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dwalker84
07-02-2011, 02:55
My fiance's friend from work has an abusive ex that's been stalking/harrassing her for months. Yesterday he came to her house, and beat her senseless, raped her, and threatened to kill her. The police arrested him and he is currently locked up, but no telling when/how quickly he will get out.

She's been asking us to take her to the range and teach her about guns and how to shoot - she knows absolutely nothing about firearms, but after speaking to her, she has made up her mind to carry and take this seriously. I'm taking her tomorrow first thing - but she needs to get a handgun. Her main problem is money - I told her the best bet would to be to pawn whatever she can, and get a new/used glock26 - I have a feeling she won't be able to get the money required to afford a glock.

My question is: What are a few affordable but RELIABLE pistols, that are smaller or around the size of a g26 - 9mm is preferred but 380 is as low as I think she should go. Her ex is 300+lb's, I'm concerned about a 380's ability to penetrate reliably.

Any suggestions?

captdreifus
07-02-2011, 03:01
J frame. 360 shipped from buds or jet guns.

tehama
07-02-2011, 03:03
J frame. 360 shipped from buds or jet guns.

Will that J frame have too much bite for her though?

Foxtrotx1
07-02-2011, 03:30
J frame seems to be the default answer. I challenge that suggestion. Good luck getting her to enjoy shooting a J frame enough to be proficient.

A gun that fits her hand and makes her want to shoot would be my suggestion. If she loves a j frame, thats great.

3rdgen40
07-02-2011, 03:33
If this was a friend of mine,I would go find her ex when he gets out and have a "talk" with him...:steamed:

voyager4520
07-02-2011, 03:42
Ruger SR9C, Ruger LC9

Less concealable but still reliable: S&W Sigma(HEAVY trigger), Ruger P-series, police trade-in S&W 3rd Gen.

Taurus revolvers are actually good quality. The only downsides to a revolver are a little heavier trigger pull, less capacity, and how long it takes to reload even with speed loaders.

datnvan
07-02-2011, 04:36
if u have an extra one, teach her with it and then let her borrow it until she can afford the same one or something similar. but it seems the first thing that should be done is get a restraining order. of course that wont stop him from coming near her but does give her more legal "backing" if he shows up again and she needs to defend herself.

debbert
07-02-2011, 05:28
I know that this will probably sound ridiculous, especially here at GT but since her budget is so limited, why not start off with a Hi Point?

I know, I know... don't flame me!

I've heard that they're reliable and they're definitely affordable, even if it's just a temporary thing until she can upgrade to something a bit nicer.

Here's a link to their 9mm with a suggested retail of $165.

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/handguns/handguns_9mm.html

BuckyP
07-02-2011, 05:40
She should shoot a few different guns and get a feel for how they are. Depending on how much she is going to practice, a revolver is not a bad option. How will she carry? If recoil is problem, an all steel revolver could be the answer.

Don't discount the used market either.

Just1More
07-02-2011, 05:51
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

debbert
07-02-2011, 05:59
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

I assumed, from the OP's original post, that she would become familiarized with firearms, especially semi-automatics.

...She's been asking us to take her to the range and teach her about guns and how to shoot...

sdsnet
07-02-2011, 06:05
Find a nice used CZ 75. Have her rent a few guns including a revolver with some length of barrel beyond snubbie. A few different types so she can tell you what she prefers and can shoot well first.

BuckyP
07-02-2011, 06:12
Find a nice used CZ 75. Have her rent a few guns including a revolver with some length of barrel beyond snubbie. A few different types so she can tell you what she prefers and can shoot well first.

Odd recommendation for a new shooter. :headscratch: Either carry cocked and locked, or manually lower the hammer? Unless you meant one of the decock models? :dunno:

woodrowNC
07-02-2011, 06:27
and a good folder from walmart with at least 5in of blade.

Aahzz
07-02-2011, 06:39
The trigger is heavier, but for a small affordable 9 the Kel-Tec P11 gets generally good reviews. A used S&W 3913 is a good manageable size, but they're getting harder to find and are going up in price. Ruger SR9c or LC9, as mentioned above, could be good, but I'd worry about the LC9 recoil for a new shooter.

For .380, a Bersa Thunder is affordable and a sweet shooter, but ammo cost is high and you have concerns against a large attacker.

dwhite53
07-02-2011, 06:45
Get a J-frame and load it up with some factory target rounds. Won't recoil as bad as standard 38 Special loads. It will be pretty controllable.

After getting raped she's not going to mind the recoil.

Wheelguns are simple, easy to operate.


All the Best,
D. White

CBennett
07-02-2011, 06:48
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

^ This is 100% the RIGHT answer if your not willing to train and learn you have no business with a semi auto..That said it seems from the OP statement she wants to learn and go to the range..so if she is willing to learn and train(failure type drills in case it jams up for some reason) if go with a smaller 9m ..how about a LC9 or a PPS they have a slim profile and decent(smaller) size grips for a bit smaller hands id really look at those 2.

If she thinks she wont be able to clear a malfunction in quick order stick with the Revolver the one id look at is the Ruger LCR very manageable with a great trigger. IMO right now out of the box the best SD Revolver on the market.

CBennett
07-02-2011, 06:52
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

^ This is 100% the RIGHT answer if your not willing to train and learn you have no business with a semi auto..That said it seems from the OP statement she wants to learn and go to the range..so if she is willing to learn and train(failure type drills in case it jams up for some reason) if go with a smaller 9m ..how about a LC9 or a PPS they have a slim profile and decent(smaller) size grips for a bit smaller hands id really look at those 2.


the LC9 is $389 give or take

The LCR about the same I think maybe $10 more so both less than $400


If money is real tight the Kel Tec PF9 is also a decent deal at around $250

bug
07-02-2011, 07:01
If this was my friend and she was in the same position as your friend is, the wife and I would be taking her gun shopping.
I would make up the difference from what ever money she had and buy her the gun that fits her Hand/body-type.

find out if she can rack the slide, hold the gun properly, work all the controls.

Help her find A CCW class.
Help her find a self defense class.
Help her find someone to help deal with being raped.

bug
07-02-2011, 07:06
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

If she is interested in gaining proficiency in shooting because of what happened she will be fine.
A lot of women make better shooters because many have no preconceived notions on how to shoot and how to hold a firearm. + they listen!! men not as much.
I see it every week in our CCW class.

GAFinch
07-02-2011, 07:10
A snub nose has about the same ballistics as a .380 unless you get into the hot loads, which will have too much recoil and muzzle flash. The only thing you can do for female shooters is have them try out a few guns. If she can't find a gun she likes that's cheap enough, I'm sure one of her family members would be willing to chip in some money. If not, take up a collection among some of your friends.

Crazy KD
07-02-2011, 07:15
Our local ranges have "lady's nights" which I would recommend. She can try out various different guns and get someone outside her circle of friends to teach her. She'll make up her own mind whether a gun is right for her and which one.

I'd go along with the revolver recommendation though from my experience with ladies.


Mentally is she ready to own a gun? When I went through my CWP class there was a lady who had obviously been through a traumatic event. We could tell by her questions and handling of her firearm. Even though she passed the requirements of the course her application was rejected by the instructor.

I wish your friend the best with her recovery.

pugman
07-02-2011, 07:17
Several questions.

How did he get into the house? Did he force his way-did she him walking up a path? I'm not asking if she knew she was about to be beat down and raped. Did this assault happen at night? Does she plan on getting a CCW permit? I know these sound like stupid questions but to me it makes sense to ask.

To me a pistol isn't the answer if she doesn't plan on getting a permit. Is this harrassment nonstop at work or only while she is at home.

Then there are questions around penetration, etc.

I say get a shotgun, 20 gauge with low recoil shells and some buckshot. You can pick up reliable, used 20 gauge Remingtons all day for $200 around me.

Do your part and field strip and clean it for her. Add a recoil paid and she is set.

300# or not. At in-home ranges even a partial miss will give him something to think about-a center mass hit and he will have bigger problems than deciding whether to rape or beat her.

The question isn't getting a tool...its the right tool for the job.

OctoberRust
07-02-2011, 07:19
if u have an extra one, teach her with it and then let her borrow it until she can afford the same one or something similar. but it seems the first thing that should be done is get a restraining order. of course that wont stop him from coming near her but does give her more legal "backing" if he shows up again and she needs to defend herself.


This. If I had a friend who had unspeakable things happen to her as you mentioned, I'd gladly throw a gun her way and spend a couple weekends training her.

PS - Assuming it's legal in your state of course. I know in Texas giving guns as "gifts or letting them "borrow" is. I'd assume Arizona is the same way, they seem to be more relaxed on firearms than Texas.

OctoberRust
07-02-2011, 07:23
Sorry for the double post , and not to turn this thread into a caliber war, but I don't understand why people are recommending her the J frame. I've been shooting for over a decade and absolutely hate shooting that, the gun rubs my hand raw after 20 rounds, not to mention 5 rounds of .38? I personally wouldn't go any lower than 9mm for personal protection. I know many will get on my case for this but take it or leave it. Last thing I'd want to hear is how she failed to stop him, and he turned the gun on her. Sort of what happened in TN a week or two back.

Several questions.

How did he get into the house? Did he force his way-did she him walking up a path? I'm not asking if she knew she was about to be beat down and raped. Did this assault happen at night? Does she plan on getting a CCW permit? I know these sound like stupid questions but to me it makes sense to ask.

To me a pistol isn't the answer if she doesn't plan on getting a permit. Is this harrassment nonstop at work or only while she is at home.

Then there are questions around penetration, etc.

I say get a shotgun, 20 gauge with low recoil shells and some buckshot. You can pick up reliable, used 20 gauge Remingtons all day for $200 around me.

Do your part and field strip and clean it for her. Add a recoil paid and she is set.

300# or not. At in-home ranges even a partial miss will give him something to think about-a center mass hit and he will have bigger problems than deciding whether to rape or beat her.

The question isn't getting a tool...its the right tool for the job.

In AZ there is no CCW permit required to carry. She should be fine with a nice glock, since that will/SHOULD be on her more often.

Crazy KD
07-02-2011, 07:23
if u have an extra one, teach her with it and then let her borrow it until she can afford the same one or something similar. .

I used to think this and let a family member borrow a Glock after his house got broken into. Guess what.....they broke into his house a second time and promptly stole my gun. It was the only thing of value that was stolen the second time. I'm still bothered that my handgun is out there potentially being used to commit crimes.

After that I don't let people borrow my guns.

J_Rico
07-02-2011, 07:23
If it were my friend, she could have any d@%^ gun she showed she could handle. If I did not have one to hand to her we would pay for it together.

Check the pawn shops in your area. Maybe ask shooters you know if there is a good shop. Some pawn shops are horrible about guns, but others can have real deals. They usually negotiate.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 07:25
First question, will she be able to actually pull the trigger when the time comes? Unless she can develop the proper attitude that will let her pull the trigger a gun would be pretty much useless to her and may actually just be taken away from her and used against her.

Second question, if she's just learning do you really think a semi-auto would be the best choice for a 1st defensive handgun? I personally think a revolver would be a better choice because it has a simpler manual of arms and it's easier to tell if it's loaded or unloaded, just open the cylinder and you instantly know.

I know for those of us who've been around firearms for most of our life and who've hunted and can adopt a "killer instinct" in times of danger that the first thing we think of in a situation like this is a gun but I think that maybe you need to investigate other options first.
A high voltage stun gun may be a better option if she can keep it hidden until she can bring it into action. At which point she can zap the holy crap out of him then if she's in the mood while he's down she can do a little batting practice with a ball bat on the top of his head.

Either way I'd really think this over before you just shove a gun into her hand and expect her to shoot someone in a high stress situation.

randyr5
07-02-2011, 07:30
My fiance's friend from work has an abusive ex that's been stalking/harrassing her for months. Yesterday he came to her house, and beat her senseless, raped her, and threatened to kill her. The police arrested him and he is currently locked up, but no telling when/how quickly he will get out.

She's been asking us to take her to the range and teach her about guns and how to shoot - she knows absolutely nothing about firearms, but after speaking to her, she has made up her mind to carry and take this seriously. I'm taking her tomorrow first thing - but she needs to get a handgun. Her main problem is money - I told her the best bet would to be to pawn whatever she can, and get a new/used glock26 - I have a feeling she won't be able to get the money required to afford a glock.



My question is: What are a few affordable but RELIABLE pistols, that are smaller or around the size of a g26 - 9mm is preferred but 380 is as low as I think she should go. Her ex is 300+lb's, I'm concerned about a 380's ability to penetrate reliably.

Any suggestions?

Do you own any guns that fit this category? If so, let her try them out to see what she likes the best. Or, if the range rents, go that way.

ede
07-02-2011, 07:31
LE glocks run around 330 at my dealer, j frames are 369$

JaPes
07-02-2011, 07:38
Ruger P95.

paragon1
07-02-2011, 07:40
CDNN is practically giving away Sig p250s. As far as semis go, that would be the best to learn with.

nuclear g17
07-02-2011, 07:45
She needs a steel frame 5 shot revolver using 158+p lead hollow points. Easy to find a Taurus, Rossi, Ruger, S&W revolver for $300 or so. Easy to train her on.

HKLovingIT
07-02-2011, 07:45
Rape counseling.
Visit from Locksmith - reinforced doors and windows or window bars, reinforced bedroom door with deadbolt.
Installation of alarm with panic button/remote
Self Defense Class
Professional Firearms Instruction

Low Cost Handguns for car, carry or home

Ruger SP101 .357 bobbed hammer, with Corbon DPX 110 gr .38 Special +p or Gold Dot 135 gr .38 Special +p, Nyclad .38 Special (all will have negligible recoil in steel revolver)

Similar steel frame Taurus Revolver with same loads.

Can find the above two used quite often and save a bunch.

Would stay away from the, Ruger LCR, and S&W Airweight and Airlite revolvers. Fine revolvers but the recoil is not for new shooters. Stick with steel frame revolvers.

Ruger LC9
Keltec PF9
Used G26
Ruger SR9C
Keltec P11
S&W 3913
SIG 225/P6
Stoeger Cougar

For home
Remington 870 Express Compact Jr 20 Gauge, buckshot
Police Trade G17
Sigma

Quick access lock box.
2nd cellphone always charging in the bedroom.

If money is a big problem, you can lend her some, she can pawn or sell something, or even though I detest consumer credit, she can likely get a store card at bass pros, Cabelas or Gander and just use it in the case of this emergency to purchase a firearm and accessories.

She needs to have layered protection. Make entry into the home difficult, backed up with an alarm and monitoring company, firearm is last resort. Make bedroom into reinforced safe room. Add a watch dog as additional alarm if suitable.

unit1069
07-02-2011, 08:00
If this was a friend of mine,I would go find her ex when he gets out and have a "talk" with him...:steamed:

The woman isn't the OP's friend; she's a friend of the OP's fiance.

Regardless of their association or relationship the very last thing I'd recommend is becoming involved in a situation that's already resulted in the arrest of the perp. Let law enforcement/prosecution institutions deal with this alleged criminal. And do remember at this stage his criminality has not been adjudicated in a court of law.

What is the "friend" going to do when he initiates a confrontation with an alleged violent offender? What's the "friend" going to do if the perp escalates the confrontation that the "friend" initiated?

Your advice sound like a prescription for potentially very serious legal problems for the "friend" and it's not something I would ever recommend --- unless one is going out of his/her way to look for trouble.

CBennett
07-02-2011, 08:09
Rape counseling.
Visit from Locksmith - reinforced doors and windows or window bars, reinforced bedroom door with deadbolt.
Installation of alarm with panic button/remote
Self Defense Class
Professional Firearms Instruction

Low Cost Handguns for car, carry or home

Ruger SP101 .357 bobbed hammer, with Corbon DPX 110 gr .38 Special +p or Gold Dot 135 gr .38 Special +p, Nyclad .38 Special (all will have negligible recoil in steel revolver)

Similar steel frame Taurus Revolver with same loads.

Can find the above two used quite often and save a bunch.

Would stay away from the, Ruger LCR, and S&W Airweight and Airlite revolvers. Fine revolvers but the recoil is not for new shooters. Stick with steel frame revolvers.

Ruger LC9
Keltec PF9
Used G26
Ruger SR9C
Keltec P11
S&W 3913
SIG 225/P6
Stoeger Cougar

For home
Remington 870 Express Compact Jr 20 Gauge, buckshot
Police Trade G17
Sigma

Quick access lock box.
2nd cellphone always charging in the bedroom.

If money is a big problem, you can lend her some, she can pawn or sell something, or even though I detest consumer credit, she can likely get a store card at bass pros, Cabelas or Gander and just use it in the case of this emergency to purchase a firearm and accessories.

She needs to have layered protection. Make entry into the home difficult, backed up with an alarm and monitoring company, firearm is last resort. Make bedroom into reinforced safe room. Add a watch dog as additional alarm if suitable.

Ive got the SR9c id have her try the slide on that first my wife cant rack the slide on the SR9c..she could rack the slide on the Glock 23 easily enough but the SR9c has some pretty strong springs in it. Great gun just strong spring..

CBennett
07-02-2011, 08:13
Also found a few in the $300 range

S&W 5906 $320
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000277&dir=700|1012|1026

CZ75 $329
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000121&dir=700|1012|1026

ronin.45
07-02-2011, 08:19
I agree that a revolver is a much simpler gun for a new shooter to use. Most women end up carrying in a purse so a little extra weight isn't a big deal. I think a stainless 38 is a great choice. The extra heft makes it much more manageable. Of course they will need to practice with it, but that's true of any gun.

mastrbloata
07-02-2011, 08:39
Ruger P95.

This poster beat me to it. My experience with them has been 100% reliability. This gun can be had for $300.00. I'd get it in the Safety/de cock version for her. You can rack the slide and then engage the safety which in turn safely drops the hammer on a live round. Remove the safety with a flick of the thumb and the gun is ready to fire but the first pull will be in double action (stiff pull like a revolver) which could be viewed as an extra measure of "safety", and then the rest of the cycle will be in single action. Basically, you're getting revolver type "safety" in a reasonably priced, dependable, good capacity gun chambered in an effective cartridge. 300lbs.? You might want to load 147gr.-
I've had three of these and they work. Best deal for quality versus price going in my lowly opinion.

I wish you and your friend the best of luck with this situation. MAYBE, they'll keep him in jail.:upeyes: That of course would be the best, most sensible outcome.

JimBianchi
07-02-2011, 08:58
For a gun newbie who is also shell-shocked, a small revolver loaded with 38+p is the way to go.

If she panics, no slide to pull back, no mag to drop, no safety to worry about, long trigger pull is a great safety.

Smith, Ruger or Taurus is the way I'd go, in that order.

Prayers for your friend.

2 Hawks
07-02-2011, 09:28
She will need to prepare herself for the task of defending her life, mentally. Read books such as "On Combat" which will explain how you will react to this task. The shooting part takes dedicated training, the combat part takes a little more self determination..The more she knows the better off she'll be..I recommend a revolver, in 38sp...

donovan655
07-02-2011, 09:44
1) sorry to hear about your fiance's friend. that sounds like a ******* horrible situation. People that think they can have their way with other people need to be, ummmm, corrected in their thinking.

I'd recommend:

Glock 19, 26 gen 3 (flame thread protected)
Ruger sr9
S&W m&p
beretta px4 sub compact.

In my opinion, she should get a G19. It is good for HD and carry (especially in a purse). It is dead nuts reliable regardless of maintenance.

I wouldn't underestimate how little the gun will get taken care of.

I second counseling and maybe a large dog.

Spend the money right the first time. It is cheaper in the end. This will likely be the first and last gun she will ever own. It had better be the best she can possibly get.

Maybe she can sell something to come up with some extra cash. many guns stores also have some layaway and financing options.

carbuncle
07-02-2011, 09:53
Ruger SR9C, Ruger LC9

Less concealable but still reliable: S&W Sigma(HEAVY trigger), Ruger P-series, police trade-in S&W 3rd Gen.

Taurus revolvers are actually good quality. The only downsides to a revolver are a little heavier trigger pull, less capacity, and how long it takes to reload even with speed loaders.

I agree with all of this: Taurus 85 or any on the above are great choices, as would be the S&W SD9, all available in her price range and all good to go for her needs.

Baba Louie
07-02-2011, 10:01
1. Prayers
2. Counseling
3. CZ-82!!! and direct her to Kathy's site CorneredCat pronto (please)

http://corneredcat.com/

Tell her a bunch of people are rooting for her (Jeez I cannot imagine going thru any of that)

Get the CZ cheap. Ammo too (relatively speaking in the 9Mak)
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparisonof9x18mmMakarovetc.htm

FireForged
07-02-2011, 10:04
My wife is slight and she like the jframe 38 with pachmyar gripper grips.

Glock21Owner
07-02-2011, 10:33
Find a used S&W Model 49, get a few of you guys to chip in and buy it for her

dosei
07-02-2011, 10:47
Kahr CW9
Sig P250
S&W SD9
Ruger SR9/SR9c
EAA Witness/Witness Compact
SA XD9/XD9SC
S&W M&P/M&Pc

MrSmoofy
07-02-2011, 10:54
My wife has a 38 special, it's hamerless and she carries it with her in a concelment purse. We also go to the goodwill and fleamarket to get cheap purses so she can practice shooting without putting it out of her purse.

Wake_jumper
07-02-2011, 10:59
Small revolver with standard 38 spl jhp loads
Big dog
Fox Labs Pepper Spray
... or move far away and don't leave a forwarding address.

sdsnet
07-02-2011, 11:36
Odd recommendation for a new shooter. :headscratch: Either carry cocked and locked, or manually lower the hammer? Unless you meant one of the decock models? :dunno:

Although I do own a decocker I did overlook this issue.

sdsnet
07-02-2011, 11:39
[QUOTE=Baba Louie;17574350]1. Prayers
2. Counseling
3. CZ-82!!! and direct her to Kathy's site CorneredCat pronto (please)

http://corneredcat.com/

Nice site !

cloudbuster
07-02-2011, 11:44
I agree with the people who have said let her try out a few guns. Find a range that has loaner/rental guns and let her explore a range of guns.

A problem for new shooters is that the guns that are comfortable to shoot frequently don't overlap with the guns that are comfortable to carry. My daughter shoots my L-Frame much better and with more confidence than her J-Frame, but lugging around an L-Frame just isn't a serious option for her.

It's a given that DAO J-Frames are one of the most difficult pistols with which to become proficient, and they're fairly loud and snappy.

Some women are put off by semi-automatics. Some aren't. It's not like it's rocket science. She may take right to it. Don't pre-judge her.

However, I would avoid any semi-automatic with a manual safety -- it seems like a simple thing, but it's the first thing an inexperienced user forgets about (at both ends -- forgetting to put it on when it should be on, and to take it off when it should be off).

See how she reacts at the range. If she's timid, better she have a .32 Auto she's willing to shoot than a 9mm or .38 she's intimidated by.

Note that a lot of .380s are no "softer" or easier to shoot than 9mms because they use straight blowback actions instead of locked breaches. (hi-points, btw, are one of the few 9mms that are straight blowback, so it has recoil out of proportion to its enormous size -- but nothing against hi-points. They're cheap and reliable.).

One of the smallest, simplest, softest-shooting pistols is the KelTec P32 which is a .32 auto with a locked breach, so it has very little felt recoil despite its tiny size. It may not be much of a gun, but if it's all she'll carry, it's better than the one she left home "just this once" because it seemed too inconvenient.

It bears repeating that shot placement is much more important then caliber. Better she can hit him seven times with a small caliber gun than flinch-and-miss with a bigger gun. Let her make the call with what feels good to her.

ETA: OP, if your friend can't afford a gun that you and she feel comfortable with, but if you happen to have a spare of your own that's suitable, loan her yours. You'd hate for something to happen to her because she couldn't come up with the cash, or because she relied on a cheap PoS gun that wasn't reliable, right? You can get it back after she saves up more cash for her own.

HotRoderX
07-02-2011, 11:51
One thing she needs to do is figure out if she does plan to carry can she use it. No matter how serious she thinks she is, she needs to sit down and really think about what carrying entitles. The last thing she wants to do is be carrying and not willing to use it. Like my instructor told us the only thing worse then being unprepared is prepared and unwilling. If she falls into the prepared but unwilling she just gave her attacker a weapon. Once that is worked out then my guess would be look at the G26 like you said minimal recoil in a tight package. I would also take a look at the Rugers they tend to be a lot of bang for your buck. I would stay away from anything from Tarusus as they seem to be hit and miss. One thing for sure you and your wife need to make sure she gets plenty of range time in, not that you would need a reason to go tot he range.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 11:54
If(BIG, HUGE, HAIRY IF) she does end up getting a gun and IF she does end up pulling the trigger and sending this guy to hell where he belongs I'd hate to see how it'll all play out in court if they catch wind that you or anyone else helped her get the gun and taught her to use it.
I'm NOT saying that what you're doing is wrong in ANY WAY, I am saying that a smart Lawyer will totally take her apart in the Court room and make this jerks killing look totally premeditated to the point where she may even be brought up on 1st Deg. Murder Charges.

Yes, he's attacked her in the past and has threatened to do so again in the future but a good lawyer COULD say that after she got the gun SHE provoked him into attacking her so she could kill him and that's Premeditation.

I still think there's something that she can do other then picking up a gun even though I'll be the first one to say that a handgun in the right hands is a great equalizer. Just please, be very, very careful if you choose to walk down this path and please, let her get some professional firearms training so she'll be more "Court Proof" if push does come to shove and she off's the guy.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 11:57
The woman isn't the OP's friend; she's a friend of the OP's fiance.

Regardless of their association or relationship the very last thing I'd recommend is becoming involved in a situation that's already resulted in the arrest of the perp. Let law enforcement/prosecution institutions deal with this alleged criminal. And do remember at this stage his criminality has not been adjudicated in a court of law.

What is the "friend" going to do when he initiates a confrontation with an alleged violent offender? What's the "friend" going to do if the perp escalates the confrontation that the "friend" initiated?

Your advice sound like a prescription for potentially very serious legal problems for the "friend" and it's not something I would ever recommend --- unless one is going out of his/her way to look for trouble.

None of which will be believed by the OP until he finds out that the victim has refused to testify in court.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:05
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

Not by my experiences. I've taught multiple females that were completely new to firearms how to shoot with GLOCK pistols. Revolvers are harder to shoot, with more difficult to learn triggers, worse sights, and more recoil.

The best things about GLOCK pistols are no safety, easy to learn trigger, good sights, easy recoil in 9MM.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 12:09
B.S., I've taught multiple females that were completely new to firearms how to shoot with GLOCK pistols. Revolvers are harder to shoot, with more difficult to learn triggers, worse sights, and more recoil.

But revolvers don't get Stove Pipe jams, Failure to Feed, Failure to Eject, you can't accidentally drop the mag out of a revolver under a high stress situation, you can't limp wrist a revolver, you can easily see if your revolver is loaded or unloaded.
For someone not "into" guns a revolver is a much better choice. Heck, my wife has shot for years, all kind of guns and she still feels more comfortable with a revolver. It just depends on the person and how willing they are to learn the manual of arm that goes along with the gun. A revolver has a much simpler manual of arms.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 12:11
B.S., I've taught multiple females that were completely new to firearms how to shoot with GLOCK pistols. Revolvers are harder to shoot, with more difficult to learn triggers, worse sights, and more recoil.

And did those women then buy and carry Glocks? Will they remember how to use them when they haven't shot them in a year and a half? Do they clean the dust bunnies out of them? Did the lipstick in their purse depress the trigger?

Yes, you can show a novice how to shoot an auto. You can show a female novice how to shoot and auto easier than a male novice. Unless they are going to move beyond the novice stage, and shoot once a month and stay trained, a revolver will be a better choice. It can get bounced around in her purse for a decade and all she has to do is point it at the bad guy and sweep the trigger.

smokeross
07-02-2011, 12:19
She should shoot a few different guns and get a feel for how they are. Depending on how much she is going to practice, a revolver is not a bad option. How will she carry? If recoil is problem, an all steel revolver could be the answer.

Don't discount the used market either.

Yes, this. A double action .38 They never fail and are easy to learn. She can practice with loads that are comfortable to shoot and then keep it loaded with a good defensive round. If she has to use it, she won't notice the additional recoil.

GAFinch
07-02-2011, 12:20
If those 18 year old yahoos over in General Glocking can first learn to shoot using a Glock, so can a woman.

glock2740
07-02-2011, 12:21
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.
I agree. And get them to the range to shoot ALOT. Also loan her the money, if need be, to get a CC permit ASAP. If she's gonna be carrying the gun and possibly be put in a SD situation and possibly have to shoot the guy, she will be in deep dodo if she's just packing "because she's scared".

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 12:29
I'd recommend to stay out of this volatile situation. It's "he said/she said" right now. Get in the middle of it will cause the OP nothing but headache. Unless you're there seeing the guy slapping her around and raping her, you don't know anything.

If she were to want to learn about shooting for self-defense, then recommend a local training school/instructor for her.

If the OP were to teach her to shoot and she went to buy a gun then blasted the ex, then it turned out that they both had personal issues instead of assault and rape. Now what?

That's my two cents about involvement.

For gun recommendation, it's hard to beat a Smith&Wesson K-frame in .38 Special. A Model 10 or similar models can be had for $300 or less. It's rugged and reliable. It will put six shots into somebody most ricky tick. Six shots of .38 Special in Gold Dot, HydraShok, FMJ, soft points, wadcutter, semiwadcutter, Nyclad, ad infinitum. It doesn't care. It will fire all .38 Special ammo.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:29
If(BIG, HUGE, HAIRY IF) she does end up getting a gun and IF she does end up pulling the trigger and sending this guy to hell where he belongs I'd hate to see how it'll all play out in court if they catch wind that you or anyone else helped her get the gun and taught her to use it.
I'm NOT saying that what you're doing is wrong in ANY WAY, I am saying that a smart Lawyer will totally take her apart in the Court room and make this jerks killing look totally premeditated to the point where she may even be brought up on 1st Deg. Murder Charges.

Yes, he's attacked her in the past and has threatened to do so again in the future but a good lawyer COULD say that after she got the gun SHE provoked him into attacking her so she could kill him and that's Premeditation.

I still think there's something that she can do other then picking up a gun even though I'll be the first one to say that a handgun in the right hands is a great equalizer. Just please, be very, very careful if you choose to walk down this path and please, let her get some professional firearms training so she'll be more "Court Proof" if push does come to shove and she off's the guy.

If you could provide one actual adjudicated case where a previously assaulted and raped female got charged with murder defending herself, I'd be shocked. Me thinks you have a twisted sense of the legal system.

And if this woman lives in Texas, she might actually get a medal for offing this d-bag. I know of a 1st hand account of a shooting, where the perp was shot and wounded by a friend of a female, who was days later abducted by the B.G. (after the perp got out of the hospital), driven across state lines, and then released a few days later. The cops told the person that shot the guy, that he should have killed the perp when he had the chance.

She also doesn't need to get "professional" training, that's just more fear creeping out of your view of the legal system. In fact, looking at it from your point of view, said spawn of satan prosecuter could then say that she sought the best training available to be best able to kill the guy.

See how paranoia works? It can go both ways.

At this point, despite the fact that the perp hasn't been convicted yet, there are police and medical reports, pictures of the woman black, blue and bleeding, rape kit results, etc. The bad guy is already toast, he knows it, and he may just decide to kill her for no good reason other than to do it before he gets thrown into prison.

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 12:33
I
She also doesn't need to get "professional" training, that's just more fear creeping out of your view of the legal system. In fact, looking at it from your point of view, said spawn of satan prosecuter could then say that she sought the best training available to be best able to kill the guy.

At least it ain't you that got involved in it. The "professional training" place has insurance and lawyers to deal with that sort of thing. Unless you like getting involved in personal business of other people that you don't know much about.:dunno:



At this point, despite the fact that the perp hasn't been convicted yet, there are police and medical reports, pictures of the woman black, blue and bleeding, rape kit results, etc. The bad guy is already toast, he knows it, and he may just decide to kill her for no good reason other than to do it before he gets thrown into prison.
Did you see all these evidences in this case?

It couldn't have been maybe they were into rough sex and then he told her, "Ciao baby" and she got pissed off, calling the cops faking rape?

You were there? You saw everything happened with your own eyes?

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:35
But revolvers don't get Stove Pipe jams, Failure to Feed, Failure to Eject, you can't accidentally drop the mag out of a revolver under a high stress situation, you can't limp wrist a revolver, you can easily see if your revolver is loaded or unloaded.
For someone not "into" guns a revolver is a much better choice. Heck, my wife has shot for years, all kind of guns and she still feels more comfortable with a revolver. It just depends on the person and how willing they are to learn the manual of arm that goes along with the gun. A revolver has a much simpler manual of arms..

Neither have any of the 12 GLOCK pistols I've owned. Ever. Not in tens of thousands of rounds. Not with me shooting them, or any of the females I've taught to use them. And never have I either witnessed or heard of anyone accidently dropping a magazine out of an auto. And I don't agree that a revolver has a simpler manual of arms. Slap a mag in, cycle the action, done. Simple. One trigger to learn, less recoil, better sights, higher capacity, etc., etc.

You like revolvers, and you'll go to any imaginative lengths to support your position. All I have to do is point out that autos have eclipsed revolvers in sales to civilians, and 100% with Military and LEOs, for decades. That's it.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:37
At least it ain't you that got involved in it. The "professional training" place has insurance and lawyers to deal with that sort of thing. Unless you like getting involved in personal business of other people that you don't know much about?

The "Professional Training" place costs money. She doesn't have it. And since there is almost a 0% chance that where she learned to use a pistol will ever come up, who cares.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:39
If those 18 year old yahoos over in General Glocking can first learn to shoot using a Glock, so can a woman.

Right.

And everyone that goes into the Military or a Police Academy learn with automatics. There's a reason....they're better in several crucial ways.

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 12:40
The "Professional Training" place costs money. She doesn't have it. And since there is almost a 0% chance that where she learned to use a pistol will ever come up, who cares.

Then why don't you volunteer to train her then?

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 12:43
Did you see all these evidences in this case?

It couldn't have been maybe they were into rough sex and then he told her, "Ciao baby" and she got pissed off, calling the cops faking rape?

You were there? You saw everything happened with your own eyes?

It could have been carried live on TV and if she doesn't testify, the state won't prosecute. More than likely she will be fetching him a turkey pot-pie and Milwaukee's Best in a few weeks.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 12:46
The "Professional Training" place costs money. She doesn't have it. And since there is almost a 0% chance that where she learned to use a pistol will ever come up, who cares.

If she invites him in and ends up killing him, you can bet your ass that the OP will be spending long hours being interviewed, deposed, and testifying.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:48
And did those women then buy and carry Glocks? Will they remember how to use them when they haven't shot them in a year and a half? Do they clean the dust bunnies out of them? Did the lipstick in their purse depress the trigger?

Yes, you can show a novice how to shoot an auto. You can show a female novice how to shoot and auto easier than a male novice. Unless they are going to move beyond the novice stage, and shoot once a month and stay trained, a revolver will be a better choice. It can get bounced around in her purse for a decade and all she has to do is point it at the bad guy and sweep the trigger.

So can a G26, no problem.

However....

We're not talking about someone that is going to get a CCW and carry a pistol. We're talking about someone with a very clear and present (immediate) threat to their life. This is someone that needs a pistol right now, needs to become proficient with it quickly, and has a very real threat against her, probably more than any one currently on GT.

CCWs take months to get, we're not talking about CCWing at this point, maybe down the road a bit.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:48
Then why don't you volunteer to train her then?

I certainly would. No problem. But I'm in Virginia, that's a bit of a drive.

If a female I was close to was beaten and raped by an ex that is a future threat, and she came to me to learn about shooting, I would. Would you not?

bmylesk
07-02-2011, 12:51
kel tec PF9. got mine for 234. shoots reliable, cant go wrong. ive put just over 100 rounds flawlessly. don't let anyone else tell you the PF9 is BS. (do make sure to get the newer models though)

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:52
If she invites him in and ends up killing him, you can bet your ass that the OP will be spending long hours being interviewed, deposed, and testifying.

You're making so many negative assumptions, I can't count them all.

You're assuming the woman is lying.
You're assuming she will not testify.
You're assuming she will get back with him in the future.
You're assuming she is going to invite the guy over so she can kill him.

Why don't we wait until the OP clears things up a bit about the people involved?

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 12:54
So can a G26, no problem.

However....

We're not talking about someone that is going to get a CCW and carry a pistol. We're talking about someone with a very clear and present (immediate) threat to their life. This is someone that needs a pistol right now, needs to become proficient with it quickly, and has a very real threat against her, probably more than any one currently on GT.

CCWs take months to get, we're not talking about CCWing at this point, maybe down the road a bit.

So you have figured out that she's not going to carry this gun? Is there some kind of unwritten rule that violent ex's won't attack someone unless they are in the home? She doesn't need to wait months to get a CHP in AZ. Regardless, the gun should be carried and 99% of the gun enthusiasts I know aren't proficient enough with their guns to use a semi, let alone a novice who likely will never do more than shoot half a box through it if she shoots it at all.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 12:54
If she invites him in and ends up killing him, you can bet your ass that the OP will be spending long hours being interviewed, deposed, and testifying.

About what? Where is your imgaination taking this?

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 12:55
I certainly would. No problem. But I'm in Virginia, that's a bit of a drive.

What's a bit of a drive to go save a damsel in distress against a dastardly rapist?

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 13:00
You're making so many negative assumptions, I can't count them all.

You're assuming the woman is lying.
You're assuming she will not testify.
You're assuming she will get back with him in the future.
You're assuming she is going to invite the guy over so she can kill him.

Why don't we wait until the OP clears things up a bit about the people involved?

According to the sex crimes investigation training I received, 50% of all reports of sex crimes are bogus. According to my personal expirience, the number is higher. I didn't say she would invite him over to kill him. I said if she invites him over, and I can all but guarantee you she will, AND she ends up killing him, she will be investigated for a capital crime. If a capital crime is investigated, her phone records, purchases etc will be scrutinized. She will tell them when she is interviewed where she got the gun and how she learned to use it. If you don't think that will result in the party that supplied the gun and training to be interviewed, deposed and called to testify, you are half a bubble off.

There is simply nothing like seeing a woman in the supermarket with a man that you locked up six months earlier for stabbing her in the stomach so hard it broke the knife blade off. It just restores you whole faith in humanity:rofl:

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 13:00
So you have figured out that she's not going to carry this gun? Is there some kind of unwritten rule that violent ex's won't attack someone unless they are in the home? She doesn't need to wait months to get a CHP in AZ. Regardless, the gun should be carried and 99% of the gun enthusiasts I know aren't proficient enough with their guns to use a semi, let alone a novice who likely will never do more than shoot half a box through it if she shoots it at all.

I agree, but if a person doesn't stay up on their shooting skills, an auto like a G26 is easier to use (and actually hit the BG) than a similar sized revolver, based on trigger pull and sights alone.

Just like others, you like revolvers, and you'll go to any and all imaginative ends to support your choice. The reality is that autos dominate the market for many very, very good reason. They're better for HD/SD, easier to learn, easier to shoot.

You may not agree (and I know you won't), but that doesn't change reality.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 13:03
I agree, but if a person doesn't stay up on their shooting skills, an auto like a G26 is easier to use (and actually hit the BG) than a similar sized revolver, based on trigger pull and sights alone.

Just like others, you like revolvers, and you'll go to any and all imaginative ends to support your choice. The reality is that autos dominate the market for many very, very good reason. They're better for HD/SD, easier to learn, easier to shoot.

You may not agree (and I know you won't), but that doesn't change reality.

I don't much care for revolvers. I carry autos. Autos are easier to hit with, but they don't work well with chewing gun amd tampon wrappers jammed in them.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 13:05
According to the sex crimes investigation training I received, 50% of all reports of sex crimes are bogus. According to my personal expirience, the number is higher. I didn't say she would invite him over to kill him. I said if she invites him over, and I can all but guarantee you she will, AND she ends up killing him, she will be investigated for a capital crime. If a capital crime is investigated, her phone records, purchases etc will be scrutinized. She will tell them when she is interviewed where she got the gun and how she learned to use it. If you don't think that will result in the party that supplied the gun and training to be interviewed, deposed and called to testify, you are half a bubble off.

There is simply nothing like seeing a woman in the supermarket with a man that you locked up six months earlier for stabbing her in the stomach so hard it broke the knife blade off. It just restores you whole faith in humanity:rofl:

You're making negatiive assumptions based on your past experiences. Obviously, you have indeed lost your faith in humanity. Understood. I'm not, I'm assuming the woman is a good person, and simply wants to survive what is going on.


Now.

Are you going to give an exact court-case account of how someone that taught another how to use a firearm was brought into a case? Never heard of it, and won't believe it if you can't provide court transcripts. If this was a continuously occuring issue, shooting clubs and trainers would be out of buisness.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 13:09
You're making negatiive assumptions based on your past experiences. Obviously, you have indeed lost your faith in humanity. Understood. I'm not, I'm assuming the woman is a good person, and simply wants to survive what is going on.


Now.

Are you going to give an exact court-case account of how someone that taught another how to use a firearm was brought into a case? Never heard of it, and won't believe it if you can't provide court transcripts. If this was a continuously occuring issue, shooting clubs and trainers would be out of buisness.

No:wavey:

cowboy1964
07-02-2011, 13:23
Ruger LC9. Small, affordable, 9mm.

I agree about the snubby probably not being a good choice for a newbie. I shoot hundreds of rounds per week in various autos and the snubby is a chore. Fun, but it kicks more and has more blast than any auto I have. But some people may take to it right away.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 13:26
If you could provide one actual adjudicated case where a previously assaulted and raped female got charged with murder defending herself, I'd be shocked. Me thinks you have a twisted sense of the legal system.


http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.freebatteredwomen.org/pdfs/convsurv.pdf&sa=U&ei=zm8PTrb_J62s0AGGzbmsDg&ved=0CBMQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNG9d9vfmyiJgkrkFWQjaJPLDw1cOw
Download and read this .pdf. It talks about many cases where battered women were imprisoned after they killed their abuser.

Here's another good link.
http://www.hawthornedvrt.org/Women-and-Domestic-Violence.htm
"Currently there are 2,000 battered women in America who are serving prison time for defending their lives against their batterers."

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 14:00
What's a bit of a drive to go save a damsel in distress against a dastardly rapist?

I'm not her friend. The OP is.

TexAg
07-02-2011, 14:03
S&W Model 10 trade in or used. Load it up or down. Easy to train on and remember. My wife qualified with a G19, but she feels more comfortable with a revolver. Easier manual of arms. Model 10s can be found all over for under $300. It's a great loaner gun. All steel keeps the recoil down too.

AA#5
07-02-2011, 14:10
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

:thumbsup:

I'm always surprised at how many experienced shooters recommend what's best & safest for them, not for a beginner.

Plus, there is no such thing as a cheap, reliable auto. A reliable revolver can be had for way less money.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 14:10
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.freebatteredwomen.org/pdfs/convsurv.pdf&sa=U&ei=zm8PTrb_J62s0AGGzbmsDg&ved=0CBMQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNG9d9vfmyiJgkrkFWQjaJPLDw1cOw
Download and read this .pdf. It talks about many cases where battered women were imprisoned after they killed their abuser.

Here's another good link.
http://www.hawthornedvrt.org/Women-and-Domestic-Violence.htm
"Currently there are 2,000 battered women in America who are serving prison time for defending their lives against their batterers."

I perused as best as I could here at work. There's nothing in specific, just social work numbers put together to get an over-view of a specific problem, I'm not seeing any court cases where a woman was accused and charged with murder (wrongly) for defending herself against an attacker/rapist. I have never heard of hundreds or thousands of women being wrongfuly accused and convicted of murder over a self-defense issue.

I'm confused, and I don't think we're having the same conversation. I also think you're negative view of human beings has you assuming many negatives in this particualr situation. I don't share your view-point, and will continue to assume the woman this thread is about is not going to murder her ex over this, she just wants to be able to defend herself in case he attacks her again.

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 14:11
:thumbsup:

I'm always surprised at how many experienced shooters recommend what's best & safest for them, not for a beginner.

Plus, there is no such thing as a cheap, reliable auto. A reliable revolver can be had for way less money.


Used G26. Better than any similar sized revolver in many ways.

TKM
07-02-2011, 14:15
I don't believe she would be that worried about comfort. Two pound gun versus 200 lb assailant. Which one can you take for more than a couple of minutes?

I imagine she would cheerfully take the recoil from almost anything in the pursuit of self-defense.

Foxtrotx1
07-02-2011, 14:23
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

I disagree. The notion that women/ newbs can't learn semi autos is stupid. Can they use a computer? Can they drive a car? Can they do taxes? Then they can load a magazine.

Schrag4
07-02-2011, 14:31
Ruger SR9C, Ruger LC9

Less concealable but still reliable: S&W Sigma(HEAVY trigger), Ruger P-series, police trade-in S&W 3rd Gen.

Taurus revolvers are actually good quality. The only downsides to a revolver are a little heavier trigger pull, less capacity, and how long it takes to reload even with speed loaders.

While I love my Ruger SR9c, the recoil spring is quite heavy. I have no problem with it but I'm guessing she'll hate it (my wife has trouble with it anyway).

railfancwb
07-02-2011, 14:43
Whatever she gets, revolver or semi-automatic, I recommend adding and sighting in a CrimsonTrace laser grip/guard. I prefer that brand because it is activated automatically when the gun is gripped for shooting.

Haldor
07-02-2011, 14:51
My fiance's friend from work has an abusive ex that's been stalking/harrassing her for months. Yesterday he came to her house, and beat her senseless, raped her, and threatened to kill her. The police arrested him and he is currently locked up, but no telling when/how quickly he will get out.

She's been asking us to take her to the range and teach her about guns and how to shoot - she knows absolutely nothing about firearms, but after speaking to her, she has made up her mind to carry and take this seriously. I'm taking her tomorrow first thing - but she needs to get a handgun. Her main problem is money - I told her the best bet would to be to pawn whatever she can, and get a new/used glock26 - I have a feeling she won't be able to get the money required to afford a glock.

My question is: What are a few affordable but RELIABLE pistols, that are smaller or around the size of a g26 - 9mm is preferred but 380 is as low as I think she should go. Her ex is 300+lb's, I'm concerned about a 380's ability to penetrate reliably.

Any suggestions?

She is not going to be comfortable with a pistol if the grip is too large for her. A gun that fits you perfectly may be a poor choice for her. I suggest that she try out any pistol at the range before buying it. My wife tried a number of guns before finally settling on a Springfield Armory XD-9-SC. The biggest issue is being able to grip the gun properly and still reach the trigger easily. If she has to rotate the gun in her grip to reach the trigger then it is too big for her.

Rather than worrying about saving a few bucks on the gun, worry about buying a gun she ends up not wanting to shoot (been there a couple of times and got the t-shirt). It is cheaper to get a gun she likes the first time even if it costs a bit more.

Really good info here for the female shooter.

http://corneredcat.com/

Here is a great explanation of how to choose a gun that fits you.

http://corneredcat.com/FirstGun/tryongun.aspx

M&P15T
07-02-2011, 14:53
I disagree. The notion that women/ newbs can't learn semi autos is stupid. Can they use a computer? Can they drive a car? Can they do taxes? Then they can load a magazine.

You got it!!! I taught 4 different females to shoot. Not one of them had the slightest bit of a problem.

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 15:23
I'm not her friend. The OP is.

The OP isn't her friend. The OP's fiancee is her friend.

Bruce M
07-02-2011, 15:25
None of which will be believed by the OP until he finds out that the victim has refused to testify in court.

Maybe not all the time, but if I were gonna place a wager of more than 5 bucks its how I would bet

I'd recommend to stay out of this volatile situation. It's "he said/she said" right now. .

I agree

If she invites him in and ends up killing him, you can bet your ass that the OP will be spending long hours being interviewed, deposed, and testifying.

I wouldn't necessarily bet on the testifying part, but my guess is that even the interviews by the homicide investigators would be enough to strongly discourage me. And thats when you know them... I can only imagine what might be like if you don't.



You're making so many negative assumptions, I can't count them all.

You're assuming the woman is lying.
You're assuming she will not testify.
You're assuming she will get back with him in the future.
You're assuming she is going to invite the guy over so she can kill him.

Why don't we wait until the OP clears things up a bit about the people involved?

Yes but after having seen it dozens or hundreds of times, it is certainly a safe way to bet what the results will be.

According to the sex crimes investigation training I received, 50% of all reports of sex crimes are bogus. According to my personal expirience, the number is higher. .... If you don't think that will result in the party that supplied the gun and training to be interviewed, deposed and called to testify, you are half a bubble off...

y


If you supplied the gun and she kills him and you don't think you will be up to your ears in interviews, statements, etc. half a bubble is probably kind.

I am sure my limited experience is to small to draw any valid statistical conclusions, but I have responded initially to a couple hundred rape/sexual battery calls. I have been to more plane crashes than I have been a call in which a total stranger actually raped the victim. (Not suggesting that a known person cannot commit a rape.) I have been to more plane crashes than I have been to court to testify in a sexual battery case.

Bruce M
07-02-2011, 15:28
If those 18 year old yahoos over in General Glocking can first learn to shoot using a Glock, so can a woman.

I do not wish to jump into the revolver versus pistol fray, however I would gladly nominate this for the single sentence post of the month award :rofl::rofl:

fnfalman
07-02-2011, 15:31
I disagree. The notion that women/ newbs can't learn semi autos is stupid. Can they use a computer? Can they drive a car? Can they do taxes? Then they can load a magazine.

I don't know. Can they drive a car?

http://images.picturesdepot.com/photo/w/woman_driver-4183.jpg

Comedian
07-02-2011, 15:40
Its worth it, for her to learn how to use a semi auto. I would tell her to get a Glock 19 and i would show her how to operate it and also take her to the range, etc. My wife never touched a pistol of any kind and had no problem her 1st time at the range with all my Sig's & HK's. She even shot a Springfield TRP 1911 in 45 and did quite well, with no previous experience shooting whatsoever.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 15:49
It's one thing to shoot a semi at the range where you're not under dire, life and death stress. It's quite another to try and clear a malfunction when someone is coming at you and you're adrenalin is sky high and you're shaking like a leaf in the breeze. Still think a revolver is more "idiot proof" for a Non-Shooter then a semi auto and no one will change my mind on that fact.

Also, you've been warned, if she does end up shooting and killing her ex-jerk of a boy friend and they drag her into court and ask her where she got the idea of getting a gun in the first place it's not going to be a cake walk. Lawyers can and do twist stuff around to win a case day in and day out. Just be ready, that's all I'm saying.

ScarFace88
07-02-2011, 15:55
Can they drive a car?

Some people would say no... :whistling:

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 16:10
I am sure my limited experience is to small to draw any valid statistical conclusions, but I have responded initially to a couple hundred rape/sexual battery calls. I have been to more plane crashes than I have been a call in which a total stranger actually raped the victim. (Not suggesting that a known person cannot commit a rape.) I have been to more plane crashes than I have been to court to testify in a sexual battery case.

That paragraph is literary gold.

dwalker84
07-02-2011, 16:12
First off I'd like to thank everyone for their recommendations =) I really appreciate it.

I actually think the whole new shooter + woman = revolver, period. is slightly offensive. As if they're too stupid to figure out the gun, yes a revolver is simple, if it fails to fire, pull the trigger again. But the downside is the capacity and the average heavy trigger pull, I think having a really heavy trigger to start off with is a discouraging thing, especially when learning accuracy and trigger control - I started off with a revolver and my accuracy jumped through the roof when I got my first glock. Capacity; If the average police officer hit rate is 25%, then what is the hit rate for a new shooter who has a 300 pound nutcase charging them. With that in mind, if she hits him, that's one shot - chances are hes not going to drop.

I think a semi-auto is an excellent choice for a new shooter/woman. I will do my best to drill the malfunction drills as best I can, but I think she will have absolutely no problem learning. I would prefer a glock for her as there are no safeties to mess with.

We are bringing out my fiance's ruger LCR, my glock26, and mossberg 590A1 (going to let her keep it at her house until she gets the pistol).

I think a revolver would be great if that's all she can afford, but ultimately I think they're best utilized as a BUG - I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's just my opinion.


What do you guys think about the Ruger LCP 380? I'm not a fan of 380, but it's tiny as hell, could be pocket carried and the recoil couldn't be that bad. I was thinking of getting one for my 8 year old for his first pistol, I noticed the price new was 285.00 which is great. How well do you think a 380 would do against a heavy set man? Don't forget we are in Tucson, Arizona and no one will be wearing leather coats or heavy clothing for the next 5-6 months. Everyone is in T-shirts.

dwalker84
07-02-2011, 16:26
Also I'd like to mention to those who said I'm putting myself in potential legal liability;
I will not sit idly if I can possibly help prevent the rape/death of another human being who ASKS for help.

Also - The officers who responded said to her "buy a gun immediately and be prepared to defend yourself, because he WILL come back, and we can only help after the fact."

Luckily for her Arizona does not require a CCW permit to carry concealed or open, and there are no waiting periods. I'm proud to live in a state where one can enjoy freedom.

federali
07-02-2011, 16:40
Mindset, knowledge, judgment, tactics, marksmanship, firearm. These are the basic six elements, in order of importance, that keep armed people alive, whether a police officer, store keeper or ordinary CCW. Any training she receives must go far beyond how to shoot so and so gun. Police officers who were members of their department's competitive shooting teams have died in shootouts, mainly as a result of problems with mindset and tactics.

Very difficult to take a novice and instill a sufficient degree of skill in a short period of time. Needless to say, she must insure that her residence is fortified within reason. She must know how to enter and leave her residence without finding an arm around her neck and a knife in her ribs. She must enlist neighbors willing to inform her or call the police if anyone is loitering near her residence. She must be a sufficient wheel-woman that she can't be easily forced off the road. She must be suspicious of all solicitations so as not to venture into a trap. She must carry a gun (if legal in your area) as though she might actually need it. I might add I hate when women put guns in purses. She must vary her schedule. Also, the trap she anticipates at her residence might occur where you does her shopping or dry cleaning etc. Heck, could write a book here.

ScarFace88
07-02-2011, 16:41
On a serious note, what about an H&K P7?

Minnow
07-02-2011, 16:42
I would suggest you direct the other gal to a professional introductory handgun class, and leave it at that. She will figure out the rest if she's for real. Anybody can figure out on their own how to get a gun if they "need" one. You can suggest your favorites all you want. Proceed with caution, both your wife and you.

jehowe
07-02-2011, 16:47
So sorry to hear this, I hope he stays in jail and she is able to get whatever help she needs. Setting the gun issue aside, make sure she has training and the mental preparedness of what defending oneself means. Until then, I'd be a bit nervous of her having a handgun and the chance that it might be used against her.

Brian Lee
07-02-2011, 16:59
If you decide on a J Frame, there is a laser available for it that's not too steep.

http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Gun_Sights/CK-SW/CK-SW.html

It's may not be pretty up close, but it's got all metal construction, and it's very solid on the gun.

donmontalvo
07-02-2011, 17:00
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

I couldn't agree more. I would get her the .32 caliber Pink Lady:

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_PinkLady32_53230.html

I know, it's a bit much. But if you can prove the story, I'm happy to chip in $20 towards the gun. I have two sisters, and the thought of either of them being attacked makes my blood boil.

Don

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 17:15
Also I'd like to mention to those who said I'm putting myself in potential legal liability;
I will not sit idly if I can possibly help prevent the rape/death of another human being who ASKS for help.

Also - The officers who responded said to her "buy a gun immediately and be prepared to defend yourself, because he WILL come back, and we can only help after the fact."

Luckily for her Arizona does not require a CCW permit to carry concealed or open, and there are no waiting periods. I'm proud to live in a state where one can enjoy freedom.

Ask her to show you a copy of her final restraining order. If she doesn't have one of those, she hasn't been serious about keeping him away from her.

Bruce M
07-02-2011, 18:00
Also I'd like to mention to those who said I'm putting myself in potential legal liability;
I will not sit idly if I can possibly help prevent the rape/death of another human being who ASKS for help...

.

Potentially highly commendable. And I wish you nothing but the best in this. Still, I would be passively curious as to any history of domestic violence and the history of what she did (or did not do) after previous incidents.

WiskyT
07-02-2011, 18:02
Potentially highly commendable. And I wish you nothing but the best in this. Still, I would be passively curious as to any history of domestic violence and the history of what she did (or did not do) after previous incidents.

Good point. She could be one of the certain persons not allowed to have a firearm.

ScottieG59
07-02-2011, 18:45
You should not be offended is a someone recommends a revolver for a new shooter, especially one who is female. Smaller and easier to conceal automatics are hard to rack, even for some men. Most women tend to be weaker; not all, but most. You can pack more power in a small revolver and they can be easier to use in awkward positions, such as one may be in while being attacked and terrified. Slmall revolvers are not wimpy girly guns. You can get a Ruger LCR in 357 Magnum and it will be the size of a J frame Smith & Wesson. The J frame is the best bet along with laser grips, such as from Crimson Trace. It is often the one I carry.

Small automatics are often very picky about the ammo they will reliably feed and the shooter must maintain a firm grip. Also, the revolver can be fired when covered by a coat pocket or a blanket. The revolver should have a fully enclosed hammer (double action only) and something that will not rust easily. I carry two or three speed loaders, but reloading is not at all fast with a J frame, since ejection is hampered by the shorter stroke.

To deploy weapons in combat, get the appropriate training and conceal carry permits. Also, be prepared to be committed to carrying even when you do not think you are in danger. The person who attacks may not be the same person and attackers rarely announce their criminal intentions. Training is important as is situational awareness.

See help from crime victim support groups. While in the middle of the crisis, one is not the expert in survival. Talk to people who know what to expect and how to minimize the odds of being a victim again. As a victim of crime, many of us are not our own best friends and we can often undermine our own interests.

Also, crime victims should get counseling to deal with the emotional impact. It is way too easy to start on the right side of the law and end out on the wrong side. I personally understand the fear and anger; to survive, you must control your response.

TN.Frank
07-02-2011, 18:46
I actually think the whole new shooter + woman = revolver, period. is slightly offensive. As if they're too stupid to figure out the gun, yes a revolver is simple, if it fails to fire, pull the trigger again.

Um, I consider myself to be a pretty gun savvy guy and I was into revolvers for years, I love em'. It has nothing to do with intelligence or gender, it's the fact that they go "bang" each and every time you pull the trigger. I'd still not feel under gunned with a good 4" K Frame .357Mag.
Just make sure if she does go semi you teach her the Immediate action drills and let her shoot enough to be totally comfortable with the gun.
Best of luck and hopefully things won't come to her having to take a human life in order to preserve her own.

ScottieG59
07-02-2011, 19:01
Also I'd like to mention to those who said I'm putting myself in potential legal liability;
I will not sit idly if I can possibly help prevent the rape/death of another human being who ASKS for help.

Also - The officers who responded said to her "buy a gun immediately and be prepared to defend yourself, because he WILL come back, and we can only help after the fact."

Luckily for her Arizona does not require a CCW permit to carry concealed or open, and there are no waiting periods. I'm proud to live in a state where one can enjoy freedom.

Though Arizona does not require a permit, I believe they still have the process to get one. I would get the permit in order to be able to travel to other states with reciprocity. Also, Florida offers non-resident permits that will add some more states. What good is a gun if you can not take it when you travel.

I agree with the police officer about the fact that the guy will come back. I would hope the victim support group would cover this too.

I do not know what the sentencing guidance is in Arizona, but when someone breaks into an occupied home, it tends to be a long time. I would not count on being notified when he gets out or if he escapes.

Work on dealing with the support group or groups. It will be difficult to move on if you fail to work on yourself, including the behaviors that lead into abusive relationships and the painful aftermath.

G31
07-02-2011, 20:08
Ruger P-series autos are cheap and reliable, but not the size of a G26. S&W anything is good, and some are small (6906, 3913, 908). Most of these can be had for under $300 used. The S&W 908 is probably the cheapest good subcompact pistol you will be able to find. It is the economy 3913...around $250 or 300.

The_Gun_Guru
07-02-2011, 20:22
My fiance's friend from work has an abusive ex that's been stalking/harrassing her for months. Yesterday he came to her house, and beat her senseless, raped her, and threatened to kill her. The police arrested him and he is currently locked up, but no telling when/how quickly he will get out.

She's been asking us to take her to the range and teach her about guns and how to shoot - she knows absolutely nothing about firearms, but after speaking to her, she has made up her mind to carry and take this seriously. I'm taking her tomorrow first thing - but she needs to get a handgun. Her main problem is money - I told her the best bet would to be to pawn whatever she can, and get a new/used glock26 - I have a feeling she won't be able to get the money required to afford a glock.

My question is: What are a few affordable but RELIABLE pistols, that are smaller or around the size of a g26 - 9mm is preferred but 380 is as low as I think she should go. Her ex is 300+lb's, I'm concerned about a 380's ability to penetrate reliably.

Any suggestions?


The two magic words.....AFFORDABLE and RELIABLE:wavey:

Your only choice....BERSA!!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238411798

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239450313

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239193884

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238915567



You can get 9mm Black Talons on GunBroker as well.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239232165

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238653054

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239018884

I wish her all the best.

TGG

txgunguy
07-02-2011, 20:38
Sounds awful. Lend her one of yours if you have extras. Ruger p95 or p89 is an excellent semi auto gun. A used glock can be had in the same price range. At any rate, help her get something, and now.

themighty9mm
07-02-2011, 20:50
.

Neither have any of the 12 GLOCK pistols I've owned. Ever. Not in tens of thousands of rounds. Not with me shooting them, or any of the females I've taught to use them. And never have I either witnessed or heard of anyone accidently dropping a magazine out of an auto. And I don't agree that a revolver has a simpler manual of arms. Slap a mag in, cycle the action, done. Simple. One trigger to learn, less recoil, better sights, higher capacity, etc., etc.

You like revolvers, and you'll go to any imaginative lengths to support your position. All I have to do is point out that autos have eclipsed revolvers in sales to civilians, and 100% with Military and LEOs, for decades. That's it.
Military and LEOs also have routine qualifacations, and that means they will be practicing the manual of arms. Most civilians do not. Especially ones not much into guns.

Revolvers also have 1 trigger to learn. If its a SA revolver cock then pull. If DA, then just pull. You have the option to cock but is by no means in any way required. Better sights? Not so much, of course model dependent aswell. The manual of arms with a DA revolver is increadably simple. Open cylinder, load, close, shoot, repeat. Only one catch for the cylinder. Then the trigger. No other buttons, or releases. As far as less recoil. Again model and caliber dependent. Also mag springs can and will wear out. For someone not very into guns, that may very well load it and forget it. A revolver could be a very good thing.

With autos, glocks included. I have witnessed and in some cases experienced a varity a malfunctions. While revolvers can indeed have their own set of problems, IME its a much smaller chance. As far as the mag release being press and mags falling out. While I have not seen it I have accidently held down the slide release. So I can cetainly see a mag release button on accident being pressed.

While I am a big auto fan, revolvers very much so have their place. IMO even more so with people that just dont shoot often. If the OPs lady friend is set on a auto by all means please do. IMO they do reguir a bit more practice, and as a general rule are more maintence dependant. Though revolvers cant exactly go without cleaning and maintence either, they can function dry without much worry of a malfunction. Cant say that about many autos

TACC GLOCK
07-02-2011, 20:58
So sorry to hear this, I hope he stays in jail and she is able to get whatever help she needs. Setting the gun issue aside, make sure she has training and the mental preparedness of what defending oneself means. Until then, I'd be a bit nervous of her having a handgun and the chance that it might be used against her.

Additionally, until you can get not only the right gun but the training to go along with it, maybe you could give her some serious pepper spray or mace to so she can at least feel some sort of protection.

The_Gun_Guru
07-02-2011, 21:20
Additionally, until you can get not only the right gun but the training to go along with it, maybe you could give her some serious pepper spray or mace to so she can at least feel some sort of protection.


I think that would just piss him off.

Get her a gun.

Show her how to use it.

Get her in the right mindset.

Tell her that when (NOT if) he shows up again, it will not be for casual conversation.

Tell her to shoot him!

TGG

Fox
07-03-2011, 06:58
Get her a S&W Model 10 service revolver.

voyager4520
07-03-2011, 07:44
Luckily for her Arizona does not require a CCW permit to carry concealed or open, and there are no waiting periods. I'm proud to live in a state where one can enjoy freedom.

Mmmmmmmmmm........the sweet smell of freedom. :supergrin:

federali
07-03-2011, 08:05
First, never loan firearms to anyone. You are civilly responsible for any damage done with it. If I cut my finger off with a circular saw you loaned me, I sue you. I win. You may also face criminal responsibility for the ciminal misuse of your guns.

While I can't site specific civil cases, Massad Ayoob has warned against guns that can be cocked. First, there are cases of cocked guns going off. The classic case taught in police academies during revolver days was that of an officer holding an individual face down on the ground (no resistance) but the cocked gun discharged into the back of the perp's head. Or, the lawyer says you didn't intend to the pull the trigger as your justificaton wasn't clear but your "hair" trigger caused the discharge.

M&P15T
07-03-2011, 09:15
Just make sure if she does go semi you teach her the Immediate action drills and let her shoot enough to be totally comfortable with the gun.

If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.

Military and LEOs also have routine qualifacations, and that means they will be practicing the manual of arms. Most civilians do not. Especially ones not much into guns.

I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the public gun-store range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught, not even close.

Revolvers also have 1 trigger to learn. If its a SA revolver cock then pull. If DA, then just pull. You have the option to cock but is by no means in any way required. Better sights? Not so much, of course model dependent aswell. The manual of arms with a DA revolver is increadably simple. Open cylinder, load, close, shoot, repeat. Only one catch for the cylinder. Then the trigger. No other buttons, or releases. As far as less recoil. Again model and caliber dependent. Also mag springs can and will wear out. For someone not very into guns, that may very well load it and forget it. A revolver could be a very good thing.

Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.

With autos, glocks included. I have witnessed and in some cases experienced a varity a malfunctions. While revolvers can indeed have their own set of problems, IME its a much smaller chance. As far as the mag release being press and mags falling out. While I have not seen it I have accidently held down the slide release. So I can cetainly see a mag release button on accident being pressed.

And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCK pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.

Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.

While I am a big auto fan, revolvers very much so have their place. IMO even more so with people that just dont shoot often. If the OPs lady friend is set on a auto by all means please do. IMO they do reguir a bit more practice, and as a general rule are more maintence dependant. Though revolvers cant exactly go without cleaning and maintence either, they can function dry without much worry of a malfunction. Cant say that about many autos

I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.

WiskyT
07-03-2011, 09:19
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.



I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught.



Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.



And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCk pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.

Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.



I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.

It's like having Donald Trump on GTalk:rofl:

M&P15T
07-03-2011, 09:21
First, never loan firearms to anyone. You are civilly responsible for any damage done with it. If I cut my finger off with a circular saw you loaned me, I sue you. I win. You may also face criminal responsibility for the ciminal misuse of your guns.

While I can't site specific civil cases, Massad Ayoob has warned against guns that can be cocked. First, there are cases of cocked guns going off. The classic case taught in police academies during revolver days was that of an officer holding an individual face down on the ground (no resistance) but the cocked gun discharged into the back of the perp's head. Or, the lawyer says you didn't intend to the pull the trigger as your justificaton wasn't clear but your "hair" trigger caused the discharge.

Castle Doctrine. No civil responsibility if justifiable SD shooting.

And the OP can just say he gave it to her. Again, more seriously twisted ideas on how the judicial/civil system works. If you really think that someone that gets their fingers cut-off with a borrowed saw is going to win civil damages against the person that loaned it to them, call a lawyer and pretend you've just lost your fingers, and want to sue your friend/neighbor who loaned you the saw.

He'll laugh and hang-up the phone.

Man, there is too much fear of lawyers in here. They're idiots, and can be shut down hard and fast if you're smart. And with Castle Doctrine in many states, there isn't civil liability in SD shooting cases anymore.

M&P15T
07-03-2011, 09:23
It's like having Donald Trump on GTalk:rofl:

My hair is sooo much better than the Don's!!:rofl:

TurtleBoy617
07-03-2011, 09:26
There has been some good advice here on firearms, I too agree that if she doesn't have any firearm experience to start her off with a small revolver. If she is willing to familiarize herself with a semi-auto, then by all means help her out.

But as others have said, make sure she is comfortable with the function, and has prepared herself mentally to be willing to use this kind of force if need be. I would also recommend counseling, and training her for proper use of force, so if she does see this scum again that the first thing she does isn't to instantly pull out her weapon and/or fire.

Sorry to hear about this, I don't know how anybody could treat another person like this.

TN.Frank
07-03-2011, 10:14
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.


It really has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Ammo can and does fail, mags do fail, people do limp wrist autos and the gun will fail. If you're going to shoot a semi you need to learn "Tap, Rack, Bang" or don't use a semi.
Even if there's only a .1% chance of something going wrong you need to be ready for the .1% chance.

Aceman
07-03-2011, 10:17
Wow - lot's to think about here. Interesting on "What if..." level. What would I do for such a person? Hard to give my best answer....lot's of assumptions. Let me see if I can hit the high points.

#1 CAREFULLY consider even getting involved in the first place. As was mentioned by many - the frame of mind / wellness of the person in question is a HIGH concern. You have no idea how/why this woman is involved with this guy. But let's go here...

Best Case Scenario: She was completely wronged by the accused. He is crazy. If it gets to him that you are assisting in her protection, you and yours are now in his sights potentially.

Worst Case: She is a damaged person who will forever be beaten and abused by those involved. You are wasting your time.

Strange Case: She is now psycho and you will be implicated for her plotted murder of the guy wether he is found guilty or not. Can you get hung for this? I doubt it, but I don't know. Can it be a hassle? Oh yes.

Domestic violence happens for a reason - Not the first reason, but the biggest is that women allow it. Not saying they can't change. But I have sat in that court room on a jury watching police time and tax payer dollars get flushed down the drain...

#2 Counseling, legal dotting of i's and crossing of t's, and layers of protection. One of the best threads here. That advice ALWAYS applies. Way better than the details of this vs that firearm. Move / hide / change the numbers, restraining orders, alarm systems, dog, good doors/locks/windows etc...go very very far.

Assuming that she is correct in her presentation (and I don't know - so I'm devil's advocating), she should be doing ALL of that as well. Better for him to not get in than get in and the shoot decision need made in the first place. Of course, if she invites him in to discuss things...all for nothing. By the way - new locks are expensive. If she hasn't prioritized these things and the money for them - she needs to get her head right.

#3 Which gun? I have said this a ton, and I'll say it again. For home defense:

The number one thing you need is a PLAN. More important than any specific weapon.

The plan should ideally be: Sit in safe room with 12g (or 20g...) and a cell phone pointed at the only entrance/choke point and wait for the po-po.

I honestly don't care what the gun is. This is more important than any of it. Once the use of the gun comes into play - all kinds of facors at work. Let's avoid it and stay safe before it even gets to that. But if it gets there - lt's keep us, the neighbors and everyone else involved/informed/safe!

#3 If we go gun, and we do have a plan, etc... #1 issue is willing to get the skill. The cost of a gun - let's not even worry about the semi v wheel factor is nothing. The number one way to skill and competency is time on trigger. Time on trigger requires a range and ammo. I'd generally say a cheaper gun and more ammo is better than an expensive gun and no ammo. But how many rounds to you think are needed for basic self defense competency? I'll throw out 2000 (low # imo). In 9mm WWB from wally-world, that's roughly $500 - not including the range time if needed, or the gun. Or the time to shoot!

As was said about mindset, she claims this, but as always, $$$ comes into play. As a prepper, I always say better to have something cheap and now, than a plan to buy something expensive when you need it. But you can't discount that to use the Nasal Pharyngeal Tube you need training...and it's pretty useless without it.

If she isn't going to train, better to invest in the locks etc, IMO. But there is a cost to safety. Check out what it REALLY is.

I always do this drill at the range; The VERY FIRST SHOTS of ANY trip: Wife (or me) closes eyes, puts gun in hand, and I put the target somewhere closer/farther. Tap on the shoulder and open and shoot. Would you have STOPPED the threat? For fun, add a snap cap, hand the gun is less than good to go, or mag out etc...and run the clock. It will make you think...

Training basic/active shooting is a second great idea. But again, $$$.

#5 OK - we are all the way here. Which gun?

I still say, if we are in Home defense mode, dollar for dollar, effectiveness overall, amount of practice to competency, the all around winner will be the Shotgun. Less expensive gun, long gun for accuracy benefit, shot factor for slightly larger window on effectiveness, easier to gain competency in less rounds of practice, than ANY handgun.

If we are going handgun - I honestly don't care. But like I said - see the "skill" factor above. I can put a 12/20g in someone's hands, run my little range drill and get them extremely effective in hundreds of rounds - not thousands. The complexity factor of a semi is a factor. The barrel length/trigger/grip on short revolvers is an even bigger factor.

I'd say go semi in general. The reliability factor is ONLY an issue if you haven't actually tested the reliability. Old timers need to let go of that. My USP has NEVER failed. It will put more lead down range, faster, on target than ANY revolver you can put against it. I know every mag works perfectly. I know the gun works flawlessly. But I have trained with it extensively. Including tap/rack/bang, mag changes, etc...

Revolvers also have problems - they CAN fail. When they do, tap/rack/bang doesn't make them go again. My main issue with a revolvers (and don't get me wrong - love them!) *assuming short barrel...
#1 Short barrel - practice can overcome anything, but a nice 4-5" barrel on a semi is a good thing when it comes to hitting a target.
#2 Trigger - tough triggers mess up accuracy period. Hard to beat a semi in SA mode.
#3 Capacity - hopefully you won't need it, but you can't use it if you don't have it.
#4 Sights - see number one - especially if short barreled.

Yes practice can overcome any of these. But again, you need to practice. A DAO, 5 shot, short barrel.


I know a lot of this is assuming that carry is not the issue, and snub is the choice...

Still a lot of issues before the specific gun even comes into play....

Intersting situation Good luck. My sister in law (who is of questionable judgement) calls people who she has been to their house once to deliver a party invitation "friends" if they have a nice foyer. Just a final thought.

For the record - as a husband and father of a daughter: If this dude behaved as it was stated...I think death penalty is appropriate much more so than jail. Nothing burns me more than my $$$ paying to feed human waste and scum like that.

Good luck.

Aceman
07-03-2011, 10:18
It really has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Ammo can and does fail, mags do fail, people do limp wrist autos and the gun will fail. If you're going to shoot a semi you need to learn "Tap, Rack, Bang" or don't use a semi.
Even if there's only a .1% chance of something going wrong you need to be ready for the .1% chance.

Amen! Did you not just read that my USP has NEVER failed (multiple unknown thousands of rounds) yet I still do those things!

pennlineman
07-03-2011, 10:24
For someone who has nothing more than a passive interest in a firearm there is nothing simpler to operate than a revolver. Load, close the cylinder and shoot. The difficulty of the double action trigger pull is being over exaggerated and easily mastered. As is the issue of recoil which can be regulated with ammo selection and an all steel gun. Avoid the alloy frames.

Would I force a revolver on her? No! But I sure would have take a look at them.
If she is willing to put the training in, a bottom feeder could be a good choice as well.

Choosing a firearm is a personal decision. Too many of you guys think what's best for you is best for everyone. She should be given some guidance and be able to handle and perhaps test fire some of the different platforms out there to find what she likes. As hard as it may be for some of you people to understand there are many good weapons out there besides Glock. It may be right for you but wrong for someone else. Revolvers and autoloaders from all respectable manufacturers should be considered.

themighty9mm
07-03-2011, 10:35
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.

Always a need to learn failure drills if you plan on counting on a machine to save your life

I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the public gun-store range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught, not even close.

I always heard it was once every 6 months. In my years of going to public ranges, only 1 time could I identify a guy as a cop I think he was just in training at that. Guess I should have said any cops thats wanting to go home at the end of the shift.

Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.

See I find IME I am more accurate in DAO. Now I relize its not the same for everyone. I also have found out of the box w/o mucking with the internals revolvers have a better (smoother crisper) trigger than many autos. The exception being taurus.

And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCK pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.
But its far less likely to hit anything or screw anything up with less controls
Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.
I do agree. I have found though, IMOE. The chances of a revolver experiencing any issues related to jams are few. Not saying it doesnt happen. I know they do. When the do its far more complex than racking the slide or removing the mag. But the chance of it happening at all are more slim, than with a auto


I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

The DA pull on most revolvers is very easy to learn. No different than learning the spongy trigger on a glock. Low capacity, you have my there. However the chance of most civilian going through 6-7 rounds in a gunfight are very slim. So that point is almost moot. Multiple steps? Open cylider, insert bullets, close, shoot. Or extract mag, insert mag, slam slide home, shoot. I dont agree with 38spl being anemic. No more so than 9mm. 9mm may travel faster but thith 38 you can get heavier bullets. So it will kinda turn into a 45acp vs 9mm. And that point will be moot. As far as sights. Some revolvers have IMO, sights far better than any stock auto. Recoil and muzzle rise is greatly dependant on weight and caliber.
But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.
I agree, I am a fan of both. Both have their positives and negatives. As long as whatever the lady gets she works with a good bit, she should be fine

Berto
07-03-2011, 10:54
I'd get at least 3 trips in at a local pistol range with her, let her determine what weapon she likes and can operate efficiently.
If she likes he semi auto, guns like the G19 and 3913 would be excellent.
In a revolver, a medium frame like the K frame .38sp or Ruger's GP100 are excellent loaded with a decent .38sp. Make sure she learns to shoot DA.

Deployment Solu
07-03-2011, 11:05
CDNN is practically giving away Sig p250s. As far as semis go, that would be the best to learn with.

This is the gun my wife carries. 17rds(16 rd mags) and a not too bad DA trigger pull. I spent some time with her teaching her about malfunction clearances and why you carry a spare mag and we are good to go!!!I hope she never has a malfunction, but if she does, she is proficient in clearing any of them.

We put over 500 rds (400 WWB and 100rds 124"P Golddots) through it before we let her carry it. Before that it was an SP101 DAO for her EDC.

stevemc
07-03-2011, 12:45
Did not read all the posts so sorry if has been discussed. Get the restraining order. Buying a gun and throwing it in the drawer may get her killed. Most women hate violence and would hesitate shooting someone, giving him time to wrest the gun away and using it on her before or even after being shot himself. Be very careful. Mace, tazer, 911, close neighbors on speed dial. Consider other options as well. Preparation and exercise to the point of not thinking about it is the best way to avoid freezing in a high stress situation. He needs to be prosecuted. Any cop will tell you that the domestic calls are the most dangerous by far. Hope all works out OK.

BAILIFF
07-03-2011, 13:01
S&W Model 10 trade in or used. Load it up or down. Easy to train on and remember. My wife qualified with a G19, but she feels more comfortable with a revolver. Easier manual of arms. Model 10s can be found all over for under $300. It's a great loaner gun. All steel keeps the recoil down too.

Four pages for the right answer...sheesh.

The stainless version, the 64, with a round butt. 2, 3, or 4 inch barrel.
If you can find one of the old NY-1 spurless, even better.
Stick a Tyler T Grip in there or a set of Hogue's, good to go.

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/973/images9603117.jpg

TN.Frank
07-03-2011, 13:17
Did not read all the posts so sorry if has been discussed. Get the restraining order. Buying a gun and throwing it in the drawer may get her killed. Most women hate violence and would hesitate shooting someone, giving him time to wrest the gun away and using it on her before or even after being shot himself. Be very careful. Mace, tazer, 911, close neighbors on speed dial. Consider other options as well. Preparation and exercise to the point of not thinking about it is the best way to avoid freezing in a high stress situation. He needs to be prosecuted. Any cop will tell you that the domestic calls are the most dangerous by far. Hope all works out OK.

Thanks you for a common sense answer to this problem. This is what I've been saying all through this thread but many seem to ignore this logic. It's just not as cut and dry as getting a gun, letting her put a few rounds through it and then leaving her to fend for herself in the face of mortal danger.
There are better options rather then just throwing hot lead at the situation which may or may not get her into even more problems then she already has.

P.S.
I would recommend picking up a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" and having her read through it so she'll understand the implications of using Deadly Force. I had this book in the past and read it and it was a real eye opener.

Bruce M
07-03-2011, 14:42
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.



.


No offense, but it would seem one or three (other) instructors would disagree with this.

Willieboy
07-03-2011, 14:52
If the woman is in immediate danger, how about a restraining order for a near term remedy???

If it was my daughter, I'd recommend a Ruger LCR .38 Special, or, if she has the strength to handle an auto, maybe a Kahr CW9 or CM9.

Bruce M
07-03-2011, 15:11
If the woman is in immediate danger, how about a restraining order for a near term remedy???

.


While I agree a restraining order is an absolute necessity in this case, I also think restraining orders are a little bit like gun control. Gun Control presumes that the 25 years to life a guy faces for armed robbery is not gonna deter him but that big one year for a firearms violation will be the fear that tips the scales. Last time I looked in some places rape is actually a capital crime or a life felony, but in this case the fear of 180 days for violating a restraining order will put the fear of God in him?

WiskyT
07-03-2011, 15:24
While I agree a restraining order is an absolute necessity in this case, I also think restraining orders are a little bit like gun control. Gun Control presumes that the 25 years to life a guy faces for armed robbery is not gonna deter him but that big one year for a firearms violation will be the fear that tips the scales. Last time I looked in some places rape is actually a capital crime or a life felony, but in this case the fear of 180 days for violating a restraining order will put the fear of God in him?

They do clear up the whole probable cause issue though. Many times the guy does just crawl through a window and hurt her. Many times he calls her at work and screws with her etc. If he even has his sister send her a birthday card, he gets popped for contempt. They are court orders and judges take it personally when people violate their orders.

.45Super-Man
07-03-2011, 15:36
First off, you need to take into consideration that if this SOB comes at her it's going to happen at close range and she most likely wouldnt have the time to empty a magazine into him nor reload, now would she?? So bearing this in mind, why insist on an auto???? Secondly, do you really want to add malfunction clearance drills to the equation, when time is a BIG factor right now? Lots of things could happen here, but if you imagine her firing a volume of rounds at basically contact distance and then reloading at speed....think again. My advice leans STRONGLY in favor of a 357mag with a barrel of 4 inches or less. You can train her with light 38 loads and load it for defense with Federal 125gr SJHP magnums. All you need to tell her is that it's loaded with the best manstoppers that you can squeeze into a handgun. If something does in fact happen, her adrenalin levels will be so high she wont notice the added recoil or muzzle blast(it happens). As far as a restraining order.....if all of her screaming and resisting him didnt prevent a violent beating and rape, does anyone actually think a piece of paper will??? If this woman was a good friend or relative, I'd relieve her of the burden of having to sit and wait for him to do it again. As soon as this guy got out of county and was ALONE, the problem would be solved.

Ruggles
07-03-2011, 15:36
I vote .38 Special, small or medium frame gun, any make with a 2"-4" barrel. The 158gr SWHP is as potent a self defense round as you are going to find IMO. It is a extremely real world proven round that is a great balance of performance and shoot ability.

brausso
07-03-2011, 15:42
I see no reason why she can't learn on a semi-auto. I did and I'm sure many of the posters here did. I don't like the idea of a revolver for her strictly because of the capacity limit. I don't know her demeanor and I don't know her learning ability to accurately shoot a firearm. God forbid if she has to use it, if she hasn't had a enough range time, she may just point and shoot. I think capacity is very important in this case.

If I was going to arm a female in her circumstance is would be a compact/sub compact 9mm. My first vote would be a Ruger SR9c. 18 rounds of 9mm in a small package. Buds has them for $398 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=62288

duper85
07-03-2011, 15:49
I have the Kel Tec pf9. Its a single stack 9mm.Nice and lite, and about $100 less than the lc9. It has been a great gun, not a single failure and I have about 400 rounds through it.

cloudbuster
07-03-2011, 16:05
Tell her that when (NOT if) he shows up again, it will not be for casual conversation.

Tell her to shoot him!

TGG

Good Lord, don't listen to this advice. Sounds like a great way to provoke an unjustified shooting and land the girl in jail.

Willieboy
07-03-2011, 16:20
While I agree a restraining order is an absolute necessity in this case, I also think restraining orders are a little bit like gun control. Gun Control presumes that the 25 years to life a guy faces for armed robbery is not gonna deter him but that big one year for a firearms violation will be the fear that tips the scales. Last time I looked in some places rape is actually a capital crime or a life felony, but in this case the fear of 180 days for violating a restraining order will put the fear of God in him?

If worse came to worse, and she did end up having to defend herself by shooting this guy, a restraining might show she'd done what she could to avoid a violent outcome.

american lockpicker
07-03-2011, 16:41
Get a Armscor 38 and some Federal hollowpoints.

Bruce M
07-03-2011, 16:45
They do clear up the whole probable cause issue though. ...

If worse came to worse, and she did end up having to defend herself by shooting this guy, a restraining might show she'd done what she could to avoid a violent outcome.

I agree completely that a restraining order in this case (and in most DV cases) is critical procedurally. A restraining order makes an arrest decision far easier and goes a long way to getting someone into jail. I just don't want someone to think it offers much real protection. If I had a dollar for every time multiple officers at different calls told the same "victim" to get a restraining order and she didn't, and a dollar for every time a guy violated a restraining order, I would be posting this while holding a drink with an umbrella in it from a medium sized island in the South Pacific named Bruce.

mad.gunsmith
07-03-2011, 19:05
Set up a fundraiser so she can get a quality gun <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
G26 is the better choice <o:p></o:p>
The <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>LCP</st1:stockticker> is also a good quality gun my wife carries one everyday and I do too next to my G26 <o:p></o:p>

The_Gun_Guru
07-03-2011, 20:04
Avoid snubnose .38s!

Way too much recoil and not very accurate.


TGG

pennlineman
07-03-2011, 20:20
Avoid snubnose .38s!

Way too much recoil and not very accurate.


TGG

I think not. My wife has a Lady Smith model 36 and Glock 26. I just asked her if she thought it kicked too much and she laughed. I asked which one she liked better, she said the 36. I asked her which one she thought was easiest to operate. She said the 36, that's why she carries it while the Glock sits in the safe. So it boils down to the indivdual shooter.

As for snub nose accuracy........

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt250/pennlineman/2011/DSC000532.jpg

All double action at 7 yds, two different 357's using 357's not 38's on the same target.

WiskyT
07-03-2011, 22:01
I agree completely that a restraining order in this case (and in most DV cases) is critical procedurally. A restraining order makes an arrest decision far easier and goes a long way to getting someone into jail. I just don't want someone to think it offers much real protection. If I had a dollar for every time multiple officers at different calls told the same "victim" to get a restraining order and she didn't, and a dollar for every time a guy violated a restraining order, I would be posting this while holding a drink with an umbrella in it from a medium sized island in the South Pacific named Bruce.

Yeah, retraining orders obviously aren't some kind of magical force field. BUT, I've locked guys up for the slightest violation because I didn't have a choice. Victim shows up at HQ with a copy of the order and says her ex called her office. She gives a statement, warrant is issued, and dude is locked up for weeks while the judge let's him get his mind right. Not about harrassing the victim, the judge doesn't care, but ****bird has to get his mind right about not violating a judicial order or he goes in the box.

Usually the victim has had the dummy moved back in with her and not vacated the order. Then when she gets mad at him (he didn't give her any money) she calls up and violates him. Then you're hooking up some guy and he's like "man, you know how they is, she jus mad thas all".:rofl:

NHmike
07-03-2011, 22:08
Don't get a semi-automatic for someone who doesn't know anything about guns. Get a revolver.

this....

AA#5
07-03-2011, 22:21
Ask her to show you a copy of her final restraining order. If she doesn't have one of those, she hasn't been serious about keeping him away from her.

Another :goodpost:

tremor64
07-03-2011, 23:40
that would be a Ruger SP101 - not cheap but perfect weapon for someone unfamiliar with firearms - full range of ammo from .38 to .357 and in between too

GuinnessSynd
07-04-2011, 00:19
check with your local shops i know in charlotte alot of shops offer free classes and big discounts for people in her situation... i think the only thing that they ask is proof of a restraining order or something like that...but it might be worth looking at

Aceman
07-04-2011, 10:33
* decide if you really want to get involved - see Whiskey-T posts
* dot the i's, cross t's: counseling, restraining order, pressed charges, new phones, dog, lghts, alarm, locks, move etc....
* commitment to time and $ to practice
* develop a PLAN (or plans)
* pick the gun that fits the hand shoots straight. Don't worry about type as long as it's reliable. SG/Semi/Revolver - they all work.

Still - I am amazed at the amount of "just get .38 revolver and shoot him" advice. Way to be thorough and considerate of all the issues involved.

dwalker84
07-04-2011, 12:33
So what I'm getting from some of the posters here is, "She is too stupid, too beaten, too slow, and inexperienced to fight back. And also - woman don't like violence so therefor she will stand there like a deer-in-headlights while she is brutally beaten to death" Wow.

I would have expected different responses from you guys.

Some of you actually sound like anti's.

What would YOU do if it was your daughter or baby sister - you can't be with her every second. Do you tell her "You're too stupid to actually fight back or have a firearm. Here, heres some mace - I hope you fair well against a 300lb nutcase, call me and let me know how it turns out."

Shes working on the restraining order, but as the poster said above - he has already broken into her house, beat her, raped her, and told her he was going to kill her. All of those things were against the law, what the hell is a restraining order going to do, other than making her SD case alittle more clear to the court.

So what do you say to the 1000's of self defense cases where a woman or a grandmother defends themself with a handgun with absolutely NO TRAINING whatsoever. I think you give woman absolutely no credit - when their lives are in danger I would argue that they're just as capable or moreso - put their child in harms way and you have the most ferocious enemy you could imagine.

By the way, not sure where the whole "she needs to receive training" thing came from. I didn't mention that she would not be receiving training. We familiarized her with the firearm, safety rules, laws (Mas Ayoob), some videos, etc over a 7 hour period - next week we're taking her to one or two of the local classes at Diamondback police supply. No more or less then most of you have - not everyone can goto Frontsight, Magpul, or MAG40..

fnfalman
07-04-2011, 12:36
So what I'm getting from some of the posters here is, "She is too stupid, too beaten, too slow, and inexperienced to fight back. And also - woman don't like violence so therefor she will stand there like a deer-in-headlights while she is brutally beaten to death" Wow.

I would have expected different responses from you guys.

Some of you actually sound like anti's.

What would YOU do if it was your daughter or baby sister - you can't be with her every second. Do you tell her "You're too stupid to actually fight back or have a firearm. I hope you hair well against a 300lb nutcase, call me and let me know how it turns out."

Shes working on the restraining order, but as the poster said above - he has already broken into her house, beat her, raped her, and told her he was going to kill her. All of those things were against the law, what the hell is a restraining order going to do, really other than making her SD case alittle more clear to the court.

And you know for sure that she's a victim, right? You were there? You have seen everything that happened with your own eyes?

Was the poster there and witnessed everything? Or did he hear from his fiancee?

rem2429
07-04-2011, 12:40
I say get a shotgun, 20 gauge with low recoil shells and some buckshot. You can pick up reliable, used 20 gauge Remingtons all day for $200 around me.

Do your part and field strip and clean it for her. Add a recoil paid and she is set.

300# or not. At in-home ranges even a partial miss will give him something to think about-a center mass hit and he will have bigger problems than deciding whether to rape or beat her.

The question isn't getting a tool...its the right tool for the job.
Big +1 or shall it be 00 here.

dwalker84
07-04-2011, 13:06
And you know for sure that she's a victim, right? You were there? You have seen everything that happened with your own eyes?

Was the poster there and witnessed everything? Or did he hear from his fiancee?

My fiance says that she does infact have a restraining order, I was not aware.

I was not there, nor did I see what happened with my own eyes. If I had it would be a much different outcome.
What I DID see with my own eyes is about 20+ enormous bruises all over her body and very nasty tissue damage. I also saw with my own eyes; a police report, and past violations and assaults. Oh, and his background check. This guy is the worst of the worst. Everyone at her work including my fiance saw the continual bruises, cuts, etc, before she kicked him out and got a restraining order. There have been over 5 violations to the order RECENTLY and nothing happens - he spends a few days in jail, and first day hes out he goes back to stalk her.

WiskyT
07-04-2011, 13:42
My fiance says that she does infact have a restraining order, I was not aware.

I was not there, nor did I see what happened with my own eyes. If I had it would be a much different outcome.
What I DID see with my own eyes is about 20+ enormous bruises all over her body and very nasty tissue damage. I also saw with my own eyes; a police report, and past violations and assaults. Oh, and his background check. This guy is the worst of the worst. Everyone at her work including my fiance saw the continual bruises, cuts, etc, before she kicked him out and got a restraining order. There have been over 5 violations to the order RECENTLY and nothing happens - he spends a few days in jail, and first day hes out he goes back to stalk her.

Who bails him out on the assualts? Do they continually release him on his own recognizance? What happens when the assualt cases go to trial? Does she brow-bead the prosecutor to prosecute him? Has she testified in court at his assault trials? Either AZ has the single worst criminal justice system, or she is not following up on the work the system does. If she is doing her part and they are not following through with prosecutions, she needs to get a DV victims' group to put the fear of a battered women's group into the prosecutor. 99.9% of the time, the police do their job and lock the guy up, the prosecutor does his job and tries to bring the case to trial, and the victim doesn't agree to testify in court and the guy is back for a booty call, followed by a little mixed martial arts, and it all goes 'round and 'round.

tech4061
07-04-2011, 17:25
CDNN has pretty decent prices on various handguns. You can download their catalog here.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

I never bought a gun from them personally, but they seem to have a good reputation among most of the gun forums I frequent.

Aceman
07-04-2011, 18:12
My fiance says that she does infact have a restraining order, I was not aware.

I was not there, nor did I see what happened with my own eyes. If I had it would be a much different outcome.
What I DID see with my own eyes is about 20+ enormous bruises all over her body and very nasty tissue damage. I also saw with my own eyes; a police report, and past violations and assaults. Oh, and his background check. This guy is the worst of the worst. Everyone at her work including my fiance saw the continual bruises, cuts, etc, before she kicked him out and got a restraining order. There have been over 5 violations to the order RECENTLY and nothing happens - he spends a few days in jail, and first day hes out he goes back to stalk her.

Who bails him out on the assualts? Do they continually release him on his own recognizance? What happens when the assualt cases go to trial? Does she brow-bead the prosecutor to prosecute him? Has she testified in court at his assault trials? Either AZ has the single worst criminal justice system, or she is not following up on the work the system does. If she is doing her part and they are not following through with prosecutions, she needs to get a DV victims' group to put the fear of a battered women's group into the prosecutor. 99.9% of the time, the police do their job and lock the guy up, the prosecutor does his job and tries to bring the case to trial, and the victim doesn't agree to testify in court and the guy is back for a booty call, followed by a little mixed martial arts, and it all goes 'round and 'round.

And there we go. 5 violations of the restraining order? And he is on the street. SHE is allowing that to happen. Just my opinion.

And what if it were my daughter? It would be very different. She'd have a gun and know how it works. He'd have been in jail at the first slap. Well, it isn't my daughter - so that's not relevant. Maybe her pappy knows that she is a doosh magnet and he has thrown in the towel too.

Self defense with a firearm is about way more than which gun.

Fox
07-05-2011, 07:41
An M1 Carbine and a S&W Model 10 revolver would be good kit.

fuzzy03cls
07-05-2011, 07:59
Her ex is 300+lb'sGood luck with any handgun round with an enraged adrenaline filled 300lb guy bent on doing harm to you.

My suggestion from my experiences, is this guy needs to suffer in an "accident" or other "event" or the woman needs to move away & stay off the grid. Nothing else will end this if the courts are not doing the job.

Toorop
07-05-2011, 08:00
I would let her choose the gun. That is important. Read some of the articles at this site:

www.corneredcat.com

The author makes many good points as to why the person should choose her own gun. And I think arming her because she was raped is probably not a good idea as she has gone through a traumatic event. I would suggest counseling and therapy before handing someone a gun if they just suffered a traumatic event like a rape.

Bruce M
07-05-2011, 15:11
Oh, and his background check. This guy is the worst of the worst. Everyone at her work including my fiance saw the continual bruises, cuts, etc, before she kicked him out and got a restraining order. .


The guy apparently has an extensive criminal record and apparently was regularly violent with her... anyone ever see something like this before??

Kegs
07-05-2011, 15:56
If this was my fiance, I would give him a proper burial in a rural cemetery I know not far outside of Tucson.

That is the only way to handle demons like you have described.

A 12 gauge with buckshot.
Two sturdy shovels.
A tarp.
A truck.
Two special biochemical solutions I'm not going to offer on the board.

Man goes missing.
Body never found.

Permanent solution to problem.

My fiance says that she does infact have a restraining order, I was not aware.

I was not there, nor did I see what happened with my own eyes. If I had it would be a much different outcome.
What I DID see with my own eyes is about 20+ enormous bruises all over her body and very nasty tissue damage. I also saw with my own eyes; a police report, and past violations and assaults. Oh, and his background check. This guy is the worst of the worst. Everyone at her work including my fiance saw the continual bruises, cuts, etc, before she kicked him out and got a restraining order. There have been over 5 violations to the order RECENTLY and nothing happens - he spends a few days in jail, and first day hes out he goes back to stalk her.

Brad737
07-05-2011, 16:10
http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/tucson-arizona/guns

jp3975
07-05-2011, 16:33
How about a 20 gauge shotgun?

Let us know what she gets...and if anything else happens like he's sentenced or something.

SamRudolph
07-06-2011, 08:33
4", steel-frame .38 service revolver... or a 9mm semiauto a la Glock, M&P, XD, SigPro 2022 (That one you can pick up cheap for sure).

To the people advocating a revolver only... the OP's friend is A. motivated to learn, and B. probably has a driver's license, which means she has about eight times the mechanical aptitude necessary to learn how to use a semiauto, which, after all, is more complicated than a revolver, but less complicated than, say, a food processor.

yerscattergun
07-06-2011, 14:41
If this was my fiance, I would give him a proper burial in a rural cemetery I know not far outside of Tucson.

That is the only way to handle demons like you have described.

A 12 gauge with buckshot.
Two sturdy shovels.
A tarp.
A truck.
Two special biochemical solutions I'm not going to offer on the board.

Man goes missing.
Body never found.

Permanent solution to problem.


Also premeditated murder...:upeyes:

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/yerscattergun/InternetToughGuy.jpg

wnr700
07-06-2011, 21:11
My two cents from recently taking this journey with my gun reluctant spouse...

1) Take her to the range and rent/borrow every concievable .22
2) Find a qualified/neutral 3rd party instructor
3) LET HER CHOOSE the gun

Half dozen trips later and she had the confidence to step up to K and L frame revolvers. Accuracy is a work in progress.

If she were my friend, and in this situation... I'd buy the gun.

Filhar
07-07-2011, 07:25
Windicator .357 $250 or less 4" or 6", will go bang every time with no safety for a newbie. I'm carrying a Glock 17, but I suggest a revolver for all my friend who are new to guns. Unfortunately here in Wi. with conceal carry coming in, you can't keep a .380 in the store.

wjv
07-07-2011, 10:25
You should not be offended is a someone recommends a revolver for a new shooter, especially one who is female. . . . You can pack more power in a small revolver and they can be easier to use in awkward positions, such as one may be in while being attacked and terrified.

I agree
My carry gun is a S&W 442 DAO
My Home gun is Taurus 85CH DAO

The Taurus is fairly mild to shoot, even with +P ammo since it weighs something like 23 ounces. .

As for the trigger issue, Wolff sells trigger rebound springs fro a couple bucks that drop right in and take 4-5 lbs off of most triggers with zero impact on reliability.

Vance665
07-07-2011, 12:35
I have a Norinco model 213 in 9mm that my grandfather gave me. So far it's been 100% reliable and you can find them VERY cheap. The grip is tiny so it should be good for a woman, the only downside I can think of is the slide can be hard to pull back sometimes.

Triple7
07-07-2011, 12:42
I bought one of my Glocks for $300 out the door at a gun shop, cause the owner is friends with my father in law. Walk into a gun shop and tell the story....... I bet you might get the hook up on a used gun.

John Biltz
07-08-2011, 18:16
I've been seeing a lot of police trade in Glocks in Phoenix.

Comedian
07-08-2011, 19:35
When i first walked into a gun shop to learn about and buy a pistol, the guy working there, suggested i start with a revolver. Man am i glad i didn't take that advice. Learning how to properly use and maintain a semi auto was not difficult and also well worth it! Its not rocket science.

Wurger
02-01-2012, 00:38
makarov or a CZ82......small, cheap (about $200) and reliable.

MinnesnowtaWild
02-01-2012, 01:05
Are there any updates on this story?