Need you opinions, please [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Poolman21
06-24-2011, 08:24
I can't make up my mind about two huge decisions regarding my AR and I would appreciate some input.

First off, I love the Aimpoint H-1 specs. I love the durability, battery life, and I especially love the weight. There is only one problem, I simply do not like the look of it on an AR. My choice is between an H-1 and an Eotech 512. I want to be able to magnify the red dot without having to use a cantilever mount, so these appear to be my best options (I'm not interested in an ACOG). So I guess it really comes down to weight vs appearance since the other differences (battery life, durability, cost) aren't large enough factors for me to base my decision on.

My next issue is my upper. I have a lightly used BCM M4 16" upper. I want to remove the fixed front sight post and put a DD low profile gas block on and a DD Lite 12" rail. So I'll have $390 in the rail and $60 in the gas block plus cost to install everything (anything else I'm missing?) and I'll still have a used upper with a carbine length gas system. I can buy a new bcm middy with the rail already installed for $875. So do you think I should just sell my upper ($400?) and buy the new one or put the money into my old one?

I've been pondering all of this for some time now and cannot seem to make up my mind. Let me know what you guys would do and why.

Thanks

MrMurphy
06-24-2011, 09:19
If you seriously are more worried about aesthetics than having a functional working optic that may save your life some day.......


You're a range commando. Sell your toys and invest in Matchbox cars.

Poolman21
06-24-2011, 09:24
If you seriously are more worried about aesthetics than having a functional working optic that may save your life some day.......


You're a range commando. Sell your toys and invest in Matchbox cars.

Please, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're saying an eotech isn't a "functional working optic"?

mjkeat
06-24-2011, 10:17
Poolman, everyone is concerned w/ the way their rifle looks. I understand you're looking for a functional higher end optic but would also like it to be appealing. Look at all the pic threads throughout the AR forums.

I personally like the looks of the H1/T1 much more than huge 512. The H1/T1 is arguably the more rugged optic but have you looked into a EoTech micro?

As far as the upper goes, if you like the m4 profile stick w/ it. BCM has great resale value and someone is always looking to get their hands on one. If you can just purchase another BCM upper and add the DD rail to it.

RMTactical
06-24-2011, 10:47
The Eotech 512 is a fine optic.

I prefer the Aimpoint, but the Eotech's have a good following for good reason.

BBJones
06-24-2011, 11:23
Please, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're saying an eotech isn't a "functional working optic"?


I think he is saying your priorities are backwards. #1 should be function and aesthetics should be somewhere around #1,000,000.

To answer your questions.
- If it were me, Aimpoint micro because of ruggedness, battery life/always on, & weight savings. Nothing wrong with an EOTech, but if given the option Aimpoint is my preference.

- I would remove your FSB and grind it down to fit under the rail. Saves you $60 plus the amount to have it installed. It is easy to do if you have a hacksaw, a dremel, and about 2 hours from start to finish. The end result will be a lightweight super sturdy low profile FSB.

Link to Surf's youtube video on how to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssdsurf#p/u/36/I5rPPyYdFUs

I did mine using same concept except with a hacksaw for the cutting and dremel for the shaping.


ETA- hard to get $400 for something used that retails for $409. Midlengths are great and would be my preference, but probably not worth the $ you will be laying out. Also, if you look around you can get 12" DD Lites for alot less than $390. I got one for $315 new and a lightly used authentic one for $290.

Poolman21
06-24-2011, 11:58
I think he is saying your priorities are backwards. #1 should be function and aesthetics should be somewhere around #1,000,000.

Function is absolutely my number one concern. I just didn't realize there was that large of a difference in function between the Aimpoint and the Eotech. I figured being an average shooter who just wants a dependable rifle, I would probably never be able to tell the difference between the function of the two. Guess I was wrong.

Thanks for the input on the shaving of the FSB, that's what I'm going to do.

MrMurphy
06-24-2011, 14:58
Aimpoints work short of catastrophic accident the vast majority of the time. I've used an abused issued ones under all conditions and they kept running.

Eotechs do have a following and in some roles (miniguns especially) they work well.

But Eotechs are a case of "when it dies" not "in a really weird incident, my optic died" and this is a known problem going back four to five generations of Eotechs. When they work great, they're awesome. Some do.

Most don't. I know of one example where a unit had 80+ issued and 70+ had to be factory replaced or rebuilt within six months. Like those odds?

I had an Eotech for a short while. I didn't pay for it. I did pay to replace it. Because if I ever have to take my rifle in hand again when it's serious I don't want a battery draining accident waiting to happen on there, i want something i've spent years training with I know works.

K. Foster
06-24-2011, 15:56
Question #1: Guns are tools. Appearance shouldn’t enter into it. Both are quality optics and you should be fine with either one. If you want the one that will take the most abuse, go Aimpoint.

Question #2: I would consider keeping the upper and just buying another one. Just a thought.

TedG
06-24-2011, 17:15
If you seriously are more worried about aI haveesthetics than having a functional working optic that may save your life some day.......


You're a range commando. Sell your toys and invest in Matchbox cars.

I have to agree.

HAIL CAESAR
06-24-2011, 21:09
Poolman, everyone is concerned w/ the way their rifle looks. I understand you're looking for a functional higher end optic but would also like it to be appealing. Look at all the pic threads throughout the AR forums.

I personally like the looks of the H1/T1 much more than huge 512. The H1/T1 is arguably the more rugged optic but have you looked into a EoTech micro?

As far as the upper goes, if you like the m4 profile stick w/ it. BCM has great resale value and someone is always looking to get their hands on one. If you can just purchase another BCM upper and add the DD rail to it.

:rofl::rofl:

If you seriously are more worried about aesthetics than having a functional working optic that may save your life some day.......


You're a range commando. Sell your toys and invest in Matchbox cars.

MrMurphy, another one of your fine posts.:wavey:

mjkeat
06-24-2011, 21:37
:rofl::rofl:



MrMurphy, another one of your fine posts.:wavey:

Then explain why the Pic thread is the biggest thread on each and every AR forum.

How many times a day does someone comment on the fit and finish of a weapon? Every day.

Play the "all I care about is functionality" all you want but anyone that says appearance isn't a factor is in denial.

Argue the point all you want but you're lying to yourself.

mike g35
06-24-2011, 21:44
Edit: Stay on topic

mike g35
06-24-2011, 21:46
By the way I prefer the aimpoint micro as well.

lawman800
06-24-2011, 22:17
I prefer the Aimpoint M4 over the H1/T1 micro for looks. It's what Sergeant Schugart used in Blackhawk Down on his M14.

I have an EOTech 517 on my M4gery and Trijicon Reflex on the other M4gery. No Aimpoint yet. It looks great.

mixflip
06-24-2011, 22:31
Since you said it yourself...you are just an average guy who wants a decent AR and optics... you need to figure out what fits you better between 2 optics that are both combat proven and are worth every penny either way.

Most LEO's use EoTechs because they are 95% used in houses and that HUGE 65 MOA reticle is lightning fast getting hits on target. Remember only hits count. Sub MOA groups really arent a concearn in this role. (gun fighting inside of a house) Plus cops arent usually in a fight no more than a few hours typically so battery life isnt a huge concearn. They often have days, weeks even months at a time to check and double check and triple check their gear before serving a high threat warrant.

Extreme battery life such as the Aimpoint is desireable for troops in far away lands where there is no back up, the calvary isnt coming...and there may not be any support for days. 6 months of constant on capability really means alot there.

Add to that the higher frequency of longer distance engagements i.e street to street or roof top to roof top..the need for a finer more precise "dot" might be more practicle than a huge 65 MOA reticle. a 1 to 10 MOA adjustable reticle might be more to your liking and needs.

Its not an asthetics thing...its a "needs" thing. What do you need? Where does your average Joe needs fit in those 2 styles of fighting/shooting?


I personally LOVE the new EoTech EXPS2 but I think an Aimpoint micro fits my needs better? When I come accross a spare $1000 I will get me a fiber optic powered Trijicon lol.

lawman800
06-24-2011, 22:49
Plus cops arent usually in a fight no more than a few hours typically so battery life isnt a huge concearn.

Where do you live that cops have to fight for no more than a few hours?

Deadly force encounters for the average street cop is over in less than a minute. Sustained firefights are the rare rare rare exception for cops. Mostly it is going to be the cop responding to a deadly threat and firing 1 shot which ends it or if the perp fires off a few shots, the cops shoot back and perp dies, the end.

mixflip
06-24-2011, 23:28
Yes exactly. Isnt that what I said? Cops arent involved in sustained firefights is basically what I meant? Yes it happens but its rare. Extremely rare. Yeah there's North Hollywood and the Circuit City stand off and other barricaded armed suspect situations where your gear may be "on" for hours but like you said...its rare.

My bad. I essentially meant cops dont need 6 months of constant on capability like soldiers do.

We had an active shooter at the federal court house last year (1 officer killed, shooter was killed also) and the entire Federal building had to be cleared. (10+ stories) It took several hours but as you said... its extrememly rare. But it does happen and that was all I meant by it.

MrMurphy
06-25-2011, 05:34
Cops need an optic that doesn't need to be turned on before a fight.

I have yet to find a cop who has an Eotech who really likes them. Most of them have them because they're issued. I 'have' during the time i was doing so professionally, sold a ton of Aimpoints to cops who had Eotechs die on rollouts (one cop had his die 3 times in 3 callouts where a rifle was involved. That one went into the trash). Not it worked then it died, it straight didn't even turn on.


I don't find the Eo ring faster indoors, but after 3 years of running around structures with an Aimpoint every single day, it's more of a training thing.

Sergeant Shughart did NOT use an Aimpoint M4 in Somalia.

Considering it was 1993, and the M4 wasn't invented until about 2.5-3 years ago.....

He had either an original Comp M or a Comp M2 (the first M68 and the first one that really had the survivable battery life, Comp M's were rugged but still didn't run too long), I'd have to check.

HAIL CAESAR
06-25-2011, 07:41
Then explain why the Pic thread is the biggest thread on each and every AR forum.

How many times a day does someone comment on the fit and finish of a weapon? Every day.

Play the "all I care about is functionality" all you want but anyone that says appearance isn't a factor is in denial.

Argue the point all you want but you're lying to yourself.

A. Some people post pics because they want to show off how "pretty" their gun is. Which is in line with "range commando".

B. Some people post pics of rifles to show how they set the rifle up for what they need to make the rifle reform for them.

A+B= ALOT.

When you were still in shortpants I was buying and requisitioning Colts that shook, rattled, and rolled straight out of the box. The finish looked like they were used.:rofl: BUT....they worked. So no, I don't give a tinkers damn about how pretty the gun is. All I care about is..does it work.

I don't care about how it looks in pics, how pretty or how black the finish is, how the upper color matches the lower, is the gun the new must have brand name fad gun for college commandos and 400 lb Special Forces wannabee's.

Poolman21,

Do not get caught up on looks. Find out what you prefer and need. Then get that.

And neither SFC Randall D. Shugart nor Master Sergeant Gary Gordon used a M4 sight.

lawman800
06-25-2011, 11:27
My mistake in stating it was an Aimpoint M4. I was just going off that clip in Blackhawk down where he was going at it with the M14 and I didn't even think which one it really was other than that I want the M4 on my Scout Squad.

HAIL CAESAR
06-25-2011, 11:48
My mistake in stating it was an Aimpoint M4. I was just going off that clip in Blackhawk down where he was going at it with the M14 and I didn't even think which one it really was other than that I want the M4 on my Scout Squad.

No problems partner. Movies are just that....movies. You wouldn't believe all the A3's in Vietnam .......:rofl:

M&P15T
06-25-2011, 11:49
A. Some people post pics because they want to show off how "pretty" their gun is. Which is in line with "range commando".

B. Some people post pics of rifles to show how they set the rifle up for what they need to make the rifle reform for them.

A+B= ALOT.

When you were still in shortpants I was buying and requisitioning Colts that shook, rattled, and rolled straight out of the box. The finish looked like they were used.:rofl: BUT....they worked. So no, I don't give a tinkers damn about how pretty the gun is. All I care about is..does it work.

I don't care about how it looks in pics, how pretty or how black the finish is, how the upper color matches the lower, is the gun the new must have brand name fad gun for college commandos and 400 lb Special Forces wannabee's.

Poolman21,

Do not get caught up on looks. Find out what you prefer and need. Then get that.

And neither SFC Randall D. Shugart nor Master Sergeant Gary Gordon used a M4 sight.

It's odd, different people like things for different reasons.

It's the OP's AR, not yours. What you like or don't like is not the question. Obiously, what the OP prefers and needs is what he likes, and if aesthetics plays a part in decisions, that's fine.

HAIL CAESAR
06-25-2011, 12:38
It's odd, different people like things for different reasons.

It's the OP's AR, not yours. What you like or don't like is not the question. Obiously, what the OP prefers and needs is what he likes, and if aesthetics plays a part in decisions, that's fine.

Your kind of making my point for me. It is his and he can buy what he wants. But it is better to buy something useful that looks just ok, then to buy pretty but worthless.

lawman800
06-25-2011, 12:46
No problems partner. Movies are just that....movies. You wouldn't believe all the A3's in Vietnam .......:rofl:

You mean you don't cock the hammer on a Glock?

HAIL CAESAR
06-25-2011, 13:11
You mean you don't cock the hammer on a Glock?

Not unless the Director wants you to. And six foot fireballs for muzzle flash is optional too.

lawman800
06-25-2011, 15:04
Not unless the Director wants you to. And six foot fireballs for muzzle flash is optional too.

True. It makes no sense to cock the hammer of a Glock unless you also flick off the safety while you do it. Otherwise the gun wouldn't fire.

mjkeat
06-25-2011, 15:54
A. Some people post pics because they want to show off how "pretty" their gun is. Which is in line with "range commando".

B. Some people post pics of rifles to show how they set the rifle up for what they need to make the rifle reform for them.

A+B= ALOT.

When you were still in shortpants I was buying and requisitioning Colts that shook, rattled, and rolled straight out of the box. The finish looked like they were used.:rofl: BUT....they worked. So no, I don't give a tinkers damn about how pretty the gun is. All I care about is..does it work.

I don't care about how it looks in pics, how pretty or how black the finish is, how the upper color matches the lower, is the gun the new must have brand name fad gun for college commandos and 400 lb Special Forces wannabee's.


What I would give to live a life of denial.

HAIL CAESAR
06-26-2011, 08:48
What I would give to live a life of denial.

What I would have given to live a life where all my gun purchases, requisitions, and issue pieces would have been based on the following critieria;

How pretty they are.
What will my friends think? Will they think the gun, and I, are cool?
What will all the people at the range think? Will they think I am cool?
Will other people on the internet approve and think I am cool?
What is the latest fad?
How much is my Pell Grant check and what can I purchase with that money?

lawman800
06-26-2011, 11:53
What I would have given to live a life where all my gun purchases, requisitions, and issue pieces would have been based on the following critieria;

How pretty they are.
What will my friends think? Will they think the gun, and I, are cool?
What will all the people at the range think? Will they think I am cool?
Will other people on the internet approve and think I am cool?
What is the latest fad?
How much is my Pell Grant check and what can I purchase with that money?

That pretty much takes out 95% of online warriors/keyboard commandos.

surf
06-26-2011, 12:29
Seems that most EoTech issues were earlier models.

I have an EoTech 553 and it is issued. I also own several EoTech's purchased on my own. I also own a T1. I prefer the EoTech for my domestic duties. I have access to batteries and change them routinely (every several months) so that is not an issue. I very much prefer the reticle over the single dot, but that is preference. The larger ring is quicker for myself up close, the lower hash can be used for precision at 10m or so, the smaller 1moa dot is better for precision at distance, I can use the 65MOA ring for ranging and leads a bit quicker at distance.

I will admit that the 553's that I use have had the battery compartment spring kit "fix". Only a couple showed this trait but they were all swapped out with no issues since.

I prefer the EoTech and I know tons of cops locally and nationwide that have a preference for the EoTech. I will readily admit however that if I were to go to a foreign country and into battle for long long extended periods of time, I might opt for the T1 purely because I wouldn't be sure of my ability to access batteries. I mean I would need to be out in the field for months upon months without battery access. Then no doubt, I would prefer the T1.

lawman800
06-26-2011, 14:14
My EOTech will be just fine for my domestic needs at home. If I worried about being without resupplies for a long time, I will use my AR with the Trijicon and bam, zero battery life issues!

AK_Stick
06-26-2011, 14:25
Now that I've got quite a bit of time behind both an EO and a Aimpoint on deployment, I can say without question I do not care for the Aimpoint method of doing things.


However, I will never bring another EO to war, unless its mounted on a belt fed of some sort.

The battery issue, isn't really a big deal to me, as I've never been to the field for a long enough time to have to need more than a set of spares. But it its nice carrying a single extra battery.

My issue is more that the EO is a fairly temperamental peice of equipment. Some of them, like my 513, work just fine, after 5 years of constant use, including a deployment. Some of them don't work a week after they come out of the box. And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of rhyme or reason as to which you get.

mjkeat
06-26-2011, 20:34
What I would have given to live a life where all my gun purchases, requisitions, and issue pieces would have been based on the following critieria;

How pretty they are.
What will my friends think? Will they think the gun, and I, are cool?
What will all the people at the range think? Will they think I am cool?
Will other people on the internet approve and think I am cool?
What is the latest fad?
How much is my Pell Grant check and what can I purchase with that money?

I guess you're the rare exception that has never made a purchase based on the fact it made you happy.

I'm also curious as to why you have such an obsession w/ college students. The majority of your posts contain some sort of derogatory comment toward people in search of higher learning. Is it jealousy? Its never to late to return to school. They even have online courses now.

eracer
06-26-2011, 20:39
There's nothing wrong with taking pride in a gun well done.

MrMurphy
06-27-2011, 00:20
Now that I've got quite a bit of time behind both an EO and a Aimpoint on deployment, I can say without question I do not care for the Aimpoint method of doing things.


However, I will never bring another EO to war, unless its mounted on a belt fed of some sort.

The battery issue, isn't really a big deal to me, as I've never been to the field for a long enough time to have to need more than a set of spares. But it its nice carrying a single extra battery.

My issue is more that the EO is a fairly temperamental peice of equipment. Some of them, like my 513, work just fine, after 5 years of constant use, including a deployment. Some of them don't work a week after they come out of the box. And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of rhyme or reason as to which you get.


And thus my problem with Eo's..... some work great, some don't work at all, and you don't know which you've got. I actually like the Eo reticle, but reliability, above all else, means the Aimpoint gets my vote.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 07:13
My experience pretty much mirrors Surf, AK-Stick, and Mr Murphy. (Posts 31, 33, and 36,)

I have had zero issues with 552's and 551's. (Knock on wood).
But I have known several that have had issues that went beyond battery replacement needs. Most were older models, but a few newer sights too.

I too much prefer the EoTech reticule for just about everything, but I have went to Aimpoints for much of my needs in the last couple of years. Mostly because of weight.

Buy what you want, but test the tar out of it. And in the case of the EoTech use battery replacement discipline.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 07:29
I guess you're the rare exception that has never made a purchase based on the fact it made you happy.

I'm also curious as to why you have such an obsession w/ college students. The majority of your posts contain some sort of derogatory comment toward people in search of higher learning. Is it jealousy? Its never to late to return to school. They even have online courses now.

Yes I have bought "pretty". With O/U shot guns and 1911's. I buy them to collect and hopefully they work.

College students is just a generic term I use, mostly because I live in by a State University. I see all kinds of ignorance. Kids come in with Mommy's credit card to buy a gun they saw in a movie last week. Come in and talk all crazy about how much they know (all internet drivel) and buy a gun...then ask to store it there as they can't have it in the dorms. Just the stupidity has no bounds and I have a million stories.

I got my BA 20 years ago. The wife has her Master's degree. The kids are working on theirs. The wife's siblings either have or are working on PHD's. And I was a school board member. So, I have nothing against education.

I also use the "400 pound tactical insurance salesman" term.:rofl:

Now back to discussing rifles, gear, and other things we have actual first hand knowledge of.

mjkeat
06-27-2011, 08:00
Yes I have bought "pretty". With O/U shot guns and 1911's. I buy them to collect and hopefully they work.

College students is just a generic term I use, mostly because I live in by a State University. I see all kinds of ignorance. Kids come in with Mommy's credit card to buy a gun they saw in a movie last week. Come in and talk all crazy about how much they know (all internet drivel) and buy a gun...then ask to store it there as they can't have it in the dorms. Just the stupidity has no bounds and I have a million stories.

I got my BA 20 years ago. The wife has her Master's degree. The kids are working on theirs. The wife's siblings either have or are working on PHD's. And I was a school board member. So, I have nothing against education.

I also use the "400 pound tactical insurance salesman" term.:rofl:

Now back to discussing rifles, gear, and other things we have actual first hand knowledge of.

So why would you jump on someone about aesthetics if you have purchased firearms for "pretty"?

My original comment was, everyone has purchased firearms w/ looks in mind.

I can understand the annoyance caused by the kids looking to Hollywood it up. Ran into a large group of those at the range this past weekend. 20 power optics on ARs at the 25yd range and shooting from the hip w/ an Eo equipped AR. It puts a damper on things.

----

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 08:09
So why would you jump on someone about aesthetics if you have purchased firearms for "pretty"?

My original comment was, everyone has purchased firearms w/ looks in mind.



----

Your right a 10k+ Italian O/U and an AR both are about how pretty they look.

Hey you better run along, a guy just posted about wanting an AR for HP shooting and somebody has yet to recommend a BCM.

TheBelly
06-27-2011, 08:15
Yes I have bought "pretty". With O/U shot guns and 1911's. I buy them to collect and hopefully they work.

Now back to discussing rifles, gear, and other things we have actual first hand knowledge of.

Same thing for me. I have very nice looking rifles, where even the stock itself is a piece of art. I enjoy those on the odd Saturday at the range.

I own a serious rifle for the serious work, I really don't care what it looks like.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 08:22
Same thing for me. I have very nice looking rifles, where even the stock itself is a piece of art. I enjoy those on the odd Saturday at the range.

I own a serious rifle for the serious work, I really don't care what it looks like.

Here too. I just bought a Rem 40x .22 LR that just had to have a dark pristine stock. It ain't a pretty stock, but it is what I wanted to have and the rifle had to be LNIB. I did not buy it to use, but to collect. If I bought it to use I would have looked for one cheap and wouldn't have cared if it had blond wood that looked like a beavers lunch.

Maybe the OP should have said whether he wanted to strictly for looks and not to use, or to use.

mjkeat
06-27-2011, 18:48
Your right a 10k+ Italian O/U and an AR both are about how pretty they look.

Hey you better run along, a guy just posted about wanting an AR for HP shooting and somebody has yet to recommend a BCM.

Someone has to save these guys from recommendations given by guys like you. I'm sure you've already recommended he purchase a Del-Ton like you suggested to the LEO who was looking for a duty rifle.

rkwrichard
06-27-2011, 18:58
I have a couple of 512's and they have been great. I can not speak for or against the aimpoint.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 19:35
Someone has to save these guys from recommendations given by guys like you. I'm sure you've already recommended he purchase a Del-Ton like you suggested to the LEO who was looking for a duty rifle.

Yes I did, and do, recommend that rifle for LEO on a budget looking for a decent patrol rifle.

That is based on almost 3 decades as a LEO.
Almost 3 decades as a armorer.
25 years as a LE trainer.
25 years as a LE range master.
25 years of special teams.
And over three decades of using and maintaining the AR.
As per the job and my own recreational shooting I get 15k+ out of a AR a year. I have no idea how many more .22 LR out of conversions (but that don't really count on a rifle, just training).

All of this and upon seeing dozens and dozens of Delton rifles has led me to believe they are a decent choice for a Officer on a tight budget.



And your experience and expertise in the LE arena???????

lawman800
06-27-2011, 19:42
I see nothing wrong with a Del-Ton for work. The average LEO gets to shoot their patrol rifle maybe 4x a year to qual with 10 rounds each time so that's a whopping 40 rounds a year for basic quals. There are advanced carbine or patrol rifle classes for those who want to sign up for it. However, a rifle that can go 15,000 rounds should last the average patrolman quite a long time.

Sad to say, but that is the state of our budget. Even if you hit up the Magpul style classes, you can shoot maybe 500 rounds per day of class and that is a lot of shooting. You can still get 30 days worth of shooting if you take a lot of rifle classes.

So, if a Del-Ton goes 15,000 rounds and then you need to do some maintenance, that is not so out of whack with other things on the market, is it?

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 20:40
I see nothing wrong with a Del-Ton for work. The average LEO gets to shoot their patrol rifle maybe 4x a year to qual with 10 rounds each time so that's a whopping 40 rounds a year for basic quals. There are advanced carbine or patrol rifle classes for those who want to sign up for it. However, a rifle that can go 15,000 rounds should last the average patrolman quite a long time.

Sad to say, but that is the state of our budget. Even if you hit up the Magpul style classes, you can shoot maybe 500 rounds per day of class and that is a lot of shooting. You can still get 30 days worth of shooting if you take a lot of rifle classes.

So, if a Del-Ton goes 15,000 rounds and then you need to do some maintenance, that is not so out of whack with other things on the market, is it?

I'd like to discuss this without (hopefully) creating a massive derailment full of insults and bs.

I am, by no accounts, a rich person. Like many mall ninjas out there, I too am a college student, albeit a little older than that crowd. I do not have years of LEO experience. What I do have is an open-mind, a few years of working in the industry and using these firearms, and the desire to learn as much as I can.

Besides my school time, I work part-time and I receive the GI bill. My yearly income is less than 1/2 of the STARTING leo salaries in my local area. Yet I own a few AR's, all of which would be considered on the "snob" end to Delton customers. I'm on track to shoot 10k of brass ammo this year (a total of 5 courses too).

So, I guess the discussion point is, how is it that someone like myself can afford these "snob" rifles, when someone who makes considerably more money than me, a person who is expected to know how to utilize a rifle, and a person who is responsible for the safety of his/her citizens, not pony up the funds for buying and training with rifles of BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, etc quality?

Look, I get it that most officers are supplied 55gr ammo (or other ammo that works fine in a 1/9). I also know that most train to the minimum standard. But if there is an option out there that allows an officer to carry a more proven option (I hope nobody thinks Delton is more proven than Colt), why not opt for that choice?

And for the love of God, anyone who responds, please do so with the same consideration I show in this post. I'm not going to waste my time if this becomes a petty insult exchange.

TheBelly
06-27-2011, 20:58
Dan, that's the reason I use a daniel defense. I need something I can trust my life with. I just didn't feel that way with my bushmaster.

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 21:04
Dan, that's the reason I use a daniel defense. I need something I can trust my life with. I just didn't feel that way with my bushmaster.

Out of curiosity, are you a LEO?

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 21:09
I'd like to discuss this without (hopefully) creating a massive derailment full of insults and bs.

I am, by no accounts, a rich person. Like many mall ninjas out there, I too am a college student, albeit a little older than that crowd. I do not have years of LEO experience. What I do have is an open-mind, a few years of working in the industry and using these firearms, and the desire to learn as much as I can.

Besides my school time, I work part-time and I receive the GI bill. My yearly income is less than 1/2 of the STARTING leo salaries in my local area. Yet I own a few AR's, all of which would be considered on the "snob" end to Delton customers. I'm on track to shoot 10k of brass ammo this year (a total of 5 courses too).

So, I guess the discussion point is, how is it that someone like myself can afford these "snob" rifles, when someone who makes considerably more money than me, a person who is expected to know how to utilize a rifle, and a person who is responsible for the safety of his/her citizens, not pony up the funds for buying and training with rifles of BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, etc quality?

Look, I get it that most officers are supplied 55gr ammo (or other ammo that works fine in a 1/9). I also know that most train to the minimum standard. But if there is an option out there that allows an officer to carry a more proven option (I hope nobody thinks Delton is more proven than Colt), why not opt for that choice?

And for the love of God, anyone who responds, please do so with the same consideration I show in this post. I'm not going to waste my time if this becomes a petty insult exchange.

No need to worry partner, I agree 99.999999% of of what you wrote. And at least the same percentage to what you usually write.

That is why I used to offer local LE rifles at dealer cost. So that they can get the best rifle they can possibly afford. I always pushed the best rifles I could (Colt, LMT,etc) but as they say "You can lead a horse to water but the damn thing may not drink". So you have to find rifles that are sufficient all over the price spectrum. (And then you have the real dummies that think I have a secret Swiss bank account from all the proceeds I make from selling rifles at my cost.:upeyes:)


In my area PD's may pay 25k to 85k per year. It is a big, and disgusting, pay difference for some. Some are single, some have a wife and kids (or a huge child support payment). Some save money for important things, some spend money on stupid frivolous items and neglect the important items. Some care more about a pen than a gun.

I have always pushed for the best, but unless I give the damn things away for free.....people are going to buy what they want to buy. I just hope to have something to give people that is decent if they can't/won't spend the money on the top shelf stuff.

TheBelly
06-27-2011, 21:09
Out of curiosity, are you a LEO?

Nope. Been .mil for about a decade. Had a few all-expenses-paid trips, too!

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 21:18
HC- I see where you are coming from, and trust me I can relate more than you understand. You should see some of the accessories I have sold to or discussed with LEO's. Many won't take me seriously because they think my personal experience amounts to ****, even if it is 20x what they have done with their rifles.

I guess the difference between you and I, is that I grab a S&W when an officer refuses to go top shelf. Not that Smith's are bad, just that they are in that "perfect" price range for some of the LEO's I deal with.

And oh yea, that salary difference is BS, although I think cost-of-living may be a little more on my end.

TheBelly- Thanks for your service brother. Those paid-for-trips amount for enough experience IMO.

FreakyBig
06-27-2011, 21:30
I've had nothing but luck with my EOTechs, but then again I'm not a LEO who has spent countless hours with mine in the trunk of my car either, so what do I know.

I have a T-1 on a krink and a ML3 on one of my ARs, but still prefer the EOTechs.

I have a 512, 552 and XPS now and I'm about to pick up a EXPS and G23 magnifier to replace the 552 on one of my ARs. I've had good luck with all of them so far.
I've even had good luck running a 512 with an Ultimak on a AK which will supposedly melt the batteries in an EOTech after the first mag.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 21:31
HC- I see where you are coming from, and trust me I can relate more than you understand. You should see some of the accessories I have sold to or discussed with LEO's. Many won't take me seriously because they think my personal experience amounts to ****, even if it is 20x what they have done with their rifles.

I guess the difference between you and I, is that I grab a S&W when an officer refuses to go top shelf. Not that Smith's are bad, just that they are in that "perfect" price range for some of the LEO's I deal with.

And oh yea, that salary difference is BS, although I think cost-of-living may be a little more on my end.

TheBelly- Thanks for your service brother. Those paid-for-trips amount for enough experience IMO.

You would believe some on my "discussions" with cop'ers either.:rofl:
Even more heated where some "discussions" with the bean counters.

Smith is another I recommend also.

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 21:43
My personal favorite: "But my buddy in SWAT says I need this $200 charging handle for my Model 1/Hesse/craptastic rifle!"

"Where is this guy a SWAT operator again?"

This is where he mentions the town who has a population of 1,000 post-retirement-aged people. The same town whose most common crime is failure to appear to the local bingo/bridge game. :faint:

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 21:45
Oh, and by the way Plea. Experience is experience. Some is different that others but I always like talking to guys that have a bunch of it as it always means something. What you can glean off someone may have a direct impact on what your needs are.

I just can't stand people spouting off advise when they don't know an apple from a horses rear end.

(Just a case in point)
They never was a LE, or anything to do with LE. Don't know the first thing about LE work.
They don't have experience as a high volume shooter, or with any type of "gamer" type competitions. (Things that do not relate to LE work with guns, but nevertheless it is experience that can be translated over and VERY useful.)

BUT...they feel the need to spout off and give advise about things they have zero experience in. That is what gets my goat.

lawman800
06-27-2011, 21:48
To be fair, 99.7583741% of the cops out there will use their pens or sunglasses more than ever will use their sidearm, nevermind the AR. Now, does that justify skimping anywhere? Nope. But people have to prioritize their limited resources (money) where they will get the most usage.

Whether or not it means I get my $2,000 HDTV over the $2,000 AR is something I have to worry about with my particular situation. If I have enough to take care of all my needs and then have enough to scrape by to get a medium spec AR or do I spend everything on a top shelf AR that I might hardly use versus a TV I will watch every night is something nobody can critique.

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 21:54
Oh, and by the way Plea. Experience is experience. Some is different that others but I always like talking to guys that have a bunch of it as it always means something. What you can glean off someone may have a direct impact on what your needs are.

I just can't stand people spouting off advise when they don't know an apple from a horses rear end.

(Just a case in point)
They never was a LE, or anything to do with LE. Don't know the first thing about LE work.
They don't have experience as a high volume shooter, or with any type of "gamer" type competitions. (Things that do not relate to LE work with guns, but nevertheless it is experience that can be translated over and VERY useful.)

BUT...they feel the need to spout off and give advise about things they have zero experience in. That is what gets my goat.

I make it a point to state my experience or lack off when discussing something. If I ever gave any other impression, my apologies to the crowd here.

TheBelly
06-27-2011, 21:57
I scrimped, saved, and sold older stuff to get exactly what felt comfortable to me.

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not one of those tip-of-the-spear types, but I've had a REAL need for my rifle to work.

You don't have to complex attack me twice for me to get the hint!

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 22:00
To be fair, 99.7583741% of the cops out there will use their pens or sunglasses more than ever will use their sidearm, nevermind the AR. Now, does that justify skimping anywhere? Nope. But people have to prioritize their limited resources (money) where they will get the most usage.

Whether or not it means I get my $2,000 HDTV over the $2,000 AR is something I have to worry about with my particular situation. If I have enough to take care of all my needs and then have enough to scrape by to get a medium spec AR or do I spend everything on a top shelf AR that I might hardly use versus a TV I will watch every night is something nobody can critique.

I agree with the first portion of your comment, but it leads to something that throws me off with the second portion... where are people getting the $2k number from? I hear that thrown around A LOT. I have never recommended a >$1300 rifle unless someone specifically states they have a particular budget. :dunno:

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 22:03
I make it a point to state my experience or lack off when discussing something. If I ever gave any other impression, my apologies to the crowd here.

I know you do and and I also know that you have something very valuable to share and always do it in a thought provoking way. Which is why I always take time to read your posts.

I scrimped, saved, and sold older stuff to get exactly what felt comfortable to me.

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not one of those tip-of-the-spear types, but I've had a REAL need for my rifle to work.

You don't have to complex attack me twice for me to get the hint!

That is usually how I personally feel about things.

To be fair, 99.7583741% of the cops out there will use their pens or sunglasses more than ever will use their sidearm, nevermind the AR. Now, does that justify skimping anywhere? Nope. But people have to prioritize their limited resources (money) where they will get the most usage.

Whether or not it means I get my $2,000 HDTV over the $2,000 AR is something I have to worry about with my particular situation. If I have enough to take care of all my needs and then have enough to scrape by to get a medium spec AR or do I spend everything on a top shelf AR that I might hardly use versus a TV I will watch every night is something nobody can critique.

You are neither right nor wrong, nor am I or anybody else. It is up to the individual to do as they can/must. The only thing I have pounded over the years (right or wrong of me) is to test what ever equipment you go with, PERIOD.

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 22:09
Testing is imperative, I agree HC. Which is why I didn't review my rifle until I put 6k through it. Not a high round count, but a lot better than some of the "flawless 90 rounds" reviews I have seen occasionally over the years.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 22:11
I agree with the first portion of your comment, but it leads to something that throws me off with the second portion... where are people getting the $2k number from? I hear that thrown around A LOT. I have never recommended a >$1300 rifle unless someone specifically states they have a particular budget. :dunno:

I have seen it a lot from the "you have to have a Noveske/LWRC/LaRue or you will die in the firefight of my imagination" type guys. I don't think he was talking about you.

pleaforwar
06-27-2011, 22:18
There are people like that on both sides of the aisle, and I don't think that will ever change.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 22:21
True enough.

lawman800
06-27-2011, 23:40
The $2k figure is a rough estimate for the rifle, some ammo, mags, and an optic and I don't think that is too off base and maybe even on the low side if you adhere to the top name brands that the AR snobs worship.

I haven't tested my setup to 6k rounds yet but I have shot it quite often and used it in carbine classes. I experienced a jam but that was due to a bad case expanding and getting stuck in the chamber. Once I switched to Federal and lubes it to run dripping wet, I have had zero malfunctions so far.

Would I trust my life to it? At this point, with quality ammo, yes.

HAIL CAESAR
06-27-2011, 23:44
The $2k figure is a rough estimate for the rifle, some ammo, mags, and an optic and I don't think that is too off base and maybe even on the low side if you adhere to the top name brands that the AR snobs worship.

I haven't tested my setup to 6k rounds yet but I have shot it quite often and used it in carbine classes. I experienced a jam but that was due to a bad case expanding and getting stuck in the chamber. Once I switched to Federal and lubes it to run dripping wet, I have had zero malfunctions so far.

Would I trust my life to it? At this point, with quality ammo, yes.

I have no idea what rifle you own.....and donít give a hoot. You tested it, it works, you seem to be happy.........all is good in the world as that is all it's about.:wavey:

lawman800
06-27-2011, 23:46
I know you do and and I also know that you have something very valuable to share and always do it in a thought provoking way. Which is why I always take time to read your posts.

That is usually how I personally feel about things.

You are neither right nor wrong, nor am I or anybody else. It is up to the individual to do as they can/must. The only thing I have pounded over the years (right or wrong of me) is to test what ever equipment you go with, PERIOD.

Which is exactly my point. Nobody can judge other people because you don't know their entire situation which led up to their choices in life. As long as it works for them and they got it covered, I don't care if they are using a $600 Del-Ton leftover parts KISS rifle or some super tricked out Noveske with M4 feed ramps polished by a direct descendant of Samuel Colt himself.

TheBelly
06-28-2011, 06:11
Something that I always forgot when it came to a good rifle package is that I didn't go and buy it all at once, hence the $2k is both realistic and yet fairly deceptive.

I bought my rifle. Shot the peewoddens out of it (maybe 5k rounds in two months) with just iron sights. Saved more money, sold more stuff I wasn't using (and some stuff that I was using, but it was a lower priority) until I had enough to get an optic. I trained with that optic, and it broke. Good warranty on it, so when the new one comes back from warranty it will sit on my plinker. I'm also saving my money for something that has a less chance of breaking.

OP: I used an EOTech 512 and 552 in Iraq. Both of them failed like a champ. I have a video of what was needed to get my guys out of that situation. I will never use an EOTech again.

K. Foster
06-28-2011, 15:58
And for the love of God, anyone who responds, please do so with the same consideration I show in this post. I'm not going to waste my time if this becomes a petty insult exchange.

This should be a disclaimer in the first post of every thread in this section.

pleaforwar
06-28-2011, 18:21
The $2k figure is a rough estimate for the rifle, some ammo, mags, and an optic and I don't think that is too off base and maybe even on the low side if you adhere to the top name brands that the AR snobs worship.

I haven't tested my setup to 6k rounds yet but I have shot it quite often and used it in carbine classes. I experienced a jam but that was due to a bad case expanding and getting stuck in the chamber. Once I switched to Federal and lubes it to run dripping wet, I have had zero malfunctions so far.

Would I trust my life to it? At this point, with quality ammo, yes.

I don't know where you shop, but I'll elaborate on my end.

Colt is authorized by most departments (at least out here). I can sell a SP6920 for $1199. I take 5% off that (for LEOS), which comes out to ~$60. Spend said $60 on a cheap sling and a couple of Pmags. Ammo is issued, and by all accounts that is the most officers shoot anyways. Considering earlier comments, optics are not a necessity. Hell, I personally know a Sheriff's instructor who doesn't even allow optics in his course.

What does that come up to? $1320 after taxes?

I don't want to argue with you about this. All I am saying is that the extras like ammo are things I don't consider to be part of the price. Heck, if that's the case, I have a $6000 AR as my primary defense/course gun! :faint:

lawman800
06-28-2011, 18:45
The base 6920 is fine. However, most guys I know have the 6940 or M&P15T and they mount a good sling, some mags, and a $500 optic. While ammo is not a part of the gun, we do not get anywhere near the ammo we need for practice. CA has higher prices than you quote due to our import laws and restrictions and taxes. Heck, state sales tax is 9.75% as is and we also have a $35 transfer fee from the dealer. It all adds up!

pleaforwar
06-28-2011, 18:49
CA

That's all you had to say from the beginning. I know you guys have it rough.

lawman800
06-28-2011, 19:00
Another thing about ammo, while I don't count ammo that is bought and stored at home but I will count the minimum ammo that I will buy for familiarization and extra practice above that provided by the department.

While we may disagree on whether or not ammo counts, there is no dispute that it still costs money. The working cop has to calculate how much he can spend on other things if he buys a top line rifle.

The $300-500 difference in price between a working rifle and a premium AR snob rifle could mean other parts and extra ammo for practice. Or... Another month of eating ramen, or denying his kid the new clothes for school, or making the extra payments on his mortgage to achieve a debt free life.

Point is, you can't point blank say that someone has to choose this in this price range or you should allocate your money this way or else you are not taking your job seriously. I don't tell the shoe salesman to buy better shoes to do his job.

M&P15T
06-28-2011, 19:13
Let me get this straight.

The OP asks a few basic questions about his AR, and this thread devolved into a pissing match about AR credentials?

Christ, I gotta stop even reading these threads.:rofl::rofl:I should know better by now!

lawman800
06-28-2011, 19:20
Nobody is arguing about AR credentials. I am saying you can't judge other people just because they don't spend like you when it comes to ARs.

M&P15T
06-28-2011, 19:26
Nobody is arguing about AR credentials. I am saying you can't judge other people just because they don't spend like you when it comes to ARs.

Really? No one is arguing AR credentials? O.K., I should have written bragging about AR credentails.

Whatever......same old stuff.

pleaforwar
06-28-2011, 19:38
Another thing about ammo, while I don't count ammo that is bought and stored at home but I will count the minimum ammo that I will buy for familiarization and extra practice above that provided by the department.

While we may disagree on whether or not ammo counts, there is no dispute that it still costs money. The working cop has to calculate how much he can spend on other things if he buys a top line rifle.

The $300-500 difference in price between a working rifle and a premium AR snob rifle could mean other parts and extra ammo for practice. Or... Another month of eating ramen, or denying his kid the new clothes for school, or making the extra payments on his mortgage to achieve a debt free life.


I think the $2k HDTV vs. higher-end rifle is much more realistic than the eating ramen, feeding my kids, can't afford clothing discussion. I have yet to meet a cop, with kids or without, who lives in a situation that considering a basic Colt, S&W, LMT, etc is impossible to consider. I'm sure they are out there, but after being related to a few, working with several, training with who-knows-how-many, and serving with a couple, I can't say I have ever seen it.


Point is, you can't point blank say that someone has to choose this in this price range or you should allocate your money this way or else you are not taking your job seriously. I don't tell the shoe salesman to buy better shoes to do his job.I'm not a shoes salesman, and I have more experiencing working with LEO individuals than I think you are giving me credit for. Please do not compare me to someone who makes his money by being a sly POS. I have postponed many bottom-shelf sales (a sale that is better than nothing on my end) to professionals by recommending they at least research the product they are purchasing. If they come back and still want to purchase the rifle, I offer all my advice to making sure it runs well. I ALWAYS consider the financial background of every single individual I work with, and I never tell them they HAVE to have anything. All I can do is recommend based on my direct experience and lessons taught by people who KNOW their stuff.

If that makes me an AR snob, so be it. The people who work with me on a personal basis know much better, and that's all that matters to me.

M&P15T
06-28-2011, 19:52
All I can do is recommend based on my direct experience and lessons taught by people who KNOW their stuff.

If that makes me an AR snob, so be it. The people who work with me on a personal basis know much better, and that's all that matters to me.

I'm in sales, and understanding the customer is everything. It's good to hear that you recommend based a customer's budget. I could recommend customers purchase cabinetry A, but if it ain't in their budget, I'd be a very poor sales guy.

The world of ARs is absolutely filled with people that are sure that every would-be customer is going to be involved in an hours long fire-fight, and that doesn't even apply to LEOs. Decent ARs is all that virtually anyone needs, as long as they are reliable.

lawman800
06-28-2011, 19:54
Really? No one is arguing AR credentials? O.K., I should have written bragging about AR credentails.

Whatever......same old stuff.

Find me one place in this thread where I threw out any namebrands of any AR I owned or snubbed my nose at others for owning. I was vouching for what AR snobs wouldn't even spit at.

K. Foster
06-28-2011, 20:07
I think it comes down to priorities and education, much more so than just money. Many cops just donít have the priorities they should. As Ď800 said ďDo I spend X amount on a top of the line rifle that I wonít shoot very much and may never need or do I spend X amount on a TV that Iíll watch every night.Ē Iím not saying thatís right but that is the thinking of many people.
On education, we are here because we are enthusiastic about ARís. Owning, shooting and hopefully, training with them. Many cops are not gun enthusiasts. That is a fact. If they would sit down and spend 4 hours reading threads here and on M4c they would be much better equipped to make informed decisions.

lawman800
06-28-2011, 20:10
I think the $2k HDTV vs. higher-end rifle is much more realistic than the eating ramen, feeding my kids, can't afford clothing discussion. I have yet to meet a cop, with kids or without, who lives in a situation that considering a basic Colt, S&W, LMT, etc is impossible to consider. I'm sure they are out there, but after being related to a few, working with several, training with who-knows-how-many, and serving with a couple, I can't say I have ever seen it.

I'm not a shoes salesman, and I have more experiencing working with LEO individuals than I think you are giving me credit for. Please do not compare me to someone who makes his money by being a sly POS. I have postponed many bottom-shelf sales (a sale that is better than nothing on my end) to professionals by recommending they at least research the product they are purchasing. If they come back and still want to purchase the rifle, I offer all my advice to making sure it runs well. I ALWAYS consider the financial background of every single individual I work with, and I never tell them they HAVE to have anything. All I can do is recommend based on my direct experience and lessons taught by people who KNOW their stuff.

If that makes me an AR snob, so be it. The people who work with me on a personal basis know much better, and that's all that matters to me.

Now I get it. Sorry for the miscommunication. I didn't direct any of this to you or your practices. I was speaking in general after seeing enough of this type of crap from different salesmen in various dealer shops.

I don't take anything from you or belittle your experience. All I am saying is things are very different in CA and for every case you don't see it, I have seen it. From cops with 6 kids, to one with 4 alimony payments directly garnished out of his paycheck, or one that is making next to nothing in the boonies because that is the only place that will hire him, cops don't all live comfortable lives. Some are struggling day to day like anyone else.

Poolman21
06-28-2011, 20:22
So... Aimpoint or Eotech?

mvician
06-28-2011, 20:33
So... Aimpoint or Eotech?



That is a decision that YOU are going to have to make for YOURSELF. :horsey:

Poolman21
06-28-2011, 20:46
That is a decision that YOU are going to have to make for YOURSELF. :horsey:

Haha I'm joking. I'm going with the Aimpoint. It's starting to grow on me. Now I just don't know about my front sight, do I shave it down or just go with a DD 12" FSP rail? Which rail do you guys recommend? The Omega X in the torture test video held up impressively well.

PS, since when does every single firearm of every single gun owner in the entire world have to military grade and be able to survive the DD torture test? Is there no such thing as a recreational shooter anymore? Some people need to be a little more open minded and realize that everyone's needs are different.

mjkeat
06-28-2011, 22:49
Haha I'm joking. I'm going with the Aimpoint. It's starting to grow on me. Now I just don't know about my front sight, do I shave it down or just go with a DD 12" FSP rail? Which rail do you guys recommend? The Omega X in the torture test video held up impressively well.

PS, since when does every single firearm of every single gun owner in the entire world have to military grade and be able to survive the DD torture test? Is there no such thing as a recreational shooter anymore? Some people need to be a little more open minded and realize that everyone's needs are different.

Very true but when the cost virtually the same, why not.

surf
06-29-2011, 01:26
Haha I'm joking. I'm going with the Aimpoint. It's starting to grow on me. Now I just don't know about my front sight, do I shave it down or just go with a DD 12" FSP rail? Which rail do you guys recommend? The Omega X in the torture test video held up impressively well.

PS, since when does every single firearm of every single gun owner in the entire world have to military grade and be able to survive the DD torture test? Is there no such thing as a recreational shooter anymore? Some people need to be a little more open minded and realize that everyone's needs are different.It depends on your needs. If it was a duty weapon or military deployment situation or perhaps even a defensive weapon, I would tend to suggest leaving the fixed front sight post, however reliability of optics these days such as the one you intend to purchase greatly lessens the potential for use of irons. Now if you do to with a full rail, I definitely suggest a shaved FSB over an aftermarket low pro gas block. You can dimple or pin them but the shaved FSB just makes way more sense.

I will also echo the comment that it doesn't make sense to go with a lower quality product given similar pricing, which is pretty much what we are seeing right now in the AR/M4 market. This same concept applies for purchasing weapons as it does for whatever else we purchase. Would the salesman above ever suggest lower quality cabinets if the consumer could get the much higher quality cabinets for virtually the same price, even though either will suit the users needs?

pleaforwar
06-29-2011, 02:10
Glad we can find mutual agreement Lawman. I have done some consulting work with a California FFL, and trust me, I know it sucks for people/leos out there when it comes to these rifles.

lawman800
06-29-2011, 03:05
Would the salesman above ever suggest lower quality cabinets if the consumer could get the much higher quality cabinets for virtually the same price, even though either will suit the users needs?

Yes. Unethical salesmen looking to make a fast buck on sales of things which he needs to clear for the boss or if there is a different commission on selling one item over the other would make that sale and I have seen many places that have these type of practices but yet, people keep going back to them.