2nd Strike Glock? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rail Driver
06-27-2011, 19:40
So I tried a while back to post this question in the G.A.T.E. forum, but it disappeared into the ether... So here's my question... Would it be possible to safely modify the Glock trigger group to include a 2nd strike capability in case of a fail to fire?

RS7
06-27-2011, 22:38
No. Rack the slide. Try again.

cyrsequipment
06-28-2011, 09:36
Ammo is too cheap to worry about something like that...

I've never understood that "selling point". Taurus was using that line for awhile regarding one of their guns and some brainless gunwriter (who obviously got some money from Taurus) was touting it every chance that he could get and making an absolute fool of himself while doing it.

Tap-rack works quite well and can cure multiple malfunctions as opposed to a "2nd strike capable weapon" that can only cure one problem, which incidentally is a problem with the gun to begin with.

I have nothing against Taurus, nor do I have a problem per-se with the concept, but if you're shooting at a threat and your gun goes click when it is supposed to go bang, then you need to be trained do do something other than pull the trigger a second time.

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 10:24
Ammo is too cheap to worry about something like that...

Maybe for you. Either way it's not about the cost of ammo.

I've never understood that "selling point". Taurus was using that line for awhile regarding one of their guns and some brainless gunwriter (who obviously got some money from Taurus) was touting it every chance that he could get and making an absolute fool of himself while doing it.

What's wrong with advertising your pistol's features? Are you saying that all those 1911 manufacturers advertising front cocking serrations on their pistols are also fools? What about Glock advertising their "safe action trigger"? See what I'm getting at? Manufacturers of any product are going to want to tell consumers what sets their product apart from others, even if the only difference is cosmetic and there's nothing foolish about it (even if the product or feature itself happens to be foolish).

Tap-rack works quite well and can cure multiple malfunctions as opposed to a "2nd strike capable weapon" that can only cure one problem, which incidentally is a problem with the gun to begin with.

I don't disagree that "Tap, Rack, Bang" works ... but you failed in your evaluation of the problem... Fail to fire can be caused by more than just the gun. In fact, bad ammo causes failures to fire more often than a malfunctioning Glock.

I have nothing against Taurus, nor do I have a problem per-se with the concept, but if you're shooting at a threat and your gun goes click when it is supposed to go bang, then you need to be trained do do something other than pull the trigger a second time.

I don't see the second strike capability as a drill to practice for defensive use. I see it as a very rarely needed feature that can prove useful at the range. Sure "Tap, Rack, Bang" is easy to do, and is in fact second nature, but some of us like to "tinker" with things, and not all of my guns are defensive carry guns. Further, I doubt that having one firearm that has that option would affect my training as my primary carry happens to be a 1911 (in case you aren't aware, the 1911 is single action only) and there's no double strike. When I load up magazines to go train I mix snap caps in with my live rounds in order to simulate FTF malfunctions, and I do use "Tap, Rack, Bang" to clear them (lost 3 snapcaps to the sand pit last week :steamed:)

No. Rack the slide. Try again.

Thanks for your enlightening answer. Maybe I should have posed my question a little better, so here I'll add to it.

"And if not... Why not, and what prevents this feature from being added?"

Foxtrotx1
06-28-2011, 10:31
Maybe for you. Either way it's not about the cost of ammo.



What's wrong with advertising your pistol's features? Are you saying that all those 1911 manufacturers advertising front cocking serrations on their pistols are also fools? What about Glock advertising their "safe action trigger"? See what I'm getting at? Manufacturers of any product are going to want to tell consumers what sets their product apart from others, even if the only difference is cosmetic and there's nothing foolish about it (even if the product or feature itself happens to be foolish).



I don't disagree that "Tap, Rack, Bang" works ... but you failed in your evaluation of the problem... Fail to fire can be caused by more than just the gun. In fact, bad ammo causes failures to fire more often than a malfunctioning Glock.



I don't see the second strike capability as a drill to practice for defensive use. I see it as a very rarely needed feature that can prove useful at the range. Sure "Tap, Rack, Bang" is easy to do, and is in fact second nature, but some of us like to "tinker" with things, and not all of my guns are defensive carry guns. Further, I doubt that having one firearm that has that option would affect my training as my primary carry happens to be a 1911 (in case you aren't aware, the 1911 is single action only) and there's no double strike. When I load up magazines to go train I mix snap caps in with my live rounds in order to simulate FTF malfunctions, and I do use "Tap, Rack, Bang" to clear them (lost 3 snapcaps to the sand pit last week :steamed:)



Thanks for your enlightening answer. Maybe I should have posed my question a little better, so here I'll add to it.

"And if not... Why not, and what prevents this feature from being added?"

No need to be rude. The points provided by members have been insightful. Second strike is a load of crap. Glocks are not capable of this "feature." I suggest breaking your pistol down and detail striping the slide so you can see how foolish it would be to think the endeavor possible.

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 10:44
No need to be rude. The points provided by members have been insightful.

I wasn't being rude. "No, rack the slide and try again" is far from an insightful response. Calling someone "brainless" for doing what he's paid (or not) to do is certainly not insightful, and is quite rude. Your statement:

Second strike is a load of crap.

... was rude, in my opinion.

I suggest breaking your pistol down and detail striping the slide so you can see how foolish it would be to think the endeavor possible.

It appears you are assuming I'm one of those newbie gun owners that went out and got a Glock and know nothing about them. I know a fair amount about how these pistols work however I'm not a gunsmith, nor am I a Glock engineer. I don't claim to know everything about Glocks, which is why I asked the question, but I do know basically how they work. It appears to me that the only reason that Glocks can't second strike is because instead of a spring loaded trigger reset, the slide/striker resets the trigger. I asked the question in order to start a discussion about something that interests me, not to have people say "no, that's just how it is".

If I had posted a thread about "i got me dis new glock fotay n i wanna make it bust full auto. how i do dat?" I would understand a snarky response, but I thought my question was fairly direct and certainly doesn't imply anything other than simple ignorance of the detailed operation of the Glock trigger system which incidentally, is what I posted the question to learn about.

Angry Fist
06-28-2011, 10:49
I think the additional parts, and the possibility of failure outweighs the need for a second strike. Some ammo needs a harder hit, but TRB is what most train for.

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 10:56
I think the additional parts, and the possibility of failure outweighs the need for a second strike. Some ammo needs a harder hit, but TRB is what most train for.

That's an answer I can understand for the why not. I know I've definitely gotten some ammo with primers that were a bit harder than others, but that is only range ammo (which is what got me thinking about this in the first place). I never thought to use such a feature in a SD situation simply because I was trained with TRB, though I also practice transitions to my backup.

I'm the kind of person that likes to tinker (as can be evidenced by my G26) and after seeing some of the modifications that competition guns have, I think the idea is pretty tame if it's doable.

http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/137/2d672e04c4444871b2999ce93490619b/l.jpg

toshbar
06-28-2011, 19:15
What the heck have you rammed up the rear of that pistol? :shocked:

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 20:32
lol it's just a piece of tubing that was on the table behind the gun :rofl:

Foxtrotx1
06-28-2011, 20:40
I wasn't being rude. "No, rack the slide and try again" is far from an insightful response. Calling someone "brainless" for doing what he's paid (or not) to do is certainly not insightful, and is quite rude. Your statement:



... was rude, in my opinion.



It appears you are assuming I'm one of those newbie gun owners that went out and got a Glock and know nothing about them. I know a fair amount about how these pistols work however I'm not a gunsmith, nor am I a Glock engineer. I don't claim to know everything about Glocks, which is why I asked the question, but I do know basically how they work. It appears to me that the only reason that Glocks can't second strike is because instead of a spring loaded trigger reset, the slide/striker resets the trigger. I asked the question in order to start a discussion about something that interests me, not to have people say "no, that's just how it is".

If I had posted a thread about "i got me dis new glock fotay n i wanna make it bust full auto. how i do dat?" I would understand a snarky response, but I thought my question was fairly direct and certainly doesn't imply anything other than simple ignorance of the detailed operation of the Glock trigger system which incidentally, is what I posted the question to learn about.

If you know the slide reengages the trigger why would you think pulling the trigger twice without the slide reciprocating would be possible?

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 20:47
If you know the slide reengages the trigger why would you think pulling the trigger twice without the slide reciprocating would be possible?

Hence the word "modify" in my initial post. Again... I'm aware how it works now. I'm not talking about second strike with a stock glock. I'm trying to get some inventive responses on ways that adding this feature might be feasible such as ... how bout if we added a trigger reset spring, would that work? Maybe the striker would have to be modified to allow the disconnector to slide underneath in reverse while preserving normal function and retaining the drop safety ledge.

toshbar
06-28-2011, 20:56
If you could modify it to allow the trigger bar to get back in front of the striker when you pull the trigger forward, it might work.

But if you have the dexterity and time to pull the trigger forward to reset, why not just rack the slide?

bel970
06-28-2011, 21:21
you've got several issues to address that would require significant modifications to the glocks fire control components. unlike a hammer fired system (and some strikers) the trigger bar directly engages the striker and the connector resets not the trigger bar (most systems force the trigger bar down when the slide cycles to disconnect and reset, part of the reasons glocks can easily be converted to closed bolt full auto), combined with the design of the trigger housing this means that the cruciform of the trigger bar only drops to release the striker and only in rear position, forward of the rear position the left side of the cruciform is blocked from dropping by the slot in the trigger housing (drop safety), which if you haven't figured it out by now means you'd have to defeat the drop safety in order to get the trigger bar low enough to clear the striker in its forward position after firing. next problem is hyper-extending the trigger spring and increasing the length of the trigger pull and finally forward travel of the trigger is stopped by the trigger engaging the trigger shoe, OEM trigger bar/shoe assemblies are not designed to be dissembled, its possible but usually not pretty, easier with some after markets.

generally where there is a will there is a way. IMHO bad idea, really wouldn't recommend it and not to be rude but if you don't already understand the design well enough just by looking and doing a detail strip then you'll being ruining a lot of parts before you create a unsafe gun if you careful, if your not careful a ruined gun.

VN350X10
06-28-2011, 21:23
Got to ask, WHY would you want to waste the time with a posible faulty primer ? If it didn't go "BANG" the first time, I personally would rather a fresh round in the chamber.
Not being rude, just MY way of looking at the problem.
I believe it was Jeff Cooper who called a double-action semi auto the answer to a non-existant question.

uncle albert

Rail Driver
06-28-2011, 21:56
you've got several issues to address that would require significant modifications to the glocks fire control components. unlike a hammer fired system (and some strikers) the trigger bar directly engages the striker and the connector resets not the trigger bar (most systems force the trigger bar down when the slide cycles to disconnect and reset, part of the reasons glocks can easily be converted to closed bolt full auto), combined with the design of the trigger housing this means that the cruciform of the trigger bar only drops to release the striker and only in rear position, forward of the rear position the left side of the cruciform is blocked from dropping by the slot in the trigger housing (drop safety), which if you haven't figured it out by now means you'd have to defeat the drop safety in order to get the trigger bar low enough to clear the striker in its forward position after firing. next problem is hyper-extending the trigger spring and increasing the length of the trigger pull and finally forward travel of the trigger is stopped by the trigger engaging the trigger shoe, OEM trigger bar/shoe assemblies are not designed to be dissembled, its possible but usually not pretty, easier with some after markets.

generally where there is a will there is a way. IMHO bad idea, really wouldn't recommend it and not to be rude but if you don't already understand the design well enough just by looking and doing a detail strip then you'll being ruining a lot of parts before you create a unsafe gun if you careful, if your not careful a ruined gun.

This is exactly what I was looking for... a sort of "How and why not". From your explanation I understand quite a lot better now why this type of modification would be so difficult, not to mention the hit in reliability. It's not something I planned on doing, more of a theory than anything.

cowboy1964
06-28-2011, 22:03
Got to ask, WHY would you want to waste the time with a posible faulty primer ? If it didn't go "BANG" the first time, I personally would rather a fresh round in the chamber.

And what if it's your last round?

cowboy1964
06-28-2011, 22:11
I believe it was Jeff Cooper who called a double-action semi auto the answer to a non-existant question.

I don't know if he said that or not but I've learned that whenever someone argues that something "is an answer to a non-existent question" they usually don't have anything else to offer.

VN350X10
06-29-2011, 22:53
Got to remember, to Col. Cooper the sun rose & set on the 1911 design.

But then the Bren-Ten was mostly his idea. Possible to teach an old dog at least one new trick.....


uncle albert

DannyR
06-30-2011, 07:38
Last round? If you have not solved the problem with the 10 to 17 previously fired rounds, one more is not going to help you. You could load a fresh magazine into the pistol.

Bushflyr
07-10-2011, 01:00
As explained by others anything is possible. However, it is extremely impractical, you'd be rebuilding the whole firing system from scratch.

As for the utility. What is your immediate action drill whenever the gun goes "click" rather than "bang"? Hint: It's not pull the trigger again. It's Tap-Rack-Reassess or Bang, however you want to play it. If you're even considering pulling the trigger again you're in serious need of remedial training.