One HD shotgun, for two different people.

[NkySpike]

Hi guys, I got an ideal on what I would like to do, but would really appreciate your input...

I am wanting to get a shotgun solely for home defence, as I don't do any type of hunting at all.

I really like the Remington model 870 tactical shotgun..
If that was my choice, I would also like to add the Blackhawk specops (knoxx) adjustable stock... Remington 870 Triple Rail Forend, with maybe a vertical forward grip. Plus some type of light setup...

Again that is what I would like, and that is based on a Remington 870 12ga.


Now the other person who may need to use this shotgun, (God forbid) would be my 17yr old daughter... I think she would feel better trying to aim a shotgun, then a handgun (so would I)...

I also think she would feel more confidence and a little more at ease, shooting a 20ga then a 12ga. Even with the knoxx stock...


So the shotgun I been looking at that might work for the both of us, is the Remington model 870 express synthetic 7-round ( http://remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-synthetic-7-round.aspx )...

It comes in a 20ga as well as 12ga, so that would work out great for her... It some-what looks like the 870 tactical, so I'll be happy.


Now from what I understand is that most accessory for a 12ga will not fit on a 20ga shotgun... Like I said the "Remington model 870 express synthetic 7-round" come in both 12ga & 20ga, but yet I have not found anything saying that they are two different sizes from each other, like a standard and a JR size...

So I'm hoping that the accessories that I want to get, will fit on the 20ga Remington 870 express synthetic 7-round with out a problem at all...


I really don't know to much about the Remington family line of shotguns, so any info you could help me with would be grateful.


Thanks,
David

[Clint-M]

If you're really concerned about your daughter needing to use a pump you should take her to the store with you and have her get a feel for which pump she likes best. Of the top choices, I prefer the feel of the Benelli Nova over the 870 with the Mossberg being my least favorite. Benelli just cycles smoother to me and the recoil pad fits perfectly against my shoulder. You could always use the youth model for her if the regular stock is too large.

If you're more concerned with your needs and her's as an emergency defense only I don't think it necessarily matters what you get as long as she knows how to function it. If she has a 12 gauge pulled against her shoulder and is about to use it on an intruder the last thing she'll think about is the recoil or fit. She shouldn't be taking slug shots at 90 yards or anything.

CM

[B Coyote]

Consider a shortened or youth stock on that gun along with using reduced recoil loads. If you're worried about the gun being heavy, get the four-shot version.

bc

[bowtie454]

Actually, you described the shotgun I have for my girlfriend and myself. I'm over 6' and she is around 5'3. I have a Remington 870 Tactical with a Knox Spec-Ops stock. I am a big 870 fan, I chose the Tactical version because it was the cheapest way to get an 18" barrel with with a screw-in choke. The Knox (now Blackhawk) stock is great because it both reduces felt recoil and allows quickly adjustable length of pull. For those who say recoil isn't felt in a SD situation, they are probably right. However, if the gun kicks like a mule when she is out practicing, she will never feel comfortable with it. Think of recoil reduction like hearing protection. It gives you the ability to practice more and gain confidence with the weapon, but when you are in a real situation, it doesn't matter. I don't use reduced-recoil loads in mine, but that is certainly an option to make it even more shootable for your daughter.

One addition I added to mine that I really like is the XS Big Dot tritium sight. It epoxies over the existing front bead and gives a large white dot with a tritium insert for low light. Super easy to pick up, day or night.

[aippi]

Never put a vertical forend on a pump as it acts as a lever and over touges the action bars. Soon you are standing there wondering why your shotgun is not smooth. It is becuase the action bars are binding in the receiver channels and you have FUBAR'ed the forend tube assembly.

[MrMurphy]

A 12 gauge with reduced recoil loads kicks less than a 20 gauge.

[B.Reid]

A 12 gauge with reduced recoil loads kicks less than a 20 gauge.

I concur, and even if you keep it loaded with full power loads at home she will never feel the recoil in an emergency. Practice with low recoil bird shot and she will have no fear of the gun. Small women can handle a 12 ga with no problem.

[Clint-M]

Never put a vertical forend on a pump as it acts as a lever and over touges the action bars. Soon you are standing there wondering why your shotgun is not smooth. It is becuase the action bars are binding in the receiver channels and you have FUBAR'ed the forend tube assembly.

I agree with this also. If you want to put a bunch of extra gear on a gun, make sure it runs first and foremost and that the extra accessories add to the function and reliability of the weapon, not potentially screw with it. Proper function and user education will make a stock weapon better than any modified weapon in the hands of a novice.

Also, if you're determined to pick up an 870, I'd keep my eyes open for an older Wingmaster. They can be had for a decent price in great shape. I had a nearly 30 year old Wingmaster 870 that I beat to pieces that I would have put up against any other pump in competition. Best 870 I've ever shot.

CM

[mixflip]

This... its plain & simple. Light weight and the double extractors are a big plus! (Mossberg 500)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/mixflip/mossberg_500_old.jpg

You can shave the buttstock down and ad a limbsaver recoil pad. Limbsaver's are the best! Spend any time over at shotgunworld.com and you'll see what I mean.

Also, dont under estimate what a 17 year old girl is capable of. low recoil 00-buck and a limbsaver butt pad is comfortable for any one.

+1 on the training. Shotguns have a high learning curve due to its bulky ammo and longer length vs a handgun...when using it in a house for self defense. Train her on it and you should have great results when SHTF. You dont need a bunch of tactical do dads... just good practice/training.

[Z71bill]

My wife can not handle my 12 gauge 870 - it is just too big & heavy.

It has nothing to do with the recoil of a 12 gauge - it is the size and weight of the gun.

A 20 gauge youth model is much easier for her to handle -

[NkySpike]

Thanks everybody for your input. Looks like we will be heading out to some gun shops to get a better ideal what might work for her...

Thanks again,
David

[Feanor]

I would also like to add the Blackhawk specops (knoxx) adjustable stock... Remington 870 Triple Rail Forend, with maybe a vertical forward grip. Plus some type of light setup...

I would urge you in the strongest possible terms to stay away from the Knoxx telescopic stocks, they are virtually junk, they are definitely primitive.

The Knoxx spec ops is extremely primitive, the movement of the spring action compromises the shortest, most useful LOP position, the last one, almost certain to be the one favored by a seventeen year old girl.

The problem is the mechanics of the stock coupled to some very serious design flaws relating to the stock tube, that result in very painful "cheek slap" to the shooter.

In my very humble opinion, you and your daughter would be far better served by installing a hogue 12' LOP stock, fitted with a limbsaver butt pad! That mated to proper technique, should make all the difference.

If you do decide to go the route of an AR type telescopic stock, there really is only one good option available, and it is a very proven system that does moderate recoil quite effectively, unfortuneately, it's also very expensive, on the order of $275.00 and up.

This of course is the Mesa tactical AR adapter with the enidine hydraulic buffer for shotguns. They have two different kits available, one for Remington 870 shotguns, and one for Mossberg 500 series guns.

Keep in mind that the Mesa unit will likely cost as much as the gun itself! The Hogue 12' LOP stock can be had for about $40.00.

[Blast]

This... its plain & simple. Light weight and the double extractors are a big plus! (Mossberg 500)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/mixflip/mossberg_500_old.jpg

You can shave the buttstock down and ad a limbsaver recoil pad. Limbsaver's are the best! Spend any time over at shotgunworld.com and you'll see what I mean.

Also, dont under estimate what a 17 year old girl is capable of. low recoil 00-buck and a limbsaver butt pad is comfortable for any one.

+1 on the training. Shotguns have a high learning curve due to its bulky ammo and longer length vs a handgun...when using it in a house for self defense. Train her on it and you should have great results when SHTF. You dont need a bunch of tactical do dads... just good practice/training.
This^^
No need to go "tacticool" for HD shotgun.
Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, both are great.

[MrMurphy]

The Speedfeed IV-S is also a short, handy stock that works well.


I would honestly advise a 5.56 carbine myself, having seen everyone from 4'9" females to 6'8" males use the same weapon effectively. But if a shotgun is your choice, TRAIN. Professionally. A lot. And that doesn't mean an NRA instructor course.

[Taykaim]

The Speedfeed IV-S is also a short, handy stock that works well.


I would honestly advise a 5.56 carbine myself, having seen everyone from 4'9" females to 6'8" males use the same weapon effectively. But if a shotgun is your choice, TRAIN. Professionally. A lot. And that doesn't mean an NRA instructor course.

I'd have to disagree on this for the reason I wouldn't advise anyone to use most rifles for HD.
I'm not an authority on the subject, but I can read the box of truth, and I wouldn't want my wife or daughter exposed to the liability of every missed shot leaving our house and finding its way who knows where*, when buck shot loads have good lethal potential and a lot less penetration. My wife went from being a little afraid of shotguns, to loving them when I got her a Rem 1100 in 20. Actually, its not just her. I find it a very pleasant gun to shoot. I wouldn't have any worries that she could handle it in an emergency situation.


*In our house, that's a real and significant possibility. Your situation may allow you to use an M1A or Garand etc as your home defense weapon with no chance of hitting a neighbor, if so, I envy you.

[MrMurphy]

You can read boxoftruth all you want. The FBI tests are what I would trust a lot more.

Toss in the fact that most 5.56 defensive loads penetrate less than PISTOLS through building materials.... this is well known by those serious about the subject.

I have years of time on the AR platform including 3 years of daily clearing buildings with one. Guess what I pick up when trouble calls. What I have trained on.

I used to have a 4'9" 90lb-in-armor female working with me. She could effectively run an M4 and have 30 rounds on target in a hurry with more coming. No way she'd be running a shotgun by any choice (and she qualified on them).

[Big Bird]

I was out on the skeet range two weeks ago with my best friend's two daughters--ages 15 and 17. Their dad asked me to teach them how to shoot a shotgun. The girls were using a 12 gauge O/U with the stock cut down for them. Shooting light skeet loads both girls went through 75 rounds each and wanted to shoot some more. However, when we started their form was so bad they wouldn't have made it through 10 rounds before the gun beat them up. So the first thing I worked on with them was how to stand and how to properly hold a shotgun. Honestly, few men know how to do it well...

My 8 year old daughter has a Remington 870 Youth gun and she will go through a couple of boxes of shells without a complaint. Again, proper form and coaching.

Shooting a shotgun for home defense is a different animal than shooting it on the skeet field or hunting ducks. A lot of people don't get that. But using a gun that fits and mounting the gun properly and CONSISTENTLY is the hard thing to learn regardless. Unless you have done it 700 or 800 times you probably don't have it worked out yet.

So my advice to you is to forget about all the gee gaws and hang on doo dads for now and spend your money on basic gun, a bunch of shells and range time with your daughter. A home defense gun with $300 worth of accessories won't be nearly as effective as a $250 Mossberg 88 with someone behind the trigger who knows how to wield a scattergun.

And contrary to Mr. Murphey, I think the shotgun is a MUCH better choice for HD especially because it is simple and doesn't have half the manual of arms of a carbine. Forget the fact that a well placed load of 00 Buckshot remains the gold standard manstopper. And I carried an M16 a lot longer than he has...

Regardless of your choice--trigger time is the key. Personally, I'd invest in a tactical shotgun training course for you and your daughter. There is no 870 accessory you can buy that will compensate for lack of proficiency!

[MrMurphy]

A shotgun remains 'simple' as long as the ammo is preloaded in the tube, there are no malfunctions and you don't need to reload.

Once you do, it's just as complex as everything else.

It's your life and your pick. I can effectively run a 12ga, but i've made my choice due to training and most of a life on one platform. I'd use a shotgun without hesitation, but i don't ever consider them 'simple'.

[Big Bird]

A shotgun remains 'simple' as long as the ammo is preloaded in the tube, there are no malfunctions and you don't need to reload.

Once you do, it's just as complex as everything else.

It's your life and your pick. I can effectively run a 12ga, but i've made my choice due to training and most of a life on one platform. I'd use a shotgun without hesitation, but i don't ever consider them 'simple'.

My 8 year old daughter has her own 870 and can load, safe, unsafe, and shoot the thing by herself. I couldn't get her to do that with an AR in a month and a whole lot of training. And she's shot my AR's

There's nothing complicated about loading a pump shotgun--they are far more intuitive than any semi-auto carbine ever made.

[B.Reid]

My 8 year old daughter has her own 870 and can load, safe, unsafe, and shoot the thing by herself. I couldn't get her to do that with an AR in a month and a whole lot of training. And she's shot my AR's

There's nothing complicated about loading a pump shotgun--they are far more intuitive than any semi-auto carbine ever made.

I agree for the non hobbyist or trained soldier a shotgun is a good choice for home defense. There will seldom be a need to reload in a home defense situation.

[Big Bird]

I agree for the non hobbyist or trained soldier a shotgun is a good choice for home defense. There will seldom be a need to reload in a home defense situation.

Its not just that its simple but a single round of 00 Buck loaded through the open ejection port has 9 projectiles ready to go--or about a third a magazine full of 5.56! Put three rounds in the gun and you can now put more lead in the air faster than even a pro can dump a whole magazine from an AR and typically have several rounds to spare!

[DHart]

Another vote for the Mossberg 500 Persuader 18.5" in 12 ga. with reduced recoil loads. The Persuader has 5+1 = six shots and is very nimble and maneuverable in close quarters. Reliability is on par with any pump and the double extractors is a little extra "extraction" insurance. Add the position of the tang safety to provide both visual feedback and easy operation with thumb for both left and right handers. Mossberg also sells youth stocks which are shorter. And +1 for the Limbsaver recoil pad recommendation - they are the best at making shotguns more comfortable to shoot.

My Mossbergs... the lack of mag extensions on these guns adds to their reliability. The 18.5" Persuader (comes new with polymer furniture) strikes a great balance between light out-front weight, easy maneuverability in close quarters, and pretty good capacity at six rounds.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/500_and_590.jpg

The 870 is a great gun, but disadvantages (in my view) are lower capacity without mag extension added, arguably less ergonomic position of safety compared to tang placement, less ergonomic position of slide release vs. Mossberg, and one extractor vs. two on Mossberg. The 870 WILL get the job done, however and I do like my 870 Police models, which are beautiful guns, but not my first choice when it comes to defensive use.

Of my Mossbergs, Winchester 1300s, and 870 Police models, my first choice for defensive use (though without the Mossberg controls is a compromise) is the Winchester 1300 Defender, which with just an 18" barrel and one-piece, full length mag tube (NO extension!) gives 7+1 = EIGHT shot capacity! I prefer the Mossberg controls, but the Defender's capacity and speed-action design is a great combination to have for defense use... EIGHT rounds before a reload with just an 18" barrel (and no mag extension) is sweet indeed. Downside is that Winchester no longer makes the 1300 Defender, though there are many very nice ones to be found on the previously owned markets... many still in virtually new condition.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Shotguns%20and%20RIfles/MossChesterTon.jpg

Nkyspike... for your purposes, I think the 18.5" Mossberg Persuader with bantam (reduced length) buttstock is the perfect choice because it is stone reliable, fairly lightweight and very nimble in close quarters, and has decent capacity at six-rounds. The lack of a full length mag tube lightens the front of the weapon, making the Persuader nimble and more easily handled by women and smaller shooters. Most of these guns are more commonly found with polymer furniture which is fine, but I prefer the look and solid feel of hardwood furniture.