without ammo). This is why I discredit the idea that someone insists they should carry their 5" 1911 because they shoot it the best. They shoot it the best because they haven't retrained their self on something else.

The big reason I go with capacity is that I've studied and seen my fair share of shootings, and realize the mythical "one-shot stop" is nonsense. One person can take as many rounds as you throw at them, or one...it's not certain, even with hits that you think are good, or are close. I realize that an old statistic places the avg. gun fight between 2-3 rounds, but averages do NOT suggest the norm, only an average. If you want to count on a statistical avg., then go for it. I'm not a statistician, but have done enough stats in college to know I wouldn't be silly enough to trust them for this purpose. The way I train involves multiple rounds per subject, regardless of caliber, so it makes no sense for me to handicap myself with capacity issues. I might fire two...maybe I fire six, depending on what it takes to see the person stop the attack. I will assess when the gun is down, or the person is.

Then again, I could carry 25 rounds and need 26 just for one person, but I can't plan for everything. I can make my chances better with situations less extreme, though; more so than only having 5 rounds on me. Should I burn through all 5 rounds hitting one guy COM and another attacker is present, what do I do then?

That's my take.

VADuckHunter
06-19-2011, 16:44
It won't be irrelevant for the first dozen or so.

Kinda ignorant to say... I doubt you would even get 4 before you were overwhelmed, unless you were carrying an assault rifle. That is counting on them being determined to get you. The police really need to get on this, or there needs to be special self-defense law written for this situation.

That being said, if it happened to me and i had a gun, i would draw it. Hopefully that would be enough. If they were trying to kill me, well... I would go out blazing with my boots on. Thats pretty much the most you can ask for in that situation.

Ruggles
06-19-2011, 17:41
No one wants to die for a bag of potato chips. I'd wager the rest of the mob will rethink their new found form of recreation if a couple of them get shot.

These people aren't revolutionaries or jihadists.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

1. Stop doing whatever in the hell you doing to that cat! Not sure if it is perverse or mean but just stop it!

2. I was implying if someone was attacked by a mob, I though (hoped) the OP was doing the same. If said mob is doing a smash and grab I am not going to start shooting at them, to do so might just get them to turn towards me and mine. :dunno:

Ruggles
06-19-2011, 17:43
It won't be irrelevant for the first dozen or so.

You are a Bad Mofo sir :wavey:

degoodman
06-19-2011, 18:06
It won't be irrelevant for the first dozen or so.

and exactly how long does it take you to engage 12 distinct targets on a static range, with a couple rounds each, including reloads? Just wondering, because if you can do that before they can get to you with fists or bullets you have missed your calling, because Doug Koenig, Dave Sevigny and Robbie Laetham don't stand a chance against the likes of you.

As usual this article is a little light on details, but it seems like they're mixing a reported gang assault, the chicago incident that we've now been over about twenty different ways from sunday, with what amounts to mass shoplifting offenses. in the case of the mass shoplifting offenses, exactly what part of a teenager stealing a bag of chips justifies the presentation of a firearm in any way shape or form?

HKLovingIT
06-19-2011, 22:02
You'll need to get training from this dude if you wish to survive something like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PWaJ6URRU0

Ruggles
06-19-2011, 22:08
You'll need to get training from this dude if you wish to survive something like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PWaJ6URRU0

:rofl:

Or one of these guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvucf5TBoQU

Capacity was not a issue for them thank God.

happyguy
06-20-2011, 05:55
1. Stop doing whatever in the hell you doing to that cat! Not sure if it is perverse or mean but just stop it!
:

:wavey::supergrin:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

cowboy1964
06-20-2011, 09:00
No need to get into fantasy land to justify high caps. You can always find cases where 2 or 3 perps required 8, 10, 15 rounds to stop/fight off. One of Ayoob's columns a few months ago talked about a case where a cop dumped 13 .45s from his Glock 21 at ONE guy. Guy took 7 or 8 hits IIRC and survived. Then there was the retired Marine who dumped 8 at two bad guys during a store robbery and fumbled on his reload.

Bren
06-20-2011, 09:12
No need to get into fantasy land to justify high caps. You can always find cases where 2 or 3 perps required 8, 10, 15 rounds to stop/fight off. One of Ayoob's columns a few months ago talked about a case where a cop dumped 13 .45s from his Glock 21 at ONE guy. Guy took 7 or 8 hits IIRC and survived. Then there was the retired Marine who dumped 8 at two bad guys during a store robbery and fumbled on his reload.

There was a case near here that I use in training sometimes, where the police fired 20+ 9mm's with 13 hits, including shots through major bones, and the guy got back up off the ground and kept coming, so they shot him in the head with the 14th.

G31
06-20-2011, 15:16
There was a case near here that I use in training sometimes, where the police fired 20+ 9mm's with 13 hits, including shots through major bones, and the guy got back up off the ground and kept coming, so they shot him in the head with the 14th.
Guess he stayed down after that!

G31
06-20-2011, 15:22
Here's one I reference a lot: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102197/2b1COPfo.html . He hit a guy 22 times (17 of which were COM) with rounds from his G22, and he still kept fighting. Managed to get shot 4-5 times during the incident as well. The guy was drunk.

geneo696
06-21-2011, 20:09
Here's one I reference a lot: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102197/2b1COPfo.html . He hit a guy 22 times (17 of which were COM) with rounds from his G22, and he still kept fighting. Managed to get shot 4-5 times during the incident as well. The guy was drunk.

He needs to work on his head shots with a tighter grouping!! WTF 22 rounds, was he shooting at the guys big toe?