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mgentry
06-22-2011, 08:13
A friend of mine got a AR-15 22 conversion kit (Black Dog Machine LLC) for his AR. Would you put one of these in your AR? I don't like the idea of shooting lead through my AR barrel. What do you think?

Mongosafari
06-22-2011, 08:18
Don't shoot the lead bullets, shoot premium plated bullets. The instructions tell you to use hyper velocity ammo not standard with lead bullets.

Standard 22 LR rifling is 1:16" twist
Old A1's have 1:12" close and do stabalize rounds good out to 100 yards.

A2 with 1:7" (at least mine) not so well. A few keyholes and poor grouping out beyond 50 yards compared to the A1 rifle.

The cost saving for ammo/trigger time pays for itself many times over.

I have never tried a 22LR in a 1:9"....

shadow65
06-22-2011, 08:31
I use the CMMG stainless Evolution Kit with a 1/9. It will give 1.5-2" at 25 yards. It depends on ammo and your particular barrel.
Aguilla 60 gr. will hold 3/4" at 25 yards.
Always use copper wash ammo for best results. Winchester bulk, Fed bulk, both sold at WalMart.
CCI Mini Mags work great in mine but are more expensive.
Remington is one of the worst for conversions. Dirty, bullet profile is enough different to cause feeding problems.
Dave

jbremount
06-26-2011, 10:51
The CMMG stainless 22 conversion kit with my 1/9 barrel gun shoots great.

MrMurphy
06-26-2011, 10:59
Get an M&P15 .22 instead.

Shot a conversion yesterday, and shot an M&P15.22

Guess which one ran better.......

rkwrichard
06-26-2011, 11:45
I have a CMMG stainless unit and mine is a piece of junk.. I have not been able to get any ammo to run in mine and empty a full magazine without a jam.

Take the money you are going to spend on a Ar .22 conversion and put it in a 10-22 or a marlin model 60.. Why not just get about 500 rounds of good mil spec 5.56 ammo..

Money better spent..

HAIL CAESAR
06-26-2011, 13:27
Get an M&P15 .22 instead.

Shot a conversion yesterday, and shot an M&P15.22

Guess which one ran better.......

Conversions can be a royal pain to get running and then the accuracy is just so-so.

The dedicated guns seem to be MUCH better.

shadow65
06-26-2011, 15:51
I have to ask. Did you contact CMMG? It has a Lifetime warranty.
Very unusual to get one from CMMG that does not run. Now if it's an older discontinued kit sold at CDNN or CTD, I've not had experience with those.

Thats one of the issues with the conversions. People who have bad experiences with them are usually referring to the old kits by various manufactures. Those issues have been addressed.
The new Evolution kits run great.
Dave

I have a CMMG stainless unit and mine is a piece of junk.. I have not been able to get any ammo to run in mine and empty a full magazine without a jam.

Take the money you are going to spend on a Ar .22 conversion and put it in a 10-22 or a marlin model 60.. Why not just get about 500 rounds of good mil spec 5.56 ammo..

Money better spent..

rkwrichard
06-26-2011, 16:01
I have to ask. Did you contact CMMG? It has a Lifetime warranty.
Very unusual to get one from CMMG that does not run. Now if it's an older discontinued kit sold at CDNN or CTD, I've not had experience with those.

Thats one of the issues with the conversions. People who have bad experiences with them are usually referring to the old kits by various manufactures. Those issues have been addressed.
The new Evolution kits run great.
Dave

It was a new blister pack with 3 magazines purchased from Midwayusa.com this past December...

I have not tried to send it back to CMMG---yet

Deployment Solu
06-26-2011, 16:47
I have several CMMG .22 AR conv kits. They have all run flawlessly. I don't like their mags, I use Black Dog mags.

njl
06-26-2011, 20:12
I know his rep for customer service sucks, but I have a Ciener conversion I bought years ago, and it's always run just fine in my 1:9 Bushmaster.

michael e
06-26-2011, 20:14
With the price of these kits I dont understand why someone would go this route over just picking up an complete gun .

shadow65
06-27-2011, 07:15
The blister kits are the older style kits more than likely sold with 3 mags. Regardless, they still should run and are warrantied through CMMG.
If you have any issues with warranty, which I doubt you would, let me know. I do field testing for CMMG as an independent tester. I may be able to help.

Depending on where you buy a kit, you won't find a complete AR .22 for that price. Now if you go with the India kit, which is the one designed for L.E. and Military applications, then you are getting in the low price range of an upper.

The low end AR .22's are just that. Uramax, Mossy, are .22's dressed up to look like an AR.

Some others are made with plastic uppers and lowers, but are far better quality than the fakes.

The CMMG's are made with the same parts a standard AR is, minus the stainless BCG and .22lr 1/16 twist barrel.
They are designed as trainers providing the same trigger, same weight, same functioning controls as a standard AR.

Dave

njl
06-27-2011, 07:33
With the price of these kits I dont understand why someone would go this route over just picking up an complete gun .

Trigger time on the AR at a fraction of the cost (dedicated .22lr upper would be a better, but more expensive solution).

No more room in the gun safe for more rifles.

vafish
06-27-2011, 10:24
I know his rep for customer service sucks, but I have a Ciener conversion I bought years ago, and it's always run just fine in my 1:9 Bushmaster.

I have a ciener kit too. Runs fine in my 1:9 and 1:7 ar's.

toddmog
06-28-2011, 11:42
I have a ciener kit too. Runs fine in my 1:9 and 1:7 ar's.

What kind of accuracy do you get from your 1:7? I'm considering a CMMG conversion, but seem to hear mixed reviews with the 1:7.

My budget doesn't currently allow for a dedicated upper or a M&P 15-22.

boomhower
06-28-2011, 13:12
I'd either get a dedicated 22 upper with appropriate barrel or an M&P 22. Conversion kits seem to be a pain to get going right and only have so so accuracy at best when they do.

vafish
06-28-2011, 15:37
What kind of accuracy do you get from your 1:7? I'm considering a CMMG conversion, but seem to hear mixed reviews with the 1:7.

My budget doesn't currently allow for a dedicated upper or a M&P 15-22.

About two inches at 25 yards.

Not as accurate as a bolt.gun or even the marlin 60, but plenty accurate for rolling tin cans around.

I'd go.shoot some groups with it to confirm but my son has it at camp.

jbremount
06-28-2011, 22:01
I have several CMMG .22 AR conv kits. They have all run flawlessly. I don't like their mags, I use Black Dog mags.


My CMMG stainless conversion kit runs flawless. If it fails, it's because of the cheap ammo. This conversion kit runs all day with Federal bulk ammo. I park next to the pond and shoot the CMMG .22kit for a while, then the Ruger 10/22 for a while. Not enough accuracy difference to talk about...... but I will say, the AR is much more fun with my Aimpoint red dot and other goodies on it. Just swap out the BCG and you basically have your same gun. Same sights/scope/red dot...same trigger...same rails...etc/etc. All your personal goodies/mods are still there.

I think CMMG makes the best .22 conversion kits for the AR-15 rifles,period. Especially the newer kits. They have constantly improved their products and have taken the conversion kits to a very high level with their new Evolution series.

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/category/.22-Evolution-187/rec/0

jbremount
06-28-2011, 22:26
I figure a picture is worth a thousand words, so I saved this picture of the accuracy using a dedicated barrel and a conversion kit with barrels of different twists. As you can see, there is not much gain with a dedicated barrel, except an extra gun to pack. Now,if you are seriously shooting expensive .22 bullets for precision on paper..what's the point of doing it with an AR? Of course, this is my opinion. (the 1/7 accuracy was not as good as the one's posted...and results were removed..go figure)

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g153/jbremount/ComparisonTargets.jpg

mark68
06-28-2011, 23:31
i have a dedicated upper with a stainless cmmg (thank you shadow65 for your advice) and a mp 15-22. The mp 15-22 has ran like a champ, I can't say much about the accuracy since my is the pistol version. The dedicated ar-22 started out as a headache but with some insight from some wise people is now one of my favorite rifles. Mine is a blister pack kit and no problems...

1811guy
06-29-2011, 08:10
Get a conversion if you will only be doing occasional, casual plinking and don't mind a ton of carbon and vaporized lead being blown back through your gas tube into the receiver (and in your face). They are relatively cheap and convenient, but have issues including reduced accuracy through most 1:9 and 1:7 barrels.

I bought a Spike's dedicated upper and it has been a real joy to shoot. Identical in weight and function to my other lightweight carbines. I got tired of swapping out uppers and ended up building a lower for it. Some will say get a S&W. The only thing I don't like about them is they feel cheap (mostly plastic) and use a proprietary magazine. A CMMG, TacSol, or if you can find it - a used ST-22, will be a vast improvement over the S&W in terms of quality and being able to upgrade and change components as well as Gen 4 BD mags.

Stay away from anything made by Umarex (i.e, Colt, H&K). It is basically airsoft junk posing as a .22.

Gunnut 45/454
06-29-2011, 08:50
Plus 1 on the CMMG conversion kit! I have one and actually it shoots more accurately in my 1:7 20" then my 16" 1:9 -go figure.:whistling:

Rail Driver
06-29-2011, 09:31
The thing that it seems everyone is missing is that a .22LR barrel has a bore diameter of .221 which is obviously smaller than the .223 bore size of an AR-15. A dedicated .22LR upper would be much more *inherently* accurate than any converted AR-15. This is not to say that a poor shooter using a dedicated upper would still outshoot a good shooter with a conversion kit, more that if you DO intend to use an AR-22 for accuracy type shooting then you absolutely want a dedicated upper. Also, anything less than a 1:11.5 twist is probably going to tend to overstabilize the very light .22LR. If you do use a conversion kit, break it in with CCI mini mags for about 200 rds and then switch to the 60gr Aguila ammo and you'll get the best accuracy I've found with a conversion kit. Although you lose velocity with the aguila ammo, the heavier bullet runs in an AR-15 barrel better in my experience.

This is just my opinion, based on facts and on my own experience. I've owned and sold a Ceiner conversion kit, an M261 conversion kit, a CMMG dedicated upper, a CMMG conversion, and now a Chiappa dedicated upper. I preferred the CMMG upper, but the chiappa is lighter (polymer upper) and CMMG was out of stock when I was ready to buy. The CMMG dedicated upper was more accurate than my current Chiappa upper, and none of the conversions got me a group smaller than 2.5"-3" however with a dedicated upper I'm capable of about 1.5"-1.75" groups. The rifle is, I'm sure, capable of better.

thisaway
06-29-2011, 09:43
I bought an M16A1 upper and use it with my Spike's conversion. It does well for me.

1811guy
06-29-2011, 22:10
The thing that it seems everyone is missing is that a .22LR barrel has a bore diameter of .221 which is obviously smaller than the .223 bore size of an AR-15. A dedicated .22LR upper would be much more *inherently* accurate than any converted AR-15. This is not to say that a poor shooter using a dedicated upper would still outshoot a good shooter with a conversion kit, more that if you DO intend to use an AR-22 for accuracy type shooting then you absolutely want a dedicated upper. Also, anything less than a 1:11.5 twist is probably going to tend to overstabilize the very light .22LR. If you do use a conversion kit, break it in with CCI mini mags for about 200 rds and then switch to the 60gr Aguila ammo and you'll get the best accuracy I've found with a conversion kit. Although you lose velocity with the aguila ammo, the heavier bullet runs in an AR-15 barrel better in my experience.

This is just my opinion, based on facts and on my own experience. I've owned and sold a Ceiner conversion kit, an M261 conversion kit, a CMMG dedicated upper, a CMMG conversion, and now a Chiappa dedicated upper. I preferred the CMMG upper, but the chiappa is lighter (polymer upper) and CMMG was out of stock when I was ready to buy. The CMMG dedicated upper was more accurate than my current Chiappa upper, and none of the conversions got me a group smaller than 2.5"-3" however with a dedicated upper I'm capable of about 1.5"-1.75" groups. The rifle is, I'm sure, capable of better.

No opinion there - just facts. You are 100% correct. 22lr out of a 5.56 barrel is not nearly as accurate as 22lr out of a 22lr barrel.

deputy tom
06-30-2011, 18:17
Today at the range we shot a Stag carbine with a 1 in 9" and an old Colt CAR not sure what twist both with CMMG S/S .22 bolt kits.The Stag shot two inches low and a two inch group at twenty-five yards.The Colt shot a four inch group three inches left at the same distance.Both were using Federal 550 bulk pack recommended by CMMG with one FTE in the Stag and one miss-fire in the Colt.Everyone had a good day for very little money.tom.:wavey:

Gunnut 45/454
06-30-2011, 18:45
Rail Driver
As you can see by the pick below I respectfully disagree! That little 22lr bullet is micing out to .226" plenty of bullet to engage a .223 barrel rifling which runs usually at .223-4"! Most cast bullet shooters like myself run there bullet .001-2" over bore for best accuracy!:supergrin:

jbremount
07-02-2011, 06:40
Rail Driver
As you can see by the pick below I respectfully disagree! That little 22lr bullet is micing out to .226" plenty of bullet to engage a .223 barrel rifling which runs usually at .223-4"! Most cast bullet shooters like myself run there bullet .001-2" over bore for best accuracy!:supergrin:


I am not an expert on this, but I think you are correct. The .22Lr bullets are large enough to engage the rifling in your AR-15. The problem is that you cannot spin these cheaply made somewhat "off centered" bullets too fast. The faster the twist, the more inaccurate the .22LR bullets gets. The bulk .22LR bullets are not precision made bullets for this price. This is what people have been using for years to hunt squirrels,rabbits, or just plinking. The picture I posted earlier showed the results of shooting guns with different twists, and the dedicated rifle has a .22LR bore diameter barrel. Looking at the picture, the bore diameter is not the problem that causes the rifle to shoot larger groups.....spinning the .22LR bullet faster and faster with different twist is the problem.

marvin
07-02-2011, 14:59
i've got a ciener kit and it works better than it has the right to out of a 5.56 AR. first its got to jump a long way before it even reachs the rifling then the twist is all wrong, the barrel diameter is not the best for a 22 rimfire. on top of all this you can still get groups that will run under 3 inchs or better at 25 yards, all of this for under 200 bucks if you don't want to spend more for a complete rifle or an upper it's the way to go. i get mad at myself for waiting so long before i got one.

Gunnut 45/454
07-02-2011, 15:35
jbremount
Yep that and the bullets are so short! I got the bug up my arse and stuck some pulled 22LR bullet in .223 case with a light load of pistol powder just to see what they'd do- was pushing them about 1700 fps - absolute mistake ! Couldn't hit crap at 10 yards!:faint:

mixflip
07-02-2011, 15:49
If the conversion kit or upper doesnt have a last shot bolt hold open... I wouldnt want it.

denn1911
07-02-2011, 22:06
I have a CMMG conversion kit that has been very good. I have a S&W M&P15-22 now so the conversion kit is just collecting dust.

cjs83
07-03-2011, 00:22
I have the S&W M&P 15-22, it is a BLAST to shoot. Has the same controls as a standard AR, full rails to mount whatever you want. and probally will cost not much more then your conversion kit. These rifles are really starting to catch on and I can see why.

fivestar
07-03-2011, 08:00
About 2 months ago I finally picked up a stainless CMMG kit. With the exception of my HALO, its been the best money I've spent on my rifle. There are a few little jams here and there, but I'm ok with that. It's just a nice, cheap way to get a ton of trigger time on my duty rifle without spending hundreds of dollars each trip to the range. I've only shot it for 2 shooting trips, but both times I put about 400 rounds down range.

Mattkcc
07-04-2011, 18:35
I have a CMMG conversion and shoot it in a 1 in 7 barrel. It was shooting 2-3" at 25 yards depending on the ammo used. I then tried Winchester bulk and the groups shrunk to 1-1.25" which I though was pretty good for a conversion. My stock 10-22 is only slightly better. All the groups were shot with an Ultradot, could probably do better with a scope. The CMMG dedicated upper uses the 22 conversion with a dedicated 22 barrel. I bought the re-manufactured 22 conversion and a scratched AR at a gunshow from the CMMG guys. They get a lot of returned 22 conversions because owners try to break them down for cleaning and bend the rails. The unit is not made to be disassembled.