Would you let a bad guy prone you out while CCWing? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Judge Roy Bean
07-06-2011, 07:40
I friend and I got into a rather heated debate about this yesterday after watching the waffle house robbery. I know there have been threads about it and this particular issue was mentioned in one of those threads.

In a situation where you have a liscenced conceal carry firearm on your person:
Would you allow a bad guy to prone you out in order to relinquish your wallet?

My buddy and I, both liscenced to conceal carry, couldn't come to agreement on it.

I have trouble with this as I carry at the 4:30-5 o clock position (right above my wallet).

GeorgiaRedfish
07-06-2011, 07:41
NO I would not let a BG prone me out. I do not want to be in one of the most vulnerable positions out there.

barstoolguru
07-06-2011, 09:29
Why do you carry if all your going to do is lay there like the rest of the people getting robbed…………… A coward dies a thousand deaths and a hero but one

Triple7
07-06-2011, 09:33
If he is in a close range and weapon pointed at me, I'm doing what I'm told until I have an opportunity. Most likely though I would pull my wallet out and lay it in front of me, so that the BG isn't filling around for mine.

LSUAdman
07-06-2011, 09:39
If he is in a close range and weapon pointed at me, I'm doing what I'm told until I have an opportunity. Most likely though I would pull my wallet out and lay it in front of me, so that the BG isn't filling around for mine.


This. In all due honesty, I think it all has to do with how quick it happens and threat level. If you think you can eliminate the threat without harm to others or yourself, take it. If it's questionable, well... there isnt anyone else there to save you or the others. Make the call and live with it.

HarleyGuy
07-06-2011, 09:44
Just my $ .02 here.

Once you allow yourself to be "compromised" (as in the bad guy has the drop on you) you basically have two options and neither are very promising.

If you take no action you are at the mercy of the bad guy.

If you decide to take action (as in fighting with him or attempting to draw your weapon) this could very well be the last decision that you will ever make, so be prepared.

THis is a decison that the individual must make for themselves and even trained, capable law enforcement officers have been killed or maimed in these situations.

Action beats re-action every time.
It's doubtful that you would be able to draw your weapon and fire at the BG before he shoots you, so in the best case scenario, you and the BG woud be, as they say in the westerns "swapping lead"!

If I was in this dire situation and decided to resist, I'd be preparing to move as fast as my feet could carry me, while unholstering my gun.
Distance and cover woud be the two best friends to have at this time (after prayer of course).

Chaos88
07-06-2011, 09:46
Hell no. Your gonna chance giving him yet another fire arm while you are belly down looking at his Jordans? Better question is how did he get the jump on you? Back facing the door? First seat inside the door? Absolutely 0 situational awareness? Nobody will ever get the jump me at a restaurant unless I am majorly outgunned he's going to pay for the $ in my wallet with a trip to the Hospital/morgue.

eracer
07-06-2011, 09:49
It's an odds game. If the odds are in my favor, I will not allow it.

If the odds are clearly against me, I will have to consider whether I believe he wants to rob me, or kill me. If all signs point to a simple robbery (as they did in the Waffle House incident) then I will give up my wallet.

If the odds are clearly against me and it looks like a 'fight or be killed' situation, then I will fight.

Even odds, and a simple robbery, I will give up the wallet. Even odds and a sense that the bad guy will shoot anyway, then we go.

mikegun
07-06-2011, 17:12
my wallet is a gun so yes ill be happy to let the stick up guy have it as well as all contants...

James Dean
07-06-2011, 18:14
Its a hard question to answer until I'm in that situation. If a BG has his gun to my head I'm doing nothing.

talon
07-06-2011, 18:19
"Action beats re-action every time", is a very misleading statement. You really need to look at the OODA loops of both the BG and the GG at a paticular moment of time. I react to a threat the BG reacts to my draw etc. etc.


Just my $ .02 here.

Once you allow yourself to be "compromised" (as in the bad guy has the drop on you) you basically have two options and neither are very promising.

If you take no action you are at the mercy of the bad guy.

If you decide to take action (as in fighting with him or attempting to draw your weapon) this could very well be the last decision that you will ever make, so be prepared.

THis is a decison that the individual must make for themselves and even trained, capable law enforcement officers have been killed or maimed in these situations.

Action beats re-action every time.
It's doubtful that you would be able to draw your weapon and fire at the BG before he shoots you, so in the best case scenario, you and the BG woud be, as they say in the westerns "swapping lead"!

If I was in this dire situation and decided to resist, I'd be preparing to move as fast as my feet could carry me, while unholstering my gun.
Distance and cover woud be the two best friends to have at this time (after prayer of course).

redbaron007
07-06-2011, 18:19
Too many variables to assume....however, I hope I can do what I say...constantly evaluating, looking for the best opportunity and taking advantage of it.

That's it.


:wavey:

red

cowboy1964
07-06-2011, 19:10
If you are in fear of serious bodily injury or death, shooting would be justified. That's the way the law reads here in Ohio.

FatPants
07-06-2011, 20:22
Watching the Waffle House video, I cant find a time in the video where engaging one of the bad guys with my pistol wouldnt have resulted in the injury or death of one or more people in the restaurant, other than if the BG's were engaged as they entered the door.

Situations like that do make me want more than 10 rounds in my G26...

Heres the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnCreOhzEcI

Merkavaboy
07-06-2011, 21:47
It depends on the situation. But in general, NO. In many locations, being "proned out" or being shuttled into a back room is a prelude to an execution.

AaronZR2
07-06-2011, 22:30
Is it just me or does the one guy have a Hi-Point carbine?

rvrctyrngr
07-06-2011, 23:13
No way, not ever.

RetailNinjitsu
07-06-2011, 23:32
Way to many variables to make that call.

Number of suspects? Visibly armed? Divided attention? Perceived intentions? Your mode of carry? Your ACTUAL skill level (not imagined)? Location? Bystanders?

Judge Roy Bean
07-07-2011, 04:37
Interesting responses you guys. I know it would depend on each and every circumstance when it happens.

For me, there is more of the issue of. "Do I have a responsibility as a CCW'er to prevent a bad guy from obtaining my firearm?"

Ultimately, I don't know how I would react either, as I have not been in this type of situation.

JuneyBooney
07-07-2011, 04:43
No, never.

snappy
07-07-2011, 07:05
No, never. If it's going to go down it's going down while I'm on my feet and that's whether I'm carrying or not, I don't care. If I get shot or killed it won't be from staring at some cold tile on a floor somewhere.

happyguy
07-07-2011, 07:42
I friend and I got into a rather heated debate about this yesterday after watching the waffle house robbery. I know there have been threads about it and this particular issue was mentioned in one of those threads.

In a situation where you have a liscenced conceal carry firearm on your person:
Would you allow a bad guy to prone you out in order to relinquish your wallet?

My buddy and I, both liscenced to conceal carry, couldn't come to agreement on it.

I have trouble with this as I carry at the 4:30-5 o clock position (right above my wallet).

Nope, not that I'm willing to get into a gunfight over my wallet, but..

I will also not allow myself to be patted down, I won't be herded back into the walk-in refrigerator, and I won't kneel with my back to the POS.

I'm no hero and I will go along (i.e. blend in) when I can, but I will not allow myself or someone I love to be helplessly executed.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

chivvalry
07-07-2011, 08:52
Excerpted from an excellent post by "Guantes"

Drawing Against The Drop involves five specific and unique elements

1. There is the decision that you will execute a draw against the drop
The actual decision making process I'll leave up to you

2. There is a verbalization to act as a distraction to the aggressor and/or a que to make your move

3. There is a parry to get the aggressors weapon off line

4. There is a blading of your body to help get it off line from the aggressor's gun in case your parry is not completely
successful

5. There is the quick and efficient access of your weapon and discharge of rounds
Anything that interferes with this works against you, be it clothing, holster, type of draw, weapon platform or
anything else

In detail, they are as follows:

The decision process, as I said, I will leave to your own means

Once you have made the decision you need a distraction and a que.
I use a pleading statement like, "Please don't kill me". One word in that sentence is my que. When I hit that word I go.
There are several reasons for this.
One, it gives me a specific go signal for nearly any situation.
Two, the pleading re-enforces the aggressor's feeling of control.
Three, Talking is a distraction and most people instinctively listen for the completion of a thought or sentence, whether
intentionally or not, so a good time to attack is while they are focused on the completion of the thought.

The following three elements, the parry, the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously, during the verbalization.
If the blading follows the parry it might be too late
If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
They must all occur or at least begin simultaneously

In the parry, I prefer a move from my left to right and down with my off hand. There are several reasons for this.

One, if the aggressor is right handed, which is most likely, it puts me to the outside, away from the aggressors off hand.

Second, I prefer to blade my off side forward so my left to right parry is moving the aggressor's gun in the opposite direction of which my body is moving.

Third, most armed ccw people, including me, are right handed. This means that they usually keep their S-O (Significant Other) on their left or off side so as to not interfere with their weapons access. Therefore, I do not want to get in the habit of parrying the aggressor's weapon in the direction my S-O would be.

Edmo01
07-07-2011, 09:57
I could easily imagine being deep in thought and enjoying the "scattered, smothered, and covered" hash browns and not seeing these creeps enter the door. We all try to be vigilant, but as shown in the video things change quickly.

Here are some questions we must all ask ourselves if faced with a situation such as this while in public...

1) If the level of threat requires you to engage these bad guys, are you mentally ready to do so?

2) Do you feel your choice of carry caliber, available rounds, and your accuracy with your weapon are enough to stop these crooks quickly if the situation dictates?

3) Can you accurately make consistent center of mass hits on moving targets at "Waffle House distance" with your chosen carry weapon?

4) Do you have spare ammo on you and do you practice reloading from your carry location?

5) If you engage them how many innocents are going to be hit in the ensuing gun battle before you stop them?

6) Assume your carry weapon is a 5 shot J frame revolver or a 6 shot pistol in 380 ACP. With at least two of these bad guys being armed and all of them wearing layered clothing, will your choice of caliber or round count affect your decision to engage the threat?

Don't take my post as a condemnation of your carry weapon, caliber choice, or level of pistol shooting prowess. Those are your choices. However, the video shows how quick things change from a quiet meal to three bandits spread through the restaurant waving firearms. Your choice of weapon, caliber, and amount of practice may make the difference.

This would be a tough call on engagement. They look more like thieves and less like killers. However, if engaged I could easily see them spraying the place with bullets until they could get out the door. Since they are so spread out, depending on your location in the restaurant, it could be hard to engage them all quickly with clean, obstruction free shots. It would be very bad to miss a bad guy and hit an innocent. Unfortunately, this might be one of those times you might have to give over your wallet to avoid a needless shooting of innocent victims.

Edmo

B.Reid
07-07-2011, 10:53
NO :wow:

silvrevo
07-07-2011, 11:04
I like the chick that ducked under her cubical table,,, good move,,

Bad move going back up for your purse/wallet.

There was nothing to be done here. Only outcome if you made a move was getting others killed,, maybe everyone.

Wouldnt a menacne to socitey law be nice!

Glue by noon.

Round up all the gang bangers, and just get rid of them.

Why cant that happen?

RRTX11
07-07-2011, 12:45
Nobody can predict how something will going go down or how they would react. Vigilance, situational awareness, and thinking tactically at all times will ONLY reduce the percentages of you being caught off guard. IF BG's do not have an advantage, BG's are likely to not execute a crime. You do not see BG's rob a police station's petty cash drawer very often.

Golddog
07-07-2011, 13:25
Some ludicrous posturing in this thread. Pull your piece against three armed thugs and you could half the people in the place killed. That's worse than stupid - it's immoral to put everyone in jeopardy on the off-chance that you might take out one bad guy.

sciolist
07-07-2011, 14:03
It's easy to MMQB this kind of thing, but...

I would not be inclined to eat in a space like that.
If I did, it would be it would be in one of the rear seats, away from, and facing the door.
There was a window for escape before the perps entered - if you had been well positioned and keeping an eye on the door.
I generally scope out a rear exit before sitting down - at least an exit to a transitional space. Note that exiting requirements are dictated by building codes, so knowledge of codes gives some clues in terms of what to expect.
Take a minute to think things through before you choose a seat... or choose to leave. If you're going to a local/known establishment, think it through beforehand. Sure, stuff happens... but lots of things can be foreseen.
These perps look like they were at worst indifferent to killing patrons, certainly not on a killing spree, so just GTF out!
It's certainly true that things change when the perp's gun comes out, but even then does not mean I need to engage. If I can simply escape/evade, that it what I am going to do. Best way to win a gunfight is not to be there.

HarleyGuy
07-07-2011, 14:27
If there's somene here who would actually challenged THREE armed BG's (one with a long gun) tell me where you eat and I'll be sure to avoid that restaurant forever.

I didn't see anyone get shot in that video, however, without a doubt someone (perhaps more) would have been shot or killed if anyone had resisted the BG's.

How would you like to be in that situation (unarmed) and have someone start shooting?

With ONLY three BG's, if you're proficient with a handgun you'd only need three rounds to take them all out!

Being robbed and still alive beats the alternative all to h***!

Ain't no shame in livin' to fight another day:cool:

HKLovingIT
07-07-2011, 17:20
Dunno. Depends on the entire context and what's going on. I'm not fast enough to outdraw a drawn gun pointed at me. Not inclined to kick off a fire fight in a crowded public place if it's a standard rob and go, or anytime for that matter, too much opportunity for dumb to happen. :dunno:AIWB starts looking like a better option in some of these situations.

I'd just hazard a guess that you would have higher odds of getting shot during a street robbery where you are the only victim versus being a victim of a mass shooting during a botched robbery at the Waffle House. Would pulling your weapon inadvertently turn this from a run of the mill armed robbery to a botched robbery / mass shooting? Dunno.

Herded to the rear freezer, secondary location - all bets off. That's almost guaranteed they are going to start murdering people.

Let's see what Vinny has to say:

http://www.youtube.com/user/VinnyS914#p/u/71/N9he1cpp4pw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSFcMSjakrk

beatcop
07-07-2011, 18:55
Given the exact video of the guys barging into the waffle house:

-I would hope to spot them in the vestibule and react from there. I think you'd stand a very strong chance of having them retreat if they were caught in a choke point w/a good volume of fire.

-I would be unlikely to initiate if I had a low cap mouse gun (lcp, snub, p380/p32, etc)...bad idea against a guy w/carbine plus 2 more BG's

-If you were on the inside of a booth, you'd be stuck...sort of....and w/back to the door wouldn't have much choice when a gun is pressed to your back.

-prob would get wallet out w/o ahead of time...if possible and avoid any frisking/groping/oops.

There were times when the guys were distracted, but this would be bad...too many guys, long gun, I have to draw, etc. Like I said, best scenario would be engaging w/hicap into the vestibule.

It "appears" they were in it for the money, so to speak. If you did sit tight or submit and subsequently observed people being shaken down for cash / cash register opened and no shots fired, my inclination would be to hold on until some "clue" came up of an intent to kill the customers or me.

ps, I don't fit into the demographic there....likely I would be zoned in on off the bat...w/m, short hair, cop look, too much eye contact.

If you search the old MTPD threads, we beat this stuff pretty hard...might be worth a read.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1228435

Judge Roy Bean
07-08-2011, 05:02
It's easy to MMQB this kind of thing, but...

I would not be inclined to eat in a space like that.
If I did, it would be it would be in one of the rear seats, away from, and facing the door.
There was a window for escape before the perps entered - if you had been well positioned and keeping an eye on the door.
I generally scope out a rear exit before sitting down - at least an exit to a transitional space. Note that exiting requirements are dictated by building codes, so knowledge of codes gives some clues in terms of what to expect.
Take a minute to think things through before you choose a seat... or choose to leave. If you're going to a local/known establishment, think it through beforehand. Sure, stuff happens... but lots of things can be foreseen.
These perps look like they were at worst indifferent to killing patrons, certainly not on a killing spree, so just GTF out!
It's certainly true that things change when the perp's gun comes out, but even then does not mean I need to engage. If I can simply escape/evade, that it what I am going to do. Best way to win a gunfight is not to be there.


My only problem with your post sir...is that you do not enjoy waffles. :supergrin:

happyguy
07-08-2011, 06:47
Some ludicrous posturing in this thread. Pull your piece against three armed thugs and you could half the people in the place killed. That's worse than stupid - it's immoral to put everyone in jeopardy on the off-chance that you might take out one bad guy.

Everyone has there own concept of morality.

I consider it immoral for a grown man or woman not to take responsibility for their own safety. So in my concept of morality, all those people who have failed to accept responsibility for their own lives have put me at risk.

If they are so concerned about their lives they need to arm themselves.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

RustyDaleShackleford
07-08-2011, 20:52
If you're spread out on the floor for a BG, they could find and take your weapon very easily. And you'd be in the best position for them, because you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

There's a reason the cops do it.

I'd say as soon as they threaten you with a weapon, you're good to go--as in justified. No way would I let a BG prone me out.

beatcop
07-08-2011, 21:22
If you're spread out on the floor for a BG, they could find and take your weapon very easily. And you'd be in the best position for them, because you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

There's a reason the cops do it.

I'd say as soon as they threaten you with a weapon, you're good to go--as in justified. No way would I let a BG prone me out.

In the case of the waffle house.....that's the point, they are inside threatening, 3 of them w/ a carbine in the mix. Are you really going to try to take on 3 guys threatening you w/a weapon? I can see if they're distracted, but otherwise it could be very bad....3 vs 1. Not good.

-do you feel confident in your ability
-do you think you are getting a good read on their "intent" (rob vs kill)
-is there a real opportunity to intiate fire w/o being a kamikazi?
-do you have cover, free movement, body armor?

poodleplumber
07-09-2011, 21:02
The general question of, "would I let a (singular) bad guy prone me out?" is different that the question of whether I would comply with three armed men who had the drop on me.

Being proned out is a very disadvantageous position to be in, and I would certainly be looking for an opportunity to take control of the situation. But opportunities to resist with a good chance of success may be hard to come by if you are one person confronting three. If my instincts say my best chance of survival is to comply, I will. If they tell me I am about to be executed, I will take my best shot; even if the odds aren't great, they are better than the chance of survival from a shot to the back of the head. My goal is survival, not apprehension or elimination of criminals.

Scott3670
07-09-2011, 21:11
Under all circumstances, I will never let the bad guy(s) get the drop on me. I try to never put myself in a position where I am vulnerable, and unless the law is explicit about no carry (police station, court house, etc. ) I am always carrying. I'm not a pyscho gun-loving Rambo-wannabee - rather I am a safety-minded citizen who exercises his right to protect himself and his family. I'm not the best shot nor the best-trained but I am competent and hopefully will be able to address any emergency that arises.

FlyboyLDB
07-09-2011, 21:42
Hell no. Your gonna chance giving him yet another fire arm while you are belly down looking at his Jordans? Better question is how did he get the jump on you? Back facing the door? First seat inside the door? Absolutely 0 situational awareness? Nobody will ever get the jump me at a restaurant unless I am majorly outgunned he's going to pay for the $ in my wallet with a trip to the Hospital/morgue.

Unless the perp decides to get seated - and now he is behind you and not in front. I never worry where I am seated - ever. We cannot control when a BG will make their move - as soon as they come in, scoping out a little while, after beaing seated. And what about side doors and rear doors - perps have been known to utilize these. To each their own, but I take whatever seats are available.

And for the OP, each event would be very difficult to predict. A ton of factors come into play. One is the perception of the perp - is he grabbing cash and leaving, does it appear he might not want witnesses, how am I carrying, how many people will get hurt if I draw, how many if I don't draw - all this and more would have to be decided upon in a fraction of a second. Main objective of any such event for me is for my loved ones, friends and myself to escape harms way. If I can help others and it will not put my family or friends in harms way, then I will - otherwise, people are on their own.

It is good to play these scenerios out because it will help one prioritize one's objectives. Which to me should be protect yourself, family and friends - even if you have to leave others behind. Bringing down the BG is not tops on my priorities - that is for LE - saving my loved ones\friends - by any means possible.

striperbisher
07-10-2011, 02:34
In the waffle house video there are at least two if not three bad guys robbing the store. If I was somehow tossed on the ground like the man was, I do not think I would have tried to draw and fight back. To many lives at stake and I do not have enough firepower and I am a damn good shot but I do not think I could make three kill shots in less than a second and this means many innocent bystanders would be hurt or killed. I think the man did the right thing and laid on the floor and I would have given up my wallet and followed the attackers directions until something changed or my odds got better. Sometimes being a silent witness and not an active shooter is the best thing to do. Take a look at the video of the robbing and the people saying hell no, I would have shot the dude may change your mind. I am pasting the link for people to view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnCreOhzEcI

striperbisher
07-10-2011, 02:40
There is a follow up video on this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9DBxPdCgE&NR=1...After the BG left the waffle house, a victim left the store and grabbed his handgun out of his vehicle and shot at the vehicle approximately 30 times and he hit the SUV while it was driving away. He waited for the right time to respond.

striperbisher
07-10-2011, 02:41
Sorry. here is the link of the Good guy chasing the bad guys after they left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9DBxPdCgE&NR=1

blueroot
07-10-2011, 08:22
He waited for the right time to respond.

When he was no longer in fear for his life was the right time for him to kill someone (legally speaking)?

Sam Spade
07-10-2011, 09:34
Lotsa people determined to defy the felon pointing a gun at them, some even planning on defying multiple felons.

I wonder what percentage of those have training to back that plan. Training that is relevant, realistic and recent.

beatcop
07-10-2011, 11:54
Lotsa people determined to defy the felon pointing a gun at them, some even planning on defying multiple felons.

I wonder what percentage of those have training to back that plan. Training that is relevant, realistic and recent.

Stop talking crazy...:whistling:

Where's MTPD? We need some new material.


ps, note to self...do not shoot crooks driving away when un-sworn, especially if no one was injured.

Guy claims he shot 5 times while running and 10 stopped....will be interesting to see how many holes the vehicle has in it. He was trying to get his $600 back.

Dizzll
07-13-2011, 20:36
Interesting, I typically carry at 430 and am right-handed. I specifically moved my wallet to my left pocket now that I carry. That allows me to decide what to do. If I'm gonna let him take my wallet I'll just grab it or stick my left cheek in his direction and let him take it. However, being right-handed he likely wouldn't question me reaching for my gun, and assume I was grabbing my wallet. The 3rd option is to grab wallet and toss it with left-hand while drawing with right hand, thereby using it as a distraction

striperbisher
07-13-2011, 21:48
When he was no longer in fear for his life was the right time for him to kill someone (legally speaking)?

Did I say right time to kill? No, read the post. Stop the threat. Legally speaking?

Texcowboy
07-13-2011, 22:03
Nope, not that I'm willing to get into a gunfight over my wallet, but..

I will also not allow myself to be patted down, I won't be herded back into the walk-in refrigerator, and I won't kneel with my back to the POS.

I'm no hero and I will go along (i.e. blend in) when I can, but I will not allow myself or someone I love to be helplessly executed.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

+1 I always sit toward the back facing the door/doors and I am always armed and consider myself aware of my surroundings. My wife's sister asked her once, "dont you feel odd with him carrying a gun all the time"? My wife's answer was "No, i feel safe".

FireForged
07-14-2011, 16:48
I would fake a heart-attack and draw my weapon. maybe

Glockdude1
07-14-2011, 16:51
No.

:cool:

jdavionic
07-14-2011, 16:58
no (that was my reply, but it was too short so I added this parenthetical crap)

blueroot
07-14-2011, 18:54
Did I say right time to kill? No, read the post. Stop the threat. Legally speaking?

True, you didn't say kill. But what then was he trying to do by unloading his weapon at them as they retreated? The threat was over which is not the right time to start shooting.

double.tap
07-14-2011, 20:42
you are forgetting still that in almost all castle doctrine states, deadly force is authorized not only to protect yourself or others from bodily harm, but to prevent property damage and theft as well. per the letter of the law, you are equally as justified using deadly force to protect your TV as you are your life (however some prosecutors do not agree...use your own judgement). correct me if im not recollecting right.

what do most people carry in wallets and purses? drivers licenses, credit cards, social security cards, police credentials, military ids, check books, library cards, handgun licenses, all things that can be used to steal your identity and cause you great financial harm. your address is probably written down in about 37 different places as well. whose to say they wont start hitting houses of their robbery victims the next night? just because they left waffle house doesnt mean the threat was over.

i do agree with you though, chasing an SUV down the street shooting at it because someone stole your wallet is not what i would suggest, but its not illegal (atleast in my state). quoted from texas's penal code i couldnt pull it up last night. important parts are bolded.

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Italia
07-15-2011, 22:14
Having worked in the restaurant business for 30 years I was trained to worry for your life when the person with the gun is NOT covering their face. I've also talked with many people who have been robbed in restaurants, and all of them have reacted in ways that none of them would have predicted, including not following the directions of the person with the gun pointed at you. My sister had a gun to her head and was told not to scream, and she screamed both times he said it. My manager kept looking at the robber going through a safe when she was told multiple times, "If you look at me again, I'll kill you." I've been in a lot of restaurants that have been robbed, and thank God no one was ever hurt.

ScottieG59
07-16-2011, 17:04
There was a time in my younger life when I often travelled into New York City. Of course, crime is a big thing in the rotten apple and decent people must remain helpless sheep. I would only carry the minimum I needed. At times, I also carried a special wallet for robberies. It had some cash and fake credit cards. The thought was that they wanted some cash which I rarely would have carried.

Today, I am prepared to fight if it is needed. I can never say what I would do if something happened. Things do not present themselves in nice scenarios that can be readily understood. To say what we would do assumes a greater amount of knowledge we would have. I do all the situational awareness things and I know things present themselves in surprising ways.

glockurai
07-16-2011, 17:11
Hell no. Your gonna chance giving him yet another fire arm while you are belly down looking at his Jordans? .

:rofl:

Thorazine
07-23-2011, 01:38
I would have tossed two of my CCW flashbangs and perhaps a CCW smoke grenade while doing a flying leap triple somersault over the counter firing a gun in each hand.

crsuribe
07-23-2011, 02:02
I always start shooting first then ask questions later when crap like this happens. So far it's worked for me.

boxer
07-23-2011, 09:32
I remember what Jeff Cooper used to write. You always fight. No, I am not laying down. If I take a bullet or two, does not mean I am going to die instantly. The moment someone draws on me, I draw and shoot.

wnr700
07-23-2011, 10:15
It's easy to MMQB this kind of thing, but...

I would not be inclined to eat in a space like that.
If I did, it would be it would be in one of the rear seats, away from, and facing the door.
There was a window for escape before the perps entered - if you had been well positioned and keeping an eye on the door.
I generally scope out a rear exit before sitting down - at least an exit to a transitional space. Note that exiting requirements are dictated by building codes, so knowledge of codes gives some clues in terms of what to expect.
Take a minute to think things through before you choose a seat... or choose to leave. If you're going to a local/known establishment, think it through beforehand. Sure, stuff happens... but lots of things can be foreseen.
These perps look like they were at worst indifferent to killing patrons, certainly not on a killing spree, so just GTF out!
It's certainly true that things change when the perp's gun comes out, but even then does not mean I need to engage. If I can simply escape/evade, that it what I am going to do. Best way to win a gunfight is not to be there.


Pretty much my thoughts exactly...

Makes me think more about an easily accessible BUG option. Carrying IWB at 2 o'clock, in a seated position it would be tough to have time to react and not give away your intentions.

USDefender
07-23-2011, 10:38
this. In all due honesty, i think it all has to do with how quick it happens and threat level. If you think you can eliminate the threat without harm to others or yourself, take it. If it's questionable, well... There isnt anyone else there to save you or the others. Make the call and live with it.


+1000

HANSOLLIG
07-23-2011, 17:34
Absolutely not

mlanush
07-23-2011, 17:34
I dont know if anyone noticed but the 3 guys came with guns drawn and the one that went to the cash reigster ened up putting the gun in his pocket and the other pistol holder did not have his gun out when they where leaving , only the carbine had his gun out by no means was it in the ready position, so someone like a undercover might have had the drop on them but a civilian that might have not trained well or often enough dont think it would be a good idea ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

coponpatrol
07-23-2011, 17:56
Happened to a friend of mine. A robbery, the BG wanted the keys to car and his wallet. he carried a .44 mag in a shoulder holster. He purposely dropped the keys to the ground. The BG told him to get on the ground and hand him the keys.

My buddy on the way down began to draw and at the same time turned on his back hitting the ground. Once his gun was out he said "mf, if I'm going to die so are you" The BG and my friend both fired at the same time. My friend was hit in the stomach (he's okay now), the BG lost his entire right arm at the shoulder but lived.