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Vic Hays
07-13-2011, 21:22
[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Ogreon
If I have this right...we have two persons instead of three. (I'll guess that the Holy Spirit is a force or attribute of God). And the exact details of how the two persons interact or join together, you aren't sure (except the Father came first and both Father and Son have authority over everything else).

Assuming I have this right, then I have a bit more information than I had before.

I was gonna have rgregoryb beat you up...but...I just can't bring myself to pony up cash to a Mr. Smiley Face button. [Quote]

Brasso was explaining his understanding of the Godhead. From a Biblical perspective he is partially correct. The three persons of the Godhead are not equal. This does not mean that they are not all three God, but that they each are distinct interconnected and yet God.

Instead of taking one text and making a case from it, how about including all scripture to discuss and learn from?

Bible quotes showing all three working together:

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Collosians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

achysklic
07-14-2011, 03:19
Trinity and it's concept is taken from paganism, it is never taught in the bible. The God family consist of God the Father, God the son. The Holy spirit is never mentioned as a person. It is however part of the Ftaher that is given to mankind as a gift to help them along their journey.

In john 17 Jesus explain how He and the Father are one. They are one in thought and action not personage. Jesus ask that all christians also be one with the Father and Him in this same way.

The Holy Spirit again is not mentioned as being part of the oneness of the God family. It is merely a essence of the Father.

eracer
07-14-2011, 03:45
Why then was the Greek Orthodox wedding I attended recently so heavily ritualized to the number three?

The priest explained it as adherence to the belief in the Trinity. Are you saying that the Trinity is not part of the scriptures that are so revered in Catholicism? They say "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost" during blessings. Surely this is biblical in nature.

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 08:50
Trinity and it's concept is taken from paganism, it is never taught in the bible. The God family consist of God the Father, God the son. The Holy spirit is never mentioned as a person. It is however part of the Ftaher that is given to mankind as a gift to help them along their journey.

In john 17 Jesus explain how He and the Father are one. They are one in thought and action not personage. Jesus ask that all christians also be one with the Father and Him in this same way.

The Holy Spirit again is not mentioned as being part of the oneness of the God family. It is merely a essence of the Father.

Remember this is Scripture only. You did a lot of explaining without Biblical support. This is how things get skewed. God does not always fit into our logical construction.

1. True, there is not the word "Trinity" used in the Bible.

2. The Holy Spirit is mentioned as a person many times in the Bible.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

3. The members of the Godhead are also mentioned working in concert as individuals.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 08:58
Why then was the Greek Orthodox wedding I attended recently so heavily ritualized to the number three?

The priest explained it as adherence to the belief in the Trinity. Are you saying that the Trinity is not part of the scriptures that are so revered in Catholicism? They say "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost" during blessings. Surely this is biblical in nature.

Being heavily ritualized is no guarantee that something is Biblical. There was a pagan religion of Sun worship that arose to state religion in the Roman Empire just before Jesus was born. During the time directly after the resurrection a number of non-Biblical rituals and beliefs were brought into Christianity. This is called syncretism. Sometimes it may be harmless and sometimes not. This is why there are so many different Churches. We now have the Bible in our own languages. It is time to study to find the Truth as it is in Jesus. The only safe standard is the Bible.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

NMG26
07-14-2011, 09:00
The Holy Spirit is Just a nickname for God.

AGAF
07-14-2011, 11:20
In a very crude, earthly (human) like description, I like to think of the trinity kind of like water. You have two hydrogen molecules bonded to one oxygen molecule and all three make up water. You can't have water without all three. And yet water is made up of three individual parts. God & Jesus are like the two hydrogen molecules in that they are of the same nature and the holy spirit is like the oxygen. Different from the hydrogen, but absolutely needed to form water.

Ok, sorry.....that wasn't very biblical, but an analogy that kind of makes sense to me.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit is a kind of "power" given to Christ's believers as a source of strength to help them live out the kind of Christ centered life that He has called us to. We cannot do this on our own strength. I believe the spirit also helps move us into spritual maturity.

Brasso
07-14-2011, 11:32
God, YHWH, is unseen. Invisible. He is everywhere and everything. He is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Him. He gives you that. Messiah is also of that same Spirit. He came forth from the Father and eventually took on flesh. Messiah is the visible image of YHWH. That part of Him that interacts with His creation. YHWH is the Father and Godhead. Messiah is the Son and redeemer. Messiah is our head. The FAther is Messiah's head.

There is only One God. Even Messiah acknowledges that YHWH is His God. But Messiah is alive, not dead, seated as our high priest and mediator. So we pray to Him also, acknowledging His postion as given by the Father, to the glory of the Father. He's been given all authority and inherited all things, even the name YHWH.

achysklic
07-14-2011, 11:37
Biblical Proof
1) The word “trinity” is not in the Bible.
2) The Holy Spirit was “poured out” on Pentecost (Acts 2:18)—and was “poured out” upon
Gentiles (Acts 10:45). A person is not “poured out.”
3) Acts 2:2: “And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like the rushing of a powerful
wind, and filled the whole house... ” A person doesn’t sound like a mighty wind, and cannot fill a house.
4) The Holy Spirit appeared as cloven tongues—something a person cannot do (Acts 2:3).
5) Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18, 20). If the Holy Spirit were a person,
that would make the Holy Spirit Christ’s Father!
6) The Holy Spirit is not a person; it is the power God uses to accomplish His work.
7) Sometimes Scripture personifies a thing or quality as if it were a person: “Wisdom cries outside;
she utters her voice in the streets.” (See Prov. 1:20-33.) Another example refers to
“understanding”: “Lift up your voice for understanding; if you seek her as silver, and search for her as
for hidden treasures…” (See Prov. 2:3-4.) The use of “she” and “her” does not make wisdom or understanding
a person. Nor can the use of “he” in the KJV, etc. make the Holy Spirit a person.
8) Christ said, “I and My Father are one” (John 10:30; 17:21-22). He never mentioned the Holy
Spirit as being one with Him and His Father.
9) “The Son of man … came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before
Him” (Dan. 7:13). Daniel, a loyal servant of God, spoke of only two members of the Godhead.
10) “The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand…’ ” (Psalm 110:1). David, a man after
God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), spoke of only two members of the Godhead.
11) In most of his letters Paul gave salutations from God the Father and Christ—but never included
the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were a person and a member of a triune Godhead, Paul would
have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit as well.
12) In three of Paul’s letters, God the Father and Christ are referred to as persons—but the Holy
Spirit is never referred to as such (Col. 1:3; I Thess. 1:1; Hebrews 1:1-2).
13) Matthew 28:19 reads: “Go … baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit.” The use of “Holy Spirit” here in no way makes it a person.
14) In John’s vision of the throne of God (Rev. 4-5), he saw only the Father and the Son. He did
not see a third person designated as “God, the Holy Spirit.”
15) Satan’s religions teach the doctrine of the trinity; God teaches the Family.
16) God is an open Family—not a closed, triangular trinity. Converted, begotten believers can
be born into the Family of God at the first resurrection.

achysklic
07-14-2011, 11:38
Historical Proof
1) The trinity teaching originated in the latter half of the second century—a hundred years after
the New Testament had been written and canonized.
2) The trinity doctrine was officially adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.
3) A 4th-century spurious addition was made to I John 5:7: “…in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one….” Peake’s Commentary says, “No respectable Greek
[manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally
the NT of Erasmus [and eventually the KJV]” (p. 1038). Numerous Bible commentaries agree; most
modern translations omit the passage.
I John 5:6-8 should read: “This is He Who came by water and blood—Jesus the Christ; not by
water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness because the Spirit is the truth.
For there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three
witness unto the one truth.”

ArtificialGrape
07-14-2011, 12:01
Historical Proof
1) The trinity teaching originated in the latter half of the second century—a hundred years after
the New Testament had been written and canonized.
2) The trinity doctrine was officially adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.
3) A 4th-century spurious addition was made to I John 5:7: “…in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one….” Peake’s Commentary says, “No respectable Greek
[manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally
the NT of Erasmus [and eventually the KJV]” (p. 1038). Numerous Bible commentaries agree; most
modern translations omit the passage.
I John 5:6-8 should read: “This is He Who came by water and blood—Jesus the Christ; not by
water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness because the Spirit is the truth.
For there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three
witness unto the one truth.”

Given how core a belief in the trinity is to Christians, it seems that your argument points to how human, corrupted and errant the Bible is.

eracer
07-14-2011, 12:11
Given how core a belief in the trinity is to Christians, it seems that your argument points to how human, corrupted and errant the Bible is.There are many things I've learned about the Bible recently that puzzle me:

Why is the concept of hell as a place of punishment not part of the original scriptures, if it is so fundamental to the idea of salvation?

How is it that the Synoptic Gospels are not the work of those for whom they are named?

How do people who hold the Bible to be the inviolate word of God reconcile the fact that it was written by men and altered much over its history?

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 12:20
There are many things I've learned about the Bible recently that puzzle me:

Why is the concept of hell as a place of punishment not part of the original scriptures, if it is so fundamental to the idea of salvation?

How is it that the Synoptic Gospels are not the work of those for whom they are named?

How do people who hold the Bible to be the inviolate word of God reconcile the fact that it was written by men and altered much over its history?

Well answer to question 1:
Because when torturing people and burning them at the stake didn't get people to kiss the cross, the threat of hellfire was a good alternative.

2: Because we have no idea who wrote them.

3: The Torah itself has not been altered.

AGAF
07-14-2011, 13:01
Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

Am I just asking for too much here......?

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 13:12
Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

Am I just asking for too much here......?

Whom are you addressing?

eracer
07-14-2011, 13:13
AGAF -

Sorry, but the original post said nothing about 'believers only.'

I agree that any discussion should be civil and respectful of other's beliefs. And I think that most folks in this forum act civilly.

Should the religious forum be off-limits to those of us who question the validity of current religious interpretations of such things as the nature of God, creation, evolution, etc.?

AGAF
07-14-2011, 13:14
Whom are you addressing?

Re-read the first sentence.......

AGAF
07-14-2011, 13:18
Should the religious forum be off-limits to those of us who question the validity of current religious interpretations of such things as the nature of God, creation, evolution, etc.?

Absolutely not. Read my post again.

If I start a thread that is clearly intended for discussion with other believers, and someone wants to hijack my thread and debate every single thing that is written by other believers, then I find that person to be terribly rude and less than civil.

I haven't been in this particular forum very long, but have already seen numberous examples of this very thing.

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 13:20
Well your first sentence could mean a lot of things. You say "non-Xtian" then you say "Non-believer" in either "G-d or chrst"

Well What is a "Believer" to you? I am a Believer in G-d. I am NOT a believer in the Nazarene. So Do you feel i have a right to be here because i fit half your criteria?
As ercaer said.. this thread didn't specify any group and it is in fact a public forum so if someone wants to get xtian only replies, they should post in a xtian only forum. no?

SPIN2010
07-14-2011, 13:22
Dr. J. Vernon McGee has a great booklet on this:

How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
While we may not be able to fully comprehend all the mysteries of the Trinity, we can at least stand on the fringe of this great truth and worship.

See the 44th book that can be downloaded on the page.

http://www.thruthebible.org/site/c.irLMKXPGLsF/b.4104243/k.B4BD/Booklet_Downloads.htm

www.ttb.org (http://www.ttb.org)

ArtificialGrape
07-14-2011, 13:27
Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

Am I just asking for too much here......?

The thread is regarding a Biblical discussion. Do you for some reason believe that only Christians are capable of a Biblical discussion? Must all Biblical scholars be Christians? Must all Islamic studies scholars be Muslim?

Many of the non-believers here are quite versed in the Bible, many of whom were raised Christians. If I can hold a discussion on The Lord of the Rings without believing that it is true, there is no reason that I cannot participate in a Bible discussion just because I do not believe that it is true.

My point to achysklic is valid, and if you've read enough here that you'll know that many of his views are unorthodox (heretical to today's orthodoxy), so somebody's view on the errancy/inerrancy of the Bible that they are quoting seems appropriate (to me) in a Biblical discussion.

If you're seeking a happy happy joy joy God cheerleading forum largely free of dissenters then I would recommend christianforums.net which requires acceptance of the Nicene Creed as a condition of participation in many forums.

-ArtificialGrape

AGAF
07-14-2011, 13:39
You say "non-Xtian" then you say "Non-believer" in either "G-d or chrst"

No, I said non-Christian, God, or Christ

You are correct in that this is indeed a public forum and I have no right to police this forum.

I do believe, however, that grown adults can subscribe to some level of decency and consideration for one another.

If I ever begin a thread and CLEARLY ask for Christian only responses, would those who frequent this forum show the proper respect and not try to disprove, argue, or otherwise invalidate every word posted by those Christians?

Again, is that asking for too much?

achysklic
07-14-2011, 13:48
Given how core a belief in the trinity is to Christians, it seems that your argument points to how human, corrupted and errant the Bible is.

This is true, humans have corrupted almost every translation of the bible to suit their own pagan beliefs.

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 14:15
No, I said non-Christian, God, or Christ

You are correct in that this is indeed a public forum and I have no right to police this forum.

I do believe, however, that grown adults can subscribe to some level of decency and consideration for one another.

If I ever begin a thread and CLEARLY ask for Christian only responses, would those who frequent this forum show the proper respect and not try to disprove, argue, or otherwise invalidate every word posted by those Christians?

Again, is that asking for too much?


OK then if christian asked for a thread and wanted christian responses only then again, he may want to visit a CHRISTIAN forum because this forum is public. People ask me questions about Judaism and you notice how many xtians want to chime in. Someone started a thread that deals with atheism and likewise. This is what happens when one has an open forum. Why shouldnt it be such. As a Jew, do i not have xtians constantly trying to "disprove, argue, or otherwise invalidate every word"
(using your words here) I gotta suck it up because they do in fact on a public forum have the right to voice their opinion.

AGAF
07-14-2011, 14:36
OK then if christian asked for a thread and wanted christian responses only then again, he may want to visit a CHRISTIAN forum because this forum is public. People ask me questions about Judaism and you notice how many xtians want to chime in. Someone started a thread that deals with atheism and likewise. This is what happens when one has an open forum. Why shouldnt it be such. As a Jew, do i not have xtians constantly trying to "disprove, argue, or otherwise invalidate every word"
(using your words here) I gotta suck it up because they do in fact on a public forum have the right to voice their opinion.

No, you are correct. This is a public forum and anyone certainly has the right to chime in at any time.

I believe there are other places that would be more appropriate to have the types of discussions that I am envisioning. I enjoy this site because I have like minded people to discuss one of my favorite hobbies (firearms) as well as folks who share experiences with concealed carry.

I also realize that limiting someones participation in a religious forum would be or could possibly limit their exposure to whatever "truth" they may be searching for. Afterall, I find it terribly interesting that someone who does not believe in God or Jesus would spend much time in a forum like this to begin with. Unless, of course, their motivation is to pull someone away from God or they just enjoy the debate. Maybe they want to find out about Allah, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Sikhism, Gnosticism, Babism, etc.

I would hate to limit ones exposure to the "truth". I firmly beleive that anyone who would deliberately come to a forum like this is searching for something. Whether they want to believe it or not.....

I would hate to hinder someone's pursuit of the "truth".

Carry on.......

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 14:59
I do understand your point though, we should try and keep things civil. The problem is if we start to exclude one group from a thread today, who do we exclude tomorrow?
Freedom of speech is sometimes one of those necessary evils.:supergrin:

AGAF
07-14-2011, 15:11
I do understand your point though, we should try and keep things civil. The problem is if we start to exclude one group from a thread today, who do we exclude tomorrow?
Freedom of speech is sometimes one of those necessary evils.:supergrin:

I absolutely respect your views and beliefs as a Jew and can do that without sharing the same exact beliefs. In fact, I would find it extremely fascinating to hear about a modern day Jew's beliefs in modern times. I would imagine that what has been taught and handed down to you through generation after generation would be pretty much the same as many of the Jewish writings outlined in the Bible. Do you read, write, and speak Hebrew? What is your favorite Hebrew word for God & why? I hope I didn't come across as exclusive and if I did, I apologize.

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 15:15
I absolutely respect your views and beliefs as a Jew and can do that without sharing the same exact beliefs. In fact, I would find it extremely fascinating to hear about a modern day Jew's beliefs in modern times. I would imagine that what has been taught and handed down to you through generation after generation would be pretty much the same as many of the Jewish writings outlined in the Bible. Do you read, write, and speak Hebrew? What is your favorite Hebrew word for God & why? I hope I didn't come across as exclusive and if I did, I apologize.

Never thought of what my "favorite" word for G-d was. :dunno: When not in prayer I refer to Him as HaShem ( the Name) during t'filah I call him "Adonai"

AGAF
07-14-2011, 15:34
My two favorite Hebrew words for God are El Chaiyai and El Yeshuati due to their profound personal meaning. I've even thought of having one tatoo'd on my shoulder in Hebrew. It would certainly be a good conversation starter!

FifthFreedom
07-14-2011, 15:38
My two favorite Hebrew words for God are El Chaiyai and El Yeshuati due to their profound personal meaning. I've even thought of having one tatoo'd on my shoulder in Hebrew. It would certainly be a good conversation starter!

May wanna reconsider tattooing the name of G-d on your body. We should be careful with G-d's name ;)

dbcooper
07-14-2011, 15:48
I was under the impression that Catholics view Jesus as "God made into man" , am I wrong on that. If not does that mean that Jesus was infact God walking the Earth? School me my Papist bretheren

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 16:06
11) In most of his letters Paul gave salutations from God the Father and Christ—but never included
the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were a person and a member of a triune Godhead, Paul would
have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit as well.


There are a lot of suppositions here.

What would Jesus say? The Holy Spirit would not speak of Himself? When He is come? He shall glorify me? Why didn't Jesus just say when the force of the Father is come the Father will glorify Me?

John16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 16:19
2) The trinity doctrine was officially adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.
3) A 4th-century spurious addition was made to I John 5:7: “…in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one….” [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]Peake’s Commentary says, “No respectable Greek
[manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally
the NT of Erasmus [and eventually the KJV]” (p. 1038). Numerous Bible commentaries agree; most
modern translations omit the passage.
I John 5:6-8 should read: “This is He Who came by water and blood—Jesus the Christ; not by
water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness because the Spirit is the truth.
For there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three[/LEFT]
witness unto the one truth.”


Just because something is adopted by organized religion does not mean it is true or false. Arian beliefs that Jesus was only a man or created being abounded. There were some changes made in a few places in the Bible. This does not make the doctrine false either. What it means is that people can get over zealous to defend their position. There are plenty of verses that mention the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself mentions both of the other persons.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 16:27
I was under the impression that Catholics view Jesus as "God made into man" , am I wrong on that. If not does that mean that Jesus was infact God walking the Earth? School me my Papist bretheren

Correct, perhaps the reason that people have the false impression that Jesus was created or came into existence after the Father is that He was born as a man or that He is the leader of the army of heaven. According to the Bible He pre-existed.

Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

MIcah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

achysklic
07-14-2011, 17:02
Vic excuse my short reply i am on my cell i will address the rest later. Question vic you quote john 1:1 where is the hily spirit mentioned there? looks like it is only 2from the beginning. Are u sayung the hs was a created after thought of the Father and the Word?

dogchild
07-14-2011, 17:19
[QUOTE=AGAF;17629988]Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

Am I just asking for too much here......?[/QUOT

I agree

rgregoryb
07-14-2011, 18:00
Trinity and it's concept is taken from paganism, it is never taught in the bible. The God family consist of God the Father, God the son. The Holy spirit is never mentioned as a person. It is however part of the Ftaher that is given to mankind as a gift to help them along their journey.

In john 17 Jesus explain how He and the Father are one. They are one in thought and action not personage. Jesus ask that all christians also be one with the Father and Him in this same way.

The Holy Spirit again is not mentioned as being part of the oneness of the God family. It is merely a essence of the Father.

You seriously crack me up................I nearly choked from the laughter :rofl::rofl:

Baptize in the name of who again?

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28.18b-20 )

achysklic
07-14-2011, 18:35
You seriously crack me up................I nearly choked from the laughter :rofl::rofl:

Baptize in the name of who again?

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28.18b-20 )

Greg befote laughing and acting a fool go back up a read what i posted. I already addressed your quote from a poor translation

ArtificialGrape
07-14-2011, 18:51
How about Tertullian cutting to the chase...
If you want me to believe him to be both the Father and Son, show me some other passages where it is declared, ‘The Lord said to himself, “I am my own Son, today have I begotten myself.” -- Tertullian, Against Praxeas

Brasso
07-14-2011, 19:50
So what is the Holy Spirit's name? I mean, how do you baptize someone in the name of the holy spirit, if the Bible never gives it a name?

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28.18b-20 )

or "....of the Holy Spirit."

Paul even met believers that had received John's baptism, but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This should correspond to the baptism by water. The Holy Spirit is a force. It is the rivers of living water. I don't believe it to be a person, other than the presence of YHWH Himself.

rgregoryb
07-14-2011, 19:51
Greg befote laughing and acting a fool go back up a read what i posted. I already addressed your quote from a poor translation

poor translation?

rgregoryb
07-14-2011, 20:05
So what is the Holy Spirit's name? I mean, how do you baptize someone in the name of the holy spirit, if the Bible never gives it a name?



or "....of the Holy Spirit."

Paul even met believers that had received John's baptism, but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This should correspond to the baptism by water. The Holy Spirit is a force. It is the rivers of living water. I don't believe it to be a person, other than the presence of YHWH Himself.

Spook?
Fred?
What's God's name? Howard be thy name
Was Jesus' name always Jesus? Or was He just called Logos b-4 the earthly ministry
I don't name my breakfast but it exists , although temporarily.

Didn't Jesus , or whatever you call him say that the HS would come and He (HS) would guide them to all truth?

Wasn't it Emil Brunner or Karl Barth that said it is the HS that makes us contemporaries with Christ.

Brasso
07-14-2011, 20:45
Spook?
Fred?
What's God's name? Howard be thy name
Was Jesus' name always Jesus? Or was He just called Logos b-4 the earthly ministry
I don't name my breakfast but it exists , although temporarily.


If you knew the Bible you know that God's name is YHWH.

Jesus was never His name. Ironically, that name is made up. A monk came up with that translation horror in the 15th century.

You're the one who posted that passage, which isn't in any original texts, about baptizing in the Holy Spirit's name. Surely you know what it is?

btw, Ruach in Hebrew, is feminine.

Brasso
07-14-2011, 20:48
I do understand your point though, we should try and keep things civil. The problem is if we start to exclude one group from a thread today, who do we exclude tomorrow?
Freedom of speech is sometimes one of those necessary evils.

Some people just shouldn't post here. Their skin is too thin. This is a religious board after all. The opinions expressed here run deep. Heated debates are going to happen. Hopefully they can remain here.

Nothing pisses me off more than someone running to a moderator.

"I'm telling mommy!" Grow up.

rgregoryb
07-14-2011, 21:06
If you knew the Bible you know that God's name is YHWH.

Jesus was never His name. Ironically, that name is made up. A monk came up with that translation horror in the 15th century.

You're the one who posted that passage, which isn't in any original texts, about baptizing in the Holy Spirit's name. Surely you know what it is?

Yahweh..................cool name if you use the vowels

the old tetragrammaton....

rgregoryb
07-14-2011, 21:09
How about "I Am"

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 21:59
Vic excuse my short reply i am on my cell i will address the rest later. Question vic you quote john 1:1 where is the hily spirit mentioned there? looks like it is only 2from the beginning. Are u sayung the hs was a created after thought of the Father and the Word?

Each person of the Godhead is not always mentioned when others are mentioned. The Holy Spirit has always been also.


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Do you understand quantum physics? If you understand it a little bit you would know that it defies logic. Einstein called it spooky physics. If humans cannot even understand creation, how are they supposed to understand everything about God?

Vic Hays
07-14-2011, 22:06
How about Tertullian cutting to the chase...
If you want me to believe him to be both the Father and Son, show me some other passages where it is declared, ‘The Lord said to himself, “I am my own Son, today have I begotten myself.” -- Tertullian, Against Praxeas

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Maybe Jesus was called the Son because He was born. He already existed though.

Animal Mother
07-14-2011, 22:57
How about "I Am"
Exodus 34:14

achysklic
07-15-2011, 03:16
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Vic did you notice what I said the Holy Spirit was? I said it was part of the Father not a seperate person.

Now look at the verse you posted "the spirit of God moved" does this sound like a seperate person in the Godhead or part of God?

I think you are adding a bit of traditional thinking into the concept of God.

achysklic
07-15-2011, 03:26
Each person of the Godhead is not always mentioned when others are mentioned. The Holy Spirit has always been also.


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Do you understand quantum physics? If you understand it a little bit you would know that it defies logic. Einstein called it spooky physics. If humans cannot even understand creation, how are they supposed to understand everything about God?

David also referred to the duality of the God family in Psalms 110. "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"

David knew there was no 3rd person, he unstood this well.

Two different Lords are mentioned here. One is the being who became God the Father and the other is the One who became Jesus Christ. Paul quoted this passage to the Jewish Christians - applying it directly to Jesus Christ: "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Heb. 1:13).

"Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis. 1:3-7). When such expressions are used, they are mere figures of speech that are explained by the facts that the ruah [Hebrew word for "Spirit"] was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8). Neither is there found in the OT or in rabbinical literature the notion that God's spirit is an intermediary being between God and the world.

achysklic
07-15-2011, 03:32
There are a lot of suppositions here.

What would Jesus say? The Holy Spirit would not speak of Himself? When He is come? He shall glorify me? Why didn't Jesus just say when the force of the Father is come the Father will glorify Me?

John16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

Most Trinitarian theologians use the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16, as proof of their theory that the Spirit is a person. Here Jesus is recorded as referring to the Spirit as "the Comforter." The pronoun "he" is used in connection with the word "comforter" - parakletos - however, the reason for the use of the personal pronoun "he" is for grammatical, not theological, or spiritual reasons.

All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer. Therefore, the pronoun "he" is used when referring to the Spirit as the parakletos or "Comforter." The other New Testament writers use the word pneuma, which means "breath" or "spirit." This is the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for "spirit" used in the Old Testament. Pneuma is a grammatically neuter word and is always represented by the pronoun "it."

John's use of the parakletos is no proof the Spirit is a person. For if the simple gender of a noun were the basis for the personality of the Spirit, then the Spirit changed gender from the Old to the New Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" in the Old Testament can be found in the feminine gender in a majority of cases and in a masculine senseless often.

ftw13
07-15-2011, 04:54
Given how core a belief in the trinity is to Christians, it seems that your argument points to how human, corrupted and errant the Bible is.

good posting. a moving story is still just a story...

rgregoryb
07-15-2011, 06:58
Most Trinitarian theologians use the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16, as proof of their theory that the Spirit is a person. Here Jesus is recorded as referring to the Spirit as "the Comforter." The pronoun "he" is used in connection with the word "comforter" - parakletos - however, the reason for the use of the personal pronoun "he" is for grammatical, not theological, or spiritual reasons.

All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer. Therefore, the pronoun "he" is used when referring to the Spirit as the parakletos or "Comforter." The other New Testament writers use the word pneuma, which means "breath" or "spirit." This is the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for "spirit" used in the Old Testament. Pneuma is a grammatically neuter word and is always represented by the pronoun "it."

John's use of the parakletos is no proof the Spirit is a person. For if the simple gender of a noun were the basis for the personality of the Spirit, then the Spirit changed gender from the Old to the New Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" in the Old Testament can be found in the feminine gender in a majority of cases and in a masculine senseless often.

now that is a good cut n paste job.....you should give credit to the original author

achysklic
07-15-2011, 11:13
now that is a good cut n paste job.....you should give credit to the original author

Thank you sir, the OP started this thread and wanted Biblical proof only. This does require some copy and pasting to save time. So does this mean you are giving up you pagan ways and rejecting the trinity?

Vic Hays
07-15-2011, 11:27
Most Trinitarian theologians use the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16, as proof of their theory that the Spirit is a person. Here Jesus is recorded as referring to the Spirit as "the Comforter." The pronoun "he" is used in connection with the word "comforter" - parakletos - however, the reason for the use of the personal pronoun "he" is for grammatical, not theological, or spiritual reasons.

All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer. Therefore, the pronoun "he" is used when referring to the Spirit as the parakletos or "Comforter." The other New Testament writers use the word pneuma, which means "breath" or "spirit." This is the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for "spirit" used in the Old Testament. Pneuma is a grammatically neuter word and is always represented by the pronoun "it."

John's use of the parakletos is no proof the Spirit is a person. For if the simple gender of a noun were the basis for the personality of the Spirit, then the Spirit changed gender from the Old to the New Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" in the Old Testament can be found in the feminine gender in a majority of cases and in a masculine senseless often.

The theory is that the use of He is only grammatical. Does this mean that Jesus should have said that Jesus would glorify Jesus in the following text?

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

Other problems with this grammatical theory is that other books of the Bible indicate the third person. For example:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

rgregoryb
07-15-2011, 13:47
Thank you sir, the OP started this thread and wanted Biblical proof only. This does require some copy and pasting to save time. So does this mean you are giving up you pagan ways and rejecting the trinity?

why hail no!

achysklic
07-15-2011, 14:56
The theory is that the use of He is only grammatical. Does this mean that Jesus should have said that Jesus would glorify Jesus in the following text?

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

.

All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer.

John's use of the parakletos is no proof the Spirit is a person. For if the simple gender of a noun were the basis for the personality of the Spirit, then the Spirit changed gender from the Old to the New Testament. The Hebrew word for "spirit" in the Old Testament can be found in the feminine gender in a majority of cases and in a masculine senseless often

achysklic
07-15-2011, 15:25
Here is my flaw with this thread. Going back to the orginal OP it seems this thread was created with the intent to disprove the trinity concept with scripture.

This is the flaw, the trinity is NOT mentioned in scripture so the burden of prooof must be on the trinitarians.

So I ask for those whom fall into this cat. prove with scripture the trinity.

Peace

Vic Hays
07-15-2011, 18:19
Here is my flaw with this thread. Going back to the orginal OP it seems this thread was created with the intent to disprove the trinity concept with scripture.

This is the flaw, the trinity is NOT mentioned in scripture so the burden of prooof must be on the trinitarians.

So I ask for those whom fall into this cat. prove with scripture the trinity.

Peace

Wrong, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned in scripture. If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit is only a force from the Father and not a person, you will have to come up with better scripture and arguments than you have. You want to hold people to the burden of proof, but you also must be judged as you judge.

Jesus said " We" referring to the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit only emanated from the Father, He could not have been "We" from Jesus too.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Brasso
07-15-2011, 22:26
Isn't the "we" here speaking of the Father and Son? I don't see how the holy spirit fits in here as a person. If anything, it shows that the Spirit is the Father.

Kingarthurhk
07-16-2011, 05:32
Here we see an interplay between all three:

Luke 3:21-22, "<SUP>21</SUP> When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened <SUP id=en-NIV-25048 class=versenum>22</SUP> and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

I would say this demonstrates conclusively all three acting in conjunction.

Kingarthurhk
07-16-2011, 05:39
Isn't the "we" here speaking of the Father and Son? I don't see how the holy spirit fits in here as a person. If anything, it shows that the Spirit is the Father.

Well, they are all three equal. Look at how Jesus describes God and again also the mention of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:3-21, "<SUP>5</SUP> Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

<SUP id=en-NIV-26675 class=versenum>6</SUP> Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. <SUP id=en-NIV-26676 class=versenum>7</SUP> If you really know me, you will know<SUP class=footnote value=''>[B][b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b)]</SUP> my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
<SUP id=en-NIV-26677 class=versenum>8</SUP> Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
<SUP id=en-NIV-26678 class=versenum>9</SUP> Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? <SUP id=en-NIV-26679 class=versenum>10</SUP> Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. <SUP id=en-NIV-26680 class=versenum>11</SUP> Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. <SUP id=en-NIV-26681 class=versenum>12</SUP> Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. <SUP id=en-NIV-26682 class=versenum>13</SUP> And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. <SUP id=en-NIV-26683 class=versenum>14</SUP> You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

<SUP id=en-NIV-26684 class=versenum>15</SUP> “If you love me, keep my commands. <SUP id=en-NIV-26685 class=versenum>16</SUP> And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— <SUP id=en-NIV-26686 class=versenum>17</SUP> the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be<SUP class=footnote value='[c (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26686c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26686c)]</SUP> in you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26687 class=versenum>18</SUP> I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26688 class=versenum>19</SUP> Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. <SUP id=en-NIV-26689 class=versenum>20</SUP> On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26690 class=versenum>21</SUP> Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

So, we can see in these verses the interplay between the Three that are One in accord. Also, we are shown our relationship to the Three.

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 00:58
Isn't the "we" here speaking of the Father and Son? I don't see how the holy spirit fits in here as a person. If anything, it shows that the Spirit is the Father.

We is the Father and the Son in the person of the Holy Spirit. Don't expect to comprehend God. Let Him be who he is. Perhaps the Trinity is much more one together than most suppose

John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

achysklic
07-17-2011, 05:07
Wrong, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned in scripture. If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit is only a force from the Father and not a person, you will have to come up with better scripture and arguments than you have. You want to hold people to the burden of proof, but you also must be judged as you judge.

Jesus said " We" referring to the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit only emanated from the Father, He could not have been "We" from Jesus too.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The "we" is def. speaking of the Father and Son....I gave many verses that talk about just the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit is never mentioned.


I have to ask who sits on the right hand of the Father?
Where does the Holy Spirit sit?

achysklic
07-17-2011, 05:10
Well, they are all three equal. Look at how Jesus describes God and again also the mention of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:3-21, "<SUP>5</SUP> Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

<SUP id=en-NIV-26675 class=versenum>6</SUP> Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. <SUP id=en-NIV-26676 class=versenum>7</SUP> If you really know me, you will know<SUP class=footnote value=''>[B][b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b)]</SUP> my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
<SUP id=en-NIV-26677 class=versenum>8</SUP> Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
<SUP id=en-NIV-26678 class=versenum>9</SUP> Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? <SUP id=en-NIV-26679 class=versenum>10</SUP> Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. <SUP id=en-NIV-26680 class=versenum>11</SUP> Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. <SUP id=en-NIV-26681 class=versenum>12</SUP> Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. <SUP id=en-NIV-26682 class=versenum>13</SUP> And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. <SUP id=en-NIV-26683 class=versenum>14</SUP> You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

<SUP id=en-NIV-26684 class=versenum>15</SUP> “If you love me, keep my commands. <SUP id=en-NIV-26685 class=versenum>16</SUP> And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— <SUP id=en-NIV-26686 class=versenum>17</SUP> the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be<SUP class=footnote value='[c (http://glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26686c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26686c)]</SUP> in you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26687 class=versenum>18</SUP> I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26688 class=versenum>19</SUP> Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. <SUP id=en-NIV-26689 class=versenum>20</SUP> On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. <SUP id=en-NIV-26690 class=versenum>21</SUP> Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

So, we can see in these verses the interplay between the Three that are One in accord. Also, we are shown our relationship to the Three.


All three are NOT equal Jesus clearly shows this time and time again.

John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I will come to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I'

achysklic
07-17-2011, 05:13
We is the Father and the Son in the person of the Holy Spirit. Don't expect to comprehend God. Let Him be who he is. Perhaps the Trinity is much more one together than most suppose
.

Vic no offence this is by far the silliest thing you have ever posted. Please post biblical support of the Father and Son in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Wow

The 'Third Person' has no Name in the Trinity theory. "Holy Spirit" is merely a title - "Spirit" referring to substance and "Holy" referring to character, i.e. the 'SPIRIT WHICH IS HOLY.' But Who is the Spirit and what is His Name?


The doctrine of a Trinity claims that the Holy Spirit is NOT the Son, neither is He the Father. Pray, then, why does the Bible teach "that the seed (of the Child) which
was conceived in the Israelite woman, Miriam (not Mary!), was 'of the Holy Spirit' " Matt, 1: 20). Does that not make the Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus? How many 'Fathers' does He have in this configuration of a Trinity?

achysklic
07-17-2011, 05:15
Here we see an interplay between all three:

Luke 3:21-22, "<SUP>21</SUP> When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened <SUP id=en-NIV-25048 class=versenum>22</SUP> and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

I would say this demonstrates conclusively all three acting in conjunction.

Where in scripture does it ever describe any person being "poured out" and descending like a dove?

achysklic
07-17-2011, 05:26
A House Built upon the Sand
The doctrine of the Trinity is built upon shifting sands. It is no more than a mirage that looks real and true but mocks them with its illusion. It is hard to get this message through to a Trinitarian. He is seldom willing or equipped to take the time to investigate te matter seriously and critically. He would rather convince himself his doctrine is being misunderstood and so he instead spends his time reading Trinitarian apologetics to find reasons why he should believe this doctrine and he ignores the facts which indicate why he should not. Indeed, he has been instructed to do just that and it keeps him in the dark. And it is much more enjoyable for him to look for reasons why he should believe this notion rather than look for reasons why he should not. And indeed, what aging pastor of a Trinitarian based church would want to find out he has believed a deception and has taught a false doctrine of many years to his congregation? It would bring his world crashing down around him. It is much easier to live in the fantasy and promote the illusion and build his house upon the sands and refer to that delusion of sand as his "rock of truth." Few Trinitarians are truly prepared to give up certain things for the sake of truth. They do not wish to entertain the terrifying possible that there just might not be a Santa Claus. That is a cross they are not willing to carry.
Unless you are prepared forsake everything and pick up your cross and follow Him, you cannot be His disciple.

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 08:46
Vic no offence this is by far the silliest thing you have ever posted. Please post biblical support of the Father and Son in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Wow

The 'Third Person' has no Name in the Trinity theory. "Holy Spirit" is merely a title - "Spirit" referring to substance and "Holy" referring to character, i.e. the 'SPIRIT WHICH IS HOLY.' But Who is the Spirit and what is His Name?


The doctrine of a Trinity claims that the Holy Spirit is NOT the Son, neither is He the Father. Pray, then, why does the Bible teach "that the seed (of the Child) which
was conceived in the Israelite woman, Miriam (not Mary!), was 'of the Holy Spirit' " Matt, 1: 20). Does that not make the Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus? How many 'Fathers' does He have in this configuration of a Trinity?

Do you read the scripture for meaning or merely try to interpret words?

Jesus is explaining how and in what person (the Comforter) He and the Father will visit the believer and not the world.

Have you ever asked the Paraclete to dwell in you as God promised?

achysklic
07-17-2011, 12:07
Do you read the scripture for meaning or merely try to interpret words?

Jesus is explaining how and in what person (the Comforter) He and the Father will visit the believer and not the world.

Have you ever asked the Paraclete to dwell in you as God promised?

The Bible is literal, Also the verses you posted never shows the Holy spirit equal with the Father or Son. oR that it is a seperate personage.

Also there are several requirement that one must do to recieve the parakletos. Just asking isn't enough!

Brasso
07-17-2011, 14:34
I guess the way I look at is Messiah is a "piece" of the Father, made flesh. I actually find it quite difficult to put it into words. I just know.

I definately don't believe in the traditional view of 3 separate beings that are one. There is just YHWH, and He has a son. That's about as simple as you can put it.

achysklic
07-17-2011, 14:58
I guess the way I look at is Messiah is a "piece" of the Father, made flesh. I actually find it quite difficult to put it into words. I just know.

I definately don't believe in the traditional view of 3 separate beings that are one. There is just YHWH, and He has a son. That's about as simple as you can put it.

Agreed

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 15:20
The Bible is literal, Also the verses you posted never shows the Holy spirit equal with the Father or Son. oR that it is a seperate personage.

Also there are several requirement that one must do to recieve the parakletos. Just asking isn't enough!

I understand that you are trying to makes sense of the Trinity. God just does not fit in your and Brasso's box. You are ignoring portions of scripture to hang on to your notions.

The Bible certainly indicates that the Spirit is a person. A person bears witness. A force does not.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

A person intercedes. A force does not.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

A person has a mind.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Faith is enough to receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

dbcooper
07-17-2011, 15:24
Correct, perhaps the reason that people have the false impression that Jesus was created or came into existence after the Father is that He was born as a man or that He is the leader of the army of heaven. According to the Bible He pre-existed.

Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

MIcah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If God and Jesus were one and the same and not two seperate entities then it poses some interesting questions, at least to me.

Things such as the temptation of Christ by Satan. If Jesus is God then there is no real temptation because no matter what happens he's God.

Even just in his everyday life. He would know that no matter what happens, what ever he does or does not do, in the end he goes back to Heaven. He wouldn't truely experience life as a man with it's uncertianties and trials.

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 15:34
If God and Jesus were one and the same and not two seperate entities then it poses some interesting questions, at least to me.

Things such as the temptation of Christ by Satan. If Jesus is God then there is no real temptation because no matter what happens he's God.

Even just in his everyday life. He would know that no matter what happens, what ever he does or does not do, in the end he goes back to Heaven. He wouldn't truely experience life as a man with it's uncertianties and trials.

Jesus was God first and emptied himself to become a servant. His mission was to save the people that would be safe to save in His kingdom.

He certainly was tempted more than we are.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

achysklic
07-17-2011, 15:55
Jesus was God first and emptied himself to become a servant. His mission was to save the people that would be safe to save in His kingdom.

He certainly was tempted more than we are.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


Why did Jesus say the Father is greater than I?

Why does only the Father know the day and hour of Jesus return?

Why does Jesus sit on the right hand of the Father is they are one?

Where does the Holy Spirit Sit?

Who did Jesus pray to in the garden?

Who did Jesus cry out to on the cross? Himself?

Answers appreciated

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 16:21
Why did Jesus say the Father is greater than I?

Why does only the Father know the day and hour of Jesus return?

Why does Jesus sit on the right hand of the Father is they are one?

Where does the Holy Spirit Sit?

Who did Jesus pray to in the garden?

Who did Jesus cry out to on the cross? Himself?

Answers appreciated

really good questions. The questions do not disprove the Godhead though.

Jesus said that the Father was greater, but the Father has given all judgment to the Son and all power also.

I understand that Jesus is the link to connect us with God. God could not die for us until He became a man. Jesus is both God and man so we can be part of the heavenly family. sons of God.

Brasso
07-17-2011, 17:47
The Bible certainly indicates that the Spirit is a person. A person bears witness. A force does not.

I don't believe it's just a force. I believe it's the presence of the Father. He is Spirit after all. When His Spirit is inside you, He is inside you. I think it's just a way of putting it that allows people to understand it better. If He told them He was inside of them, I can imagine them wondering who was running heaven.

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 19:35
I don't believe it's just a force. I believe it's the presence of the Father. He is Spirit after all. When His Spirit is inside you, He is inside you. I think it's just a way of putting it that allows people to understand it better. If He told them He was inside of them, I can imagine them wondering who was running heaven.

The Spirit must also be the presence of the Son because He says "We" will come in answer as to how Jesus would manifest himself to the believers.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Brasso
07-18-2011, 06:10
Of course. They have the same Spirit.

achysklic
07-18-2011, 06:26
The Father and Son both work with us through the Holy Spirit...This does not make the Holy Spirit a seperate person.......just the opposite. and It does not make them all One person either. Jesus clearly shows in john How He and the Father are one. They aren't one in personage but one in thought and action. Everything the Father thinks Jesus thinks the same and carries it out. Jesus created everything for the Father.

Vic Hays
07-18-2011, 11:15
Of course. They have the same Spirit.

Do you mean that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one? They are three in one?

The Spirit has a mind.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Brasso
07-18-2011, 22:33
I mean that there is the Father. By sending His Spirit into a man, He begot a son, who has His own will, who is lower than the Father in rank, but still "God". And that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. The same Spirit in Messiah. The same "Light" that was.

It's not that there are two powers instead of three. We pray to the Father in Messiah's name, because Messiah is our high priest. He is alive. Now if He were dead, that would be a sin. You don't pray to dead people. But He is alive. He is our high priest and mediator, put in place by the Father to be our head. So praying to Him is no more a sin than talking with your neighbor. He was given all authority by the Father for just this purpose. But He isn't the Father.

1Co 15:27 For “He has put all under His feet.” But when He says “all are put under Him,” it is clear that He who put all under Him is excepted.
1Co 15:28 And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all.

Animal Mother
07-18-2011, 22:34
The Father and Son both work with us through the Holy Spirit...This does not make the Holy Spirit a seperate person.......just the opposite. and It does not make them all One person either. Jesus clearly shows in john How He and the Father are one. They aren't one in personage but one in thought and action. Everything the Father thinks Jesus thinks the same and carries it out. Jesus created everything for the Father. You reject monotheism then?

achysklic
07-19-2011, 03:18
You reject monotheism then?

Yes ........The oneness of God is that God is One Family.

FifthFreedom
07-19-2011, 07:45
Yes ........The oneness of God is that God is One Family.

Well at least you clear up that you are not a monotheist.

Funny G-d never claimed. I am G-d, who is one "family."

Schabesbert
07-19-2011, 07:50
I mean that there is the Father. By sending His Spirit into a man, He begot a son, who has His own will, who is lower than the Father in rank, but still "God".
This happened "in the fullness of time." Your beliefs would necessarily entail that Jesus was created, and therefore I reject your beliefs.

achysklic
07-19-2011, 08:16
Well at least you clear up that you are not a monotheist.

Funny G-d never claimed. I am G-d, who is one "family."

Your god never did :(

My God is a Elohim a family composed right now of the Father , and the Son and soon to be His Begotten.

Brasso
07-19-2011, 15:43
This happened "in the fullness of time." Your beliefs would necessarily entail that Jesus was created, and therefore I reject your beliefs.

The flesh and blood was created. He had a mother. The Son has been since the beginning.


-First you have the Father. Invisible. Unseen. Unkown.
-Then He creates a visible image of Himself. That part that does the creating and is seen and heard by His creation.
-Then that visible image takes on flesh. At this point you have a Son by necessity with His own will. Yet, He is still "God", but not the Father. YHWH is still One, greater than all. The source from which all things come from.

Then, the Son inherits all things and all authority, including the name YHWH. They are one in Spirit. One in authority. YHWH has become our Redeemer by sending Himself, His Son.

Pretty clever. When He said He is going to stand on the Mount of Olives, He really meant He was going to stand on the Mount of Olives.

Schabesbert
07-19-2011, 18:12
The flesh and blood was created. He had a mother. The Son has been since the beginning.


-First you have the Father. Invisible. Unseen. Unkown.
-Then He creates a visible image of Himself. That part that does the creating and is seen and heard by His creation.
Here's where you go off-track.

achysklic
07-19-2011, 19:12
Here's where you go off-track.

Wow i agree with bet again scary lol

Vic Hays
07-19-2011, 20:11
The flesh and blood was created. He had a mother. The Son has been since the beginning.


-First you have the Father. Invisible. Unseen. Unkown.
-Then He creates a visible image of Himself. That part that does the creating and is seen and heard by His creation.


Your logic isn't logical.

The Son has always been. The Father has always been. The Spirit has always been. The Son created all things. This was not done by the visible created image of Himself.

The problem mainly is that you have these concepts that are not backed by the Bible.

The Bible says that the Word became flesh. I don't know how God did it, but He could not die as God unless he also became flesh to die for us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Brasso
07-19-2011, 20:23
-Then He creates a visible image of Himself. That part that does the creating and is seen and heard by His creation.

I think you know what I meant.

"Light, be!" He was brought forth from the bosom of the Father. Is that better?

The Bible says that the Word became flesh. I don't know how God did it, but He could not die as God unless he also became flesh to die for us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isn't that what I said?

Snapper2
07-19-2011, 21:38
I think God sort of tipped His Hand when He said 'LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE". I believe He wanted man in His Family of Father,Son,and Spirit but was unable to dwell in us through His Spirit because of sin. Enter the Son to remove that obstacle allowing His Spirit to bond us with the Son. The Spirit of Truth leads the believer to the Mind of God in His Son. Did God give His Angels His Spirit or are they messengers to obey on command? Did He send His Son to die for any? Maybe He wanted a being that would have His Mind and would do as He would do without being told to do it.:dunno: He does this IMO through His Spirit which I believe is a Being just as seperate as the Son is but with a different function, but with the same purpose.

Vic Hays
07-20-2011, 11:17
I think you know what I meant.

"Light, be!" He was brought forth from the bosom of the Father. Is that better?



Isn't that what I said?

I don't understand "let there be light" to be referring to the creation of the Son.

Brasso
07-20-2011, 11:51
I don't understand "let there be light" to be referring to the creation of the Son.


Don't you find it a bit difficult to say, "Let there be light", when the sun, stars, etc. weren't created till day 4?

How many times is Messiah called the Light of the World? Or the Word called light, lamp, etc?

I don't know how He did it either, but Messiah is that literal light. The literal Word. The literal Torah made flesh. These terms are all interchangeable.

FifthFreedom
07-20-2011, 12:12
Don't you find it a bit difficult to say, "Let there be light", when the sun, stars, etc. weren't created till day 4?

How many times is Messiah called the Light of the World? Or the Word called light, lamp, etc?

I don't know how He did it either, but Messiah is that literal light. The literal Word. The literal Torah made flesh. These terms are all interchangeable.

"Let there be light" was the first statement in Creation, because "light" is the true purpose of existence: through the study of Torah and the fullfilment of mitzvot, Divine radiance is revealed. "Light" is the purpose of existence as a whole. Further, each individual is a microcosm of the world. "Light" is therefore the purpose of each Jew: that he or she transforms his or her situation and environment from darkness and negativity to light and goodness.


day one."

Only after "day one" does the Torah begin to say "a second day," "a third day," etc. This is the perfect example of why no translation is "perfect" -- and this is a pretty glaring mis-step. To be consistent the Torah should have said "the first day,"as your translation has it -- but it DOES NOT. The wording for the first "yom" (not day) correctly translated as "day one" or even "one day." This is a different format that that of the other days, "second, third, fourth." Rashi, referencing Bere**** Rabbah, says that this wording is to separate the first creation from the others. G-d was alone in His world for the angels were not created until the second yom.

Back to your question. It seems to suppose that you need a sun or stars for "day one."

Why?

What makes you think that a yom (specific period of time) requires a sun or stars?

What makes you think that a day is 24 hours and requires the revolution of the earth around the sun? As you pointed out there is no sun yet!

Lastly, for the sake of argument, let's agree that the yoms in question do equal 24 hours as we know them today -- the next question is "from whose perspective"? Think of the example given by Einstein of the relativity of time. In this scenario a twin makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket and returns home to find he has aged less than his identical twin who stayed on Earth. Time is relative!

Brasso
07-20-2011, 12:45
I don't disagree with anything you said. I don't believe a sun was required for day 1. That's my point. This Light wasn't the sun.

I just believe that the Light that was spoken was the Torah, Word, etc.

achysklic
07-20-2011, 13:13
I don't disagree with anything you said. I don't believe a sun was required for day 1. That's my point. This Light wasn't the sun.

I just believe that the Light that was spoken was the Torah, Word, etc.

I agree :)

Vic Hays
07-21-2011, 08:48
Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit One? Regardless of what you think they are, the Bible says they are one.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

All three can dwell in us by the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Brasso
07-21-2011, 10:55
He also prayed that we would be one, just like they are one. That doesn't mean we will be God.

They are one is spirit, thought, purpose, authority. Just not in rank.

achysklic
07-21-2011, 12:06
He also prayed that we would be one, just like they are one. That doesn't mean we will be God.

They are one is spirit, thought, purpose, authority. Just not in rank.

Exactly people always ignore the fact that Jesus went as far to explain to oneness between Him and the Father. It kills me how some can be so blind.

Vic Hays
07-21-2011, 18:36
He also prayed that we would be one, just like they are one. That doesn't mean we will be God.

They are one is spirit, thought, purpose, authority. Just not in rank.

At least you can say they are one. :wavey:

Sully:vz-58
07-21-2011, 18:53
Colossians 2:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29504">9</sup>For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29505">10</sup>And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Ephesians 4:5

King James Version (KJV)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29278">5</sup>One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


I dated a Baptist girl who's pastor baptized in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ."


My father is also a son as well as an uncle, but I do not call him father-son-uncle.


I call him by his name.

Cavalry Doc
07-21-2011, 19:10
Why would a non-Christian, non-believer (in God or Christ) feel the need or desire to post in a thread that is obviously tilted toward a believer and one seeking clarification regarding Christian principals or beliefs.

Look, some of you make it quite clear that you do NOT in any form or fasion hold the same belief or ideals of people of faith. Particularly, people who profess Christianity and who try to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible. Fine. Great. That is certainly your view, your prerogative, your decision.

Why not allow people of like-mind the opportunty to discuss and share their thoughts, questions, and beliefs without hijacking their thread every time? Why not have the common decency to stay out of a discussion that was not directed to you.

It is one thing if a Christian wants to debate a particular subject or idea with an atheist or agnostic and starts a thread for that sole purpose.

To the same degree, you could easily start your own thread on any subject you like and pick apart every last word of someone who does not share your thoughts, beliefs, and opinions.

But it just seems rude, immature, arrogant, and flat out classless to constantly interject your unprovoked (and quite frankly - unsolicited) rants thread, after thread, after thread when like-minded Christians want to discuss things of the bible.

Am I just asking for too much here......?

I've noted that behavior often from the atheist faithful on this forum.

Ogreon
07-21-2011, 23:30
Where in scripture does it ever describe any person being "poured out" and descending like a dove?

Paul writes in Philippians something along the lines of

Even if I be poured out like a drink offering...

Brasso
07-22-2011, 06:58
At least you can say they are one.


I've been trying to say that while still acknowledging that even Messiah said that the Father was greater than He was.

rgregoryb
07-22-2011, 07:16
http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/296345-46014-43.jpg

Vic Hays
07-22-2011, 13:51
I've been trying to say that while still acknowledging that even Messiah said that the Father was greater than He was.

Yes, Jesus did say that. Apparently He had to give up quite a bit to become human. The Bible says He WAS EQUAL and then became a servant.

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kingarthurhk
07-24-2011, 13:14
http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/296345-46014-43.jpg

I like it! A picture worth 1,000 words.

Brasso
07-24-2011, 14:22
Besides being a thoroughly pagan symbol, it is pretty.

achysklic
07-24-2011, 14:45
I like it! A picture worth 1,000 words.

If you research it you will find it is a pagan symbol. Satan likes to come off as pretty though

Cavalry Doc
07-24-2011, 15:17
symbols being what they are, and the fact that with simple drawings, people that never met have drawn similar things, why wouldn't the symbolism be in the eye of the beholder. It means to the viewer, what it means to the viewer.

:dunno:

Kingarthurhk
07-24-2011, 16:17
I am not seeing a pentagram. However, the analogy makes sense: Three that are One. Either way, the whole issue is pretty much simple: The saving relationship with Jesus is what matters, the Holy Spirit will then begin the process of convicting us in truth as we seek to please our Savior.

It has taken me a life time to say without a doubt, I am saved. I am pretty happy about that. Because, I am loved by Jesus, I want to love Him back and keep His commandments. It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

1 Kings 19:11-13, "<SUP>11</SUP> The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. <SUP id=en-NIV-9400 class=versenum>12</SUP> After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. <SUP id=en-NIV-9401 class=versenum>13</SUP> When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave."

God wasn't in the car wreck that messed up my back and leaves me in continual pain of some sort. God wasn't in the genetic disorder that popped up and left my body deficient in potassium that nearly killed me. God wasn't in the gastro intenstinal infection that nearly killed me. However, God answered my question quietly and succinctly in the last four days I was gone through four people, "What must I do to be saved?"

It's not enough to know what is true. It is not enough to be able to teach about what is true. All that is needed is a saving relationship with Jesus.

While I was experiencing for the first time in a long time Phillipians 4:7, " And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." A lay pastor in a place of 100's people to which I was a stranger introduced himself as if he knew me, and knew my pastor introduced himself. His name? Lazarus. And some people don't think God has a sense of humor.

So, I know these folks don't read this forum, but I will put it out there anyway.

Mr. Bolan, Ms. Mower, Mr. Albrect, and finally Mr. Lazarus (the final messenger) you all earned a star in your crown when you helped Jesus and the Holy Spirt bring me spiritual baptism to know that I am actually, factually saved. No more, "I hope so."

I have been baptized by water, but in this last 4 days I was baptized in the Spirit.

God put a new heart, a renewed mind, and a renewed attitude in my heart.

So, Jesus saved me, the Holy Spirit is in me, and God is still on the throne. God bless you all.

rgregoryb
07-24-2011, 17:56
If you research it you will find it is a pagan symbol. Satan likes to come off as pretty though

Who are you, the Church Lady.....you see satan in everything.

It's the Celtic symbol for the Trinity....and before you say it, it did not come from Odin

Vic Hays
07-25-2011, 14:19
My conclusion of the matter of the Trinity is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost exist. Therefore they are three. The Father Son and Holy Ghost also are one, therefore they are one. My human intellect is not big enough to comprehend all that there is to the Godhead. I am just content to let God be God. He certainly has shown me mercy and love. I can hardly wait for Jesus to come and take me away from this dark world.

Roering
07-26-2011, 22:16
If you limit your knowledge of the Trinity to only what is written in scripture it would make for an incomplete discussion.

Kingarthurhk
07-27-2011, 04:32
If you limit your knowledge of the Trinity to only what is written in scripture it would make for an incomplete discussion.

If the Bible is understood, there is no need for more material. The only thing I would think that might be needed is material highlighting and underscoring what is written to make it more plain. E.G a concordance. However, contradictory writtings do not help scripture, only hinder it.

ArtificialGrape
07-27-2011, 08:27
If the Bible is understood, there is no need for more material. The only thing I would think that might be needed is material highlighting and underscoring what is written to make it more plain. E.G a concordance. However, contradictory writtings do not help scripture, only hinder it.
I keep forgetting where in the Bible I can find why the dinosaurs were not given passage on the ark. Can you point this out for me?

Last I knew, the Answers in Genesis crew had not decided if it would be more profitable to have dinosaurs on the Ark Encounter or not, so I'm anxious to here their spin as well.

dbcooper
07-27-2011, 08:47
I keep forgetting where in the Bible I can find why the dinosaurs were not given passage on the ark. Can you point this out for me?

Last I knew, the Answers in Genesis crew had not decided if it would be more profitable to have dinosaurs on the Ark Encounter or not, so I'm anxious to here their spin as well.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dino_ark.html

Brasso
07-27-2011, 16:59
symbols being what they are, and the fact that with simple drawings, people that never met have drawn similar things, why wouldn't the symbolism be in the eye of the beholder. It means to the viewer, what it means to the viewer.

God has pretty good eyes and a very long memory. I wonder what He sees?

Strange fire?

Roering
07-27-2011, 17:14
If the Bible is understood, there is no need for more material. The only thing I would think that might be needed is material highlighting and underscoring what is written to make it more plain. E.G a concordance. However, contradictory writtings do not help scripture, only hinder it.

Those who understand it, know it doesn't spell out everything on matters of faith.

Vic Hays
07-27-2011, 19:26
Those who understand it, know it doesn't spell out everything on matters of faith.

That is a dangerous place to go adding to scripture.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Roering
08-01-2011, 00:32
That is a dangerous place to go adding to scripture.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Who said anything about adding to scripture?

And since when has it become implied that "word of God" is limited to the written word?

Animal Mother
08-01-2011, 01:13
That is a dangerous place to go adding to scripture.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Wasn't the whole New Testament added after Proverbs had been written?

Brasso
08-01-2011, 06:30
Another excellent point from an atheist, albeit based on a false premise, just as most of Christianity does.

The false premise being that the NT somehow changes the Word, which is what Christianity also claims.

Vic Hays
08-01-2011, 08:33
Another excellent point from an atheist, albeit based on a false premise, just as most of Christianity does.

The false premise being that the NT somehow changes the Word, which is what Christianity also claims.

Do you believe in the validity of the New Testament? The New Covenant was the entire purpose of the Old Testament.

Hebrews 9:13-15 For if the blood off bulls and goats and the ahes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Brasso
08-01-2011, 11:31
Of course I believe in it. I wasn't speaking to what you wrote, but to what AM wrote about what you wrote. Sorry for the confusion. I agree with you.

What I was trying to say, which AM made a point of, was that most of Christianity believes the Word did change, when it didn't. The Covenant is what changed.

Vic Hays
08-01-2011, 15:01
Of course I believe in it. I wasn't speaking to what you wrote, but to what AM wrote about what you wrote. Sorry for the confusion. I agree with you.

What I was trying to say, which AM made a point of, was that most of Christianity believes the Word did change, when it didn't. The Covenant is what changed.

When the covenant changed according to the Bible.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabus grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Roering
08-02-2011, 15:58
Vic,

Do you refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Trinity?

Brasso
08-02-2011, 20:18
When the covenant changed according to the Bible.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabus grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here?

But this is a good point you brought out. The same Word they tried to preach to the Jews, they then gave to the gentiles. And if they Jews are supposed to keep the commandments, and they were given the same word, why do gentiles think they don't have to?

Vic Hays
08-02-2011, 21:29
Vic,

Do you refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Trinity?

Yes, we do.

Ogreon
08-02-2011, 23:31
Of course I believe in it. I wasn't speaking to what you wrote, but to what AM wrote about what you wrote. Sorry for the confusion. I agree with you.

What I was trying to say, which AM made a point of, was that most of Christianity believes the Word did change, when it didn't. The Covenant is what changed.

A silly question...

Are you deliberately alluding to Harlan Ellison? Totally unintentional?

"I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"

Brasso
08-03-2011, 06:33
I'm not familiar with that person.

Roering
08-03-2011, 17:01
Yes, we do.

How Catholic of you!

jtull7
08-03-2011, 17:13
The Trinity is a 710-mile (1,140 km) long river that flows entirely within the U.S. state of Texas. It rises in extreme north Texas, a few miles south of the Red River. Its headwaters are separated from the Red River basin by the high bluffs on the south side of the Red River. It runs right through Dallas. Dallas contains many pagans and non-believers and atheists and communists.

Ogreon
08-03-2011, 17:18
I'm not familiar with that person.

He was a somewhat famous science fiction writer. If you ever see the specific short story, you'll immediately get the reference. Every time I see "AM", it springs to mind.

achysklic
08-03-2011, 17:31
How Catholic of you!

Told you Vic was just a Sabbath keeping protestant.

Brasso
08-03-2011, 18:08
He was a somewhat famous science fiction writer. If you ever see the specific short story, you'll immediately get the reference. Every time I see "AM", it springs to mind.

Okay. I googled him.

Actually, AM was a reference to Animal Mother.

Ogreon
08-04-2011, 17:32
Okay. I googled him.

Actually, AM was a reference to Animal Mother.

A good allusion is often hidden inside a direct reference. I suspected that it was just me, thus a silly question.

Thank you for indulging me.

FifthFreedom
08-17-2011, 09:39
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true G-d and Jsus the messiah whom You have sent."

Jesus is praying to the Father and tells us that the only true G-d = You (not "us"/"we"/"You, Me & the Holy Spirit"/or "them"). THAT's a very interesting statement! The only true G-d is explicitly limited to the Father.

I'm very curious to any answers from Christians

Vic Hays
08-17-2011, 13:33
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true G-d and Jsus the messiah whom You have sent."

Jesus is praying to the Father and tells us that the only true G-d = You (not "us"/"we"/"You, Me & the Holy Spirit"/or "them"). THAT's a very interesting statement! The only true G-d is explicitly limited to the Father.

I'm very curious to any answers from Christians

The true God is connected with the Messiah by the word "and". This signifies unity with the true God.

FifthFreedom
08-18-2011, 07:58
The true God is connected with the Messiah by the word "and". This signifies unity with the true God.


Um no, because here jsus is speaking of himself as the "messiah" and is clearly praying to an entirely different person. And further calls the Father "the ONLY true G-d"

Vic Hays
08-18-2011, 08:38
Um no, because here jsus is speaking of himself as the "messiah" and is clearly praying to an entirely different person. And further calls the Father "the ONLY true G-d"

Correct, Jesus is praying to a different person. This thread is a discussion of the Trinity. It does seem mysterious how God could be three persons and yet one God doesn't it? Timothy calls it a mystery.

I Timothy 3:16 And without controvery great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up into glory

FifthFreedom
08-18-2011, 19:36
Timothy calls it a mystery.



I call it something too. :moo:

Vic Hays
08-20-2011, 17:30
I call it something too. :moo:

That is why the Jews are under a perpetual curse from God. They called it down upon themselves. They counted the blood of the Messiah as worth nothing.

Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it."
And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."

FifthFreedom
08-20-2011, 20:14
That is why the Jews are under a perpetual curse from God. They called it down upon themselves. They counted the blood of the Messiah as worth nothing.

Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it."
And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."



You are a Liar. That also why you ran away from your thread with your tail between you legs.

NMG26
08-20-2011, 21:20
Who said anything about adding to scripture?

And since when has it become implied that "word of God" is limited to the written word?

+1:shocked:

NMG26
08-20-2011, 21:26
If you limit your knowledge of the Trinity to only what is written in scripture it would make for an incomplete discussion.

+2:shocked:

Vic Hays
08-20-2011, 21:53
You are a Liar. That also why you ran away from your thread with your tail between you legs.

I think you are mistaken about me being a liar as well as running from my thread.

It is ok to ignore rude insulting conversation.

Proof text for desolation:

Daniel 99:26-27 And after 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself. And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood. And til the end of the war desolations are determined.

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 09:03
I think you are mistaken about me being a liar as well as running from my thread.

It is ok to ignore rude insulting conversation.

Proof text for desolation:

Daniel 99:26-27 And after 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself. And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood. And til the end of the war desolations are determined.



I didn't know Daniel had 99 chapters but for the record i responded to your non-sense in the other thread. You clearly don't understand the book of Daniel, nor history for that matter.

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 09:04
It is ok to ignore rude insulting conversation.



Like calling an entire group of people cursed?

NMG26
08-21-2011, 09:31
Like calling an entire group of people cursed?

Yes. You could have ignored that. I'm glad you did not.

What is your view?
Does God curse anyone?

Vic Hays
08-21-2011, 10:27
Like calling an entire group of people cursed?

I didn't. God did.

2 Chronicles 34:24-25 "Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah.

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 10:30
I didn't. God did.

2 Chronicles 34:24-25 "Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah.

Proof texting. Believe it or not., Once upon a time you actually struck me as a bit knowledgable, yet in your desperation you seem like an ignorant fool who in desperation is grabbing at anything. This happened during the Time of the Kings. Where do you get your proof texting from?

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 10:43
Yes. You could have ignored that. I'm glad you did not.

What is your view?
Does God curse anyone?



Well I suppose he can curse SOME people:
Genesis 12:
2. And I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will aggrandize your name, and [you shall] be a blessing.
3. And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."

Vic Hays
08-21-2011, 11:05
Proof texting. Believe it or not., Once upon a time you actually struck me as a bit knowledgable, yet in your desperation you seem like an ignorant fool who in desperation is grabbing at anything. This happened during the Time of the Kings. Where do you get your proof texting from?

Fuss and bluster all you want. The elephant in the room is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Your curse is my blessing as Paul said.

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 11:12
Paul was about as smart as you...I notice you claim G-d is lying when he said:

44. But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God.

Get it? Genius. G-d will not ever break his covenant with us contrary to your lies in the NT, we are not a "cursed people"
45. I will remember for them the covenant [made with] the ancestors, whom I took out from the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a God to them. I am the Lord.
See I can jump around threads too :)

So in the above..here and now, for the record. You are stating God was't being honest with us..you deny what was written? Come on...Hope in with some of your proof texts..
LOL

G-d will never break our covenant. Humans do it all the time. G-d does not. Our G-d doesn't lie like your god-on-a-stick

achysklic
08-21-2011, 11:34
Paul was about as smart as you...I notice you claim G-d is lying when he said:

44. But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God.

Get it? Genius. G-d will not ever break his covenant with us contrary to your lies in the NT, we are not a "cursed people"
45. I will remember for them the covenant [made with] the ancestors, whom I took out from the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a God to them. I am the Lord.
See I can jump around threads too :)

So in the above..here and now, for the record. You are stating God was't being honest with us..you deny what was written? Come on...Hope in with some of your proof texts..
LOL

G-d will never break our covenant. Humans do it all the time. G-d does not. Our G-d doesn't lie like your god-on-a-stick


FF I believe in Jesus, I follow the NT, however I have studied scripture enough to know God will never break His covenant with you. This is basic knowledge to someone seeking the truth with open eyes and heart.

FifthFreedom
08-21-2011, 11:39
FF I believe in Jesus, I follow the NT, however I have studied scripture enough to know God will never break His covenant with you. This is basic knowledge to someone seeking the truth with open eyes and heart.



Agreed. I have no issue with someone who believes in the NT. Granted, we obviously disagree. I have quite a few xtian friends. Obviously we disagree. I can agree to disagree until someone like Vic tries to make it personal.

Vic Hays
08-21-2011, 12:46
Agreed. I have no issue with someone who believes in the NT. Granted, we obviously disagree. I have quite a few xtian friends. Obviously we disagree. I can agree to disagree until someone like Vic tries to make it personal.

Well, where is your temple? Why was it destroyed? Nothing personal, just history. Why did God curse you with the destruction in 70 AD?

achysklic
08-21-2011, 15:12
Well, where is your temple? Why was it destroyed? Nothing personal, just history. Why did God curse you with the destruction in 70 AD?

Vic, you do know their temple will be rebuilt, so if God is allowing it to be rebuilt He obviously didn't destroy it as a curse!

Vic Hays
08-21-2011, 18:51
Vic, you do know their temple will be rebuilt, so if God is allowing it to be rebuilt He obviously didn't destroy it as a curse!

What strange thinking. You think God destroyed the city and temple as a blessing?

Prophecies for the rebuilding of the temple have already been fulfilled.

Acts 15:15-20 And to this agree the words of the prophet; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which are turned frm God; But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornicaton, and from things strangled, and from blood.

FifthFreedom
08-22-2011, 07:05
Well, where is your temple? Why was it destroyed? Nothing personal, just history. Why did God curse you with the destruction in 70 AD?

A couple of problems Vic,
First, you are putting waaaay too much stress on abuilding. This is what we did once upon a time. The Jews thought that they could put their trust in a building. It is not about the Temple of Stone and Morter.

Why was it destroyed?


The second Temple was destroyed because of Because of sinat chinam, senseless hatred of one Jew for another. Source: Talmud, Yoma 9b. There were many sects in this period and we basically destroyed ourselves. From Aish:

* Hellenized and assimilated Jews. They welcomed the Roman presence and profited by it. They were angry with other Jews who resisted Roman domination.
* The Sadducees. For the most part, these were wealthy Jews who denied the Divine origin of the Oral Law. They dominated (and corrupted) the Temple hierarchy, and were willing to cooperate with the Romans to keep their power base. They saw other Jewish factions as troublemakers.
* The Pharisees. These were mainstream Jews who wanted nothing to do with the Romans, but they were pragmatic. They wanted Judaism to survive and short of giving up their religious principles were willing to make the best of the Roman domination. They disapproved of the other Jewish factions ― those that tried to curry favor with the Romans and those that advocated open rebellion.
* The Zealots. They were comprised of several different groups of nationalistic extremists. Amongst the zealots was a group called the Sicarii (meaning "dagger") who derived their name from the concealed daggers they carried that were used to murder their political opponents. They were incensed at the Roman presence and were angry with other Jews whom they saw as actively or tacitly cooperating with the Romans.
* The Biryonim. This was the criminal element often masquerading under the guise of nationalism. They sided with the Zealots.
* Splinter sects. These religious groups (such as the Essenes) held extreme views and opposed both the Sadducees and the Pharisees. For example, the Dead Sea Sect (famed for the Dead Sea Scrolls) expected the world to end shortly and went off to live in the desert to escape the depravity and corruption of city life and to prepare for the End of Days.

Jewish sources list 24 separate factions. Their conflicting views were a symptom of a disease afflicting the Jewish people at this time. The rabbis call this disease sinat chinam ― "senseless hatred" of one Jew for another Jew.


While the Romans are besieging the city on the outside, the Jews are waging a civil war inside.

Forces of the various factions are occupying various parts of the city. Most importantly, the Sicarii and the Zealots, led by Yochanan of Gush Chalav, have control of the Temple Mount. An unlikely alliance of Sadducees and Pharisees makes up the bulk of the moderate forces which rule the rest of the city.

When the moderates attempt to remove the extremists from the Temple Mount, Yochanan of Gush Chalav brings in non-Jewish mercenaries, the Idumeans, who slaughter the moderate Jews.

As if that is not enough, the Zealots destroy the great storehouses of food so that the people would have no choice but to fight or starve.

With the food storehouses destroyed, famine breaks out in the city and desperate people try and sneak outside the walls to forage for food. Anyone that is caught by the Romans is immediately put to death via the standard Roman form of execution - crucifixion. So many die that the city is surrounded by thousands of crucified Jews.

So the soldiers out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest; when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies. Josephus, Wars 5.11.1)

While you are asking me "where is your Temple?"
I ask you..."where is your man-god?"

Paul7
08-22-2011, 19:37
The Temple was destroyed due to gross disobedience by rejecting and having the Messiah killed, just as Jesus predicted.

"There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."


So, FF, why did the Babylonian exile happen, where there a lot of Jewish sects back then too?

Brasso
08-22-2011, 19:54
Now you're getting rude.

For the record, the majority of the Jews who saw/heard Him, believed who He was. It was a small percentage of the religious leader, mostly appointed by the Romans, that pushed to have Him executed.

And He did it for everyone's sins.

rgregoryb
08-22-2011, 20:02
Now you're getting rude.

For the record, the majority of the Jews who saw/heard Him, believed who He was. It was a small percentage of the religious leader, mostly appointed by the Romans, that pushed to have Him executed.

And He did it for everyone's sins.

not everyone

achysklic
08-23-2011, 06:41
Brasso alot of people are getting rude on here. Kinda outta of control at the moment. I admit I take things to far at times :(

It's just most all of us don't run to a mod and try to get my hands spanked. I do hope a certain someone put me on ignore so I don't have to deal with them anymore ....:wavey::crying:

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 07:48
Brasso alot of people are getting rude on here. Kinda outta of control at the moment. I admit I take things to far at times :(

It's just most all of us don't run to a mod and try to get my hands spanked. I do hope a certain someone put me on ignore so I don't have to deal with them anymore ....:wavey::crying:

Well, you're not the only one. Funny how the mods accuse me of "attacking" people when about half of all the posts on here are either xtians bashing Muslims, xtians bashing Jews or xtians bashing each other. Yet somehow I was being "rude" Because He went and started bawling.:crying:

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 07:49
The Temple was destroyed due to gross disobedience by rejecting and having the Messiah killed, just as Jesus predicted.



So, FF, why did the Babylonian exile happen, where there a lot of Jewish sects back then too?

Still waiting for you to answer my question Vic. Just because you for the mods to close the other thread doesn't mean I will forget.:tongueout:

Vic Hays
08-23-2011, 08:19
Still waiting for you to answer my question Vic. Just because you for the mods to close the other thread doesn't mean I will forget.:tongueout:

You asked a lot of questions. Be specific.

May God bless you :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 08:25
You asked a lot of questions. Be specific.

May God bless you :angel:



So do you forget so easily ( sorry, that didn;t offend you did it?)

I started a thread on it.,..just for you :wavey:

Paul7
08-23-2011, 09:35
Still waiting for you to answer my question Vic. Just because you for the mods to close the other thread doesn't mean I will forget.:tongueout:

This is Paul, not Vic. What question are you referring to? I suspect it's already been answered, that you reject the answer notwithstanding.

BTW, when are you going to answer my question about Paul 'inventing' Christianity. Again, what did he believe that Jesus didn't?

FifthFreedom
08-23-2011, 11:40
This is Paul, not Vic. What question are you referring to? I suspect it's already been answered, that you reject the answer notwithstanding.

BTW, when are you going to answer my question about Paul 'inventing' Christianity. Again, what did he believe that Jesus didn't?


No the question was proof of a death and subsequent "2nd coming"

Then we can look at the differences between Paul and jsus, not that it would be particularly relevant to me since I am not a chrstian

Brasso
08-23-2011, 11:40
BTW, when are you going to answer my question about Paul 'inventing' Christianity. Again, what did he believe that Jesus didn't?


Paul didn't invent Christianity. Christianity invented Christianity, based on a very twisted interpretation of Paul. Is that better? Maybe that's why it's called Pauline Christianity.

In reality, they both believed the same thing.

In nominal Christian thought, they believed the same thing.

Problem is that reality and Christianity theology aren't the same thing.

Paul7
08-23-2011, 14:27
No the question was proof of a death and subsequent "2nd coming"

Then we can look at the differences between Paul and jsus, not that it would be particularly relevant to me since I am not a chrstian

We went over this, I say to name one, Is. 53 for Jesus' death and the Daniel reference for the second coming.

Now can you back up your Paul statement, or did you just make it up?

Vic Hays
08-23-2011, 21:23
No the question was proof of a death and subsequent "2nd coming"



Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, it shall break in poieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a trime of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the eartyh shll awake, some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

God bless you

Brasso
08-23-2011, 22:56
I already know what you're going to say Fifth.

Septuagint.

FifthFreedom
08-24-2011, 06:50
We went over this, I say to name one, Is. 53 for Jesus' death and the Daniel reference for the second coming.

Now can you back up your Paul statement, or did you just make it up?


The "servant in Isaiah 53 even if we wanted to say it wasn't Jacob is said to have "suffered" it never says this servant dies, much less claims the servant dies and is resurrected. In fact it claims he shall have a long life and shall have offspring. So clearly you would be wrong on this. I think I did explain it to you before..

So let's get back to my question. Is there something a little more convincing you can come up with??

FifthFreedom
08-24-2011, 06:57
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, it shall break in poieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a trime of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the eartyh shll awake, some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

God bless you



]Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

That's funny. The beginning of the chapter in the KJV says:
12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel...."

Stone Edition Tanach reads:
"The Prophecy of the word of HaShem concerning Israel..."

Clearly this is who this is speaking about. Did you read the whole chapter or did you just choose to "proof text" because that's easier?


Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, it shall break in poieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Not only did we cover the before, but there is no mention of any death and subsequent "2nd coming" here which is what I am asking for.


Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a trime of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the eartyh shll awake, some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."


Again...(sigh) this has NOTHING to do with the topic. You're just posting bits and pieces of scripture that is totally irrelevant to the question.
If you don't know the answer, it's ok to say "I just don't know" or "I honestly am not sure" I wouldn't laugh at you. It would be an honest answer if you truly didn't know of any scriptural proofs from the Nach concerning a 2nd coming or the death of the Messiah. But to try and twist something else into it to "fit" isn't going to work with someone very familiar with the Great Prophets.

Vic Hays
08-24-2011, 11:00
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17821208]]Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

That's funny. The beginning of the chapter in the KJV says:
12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel...."

Stone Edition Tanach reads:
[I]"The Prophecy of the word of HaShem concerning Israel..."[I][QUOTE]

Clearly there is a difference of interpretation about who Israel is.

Israel means "a prince of God". This was the name that Jacob (the usurper) got when he began to have faith in God and His promises. The person who has faith in God and His promises is Israel.

God bless you

Paul7
08-24-2011, 21:18
The "servant in Isaiah 53 even if we wanted to say it wasn't Jacob is said to have "suffered" it never says this servant dies, much less claims the servant dies and is resurrected.

Not really. "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter......He was cut off from the land of the living, for the trangression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." "Because he poured out his life unto death."

In fact it claims he shall have a long life

Christ would live forever. See also Is. 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."

and shall have offspring.

His spiritual descendents, who Christians are.

So clearly you would be wrong on this.

Uh, no, that would be you. Here the 'servant' dies, yet lives forever. The risen Lord fits the bill perfectly.



So tell me how Paul invented Christianity again?

FifthFreedom
08-25-2011, 09:01
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17821208]]Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

That's funny. The beginning of the chapter in the KJV says:
12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel...."

Stone Edition Tanach reads:
[I]"The Prophecy of the word of HaShem concerning Israel..."[I][QUOTE]

Clearly there is a difference of interpretation about who Israel is.

Israel means "a prince of God". This was the name that Jacob (the usurper) got when he began to have faith in God and His promises. The person who has faith in God and His promises is Israel.

God bless you


OK,
here is a Hebrew lesson for you:
Israel mean: "he who struggles with G-d" and he got that name after his wrestling with the angel. Please do not try and tell me what Israel means in Hebrew. Please.
It never means Prince of G-d. 100% false.

FifthFreedom
08-25-2011, 09:10
Not really. "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter......He was cut off from the land of the living, for the trangression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." "Because he poured out his life unto death."



Christ would live forever. See also Is. 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."



His spiritual descendents, who Christians are.



Uh, no, that would be you. Here the 'servant' dies, yet lives forever. The risen Lord fits the bill perfectly.



So tell me how Paul invented Christianity again?


Not really. "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter......He was cut off from the land of the living, for the trangression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned [b]a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." "Because he poured out his life unto death."

Led "Like a lamb to a slaughter is a figure of speech. Not literally "taken and slaughtered like a lamb"


Still no mention of a literal death and "second coming" still dancing i see.

Verse 10: "...if his soul would acknowledge guilt..."

This again is referring to Jacob (Israel) that Jacob need to aknowledge their guilt and repent.
If it is jsus, why would he need to repent since according to you, he never committed any sins? Alsoi there was no mention in the NT of him being ill. Nor does it state this servant would live forever so even that doesn't fit your explanation.
And the verse goes on to say that IF he acknowledges his guilt, he will see offspring and live long days. Jsus died young and had no offspring and your trying to explain it away with "spiritual descendants" holds no water nor is their any hint of such a thing in this verse when read in context.

Maybe you may wanna find a better proof text and let's return to my original question.....

Vic Hays
08-25-2011, 15:21
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17821991][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17821208]]Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

That's funny. The beginning of the chapter in the KJV says:
12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel...."

Stone Edition Tanach reads:
[I]"The Prophecy of the word of HaShem concerning Israel..."[I]


OK,
here is a Hebrew lesson for you:
Israel mean: "he who struggles with G-d" and he got that name after his wrestling with the angel. Please do not try and tell me what Israel means in Hebrew. Please.
It never means Prince of G-d. 100% false.

Well, who did the Jews pierce that they should mourn for as an only son?

Thank you for the Hebrew lesson. I read the story and it seems that what Jacob was wrestling with was his own fear and not trusting God's promise when God told him to return to his home and God would be with him.

I struggle myself learning to trust God and His promises to me. I have been learning that He is reliable. All of His promises are sure His way.

Peace and blessings to you :angel:

Paul7
08-25-2011, 18:15
Not really. "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter......He was cut off from the land of the living, for the trangression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned [b]a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." "Because he poured out his life unto death."

Led "Like a lamb to a slaughter is a figure of speech. Not literally "taken and slaughtered like a lamb"


Still no mention of a literal death and "second coming" still dancing i see.

The only dancing is yours trying to escape the obvious. You falsely claim Is. 53 doesn't mention the servant dying, I pointed out you're wrong. Do you know what death and grave mean?

Verse 10: "...if his soul would acknowledge guilt..."

This again is referring to Jacob (Israel) that Jacob need to aknowledge their guilt and repent.
If it is jsus, why would he need to repent since according to you, he never committed any sins?

"Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering....." Yes, he took our guilt upon himself. Our sins are an offense against God, only God can forgive us. As v. 4-5 says, "Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." If not Jesus, who do you think this is talking about?

Alsoi there was no mention in the NT of him being ill.

What are you talking about? The NT accounts go into great detail of his scourging and crucifixtion. That's not being ill?

Nor does it state this servant would live forever so even that doesn't fit your explanation.

No, it says his days will be prolonged, after it talks of his death, and seen in the context of the earlier passage of Is. which says he will live forever, it fits.

And the verse goes on to say that IF he acknowledges his guilt, he will see offspring and live long days. Jsus died young and had no offspring and your trying to explain it away with "spiritual descendants" holds no water nor is their any hint of such a thing in this verse when read in context.

So offspring must be literal children but death doesn't mean death and a lamb being led to slaughter isn't literal? Nice double standard.

Paul7
08-25-2011, 18:19
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17821991][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17821208]]Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

That's funny. The beginning of the chapter in the KJV says:
12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel...."

Stone Edition Tanach reads:
[I]"The Prophecy of the word of HaShem concerning Israel..."[I]


OK,
here is a Hebrew lesson for you:
Israel mean: "he who struggles with G-d" and he got that name after his wrestling with the angel. Please do not try and tell me what Israel means in Hebrew. Please.
It never means Prince of G-d. 100% false.

That's one opinion.

FifthFreedom
08-28-2011, 09:50
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17826127][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17821991]

Well, who did the Jews pierce that they should mourn for as an only son?

Thank you for the Hebrew lesson. I read the story and it seems that what Jacob was wrestling with was his own fear and not trusting God's promise when God told him to return to his home and God would be with him.

I struggle myself learning to trust God and His promises to me. I have been learning that He is reliable. All of His promises are sure His way.

Peace and blessings to you :angel:


Where does it say THE JEWS PIERCED ANYONE??????

This is prime example of you not even paying attention to the text nor the subject/object. Who is the "THEY" that the text is referring to here???

FifthFreedom
08-28-2011, 09:51
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17826127][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17821991]

That's one opinion.



NO, that's what the word means in Hebrew, It isn;t an opinion. It is a FACT

FifthFreedom
08-28-2011, 09:56
"Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering....."



This is so blatently NOT what the text reads.

Vic Hays
08-28-2011, 14:42
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17827472][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17826127]


Where does it say THE JEWS PIERCED ANYONE??????

This is prime example of you not even paying attention to the text nor the subject/object. Who is the "THEY" that the text is referring to here???

Well you are right it does not say Jews. It says the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will look on the One they pierced and mourn for Him

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

God bless you

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 06:42
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17839269][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17827472]

Well you are right it does not say Jews. It says the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will look on the One they pierced and mourn for Him

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

God bless you


What do the verse right before and right after it say?
What is the subject/object?

Seems a lot of people here have trouble with this little thing they call context

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 08:27
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17840472][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17839269]


What do the verse right before and right after it say?
What is the subject/object?

Seems a lot of people here have trouble with this little thing they call context

The verse says that the house of David and Jerusalem have pierced God. They will mourn for Him.

This is a thread on the trinity isn't it. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all in this text. One day it may even happen to you that you will recognize your Lord and Savior. Maybe it will be like Paul met Jesus.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 08:35
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843528][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17840472]

The verse says that the house of David and Jerusalem have pierced God. They will mourn for Him.

This is a thread on the trinity isn't it. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all in this text. One day it may even happen to you that you will recognize your Lord and Savior. Maybe it will be like Paul met Jesus.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


How in the world could G-d say they pierced HIM?

I asked you to quote what was before and after and I see you haven't.

What is the proper translation?

"I will pour out upon the house of David and upoin the inhabitants of Jerusalema spirit of grace and supplications. They will look towards me because of those whom they have stabbed.."

Never states they "stabbed G-d" that's just typical xtian deliberately changing the text. That's why I asked you to back up and post what the scripture states several verses before and after so the readers here can see what the subject/object is. Something i see you are afraid to do. And When all else fails, you can always try and get me thrown off the forum again :upeyes:

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 08:36
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843528][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17840472]


This is a thread on the trinity isn't it. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all in this text. One day it may even happen to you that you will recognize your Lord and Savior. Maybe it will be like Paul met Jesus.




I have a L-rd and Savior. It is Hashem and Hashem alone. Why would I trade the Eternal El Shaddai for a dead human being?

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 09:09
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843785][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843528]


I have a L-rd and Savior. It is Hashem and Hashem alone. Why would I trade the Eternal El Shaddai for a dead human being?

Your opinion is noted.

My opinion is that Jesus is alive forevermore!! Praise God!!!

Revelation 2:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold , I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and death.

I sure like my opinion better than yours.

Shalom :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 09:11
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843808][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843785]


I sure like my opinion better than yours.

Shalom :angel:


That's good. Because I wouldn't trade my G-d for yours any day of the week. :rofl:

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 09:18
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843913][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843808]


That's good. Because I wouldn't trade my G-d for yours any day of the week. :rofl:

You don't have to trade Him, just get a better understanding of Him.


Peace :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-29-2011, 09:43
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843921][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843913]

You don't have to trade Him, just get a better understanding of Him.


Peace :angel:



"Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I HaShem? And there is no G-d else beside Me, a just G-d and a Saviour; there is none beside Me."


"To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?"

Not too difficult to understand.:wavey:

Paul7
08-29-2011, 10:28
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843954][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843921]



"Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I HaShem? And there is no G-d else beside Me, a just G-d and a Saviour; there is none beside Me."


"To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?"

Not too difficult to understand.:wavey:

As you say about context, Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead you quote. Like in Genesis where it says 'Let US make man in OUR image.'

Who do you think is being 'pierced' in the passage?

Vic Hays
08-29-2011, 20:38
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843954][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17843921]



"Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I HaShem? And there is no G-d else beside Me, a just G-d and a Saviour; there is none beside Me."


"To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?"

Not too difficult to understand.:wavey:

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

We have been too intellectual about this. Maybe it is a time to be spiritual. You are of the house of David, correct? If so you should ask for the Shechina to be poured out on you and anoint you according to this promise. You believe the scripture to be true and God's promises sure don't you?

May God pour out His Spirit upon you

FifthFreedom
08-30-2011, 07:42
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17844040][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843954]

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

We have been too intellectual about this. Maybe it is a time to be spiritual. You are of the house of David, correct? If so you should ask for the Shechina to be poured out on you and anoint you according to this promise. You believe the scripture to be true and God's promises sure don't you?

May God pour out His Spirit upon you

Asking for the Divine Presence to rest upon me has nothing to do with the "anointing" which we are discussing here

FifthFreedom
08-30-2011, 07:51
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17844040][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843954]

As you say about context, Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead you quote. Like in Genesis where it says 'Let US make man in OUR image.'

Who do you think is being 'pierced' in the passage?

So you don't believe G-d speaks to his Heavenly Court? Whats to say G-d wasn;t speaking to the Accuser he was speaking to in Job? Who were the ministering angles in Ezekeil 1:1 was he not addressing His court in II Kings? Why do you insist it is jsus when there is nothing in the text to make you think such?

FifthFreedom
08-30-2011, 09:06
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17844040][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17843954]

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.





I really do not see your fascination with Zechariah Chapter 12.


For example, the prophet makes the promise that Jerusalem and its inhabitants will be protected: 12:7-8- and the L-rd will save the tents of Judah first, so that the splendor of the house of david and the splendor of the inhabitants of Jerusalem should not overwhelm Judah. On that day, the L-rd shall protect the inhabitants of Jerslaem, and it shall come to pass on that day that even the weakes among them shall be like david, and the house of David shall be as angels. Like an angel of the L-rd before them.

Yet the historical record testifies that, less than 40 years after the supposed crucifixion, Jerusalem was torched and destroyed by the romans and its people were expelled and exiled-yet another prophesy not fulfilled by jesus.
The prophet also foretells the destruction of those nations that attacked Jerusalem: 12:9 andit shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that have come upon Jerusalem.

However, according to the historical record, none of these nations were destroyed in the days of jesus this, too, remains a prophecy not yet fulfilled.

Vic Hays
08-30-2011, 09:28
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17846841][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17844040]

Asking for the Divine Presence to rest upon me has nothing to do with the "anointing" which we are discussing here

Have you discussed this "Divine Presence" resting upon you with Hashem?

I think you are avoiding Him.

The personal experience that you avoid I gladly embrace.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

May the Divine One dwell with you :angel:

FifthFreedom
08-30-2011, 11:48
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17848098][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17846841]

Have you discussed this "Divine Presence" resting upon you with Hashem?

I think you are avoiding Him.

The personal experience that you avoid I gladly embrace.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

May the Divine One dwell with you :angel:


Speaking of "avoiding" Why do you keep AVOIDING the rest of what the Prophet Zechariah plainly expressed? Is it because you just are more comfortable "proof texting?"

No I don't avoid G-d. I don't envy people who engage in avodah zarah. We Jews are eating milk and honey and you are trying to tempt us with treif. Seriously??

Vic Hays
08-30-2011, 13:18
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17848414][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17848098]


Speaking of "avoiding" Why do you keep AVOIDING the rest of what the Prophet Zechariah plainly expressed? Is it because you just are more comfortable "proof texting?"

No I don't avoid G-d. I don't envy people who engage in avodah zarah. We Jews are eating milk and honey and you are trying to tempt us with treif. Seriously??

You expressed interest in the Holy Spirit and His being poured out or anointing people. You wonder how you could have stabbed God (in the person of the Son). You acknowledged the Shechina as a reality and yet you claim this anointing and personal relationship with God is treif. This reminds me of what Stephen said:

Acts 7:51-53 "You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 07:14
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17848884][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17848414]

You expressed interest in the Holy Spirit and His being poured out or anointing people. You wonder how you could have stabbed God (in the person of the Son). You acknowledged the Shechina as a reality and yet you claim this anointing and personal relationship with God is treif. This reminds me of what Stephen said:

Acts 7:51-53 "You stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."


And yet still you keep avoiding. Which is ok, it shows everyone on this board that you can't even back up your own claims nor admit when you are wrong.

Paul7
09-01-2011, 07:38
Yet the historical record testifies that, less than 40 years after the supposed crucifixion, Jerusalem was torched and destroyed by the romans and its people were expelled and exiled-yet another prophesy not fulfilled by jesus.

Actually, Jesus predicted this event.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down'" (Matt.24:1-8 NIV). See also Lk.21:5-6.

The prophet also foretells the destruction of those nations that attacked Jerusalem: 12:9 andit shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that have come upon Jerusalem.

However, according to the historical record, none of these nations were destroyed in the days of jesus this, too, remains a prophecy not yet fulfilled.

It will happen in the Second Coming.


Here's a question for you, FF. What to you think of these strange historical happenings around the time of Jesus' death to the Roman conquest?

From an article by B.L. Cocherell

"The Jewish Talmud says that 40 years before the Temple was destroyed the gates of the temple opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them (i.e., the gates) saying, "Hekel, Hekel, why do you alarm us? We know that you are destined to be destroyed" (Yoma 39b).



The priests understood that, for Ezekiel's prophecy to be fulfilled, the existing temple would have to be destroyed and a new one built; however, because they did not understand the prophecies concerning the Messiah for their time, they did not understand the supernatural opening of the gates to mean that the old system of atonement was being replaced with a new one.



The Sanhedrin



The Sanhedrin officiated from the Chamber of Hewn Stones which was about 120 feet southeast of the Temple and its enormous stone lintel, which was at least 30 feet long, weighed some 30 tons and had cracked during the earthquake at the Messiah's death.



History tells us that the Sanhedrin moved from their opulent surroundings in the Chamber of Hewn Stones to lesser accommodations shortly after the earthquake. Because there is no record of the Sanhedrin being forced by the Romans to move from the Temple (which would have caused a major political crisis), one can assume that the Sanhedrin moved because the earthquake had so damaged the building that it was unsafe for them to continue to meet there.



It is interesting that, prior to the Messiah's crucifixion in 30 A. D., the Romans had taken away the Sanhedrin's authority to execute criminals (See Jn.18:31; Talmud Sanh.1:1,7:2). The last judgement that the Sanhedrin made from the Temple was to sentence the Messiah and Creator of humanity to death. From 30 A.D. to the time of this writing no Sanhedrin has officiated from a Temple in Jerusalem. With the departure of the Sanhedrin from the Chamber of Hewn Stones, the law no longer went forth from the Temple.



Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was banished from their official residence to the trading station on the Temple Mount (Shabbat 15a), and eventually off the Mount altogether.



40 YEARS OF WARNINGS



Many wonder why God waited 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection to fulfill his prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. First, the number 40 in the Bible is symbolic of trial, testing, and punishment. Second, waiting 40 years shows God's patience in allowing the Jews time to repent and turn back to him with proper behavior and worship so that he could bless them instead of punishing them.

Although the Temple and city were not destroyed until 70 A.D., the supernatural events that occurred on the day the Messiah was murdered were only a few of the many warnings given to the Jewish people prior to the destruction of their beloved Temple and city. On the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. a series of two consecutive warnings that were repeated on this day for another 39 years began.



A Black Stone and A Scarlet Thread



"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat" (Lev.16:8 KJV).



There is much debate over exactly what kind of objects the lots were. However, the information found in the Babylonian Talmud and the Mishnah indicates that the lots were two stones—one white and one black. The white stone had the words “For the Lord” written on it, and the black stone had the words “For Azazal” (i.e., the goat that is sent away or banished) written on it.



These two stones were placed into a container and it was shaken; then, without looking into the container, the high priest would put his right hand into the container and draw out one of the lots.



The Babylonian Talmud shows that, for two hundred years before 30 A.D., the first stone to appear in the right hand of the high priest randomly fluctuated each year between the white and black stone. One would expect this type of randomness, because God selected the more perfect goat to be slain for the sins of the people. But, beginning with the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. (the year of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ), the black stone appeared in the right hand of the high priest for the next 39 years.



The chances of the black stone (For Azazal) appearing 40 consecutive times in the right hand of the high priest is over a trillion to one according to Pascal's table of numerical odds.



The continual appearance of the black stone in the right hand of the high priest was surely a sign of God's displeasure with the House of Judah and a warning for them to repent.



The fulfillment of the prophetic black stone came after forty years of continuous warning when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 A. D. by the Roman Empire.



The Scarlet Thread



On the Day of Atonement, a scarlet wool thread was placed on the door of the sanctuary. It was said that this thread turned white when the live goat was set free. But, beginning on the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D., this thread never turned white again. See Yoma 39b, Babylonian Talmud and pages 166, 170 Mishnah, by Danby.



Clearly, the failure of the scarlet thread to turn white was another sign of God's disapproval of Israel's worship of him and their impending punishment if they did not repent. See Isa.1:18.



THE REBELLION



Shortly after the beginning of 63 A.D. and while Jerusalem was still a peaceful and thriving city, Jesus the son of Ananus began proclaiming and warning of the coming destruction to Jerusalem. For his continued effort to warn of the impending disaster (which lasted seven years and five months according to Josephus) he was ridiculed and beaten.



Three years after Jesus the son of Ananus began his prophetic warnings, and in the Spring of 66 A.D., the Jews of Judea began a full scale rebellion against Rome.



Besides the continual warnings of the son of Ananus, the Jews also received a number of supernatural warnings of the coming destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.



The Jewish historian Josephus recorded several dramatic events and warnings that concerned the Temple worship system at Jerusalem (War, Book 6. ch.5.) and foretold the end of the Temple worship system at Jerusalem. The following are just a few of the many warnings of impending disaster to come upon Jerusalem.



During the Feast of Unleavened Bread in 66 A.D., at about 3 in them morning, a light as bright as daylight appeared around the altar for half an hour. Although some thought it was a good sign, the scribes understood it to be a precursor to the supernatural events that followed during the Feast--A heifer being led for sacrifice was said to have given birth to a lamb in the midst of the Temple. Also, around midnight, during the Feast, the huge eastern gate of the inner court of the temple, which was made of brass and normally took twenty men to shut, opened on its own. Josephus says that this was understood by knowledgeable men to mean that the Temple's protection had vanished and that the gate was opened for the benefit of their enemies. These enlightened men publicly declared that this sign foreshadowed the disaster that was coming on them (Wars IV,5,3).
On the twenty first of the month of Iyar, just before sunset, chariots and soldiers in armor were seen running about in the clouds around the city. See Lk.21:20.
During the night portion of the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D., as the priests were entering the inner court of the Temple, they felt a quaking and heard a great noise and a sound like a great multitude of voices saying, "Let us remove hence".
Jewish historical records state that the shekinah glory departed the Temple at that time and remained over the mount of olives for three and a half years, during which time, a voice could sometimes be heard coming from the mount pleading for the Jews to repent. See Midrash Lamentations 2:11. It is said that, just before the Roman's final siege of Jerusalem, that this light which appeared over the Mount of Olives disappeared into the heavens.
The Jews failed to heed these and many other warnings to repent of their sins and return to their God in humble obedience. If indeed the nation of Israel began its covenant relationship with the Creator God on the day of Pentecost at the foot of Mount Sinai, it ended this relationship on the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D."

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 07:49
Actually, Jesus predicted this event.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down'" (Matt.24:1-8 NIV). See also Lk.21:5-6.



It will happen in the Second Coming.


Two things wrong...As has been proven long ago in another thread jsus also predicted that there would also not be left standing one stone in Jerusalem itself, not just the Temple yet in Jerusalem today, there are in fact still structures standing from that time period.

Another problem. Your friend Vic claims this prophecy happened during "pentecost" And claims Peter, likewise believed it did. if that is so, then this prophecy concerning "on THAT day" would have likewise happened ON THAT DAY.
So your "second coming" theory once again gets the death blow......

Your copying/pasting silliness still doesn't impress me. I read BS like that before..as usual, things taken out of context and based on lies and misunderstandings of our Talmud and rewriting history.

Paul7
09-01-2011, 08:05
Two things wrong...As has been proven long ago in another thread jsus also predicted that there would also not be left standing one stone in Jerusalem itself,

Cite?

I'll just steal your answer, I read BS like that before...as usual, things taken out of context and based on lies and misnuderstandings of the NT.

Your copying/pasting silliness still doesn't impress me. I read BS like that before..as usual, things taken out of context and based on lies and misunderstandings of our Talmud and rewriting history.

Nice dodge. The strange happenings told by the Talmud and Josephus are just a coincidence, huh? Kind of like the Temple being destroyed after Jesus predicted it, I guess.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 08:08
Cite?

I'll just steal your answer, I read BS like that before...as usual, things taken out of context and based on lies and misnuderstandings of the NT.



Nice dodge. The strange happenings told by the Talmud and Josephus are just a coincidence, huh? Kind of like the Temple being destroyed after Jesus predicted it, I guess.



Cite?

Do you know how to use the search function??


Kind of like the Temple being destroyed after Jesus predicted it, I guess.

Considering the True Messiah is supposed to gather all the Diaspora Jews Back to their land and the Temple that is a dead ringer that he was NOT the Messiah

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 08:11
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3738/--destroy--christian-reason----temple--destroyed-


Perhaps you wanna read this discussion here. I will steal YOUR answer. Jews are always wrong about their own history and their own scriptures right?

Just a response to your "article"

Paul7
09-01-2011, 08:15
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3738/--destroy--christian-reason----temple--destroyed-


Perhaps you wanna read this discussion here. I will steal YOUR answer. Jews are always wrong about their own history and their own scriptures right?


Only the ones who don't believe in Jesus.

I'm not impressed, lots of Messianic Jews disagree with you. I note one Jewish participant on your thread admitted these things happened, but wrongly interprets it as a warning against following Jesus.

Paul7
09-01-2011, 08:18
Cite?

Do you know how to use the search function??


Kind of like the Temple being destroyed after Jesus predicted it, I guess.

Considering the True Messiah is supposed to gather all the Diaspora Jews Back to their land and the Temple that is a dead ringer that he was NOT the Messiah

Again, Second Coming events.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 08:19
I'm not impressed, lots of Messianic Jews disagree with you.



LOL thanks How did I know that would be your answer? Being that I KNOW you could not have possibly gone through that entire thread and done some background on what was discussed in um, 5 minutes LOL :rofl:
In other words like everyone else like you, you just close your ears and say "lah lah lah lah jsus jsus jsus" Like the gaggling geese in Orwell's Animal Farm.
Good job.

Do you really think I care WHO agrees with me?? Now were are back on the "joosies for jsus"

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 08:20
Again, Second Coming events.

Yet nowhere in the prophecy is a "second coming" mentioned. Again, just xtians making up things as they go along.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 08:24
Only the ones who don't believe in Jesus.

I note one Jewish participant on your thread admitted these things happened, but wrongly interprets it as a warning against following Jesus.

Nobody said these things didn't happen. But I did in fact steal your answer...He wrongly interprets his OWN SCRIPTURE and his OWN PEOPLE'S HISTORY, why us he wrong?? Well because centuries later some greek speaking heathens TOLD HIM SO OF COURSE!:rofl:

Paul7
09-01-2011, 09:50
In other words like everyone else like you, you just close your ears and say "lah lah lah lah jsus jsus jsus" Like the gaggling geese in Orwell's Animal Farm.
Good job.

Pot, meet kettle.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 10:02
Pot, meet kettle.


NO I don't just keep repeating mindless phrases over and over. I study the scriptures daily. I back up my claims.
OK smart guy, So then kindly answer my question. Since this Prophecy in Chapter 12 according to Peter claims it would all happen "ON THAT DAY"
which he claims was the 1st "pentecost" kindly tell me how this Prophecy which was to come to pass and rest on "all flesh" somehow 1: only ends up on a handful of people. ( according to Vic Hayes and "peter")
and 2: how on "that day" does it somehow even remotely give even a tiny hint of a second coming? Thousands of years later. Either Peter is wrong, or you are wrong. Which is it?

Paul7
09-01-2011, 10:07
LOL thanks How did I know that would be your answer? Being that I KNOW you could not have possibly gone through that entire thread and done some background on what was discussed in um, 5 minutes LOL :rofl:

Like you read my post on the Talmudic confirmation of the strange goings on at the time of Jesus' death?

Paul7
09-01-2011, 10:08
NO I don't just keep repeating mindless phrases over and over. I study the scriptures daily. I back up my claims.
OK smart guy, So then kindly answer my question. Since this Prophecy in Chapter 12 according to Peter claims it would all happen "ON THAT DAY"
which he claims was the 1st "pentecost" kindly tell me how this Prophecy which was to come to pass and rest on "all flesh" somehow 1: only ends up on a handful of people. ( according to Vic Hayes and "peter")
and 2: how on "that day" does it somehow even remotely give even a tiny hint of a second coming? Thousands of years later. Either Peter is wrong, or you are wrong. Which is it?

Give me the whole reference, not just Ch. 12.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 11:53
Like you read my post on the Talmudic confirmation of the strange goings on at the time of Jesus' death?



Didn't need to for two reason.
1: we are already well aware from our Talmud that there were "strange things going on" 200 years before him

2: this has already been tried before.

FifthFreedom
09-01-2011, 11:58
Give me the whole reference, not just Ch. 12.

I guess you need to start re-reading the thread. :whistling:

Vic Hays
09-01-2011, 12:21
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17849234][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17848884]


And yet still you keep avoiding. Which is ok, it shows everyone on this board that you can't even back up your own claims nor admit when you are wrong.

All you have been doing is dancing around refusing to acknowledge scripture or history.

You are just wasting my time. :deadhorse:

May God bless you. And I hope He will give you the Spirit of repentance.

Paul7
09-01-2011, 12:57
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17856638][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17849234]

All you have been doing is dancing around refusing to acknowledge scripture or history.

You are just wasting my time. :deadhorse:



If only I were as smart as you, my friend.

FifthFreedom
09-06-2011, 08:39
[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17856638][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17849234]

All you have been doing is dancing around refusing to acknowledge scripture or history.

You are just wasting my time. :deadhorse:



To use one of Paul7's favorite phrases of wisdom:

"pot, meet kettle"

in other words, when I ask you to actually quote chapter 12 that you claim as "proof" and I ask you to do it in it's entirety and in context, this all suddenly just becomes "a waste of time" i.e. You don't have an argument.

Vic Hays
09-06-2011, 12:38
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17857771][QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17856638]

To use one of Paul7's favorite phrases of wisdom:

"pot, meet kettle"

in other words, when I ask you to actually quote chapter 12 that you claim as "proof" and I ask you to do it in it's entirety and in context, this all suddenly just becomes "a waste of time" i.e. You don't have an argument.

There it is. I guess you don't have a Bible?


12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Chapter 13
13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.