Should Women be Ministers? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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achysklic
07-15-2011, 15:30
I thought it might be a nice change of pace to see the opinions of the members here on this touchy subject.

I think the funny thing is those that are usually against me with sway my way on this subject where as, those that usually sway my way will repel.

Ok Me personally I think according to scripture women are not aloud to be ministers.

hogfish
07-15-2011, 17:31
Interesting. :popcorn:

NMG26
07-15-2011, 17:54
Ok Me personally I think according to scripture women are not aloud to be ministers.


Times they have changed.

Women make excellent ministers.

The church I now attend has a woman misnister and she puts her whole heart into it. The proof of whether they should, is in the results of their ministry.

achysklic
07-15-2011, 18:21
Times they have changed.

Women make excellent ministers.

The church I now attend has a woman misnister and she puts her whole heart into it. The proof of whether they should, is in the results of their ministry.

Times may have changed however God never changes. Follow God and not wo-man

Vic Hays
07-15-2011, 18:33
God has in the past used women to lead in the highest of positions.

Deborah, Hulda, etc. An elder is not a priest any more than a regular member is a priest. There should be no problem with a woman as a minister. The exception is when it is not acceptable to the community around that area. We must avoid reproach against Christ even for reasons may be acceptable to God.
God is the one who bestows the spiritual gift of pastor. Some people think that the Church can confer this, but that is why we end up with so many corrupt hireling ministers.


3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

SPIN2010
07-15-2011, 18:33
The real shame is there is not a man that will step up to the job. As long as they are sending out the Gospel, I am all for it.

NMG26
07-15-2011, 18:35
Times may have changed however God never changes. Follow God and not wo-man


LOL

I don't follow my woman minister.

I do try to follow the God I know.

The Bible was written in a different culture, and time. It is time that we let those old taboos go.

Of course we can not expect fundamentalists to go for that. It takes all kinds. My sister still goes to the fundamentalist church I grew up in 35 years ago. Just saw my neice get married there by the same minister that was there 35 years ago. He was glad to see me.

rgregoryb
07-15-2011, 18:47
I thought it might be a nice change of pace to see the opinions of the members here on this touchy subject.

I think the funny thing is those that are usually against me with sway my way on this subject where as, those that usually sway my way will repel.

Ok Me personally I think according to scripture women are not aloud to be ministers.

so what is between your legs decides whether you can be a minister.....interesting.

(allowed not aloud)

alba666
07-15-2011, 19:55
God has in the past used women to lead in the highest of positions.

Deborah, Hulda, etc. An elder is not a priest any more than a regular member is a priest. There should be no problem with a woman as a minister. The exception is when it is not acceptable to the community around that area. We must avoid reproach against Christ even for reasons may be acceptable to God.
God is the one who bestows the spiritual gift of pastor. Some people think that the Church can confer this, but that is why we end up with so many corrupt hireling ministers.


3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

:agree:

sugarcreek
07-15-2011, 20:01
Paul thinks not...

achysklic
07-15-2011, 20:32
Wow seems like aot of personal opinions here and alot of ignoring what scripture actualy says. Remember the way that seems right to a man in the end is DEATH. Happy Sabbath all

rgregoryb
07-15-2011, 20:41
Wow seems like aot of personal opinions here and alot of ignoring what scripture actualy says. Remember the way that seems right to a man in the end is DEATH. Happy Sabbath all

Happy Saturday!!!!!


http://991.com/gallery_180x180/Black-Sabbath-Never-Say-Die-386440-991.jpg

NMG26
07-15-2011, 21:15
Wow seems like aot of personal opinions here and alot of ignoring what scripture actualy says. Remember the way that seems right to a man in the end is DEATH. Happy Sabbath all

Yeah certain sects of Christianity have trouble with the whole "personal opinion" thing. Can't think outside of the little tiny doctrinal box that has been given. When the water does not move it ends in stagnation and death.

We use to have revivals at that fundamentalis church I grew up in. I remember sitting in those services with those traveling revival teachers.....they had that nack for scaring you back to another stab at being perfect for God........

I'd rather find God in the freedom of personal opinion then die in those doctrinal dungeons that force all into the same mold.

Free your mind and the rest will follow.

Markasaurus
07-15-2011, 22:58
Why not? Personally i've talked to one or two lady preachers and they were ok by me. I'd have no problem with this at all, don't understand why anybody would in this day and age.

LazyAce
07-16-2011, 06:44
I have heard a lot of good & bad ministers. Some were men and some were women. It is how you preach the bible that matters, not what sex you are. There are a lot of TV preachers that should be banned from preaching as all they are after is the money and fame. Most could care less about the people they are preaching to. Everyone has their own outlook on this and should make up their own minds on how to deal with it.

achysklic
07-16-2011, 07:16
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.

This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

achysklic
07-16-2011, 07:19
In the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women. Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

God's word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife. A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female. Whether anyone likes it or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what the Bible teaches.

Vic Hays
07-16-2011, 09:09
In the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women. Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

God's word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife. A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female. Whether anyone likes it or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what the Bible teaches.

Do you think a pastor is a modern day priest?

The difference I see between our two views is that I allow God to make the decisions of who He will give the spiritual gift of pastor to. You would make a big fuss if God chose a woman. Do you have a self esteem problem?

Those who need a priest other than Jesus are control types. If you had your way in the time of the judges Deborah would not have had the office of judge. She was chosen by God to the highest spiritual office in Israel.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

g22od
07-16-2011, 09:11
No and only because they don't look sexy with the priest collar thing on.

g22od
07-16-2011, 09:12
I thought it might be a nice change of pace to see the opinions of the members here on this touchy subject.

I think the funny thing is those that are usually against me with sway my way on this subject where as, those that usually sway my way will repel.

Ok Me personally I think according to scripture women are not aloud to be ministers.
What if they're really quiet?

muscogee
07-16-2011, 10:26
If you want to be practical and rational, the answer is yes. If you believe the Bible, the answer is no.

rgregoryb
07-16-2011, 10:59
No and only because they don't look sexy with the priest collar thing on.

What if that is all they have on?

HexHead
07-16-2011, 11:10
Minister? Yes
Catholic priest? No

And queers shouldn't be ministers either.

Kingarthurhk
07-16-2011, 11:50
God calls whom God calls. The bible is replete with examples of women prophetesses.

Prophetesses



General scriptures concerning
Ezekiel 13:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+13:17); Joel 2:28,29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joe+2:28,29)
Miriam
Exodus 15:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+15:20)
Deborah
Judges 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jud+4:4)
Huldah
2 Kings 22:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ki+22:14)
Noadiah
Nehemiah 6:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ne+6:14)
Isaiah’s wife
Isaiah 8:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+8:3)
Elizabeth
Luke 1:41-45 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+1:41-45)
Anna
Luke 2:36-38 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+2:36-38)
Daughters of Philip
Acts 21:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:9)

achysklic
07-16-2011, 12:14
Do you think a pastor is a modern day priest?

The difference I see between our two views is that I allow God to make the decisions of who He will give the spiritual gift of pastor to. You would make a big fuss if God chose a woman. Do you have a self esteem problem?

Those who need a priest other than Jesus are control types. If you had your way in the time of the judges Deborah would not have had the office of judge. She was chosen by God to the highest spiritual office in Israel.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


Yes a pastor or minister still hold simular offices as a priest.

Deborah was a prophetess who ruled Israel.Judges 4:4: “And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.” Because men would not assume their responsibilities, God raised up and used a woman. God will put a woman in charge when men are lazy and cowardly. Anytime the leadership of men is dispensed with and women rule over men, it is a judgment. Isa.3:12 “As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.” Deborah brought shame to the Israelite men as they had fear so that none dared to assume leadership. Deborah shamed Barak, the military commander of Israel’s army, for his failure to assume the leadership God had given him, he refused to advance against Sisera without her presence and commanding influence (Judges 4:8). After she mediated God’s command to him to join battle with Sisera, commander of the Canaanite army, Barak replies: “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” Deborah responded, “Very well...I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this (full of fear) the honor will not be yours, the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman.” The LORD raised up this woman, who was full of faith, to disgrace the men of Israel for their lack of faith, because it was not appropriate for unfaithful men to take the leadership of the nation.

Vic Gods word is plain on the role of women in the church. I am not suprised though that you go against this. Women can in a church teach the children and other women, they cannot teach over the men.

Take Ellen White..she went against Gods word placed herself in a position over Men in the church and the end result was she made many false prophecies proving she was a fraud. By the bible's standards she should have been thrown out after the first failed prophecy. She was another Harold Camping and those that follow her will suffer when they stand before God.

The Bible isn't something you and insert your own opinion on and say hey that was then this is now. God never changes and it oiffends Him when people think He does.

achysklic
07-16-2011, 12:15
God calls whom God calls. The bible is replete with examples of women prophetesses.

Prophetesses



General scriptures concerning
Ezekiel 13:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+13:17); Joel 2:28,29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joe+2:28,29)
Miriam
Exodus 15:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+15:20)
Deborah
Judges 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jud+4:4)
Huldah
2 Kings 22:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ki+22:14)
Noadiah
Nehemiah 6:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ne+6:14)
Isaiah’s wife
Isaiah 8:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+8:3)
Elizabeth
Luke 1:41-45 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+1:41-45)
Anna
Luke 2:36-38 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+2:36-38)
Daughters of Philip
Acts 21:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:9)


Women can be prophetesses, however they cannot be in a position of leadership within the church. Huge difference!

A woman can however be a deaconess.

When Deacons were first appointed in the church in Acts 6:2-3, they were not to teach but to serve the people thus allowing the elders to study and teach the Word.

Kingarthurhk
07-16-2011, 12:53
Women can be prophetesses, however they cannot be in a position of leadership within the church. Huge difference!

A woman can however be a deaconess.

When Deacons were first appointed in the church in Acts 6:2-3, they were not to teach but to serve the people thus allowing the elders to study and teach the Word.

That is an interesting concept. I have been an ordained deacon for 20 years. Throughout the years and within about 4 churchses I can think I of I regularly gave sermons. I am not afraid of public speaking, and I sit down and write out my sermons (with scriptural back up of course) in advance. God gave me the talent, and I use it when called. So, if there were a prohibition against preaching deacons, I think they might have let me know that my services weren't valued or needed. The last church I was in, I was ordained a Co-Leader (it was a group/company-rather small). I am now in a larger church (more programs for the children), and have been called to serve at the podium once and awhile; but, not to preach yet. If they ask, I will. If they don't, I won't

If I had the time, money, and resources, I would love to go on a missionary tour. However, that will need to wait until retirement, if the world is still around then.

ricklee4570
07-16-2011, 12:57
I think it is pretty clear in Timothy that a woman shall not hold authority over man in church.

NMG26
07-16-2011, 15:19
If you want to be practical and rational, the answer is yes. If you believe the Bible, the answer is no.

As simple as that.

A took me a while to feel fine with disagreeing with the Bible. Now that I am able, I love the freedom.

g22od
07-16-2011, 16:06
What if that is all they have on?
:rofl: Yep, that'd cross into sexy territory.

achysklic
07-16-2011, 17:00
As simple as that.

A took me a while to feel fine with disagreeing with the Bible. Now that I am able, I love the freedom.

Romans 8:<SUP id=en-KJV-28123 class=versenum>6</SUP>For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

<SUP id=en-KJV-28124 class=versenum>7</SUP>Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. <SUP id=en-KJV-28125 class=versenum>8</SUP>So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Kingarthurhk
07-16-2011, 17:54
:rofl: Yep, that'd cross into sexy territory.

Careful what you wish for:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1bQUgeeFs8U/TAxD4LnEbfI/AAAAAAAAFTw/v_1raI2pT4g/Irja%20Askola%20Bishop%20of%20Helsinki.jpg

rgregoryb
07-16-2011, 17:59
Careful what you wish for:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1bQUgeeFs8U/TAxD4LnEbfI/AAAAAAAAFTw/v_1raI2pT4g/Irja%20Askola%20Bishop%20of%20Helsinki.jpg

That was uncalled for..........................:wow:

muscogee
07-17-2011, 06:17
Romans 8:<SUP id=en-KJV-28123 class=versenum>6</SUP>For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

<SUP id=en-KJV-28124 class=versenum>7</SUP>Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. <SUP id=en-KJV-28125 class=versenum>8</SUP>So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If it's in the Bible then it must be true. :upeyes:

achysklic
07-17-2011, 07:17
If it's in the Bible then it must be true. :upeyes:

Exactly!

muscogee
07-17-2011, 08:09
Exactly!

A big hand came out of the sky and wrote the Bible.

NMG26
07-17-2011, 08:28
Romans 8:<SUP id=en-KJV-28123 class=versenum>6</SUP>For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

<SUP id=en-KJV-28124 class=versenum>7</SUP>Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. <SUP id=en-KJV-28125 class=versenum>8</SUP>So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I like Paul. I have life and peace so I must be spiritually minded. Just because it is in the Bible does not mean it is a good thing to throw at people.

I am of the Spirit. I am pleasing to God. Life and peace are mine. And women make just as good of ministers as men.

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 08:34
Women can be prophetesses, however they cannot be in a position of leadership within the church. Huge difference!



I learned to allow God to do what He wants.

Deborah was not a deaconess, she was the judge. That was the highest position of leadership.

achysklic
07-17-2011, 16:18
I learned to allow God to do what He wants.

Deborah was not a deaconess, she was the judge. That was the highest position of leadership.

Vic I'll repost this,however I am beginning to think you don't read the majority of the stuff I post. :(

Deborah was a prophetess who ruled Israel.Judges 4:4: “And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.” Because men would not assume their responsibilities, God raised up and used a woman. God will put a woman in charge when men are lazy and cowardly. Anytime the leadership of men is dispensed with and women rule over men, it is a judgment. Isa.3:12 “As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths.” Deborah brought shame to the Israelite men as they had fear so that none dared to assume leadership. Deborah shamed Barak, the military commander of Israel’s army, for his failure to assume the leadership God had given him, he refused to advance against Sisera without her presence and commanding influence (Judges 4:8). After she mediated God’s command to him to join battle with Sisera, commander of the Canaanite army, Barak replies: “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” Deborah responded, “Very well...I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this (full of fear) the honor will not be yours, the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman.” The LORD raised up this woman, who was full of faith, to disgrace the men of Israel for their lack of faith, because it was not appropriate for unfaithful men to take the leadership of the nation.

"I learned to allow God to do what He wants"
So Vic you think God wants women to be ministers and then allows for it to be printed in scripture that they are not to teach in church?

Come on now...........Don't make God look wishy washy

Paul7
07-17-2011, 16:49
No, they should not be ministers. The Bible also calls for the man to be the head of the home. Is it also alright for someone to say that their home is different, a woman will run it?

There were women in leadership positions in Judges, but that group of people had a lot of problems and isn't necessarily a role model.

It is no wonder with Christians discarding God's teachings on male pastors/priests and divorce, that gays also want to get in on the act. All are are against God's standards.

Paul7
07-17-2011, 16:52
A big hand came out of the sky and wrote the Bible.

Wow, that really added a lot to the thread.

muscogee
07-17-2011, 17:20
Wow, that really added a lot to the thread.

Well where did it come from? Someone's imagination?

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 17:23
because it was not appropriate for unfaithful men to take the leadership of the nation.

"I learned to allow God to do what He wants"
So Vic you think God wants women to be ministers and then allows for it to be printed in scripture that they are not to teach in church?

Come on now...........Don't make God look wishy washy

Some things are more ambiguous than they seem. A bishop or deacon is supposed to be the husband of one wife and yet, that is not an absolute. Paul says it is ok to be single. So we see here that this is a guideline not an absolute.

If the occasion arises that there is only a faithful woman where there should be a man I personally don't have anything against God giving that spiritual gift to a faithful woman.

God is not wishy washy and he is not legalistic either.

A prophet is a teacher wether they are male or female. Prophecy is teaching. Do you think it is inappropriate for a female prophet to address the Church?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

NMG26
07-17-2011, 17:24
Well where did it come from? Someone's imagination?

Yeah man!

It come from us.

They where different back then. Culture has changed and we have evolved. Back then a woman could not be a minister. Now they can. Times they have a changed........for the better.

achysklic
07-17-2011, 17:35
Some things are more ambiguous than they seem. A bishop or deacon is supposed to be the husband of one wife and yet, that is not an absolute. Paul says it is ok to be single. So we see here that this is a guideline not an absolute.

If the occasion arises that there is only a faithful woman where there should be a man I personally don't have anything against God giving that spiritual gift to a faithful woman.

God is not wishy washy and he is not legalistic either.

A prophet is a teacher wether they are male or female. Prophecy is teaching. Do you think it is inappropriate for a female prophet to address the Church?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

I have no problem with women being a prophet, the Bible teaches this, however being a prophet is by no means the same as being a pastor(head of the church).

The Bible is clear on this as well.
Is prophecy teaching in a leadership role? Ofcourse not!

Vic Hays
07-17-2011, 21:32
I have no problem with women being a prophet, the Bible teaches this, however being a prophet is by no means the same as being a pastor(head of the church).

The Bible is clear on this as well.
Is prophecy teaching in a leadership role? Ofcourse not!

So you are saying that you will not let God give a godly woman the gift of pastor?

http://www.hyvethwilliamsministries.org/contentpages.aspx?parentnavigationid=1397&viewcontentpageguid=c909c9a5-5e0e-4fd4-8405-6adfd15f6eb2

achysklic
07-18-2011, 03:35
So you are saying that you will not let God give a godly woman the gift of pastor?

http://www.hyvethwilliamsministries.org/contentpages.aspx?parentnavigationid=1397&viewcontentpageguid=c909c9a5-5e0e-4fd4-8405-6adfd15f6eb2

No I don't belioeve He would. God would not go to the trouble to inspire it to be written in scripture only to have modern day women libbers say God may have been wrong!

achysklic
07-18-2011, 05:40
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Titus%202.3-5)). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

g22od
07-18-2011, 10:47
I just prayed for guidance. God says it's ok for women to lead congregations. End of discussion.

Vic Hays
07-18-2011, 10:58
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Titus%202.3-5)). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

Where is this ordained? Are you sure you are interpreting this correctly? Maybe what you are referring to is family relationships.

achysklic
07-18-2011, 11:50
Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Vic Hays
07-18-2011, 18:39
Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

So this is the answer? It doesn't say that a woman cannot be a pastor. It just says that wives should submit to their own husbands.

achysklic
07-19-2011, 04:57
So this is the answer? It doesn't say that a woman cannot be a pastor. It just says that wives should submit to their own husbands.

No it wasn't a answer to any question, I was just posting it to show what roles women can do.

This confirms even more that you haven't read half of what I posted. I suggest going back and reading all the countless verses I quoted proving women are not to teach in the Church.

Eve is the reason women are not to have authority over men, or to teach them. I didn't make the rules God did, take it up with Him.

1Tim 2:<SUP id=en-KJV-29728 class=versenum>11</SUP>Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

<SUP id=en-KJV-29729 class=versenum>12</SUP>But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29730 class=versenum>13</SUP>For Adam was first formed, then Eve. <SUP id=en-KJV-29731 class=versenum>14</SUP>And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Vic Hays
07-19-2011, 10:22
No it wasn't a answer to any question, I was just posting it to show what roles women can do.

This confirms even more that you haven't read half of what I posted. I suggest going back and reading all the countless verses I quoted proving women are not to teach in the Church.

Eve is the reason women are not to have authority over men, or to teach them. I didn't make the rules God did, take it up with Him.

1Tim 2:<SUP id=en-KJV-29728 class=versenum>11</SUP>Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

<SUP id=en-KJV-29729 class=versenum>12</SUP>But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29730 class=versenum>13</SUP>For Adam was first formed, then Eve. <SUP id=en-KJV-29731 class=versenum>14</SUP>And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

You are overstating "countless". The verses you used here refer to how men and women are to act in the context of family not church. Adam and Eve were a family.

Paul mentions taking up an offering and a lot of people instantly assume he is talking about a church meeting on Sunday. You seem to be doing the same with those verses. None of them say that a woman cannot teach or lead. They only say that a woman should not have authority over her husband. There is already precedent in the Bible where at time women do lead.

achysklic
07-19-2011, 11:02
You are overstating "countless". The verses you used here refer to how men and women are to act in the context of family not church. Adam and Eve were a family.

Paul mentions taking up an offering and a lot of people instantly assume he is talking about a church meeting on Sunday. You seem to be doing the same with those verses. None of them say that a woman cannot teach or lead. They only say that a woman should not have authority over her husband. There is already precedent in the Bible where at time women do lead.

Vic,Why do you ignore what scripture actually says? You act like it isn't even there. I'll show you once again ok. Pay attention to the word teach in verse 12 since you claim it isn't in there.

1 Timothy 2:<SUP>11</SUP>Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29729 class=versenum>12</SUP>But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Corinthians 14:

<SUP id=en-KJV-28713 class=versenum>34</SUP>Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. <SUP id=en-KJV-28714 class=versenum>35</SUP>And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Notice Vic, It's Gods LAW, not something man made up!

Vic Hays
07-20-2011, 10:59
Vic,Why do you ignore what scripture actually says? You act like it isn't even there. I'll show you once again ok. Pay attention to the word teach in verse 12 since you claim it isn't in there.

1 Timothy 2:<SUP>11</SUP>Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29729 class=versenum>12</SUP>But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Corinthians 14:

<SUP id=en-KJV-28713 class=versenum>34</SUP>Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. <SUP id=en-KJV-28714 class=versenum>35</SUP>And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Notice Vic, It's Gods LAW, not something man made up!

:wavey: Friend achysklic

You are putting too much achysklic into your interpretation. Think about this a minute. You are saying that it is God's law that a woman does not teach or have authority? Where is this written in God's law? They are commanded to be under obedience where and to whom?

The answer is that they are supposed to be in submission to their husbands.

The context of I Corinthians 14 is a disorderly church with a bunch of people who were babbling in a bunch of languages. Apparently there were a bunch of disorderly women causing disorder during the worship and teaching meetings. Paul is trying to restore order in the Corinthian church. He is not laying down the law as to who may have authority and who may not as far as gender.

The Bible has already laid out who may have authority and who may not. Deborah had authority. God is not contradicting himself by saying that it is against the law for a woman that He has chosen to have authority in the Church.

A married woman is to submit herself to her husband and the husband is to submit himself to his wife by giving himself for her.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

achysklic
07-20-2011, 11:12
Vic you seem to reject 1corth it is plain about women teaching in churches. You keep adding your interpetation on it.. As for Debrah i already addressed that please go back. But to sum it upshe was never teaching in church she was a leafer only cos the men refused. She never was a pastor though. Also read where it says its against the law foe women to speak .. God makes the laws man tries to twist them to suit thier wants.

Vic Hays
07-20-2011, 11:27
Vic you seem to reject 1corth it is plain about women teaching in churches. You keep adding your interpetation on it.. As for Debrah i already addressed that please go back. But to sum it upshe was never teaching in church she was a leafer only cos the men refused. She never was a pastor though. Also read where it says its against the law foe women to speak .. God makes the laws man tries to twist them to suit thier wants.

Are you saying that God set Deborah up as the leader and authority over Israel in violation of His own law?

achysklic
07-20-2011, 13:10
Are you saying that God set Deborah up as the leader and authority over Israel in violation of His own law?

Vic, a women although not Gods first choice can be a leader.,However Gods forbids women to teach in Church. This is plain Vic, why are you having so much trouble seeing it?

Women can be prophets, deasonesses, they can't be pastors. I think you have a problem telling the differences.

Vic Hays
07-20-2011, 17:10
Vic, a women although not Gods first choice can be a leader.,However Gods forbids women to teach in Church. This is plain Vic, why are you having so much trouble seeing it?

Women can be prophets, deasonesses, they can't be pastors. I think you have a problem telling the differences.

Prophets don't teach in Church? Deacons don't teach in Church?

I Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

cs133atom
07-20-2011, 17:37
It's very clear in 1 Timothy 2:7-15(KJV) as follows:

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8 I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Women are urged to modesty in dress and behavior

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

And so I don't have to argue further about this:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

We will be Biblically not politically correct, I run my home.

Enjoy!

Brother Craig

AA#5
07-20-2011, 17:39
Women ministers would probably be safer than priests around young boys.

Paul7
07-22-2011, 07:57
Well where did it come from? Someone's imagination?

It was written by men, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



"This harmony exists in spite of the fact that it was written over a 1600-year span, during 60 generations, and by more than 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars, and others. The Bible was written in a variety of places and customs, during times of war and peace, on three continents (Africa, Asia, and Europe), in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek). Yet, when the Bible is analyzed as a whole, it speaks with amazing unity and harmony about hundreds of controversial subjects about which there are hundreds of opposing opinions."

Dennis Crawford

Brucev
07-22-2011, 08:56
O.K.... I'll jump in. From a Christian perspective, there is no reason for women to be excluded from the ministry. In the O.T., women were used of God as judges and prophets. In the N.T. era, women were prophets. Paul specifically commends Phoebe (Rom. 16:1) as a deacon. He uses the same exact precise word that he uses in writing to Timothy describing the qualifications of a deacon. He is not describing some sort of clerical/semi-clerical quasi-offical/offical role. He is describing what the deacon was in the life of the early primitive N.T. Church. Whatever he said Timothy was to look for is what he said Phoebe was and was the reason he commended her to the believers at Rome. That Jesus did not have women apostles is not relevant. If he had wanted to exclude women, he would have excluded women. He did not. Christian pastors are not priest after the order of Aaron. We are not in any way priest except as is true of all believers who comprise the priesthood of believers. If I or someone else does not like this, well, we have to get over it. I was not raised in a denomination that affirmed a genuine priesthood of believers, male and female. I did not come to this position due to educational process. I came to this decision and position as a result of doing studies in my Greek New Testament as I was preaching a Sunday evening study of Romans. For me it was not a easy decision as I was not by background and training open to it. The only reason I came to it was by the clear witness of Scripture. I cannot now see how I can hold any other position, nor would I want to. I take no umbrage with those who hold a different position. I do hold this position without apology. Sincerely. bruce.

Just one further thought. As to women teaching men... give some thought to Apollos. He was a gifted evangelist. But in much he was ignorant. In Acts 18:24-28 Apollos is described as a gifted evangelist who knew only the baptism of John. Priscilla and Aquila listened to him and then taught him the "Way of God more accurately." His ministry was greatly benefited by their teaching. Please note that in Greek, word order is very important. In the seven instances where this couple are mentioned, Priscilla's name comes first before her husband. Given that most scholars consider the order of names in the list of apostles, etc. to reflect role/status, etc., it is contrary to common sense and the normal rules of exegesis to ignore the fact that Priscilla's name is mentioned in the vast majority of references. There is no reason to think that only Aquila did the teaching. Nor were they teaching the equivalent of a Sunday School class for children. Apollos was described as a gifted evangelist who needed to be instructed in theology. Together Priscilla and Aquila were used of God to teach help him come to a more mature understanding of Christian theology. Some cite Paul's instruction to the Corinthians and Timothy as normative for the primitive N.T. era Church. From this reference and from the fact that Phoebe most certainly exercised a significant leadership role in the Church at Censerea, it is not possible to assert uniformly that women were not used of God as leaders in the life and ministry of the primitive N.T. era Church. The cultural preference of male authority common to the Greco-Roman world and the taboos of Judaism that were influential in the early Church would have made leadership by women not common. I must as that I never had a problem with women leading in teaching in Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, various music ministries, etc. In these ministries boys and girls and men and women were involved. I never heard a woman preach till I was a grown man married and graduated from seminary. It is still something I do not well receive. But I cannot legitimately argue that it is due to any grounding in Scripture. It boils down to the simple fact that I do not like, care for, enjoy, etc. women preaching. It is as simple as that. I will not mask my less than enthusiastic response to women preaching by saying that I genuinely think they are prohibited from preaching, teaching, etc. simply because they are women. The N.T. does not support such an exclusive perspective. Again, if some disagree, that is fine. I will not argue over what I consider a point of doctrine that is not critical to salvation. We will never all agree on every point of doctrine regarding practice. Sincerely. bruce.