Street Fights [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Sam Spade
07-20-2011, 09:14
http://www.break.com/index/crazy-street-fight-in-vegas-2085114#


This is what a street fight looks like. Not a "mugging", not a "beat down", but a street fight. So...

Should you get involved? If so, how? Can you tell the aggressors from the victims? What if you came in to the middle of things? What if you came in late and saw one of the "ladies" taking a few lumps?

If you were set upon in such a fashion, could you execute your 1.5s draw from concealment? Could you retain control of the weapon after you did? Do you have empty-hand skills to fill the gap? If your empty-hand skills center on a grappling art, will they serve in the 5:1 pile?

None of these players is very good at fighting, BTW. How might things change (for you) if they were?

"Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt." What other questions should we be asking ourselves?

David Armstrong
07-20-2011, 09:26
A pretty good example of you don't always know who all the players are and who is waiting to attack you. So I'd suggest the question of "Is this the only assailant or does he have friends I haven't ID'd?"

John Rambo
07-20-2011, 09:30
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.

rohanreginald
07-20-2011, 09:32
I don't want to get mixed up in some gang rivalry. However, I have stepped in to help a guy and his wife who were with two kids while being assaulted.

That was messed up I couldn't tell who was on whose side. No way would I get involved in that.

brandrum
07-20-2011, 09:38
I try my best to not put myself in situations where something like that could be a possible outcome.

morrismma
07-20-2011, 09:47
I thank you have to help the guy in red shorts. He was running a way got tripped up. Then he was getting beat on by 4 people. If the other guy did not get involved they could of hurt the red shorts guy. It turned out good though guy in white camo shorts got knocked out with that last kick. Maybe he learned his lesson.

LSUAdman
07-20-2011, 09:47
In this case, I say it's better to stay out of it. If you have a camera or video device, record the event, call the authorities and present them the evidence. Chances are that the kids in the above video are just thugs being crazy, but what if it were not?

The proof on your video could help convict the actual assailant. But when it comes to drawing or getting involved, I vote stay out of it. No way to know what is really going on.

fuzzy03cls
07-20-2011, 09:53
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.

Especially if your carrying. Any of them could have gotten your gun & used it or you may have felt the need to draw even though a weapon was not produced & you may be in trouble.

If anything call 911.

RMD
07-20-2011, 09:57
Red shorts guy was definitely retreating at the beginning of the video...but from what?

Two guys/two girls on one wasn't cool, but the video doesn't show why he was running in the first place.

tarheeltrav
07-20-2011, 10:02
Wow that was a crazy "fight". I agree with staying out of it. Especially if you don't know the people or why they're even fighting. I've seen people catch the wrong end, really trying to be good samaritans and break up a fight. But little did they know...

Red shorts could have been anybody, could have had it coming. Or not. Who knows? Not me. I would have just sidelined, recorded the video, and then showed it to my friends!

Travclem
07-20-2011, 10:03
That was the weakest fight I've ever seen.

James Dean
07-20-2011, 10:25
Call 911. be a good witness

Unistat
07-20-2011, 10:40
Call 911. be a good witness

This times a million.

Mister_Beefy
07-20-2011, 10:47
as the situation unfolded in the video, no way I would get involved.

however if once the guy was unconscious on the pavement if someone started stomping on his head or lifted a heavy object to strike him, I would intervene.

fine by me if some punks want to tussle, but I won't sit back and watch a murder.

GeorgiaRedfish
07-20-2011, 10:54
People are disgusting, what I would do? Call the police, and probably record if I thought about it for evidence. I wouldn't be enjoying it as much as the cameraman that's for sure.

Sam Spade
07-20-2011, 11:39
Lots of comments on staying out of it, and that's fine.

Now, what if the attack was brought against you? Where are you justified in drawing/shooting? Where are you actually capable of drawing? Do you have skills to cover the physical end of things? Could you protect your weapon--either in or out of the holster--if you're down on the pavement like that? Does your carry method help or hinder you when trying to escape or when in that effed-up tangle?

GeorgiaRedfish
07-20-2011, 11:45
Now, what if the attack was brought against you? I'd draw in that situation, 5 on 1 is deadly force in my opinion, and I know I could articulate that in court.



Where are you justified in drawing/shooting? Drawing YES, shooting depends on their actions after my weapon is drawn.
Where are you actually capable of drawing?There are many barriers there that I hope I would have the foresight to get behind before the fight came to me, and if I didn't have the foresight I am drawing regardless.
Do you have skills to cover the physical end of things? I am not trained in any hand to hand fighting, but I used to fight Fed LEO's in my past job, and many times it took multiple guys to get me to give up so I am confident.
Could you protect your weapon--either in or out of the holster--if you're down on the pavement like that? Yes as a part of my old job I picked up many weapon retention techniques.
Does your carry method help or hinder you when trying to escape or when in that effed-up tangle? Me carrying concealed would probably hinder more in that situation than OC, but I can still draw fast enough before they close the reactionary gap (hopefully).

kensteele
07-20-2011, 12:15
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.

+1000

For this particular situation based on seeing what little we saw, coming into the middle of it, don't know anyone involved. Not all situations but this one, yes: don't get involved.

My personal answer is I would have no problem with turning my head and walking away in the other direction without even looking back or even calling the police. I don't get involved in street gang fighting.

Again, not my answer for everything in life, but for these two minutes, this is all you are going to get from kensteele.

Edit: It was entertaining. The red shorts delivered the knockout kick to the camo white shorts at the very end; it was total retaliation since in the very beginning of the video, the red shorts he is running away (for unknown reasons) and he is chased and first grabbed and detained by the camo white shorts. Camo white shorts took a pretty good blow earlier as well. Camo white shorts got the worst of it, red shorts got off relatively unscathed despite the 5-on-1.

Warp
07-20-2011, 12:51
If I witness the guy running away, getting jumped by multiple guys and then getting beat while laying on the ground I will probably do something. That **** really ****ing pisses me off. Draw pistol in strong side hand and Fox OC in off side hand and give verbal commands. Hope they scatter or get distracted by me enough the guy on the ground isn't going to get maimed/killed. Use the OC on anybody that turns towards me. If they ignore me use the OC on the pile (stream pattern, hope it has good range!). Use the firearm to defend myself if necessary. Hesitate to use firearm in defense of the guy on the ground, but if doing so will save his life (say he goes unconcious, is getting kicked in the head, etc) I just might. Try to put my back to a wall and keep my head on a swivel. Maybe ask the bystanders WTF is going on initially.

Or maybe not intervene, especially if I am not by myself.

If for some reason multiple guys are chasing me down I very well may draw. As we know and as the video shows it only takes a second or two to get knocked down and piled on and then you are not only in a very dangerous situation where drawing and firing will be very difficult/maybe not possible but you also stand the chance of losing control of your firearm. It is far too easy to grab a pistol out of a typical open top zero retention (other than a little friction) IWB concealment holster. Or get your head kicked in.


Edit: And I would prefer to be carrying openly. I won't pretend as though, should somebody get close enough to be hands on, and especially should I wind up on the ground against multiple attackers, my IWB holstered firearm will remain a secret. Thus I would MUCH rather have the better retention that goes with an OWB holster as well as the quicker draw (and easier one handed draw)

wnr700
07-20-2011, 14:47
Given this sceanrio just exploding and not knowing if Red Shorts is really the victim, I'm just a witness or moving toward safety.

If it were an attack on me or my wife, then I'm probably drawing if I can.

In the Tae Kwon Do classes , generally 60 seconds of intense sparring, fighting, kicking leaves me completely gassed. I'm in decent shape for 45.

I've seen healthy, physically fit teenagers gassed in two minutes.

Without the other guy ambushing the mob, red shorts was in big trouble.

Add to it that I'm diabetic, with a touch of arthritis in my feet and ankle. Out running the mob is unlikely. Too damn old to fight.

Being bum rushed and given the crowded street, drawing a gun is going to be problematic.

I know enough TKD to possibly survive one on one, but not even a grand master could take on five without some serious issues.

If I carried OC then maybe a wide blast to cover my track, slashing and jammming the Kubaton stick/keys, eye gouging, throat, neck, and other tender spots are my target.

Honestly, I'm too old and not in the mood, and likely would try to maim or kill the closest one involved.

James Dean
07-20-2011, 15:19
Lots of comments on staying out of it, and that's fine.

Now, what if the attack was brought against you? Where are you justified in drawing/shooting? Where are you actually capable of drawing? Do you have skills to cover the physical end of things? Could you protect your weapon--either in or out of the holster--if you're down on the pavement like that? Does your carry method help or hinder you when trying to escape or when in that effed-up tangle?
I don't think I would have that problem. I'm one of the most
polite person you could meet. Concealed carry to me means to me the other guy should not know I have a weapon, even in a fight unless I draw it. Your best bet is not to get into altercations in the first place. Know when to walk away. IMO its the police who are paid to break up fights not CCL holders.

AA#5
07-20-2011, 15:30
One bystander got it right when he said "Shouldn't be jumpin' people, man."

No, I would not get involved in something like that (at my age) other than calling police. But, luckily, for the victim, the guy in tan shorts got involved.

If I were the victim, yes, I'd draw & if that didn't do it, I'd shoot.

Gunnut 45/454
07-20-2011, 16:40
Nope I wouldn't have got involved as the two at the end were the ones that started the fight- and then got there crap handed to them! It was four on one- no weapons ! Sit back call LEO's wait for them! Be a good witness. Guy in red shirt even though he was the inital one assualted will go to jail for assualt as well for the kick to the head! Of course the two girls will walk they always do!:whistling:

Deaf Smith
07-20-2011, 17:21
What we don't know is WHY there was a fight.

But if I was walking by and saw this I'd get some popcorn and a coke. I mean I don't have a dog in that fight so why should I intervene?

I'd be on alert in case they came toward me or my missus, but no there would not be a 1.5 second draw, cause the gun would already be in my hand. For you see there is already a disparancy of force due to numbers so I would not dick around with H2H, even if that is my hobby.

Deaf

Bren
07-20-2011, 17:27
Why get involved? That hardly qualifies as a fight. I don't see any emergency need to defend anybody. Was there actually some spanking going on?:rofl:

If there was clearly an innocent victim, sure. If there was somebody about to get killed, sure. Some slapping and wrestling in a parking lot? Who cares?

Calico Jack
07-20-2011, 17:46
Seriously though, why was that guy with the long hair wearing a bikini top?

Mayhem like Me
07-20-2011, 17:49
dude at the end could have been killed by that kick to the head...Just FYI hardly just slapping and wrestling

maxniman
07-20-2011, 17:55
:rofl:white trash is always good for a laugh

Defender77
07-20-2011, 17:56
dude at the end could have been killed by that kick to the head...Just FYI hardly just slapping and wrestling


That was deadly force.

steveksux
07-20-2011, 18:09
No way I'd get involved, you don't know who on the sidelines is friend of whom that's going to blindside you when you try to intervene.

If I'm the guy at the bottom of the pile, all bets are off you have disparity of force and a couple kicks to the head are awfully likely if they get a clear shot, and that's deadly force.. The last thing I'm going to do is draw the gun, too close too easy to grab. I'm aiming for anything vulnerable with my fists, fingers, elbows, knees. If I can draw a weapon it'll be a knife. If I have a hand on the gun it'll be to keep it in the holster.

Randy

rahrah12
07-20-2011, 18:17
-The initial 5 on 1 I try to break up

-after his buddies came I leave it alone

-the dude that got kicked...I wouldn't let anything else happen to him

bug
07-20-2011, 18:38
http://www.break.com/index/crazy-street-fight-in-vegas-2085114#


This is what a street fight looks like. Not a "mugging", not a "beat down", but a street fight. So...
Seen a lot in my time.

Should you get involved? If so, how? Can you tell the aggressors from the victims? What if you came in to the middle of things? What if you came in late and saw one of the "ladies" taking a few lumps?
NO! Be a good witness call the cops tell them you think someone might get killed this seems to speed there response around here.

If you were set upon in such a fashion, could you execute your 1.5s draw from concealment? Could you retain control of the weapon after you did? Do you have empty-hand skills to fill the gap? If your empty-hand skills center on a grappling art, will they serve in the 5:1 pile?
1 Not sure on the draw will try it this weekend and have a few friends attack me I will of course have a fake blue gun
2 Yes i could retain the gun I practice this often.
3 I have been in a 5 to 1 fight a few times What I did was Keep moving away from them and stay on your/my feet at all costs. You cant win a fight against 5 people it is just not going to happen. Best advice run forest run!


None of these players is very good at fighting, BTW. How might things change (for you) if they were?
If they are for example All male and good at fighting you will more than likely be at there mercy! best advice dont pick a fight or go down that road you never know how many friends they have with them

"Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt." What other questions should we be asking ourselves?

would you make the poor choice he did kicking the guy in the face after it was over you could leave at that point, but he came back and kicked him in the face.
He should have just left would your/my adrenaline, bravado, pride, get in the way of you making a good choice.

barstoolguru
07-20-2011, 19:23
flash mob ..like mas abooy says " when in a flash mob all are guilty" ....shoot the punks.... when you kick a man in his face when he is down that looks like felony assult to me

eb31
07-20-2011, 19:50
I'm convinced that 98% of the adult males on this forum are white collared, "Mike Brady's" and have never actually been involved in a fist fight of any kind. Sad really. I could never imagine what life would be like having to wonder "if" I had what it took to protect myself without a handgun. I would hate to only feel empowered when armed (what I think occurs more often than not here and on other gun forums). Shame.

Deaf Smith
07-20-2011, 20:52
So eb31, are you 'white collared'?

Deaf

Warp
07-20-2011, 21:07
That was deadly force.

It sure was.



If I'm the guy at the bottom of the pile, all bets are off you have disparity of force and a couple kicks to the head are awfully likely if they get a clear shot, and that's deadly force.. The last thing I'm going to do is draw the gun, too close too easy to grab. I'm aiming for anything vulnerable with my fists, fingers, elbows, knees. If I can draw a weapon it'll be a knife. If I have a hand on the gun it'll be to keep it in the holster.

Randy

I carry a neck knife. One that my finger goes through for secure retention. That would be an excellent time to possibly be glad I do so.

-The initial 5 on 1 I try to break up

-after his buddies came I leave it alone

-the dude that got kicked...I wouldn't let anything else happen to him

Nor would I, likely. Or the guy in red shorts if he got into that condition.

flash mob ..like mas abooy says " when in a flash mob all are guilty" ....shoot the punks.... when you kick a man in his face when he is down that looks like felony assult to me

It sure does.

I'm convinced that 98% of the adult males on this forum are white collared, "Mike Brady's" and have never actually been involved in a fist fight of any kind. Sad really. I could never imagine what life would be like having to wonder "if" I had what it took to protect myself without a handgun. I would hate to only feel empowered when armed (what I think occurs more often than not here and on other gun forums). Shame.


I apologize for not being badass enough to take out 4-5 attackers, with multiples of them being young males, by myself with my bare heads.

Teej
07-20-2011, 21:11
:popcorn:

Waiting for a certain arm chair warrior to jump in. I can't believe he hasn't sniffed this one out yet..........

kdm2
07-20-2011, 21:11
There is nothing wrong about being a good witness.

If you are going to intervene in that you better be carrying a badge.

My firearm is for my protection and my family. Joe Blow on the street is SOL.

rohanreginald
07-20-2011, 21:14
I'm convinced that 98% of the adult males on this forum are white collared, "Mike Brady's" and have never actually been involved in a fist fight of any kind. Sad really. I could never imagine what life would be like having to wonder "if" I had what it took to protect myself without a handgun. I would hate to only feel empowered when armed (what I think occurs more often than not here and on other gun forums). Shame.

I got tired of fighting! I have matured and avoid fights at all costs now. Carrying made me realize how responsible I need to behave now. I quit fighting when I saw a group of guys send someone to the hospital in an ambulance.

kensteele
07-20-2011, 21:19
The small medical problems that have temporarily incapacitated me have shown me that I cannot and should not subject myself to avoidable serious physical injuries caused my fighting. I got so many other cool things I could be doing instead. LOL

skelt11
07-20-2011, 21:20
as the situation unfolded in the video, no way I would get involved.

however if once the guy was unconscious on the pavement if someone started stomping on his head or lifted a heavy object to strike him, I would intervene.

fine by me if some punks want to tussle, but I won't sit back and watch a murder.

I agree 100%!!! No way I could watch and let it happen and live with myself knowing I witness a guy beat to death by a group of people when I could have done something.

clarson_75
07-21-2011, 08:11
I read most of this before i went to work last night and spent the whole night thinking about it. To the best of my experience here is what i came up with.

Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.

^ This is the most cowardly thing you could possibly do. If you carry i would suggest you stop immedietly. At the very minimum call the police. I have been that guy coming in to break up a 1 vs many fight before. Unlike here i knew everyone involved. If I hadn't i don't think i would have done what i did, but there is no reason to just turn your head and walk away. You don't wanna help some kid, because you don't know if he did something to deserve the beating, that is ignorant. If a couple of people have a problem and want to solve it with their fists fine, but how do you condone a 4 vs 1 fight. If he did something that wrong then that is what we have a justice system for. So by your logic if you saw a man raping a woman you would just turn your head and walk away, because she may have done something to deserve it? As far as i'm concerned an attack is an attack! Whether it is motivated by sex or violence. If you don't agree with me then i want to imagine if a few people jumped someone you cared about. When you saw him/her in the hospital all bloodied and broken, crying about how no one would help him/her, would you then have the courage to tell them that you would have done the same thing, or would you be disgusted by all those people who refused to help? I'm not trying to say you need to pull your gun and charge in. or even go in swinging, but like i said before, you should at least call the police.

Gunnut 45/454
07-21-2011, 08:59
eb31
And you'd be very wrong! When I was young an stupid this type of crap was a weekly occurance! Got the broken knuckles/nose to prove it with all the scars as well! But back then thats all it was fists! No one carried and knives didn't get used!:whistling: Usually over a girl with way to much beer on board! I guess you noticed these were young and dumb individuals and they were probably drunk and or stoned! So some things never change!:whistling:

LongGoneDays
07-21-2011, 09:08
Finally watched it. Looks like 4 or 5 on red shorts, then Danny Russo comes flying in.
that is what it got confusing. I'm not jumping into anything like that.

wnr700
07-21-2011, 09:16
I had to watch it several times... camo shorts was done and remained on queer street after the third party got involved. TP whacked him cleanly with a punch in the scrum. I'm suprised Camo's buddy survived the punch and kick to the head. He got royally f'd up too with the kick. Then the coup de grace to camo. TD had some martial arts training, but he was successful mostly because he blindsided them.

Not having the luxery to replay the scene multiple times... if I'm there... I'm bugging out.

Sorry... only a fool looking for a ticket to prison is pulling his ccw badge and a gun.

The state didn't deputize me, it only authorized me to defend myself and my family.

If this was a guy beating his wife in a Walmart parking lot... then that is a different sort of circumstances.

Travclem
07-21-2011, 09:32
I had to watch it several times... camo shorts was done and remained on queer street after the third party got involved. TP whacked him cleanly with a punch in the scrum. I'm suprised Camo's buddy survived the punch and kick to the head. He got royally f'd up too with the kick. Then the coup de grace to camo. TD had some martial arts training, but he was successful mostly because he blindsided them.

Not having the luxery to replay the scene multiple times... if I'm there... I'm bugging out.

Sorry... only a fool looking for a ticket to prison is pulling his ccw badge and a gun.

The state didn't deputize me, it only authorized me to defend myself and my family.

If this was a guy beating his wife in a Walmart parking lot... then that is a different sort of circumstances.
Be careful about stuff like that. If you shoot her husband she will testify against you and say he didn't do anything, even if he was beating her ass.

wnr700
07-21-2011, 09:43
Be careful about stuff like that. If you shoot her husband she will testify against you and say he didn't do anything, even if he was beating her ass.

I see very few sceanrios that would cause me to draw my gun...

I used to snicker when watching EDC videos on you tube with people breaking out a camera.

This idea starts to make alot of sense to me...

eastx
07-21-2011, 09:53
I try my best to not put myself in situations where something like that could be a possible outcome.


This right here

crsuribe
07-21-2011, 10:09
I would call in an airstrike for sure.

FireForged
07-21-2011, 12:07
I am not going to jump into the middle of some street fight if there is any possible way for me to remove myself from the event.

Warp
07-21-2011, 12:11
How does one differentiate between a "street fight" and an unlucky guy getting jumped by a bunch of people?

Take the beginning of this video. Red shorts is running away from multiple attackers who catch him, get him on the ground and then continue to attack him while he is down. At this point, before somebody steps up in red short's defense and things get chaotic, would you call what you are seeing a "street fight"? Why or why not?

FireForged
07-21-2011, 12:24
How does one differentiate between a "street fight" and an unlucky guy getting jumped by a bunch of people?

Take the beginning of this video. Red shorts is running away from multiple attackers who catch him, get him on the ground and then continue to attack him while he is down. At this point, before somebody steps up in red short's defense and things get chaotic, would you call what you are seeing a "street fight"? Why or why not?

The problem with any kinds of violent event that you happen upon is that its unlikely that you are going to know all you need to know in order to have a complete picture. Maybe its mutual combat "street fight", maybe they are chase'n a robber, maybe some poor guy is getting attacked for no good reason. The answer is "who knows". What I do know is that its DANGER. A Dangerous- "who knows" kind of situation means I need to get the heck away from it.

Warp
07-21-2011, 12:27
The problem with any kinds of violent event that you happen upon is that its unlikely that you are going to know all you need to know in order to have a complete picture. Maybe its mutual combat, maybe they are chase'n a robber, maybe some poor guy is getting attacked for no good reason. The answer is "who knows". What I do know is that its DANGER.

True.

But let's say they are chasing a robber...that does not give them the right or the justification to pile onto the guy when he is on the ground like that. He was clearly running away and trying his best to avoid the confrontation and they were clearly bringing the fight to him against his will. That much you can reasonably conclude based on your observations.

John Rambo
07-21-2011, 13:06
How does one differentiate between a "street fight" and an unlucky guy getting jumped by a bunch of people?

Take the beginning of this video. Red shorts is running away from multiple attackers who catch him, get him on the ground and then continue to attack him while he is down. At this point, before somebody steps up in red short's defense and things get chaotic, would you call what you are seeing a "street fight"? Why or why not?

Maybe. Maybe I'd call it a beatdown.

But you know what I would call it?

None of my business! And then I'd walk away and get a Slurpee. Because I want a Slurpee lately.

Warp
07-21-2011, 13:08
Maybe. Maybe I'd call it a beatdown.


That would seem reasonable.

Bren
07-21-2011, 13:52
dude at the end could have been killed by that kick to the head...Just FYI hardly just slapping and wrestling

I've been on both sides of that kind of kick, more than once each way. Not as big a deal as some of you make it out to be. My grandmother wouldn't consider that a major fight.:rofl: I assume it may differ in different places, but that just wouldn't be that big a deal where I'm from.

21Carrier
07-21-2011, 13:55
Awesome video! The dude at the end gets his face owned. There's nothing like eating pavement.

I would say DEFINITELY stay out of that. Unless YOU are directly threatened, or it's OBVIOUS who's good and who's bad, stay out of it.

Here's a short story about not knowing who's good and who's bad, though it doesn't have much to do with guns:

My dad is a Cardiologist (heart doctor) here in Alabama. When he was in New Orleans doing his residency, working in the ER, he noticed a man with multiple gunshot wounds laying on a gurney in a corner of the ER with no one attending to him. After a quick exam of the unconscious man, my dad determined the man was minutes or seconds from death. He started screaming for help, and quickly took the man (on the gurney) to the OR, and got one of his fellow doctors to perform the necessary emergency surgery to save his life.

The man lived. My dad was extremely proud of himself, and when he got home, he told my mom and grandparents all about it. He thought he had done such a good job. Being a new doctor, saving a man's life really made him feel great. Well, the next day, he went to work, and went to check on the man whose life he had just saved. He found the man to be ok, but handcuffed to his bed, and guarded by a cop. He asked the cop to come outside the room and talk to him. The officer told my dad that the man had robbed some place (I forget, but I THINK it was a bank), and killed several people, including a cop.

Needless to say, my dad wasn't too proud of himself anymore. He saved a murderer and thief. This is a true story. I guess the moral of the story is that you really don't know what you're getting into. When we are talking about things as final as life and death, there is no room for mistakes. Don't get involved unless it is obvious who the bad guy is, someone is about to die, or you are in danger.

wnr700
07-21-2011, 14:00
I remember a recent video on some forum involving some tough guys from a Philly (?) neighborhood. A fight breaks out in a Denny's.

Chairs, bottles, punches, involving about ten people.

About five minutes of chaos, at a point when things have cooled off a bit... into the scene walks an off duty LEO who witnessed the entire episode. He proceeds to chastize one of the toughs for running his mouth and starting the fracas.

If the trained LEO isn't going to get involved... why should anyone?

21Carrier
07-21-2011, 14:02
True.

But let's say they are chasing a robber...that does not give them the right or the justification to pile onto the guy when he is on the ground like that. He was clearly running away and trying his best to avoid the confrontation and they were clearly bringing the fight to him against his will. That much you can reasonably conclude based on your observations.

But just because someone is running away does not mean they don't deserve the beatdown. If you killed my girlfriend right in front of me, I'd be tempted to chase you and beat you down (hypothetical, I'd do far more than that). Just because you run does not negate the fact that you started the fight. Red shorts might have punched the guy's girlfriend then started running. In that case, he deserves to get beat.

RS7
07-21-2011, 14:36
That last kick to the head : Priceless

bigskinny
07-21-2011, 15:07
I live in Illinois, so no option to carry.

Would i get involved in this fight ? From watching the video i would say no.

The fact is nobody in the video has any skills. like most "tough guys" i have ever met. And its hard to tell exactly what is going on.

In the past i have jumped into similar situations to help someone in trouble.

dogchild
07-21-2011, 15:12
It seems that our younger generation wants to beat each other's brains out , i say let them

clarson_75
07-21-2011, 15:27
But just because someone is running away does not mean they don't deserve the beatdown. If you killed my girlfriend right in front of me, I'd be tempted to chase you and beat you down (hypothetical, I'd do far more than that). Just because you run does not negate the fact that you started the fight. Red shorts might have punched the guy's girlfriend then started running. In that case, he deserves to get beat.

ok, chase him down. when/if you catch him, do what you want to him. All i hope is that you live in a state with the death penalty. I don't think your dad should feel any different about what he did for that guy. That is why they take the hippocratic oath. It isn't their responsibility to decide if someone deserves help with injuries. and in that situation i think the hospital would have faced a huge lawsuit for letting a guy die in the corner. now if there wasn't enough people to help everyone, of course i'd help the leo/good guy before i helped the scum bag, but that doesn't sound anything like the situation your dad was in.

kensteele
07-21-2011, 17:55
Awesome video! The dude at the end gets his face owned. There's nothing like eating pavement.

I would say DEFINITELY stay out of that. Unless YOU are directly threatened, or it's OBVIOUS who's good and who's bad, stay out of it.

Here's a short story about not knowing who's good and who's bad, though it doesn't have much to do with guns:

My dad is a Cardiologist (heart doctor) here in Alabama. When he was in New Orleans doing his residency, working in the ER, he noticed a man with multiple gunshot wounds laying on a gurney in a corner of the ER with no one attending to him. After a quick exam of the unconscious man, my dad determined the man was minutes or seconds from death. He started screaming for help, and quickly took the man (on the gurney) to the OR, and got one of his fellow doctors to perform the necessary emergency surgery to save his life.

The man lived. My dad was extremely proud of himself, and when he got home, he told my mom and grandparents all about it. He thought he had done such a good job. Being a new doctor, saving a man's life really made him feel great. Well, the next day, he went to work, and went to check on the man whose life he had just saved. He found the man to be ok, but handcuffed to his bed, and guarded by a cop. He asked the cop to come outside the room and talk to him. The officer told my dad that the man had robbed some place (I forget, but I THINK it was a bank), and killed several people, including a cop.

Needless to say, my dad wasn't too proud of himself anymore. He saved a murderer and thief. This is a true story. I guess the moral of the story is that you really don't know what you're getting into. When we are talking about things as final as life and death, there is no room for mistakes. Don't get involved unless it is obvious who the bad guy is, someone is about to die, or you are in danger.

I like your story and it's very telling but there's an Oath involved there so it's quite a bit different than our story. I get to decide who I'm going to help and when and out of 7 billion people on the planet, my guess is there are about 2 billion not worth it. ;)

kensteele
07-21-2011, 17:57
But just because someone is running away does not mean they don't deserve the beatdown. If you killed my girlfriend right in front of me, I'd be tempted to chase you and beat you down (hypothetical, I'd do far more than that). Just because you run does not negate the fact that you started the fight. Red shorts might have punched the guy's girlfriend then started running. In that case, he deserves to get beat.

Exactly. We couldn't tell at first, but in the end it is clear to me red short is a criminal from the very start, both while running away and after retaliating in the end.

Riz58
07-21-2011, 18:39
But the question posted by Sam Spade is NOT would you INTERVENE, it is what would you do if you were in Red Shorts place and, lets assume, you were jumped based upon a feigned provocation?

Re position to carry: This demonstrates that Appendix carry is best for security and ease of access. It is uncomfortable to many of us and not practical in many environments (the office, for example.)

The second most secure would probably IWB behind the hip. Access more difficult, and could be snatched by the 2nd or 3rd BG in the fight.

What is your physical condition? I am average to above-average for my age group, but that says little. I would not last long endurance-wise in a fight like this. Conditioning back on the agenda!

Would I shoot? Wrestling with one guy, being slapped by a couple of metro-sexuals (can't tell if they are male or female), probably not. They start kicking, pick up a tool to strike, or escalate - probably so - pull the knife and start cutting or access firearm and start shooting.

(BTW, I do not carry very often in appendix mode, and am only now starting to experiment with IWB.)

steveksux
07-21-2011, 18:49
True.

But let's say they are chasing a robber...that does not give them the right or the justification to pile onto the guy when he is on the ground like that. He was clearly running away and trying his best to avoid the confrontation and they were clearly bringing the fight to him against his will. That much you can reasonably conclude based on your observations.
Wanting to get involved is one thing. Going into a situation you cannot control is quite another. Cops have backup, someone to watch their back. I do not.

I know I can't swim very well. It would have to be a close family member in the water for me to attempt a rescue cause the most likely outcome is me being the 2nd victim. Same thing applies in a situation like this video. A number of times various people got blindsided, that could very well have been someone who tried to intervene that got nailed instead. Too chaotic. A man's got to know his limitations.

Randy

schaibaa
07-21-2011, 18:57
I've been on both sides of that kind of kick, more than once each way. Not as big a deal as some of you make it out to be. My grandmother wouldn't consider that a major fight.:rofl: I assume it may differ in different places, but that just wouldn't be that big a deal where I'm from.

I agree. Being on both ends of it a time or two myself it really doesn't have a significant effect. I think it's the fact that the shape of your foot is similar to your face so the impact is spread across a wide area. If you got a toe to the chin the right way you'd be in a world of hurt, but the face punt is over-rated. Not to be a keyboard commando but you gotta keep people in front of you. It didn't really look like there was much of a beating.

Warp
07-21-2011, 21:57
But just because someone is running away does not mean they don't deserve the beatdown. If you killed my girlfriend right in front of me, I'd be tempted to chase you and beat you down (hypothetical, I'd do far more than that). Just because you run does not negate the fact that you started the fight. Red shorts might have punched the guy's girlfriend then started running. In that case, he deserves to get beat.

And red shorts might suffer serious injury that stays with him for the rest of his life because he walked by the group at the wrong time. He might even end up getting killed.

Not so far from the area I live in, not so long ago, a kid was jumped by multiple attackers and killed...beat to death on the street. Why? Some guy got pissed off at a girl but said he wouldn't hit a girl, but rather hit the next guy that walked by. This poor kid walked by, the guy and some other guys jumped him, and they ****ing beat him to death there on the street simply for walking by. And nobody else in the area stopped them.

That is what you risk happening right in front of you because you tell yourself 'yeah, well, maybe the guy hit one of their girlfriends'.

TDC20
07-21-2011, 23:40
You really need to know what you're walking into before deciding to intervene. This story happened to me when I was about the age of the people involved in this fight scene. This is long before any state had a CCW law.

I was out drinking and clubbing on a Saturday night downtown in a major metropolitan area with 3 of my friends. One friend was just finishing up his chemo for Hodgkin's lymphoma. He was our (sober) designated driver. One friend was very small, about 5'3" and maybe 125lbs. Other friend was about 5'10 and 165. I was a runner at the time with a wiry build, 6'0 and 165lbs. Chemo friend had a shunt surgically installed in his chest just under his skin with a catheter that went directly into his aorta. A sharp blow to the shunt would result in a quick and painful death.

We decide to leave the bar scene around 2:00 a.m. As we approach the parking garage, we hear and see a commotion about 100yds away. No one else is around. A big guy, and I mean BIG guy (he was about 6'8 and 280lbs, must have played college or pro football looking at his build) has no shirt on and has petite girl #1, who is screaming, in a bear hug from behind. Two other women are screaming trying to assist girl #1. All three women are nicely dressed, attractive, and I doubt any weighed even 120lbs. We hurried to the scene, and at first I was thinking sexual assault in progress. As we approach, it becomes obvious that the guy is in a rage attacking girl #1, which didn't make much sense. Girl # 2 has her spike heel shoe in hand, and while screaming "STOP IT! STOP IT!" is beating shirtless huge guy in his naked back from behind with said spike heel, drawing considerable blood.

At this point, my adrenaline is coming up, because it's obvious what's coming next. We're all stand up guys and we're not gonna let this go down, no matter how bad "big guy" is going to hurt us. I remember thinking...geez...of all my friends to be out with tonight, this couldn't have been worse, except we still have him kind of outnumbered.

As we approached in a semi-circle to within about 5 feet of the assault, girl #1 manages to toss car keys to girl # 3. Big guy looks up and sees 4 guys ready to go and immediately ceases assault. All girls start yelling, "Just get in the car! Get in the car!" All 4 get into the same car and drive away. No "thank you", no nothing. They just get into the car and leave.

The 4 of us are standing there, looking at each other, adrenaline pumping, and saying, WTF!?!?! It wasn't until the next day that I put all the clues together and figured out what was going on. The big guy wanted to drive, but he had too much to drink. So girl #1 grabbed the car keys and ran. Big guy chases her down, demanding the keys. That's about where we walked in on it. I have no idea how he lost his shirt, but I guess girls #2 and #3 ripped it off trying to pull him off of girl #1.

So think about this. No one knows who YOU are. You pull a gun in a situation like this video, and that makes you either 1. the good guy, or 2. the bad guy. Suppose another CCW carrier or off-duty LEO sees you and assumes you are #2? Now he has to draw his weapon to neutralize you. This is a bad situation that can easily turn into you getting shot and killed, or jailed for a long, long time. What I am saying is, if you are not 100% absolutely sure of what is happening, DO NOT assume you know what is happening. If there's no imminent danger of loss of life, better to call 911 and be a good witness. This fight was pretty much over as soon as it started. There were some concussions handed out, but I doubt anything life threatening.

Intervening in a situation with deadly force is a dangerous game, which in this case would have had more serious consequences than the fight itself.

mad.gunsmith
07-22-2011, 00:14
Don't get involved

happyguy
07-22-2011, 07:51
This is a good thread and I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.

The guy that launched the last kick to the head of the guy that was down should be charged with attempted murder.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

David Armstrong
07-22-2011, 10:59
FWIW, I find it interesting the number of folks here that are saying "stay out of it and be a good witness" compared to those who try to justify shooting the BG in a convenience store robbery because they "can't just stand by and do nothing while somebody else is in danger.":whistling:

Sam Spade
07-22-2011, 12:16
FWIW, I find it interesting the number of folks here that are saying "stay out of it and be a good witness" compared to those who try to justify shooting the BG in a convenience store robbery because they "can't just stand by and do nothing while somebody else is in danger.":whistling:

I think people are making a value judgement and distinguishing between volunteer and victim.

PA Wizard
07-22-2011, 12:21
[QUOTE=
"Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt." What other questions should we be asking ourselves?[/QUOTE]

Off to see the lizard!! Nice to see another Parrothead here!

kensteele
07-22-2011, 12:24
Here's my statement: "I cannot stand by and do nothing while innocent people are victims of imminent violent crime while I have the means to do something about it."

Warp
07-22-2011, 13:31
I think people are making a value judgement and distinguishing between volunteer and victim.

I agree.

In some cases...maybe even in many cases...there is likely to be something to that judgement. But not in all cases.

And I get a feeling some people would see the convenience store robbery and say "I don't want to interfere, what if the clerk being robbed slept with the robber's wife?" lol

Warp
07-22-2011, 13:33
Here's my statement: "I cannot stand by and do nothing while innocent people are victims of imminent violent crime while I have the means to do something about it."

What I am curious about is how in the middle of that, based on what was in the video, you came to the conclusion that it was "street gang fighting".

What clues told you that red shorts is/was a member of a street gang?

kensteele
07-22-2011, 15:32
What I am curious about is how in the middle of that, based on what was in the video, you came to the conclusion that it was "street gang fighting".

What clues told you that red shorts is/was a member of a street gang?

I have a different viewpoint on what constitutes a gang, not by definition in the traditional sense. To me, gangs are no longer young ethnic male criminals wearing colours and breaking the law. I believe there are "gangs" that have been sent, from off the streets, to Congress in order to disrupt and create lawless disorder. I call them gangs because they group together (under a common cause) and they purposely instill chaos.

In this fight, you have more than one person attacking and just because they are white and poor fighters doesn't exempt them from being gang members in my eyes. Their actions are no different than the classic chinese gangs or latino gangs or bloods, whomever; except I realise a who bunch of people are not going to see it that way but I do. I know thugs when I see them, sorry if others cannot. Since I see them as thugs, I choose not to help them. Again, I understand if others choose to help, but none of my business. If someone asks me why didn't I help, I answer I don't get involved in gang fights, bottom line, end of story.

Warp
07-22-2011, 15:51
I have a different viewpoint on what constitutes a gang, not by definition in the traditional sense. To me, gangs are no longer young ethnic male criminals wearing colours and breaking the law. I believe there are "gangs" that have been sent, from off the streets, to Congress in order to disrupt and create lawless disorder. I call them gangs because they group together (under a common cause) and they purposely instill chaos.

In this fight, you have more than one person attacking and just because they are white and poor fighters doesn't exempt them from being gang members in my eyes. Their actions are no different than the classic chinese gangs or latino gangs or bloods, whomever; except I realise a who bunch of people are not going to see it that way but I do. I know thugs when I see them, sorry if others cannot. Since I see them as thugs, I choose not to help them. Again, I understand if others choose to help, but none of my business. If someone asks me why didn't I help, I answer I don't get involved in gang fights, bottom line, end of story.


So basically you are only willing to act if it is 1v1 but as soon as the one on the ground is being attacked by a group they are on their own. How very nice of you

Riz58
07-22-2011, 17:39
I find it interesting that no one will answer the original question posed:

The question restated: If you were in Red Shorts situation in the video - in a fight against multiple attackers - are you prepared for that eventuality? If yes - how? If not - what do you need to do?

Warp
07-22-2011, 17:42
I find it interesting that no one will answer the original question posed:

The question restated: If you were in Red Shorts situation in the video - in a fight against multiple attackers - are you prepared for that eventuality? If yes - how? If not - what do you need to do?

Did you read the thread??

First page



If for some reason multiple guys are chasing me down I very well may draw. As we know and as the video shows it only takes a second or two to get knocked down and piled on and then you are not only in a very dangerous situation where drawing and firing will be very difficult/maybe not possible but you also stand the chance of losing control of your firearm. It is far too easy to grab a pistol out of a typical open top zero retention (other than a little friction) IWB concealment holster. Or get your head kicked in.


Edit: And I would prefer to be carrying openly. I won't pretend as though, should somebody get close enough to be hands on, and especially should I wind up on the ground against multiple attackers, my IWB holstered firearm will remain a secret. Thus I would MUCH rather have the better retention that goes with an OWB holster as well as the quicker draw (and easier one handed draw)

kensteele
07-22-2011, 17:54
So basically you are only willing to act if it is 1v1 but as soon as the one on the ground is being attacked by a group they are on their own. How very nice of you

That's not it at all. That's someone else's philosophy, not mind. I reject your statement completely. For example, if there are two criminals holding guns to one clerk head, I will assist.

Warp
07-22-2011, 18:00
That's not it at all. That's someone else's philosophy, not mind. I reject your statement completely. For example, if there are two criminals holding guns to one clerk head, I will assist.

But aren't those two criminals a gang?

kensteele
07-22-2011, 18:06
^You got my answer, I don't need to explain further. Let's wait until it really happens and it will be completely and utterly clear to you and the people responsible. The right people that need and deserve the help will get it and the people that are criminals and thugs and gang members will be without....it's that simple. Can you understand that? LOL

Warp
07-22-2011, 18:10
^You got my answer, I don't need to explain further. Let's wait until it really happens and it will be completely and utterly clear to you and the people responsible. The right people that need and deserve the help will get it and the people that are criminals and thugs and gang members will be without....it's that simple. Can you understand that? LOL

Which brings us right back to:

What I am curious about is how in the middle of that, based on what was in the video, you came to the conclusion that it was "street gang fighting".

What clues told you that red shorts is/was a member of a street gang?

kensteele
07-22-2011, 18:33
^see post #79.

Warp
07-22-2011, 18:38
I call them gangs because they group together (under a common cause) and they purposely instill chaos.

I know thugs when I see them, sorry if others cannot. Since I see them as thugs, I choose not to help them.



What I am curious about is how in the middle of that, based on what was in the video, you came to the conclusion that it was "street gang fighting".

What clues told you that red shorts is/was a member of a street gang?

I'll only ask this one more time. If you dodge the question again I will assume you do not have an answer and forget about it.

kensteele
07-22-2011, 19:19
I'll only ask this one more time. If you dodge the question again I will assume you do not have an answer and forget about it.

Yep, forget about it. My clues are not important to you. If you don't think he is a gangster, speak up.

I'm not dodging, just don't feel like going round and round about my personal opinions. He's a gangster, I can tell, you can't, nothing is going to change my mind about that, it's the primary reason why I won't help him, let's leave it at that.

TDC20
07-22-2011, 19:25
FWIW, I find it interesting the number of folks here that are saying "stay out of it and be a good witness" compared to those who try to justify shooting the BG in a convenience store robbery because they "can't just stand by and do nothing while somebody else is in danger.":whistling:

I find it surprising that people can't judge the difference between the two. In the case of the street fight, whose side are you going to be on? Who is the aggressor? Who is the innocent victim? Can you tell from what you see? I couldn't. At first, red shorts appears to be the victim. At the end, after tan shorts helps him get out of the 4 on 1, he delivers a pretty serious kick to camo guy's head. Some are even saying attempted murder. Who did you help, because everyone in the fight could have been classified as both a victim and aggressor at some point?

On the other hand, a guy pointing a gun at a store clerk in a robbery is pretty obvious who is the criminal and who is the innocent in jeopardy of possibly losing their life. Two completely different situations IMHO.

I'm not saying anyone has to do anything in either situation. As someone said earlier, CCW is not being deputized to enforce the law. It's for self-defense, and most CCW laws cover you if you decide to come to the aid of someone else whose life is in jeopardy. Even the cops are not obligated to put their life at risk to save the store clerk in that situation, though most people would be more critical of the police if they decided to not get involved for their own safety. Maybe the "victims" in either case should have had the good sense and foresight to get a CCW and carry, and be responsible for their own lives and self-defense. Then I wouldn't have to risk my life (being shot or going to jail) trying to save them.

There are a lot of variables in each situation that need to be judged at the time to determine what the best course of action is. These discussions are good, because they make you think about different things and get other CCW holder's points of view. What you THINK you see at the time could be totally wrong (see my previous post), and when the prosecutor lays out all the evidence of what was REALLY happening (you know, the Monday morning quarterbacking), it won't be hard to convince the jury to send you to jail for a very long time if you got it wrong.

I don't carry hoping for something bad to happen so I can get my money's worth out of my CCW fee. I'd much rather NEVER be in a situation where I had to make the decision to shoot someone. On the other hand, having a CCW means we have the option to decide if/when that situation occurs.

Bravado is a poor substitute for good judgement.

wnr700
07-22-2011, 19:31
How would one bystander stop a 4 on 1, or 4 on 2 street fight.

Pull out your CCW badge?
Yell stop... I HAVE A GUN!!!!
Fire two warning shots in the air?

My guess out of all the participants, you the CCW holder would be doing the longest stint in jail.

Warp
07-22-2011, 20:16
He's a gangster, I can tell

How?

Remember my question was in the context of the early/middle part of the video where red shorts is on the ground getting piled on, before somebody steps up to help him out.

How would one bystander stop a 4 on 1, or 4 on 2 street fight.

Pull out your CCW badge?
Yell stop... I HAVE A GUN!!!!
Fire two warning shots in the air?

My guess out of all the participants, you the CCW holder would be doing the longest stint in jail.

For what?

21Carrier
07-22-2011, 20:17
You really need to know what you're walking into before deciding to intervene. This story happened to me when I was about the age of the people involved in this fight scene. This is long before any state had a CCW law.

I was out drinking and clubbing on a Saturday night downtown in a major metropolitan area with 3 of my friends. One friend was just finishing up his chemo for Hodgkin's lymphoma. He was our (sober) designated driver. One friend was very small, about 5'3" and maybe 125lbs. Other friend was about 5'10 and 165. I was a runner at the time with a wiry build, 6'0 and 165lbs. Chemo friend had a shunt surgically installed in his chest just under his skin with a catheter that went directly into his aorta. A sharp blow to the shunt would result in a quick and painful death.

We decide to leave the bar scene around 2:00 a.m. As we approach the parking garage, we hear and see a commotion about 100yds away. No one else is around. A big guy, and I mean BIG guy (he was about 6'8 and 280lbs, must have played college or pro football looking at his build) has no shirt on and has petite girl #1, who is screaming, in a bear hug from behind. Two other women are screaming trying to assist girl #1. All three women are nicely dressed, attractive, and I doubt any weighed even 120lbs. We hurried to the scene, and at first I was thinking sexual assault in progress. As we approach, it becomes obvious that the guy is in a rage attacking girl #1, which didn't make much sense. Girl # 2 has her spike heel shoe in hand, and while screaming "STOP IT! STOP IT!" is beating shirtless huge guy in his naked back from behind with said spike heel, drawing considerable blood.

At this point, my adrenaline is coming up, because it's obvious what's coming next. We're all stand up guys and we're not gonna let this go down, no matter how bad "big guy" is going to hurt us. I remember thinking...geez...of all my friends to be out with tonight, this couldn't have been worse, except we still have him kind of outnumbered.

As we approached in a semi-circle to within about 5 feet of the assault, girl #1 manages to toss car keys to girl # 3. Big guy looks up and sees 4 guys ready to go and immediately ceases assault. All girls start yelling, "Just get in the car! Get in the car!" All 4 get into the same car and drive away. No "thank you", no nothing. They just get into the car and leave.

The 4 of us are standing there, looking at each other, adrenaline pumping, and saying, WTF!?!?! It wasn't until the next day that I put all the clues together and figured out what was going on. The big guy wanted to drive, but he had too much to drink. So girl #1 grabbed the car keys and ran. Big guy chases her down, demanding the keys. That's about where we walked in on it. I have no idea how he lost his shirt, but I guess girls #2 and #3 ripped it off trying to pull him off of girl #1.

So think about this. No one knows who YOU are. You pull a gun in a situation like this video, and that makes you either 1. the good guy, or 2. the bad guy. Suppose another CCW carrier or off-duty LEO sees you and assumes you are #2? Now he has to draw his weapon to neutralize you. This is a bad situation that can easily turn into you getting shot and killed, or jailed for a long, long time. What I am saying is, if you are not 100% absolutely sure of what is happening, DO NOT assume you know what is happening. If there's no imminent danger of loss of life, better to call 911 and be a good witness. This fight was pretty much over as soon as it started. There were some concussions handed out, but I doubt anything life threatening.

Intervening in a situation with deadly force is a dangerous game, which in this case would have had more serious consequences than the fight itself.

I'm not saying anyone has to do anything in either situation. As someone said earlier, CCW is not being deputized to enforce the law. It's for self-defense, and most CCW laws cover you if you decide to come to the aid of someone else whose life is in jeopardy. Even the cops are not obligated to put their life at risk to save the store clerk in that situation, though most people would be more critical of the police if they decided to not get involved for their own safety. Maybe the "victims" in either case should have had the good sense and foresight to get a CCW and carry, and be responsible for their own lives and self-defense. Then I wouldn't have to risk my life (being shot or going to jail) trying to save them.

There are a lot of variables in each situation that need to be judged at the time to determine what the best course of action is. These discussions are good, because they make you think about different things and get other CCW holder's points of view. What you THINK you see at the time could be totally wrong (see my previous post), and when the prosecutor lays out all the evidence of what was REALLY happening (you know, the Monday morning quarterbacking), it won't be hard to convince the jury to send you to jail for a very long time if you got it wrong.

I don't carry hoping for something bad to happen so I can get my money's worth out of my CCW fee. I'd much rather NEVER be in a situation where I had to make the decision to shoot someone. On the other hand, having a CCW means we have the option to decide if/when that situation occurs.

Bravado is a poor substitute for good judgement.

Anyone who has not read the above quotes from TDC should read them. In the first quote, the story, I found myself thinking I MIGHT draw. I am well aware of the laws in my state, and they say that deadly force is applicable in the defense of another, and especially to prevent kidnap, rape, and murder. While reading that story, and imagining myself in his shoes, I likely would have run up to that big guy thinking what TDC thought (girl's getting taken/raped/assaulted), and I might have drawn if he didn't stop. If I was alone, I would CERTAINLY have drawn considering the size of the guy.

However, after reading the end, it's just proof that I didn't understand what was going on. I would have made a SERIOUS mistake that could have cost me my CCW permit, and maybe even my freedom. I'M NOT A COP. MY CCW PERMIT DOES NOT MAKE ME A COP. Not only do I not have an obligation to get involved, but I SHOULDN'T get my gun involved unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. Getting my pistol involved means either I or someone else is seconds from certain death.

The second quote of TDC highlights this. A CCW permit is not the same as being deputized. Of course we all know this, but many of us kind of FEEL like we are gonna go out and stop robberies and murders if we run into them. That's just asking to get prosecuted. If we run across a violent situation as CCW holders, we need to make two important decisions:

-First: Should I intervene or act at all? Is it reasonable to assume someone will die or be seriously injured without my assistance? If so, intervene. If someone's life is not immediately at stake, call police, and be a good witness.

-Second: Is my pistol necessary for intervention? Is my life being directly threatened? Can I possibly resolve this situation with a punch, kick, bottle to the head? If so, leave the pistol holstered.

It's all too easy to think about these situations without mulling over the consequences in full detail. I think this has all shown me that I might have drawn too quickly, and I should likely change my attitude in regards to CCW. People say the CCW is a last resort, but I think many fail to really understand that. That means you take a few punches, you throw a few punches, you do EVERYTHING you can to safely resolve the situation. The pistol comes out when you think you may have just taken your last breath. Not before. It's not worth shooting someone because you THOUGHT they were trying to kidnap some girl. It's not even worth DRAWING on someone over a mistake.

I would and will get involved in any situation like the video, but I would be pulling people off, and trying to deescalate. If they turned on me, I would fight until the odds were 4:1 or worse. Then, when I was pretty sure my life was in danger, I would draw.

I just remembered this story. About a year ago (maybe two), a friend of a friend got in a fight in a bar here in Birmingham, AL (you can look it up, I think the club was called Zen at the time). He ended up on the floor with several guys beating him. He was scared he was going to die, so he pulled his knife and stabbed one. I forget what happened to the guy, but if he didn't die, it was serious. I am wanting to say the guy hit an artery and the assailant (one of them) died, but I might be wrong. Last I heard, the kid was facing charges, and all the nightclubs started frisking people for knives. It was a big deal. I'll try to look up the details, but it just goes to show that you shouldn't use deadly force until it's REALLY bad. The police/DA are not always as understanding as you think they will be. Remember that in a bad situation, you will be freaked out with adrenaline flowing, and they will be nitpicking the situation later on with a cool head. There's no need to put yourself in these situations if you don't have to. MAKE DAMN SURE you have good reason to draw and fire!

Warp
07-22-2011, 20:19
I just remembered this story. About a year ago (maybe two), a friend of a friend got in a fight in a bar here in Birmingham, AL (you can look it up, I think the club was called Zen at the time). He ended up on the floor with several guys beating him. He was scared he was going to die, so he pulled his knife and stabbed one. I forget what happened to the guy, but if he didn't die, it was serious. I am wanting to say the guy hit an artery and the assailant (one of them) died, but I might be wrong. Last I heard, the kid was facing charges, and all the nightclubs started frisking people for knives. It was a big deal. I'll try to look up the details, but it just goes to show that you shouldn't use deadly force until it's REALLY bad.

The lesson there: Don't start fights.

21Carrier
07-22-2011, 20:40
The lesson there: Don't start fights.

Well, it takes two people to fight, and if only one started it, that means the other didn't. Just because you don't start fights doesn't mean you'll never get into one. I tried to look up the incident, but can't find it. There was a second stabbing at that same club (Zen) in August 2009, but that wasn't it. It looks like the one I'm talking about was actually in June 2007 (and the club was called The Station at that time), but I can't find much info about what happened to the guy with the knife. The other guy DID die, though.

I do remember that all the witnesses (friends I spoke to that were there) said he was being beaten and kicked by 4-5 guys when he pulled the knife. I remember how badly it scared me. It scared me because I have ALWAYS carried a knife since I was about 14. Not for protection, but as a tool. I would use it for protection if that happened, though. It worried me that he was getting prosecuted. Who knows what ended up happening to him, or what the TRUTH was about the situation. I just know that I'm going to do my best to avoid fights, and my gun will be an ABSOLUTE last resort.

Another thing to think about, and another reason to avoid fights altogether: an assault charge will prevent you from having a CCW permit, and a gun in most, if not all, states. If you get into a fight and get charged with assault, kiss that CCW permit goodbye.

Warp
07-22-2011, 20:45
Well, it takes two people to fight, and if only one started it, that means the other didn't. Just because you don't start fights doesn't mean you'll never get into one. I tried to look up the incident, but can't find it. There was a second stabbing at that same club (Zen) in August 2009, but that wasn't it. It looks like the one I'm talking about was actually in June 2007 (and the club was called The Station at that time), but I can't find much info about what happened to the guy with the knife. The other guy DID die, though.

I do remember that all the witnesses (friends I spoke to that were there) said he was being beaten and kicked by 4-5 guys when he pulled the knife. I remember how badly it scared me. It scared me because I have ALWAYS carried a knife since I was about 14. Not for protection, but as a tool. I would use it for protection if that happened, though. It worried me that he was getting prosecuted. Who knows what ended up happening to him, or what the TRUTH was about the situation. I just know that I'm going to do my best to avoid fights, and my gun will be an ABSOLUTE last resort.

Another thing to think about, and another reason to avoid fights altogether: an assault charge will prevent you from having a CCW permit, and a gun in most, if not all, states. If you get into a fight and get charged with assault, kiss that CCW permit goodbye.

Generally when somebody uses a phrase like "got in a fight" they were not an unwilling participant who was attacked.

Second lesson I get from that (athough I don't need that lesson): Don't go to bars

Peace Frog
07-23-2011, 09:25
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.

This ^^^

If those idiots want to kill each other I'd let them go right ahead.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 09:31
I find it surprising that people can't judge the difference between the two.
Why do you need to judge? The argument from so many in the convenience store robbery is "I think I have to do something because I couldn't live with myself if I just stood by and let an innocent person get hurt" or some variation on that, or the ever-popular "Well the BG might decide to hurt me or mine so I better not wait if I get a chance" or the great "If you let the BG get away with it this time he might hurt someone else." Don't see that much difference here. In fact, in this case, we have proven, on-going violent assault, so one could make a point that the actions are worse here than in a robbery. Just food for thought.:dunno:

TDC20
07-23-2011, 11:12
Why do you need to judge?

The point that I was trying to make about using good judgement in a given situation is this. In any situation, would drawing your weapon make the situation better or worse? Would firing your weapon make the situation better or worse?

In the case of the street fight, I think the discussion on this thread makes it pretty clear that we don't know for sure whether someone "deserved" a beadown or not, who was in the right or who was in the wrong, or even whether there were two groups of people fighting, or just one group beating up on red shorts with tan shorts coming to his aid as a good samaritan. That probably means, if you draw in this situation, how many people will see you as a possible gang member, or on one side or another? You have seriously escalated the situation from a fight where you might have a few loose teeth and a concussion to one where someone stupid (not you) does something that ends up with the coroner being called. In the street fight, the participants have already established poor judgement and stupidity. If you wanted to get involved, do what the tan shorts guy did and wade in with fists and kung fu. But just remember, if the cops see you "trying to help" with fists flying, you are now fully involved in the assault, and you're probably gonna go for a ride downtown, where your CCW weapon may not earn you any points once disclosed to police. IMHO, this is poor judgement to get involved for the reasons I have given.

In the case of the store clerk robbery, that's a bit different. Once he has his gun trained on the clerk, he may be a second away from pulling the trigger. You have to decide, will he shoot the clerk, or just take the money and run? If you try to shoot him, can you fully disable him before he kills the clerk anyway, or anyone else with a wild spray of shooting? How many bystanders are around? Do you have a clear shot with a clear and solid backstop? What are the chances that some panicked customer will jump up and run in front of your line of fire just as you pull the trigger? Even if everything goes well and you take out the bad guy, are you willing to spend the night in jail, have your firearm confiscated, lose your job, spend $100,000 in legal fees defending yourself? These are all things every CCW person needs to think about now, before they find themselves in that situation. In the case of defending my own life, the answer is simple, the night in jail, loss of my gun, and $100,000 in legal fees is a reasonable exchange to still be breathing. While I wouldn't stand by and let people be executed (such as a Va. Tech incident, for example), I would be hesitant to open fire in any situation where MY life is not in immediate danger.

That's what I meant about judgment call. It's 100% up to you, because as a CCW holder, you're in control of the decision to use deadly force or not. My point is to use good judgement. The very last thing I want to happen, aside from all the legal issues, is to be responsible for injuring or killing a third party innocent (whether from my bullet or the felon returning fire at me in a shootout). So in the case where there is a significant risk of that, vs. the possibility that the robber will leave peacefully with the money and everyone survives uninjured, I'm staying cool and out of the way. Your judgement may vary.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 11:40
The point that I was trying to make about using good judgement in a given situation is this. In any situation, would drawing your weapon make the situation better or worse? Would firing your weapon make the situation better or worse?
We can certainly agree on that. Unfortunately, many past discussions here regarding intervene/comply in a robbery scenario have indicated that analysis is a bit problematic for many.

Warp
07-23-2011, 12:11
In the street fight, the participants have already established poor judgement and stupidity. If you wanted to get involved, do what the tan shorts guy did and wade in with fists and kung fu.

I don't think engaging in hand to hand fighting, against multiple opponents, is such a good idea. Add a gun on your person and it is probably an even worse idea.

TDC20
07-23-2011, 13:06
I don't think engaging in hand to hand fighting, against multiple opponents, is such a good idea. Add a gun on your person and it is probably an even worse idea.

I agree with you 100%. In fact, in this instance, if tan shorts had not intervened, and I was unarmed, I would have felt obligated to step in while yelling "THE POLICE ARE COMING!!! THE POLICE ARE ON THE WAY!!!" and (probably foolishly) attempted to stop the severe beating of red shorts, as he could have easily been beaten to death or permanently disabled. However, having a concealed firearm on my person would actually prevent me from getting involved in this one.

BTW, any of the onlookers could have yelled "THE POLICE ARE COMING!" or "HERE COME THE POLICE!!!" and that may have been all the involvement it took to get the idiots to stop fighting and run.

Big Wes
07-24-2011, 16:37
That video was pretty exciting, the only thing that would have made it better is if the two girls got kicked also.

As far as getting involved, not me I'm to old for that crap, I'd step away a be a good witness to the situation though.

SCmasterblaster
07-24-2011, 21:19
I don't want to get mixed up in some gang rivalry. However, I have stepped in to help a guy and his wife who were with two kids while being assaulted.



That was messed up I couldn't tell who was on whose side. No way would I get involved in that.



Good work, Mister.

BFN
07-26-2011, 21:05
If I was not involved, I would avoid. If I was a target, I would run, the best defense for a street fight. A couple nights a week at the track would be more beneficial than a couple of nights at the range in this situation. This is from a person who worked as a big city bouncer and broke up bar fights almost every night in the 1970's. Intervening in a street fight is a good way to get yourself killed, any one of those people could have pulled a gun, from behind you.

poodleshooter1
07-26-2011, 21:26
Many people are saying the guy that was getting beat up might not be the victim, but in reality, in the eye of the law he is. Regardless of what happened off video, he was running away from them, they chased him, and ganged up on him, then proceeded to ASSAULT him. Regardless of what he did to get attacked, he is the victim.

poodleshooter1
07-26-2011, 21:41
I'm convinced that 98% of the adult males on this forum are white collared, "Mike Brady's" and have never actually been involved in a fist fight of any kind. Sad really. I could never imagine what life would be like having to wonder "if" I had what it took to protect myself without a handgun. I would hate to only feel empowered when armed (what I think occurs more often than not here and on other gun forums). Shame.

Man I like your posts more and more. It is very sad indeed that most here have probably never gone hand to hand in their lives.

Warp
07-26-2011, 22:19
Man I like your posts more and more. It is very sad indeed that most here have probably never gone hand to hand in their lives.

Interesting. You think it is sad that, in your opinion, most guys have avoided fights?