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cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 12:33
Over in this thread:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355957

someone mentions that Buffalo Bore has a ".32 ACP +P" round. Of course, there is not +P standard for .32 ACP, so all that means is an overloaded .32 ACP round.

In their tech data and FAQ it becomes pretty obvious that they've done no extensive metallurgical failure testing. They have no idea how many rounds of this crap you can shoot through a given handgun before it blows up in your face.

About all they can say is "we've never heard of any problems," and "the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it. "

That's a pretty vague frickin' standard to trust with life and limb: "don't go plinking with it."

Bottom line: it's beyond spec. and if you shoot to much of it you're probably going to experience a dramatic failure.

That failure point may be completely different for a 50-year-old PPK, a 1-year-old P32 and a 20-year-old Beretta. You don't know. The round that makes it go boom could be the first, the 10th, the 50th. All you know is that it's more than your gun was designed to handle and eventually you'll have to pay the piper.

Kel-Tec specifically advises against the ammo:

"We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore."

The fact that they offer this ammo makes me distrust them as a company.

RYT 2BER
07-20-2011, 12:36
Well it is kind of ridiculous... .32 is pretty anemic so if a person isnt happy with it, they should just step up to a bigger caliber vs overloading it..

JMO

fnfalman
07-20-2011, 12:37
What do you want them to do? Test every gun on the market with their ammo until something breaks?

Their ammo is expensive. How many rounds of their ammo is the typical person going to spend money on and shoot through their guns?

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 12:38
Well it is kind of ridiculous... .32 is pretty anemic so if a person isnt happy with it, they should just step up to a bigger caliber vs overloading it..

JMO

Exactly. Respect the responsible limits of the caliber.

fnfalman
07-20-2011, 12:39
Exactly. Respect the responsible limits of the caliber.

So, there should be no +P loading for any caliber?

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 12:40
What do you want them to do? Test every gun on the market with their ammo until something breaks?

Their ammo is expensive. How many rounds of their ammo is the typical person going to spend money on and shoot through their guns?

No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 12:43
So, there should be no +P loading for any caliber?

God, no, that's not what I'm saying. There are SAAMI standard for +P loads in some calibers. Manufacturers make guns tested to standards to confidently label them ".38 Special +P" or "9mm +P."

No such standard exists for .32 ACP (or .380 ACP, another of their "+P" offerings). I doubt they can point to a single manufacturer that is comfortable with loading those rounds to those pressures in their guns, and it's reckless of them to put it on the market.

joel_conley
07-20-2011, 12:44
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=533458&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Ammunition%20-%20Centerfire%20Handgun%20-%20Self%20Defense-_-PriceCompListing-_-533458


Buffalo Bore Ammunition 40 S&W +P 155 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20

Zombie Steve
07-20-2011, 12:45
Well, their niche in the market is top end loads for a given caliber. So on the one hand, it doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, I'm a great believer that if you need more performance, get a bigger gun and load it to modest pressures.

Scared_of_zombies
07-20-2011, 12:56
Some people want to wring out every ounce of performance from the gun they carry, not simply carry a larger gun. Doing this comes with inherent risks. If you understand those risks you can evaluate if they are acceptable to you and your situation. Will an extra 100-150 f.p.s. make a noticeable difference in the target you shoot? For me the answer is, not likely, and thats why I haven't taken the plunge with buffalo bore.

Some people feel that such a difference in performance is worth the slight risk of catastrophic failure. I respect their decision, but for now the decision for me differs from theirs.

Bilbo Bagins
07-20-2011, 13:00
For the record Kel Tec also advises not to Use Cor-bon ammo in the P32 as well because its a little hot. The P32 is a >7oz gun that is made out of plastic and aluminum, and some steel. Give them a break :rofl:

DEADEYEGUY
07-20-2011, 13:19
Some of the .32 and .380 ammo is not anemic. Amemic compared to a 10mm? Yes. But I've had some Spanish military .32 and .380 that was obviously a max load for those calibers. Military ammo is loaded hot to help to be certain auto's cycle properly. I fired some out of a couple of my small .32's and .380's not knowing how potent it was. Damn it stung!
It didn't blow the gun up but I wouldn't run much through one of the little .32's or .380's. It's probably fine in the near full sized .32's and .380's. But a bit much for the small guns. And no matter what the caliber "anemic" or not an overcharged load will blow a gun up. I had a .380 go from some Georgia Arms fmj stuff that was not listed as hot.
Glad I had my safety glasses on. I've used Georgia Arms for years and up until that point never had a problem. I called them up and they made a bug fanfare out of all the things they were going to do. In the end they did nothing. As a courtesy to me Kel Tec rebuilt the gun for me. They certainly didn't have to. But if you dance to close to the edge with any caliber it can be dangerous.

Tony Rumore
07-20-2011, 13:29
I wouldn't call it irresponsible. You can decide if you want to shoot it in your gun or not.

Are you saying that you don't trust your own judgement when decided which ammo to fire through your gun?

Do you need the safety police to make these decisions on your behalf?

Tony

Spiffums
07-20-2011, 13:43
For the record Kel Tec also advises not to Use Cor-bon ammo in the P32 as well because its a little hot. The P32 is a >7oz gun that is made out of plastic and aluminum, and some steel. Give them a break :rofl:

They also say not to use 9mm+P in the P11/PF9s.

BobbyT
07-20-2011, 13:49
They also say not to use 9mm+P in the P11/PF9s.

No they don't, they say not to use it all the time.

IE fill up with cheap stuff at the range, and keep the self defense rounds for carry--fitting nicely with the pistol's design.

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 14:06
I wouldn't call it irresponsible. You can decide if you want to shoot it in your gun or not.

Are you saying that you don't trust your own judgement when decided which ammo to fire through your gun?

Do you need the safety police to make these decisions on your behalf?

Tony

I'm not advocating that they be forced not to sell it, no. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to discuss it on a public forum does it?

I can label something irresponsible (because I think running that stuff through any gun is an accident waiting to happen), but still leave it to people to make their own decisions, can't I?

I'm not one of those who thinks that the right solution to every problem is a law.

I use the term irresponsible, because if I was in their shoes, and was thinking of selling some hot .32 ACP, I'd feel uncomfortable selling it to strangers not knowing if they were well-informed enough to know what they were getting into.

I guess being ill-informed is its own punishment, but I'd still feel guilty if I found out later the guy was missing a finger because he didn't realize he shouldn't put that hot ammo through his little aluminum and plastic mousegun.

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 14:08
For the record Kel Tec also advises not to Use Cor-bon ammo in the P32 as well because its a little hot. The P32 is a >7oz gun that is made out of plastic and aluminum, and some steel. Give them a break :rofl:

And indeed, I do give them (and myself) a break by only putting standard pressure ammo through it. Fortunately I know better.

ETA: The Walther PPK is a much more solidly-built .32 auto -- I have an email out to them, and I'll be curious what their opinion is about running .32 +P through it.

Berto
07-20-2011, 14:09
It could also be that they load the .32/.380acp up to maximum std pressure and simply label it +P to cover their asses. As was said, there are european and spanish loads in these rounds that could very well be 'overpressure' too, like Santa Barbara stuff.
It would be one thing to accuse them of being irresponsible if there were hoardes of folks coming out with KB'd guns, but there isn't....and BB does state their intended use for the ammo.
At some point people gotta think for their friggin selves here.

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 14:18
It could also be that they load the .32/.380acp up to maximum std pressure and simply label it +P to cover their asses. As was said, there are european and spanish loads in these rounds that could very well be 'overpressure' too, like Santa Barbara stuff.
It would be one thing to accuse them of being irresponsible if there were hoardes of folks coming out with KB'd guns, but there isn't....and BB does state their intended use for the ammo.
At some point people gotta think for their friggin selves here.

True, but I'll bet the sample size is sufficiently small that we're not likely to hear much.

They advertise the rounds having almost double the muzzle energy of standard pressure rounds, so I have to think that they're loaded up to more than max std pressure.

Anyway, I'm not saying "write your Congressman" I just posted this as a heads-up. Not everyone who goes to pick up a box of ammo is necessarily very well informed. I'm sure plenty of people pick it up thinking "Well, if it wasn't safe, they wouldn't sell it."

And I bet it's not so unsafe that you're literally taking your life in your hands with every shot -- the guns are built with some tolerance for over-pressure, but really, I just like my guns too much to beat them up like that. A .32 Auto is what it is. If I want the muzzle energies they're advertising, I carry a .380 or .38 Sp.

Hotsteelcoldbeer
07-20-2011, 15:53
Cloud, I think you are on to something.

ScottieG59
07-20-2011, 15:56
I think the biggest issue with the loads is that the slide not open while the pressure is still high. Generally, I think you will need a locked breach to use this ammo. It works fine when tested in my Kahr P380 but at a buck a round, it is not fired often. I just tested it. I bought some 32 as well, in error. I do not expect to ever get a 32. I suppose a stronger recoil spring would help slow the opening of the chamber before the pressure has gone down.

I would never use the higher pressure ammo in an older gun or ones without locked breaches.

Deaf Smith
07-20-2011, 16:12
Since almost all .32s are blowback designs, if BB says they are safe, they are safe.

Deaf

fnfalman
07-20-2011, 16:28
I use the term irresponsible, because if I was in their shoes, and was thinking of selling some hot .32 ACP, I'd feel uncomfortable selling it to strangers not knowing if they were well-informed enough to know what they were getting into.

So, you won't advocate selling, say, a $5000 Korth .357 Magnum revolver to strangers whom you do not know if they have the knowledge and skills to own a handgun, much less a Magnum caliber handgun?

I guess being ill-informed is its own punishment, but I'd still feel guilty if I found out later the guy was missing a finger because he didn't realize he shouldn't put that hot ammo through his little aluminum and plastic mousegun.

It's good that you have a conscience. But just because you have a conscience and morality (your standards of morality), it doesn't mean that Buffalo Bore is irresponsible. They load hot rounds to cater to the market demand.

Should Ferrari make a slow car so that novice drivers who can afford these cars won't kill themselves?

fnfalman
07-20-2011, 16:32
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.

God, no, that's not what I'm saying. There are SAAMI standard for +P loads in some calibers. Manufacturers make guns tested to standards to confidently label them ".38 Special +P" or "9mm +P."

Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

Kegs
07-20-2011, 16:38
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

I have loaded above SAAMI specs and treat them like the grain of salt they are.

Proceed with caution. Go look up Vernon Speer's old reloading manuals and you will see what real hand loading is all about.

If you like rules, then YOU stick to them, but I don't and I don't tolerate nancys who try and push their differing values on me. Anyone with half a sack will feel the same way.

Buffalo Bore is one of the few ammo manufacturers out there who actually loads to their advertised velocities.

If its anyone who is irresponsible its most of the commercial ammo manufacturers who say 1250 fps when actual tests show more like 1180 fps.

false advertising with questionable reasons why the figures don't stack up.

Buffalo Bore = good.

If you don't like the words +p, then don't buy it.

Vote with your wallet.

srwm4
07-20-2011, 16:47
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

Indeed, SAAMI standards do exist for a reason. Actually, a minimum of 2 different standards per caliber exist - a standard service pressure, and a proof pressure. All manufacturers test each and every gun they make against the proof pressure, to ensure that it's safe. So as long as Buffalo Bore's loads don't exceed the proof pressures, it should be fine if the gun is in good condition and has been well-maintained.

Will a steady diet of proof rounds shorten the life of the gun? Absolutely. But you should be able to see the stress before a catastrophic failure occurs if you're maintaining your weapon well. And if you've been warned that the rounds you've been firing will subject the weapon to excess stress over time, such maintenance and regular inspection should be a high priority for you.

srwm4
07-20-2011, 16:52
Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

S&W J-Frame .38Spls all have +P engraved on the frame.

eracer
07-20-2011, 16:53
Well it is kind of ridiculous... .32 is pretty anemic so if a person isnt happy with it, they should just step up to a bigger caliber vs overloading it..

JMO
First post nails it.

wjv
07-20-2011, 16:57
I have some .357 (180 grain - I think) ammo that is marked CARBINE ONLY - NOT FOR USE IN HANDGUNS

It's beyond SAMMI specs for hot .357s. If you know the restrictions and use it in the proper firearm (Marlin) what's the problem?

Will hot .32s make the gun explode, or just wear the gun out a little faster? There was a time when people were told to use standard .38s for practice in their 'J' frames, and hot .38s for carry because if you shot to many hot loads, the gun would wear out a lot faster.

Gino
07-20-2011, 16:58
It could also be that they load the .32/.380acp up to maximum std pressure and simply label it +P to cover their asses.

Also, take a look at an old reloading book. What we consider a max load used to be a regular load back then. Hell, many US manufacturers would consider NATO 9mm ammo to be +P ammo , if made in the US. There are quite a few examples of European ammo being MUCH hotter than US made stuff. SAAMI is an organization that was founded to protect the ammo manufacturers (partially from lawsuits). And they have done so by downloading our ammo so it is "less dangerous".

JMHO,
Gino

Russ in PA
07-20-2011, 17:00
I have loaded above SAAMI specs and treat them like the grain of salt they are.

Proceed with caution. Go look up Vernon Speer's old reloading manuals and you will see what real hand loading is all about.

If you like rules, then YOU stick to them, but I don't and I don't tolerate nancys who try and push their differing values on me. Anyone with half a sack will feel the same way.

Buffalo Bore is one of the few ammo manufacturers out there who actually loads to their advertised velocities.

If its anyone who is irresponsible its most of the commercial ammo manufacturers who say 1250 fps when actual tests show more like 1180 fps.

false advertising with questionable reasons why the figures don't stack up.

Buffalo Bore = good.

If you don't like the words +p, then don't buy it.

Vote with your wallet.


:agree:

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 17:30
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.



Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

Check it out. Right there on the barrel. Sorry it's kind of hard to see. I'd snap a picture of my own, but it's at my daughter's house. It's a Model 637 from some little off-brand company called "Smith & Wesson" or something like that:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/smith-wesson.jpg

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 17:34
I have loaded above SAAMI specs and treat them like the grain of salt they are.

Proceed with caution. Go look up Vernon Speer's old reloading manuals and you will see what real hand loading is all about.

If you like rules, then YOU stick to them, but I don't and I don't tolerate nancys who try and push their differing values on me. Anyone with half a sack will feel the same way.

Buffalo Bore is one of the few ammo manufacturers out there who actually loads to their advertised velocities.

If its anyone who is irresponsible its most of the commercial ammo manufacturers who say 1250 fps when actual tests show more like 1180 fps.

false advertising with questionable reasons why the figures don't stack up.

Buffalo Bore = good.

If you don't like the words +p, then don't buy it.

Vote with your wallet.

oh "nancys" and "anyone with half a sack." It's always fun to see who in a thread first resorts to insults. If you feel like a post by some stranger on a gun board is "push[ing] their differing values on me" then ... I guess you better grow a sack, Nancy.

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 17:44
Indeed, SAAMI standards do exist for a reason. Actually, a minimum of 2 different standards per caliber exist - a standard service pressure, and a proof pressure. All manufacturers test each and every gun they make against the proof pressure, to ensure that it's safe. So as long as Buffalo Bore's loads don't exceed the proof pressures, it should be fine if the gun is in good condition and has been well-maintained.

Will a steady diet of proof rounds shorten the life of the gun? Absolutely. But you should be able to see the stress before a catastrophic failure occurs if you're maintaining your weapon well. And if you've been warned that the rounds you've been firing will subject the weapon to excess stress over time, such maintenance and regular inspection should be a high priority for you.

Thanks, that's good info. I searched around (oddly enough, this thread is already on the second page of Google results for 'buffalo bore .32 "+P" pressure')

I found a thread (http://elsiepeaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4218.0)that states:

"Tim Sandels (owner of Buffalo Bore) has informed us that the pressure that he loads to is less than the minimum SAAMI proof pressure for .380 ACP"

But the thread overall is very "iffy" on the wisdom of shooting the .380 +Ps through an LCP.

By all means, everyone make their own decision. Not worth the wear and tear to me.

wjv
07-20-2011, 18:31
Actually there was a time when people were told NOT to shoot NATO 9mm surplus. . Thankfully most guns now-days have better metallurgy and can stand up to hotter ammo.

TexAg
07-20-2011, 18:52
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

Problem is, Ruger doesn't rate their guns like this; they are not "specifically" rated such as the S&W .38s (and the reason they are rated +p is because older ones basically weren't could not handle much of it). Now the industry and reloaders know the Blackhawks will handle it, and I myself have used Buffalo Bore in my old Vaquero. For the most part I don't think they are worth the money in the smaller callibers per performance gain.

fnfalman
07-20-2011, 19:05
Check it out. Right there on the barrel. Sorry it's kind of hard to see. I'd snap a picture of my own, but it's at my daughter's house. It's a Model 637 from some little off-brand company called "Smith & Wesson" or something like that:]

Here are two Colts of mine that are 2011 production. I don't see any +P stamped on the barrel. No +P on this Springfield Armory .45ACP either.


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Colt%2038%20Super/Colt38Super024.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Colt%20100%20Anniversary/Colt100YearsAnniversary034.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Guns/M19M1911Loaded023.jpg

Reb 56
07-20-2011, 19:35
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.



Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.
My S&W 642 has 38 spl +P stamped on the barrel.

Shasta McNasty
07-20-2011, 20:08
buffalo bore is obscenely overpriced garbage, especially their ammo that's loaded with crap montana gold hollowpoints.

their "+P" 32acp and 40cal loads offer no better performance over what's less than half the price.

RWBlue
07-20-2011, 20:32
Over in this thread:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355957

someone mentions that Buffalo Bore has a ".32 ACP +P" round. Of course, there is not +P standard for .32 ACP, so all that means is an overloaded .32 ACP round.

In their tech data and FAQ it becomes pretty obvious that they've done no extensive metallurgical failure testing. They have no idea how many rounds of this crap you can shoot through a given handgun before it blows up in your face.

About all they can say is "we've never heard of any problems," and "the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it. "

That's a pretty vague frickin' standard to trust with life and limb: "don't go plinking with it."

Bottom line: it's beyond spec. and if you shoot to much of it you're probably going to experience a dramatic failure.

That failure point may be completely different for a 50-year-old PPK, a 1-year-old P32 and a 20-year-old Beretta. You don't know. The round that makes it go boom could be the first, the 10th, the 50th. All you know is that it's more than your gun was designed to handle and eventually you'll have to pay the piper.

Kel-Tec specifically advises against the ammo:

"We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore."

The fact that they offer this ammo makes me distrust them as a company.

No.
I am sure they tested.
I am sure the lawyers have their input.

I am sure that most people will not shoot enough to make a difference.

Reb 56
07-20-2011, 20:52
I've shot a few Buffalo Bore 380 auto +P 100 grn hardcast F.N. in my LCP don't feel that hot. There has been a long standing controversy over using FMJ or JHP in a .380. I load the 1st rnd the Buffalo Bore then 6 90 grn Gold Dots. Just me don't know for sure if it will be effective or not.

ChuteTheMall
07-20-2011, 21:15
... but don't go plinking with it. "



Dang, there goes my weekend.
I was going to buy a brick of BB and go plinking with my P32.
:upeyes:

You guys should have been around KTOG back in the days of Golden Loki's .32 magnum "Mouse Mag" P32 adventures. Brass was custom made from .30 carbine brass, springs were modified, reloading data was redacted to protect the innocent. Kinda hush-hush today.
:alex:

themighty9mm
07-20-2011, 21:52
buffalo bore is obscenely overpriced garbage, especially their ammo that's loaded with crap montana gold hollowpoints.

their "+P" 32acp and 40cal loads offer no better performance over what's less than half the price.
Buffalo bore is over priced. But montana gold crap? Since when? They are a pretty good quality bullet

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 21:53
Dang, there goes my weekend.
I was going to buy a brick of BB and go plinking with my P32.
:upeyes:


You laugh, but "Hold my beer and watch this!" is the state song of Ohio. I know any number of idiots I wouldn't put it past. :)

cloudbuster
07-20-2011, 21:56
Here are two Colts of mine that are 2011 production. I don't see any +P stamped on the barrel. No +P on this Springfield Armory .45ACP either.


OK, I concede. :)

texanredraider
07-20-2011, 22:07
My S&W 642 has 38 spl +P stamped on the barrel.

Taurus rates their revolvers as .38 special +p as well. Here is one model from their website as an example:


<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Model: 850SS2</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Finish: Stainless Steel</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Status: Discontinued</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Caliber: .38 SPL +P RATED</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Grips: Rubber</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>UPC: 7-25327-34110-9</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Capacity: 5 </TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Weight: 23.1 oz</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Rate of Twist: 1:16.5"</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Barrel Length: 2"</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Construction: Steel</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Height: 4.28"</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Frame: Small</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Width: 1.346"</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Action: DAO</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Front Sight: Fixed</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Grooves: 6</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Safety: Transfer Bar</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Trigger Type: Smooth</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Order #: 2-850129CIA</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>MSRP: $498.00 </TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Rear Sight: Fixed</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD><TD height=20 vAlign=top align=left>Grooves Turn: Right

</TD><TD vAlign=top width=5 align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
TAURUS 856 .38 SPECIAL +P IN STAINLESS
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=614&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

RWBlue
07-21-2011, 06:17
Buffalo bore is over priced. But montana gold crap? Since when? They are a pretty good quality bullet

My understanding is that they are ok, but at a dollar a round I expect premium bullets.

Since they are pushing velocity, I would spec out a bonded bullet and for some, I would want a thicker jacket.

happyguy
07-21-2011, 07:44
Over in this thread:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355957

someone mentions that Buffalo Bore has a ".32 ACP +P" round. Of course, there is not +P standard for .32 ACP, so all that means is an overloaded .32 ACP round.

In their tech data and FAQ it becomes pretty obvious that they've done no extensive metallurgical failure testing. They have no idea how many rounds of this crap you can shoot through a given handgun before it blows up in your face.

About all they can say is "we've never heard of any problems," and "the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it. "

That's a pretty vague frickin' standard to trust with life and limb: "don't go plinking with it."

Bottom line: it's beyond spec. and if you shoot to much of it you're probably going to experience a dramatic failure.

That failure point may be completely different for a 50-year-old PPK, a 1-year-old P32 and a 20-year-old Beretta. You don't know. The round that makes it go boom could be the first, the 10th, the 50th. All you know is that it's more than your gun was designed to handle and eventually you'll have to pay the piper.

Kel-Tec specifically advises against the ammo:

"We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore."

The fact that they offer this ammo makes me distrust them as a company.

Their disclaimers are easy enough to understand unless there is a reading comprehension issue.

BB ammo is clearly loaded hot.

If you don't think it's safe, don't use it.

Those that are willing to risk it, more power to them.

What you put in your gun is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

Don't go crying to a civil attorney if something bad happens.

We need to stop dumbing down everything for the sake of the stupid.

Just my take on it.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Shasta McNasty
07-21-2011, 08:40
Buffalo bore is over priced. But montana gold crap? Since when? They are a pretty good quality bullet

:freak:

whitebread
07-21-2011, 08:51
indeed, saami standards do exist for a reason. Actually, a minimum of 2 different standards per caliber exist - a standard service pressure, and a proof pressure. All manufacturers test each and every gun they make against the proof pressure, to ensure that it's safe. So as long as buffalo bore's loads don't exceed the proof pressures, it should be fine if the gun is in good condition and has been well-maintained.

Will a steady diet of proof rounds shorten the life of the gun? Absolutely. But you should be able to see the stress before a catastrophic failure occurs if you're maintaining your weapon well. And if you've been warned that the rounds you've been firing will subject the weapon to excess stress over time, such maintenance and regular inspection should be a high priority for you.

qftt!

Berto
07-21-2011, 09:14
Montana Golds are very accurate bullets, but they aren't noted for reliable expansion.
The stuff is expensive, but it's very good ammo and lives up to the chrono advertisements, unlike most.
There was a shortage of Gold Dot bullets at one time, and BB (along with others) were substituting MG and Sierra bullets in their JHP loads.
Verify what boolits you're getting, you'll be OK.

Shasta McNasty
07-21-2011, 10:04
Montana Golds are very accurate bullets, but they aren't noted for reliable expansion.
The stuff is expensive, but it's very good ammo and lives up to the chrono advertisements, unlike most.
There was a shortage of Gold Dot bullets at one time, and BB (along with others) were substituting MG and Sierra bullets in their JHP loads.
Verify what boolits you're getting, you'll be OK.


the extra energy imparted by BB 9/40/45 ammo is meaningless. HST, at less than half the cost is a better performer.

for 10mm, swampfox ammo meets advertised specs and uses gold dot bullets.

Berto
07-21-2011, 10:37
the extra energy imparted by BB 9/40/45 ammo is meaningless. HST, at less than half the cost is a better performer.

for 10mm, swampfox ammo meets advertised specs and uses gold dot bullets.

I agree for the most part, Swampfox is good stuff.
9/40/45 are also not appreciably different than what is available from other makers. I can get hot enough loads in those rounds from Remfedchester to negate much advantage.
Buffalo Bore built itself around revolver rounds, there it offers advantages....especially if you seek hardcast game loads or 'real' 38sp.

Shasta McNasty
07-21-2011, 11:32
I agree for the most part, Swampfox is good stuff.
9/40/45 are also not appreciably different than what is available from other makers. I can get hot enough loads in those rounds from Remfedchester to negate much advantage.
Buffalo Bore built itself around revolver rounds, there it offers advantages....especially if you seek hardcast game loads or 'real' 38sp.


yeah BB's hardcast loads are good, but still obscenely overpriced. i don't know if you've been on swampfox's site lately, he offers hard cast rounds too. that's where i'd get them. they're still pricey of course, but much cheaper than BB. :)

Berto
07-21-2011, 11:43
Hopefully SF will make some .38sp. I look at their 10mm stuff all the time, may spring for some 155gr XTP's one of these days.
I just like the fact there are outfits like BB or SF making ammo you simply can't get from the big makers.

Nakanokalronin
07-21-2011, 11:52
There are plenty of other well made HP defense rounds in all calibers from many manufactures. If the Buffalo Bore ammo seems to hot or to expensive, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

Warp
07-21-2011, 13:29
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition?

Does the writing on the gun count?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/6afcce21.jpg

Novocaine
07-21-2011, 16:29
There are no SAAMI specs for 9mm +P+. The irresponsible Federal/Speer, Remington, Winchester, Cor-Bon and others are producing it. Irresponsible distributors sell it by truckloads, irresponsible police departments have it as a standard issue and irresponsible individuals such as myself use it as for HD and amusement. If some idiot wants to make it a daily practice round for his collectible WW1 Luger, more power to him.

Irresponsible practice would be to mislabel the product. You’re being mislead? Lied to?

Are you under a contractual obligation to use BB ammo? Don't trust it, don't buy it.

Think it was Peter Pi of Cor-Bon who when asked about terminal advantages of “light and fast” loads Cor-Bon is famous for said “I have no idea. People want it, I make it”.

You’re supposed to be over 18 to buy ammo, no?

fnfalman
07-21-2011, 16:40
Does the writing on the gun count?


That's ONE manufacturer on ONE frame of gun.

See any +P on these?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Guns/2022.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Guns/9mmand38Super.jpg

nelsone
07-21-2011, 18:07
I just bought .45ACP BB for the first time - it hasn't even arrived yet.
I got it because I didn't want the expense and hassle of getting a magnum wheelgun just for the woods. I already had a 6.6" SS LWD barrel for a G21SF, so I just have to add a #24 spring and I'm ready to shoot it.

I bought the BB because it's the only hard-cast lead round that I could find, but also it's plain wrong to claim that hot loads "don't do anything" to increase the energy of .45ACP.

Out of a long barrel, the +P rounds add a tremendous amount of velocity over standard loads:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
I went to the trouble of plotting and fitting some of these data, and found that:
• Fed 230gr. increased 23% in energy in going from my 3.78" G36 to my 6.6" LWD barrel.
• Cor-Bon 230gr. +P increased 31% in energy from 3.78" to 6.6" barrels.
• Cor-Bon 230gr. +P exits a 6.6" barrel with 38% more energy than Fed 230gr. out of the same barrel.
These are significant increases in my book.

I'll test it out on some unsuspecting stacks of phone books, but then the BB stays in the drawer until I head out into the wilderness.

Aceman
07-21-2011, 18:36
I am almost certain that the manual for my USP says +p is acceptable, and perhaps even +p+....

Don't care enough to go check.

It is an interesting proposition. I wonder if anyone has blown up a gun with BB and tried to sue either BB or the weapon manufacturer?

I agree it should clearly be marked, and that once you choose to go there - it's all on you.

fnfalman
07-21-2011, 20:52
I just bought .45ACP BB for the first time - it hasn't even arrived yet.
I got it because I didn't want the expense and hassle of getting a magnum wheelgun just for the woods. I already had a 6.6" SS LWD barrel for a G21SF, so I just have to add a #24 spring and I'm ready to shoot it.

I bought the BB because it's the only hard-cast lead round that I could find, but also it's plain wrong to claim that hot loads "don't do anything" to increase the energy of .45ACP.

Out of a long barrel, the +P rounds add a tremendous amount of velocity over standard loads:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
I went to the trouble of plotting and fitting some of these data, and found that:
• Fed 230gr. increased 23% in energy in going from my 3.78" G36 to my 6.6" LWD barrel.
• Cor-Bon 230gr. +P increased 31% in energy from 3.78" to 6.6" barrels.
• Cor-Bon 230gr. +P exits a 6.6" barrel with 38% more energy than Fed 230gr. out of the same barrel.
These are significant increases in my book.

I'll test it out on some unsuspecting stacks of phone books, but then the BB stays in the drawer until I head out into the wilderness.

If you gun isn't stamped +P or +P+ or not mentioned in the manufacturer's manuals, you might blow up the gun and hurt yourself. Then you can sue BB for being irresponsible.

Warp
07-21-2011, 21:50
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition?


That's ONE manufacturer on ONE frame of gun.


Yup. It sure is. Which means it is exactly what you asked for.

halfmoonclip
07-21-2011, 22:12
It would be helpful if Saami were to agree what +P actually looked like in some of the smaller calibers.
Moon

nelsone
07-21-2011, 22:33
If you gun isn't stamped +P or +P+ or not mentioned in the manufacturer's manuals, you might blow up the gun and hurt yourself. Then you can sue BB for being irresponsible.

Modern firearms aren't that big a risk; it's excessive wear I'm concerned about, and that's why I'd only use the LWD barrel with it.

Warp
07-21-2011, 22:47
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition?

That's ONE manufacturer on ONE frame of gun.

See any +P on these?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Guns/2022.jpg

You want Sig Sauer to put "in writing" that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? Okay. Sure. Here you go:

http://www.sigsauer.com/customerservice/faq.aspx

"Can I use +P or +P+?
+P Ammo manufactured to SAAMI/CIP/NATO specs is fine to use as a defensive round or for occasional range use. Continual use of this round will make it necessary for more frequent service on the pistol. We do NOT recommend the use of any +P+ round. This may void your warranty. "

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/11b8d8f6.jpg

brisk21
07-21-2011, 22:50
They are just covering their butts. That ammo aint gonna hurt the gun. Just go shoot it!

hoffy
07-21-2011, 23:35
Deadeyeguy is right, I worked in a gun shop in the '80s-'90s, when the foreign military stuff was allowed back in, and we had some very hot Spanish 380 ball that wold wreck those new at the time pot metal Bryco 380s with one mags worth. We had to put up a sign warning people not to use that combination, and some got mad, because the Spanish ammo was the cheapest we had. My Interarms PPK handled a case of it fine.Egyptian 9mm ammo for their Helwan pistols was also very hot, especially considering the pistols did not inspire confidence, and that ammo was dirty and corrosive too.

I have been loading since the '70s and have a ton of manuals, some from the '50s and '60s even, and Gino is right, some loads are a lot hotter back then. I guess it could be changes in powder, but I doubt it.

I don't shoot a lot of +p just because I reload most of what I shoot and do not like loading most guns hot unless they were meant for it, like the 460 S&W. That said, most of my carry ammo is either +p or powerful to begin with(10mm Silvertips for example, and the Ranger T series 165 40, or 357 SIG)) . Hot loads through HK USPs do not worry me, nor do they through Glocks.(though the USP seems beefier, to handle hot loads, the G-20 certainly is more powerful) Others, I try to use common sense, my Detective Special 2nd issue has had at least 250 +p FBI rounds in the 25 years I have had it, and it is still quite tight. A prewar police positive , I don't think I would run any. These companies must be making money=people are buying it and it seems we would be hearing about it if there were a lot of ka-booms. I've used Cor-bon 380 +p through my PPK for years without worry because it is not as hot as that Spanish stuff. When reloading I rarely use very hot loads, and when I do I work them up to a particular gun. SAAMI exists for a reason, but +p ammo came about in a time when gun choices were much more limited than what we have offered today. Common sense will hopefully prevail, and it is nice to have the option of having a factory load that is warmish for carry purposes. (why do you think LEOs get +p+ 9mm, to get more out of a round rather than swap out an entire armory of sidearms.) I remember when we were kids before I reloaded being excited at finding Super Vel, the idea has been around a long time......

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 07:36
Yup. It sure is. Which means it is exactly what you asked for.

What about other +P calibers that BB loaded? Will I need to worry if I were to shoot 9mm +P or .38 Super +P out of my guns and they might blow up?:upeyes:

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 07:38
From your own quote.

http://www.sigsauer.com/customerservice/faq.aspx

"Can I use +P or +P+?
+P Ammo manufactured to SAAMI/CIP/NATO specs is fine to use as a defensive round or for occasional range use. Continual use of this round will make it necessary for more frequent service on the pistol. We do NOT recommend the use of any +P+ round. This may void your warranty. "

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 07:59
What about other +P calibers that BB loaded? Will I need to worry if I were to shoot 9mm +P or .38 Super +P out of my guns and they might blow up?:upeyes:

i think you're (I hope not deliberately) blurring the point. In some calibers, such as 9mm and .38 Special, +P loadings are a recognized industry and marketplace standard and there are many (sure, not all) manufacturers who express comfort with those loads.

However, for .32 and .380 (which is where I initially started on the discussion), +P rounds aren't a part of the market or industry. I've received responses from both Kel-Tec and Walther America (Smith & Wesson) to specifically not use Buffalo Bore .32 Auto +P.

In risk assessment, they say there are "Things you know, things you know you don't know, and things you don't know you don't know."

What I know I don't know is metallurgy or mechanical engineering. I'm not a metallurgical engineer, and thus I think it's safe to assume that there are things about metallurgy and mechanical engineering that I don't even know I don't know.

Sure, the companies are trying to protect themselves and can be expected to respond conservatively, but given what I know I don't know, I think it would be foolish of me to think I'm capable of making a better call on the issue than firearms designers and manufacturers with decades -- sometimes more than a century -- of relevant experience.

I'm equally sure that not everyone here has the same set of "knowns" and "unknowns" that I do. There are probably metallurgists, engineers, firearms designers and people with decades of reloading experience here. I wouldn't presume to advise them or say that my choices should be theirs.

I have worked in support positions for very technical products, and I can tell you that one of the most frustrating things is trying to clean up the mess made by the customer who thinks he knows what he's doing so well that he thinks he doesn't need to listen to your advice. ;)

Fox
07-22-2011, 08:06
The .32 is anemic, get a bigger gun.

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 08:09
The .32 is anemic, get a bigger gun.

Very helpful. Thanks. How did I not think of that? :upeyes:

El_Ron1
07-22-2011, 08:10
What keeps these poor people from putting diesel in their gas tank when it's sold along side gasoline?

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 08:15
i think you're (I hope not deliberately) blurring the point. In some calibers, such as 9mm and .38 Special, +P loadings are a recognized industry and marketplace standard and there are many (sure, not all) manufacturers who express comfort with those loads.

However, for .32 and .380 (which is where I initially started on the discussion), +P rounds aren't a part of the market or industry. I've received responses from both Kel-Tec and Walther America (Smith & Wesson) to specifically not use Buffalo Bore .32 Auto +P.

So far, with the exception of the Smith&Wesson snubbie of current vintage, NO manufacturer had recommended the use of +P ammo in their guns.

In risk assessment, they say there are "Things you know, things you know you don't know, and things you don't know you don't know."

What I know I don't know is metallurgy or mechanical engineering. I'm not a metallurgical engineer, and thus I think it's safe to assume that there are things about metallurgy and mechanical engineering that I don't even know I don't know.

Sure, the companies are trying to protect themselves and can be expected to respond conservatively, but given what I know I don't know, I think it would be foolish of me to think I'm capable of making a better call on the issue than firearms designers and manufacturers with decades -- sometimes more than a century -- of relevant experience.

The same standards apply throughout. Unless a manufacturer actually recommended usage or stated unequivocally that their handguns are designed to be used with +P or +P+ ammo, then YOU as the OWNER and SHOOTER are wholly responsible when you deviate from their recommendations, be it .32ACP, .380ACP, .38Spl, ad nauseaum.

So, you either stick with the manufacturer's recommendations or you second guess them. Using a 9mm +P is second guessing the manufacturer just like using a .32 ACP +P.

I have worked in support positions for very technical products, and I can tell you that one of the most frustrating things is trying to clean up the mess made by the customer who thinks he knows what he's doing so well that he thinks he doesn't need to listen to your advice. ;)

Then heed the manufacturers' advices and lay off all +P ammunition of all calibers and all guns unless the manufacturers specifically mentioned that the guns are designed to be shot with said ammunition.

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 08:40
What keeps these poor people from putting diesel in their gas tank when it's sold along side gasoline?

Oh, the fact that it's not labeled as "Gasoline Plus" (heh) or "Gasoline Ultra?"

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 08:42
So far, with the exception of the Smith&Wesson snubbie of current vintage, NO manufacturer had recommended the use of +P ammo in their guns.



The same standards apply throughout. Unless a manufacturer actually recommended usage or stated unequivocally that their handguns are designed to be used with +P or +P+ ammo, then YOU as the OWNER and SHOOTER are wholly responsible when you deviate from their recommendations, be it .32ACP, .380ACP, .38Spl, ad nauseaum.

So, you either stick with the manufacturer's recommendations or you second guess them. Using a 9mm +P is second guessing the manufacturer just like using a .32 ACP +P.



Then heed the manufacturers' advices and lay off all +P ammunition of all calibers and all guns unless the manufacturers specifically mentioned that the guns are designed to be shot with said ammunition.

"NO manufacturer had recommended the use of +P ammo in their guns." Not true -- a previous poster just showed a statement from Sig saying +P is fine. I'm sure we can find others. We haven't done an exhaustive search.

Exactly what point is it you think you're arguing with me?

whitebread
07-22-2011, 09:08
What keeps these poor people from putting diesel in their gas tank when it's sold along side gasoline?

The diameter of the dispenser nozzle is larger for diesel and physically will not fit in. :tongueout:

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 09:25
Compare these three customer service responses and tell me if you can detect a difference in the tenor of the replies. I think they speak for themselves:

Walther America: (Smith & Wesson)

My question:
Does Walther regard it as safe to use Buffalo Bore's +P .32 ACP ammunition in the Walther PPK?

75 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 220 ft. lbs)

Answer:
We would not recommend using that brand of ammunition in your pistol.

Regards,

Dave



Kel-Tec:


My question:
Does Kel-Tec regard it as safe to use Buffalo Bore's +P .32 ACP ammunition in the Kel-Tec P32?

75 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 220 ft. lbs)

Answer:
Hi,

We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore.

Thanks,
Kel-Tec
Customer Service


Glock (on phone, because I couldn't find an email address):

Me: Is it OK if I use +P ammunication in my Glock 26?
Glock Rep: "Oh, yeah, +P is fine. We don't recommend a steady diet of it, but it's fine."

El_Ron1
07-22-2011, 09:54
The diameter of the dispenser nozzle is larger for diesel and physically will not fit in. :tongueout:

Then, there is no protection for a diesel user from the evil gasoline pump?

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 10:55
"NO manufacturer had recommended the use of +P ammo in their guns." Not true -- a previous poster just showed a statement from Sig saying +P is fine. I'm sure we can find others. We haven't done an exhaustive search.


You didn't see my post that I highlighted the section in the SIG manual where it said, "we do not recommend the use"?


Exactly what point is it you think you're arguing with me?

That Buffalo Bore is irresponsible for putting out .32 Auto +P but not irresponsible for putting out .38 Spl +P or 9mm +P or .45 ACP +P.

Either Buffalo Bore is irresponsible for putting out +P ammo, regardless of caliber, or they are not. And if they are irresponsible for putting out +P ammo, then so are the rest of the ammunition manufacturers who are putting out +P ammo.

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:01
How exactly does this statement from Kel-Tec make Buffalo Bore irresponsible? Did Buffalo Bore make this +P load specifically for use in Kel-Tec?

My question:
Does Kel-Tec regard it as safe to use Buffalo Bore's +P .32 ACP ammunition in the Kel-Tec P32?

75 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 220 ft. lbs)

Answer:
Hi,

We don’t recommend using any +P at all in our P32, specifically Buffalo Bore.

Thanks,
Kel-Tec
Customer Service

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:06
You didn't see my post that I highlighted the section in the SIG manual where it said, "we do not recommend the use"?


I think you're the one that didn't read it carefully. The specifically make a distinction between +P and +P+. In simple terms, they said "+P Good. +P+ Bad."

That Buffalo Bore is irresponsible for putting out .32 Auto +P but not irresponsible for putting out .38 Spl +P or 9mm +P or .45 ACP +P.

Either Buffalo Bore is irresponsible for putting out +P ammo, regardless of caliber, or they are not. And if they are irresponsible for putting out +P ammo, then so are the rest of the ammunition manufacturers who are putting out +P ammo.

You're really pushing for this to be an absolutist thing with the same answer for all calibers. The facts just don't support that.

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:11
I think you're the one that didn't read it carefully. The specifically make a distinction between +P and +P+. In simple terms, they said "+P Good. +P+ Bad."

Okay, what's +P+? Can you find that in SAAMI manual for me? At what point a +P becomes a +P+?

You're really pushing for this to be an absolutist thing with the same answer for all calibers. The facts just don't support that.

Why not? You make the claim that somehow .32 pistols can't handle +P ammo yet the rest of the handguns can handle +P just fine. :dunno:

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:12
How exactly does this statement from Kel-Tec make Buffalo Bore irresponsible? Did Buffalo Bore make this +P load specifically for use in Kel-Tec?

OK, you asked us to find you one manufacturer who specifically OK'd their guns for +P, and we showed you one, S&W, right on the barrels and info from Taurus, Glock and Sig, but you moved the goal posts because they don't all have it printed on the gun.

I'm going to give you a simple goal post, and I won't move it:

Provide me with one statement from one manufacturer publication or a service rep. or similar source that says they recommend even limited use of Buffalo Bore +P .32 ACP in their gun.

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:17
Okay, what's +P+? Can you find that in SAAMI manual for me? At what point a +P becomes a +P+?

Why don't you ask Sig, not me -- they're the ones that made the distinction.

This table (http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm) includes SAAMI pressure specs. for 9mm +P (and several other +P loads). I don't believe there are +P+ standards -- it just means "more than +P" so that may be why Sig doesn't feel comfortable endorsing it.

Why not? You make the claim that somehow .32 pistols can't handle +P ammo yet the rest of the handguns can handle +P just fine. :dunno:

Because the manufacturers themselves are making the claims that their guns can't handle .32 +P, not me. And they know more than I do.

ETA: the table in the above link for some reason leaves out the SAAMI spec. for .32 ACP. Here's another link that includes it. (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm)

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:18
I'm going to give you a simple goal post, and I won't move it:

Provide me with one statement from one manufacturer publication or a service rep. or similar source that says they recommend even limited use of Buffalo Bore +P .32 ACP in their gun.

How is this make Buffalo Bore irresponsible for putting out +P .32 ACP?

Did they say on their website "This .32 ACP is specifically to be used with Kel-Tec handguns"?

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:19
Because the manufacturers themselves are making the claims that their guns can't handle .32 +P, not me. And they know more than I do.

You mean ONE manufacturer made claim that their gun can't handle .32 +P?

Also, who put the gun to any shooter's head to use +P ammo; any +P ammo, in their own guns?

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:28
You mean ONE manufacturer made claim that their gun can't handle .32 +P?

Also, who put the gun to any shooter's head to use +P ammo; any +P ammo, in their own guns?

No, two: didn't you see Walther also, in my post? I did a little legwork, I've talked to a few companies now. I can't think of a heavier-built .32 than the PPK -- maybe the CZ? If you want to prove your point, you put a little skin into the game and do as I asked and find me one.

And, who said anything about people forcing anyone to use any ammo? You're arguing points I'm not making or defending.

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:33
How is this make Buffalo Bore irresponsible for putting out +P .32 ACP?

Did they say on their website "This .32 ACP is specifically to be used with Kel-Tec handguns"?

Actually, yes, they list the Kel-Tek(sic) P32 as one of their reference guns in their technical specs.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132

Clearly they didn't talk to Kel-Tec about it.

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:51
And, who said anything about people forcing anyone to use any ammo? You're arguing points I'm not making or defending.

Then how is Buffalo Bore being irresponsible? They are not forcing their ammo on you or anybody else?:dunno:

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 11:54
Actually, yes, they list the Kel-Tek(sic) P32 as one of their reference guns in their technical specs.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132

Clearly they didn't talk to Kel-Tec about it.

Actually, no.

They used a Kel-Tec to demonstrate actual ballistics out of that gun. They reported that the gun and the ammo worked just fine (I'm sure that report doesn't mean squat to you because they're not the gun's manufacturer).

Nowhere did they advocate to use this ammo in Kel-Tec.

Do you think that all the ammo manufacturers running around had called up all the gun makers and ask their opinions about which ammo is appropriate for use with which gun?

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 11:55
Then how is Buffalo Bore being irresponsible? They are not forcing their ammo on you or anybody else?:dunno:

Oh, so we're not arguing about whether there are any manufacturers out there who feel comfortable having Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +P used in their pistols, we're arguing about what the definition of irresponsible is!

I must, therefore, fall back on the words of a great statesman: "That depends on what the definition of 'is' is." :rofl:

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 12:00
Actually, no.

They used a Kel-Tec to demonstrate actual ballistics out of that gun. They reported that the gun and the ammo worked just fine (I'm sure that report doesn't mean squat to you because they're not the gun's manufacturer).

Nowhere did they advocate to use this ammo in Kel-Tec.

It's a reasonable inference that if a manufacture mentions a particular gun by name in association with their ammo, that constitutes an implied recommendation. You'd have to go talk to a lawyer if you want to get into that any deeper. I don't care to.

Do you think that all the ammo manufacturers running around had called up all the gun makers and ask their opinions about which ammo is appropriate for use with which gun?

No, I expect them to use agreed-upon industry standards. OH! If ONLY there were such a thing!! We could make an independent standards agency and call it, oh, I dunno, "Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute." That's an awesome idea I just came up with if I do say so myself. I hope nobody thought of it already....

And just to reiterate the point, there ARE published SAAMI specs for 9mm +P, .38 Spc. +P and others. Right here (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)

Of +P loads, SAAMI says: "This ammunication is loaded to a higher pressure, as indicated by the +P marking on the case headstamp, to achieve a higher velocity. Use only in firearms especially designed for this cartridge and so recommended by the manufacturer."

There are, as far as I know, NO such firearms for .32 ACP +P. (and no SAAMI standard).

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 12:24
It's a reasonable inference that if a manufacture mentions a particular gun by name in association with their ammo, that constitutes an implied recommendation. You'd have to go talk to a lawyer if you want to get into that any deeper. I don't care to.


You're the one that make claims that they're irresponsible. Not me.


No, I expect them to use agreed-upon industry standards. OH! If ONLY there were such a thing!! We could make an independent standards agency and call it, oh, I dunno, "Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute." That's an awesome idea I just came up with if I do say so myself. I hope nobody thought of it already....

Once upon a time, there were no +P standards in SAAMI until ammo makers started making them. It's only a matter of time that SAAMI will have .32 Auto +P.:dunno: Industry standards change with time. All it takes is for a company or companies with enough balls to initiate.

Once again, who puts a gun to your head or anybody's head and make you use this .32 +P ammo from Buffalo Bore?

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 12:37
Once upon a time, there were no +P standards in SAAMI until ammo makers started making them. It's only a matter of time that SAAMI will have .32 Auto +P.:dunno: Industry standards change with time. All it takes is for a company or companies with enough balls to initiate.

Well, is that true? Is SAAMI a trailing organization or a leading organization? I don't know much about its history. If it was a proposed engineering standard, with say, IEEE, or IETF, there would be a process to go through -- RFCs, peer reviews, etc. Does SAAMI have these processes? Has Buffalo Bore submitted a proposed .32 ACP +P standard? Have any manufacturers signed onto it?

Even if the process is started, it doesn't mean anything to the consumer, because no manufacturer has produced a .32 ACP +P firearm -- because they have no way of saying what ".32 ACP +P" means. Because the standard hasn't been set.

If the standard got set, and manufacturers had a particular PSI to go with they might say, "Oh, yeah, we've been good to go with that all along. No worries." But right now ".32 ACP +P" doesn't mean anything fixed so they can't measure it.

If it's anything like other standards agencies, until you go through the process, you're just a guy out there making out-of-spec. stuff. In fact, the "+P" term is misleading, because with regard to many calibers, it has a defined meaning, a defined pressure. Labeling your ammo "+P" kind of sounds official -- it means up to 38,500 PSI for 9mm +P, because there's a standard. For .32 ACP it's really just "Hey I loaded this stuff really hot."

Once again, who puts a gun to your head or anybody's head and make you use this .32 +P ammo from Buffalo Bore?

You keep saying that. When am I ever saying anything like that? Maybe we better get back to the definition of "irresponsible."

Is "irresponsible" the same thing as "puts a gun to your head and makes you use it?" Because I thought those were two pretty different things.

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 12:48
Well, is that true? Is SAAMI a trailing organization or a leading organization? I don't know much about its history. If it was a proposed engineering standard, with say, IEEE, or IETF, there would be a process to go through -- RFCs, peer reviews, etc. Does SAAMI have these processes? Has Buffalo Bore submitted a proposed .32 ACP +P standard? Have any manufacturers signed onto it?

Even if the process is started, it doesn't mean anything to the consumer, because no manufacturer has produced a .32 ACP +P firearm -- because they have no way of saying what ".32 ACP +P" means. Because the standard hasn't been set.

If the standard got set, and manufacturers had a particular PSI to go with they might say, "Oh, yeah, we've been good to go with that all along. No worries." But right now ".32 ACP +P" doesn't mean anything fixed so they can't measure it.

If it's anything like other standards agencies, until you go through the process, you're just a guy out there making out-of-spec. stuff. In fact, the "+P" term is misleading, because with regard to many calibers, it has a defined meaning, a defined pressure. Labeling your ammo "+P" kind of sounds official -- it means up to 38,500 PSI for 9mm +P, because there's a standard. For .32 ACP it's really just "Hey I loaded this stuff really hot."


All I know is that there were no listing of +P loads in 1980 and now there are listings for +P loads.

Also, there are no SAAMI listing for 9mm +P+ either, yet manufacturers do put out 9mm +P+ ammunition. Why don't you call them irresponsible?


You keep saying that. When am I ever saying anything like that? Maybe we better get back to the definition of "irresponsible."

Is "irresponsible" the same thing as "puts a gun to your head and makes you use it?" Because I thought those were two pretty different things.
Because you keep putting the onus on the ammo manufacturer yet don't hold the individual responsible.

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 13:07
All I know is that there were no listing of +P loads in 1980 and now there are listings for +P loads.

Also, there are no SAAMI listing for 9mm +P+ either, yet manufacturers do put out 9mm +P+ ammunition. Why don't you call them irresponsible?


Cause I can only kick so much ass in a day. They can take a number, the irresponsible buggers. :tongueout:


Because you keep putting the onus on the ammo manufacturer yet don't hold the individual responsible.

FNFalman, if you have a .32 and run this stuff through it, you're making a bad decision. It's hard on your gun, you're trying to stick 2 pounds of boom in a 1 pound boombox, and you should just get a bigger gun. That better?

Warp
07-22-2011, 13:18
From your own quote.


...and?

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 13:28
Actually, an interesting side note to this is that .32 caliber in general has had some of the more interesting (if not successful) cartridge evolutions.

In autos, when North American Arms wanted a high pressure, high velocity .32, they didn't develop a gun chambered for .32 +P, they developed an entirely new gun and cartridge, the .32NAA (.380 case necked down to .32). Now, I don't think there's a SAAMI spec. for .32NAA, but since NAA makes the only gun that chambers it and worked cooperatively with the companies that produce the cartridge, I imagine there are numbers available from NAA and we know the .32NAA Guardian supports it.

Why do you think they went to the trouble to develop a necked auto round when they could have just designed a .32 +P gun? Would be interesting to ask them. It could be because .32 ACP is already near its design limit at standard pressures.

On the revolver side, when they wanted more powerful .32 cartridges, they just kept reinventing the cartridge. .32 S&W, .32 H&R Magnum, .327 Federal Magnum -- all the same bullet diameters and any gun chambered in .327 Fed. Magnum can chamber all the other cartridges. However, my understanding is that there was no physical reason they had to extend the case on the H&R Magnum for the .327 Federal magnum -- they could have made it the same size, loaded to a higher pressure. They just didn't want any H&R Magnum revolvers to be able to chamber .327 Federal Rounds, because the pressures were beyond what the H&R revolvers were designed to handle (it loads to a whopping 45,000 psi!).

There are probably a lot of solid engineering reasons why there are no (ETA: standardized) +P rounds in either revolver or auto .32 cartridges and I wouldn't be surprised if they had to to with the design specs. of the original .32 auto and .32 S&W cartridges and the guns that chamber them made it problematic to safely push more performance out of them.

Correction: .32NAA and .327 federal magnum are on the most recent SAAMI specs, just not on the older copies I linked above.

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 13:40
FNFalman, if you have a .32 and run this stuff through it, you're making a bad decision. It's hard on your gun, you're trying to stick 2 pounds of boom in a 1 pound boombox, and you should just get a bigger gun. That better?

I wouldn't own a mousegun in the first place.:tongueout:

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 13:45
I wouldn't own a mousegun in the first place.:tongueout:

B...but what do you shoot mice with, then?

redbaron007
07-22-2011, 13:46
FNFalman, if you have a .32 and run this stuff through it, you're making a bad decision. It's hard on your gun, you're trying to stick 2 pounds of boom in a 1 pound boombox, and you should just get a bigger gun. That better?

I guess I'm confused. If there are no standards for .32 +P, how do you know what the pressures are and that they are unsafe?:dunno:

I believe my manual for my P32 stated nothing about the use of BB or CB. IIRC, in paraphrasing, it stated not use +P loads as a regular diet. My P32 is just 2 years old. I've shot BB, CB and some Swamp Fox without issue. SF indicates maximum load, could BB just be a maximum load they call +P?

As a default, I would bet the customer service attendent that responded to your email, stated this to keep their shorts out of the spinner. Without specific conversation, he had no choice but to state this.


:wavey:

red

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 13:58
I guess I'm confused. If there are no standards for .32 +P, how do you know what the pressures are and that they are unsafe?:dunno:

And conversely, that they're safe. That's kind of the whole point. If someone could say .32 Auto +P is 16% over .32 Auto standard loading, then we'd have a number. But without a standard you don't know if "+P" is 10% over standard or 10% under a proof load. If manufacturers want to toss around a term like that, they have a responsibility to put the numbers down so everyone on all sides of the argument agrees what they're discussing. SAAMI's the place for that.


I believe my manual for my P32 stated nothing about the use of BB or CB. IIRC, in paraphrasing, it stated not use +P loads as a regular diet. My P32 is just 2 years old. I've shot BB, CB and some Swamp Fox without issue. SF indicates maximum load, could BB just be a maximum load they call +P?

Good lord, you're right. I haven't checked my P32 manual in forever. FNFalman is never gonna let me live this down. It says "The P-32 will accept +P ammunition, however not with continuous use."

I have no idea, however, how they are defining "+P" and if it's the same thing Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon mean by the term. Standards, I say! You have to have standards before you can say you comply with them! :tongueout:


As a default, I would bet the customer service attendent that responded to your email, stated this to keep their shorts out of the spinner. Without specific conversation, he had no choice but to state this.


I'm sure that's the case. :)

ETA: In my opinion, the kind of issues you get running hot ammo are like the issues you get running unleaded gasoline in an old car designed for leaded. Yeah, a tank or two you won't notice anything. It's just umpteen tanks later when your valves are destroyed that you think "Well, maybe that wasn't such a good idea."

Things have fatigue limits. I can tap my finger on a spot of drywall forever and not do any damage. I can strike with with some more force a few times, but sooner or later I'm going to crack it. I can punch it once.

redbaron007
07-22-2011, 14:07
Good lord, you're right. I haven't checked my P32 manual in forever. FNFalman is never gonna let me live this down. It says "The P-32 will accept +P ammunition, however not with continuous use."

I have no idea, however, how they are defining "+P" and if it's the same thing Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon mean by the term. Standards, I say! You have to have standards before you can say you comply with them! :tongueout:



I'm sure that's the case. :)


Sure he will...he's a nice loveable ole cuss! :supergrin:

BTW, I carry the lil 32 when nothing else can be carried effeciently. Or as a bug when the 26/32 is in it's rightful place.


:wavey:

red

cloudbuster
07-22-2011, 14:09
BTW, I carry the lil 32 when nothing else can be carried effeciently. Or as a bug when the 26/32 is in it's rightful place.


:wavey:

red

Same here. :wavey:

writwing
07-22-2011, 14:31
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."

What about the Personal Responsibility?!!

What about 9mm +P+??

fnfalman
07-22-2011, 15:10
B...but what do you shoot mice with, then?

10mm +P.

WiskyT
07-22-2011, 15:39
What about the Personal Responsibility?!!

What about 9mm +P+??

9mm +P+ is not sold by responsible manufacturers to the general public. It is sold to agencies that sign a release that informs the buyer that the ammo is overloaded.

ChuteTheMall
07-22-2011, 18:04
10mm +P.

10mm +P+.

:tongueout:

Berto
07-22-2011, 18:14
10mm +P+.

:tongueout:

They call that .41 mag.:supergrin:

writwing
07-23-2011, 06:44
9mm +P+ is not sold by responsible manufacturers to the general public. It is sold to agencies that sign a release that informs the buyer that the ammo is overloaded.


What about YOUR responsibility to select the correct ammo for your gun?

BTW are the guns of these "agencies" modified to handle the "overloaded" ammo???

I doubt that any agency would sign such a release, its a lawsuit waiting to happen.

El_Ron1
07-23-2011, 07:43
I wouldn't own a mousegun in the first place.:tongueout:
Yes. There is that. :cool:

2740dmx
07-23-2011, 09:40
I haven't read all 5 pages of replies...

but, having used their .38+P LSWCHP in my Ruger SP snubbie, I am glad that they make some hot ammo.

If I had a .32...would I shoot their hot stuff in it? Probably not, but then again....who the hell carries a .32 anymore? :shocked:

Just because Porsche makes an engine that produces massive horsepower..doesn't mean I will install one in my Pinto. (I don't own a Pinto)

Now...maybe I will back up and read those 5 pages..
thanks

RHVEtte
07-23-2011, 11:29
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.



Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766343_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

.38 Special +P

WiskyT
07-23-2011, 11:47
I doubt that any agency would sign such a release, its a lawsuit waiting to happen.

:dumb:

dugo
02-19-2012, 18:47
Ugh. Got bogged down in the whole Infalman vs/ Cloudbuster thing. I like BuffaloBore, but unfortunately the argument goes to Cloud's side. Example: Many major manufacturers certainly do address the "+P" issue. It is also correct that there are Saami "+P" standards for many rounds, but not for .380 or .32, and that makes them different; and, to advertise that you tested your round in a particular gun (ala the P3AT) does actually imply to the public that it will safely shoot the round. Points for Cloud, et al.

Cloud, though, not sure you're correct that the ammo company should point to specific guns that will handle the round. That might be a little over the top. See the old H&R revolver warning below for one sufficient alternative.

Don't recall if anyone did, but to argue that BB just meant their round is over standard pressure would not be convincing, since the term "+P" has a specific and recognized meaning. It might provide a caution, but it is misleading to use it regarding these rounds.

Like I said, I still like BB. I did start using their hot .32 H&R "+P" rounds, and I don't think there is an actual "+P" standard for those either. My reasoning was two-fold. First, I think BB is generally "responsible" with loadings, so they probably would not (I hope) put out a round so insanely hot that it will blow up modern full-quality firearms. (They do warn against using this round in the old H&R revolvers. Also, they are well-established enough that I'd think -uh, hope- they have some lawyers to caution them harshly about doing stuff that is too dangerous.)

Second, I understand the .32 H&R "magnum" has been an under-pressured round up till now, anyway, so there should be some leeway to safely bump pressure up. Still, this is a bit of a roll of the dice, since a lot of my reasoning is based on speculation.

I don't use BB .380, by the way. I was mislead for a while by their use of the term, though.

As was suggested, I'll avoid the "irresponsible" word until "is" is adequately defined. I would still appreciate any effort by BB to upgrade the integrity of their advertising/labelling in this respect, though.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 19:01
I see no fault in what they are selling. I say it falls on the firearm owner to be responsible for what they shoot through their pistol. It's not like they are making anyone buy and shoot their ammo. If someone buys it, and shoots it, and their gun blows up as a result, that's their problem.

The shooter knew what they were purchasing was a high pressure load and knew (at least they should have known) the dangers of shooting high pressure ammo out of something that wasn't rated for it in the first place.

This isn't a fault with the ammo manufacture nor the firearm manufacture. The only reason this load was produced in the first place is because someone wanted to think their mouse gun could do something it can't.

As long as there are people like that, their will be gimmicky products.

Buyer Beware!

:faint:

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 19:07
I will also note that personally, if I felt the need for +P, I would go the next larger caliber/cartridge in power level instead.

I just don't see the point in +P ammo. To me, it's like putting a hopped up four cylinder engine in a large pickup. It may work for a while but can't possibly make up for something bigger.

As the saying goes, "There's no replacement for displacement."


Edited to add, the only time I could see the point in +P is if I was limited to only one caliber such as 9mm and had no choice in the matter. Then I would opt for the +P or +P+. Given a choice in the matter, I'll go bigger.

Warp
02-19-2012, 19:21
I will also note that personally, if I felt the need for +P, I would go the next larger caliber/cartridge in power level instead.



To call this an over-simplified response that fails to properly address the issue is an under statement.


To me, it's like putting a hopped up four cylinder engine in a large pickup.

Poor analogy. That would be like putting a small caliber +P round in a large frame gun.

Using a +P round in a platform that isn't big enough to handle a larger round (more common usage of +P) rather than buying a larger caliber is more like putting a hopped up four cylinder engine in a compact pickup, rather than buying a full size pickup.

bustedknee
02-19-2012, 19:54
They could be responsible like the companies that write the reloading manuals and under-load everything 20-30%.

They wouldn't make much money doing that, would they?.

dugo
02-19-2012, 20:12
I see no fault in what they are selling.

:faint:

The issue for me is not what, but HOW they are selling. I thought the "+P" term means that the round is between certain established and understood minimum and maximum pressure limits, or woithin a specified pressure range. Is that correct? If so, applying the term to a round for which those standards do not exist would be misleading.

If it just means that it is over standard pressure, with no safe limit at the top end, then you are correct. In that case, I guess there is no implication that the round is safe at all, and "+P+" has no meaning. While I could believe that (since a lot of marketting fluff doesn't mean anything), maybe I have misunderstood something.

I generally agree with "buyer beware", as you say. The seller still has some responsibility, though.

G36's Rule
02-19-2012, 20:12
Old thread. But yeah, what Buffalo Bore does is irresponsible and probably fraudulent. But then again, anyone using either BB or Double Tap probably isn't too smart anyway.

dugo
02-19-2012, 20:18
They could be responsible like the companies that write the reloading manuals and under-load everything 20-30%.

They wouldn't make much money doing that, would they?.

I think that's what they did with the .32 H&R (due to the low strength of the original platform). We are going off point, though. I don't mind if ya'll don't, but we are.

dugo
02-19-2012, 20:20
Old thread. But yeah, what Buffalo Bore does is irresponsible and probably fraudulent. But then again, anyone using either BB or Double Tap probably isn't too smart anyway.

Ok, you got me. Not too smart. Geez, it hurts to admit that, but I'm glad I got it off my chest.

(Edit to add:) Uh ...yep ... didn't notice, but: old thread. Sorry for resurrecting the forgotten. Guess it snared me 'cause I just started using those .32 H&R's and it was a sore subject for me.

Berto
02-19-2012, 20:56
Old thread. But yeah, what Buffalo Bore does is irresponsible and probably fraudulent. But then again, anyone using either BB or Double Tap probably isn't too smart anyway.

In five years we'll have to be reminded of how dangerous this new ammo is......wait, this stuff has been out longer than that.
:whistling:

Warp
02-19-2012, 21:32
Old thread. But yeah, what Buffalo Bore does is irresponsible and probably fraudulent. But then again, anyone using either BB or Double Tap probably isn't too smart anyway.

Fraudulent?

Upon what do you base this accusation?


In five years we'll have to be reminded of how dangerous this new ammo is......wait, this stuff has been out longer than that.
:whistling:

Don't let facts get in the way of internet opinions. What are you thinking? :rofl:

G36's Rule
02-19-2012, 21:38
Fraudulent?

Upon what do you base this accusation?



When you claim you are producing something, that doesn't exist, yeah that could be fraud.

There is no 380+p or 40S&W+p, yet Buffalo Bore seems to have ammo claiming that.

Both companies claim velocities that they do not attain. Double Tap in particular claims velocities that they do not produce.

Simple enough for you?

G36's Rule
02-19-2012, 21:40
In five years we'll have to be reminded of how dangerous this new ammo is......wait, this stuff has been out longer than that.
:whistling:

I'm going to assume you are one of the ummm, unfortunates, that actually paid for some of this ammo?

Reb 56
02-19-2012, 22:30
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.



Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

My S&W 642 has 38 special + P stamped on the barrel.

Warp
02-19-2012, 22:33
When you claim you are producing something, that doesn't exist, yeah that could be fraud.

There is no 380+p or 40S&W+p, yet Buffalo Bore seems to have ammo claiming that.

Both companies claim velocities that they do not attain. Double Tap in particular claims velocities that they do not produce.

Simple enough for you?


I have seen enough chrono tests/results with buffalo bore to trust their numbers. Especially in the .38spl I like it for the most.

No, there is no official +P for those rounds. They use the +P rating to communicate what they are doing.

Are you going to write off Winchester and say they are a bunch of frauds because they market +P+ 9mm, which also does not really exist??




My S&W 642 has 38 special + P stamped on the barrel.

Ah yes, FNFALman did claim that no company stamps +P in their .38 specials.

I will support your statement with a picture of my 642.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/6afcce21.jpg

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 22:56
Poor analogy. That would be like putting a small caliber +P round in a large frame gun.

Using a +P round in a platform that isn't big enough to handle a larger round (more common usage of +P) rather than buying a larger caliber is more like putting a hopped up four cylinder engine in a compact pickup, rather than buying a full size pickup.

Well, isn't the point of +P ammo to make the cartridge perform like something more powerful?

You missed my point. The analogy was meant to portray how something small is expected to perform the same or better than something more powerful that it. The small engine in the analogy may run fairly well for a while but will break sooner. Just the same, it still can't compete with the larger engine when all factors are considered. The same with +P ammo.

The point of using +P ammo is to get closer to the power level of a larger more powerful cartridge. If I have to run +P ammo in order to make the gun "Effective enough for defense" that tells me that maybe I need to look elsewhere to something else that can do the job better without having to push things that hard.

I hear so many in the 9mm crowd knock the .40 saying it's a high pressure round. Yet the .40 and 9mm run in the same pressure range. Then you have the +P+ 9mm ammo which is outside SAAMI specs. If that is the pressure level that I have to push a cartridge to in order to make it effective, why not step up to the .40 and get more surface area, a larger wound channel and more energy on target in the same size pistol? There is no +P in .40 S&W. You don't need it. If you need more than a .40 delivers, go to the 10mm, ect.


Again, I just don't see the point of +P ammo unless I have no choice in caliber. Maybe the only other application I can see is using it in a short barrel gun to get closer the ballistics of a full size handgun.

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:00
The issue for me is not what, but HOW they are selling. I thought the "+P" term means that the round is between certain established and understood minimum and maximum pressure limits, or woithin a specified pressure range. Is that correct? If so, applying the term to a round for which those standards do not exist would be misleading.

If it just means that it is over standard pressure, with no safe limit at the top end, then you are correct. In that case, I guess there is no implication that the round is safe at all, and "+P+" has no meaning. While I could believe that (since a lot of marketting fluff doesn't mean anything), maybe I have misunderstood something.

I generally agree with "buyer beware", as you say. The seller still has some responsibility, though.

Do they claim that their ammo complies to SAAMI or NATO specs? Do they have a disclaimer? I can't find any of my old boxes of Buffalo Bore ammo to see.

Usually, if I have any doubt if a certain brand of ammo is safe to fire out of my guns, I don't use it and look elsewhere for ammo.

As long as people will buy it, they will continue to sell it. As I said, Buyer Beware.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:01
To call this an over-simplified response that fails to properly address the issue is an under statement.

Please explain to me what I'm missing then.

Educate me please. :supergrin:

Warp
02-19-2012, 23:14
Well, isn't the point of +P ammo to make the cartridge perform like something more powerful?

You missed my point. The analogy was meant to portray how something small is expected to perform the same or better than something more powerful that it. The small engine in the analogy may run fairly well for a while but will break sooner. Just the same, it still can't compete with the larger engine when all factors are considered. The same with +P ammo.

The big pickup will not fit in my garage. The small pickup will fit in my garage. The pickup I buy MUST fit in my garage.

Why would I buy the big pickup?


The .38/.357 can be purchased in a snub nose J-frame that fits in all of my pockets. The .44spl/mag cannot be purchased in that size gun and thus will not fit in my pockets. The pocket revolver I buy must fit in my pocket. Why would I buy the .44?


A HOT .38spl +P is all the recoil I want from a pocket J-frame. If I had one that could fire .357, I would still only carry hot .38spl +P or maybe very very mild .357. Why should I spend noticeably more money for said gun chambered in .357?



Please explain to me what I'm missing then.

Educate me please. :supergrin:

Can I go down to my local gun store and buy a Smith and Wesson snub nose J-frame revolver that weighs the same as my 642, costs the same (new), but is chambered in .357mag?

Can I buy a nice Smith that is the same size and weight of my 642, but chambered for .44?

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:17
The big pickup will not fit in my garage. The small pickup will fit in my garage. The pickup I buy MUST fit in my garage.

Why would I buy the big pickup?


The .38/.357 can be purchased in a snub nose J-frame that fits in all of my pockets. The .44spl/mag cannot be purchased in that size gun and thus will not fit in my pockets. The pocket revolver I buy must fit in my pocket. Why would I buy the .44?






Can I go down to my local gun store and buy a Smith and Wesson snub nose J-frame revolver that weighs the same as my 642, costs the same (new), but is chambered in .357mag?

Can I guy a nice Smith that is the same size and weight of my 642, but chambered for .44?


It's clear to me that your still missing my point.

Either legitimately or on purpose.

Which is it?

Warp
02-19-2012, 23:20
Do they claim that their ammo complies to SAAMI or NATO specs? Do they have a disclaimer? I can't find any of my old boxes of Buffalo Bore ammo to see.

Usually, if I have any doubt if a certain brand of ammo is safe to fire out of my guns, I don't use it and look elsewhere for ammo.

As long as people will buy it, they will continue to sell it. As I said, Buyer Beware.

They have a website. You should start by checking there, I think.

Warp
02-19-2012, 23:21
It's clear to me that your still missing my point.

Either legitimately or on purpose.

Which is it?

What is your point?

Can you state it in one concise sentence, please?

Or perhaps you could answer some of my questions?

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:39
The big pickup will not fit in my garage. The small pickup will fit in my garage. The pickup I buy MUST fit in my garage.

Why would I buy the big pickup?

That depends solely upon what your using the truck for. If it's a work truck to go to and from the job sight, than the small truck is fine. If your pulling a 5th wheel trailer or hauling equipment every day, it's probably not the best choice and will leave you wanting.

The little truck may pull it, but when you put it under a load, it won't pull like the bigger truck with the bigger engine. Not to mention it will wear out sooner and will probably fail to do the job that it was intended to do in the first place. Especially so when you really need it. If your life is at stake, do you want good enough, or more than enough?

You be the judge. I know my answer.


The .38/.357 can be purchased in a snub nose J-frame that fits in all of my pockets. The .44spl/mag cannot be purchased in that size gun and thus will not fit in my pockets. The pocket revolver I buy must fit in my pocket. Why would I buy the .44?

If were discussing pocket guns, then the .44 is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with a snub. Here is a example of where +P is useful. With a +P load, you can use a load like Speer 135 grain +P GDHP. You get ballistics that come close to a 4" barrel .38 out of a snub. All this without the recoil of the .357 in a small platform. The .357 will still do better if the shooter can manage the recoil.


A HOT .38spl +P is all the recoil I want from a pocket J-frame. If I had one that could fire .357, I would still only carry hot .38spl +P or maybe very very mild .357. Why should I spend noticeably more money for said gun chambered in .357?

If it the same size gun or near the same size gun, why not? Why not have the option? I would. I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. If I'm already spending good money on a gun, what's another $100-$200 dollars going to hurt?

What's your life worth? More than likely it's worth more than a few hundred dollars. Or I would at least hope so.



Can I go down to my local gun store and buy a Smith and Wesson snub nose J-frame revolver that weighs the same as my 642, costs the same (new), but is chambered in .357mag?

No, but you could get a 340PD. It actually weighs less. 11.4 ounces versus 15 ounces. It's chambered in .357 Mag, and you still have the option of running .38 spl+P. :supergrin:

Can I buy a nice Smith that is the same size and weight of my 642, but chambered for .44?

Would you want to shoot it? I wouldn't. Be realistic now.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:40
What is your point?

Can you state it in one concise sentence, please?

Or perhaps you could answer some of my questions?

Excuse me but I asked YOU to educate me. All your doing is answering questions with questions.

Your turn! :wavey:

Warp
02-19-2012, 23:44
If your life is at stake, do you want good enough, or more than enough?




I want the smaller gun that is actually with me because it actually fits in my pocket. A larger firearm I cannot carry is NOT what I want.

Excuse me but I asked YOU to educate me. All your doing is answering questions with questions.

Your turn! :wavey:

I already did. You seem to have ignored it. Not my fault.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:47
I want the smaller gun that is actually with me because it actually fits in my pocket. A larger firearm I cannot carry is NOT what I want. I already did. You seem to have ignored it. Not my fault.

Then there are compromises with a smaller gun that need to be understood before hand. A shorter barreled gun, even with +P ammo will not be as effective as that load being fired from a full sized gun.





I didn't ignore it. You answered questions with questions. No decisive answers.

Are you a politician by chance? :whistling:

Warp
02-19-2012, 23:48
I didn't ignore it. You answered questions with questions. No decisive answers.

Are you a politician by chance? :whistling:

I see that the socratic method escapes you. Seemingly rhetorical questions do too.

I apologize.

I am off to bed now and I have a busy day tomorrow. I will log on by tomorrow night, though.

I you have specific questions you would like me to ask, please provide them.

NEOH212
02-19-2012, 23:55
I am off to bed now and I have a busy day tomorrow. I will log on by tomorrow night, though.

I you have specific questions you would like me to ask, please provide them.

Good night! :wavey:

I see that the socratic method escapes you. Seemingly rhetorical questions do too.

No, I do like straight, direct answers though. Answers that you clearly are failing to provide. I don't play the rhetoric game. That's too easy. Holding someone to the point and forcing them to answer in a direct manner is much more amusing. Usually, this is where you can tear their argument down. As is the case here. That's ok.


Run Away!

I understand.

carbuncle
02-20-2012, 00:06
Ah yes, FNFALman did claim that no company stamps +P in their .38 specials.

I will support your statement with a picture of my 642.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/6afcce21.jpg

http://www.kygunco.com/prodimages/23116-DEFAULT-L.jpg

Warp
02-20-2012, 00:11
Good night! :wavey:



No, I do like straight, direct answers though. Answers that you clearly are failing to provide. I don't play the rhetoric game. That's too easy. Holding someone to the point and forcing them to answer in a direct manner is much more amusing. Usually, this is where you can tear their argument down. As is the case here. That's ok.


Run Away!

I understand.

I very clearly stated that I would answer your questions, it just might not be tonight, at 1:11 AM.

I think the one running away, currently, is you...you are not even providing questions, only scolding me for not answering, well, not answering what I am not sure.

Ask away. They shall be answered before the day is out.

M&P15T
02-20-2012, 06:25
My God!!!

Hot .32ACP ammo that requires it's user to know what the hell they're doing?

OMG!! Lawsuit time....get the government to pass a law or something!!! It's for the children!!!!

Warp
02-20-2012, 07:02
Still waiting for these questions.

I thought for sure if I peeked online in the AM I would see something after all that hot air from last night.

NEOH212, where are your questions?

ArtCrafter
02-20-2012, 07:04
I'm going to assume you are one of the ummm, unfortunates, that actually paid for some of this ammo?


Alright, I'm 'game.'

I'm going to assume you don't know WTF you're talking about, because I further assume you meant that you have never bought a single round of Buffalo Bore ammunition of any caliber and have probably shot even less of it.

In other words, just like the OP, you have an axe to grind.

Too bad it's so hopelessly dull.

writwing
02-20-2012, 08:57
It is properly labeled +P>>>>>no SAMMI standards. If you use it its your risk. If you are concerned about it, dont buy it. Is it McDonald's fault if you eat too many hamburgers???

dugo
02-20-2012, 10:42
Do they claim that their ammo complies to SAAMI or NATO specs? Do they have a disclaimer? I can't find any of my old boxes of Buffalo Bore ammo to see.

Usually, if I have any doubt if a certain brand of ammo is safe to fire out of my guns, I don't use it and look elsewhere for ammo.

As long as people will buy it, they will continue to sell it. As I said, Buyer Beware.

I would suggest that to label a round "+P" amounts to a representation that it complies to SAAMI specs, since it is a term commonly used in the industry and understood by the public to denote that.

If the term is not officially "standardized" (by SAAMI or some other recognized authority), then it will be arguable that it just has the/a "common" meaning that the round is more than standard pressure.

I don't recall a disclaimer, but I am not looking at a box of BB right now, either. Could be.

Agree with your second paragraph, more because of potential wear on the gun than danger.

Shadyscott69
02-20-2012, 13:18
I'm curious but could you show me some manufacturers that would actually put in writing that their guns are safe to be used with +P ammunition? There might be one or two out there that does it but most manufacturers will tell you to use +P ammo in their guns at your own perile and will deny any liability to you.



Since that it's +P, it's outside of SAAMI standards. Period.

Show me a manufacturer that stamps .38 Special +P on their gun. Or 9mm +P on their gun. Or .45 Auto +P on their gun.

Gotta call you on this one, HT. :supergrin:

http://vintagepistols.com/images/642-2.jpg

AK_Stick
02-20-2012, 13:42
No, I want them to say "Hmmm, SAAMI standards exist for a reason. It would be irresponsible of us to offer ammo like this unless we can point to a gun (such as a Ruger Blackhawk for hot .45 colt loads) that is specifically rated to be safe with these pressures."


Shouldn't be on the owner/shooter to verify his weapon is correctly loaded with the proper ammunition?


They're simply offering a product, and make no claims that its safe in your gun. Its up to you to decide what you fire in your gun.

Trigger Finger
02-20-2012, 14:33
This has been going on for quite sometime. It's funny.
It reminds me of the guy who tried to sue the company for not placing a warning sticker on a front windshield sun shade after he attempted to drive while it was in place. Forget the issue that he could not see through the front windshield, he tried to drive anyway and crashed.
That guy called that company irresponsible also!!

It's a firearm for crying out loud, If you don't have SOME idea of what you are doing stay away from them. :faint:

redbaron007
02-20-2012, 14:43
Shouldn't be on the owner/shooter to verify his weapon is correctly loaded with the proper ammunition?


They're simply offering a product, and make no claims that its safe in your gun. Its up to you to decide what you fire in your gun.

Well Said!!

:wavey:

red

RYT 2BER
02-20-2012, 14:58
Kind of interesting thread... I have stayed away from the so-called powerhouse boutique ammo, but I have considered trying double tap for a change...

This thread makes me wonder if its really a mistake...?

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:02
Well Warp, we will just have to agree to disagree. :wavey:

Shadyscott69
02-20-2012, 15:03
Kind of interesting thread... I have stayed away from the so-called powerhouse boutique ammo, but I have considered trying double tap for a change...

This thread makes me wonder if its really a mistake...?

In my experience, DT ammo highly exaggerates their claimed velocities. I chronographed their 10mm loads they were actually about 150 fps below advertised. I have read similar experiences in other calibers.

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:03
I would suggest that to label a round "+P" amounts to a representation that it complies to SAAMI specs, since it is a term commonly used in the industry and understood by the public to denote that.

If the term is not officially "standardized" (by SAAMI or some other recognized authority), then it will be arguable that it just has the/a "common" meaning that the round is more than standard pressure.

I don't recall a disclaimer, but I am not looking at a box of BB right now, either. Could be.

Agree with your second paragraph, more because of potential wear on the gun than danger.

:agree:

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:14
Kind of interesting thread... I have stayed away from the so-called powerhouse boutique ammo, but I have considered trying double tap for a change...

This thread makes me wonder if its really a mistake...?

I've tried the just about all the hot ammo and although it chrono's very fast and hits hard, I don't feel it's worth all the wear and tear on the gun. Furthermore, the stuff I've tried increased the recoil to levels that made the gun less controllable to the point that I couldn't follow up on my shots anywhere near as fast as I could with standard pressure loads, or even some of the other +p loadings.

I steer clear of the really hot stuff. Most modern firearms will handle it but I wouldn't feed any gun a steady diet of any of it. Like anything, if you push it hard all the time, it will eventually break, and probably sooner than later and at the worse possible time.

+P (and I mean +P loads that can normally be found at the gun shop such as Speer, Remington, ect) have their place in short barreled firearms. I won't knock anyone that carries them in a larger gun. To each their own. As I said before, I just don't see the point.

If my caliber of choice requires me to carry the hottest load or a over pressure load to be considered adequately effective to allow for more decisive stopping power, (forgive the terminology.) Then I will opt for a larger caliber that has more, "Punch" to it without requiring me to push the gun and ammunition past standard pressure limits.

(This is where the .45 ACP shines by the way!)

:faint:

mangkukhan
02-20-2012, 15:23
Here's a novel concept, rather than blaming the ammo company. How about we not shoot the hottest ammo we can find through the cheapest bargain basement gun we can find? Keltec makes okay guns, but they are what they are. They are guns known to shoot themselves apart to the point the company that makes them will replace them rather than service them knowing they have short life spans. You want to shoot hot .32 acp rds then get something a little tougher. Any time you get ammo from a company that has an exceptions list for certain rds with certain guns you should think twice about what you're going to shoot it in even if your gun doesn't show up on the list.

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:29
My argument isn't that +P ammo is ineffective. On the contrary, it can be very effective. But with the trade offs that I have outlined in this thread. +P, +P+, and holy crap ammo can make just about any gun in any caliber more effective.

But why not step up to the next level and let the gun run how it was designed to run at the pressure levels it was designed to continuously run at?

I shoot and carry a .40 S&W. I notice a difference when I go to a .45 auto. The .45 can do everything the .40 can do and in most cases do it better. Why don't I carry one? Most .45's are too large for me to carry comfortably and I like more than 8 rounds in the mag. A full size double stack .45 doesn't carry well on a 130 pound women that's barely over 5' tall.

So, I carry the next best thing. The .40 is running at the pressures it was designed to run at, I can shoot it well and it gives me almost everything the .45 does in knock down, still has good capacity, and does everything the 9mm can do and does it better. All in a smaller package than the .45 with the trade off of a little more muzzle flip and a recoil impulse that a little more sharp. It's a trade off but a small one.

9mm, .40, .45 and the .357 Sig are all good rounds in their own right. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. They all work. Some better than others.

However, despite what some might say, they are by no means equal in the real world. Maybe the day that people are made of ballistics gelatin and we all live in a laboratory environment where all the factors of a shooting are under our control it won't matter which one we decide to carry since they all will perform equally well.

In closing, I will leave you with the following:

Having a handgun that fits and that you shoot well is everything. Second, the gun needs to be in a caliber able to get the job done.

Shot placement is everything and there is no magic ammunition. If you don't put the rounds where they need to go, then it's not going to do you any good weather you have a 9mm or a .44 Magnum.

:wavey:

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:30
Here's a novel concept, rather than blaming the ammo company. How about we not shoot the hottest ammo we can find through the cheapest bargain basement gun we can find? Keltec makes okay guns, but they are what they are. They are guns known to shoot themselves apart to the point the company that makes them will replace them rather than service them knowing they have short life spans. You want to shoot hot .32 acp rds then get something a little tougher. Any time you get ammo from a company that has an exceptions list for certain rds with certain guns you should think twice about what you're going to shoot it in even if your gun doesn't show up on the list.


:perfect10:

NEOH212
02-20-2012, 15:34
In my experience, DT ammo highly exaggerates their claimed velocities. I chronographed their 10mm loads they were actually about 150 fps below advertised. I have read similar experiences in other calibers.

I have had mixed results. Some guns showed velocities that were at or slightly above their claims, others were below.

Most of the time though, the velocities were lower than advertised.

Shadyscott69
02-20-2012, 15:36
I have had mixed results. Some guns showed velocities that were at or slightly above their claims, others were below.

Most of the time though, the velocities were lower than advertised.


To be fair, I have heard that they(DT) are much closer to advertised lately. All the BB I have checked has been spot on when shot out of 5" guns.

Nakanokalronin
02-20-2012, 18:08
LCR
http://eightzero.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/imgp7390.jpg

Most manufactures will tell you weather or not +P can be used in the firearm and how much. Not all manufactures want to stamp it in on the gun, but most modern snubs seem to have it.

BB also makes non +P ammo. With their hotter stuff, it should be the responsibility of the user to know their firearm and it's limits. If you don't know it, then call the manufacture and ask them about using BB ammo in your gun.

Warp
02-20-2012, 21:41
Well Warp, we will just have to agree to disagree. :wavey:

So after all of that huffing and puffing claiming I was running away from your questions (which you never asked) you don't actually have any questions, or have a point?

WarEagle32
02-20-2012, 22:17
I only feel comfortable runnig buffalo bore through a solid pistol. Mainly a Glock. I know a Glock can handle them just fine. I would stay away from them in a small gun. Common sense should be the standard on that. Put them in your Glock 20 like I did and they will drop a whitetail or hog! Also sweet out of my Glock 19 !

Warp
02-20-2012, 22:32
I like 'em in my revolvers. :)

Warp
02-20-2012, 22:40
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/e0bb2379.jpg

fnfalman
02-21-2012, 00:41
Okay, so there are a handful of revolvers with .38 Special Plus P stamped on them.

What about pistols?

Warp
02-21-2012, 00:50
Okay, so there are a handful of revolvers with .38 Special Plus P stamped on them.

What about pistols?

Think it is unsafe to put +P in my 9mm Glocks because it isn't stamped on the gun? :rofl:

fnfalman
02-21-2012, 00:53
Think it is unsafe to put +P in my 9mm Glocks because it isn't stamped on the gun? :rofl:

Apparently some people insist that manufacturers have to stamp Plus P onto the guns before they'd dare to feed the guns with Plus P ammo.

MinnesnowtaWild
02-21-2012, 03:30
People are posting pics of revolvers with +P markings on them because someone said that no manufacturer does such a thing, nothing more.

ArtCrafter
02-21-2012, 10:32
Most manufactures will tell you weather or not +P can be used in the firearm and how much. Not all manufactures want to stamp it in on the gun, but most modern snubs seem to have it...


It is certainly becoming more popular - perhaps because of discussions like this one.

The basic 'problem' is the enduring popularity of the approximately 110-year-old .38 Special cartridge - and the Snubby Revolver, which is driving it. The caliber is more versatile than ever, but there are only so many ways to concisely label it.

Oh, well, could be worse. About all one need do is pay a little attention to determine the correct and safe ammunition for their application.

Of course, in a world where so many want everything including common sense handed to them on a plate, that may be too much to ask.

VinnieD
02-21-2012, 12:02
At least when dealing with .38spl I've generally found that most standard ammunition is a good bit under pressure, and that your typical store bought +p rounds from Remington and Winchester are only loaded up to standard pressure. I've managed to fire them safely from non +p snubs with no trouble, swelling, sticking, or other hazards of firing an actual over pressure round.

I think you have to get into police grade +p before you actually get the 10% overpressure that a +p cartridge is supposed to have. Though with buffalo bore they're probably being a bit more honest than others about their chamber pressure, so I'd be more cautious about them.

Win and Rem are probably pulling the time honored practice of lowering the standard, then selling the old standard as an improvement. Not much different from hiking prices then selling it at normal price and calling it a discount.

So no most store bought +p is not going to blow your gun up, in fact if anything you're probably shooting underpowered rounds if you're not shooting +p with the cheaper brands. Buffalo bore however, given their reputation for extremely powerful loads, I wouldn't make that sort of assumption with.

That said one round is probably not going to blow your gun up. Fire one off and see if it extracts cleanly. If it sticks, stop firing. A sticking case means your chamber is expanding and will eventually crack. If it comes out cleanly then I'd say there's no danger, but be careful to maintain it because your frame still has to absorb that extra recoil and that will rattle the gun apart if you fire them regularly.

The general rule of thumb I apply for firing +p out of a non +p gun is fire a mag (or cylinder) full to get a feel for them, practice with standard ammo, and carry the +p for when you need them.

But really with .32 I wonder why you wouldn't just carry a more potent caliber to begin with. If you're wanting to shoot +p then I'm assuming the reason for using .32 isn't an issue of recoil. I know not everyone can conceal a full size .357 or 10mm but .38spl +p snubs and .380 auto pocket pistols aren't that much larger than most of the little .32 guns out there. The LCP, LCR, J frames, and Micro Desert eagle are all pretty tiny.

I guess I'm just wondering why even bother with making a .32 +p when the round its self is becoming outdated in the wake of ever smaller guns firing a bigger and better caliber.

RYT 2BER
02-21-2012, 15:55
I guess I'm just wondering why even bother with making a .32 +p when the round its self is becoming outdated in the wake of ever smaller guns firing a bigger and better caliber.

There is no valid reason I can think of.. you are correct.. pocket 380's are so small I cant imagine why a .32 even continues to exist... :dunno:

Berto
02-21-2012, 16:36
I'm going to assume you are one of the ummm, unfortunates, that actually paid for some of this ammo?

I won't even assume you know what you are talking about since it's obvious you don't.
1)BB actually does meet its advertised numbers if you do some research.
2) SAAMI does have +P designations for 9mm and .38sp, and BB meets those.

I won't say the same for DT.

As far as +P in .40SW or .32ACP, it's more likely loaded to maximum SAAMI pressures and BB puts the '+P' moniker to cover their ass should someone claim it was too hot for their 1900 Browning or Kahr PM40.

Perhaps you could share with us 'fools' what the danger is?