Carring a Glock C3 in a belt clip [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dogchild
07-20-2011, 17:42
I've heard all the arguments about carring a Glock in C1 or C3, i carry mine in C3, accidents do happen in spite of training, and that is why there called accidents.
I've heard the same arguments that you should never carry your Glock in a belt clip, but if your carrying your Glock in C3 why wouldnt it be safe to carry it in a belt clip?

ronin.45
07-20-2011, 18:00
I don't particularly care for C3 carry, but a C3 Glock is perfectly safe to carry with a belt clip.

SCmasterblaster
07-20-2011, 18:30
Just what is C3 and C1? I am uninformed(ignorant).

dogchild
07-20-2011, 20:32
Just what is C3 and C1? I am uninformed(ignorant).

Sorry, there is a huge debate going back and forth about is it safe to carry in C1, means you have it loaded with a round in the chamber holstered and ready to fire ,if your famillar with Glocks they don't have an external safty, if you accidentally pull the trigger during your draw its going to fire ,C3 Means you have it loaded but there is no round in the chamber.

denn1911
07-20-2011, 21:14
This is a training issue. No matter the choice, the shooter must practice so the draw and engagement is second nature. I carry with a round in the chamber. I do not put my finger on the trigger unless I decide that rounds need to be fired. Under stress, people sink to their lowest level of training. There is no reason for someone's finger to enter the trigger guard during the draw.

Wolfdad
07-20-2011, 21:27
Extra care must be taken when reholstering a Glock after it has been fired. Also when first holstering in C1. The trigger is hot under these conditions. A restraining strap or piece of clothing could pull the trigger back just enough to fire the weapon !

Grovenator
07-20-2011, 21:32
I've never heard of a double action revolver NDing before, why would a GLOCK? Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:

dogchild
07-20-2011, 22:12
I've never heard of a double action revolver NDing before, why would a GLOCK? Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:

Thats what she said !

dogchild
07-20-2011, 22:15
This is a training issue. No matter the choice, the shooter must practice so the draw and engagement is second nature. I carry with a round in the chamber. I do not put my finger on the trigger unless I decide that rounds need to be fired. Under stress, people sink to their lowest level of training. There is no reason for someone's finger to enter the trigger guard during the draw.

I understand and thats your choice, i really didn't want to start a thread about C1- C3

K_Rasmussen
07-20-2011, 22:24
C3 is the "get your self killed" carry method. Get a holster and carry C1, s**t happens faster than you can think(proses a thought).

21Carrier
07-20-2011, 22:24
Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:

That's hilarious!

I always carry in condition 1, in a good holster, but I didn't for a while. It took me a month or so when I was new to pistols to understand that there really is little danger with a loaded chamber. As long as the trigger is covered in a holster, and you FULLY realize the danger of touching the trigger, condition one is no big deal. Just keep your finger away, and it's on safe.

I also did some testing (with an empty gun, of course) to see how hard it was to cause an accidental discharge by allowing different items to get caught in the trigger while holstering, or putting my finger on the trigger while holstering, etc. In all of the tests, it was AMAZINGLY hard to get the gun to fire, and most things (shirt caught in trigger, finger, string) wouldn't even cause the gun to fire no matter how hard I pushed the gun into the holster. I then realized how obvious it would be that something was caught. I would realize there was an issue LONG before the gun was in danger of firing.

Wolfdad had a good point. If you ever have to use your gun, and go to re-clip it in your pants, don't forget it will now be in condition one.

One thing that has always worried me about condition one, and something I constantly try to burn into my brain is dropping the gun. Now, a Glock will not fire from a drop, but I've always been afraid I would drop or fumble the gun in C1, and pull the trigger while trying to catch it. If you fumble or drop a Glock in C1, just let it fall. It's just a cheap, bulletproof Glock. It's not worth grabbing that trigger.

Wolfdad
07-20-2011, 23:24
Two of the most important words I've ever heard were stated to me repeatedly by my training Officer many years ago: Never Assume

Bowtie
07-21-2011, 01:53
I've never heard of a double action revolver NDing before, why would a GLOCK? Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:

Apples and oranges. There's a huge difference between a DA revolver and a Glock.

SCmasterblaster
07-21-2011, 07:36
Sorry, there is a huge debate going back and forth about is it safe to carry in C1, means you have it loaded with a round in the chamber holstered and ready to fire ,if your famillar with Glocks they don't have an external safty, if you accidentally pull the trigger during your draw its going to fire ,C3 Means you have it loaded but there is no round in the chamber.

Now I remember. Condition 1 & 3. It goes back to the days when most folks would carry M1911 .45s. Naturally, there is no Condition 2 with Glocks, but I may have invented one.

DWARREN123
07-21-2011, 07:50
Depends on your level of comfort and ability. One thing to think about is that often the need for a firearm comes quite unexpected and time is essential. Training and ability = safety!

JBarbaresi
07-21-2011, 09:50
i can't seem to find it anymore, but there was a video floating around of a guy in a jewelry store/pawn shop and two men walk in shooting. the guy who was standing in the shop (presumably an owner or employee) draws his gun and racks the slide at least 5 or 6 times before he even attempts to get off a shot. by that time he had already been shot several times himself, and collapsed to the floor. the two robbers proceed to kick him in the head after he falls to the ground, take his gun, and everything else they were after in the store. the whole thing takes about 20 seconds before the robbers flee, at which time the man who had been shot tries to recover but ends up stooping over and dieing right there on camera.

now there's no way to tell what degree of training that guy had, but the moral of the story is that when "it" hits the fan there is really no telling how you will react and what your brain will be telling your body to do. one of the many reasons i like the simplicity and lack of an external safety on a glock, one less thing to have to think about in a time you may not be thinking at all, just reacting.

SCmasterblaster
07-21-2011, 09:57
i can't seem to find it anymore, but there was a video floating around of a guy in a jewelry store/pawn shop and two men walk in shooting. the guy who was standing in the shop (presumably an owner or employee) draws his gun and racks the slide at least 5 or 6 times before he even attempts to get off a shot. by that time he had already been shot several times himself, and collapsed to the floor. the two robbers proceed to kick him in the head after he falls to the ground, take his gun, and everything else they were after in the store. the whole thing takes about 20 seconds before the robbers flee, at which time the man who had been shot tries to recover but ends up stooping over and dieing right there on camera.

now there's no way to tell what degree of training that guy had, but the moral of the story is that when "it" hits the fan there is really no telling how you will react and what your brain will be telling your body to do. one of the many reasons i like the simplicity and lack of an external safety on a glock, one less thing to have to think about in a time you may not be thinking at all, just reacting.

Soooooooooooooo true. If one is going to carry C3, then that person must practice drawing and chambering until it is reflexive. It becomes automatic to chamber a round after drawing. That's what I'd do, anyway.

highfructosecornsyrp
07-21-2011, 09:58
I read a bunch of responses from people who need to learn to read more carefully. You mentioned a belt clip i.e. carrying with your glock not in a holster i.e. the trigger is open to the elements.

For that, I think you would have to be especially retarded to make a habit of carrying with one in the chamber.

I carry almost exclusively with a clip draw i.e. no holster. I installed a cominolli thumb safety on my glock and slid a small piece of rubber tubing over the safety.

I went on a kayaking trip, entering and exiting the boat, even falling into some rapids with my glock clipped at 5 o'clock. At the end of the day, my safety was still engaged...without the rubber tubing, it sometimes would half disengage itself during kayaking or hiking (backpack rubbing against it).

All in all, I am extremely satisfied with the purchase. It cost about 120 installed, 80 for the safety if I wanted to install it. The rubber tube is a necessity IMO though.

And as to the guy who said revolvers don't negligently discharge...if you had your revolver hammer locked back and mexican carried it, then there'd be a lot more negligent discharges. If you think your glock trigger is equal to a double action revolver trigger, well...

Cruiser1
07-21-2011, 10:00
No such thing as an accident when comes to guns, Negligence maybe but no accidents.

SCmasterblaster
07-21-2011, 10:02
I read a bunch of responses from people who need to learn to read more carefully. You mentioned a belt clip i.e. carrying with your glock not in a holster i.e. the trigger is open to the elements.

For that, I think you would have to be especially retarded to make a habit of carrying with one in the chamber.

I carry almost exclusively with a clip draw i.e. no holster. I installed a cominolli thumb safety on my glock and slid a small piece of rubber tubing over the safety.

I went on a kayaking trip, entering and exiting the boat, even falling into some rapids with my glock clipped at 5 o'clock. At the end of the day, my safety was still engaged...without the rubber tubing, it sometimes would half disengage itself during kayaking or hiking (backpack rubbing against it).

All in all, I am extremely satisfied with the purchase. It cost about 120 installed, 80 for the safety if I wanted to install it. The rubber tube is a necessity IMO though.

And as to the guy who said revolvers don't negligently discharge...if you had your revolver hammer locked back and mexican carried it, then there'd be a lot more negligent discharges. If you think your glock trigger is equal to a double action revolver trigger, well...

I carry C1.5 and my trigger and striker are deactivated.

JBarbaresi
07-21-2011, 10:18
I read a bunch of responses from people who need to learn to read more carefully. You mentioned a belt clip i.e. carrying with your glock not in a holster i.e. the trigger is open to the elements.

For that, I think you would have to be especially retarded to make a habit of carrying with one in the chamber.

my answer was not in response to carrying with a belt clip, it was in response to carrying C3. there are so many other options out there to safely carry a glock C1, why limit yourself to a method that arguably isn't safe or requires you to carry an unloaded gun? i know this is a whole separate debate, but regardless of how much you train there are just too many scenarios when you will not have time or be able to chamber a round. if you are uncomfortable about not having an external safety and don't trust yourself to keep your finger off the trigger in all sorts of madness, you should invest in a different gun that has an external safety.

here's the video i was talking about:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

dogchild
07-21-2011, 11:01
Extra care must be taken when reholstering a Glock after it has been fired. Also when first holstering in C1. The trigger is hot under these conditions. A restraining strap or piece of clothing could pull the trigger back just enough to fire the weapon !

Thank you for the comment, good point

David Armstrong
07-22-2011, 11:45
I've never heard of a double action revolver NDing before, why would a GLOCK? Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:
LOL!!! Folks used to, and still do, regularly have NDs with revolvers. Why would a Glock? Because ALL GUNS are subject to NDs. It is all very well to talk about "just do this and everything will be OK" but in reality "just do this" fails on a regular basis.

David Armstrong
07-22-2011, 11:48
C3 is the "get your self killed" carry method. Get a holster and carry C1, s**t happens faster than you can think(proses a thought).
We see this claim a lot from those who aren't really familiar with the issue. The facts are rather simple...C3 is perhaps a fraction of a second slower in presentation than C1, and far from a "get yourself killed" carry method it has been the preferred carry method of lots of folks in very dangerous areas for a long time.

David Armstrong
07-22-2011, 11:53
i can't seem to find it anymore, but there was a video floating around of a guy in a jewelry store/pawn shop and two men walk in shooting. the guy who was standing in the shop (presumably an owner or employee) draws his gun and racks the slide at least 5 or 6 times before he even attempts to get off a shot. by that time he had already been shot several times himself, and collapsed to the floor. the two robbers proceed to kick him in the head after he falls to the ground, take his gun, and everything else they were after in the store. the whole thing takes about 20 seconds before the robbers flee, at which time the man who had been shot tries to recover but ends up stooping over and dieing right there on camera.
A gross mis-characterization of the video. It is an execution by a group of rivals, they are not robbers, they do not take his gun or anything else. He is shot at least twice before he ever gets his gun out, and there is a fair amount of disagreement if he is carrying C3 or if he is carrying C1 and messes up the presentation because he has already been fatally shot before he can get the gun out. Actually what the video shows is that carrying C1 or C3 really doesn't matter much in most situations.
there are so many other options out there to safely carry a glock C1, why limit yourself to a method that arguably isn't safe or requires you to carry an unloaded gun?
Because it is quite safe and your gun is not unloaded, which is why it has been used and is still being used by so many in so many places.

fuzzy03cls
07-22-2011, 13:37
I just don't understand why anyone would want to carry a glock or any gun with a clip & not in a holster?? I don't get it. There are a gazillion holsters out there. I'm sure 1 can find something that worked for them? IS it just being lazy? That word should have no place around a gun.

I also do not understand this concept of racking the slide in a SD situation. You have a gun for a reason. Your choosing to carry it. If it comes out your going to use it. Do people really think they have enough time to rack it 1st? 1 training class that induces stress shows that is next to impossible.

Here's a good test for those that think they can. Do 20 pushups, & 20 jumping jacks. Then draw your gun & try to rack & shoot it. See what happens.

dogchild
07-22-2011, 16:14
I just don't understand why anyone would want to carry a glock or any gun with a clip & not in a holster?? I don't get it. There are a gazillion holsters out there. I'm sure 1 can find something that worked for them? IS it just being lazy? That word should have no place around a gun.

I also do not understand this concept of racking the slide in a SD situation. You have a gun for a reason. Your choosing to carry it. If it comes out your going to use it. Do people really think they have enough time to rack it 1st? 1 training class that induces stress shows that is next to impossible.

Here's a good test for those that think they can. Do 20 pushups, & 20 jumping jacks. Then draw your gun & try to rack & shoot it. See what happens.

Fuzzy, i have a box full of holsters! some i like very much,
My thought was i live any a rural area, i thought it might be convenient if I'm in for the day and decide to go back out in the yard i could slip my gun back into my waistband. i have revolvers i could carry ,i have auto loaders with external safetys i could carry ,if im carrying my Glock in C3 i could drop it in my pocket! i just ask the question.
And for carrying in C3 and how slow that is, that is a matter of opinion, there are a lot of experts that dont agree with you, veteran LE and training officers with over 30 years of experience people i would tend to pay more attention to
Thank you for your reply

Donn57
07-22-2011, 17:15
No such thing as an accident when comes to guns, Negligence maybe but no accidents.

I hate it when people say this. Since negligence and accident are not mutually exclusive. An accident can be caused by negligence but that doesn't mean it isn't an accident. The definition of accident:

"accident: an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss"

So unless you want to argue that people experiencing "negligent discharges" are doing so intentionally, a negligent discharge is a perfect example of an accident per the definition above.

And you can have an accidental discharge not caused by negligence. An unintended discharge caused by a malfunctioning weapon is not caused by negligence.

I have no problem referring to accidental discharges caused by negligence as "negligent discharges", but to correct someone and say that negligent discharges are not accidents is simply incorrect.

Donn57
07-22-2011, 17:21
my answer was not in response to carrying with a belt clip, it was in response to carrying C3. there are so many other options out there to safely carry a glock C1, why limit yourself to a method that arguably isn't safe or requires you to carry an unloaded gun? i know this is a whole separate debate, but regardless of how much you train there are just too many scenarios when you will not have time or be able to chamber a round. if you are uncomfortable about not having an external safety and don't trust yourself to keep your finger off the trigger in all sorts of madness, you should invest in a different gun that has an external safety.

here's the video i was talking about:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

I always carried C1 when I carried a semi-auto, but I don't see a problem with C3. The video you posted is not a reason to carry C1, but a reason to practice your C3 draw. If you're not going to practice your C3 draw, you risk ending up like the guy in the video. If you're not going to put in the time to practice your C3 draw, get a DA only weapon and carry in C1.

Edited to add: Concerning the video, DA's analysis seems to be spot on.

David Armstrong
07-22-2011, 18:01
I just don't understand why anyone would want to carry a glock or any gun with a clip & not in a holster?? I don't get it. There are a gazillion holsters out there. I'm sure 1 can find something that worked for them? IS it just being lazy? That word should have no place around a gun.
Folks have carried firearms sans holster pretty much since firearms were developed. Nothing lazy about it, it is just a choice many have made and will make. Comfort, convenience, assorted other factors come into play.

I also do not understand this concept of racking the slide in a SD situation. You have a gun for a reason. Your choosing to carry it. If it comes out your going to use it. Do people really think they have enough time to rack it 1st? 1 training class that induces stress shows that is next to impossible.
I love it when people come to a site and declare something to be "next to impossible" that is done regularly by all sorts of folks in all sorts of situations. And while you may not understand the concept of C3 many other do, which is why it was the dominant method of carry for autoloaders for most of the 20th Century, and is still the preferred method of carry for lots of people and in lots of places.

Here's a good test for those that think they can. Do 20 pushups, & 20 jumping jacks. Then draw your gun & try to rack & shoot it. See what happens.
I'd bet that pretty much anyone who is physically capable of doing 20 pushups and 20 jumping jacks will be able to rack the slide and shoot the gun after doing them. In fact, the military mandated C3 carry for a long time, and many times still does mandate it. I bet they didn't have much trouble racking and shooting after a little work-out.

JBarbaresi
07-22-2011, 23:26
I'd bet that pretty much anyone who is physically capable of doing 20 pushups and 20 jumping jacks will be able to rack the slide and shoot the gun after doing them. In fact, the military mandated C3 carry for a long time, and many times still does mandate it. I bet they didn't have much trouble racking and shooting after a little work-out.

the military also doesn't even trust its members enough to allow them to legally carry personal weapons on a military installation. you think they trust an 18 year old MP with a chambered sidearm?

K_Rasmussen
07-23-2011, 07:52
We see this claim a lot from those who aren't really familiar with the issue. The facts are rather simple...C3 is perhaps a fraction of a second slower in presentation than C1, and far from a "get yourself killed" carry method it has been the preferred carry method of lots of folks in very dangerous areas for a long time.

I'm very familar. And a fraction of a second can be differance between 1st and last place.

JBarbaresi
07-23-2011, 08:05
I'm very familar. And a fraction of a second can be differance between 1st and last place.

not to mention there is no guarantee that you will have both hands available to charge the slide. no matter how you want to slice it or try to convince yourself that carrying unchambered is only a fraction slower, in range practice, at the very least it still messes up your presentation. like i said, it you are uncomfortable carrying a glock as it was intended to be carried that is fine, but you should probaby invest in a weapon with an external thumb safety for carry purposes.

AGAF
07-23-2011, 08:28
I was at the range yesterday shooting my 26 for the first time in awhile. I practiced exclusively drawing my 26 from the holster and putting rounds down range. I have a kydex holster, OWB, with a trigger guard. When I draw, I only get enough fingers on the grip to unholster the weapon and while I pull the weapon up and aim down range, my trigger finger is outside the trigger guard the entire time. My index finger does not touch the trigger until I am at full aim. I did this over and over and over again. I practiced putting the weapon back into the holster with a live round. Again, finger away from the trigger. I feel very safe doing this. As others have said, it is a practice issue. I am not going to bet my life on the ability to unholster my weapon, use two hands to chamber a round, and then point and shoot.

The other thing that I have been doing for a number of years now is point shooting. This is another highly debated topic. It is a matter of muscle memory and practice. I can put 10 rounds in a paper plate from 20 feet all day without ever looking at my sights. This is another SD issue that I believe can speed up my response considerably. I guess each person has to figure out what they are comfortable with, but I am going to practice in such a way that gives me the best advantage I feel I can get to survive......

SevenSixtyTwo
07-23-2011, 09:00
I've never heard of a double action revolver NDing before, why would a GLOCK? Keep yer booger hook off the boom switch and it's all good.:whistling:

The difference is a long steady 8-14~ lb trigger on a revolver verses the no resistance pull and then a hair trigger break on the Glock. I really like our Glocks but I would prefer the 14lb DA/ 5~lb SA follow up trigger of my Beretta. I can hang the Beretta by it's trigger and bounce it around on my finger with no dry fire. And it's a heavy 34 ounces unloaded. I like the Glock's trigger for the range but for CC, I've always felt a little apprehensive about it's ultra light trigger. I keep thinking I'd like a NY1 trigger spring in my G26.
As far as racking the slide in an urgent situation, I feel if I have the time to fumble around with my cover garment to draw from concealment, I should have the time to rack the slide on the way out. That and if I let the situation get to the point that I don't have a fraction of a second to rack the slide, I've failed miserably at SA and I'm probably done anyhow.
I would not want to tangle with this guy who appears to carry C3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w&feature=related

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 09:04
the military also doesn't even trust its members enough to allow them to legally carry personal weapons on a military installation. you think they trust an 18 year old MP with a chambered sidearm?
Which has nothing to do with much of anything, given the fact that the same method of carry was/is used by non-MP and older soldiers.
not to mention there is no guarantee that you will have both hands available to charge the slide. no matter how you want to slice it or try to convince yourself that carrying unchambered is only a fraction slower, in range practice, at the very least it still messes up your presentation.
As always, history is our friend. One can talk about all these supposed problems, but we have a long record to look at where it is rather clear that C3 does not hamper one in any significant way. I'm always amazed at all these folks on a gun board who proclaim how difficult it is to do something that young children, ladies, those with very limited training, etc. have managed to do regularly and successfully for decades. That is the first problem faced by those who wish to argue against C3, they must first explain how and why it has held up so well for so long in so many different situations. In spite of all the so-called problems, armed professionals all over the place have chosen it as the preferred method of carry, and outside the U.S. it is probably still the dominant method.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 09:05
I'm very familar. And a fraction of a second can be differance between 1st and last place.
Yes, but that fraction of a second can be the result of many things, not C3, and is only one small part of the overall CCW paradigm. And in spite of that fraction of a second we see no evidence of it being a problem for most CCW issues, as shown by the selection and voluntary use of C3 by so many around the world.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 09:18
from SevenSixtTwo:
As far as racking the slide in an urgent situation, I feel if I have the time to fumble around with my cover garment to draw from concealment, I should have the time to rack the slide on the way out. That and if I let the situation get to the point that I don't have a fraction of a second to rack the slide, I've failed miserably at SA and I'm probably done anyhow.
That is pretty much it. If you have time to draw at all you will generally have time to rack. If you don't have time to rack you generally are not going to be able to use the gun in the first place. We're talking about a fraction of a second, a time frame that is impacted by all sorts of things besides C3.

JBarbaresi
07-23-2011, 10:07
The difference is a long steady 8-14~ lb trigger on a revolver verses the no resistance pull and then a hair trigger break on the Glock. I really like our Glocks but I would prefer the 14lb DA/ 5~lb SA follow up trigger of my Beretta. I can hang the Beretta by it's trigger and bounce it around on my finger with no dry fire. And it's a heavy 34 ounces unloaded. I like the Glock's trigger for the range but for CC, I've always felt a little apprehensive about it's ultra light trigger. I keep thinking I'd like a NY1 trigger spring in my G26.
As far as racking the slide in an urgent situation, I feel if I have the time to fumble around with my cover garment to draw from concealment, I should have the time to rack the slide on the way out. That and if I let the situation get to the point that I don't have a fraction of a second to rack the slide, I've failed miserably at SA and I'm probably done anyhow.
I would not want to tangle with this guy who appears to carry C3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w&feature=related

good thing that paper target wasn't charging at him or ambushing him from a blind spot. and no, just because you can draw doesn't mean you can rack a slide. you guys do as you wish, i'm sure you will be fine because you will likely never need to use your gun in an SD situation anyways. too many people carry guns because it gives them a sense of security, if you've never been shot at or put in a true life or death situation you have no idea how your brain functions.

have a good day and make sure you practice if C3 is your choice.

SevenSixtyTwo
07-23-2011, 10:42
I've been attacked once by some gang initiating a new member. Woke up in the ER. Never saw it coming but I do remember the boot coming toward my face from behind right before lights out. I've been mugged once. Didn't see it coming either. Woke up face down on the sidewalk. I didn't see either coming as I was taught through society norm to ignore instincts and be cool. I've learned otherwise now and Situational Awareness is number one. It's worked for over 30 years. I've drawn one time on a guy who was walking toward me with a knife about 26 yrs ago. He stopped and after a few words went the other way. I didn't start shaking until a few minutes after the incident. I hope to never have to draw on anyone again but if I do, if it's like the first time, I was calm and deliberate until after when the adrenaline kicked in. I had no trouble cocking the old revolver and no trouble de-cocking it with one hand and the thumb. I'm just glad I didn't shoot him. I really don't want to live with that but one step closer and I would have.
I usually carry C1 but with IWB appendix, I'm a bit apprehensive and would consider C3 again for that reason.

K_Rasmussen
07-23-2011, 11:11
That is pretty much it. If you have time to draw at all you will generally have time to rack. If you don't have time to rack you generally are not going to be able to use the gun in the first place. We're talking about a fraction of a second, a time frame that is impacted by all sorts of things besides C3.

What if you other hand I busy?

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 11:26
good thing that paper target wasn't charging at him or ambushing him from a blind spot. you guys do as you wish, i'm sure you will be fine because you will likely never need to use your gun in an SD situation anyways. too many people carry guns because it gives them a sense of security, if you've never been shot at or put in a true life or death situation you have no idea how your brain functions.

have a good day and make sure you practice if C3 is your choice.
While there are no guarantees, generally if you can draw you can also rack. That has been shown over and over in actual fights. The myth of the fast-draw gunfight is just that, a myth. And like many myths while there is a small grain of truth to it there is far more to it than that small grain. If the small fraction of a second it takes to rack the slide determines your outcome you have more problems than racking the slide.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 11:34
What if you other hand I busy?
I assume you meant What if your other hand is busy? I would ask what if your gun hand is busy? Or what if the BG gets your gun away from you and tries to use it on you? What if, what if, what if? Perhaps that is the difference. Some folks base their SD plan on "what if" and others base it on "what happens." You can "what if" any scenario to stack the deck to provide any outcome you want. What if we deal with reality: That is the first problem faced by those who wish to argue against C3, they must first explain how and why it has held up so well for so long in so many different situations. In spite of all the so-called problems, armed professionals all over the place have chosen it as the preferred method of carry, and outside the U.S. it is probably still the dominant method.

BTW, anyone who is carrying an autoloader should be able to rack it one-handed, IMO. There are many ways to accomplish that.

K_Rasmussen
07-23-2011, 12:42
The myth of the fast-draw gunfight is just that, a myth.

I survived a fast draw gun fight, it happened so fast that I didn't know I drew my gun until I heard a BANG and saw my gun in my outstretched arm.you are no longer ignorant about the subject. You are the myth maker.

David Armstrong
07-23-2011, 13:06
I survived a fast draw gun fight, it happened so fast that I didn't know I drew my gun until I heard a BANG and saw my gun in my outstretched arm.you are no longer ignorant about the subject. You are the myth maker.
If you don't know how the gun got out there how do you know how long it took?:upeyes: But that beside the point, there is a grain of truth to the fast-draw myth. But C3 doesn't slow you down any more than a host of other things which is the point. Again, if you want to argue against C3 there is a simple hurdle to get over first: explain how and why it has held up so well for so long in so many different situations and why, iIn spite of all the so-called problems, armed professionals all over the place have chosen it as the preferred method of carry, and outside the U.S. it is probably still the dominant method.

JBarbaresi
07-23-2011, 13:22
In spite of all the so-called problems, armed professionals all over the place have chosen it as the preferred method of carry, and outside the U.S. it is probably still the dominant method.

many "armed professionals" are not allowed to carry with one chambered as a liability policy, because quite frankly a lot of people are too stupid or untrained to safely carry a loaded gun. i assure you every patrol i've ever gone out on in iraq or afghanistan, all weapons had one in the chamber. i've also personally been in several situations when having to charge a bolt/slide would have probably resulted in a different outcome. but i guess its a good thing i don't need to justify anything to anyone but myself, and i choose to carry my CCW ready to pull the trigger.

as much as i'd like you to provide facts or references to support these claims, i'm not holding my breath.

K_Rasmussen
07-23-2011, 13:46
If you don't know how the gun got out there how do you know how long it took.

About 5 to 10 times faster than if I had to rack the slide. :brickwall:

fuzzy03cls
07-23-2011, 20:17
I had this long response typed.... Not going bother. Do whatever you guys feel conformable with, That's all on you. But I will say find a good trainer & take some real SD gun fighting classes. Your missing out on so much.

Bill Lumberg
07-24-2011, 06:47
What do you mean "in" a belt clip? Are you talking about a clip-on holster, or without a holster at all? If you're talking about with a crip-draw, that's an ignorant way to carry a gun period, bullets or not. I've heard all the arguments about carring a Glock in C1 or C3, i carry mine in C3, accidents do happen in spite of training, and that is why there called accidents.
I've heard the same arguments that you should never carry your Glock in a belt clip, but if your carrying your Glock in C3 why wouldnt it be safe to carry it in a belt clip?

K_Rasmussen
07-24-2011, 08:35
David Armstrong, thanks for the infomative link on your posts.

David Armstrong
07-24-2011, 13:47
About 5 to 10 times faster than if I had to rack the slide. :brickwall:
Then obviously the problem is that you do not know how to do a chamber empty presentation, as that shouldn't ad but a small fraction of a second at worst.:faint:
thanks for the infomative link on your posts.
You're welcome. I find lots in the gun world is based on a whole lot of mythology, so we try to address some of the more popular issues. Always looking for input or authors, BTW, if you are interested.

David Armstrong
07-24-2011, 14:03
many "armed professionals" are not allowed to carry with one chambered as a liability policy, because quite frankly a lot of people are too stupid or untrained to safely carry a loaded gun.
Then it sounds as if you would agree that C3 provides advantages to some people and in some situations.
i assure you every patrol i've ever gone out on in iraq or afghanistan, all weapons had one in the chamber.
I assure you that carrying for CCW is not at all like going out on patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan.
but i guess its a good thing i don't need to justify anything to anyone but myself, and i choose to carry my CCW ready to pull the trigger.
Fine, if that is what is best for you go for it. But don't then try to argue about others who choose to carry their CCW in a different state of readiness that better meets their needs.
as much as i'd like you to provide facts or references to support these claims, i'm not holding my breath.
Oh geez, are you one of those? Someone who wants to try to argue over a topic that they don't even have the most basic knowledge of that topic? Anyone who doesn't recognize the factual nature of "In spite of all the so-called problems, armed professionals all over the place have chosen it as the preferred method of carry, and outside the U.S. it is probably still the dominant method" should probably go do some basic reading on the history of firearms and their use.

David Armstrong
07-24-2011, 14:06
I had this long response typed.... Not going bother. Do whatever you guys feel conformable with, That's all on you. But I will say find a good trainer & take some real SD gun fighting classes. Your missing out on so much.
I agree. One of the more interesting things about this is the number of people who change to the "C3 is a viable option" after having just a little training in the process. That may be why so many organizations have used it and still mandate it, they find it offers an excellent combination of SD readiness and mundane handling safety.

K_Rasmussen
07-24-2011, 14:20
[QUOTE=David Armstrong;17676037]Then obviously the problem is that you do not know how to do a chamber empty presentation, as that shouldn't ad but a small fraction of a second at worst.:faint:QUOTE]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/stendak/gunbang.jpg
assuming you have two hands to work with and you have time to spare.

David Armstrong
07-24-2011, 14:36
assuming you have two hands to work with and you have time to spare.
Like I said earlier, both of those little worries don't seem to hold up when looked at. It doesn't take much time, if any, and the "only one hand" problem just hasn't been seen as a problem over the last century.

K_Rasmussen
07-24-2011, 16:59
Like I said earlier, both of those little worries don't seem to hold up when looked at. It doesn't take much time, if any, and the "only one hand" problem just hasn't been seen as a problem over the last century.

Your hopeless, no fact could sway you. What I've been saying is only common sense, that C1 is faster than C3 and that you won't acknowledge this truth is telling.

JBarbaresi
07-24-2011, 19:20
Like I said earlier, both of those little worries don't seem to hold up when looked at. It doesn't take much time, if any, and the "only one hand" problem just hasn't been seen as a problem over the last century.

i find this hard to believe, and you saying it hasn't been a problem or that "most armed professionals in the US and around the world carry C3" is no different and no more substantiated than me saying the "only one hand" problem happens all the time and "most armed professionals in the US and around the world carry C1". they are just claims that you really have no way of proving, unless you know of some database that lists the carry method of every law enforcement agency, military, private security company, contracting agency, etc. who carry weapons.

your argument is the same one as saying "someone could walk up behind you and shoot you in the back of the head before you even have a chance to draw, therefore carrying a gun is pointless." the fact is that having your weapon ready to fire increases your odds of being able to respond in ANY situation. in 99% of SD situations will you have time to rack the slide first? probably, but 99% of the time you are armed you won't even need to use your gun either. does that mean you should leave it at home and take your chances without it?

like i said, whatever helps you sleep well at night, i honestly don't care what you do.

SCmasterblaster
07-24-2011, 21:07
Carry C1, and don't let ANYONE touch your gun.

David Armstrong
07-25-2011, 08:06
Your hopeless, no fact could sway you. What I've been saying is only common sense, that C1 is faster than C3 and that you won't acknowledge this truth is telling.
On the contrary, it seems as if you are the one who is unable to comprehend the facts. The facts are simple...C3 was the dominant method of carrying autoloaders for most of the 20th Century and it worked out just fine. It is still the dominant method of carrying autoloaders most places, and it works out fine. An emergency quick draw is only one part of the CCW paradigm, and a fairly small part at that. Add to that the fact that there are MANY things involved with carrying a firearm that can change the presentation time (holster retention devices, holster placement, holster design, choice of cover garments, bad DA triggers, etc) and nobody ever seems to worry about the "fast" effect with those items. Why? Because it just doesn't matter that much....much like C1 versus C3.

David Armstrong
07-25-2011, 08:31
i find this hard to believe, and you saying it hasn't been a problem or that "most armed professionals in the US and around the world carry C3" is no different and no more substantiated than me saying the "only one hand" problem happens all the time and "most armed professionals in the US and around the world carry C1".
I have not said that most armed professionals in the U.S. carry C3. That aside, there is a thing called an historical record. One should be familiar with it if one is going to discuss an issue.
they are just claims that you really have no way of proving, unless you know of some database that lists the carry method of every law enforcement agency, military, private security company, contracting agency, etc. who carry weapons.
Nonsense. I don't have to have a database to say that the dominant method of carry for LE in the U.S. is C1, or that the dominant method of carry for the U.S. military with the 1911 was C3, or that prior to the 1980s most U.S. LE carried revolvers, and so on. Certain items are (or should be) common knowledge. That C3 was the main method of autoloader carry for most of the 20th Century without any noticeable problems is one of those items. That you are unfamiliar with that says a lot.
your argument is the same one as saying "someone could walk up behind you and shoot you in the back of the head before you even have a chance to draw, therefore carrying a gun is pointless."
Nonsense. I have not said that or anything close to it.
the fact is that having your weapon ready to fire increases your odds of being able to respond in ANY situation.
While not exactly an accurate statement, it is only one part of the CCW paradigm. Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to C1 and there are advantages and disadvantages to C3. The trick is figuring out how to maximize the advantages while minimizing the disadvantages for your particular needs and situation.
in 99% of SD situations will you have time to rack the slide first? probably, but 99% of the time you are armed you won't even need to use your gun either. does that mean you should leave it at home and take your chances without it?
Lots of folks do that and make it home safe. But I don't suggest that, I think everyone should carry if they can legally and ethically. But what that does mean is that the chance of C1 making a difference is minuscule, and that C1 or C3 will not make any difference in the overwhelming number of DGU incidents.
like i said, whatever helps you sleep well at night, i honestly don't care what you do.
For one who doesn't care you sure seem to feel the need to write a lot about it.:dunno:

jhon
07-25-2011, 10:02
I may be wrong here, but if my memory servers me right, the Israeli Mosaad used to carry in C3. When they draw, they would rack the slide as the slide was on the left side. The gun was shot with the barral in the 900 o'clock position ( sideways ) instead of the 12 o'clock position that a majority of people shoot.

Now I do not know if they still do or some of them still do or if they have gotten away from that and gone to the C1 carry.

FWIW: I do carry in a C1 presently. But as has been said, no matter what you carry it in, one needs to practice and more practice to get and maintain muscle memory.

David Armstrong
07-25-2011, 10:56
I may be wrong here, but if my memory servers me right, the Israeli Mosaad used to carry in C3. When they draw, they would rack the slide as the slide was on the left side. The gun was shot with the barral in the 900 o'clock position ( sideways ) instead of the 12 o'clock position that a majority of people shoot.
Yes, C3 is so common in Israel that it is often referred to (incorrectly) as the Israeli Technique, although none of my instructors shot from the 9:00, they had us bring the gun up to the 12:00 position. The Israeli's just did what pretty much everybody at the time was doing (carrying C3), they just refined it and incorporated it into a broad defensive method.
Now I do not know if they still do or some of them still do or if they have gotten away from that and gone to the C1 carry.
Still most carrying C3, although C1 is making some inroads according to what I've been told. Which is pretty much the way it is in a lot of places outside of the U.S.

FWIW: I do carry in a C1 presently. But as has been said, no matter what you carry it in, one needs to practice and more practice to get and maintain muscle memory.
We can all use more trigger time.

ADK_40GLKr
07-27-2011, 20:14
Extra care must be taken when reholstering a Glock after it has been fired. Also when first holstering in C1. The trigger is hot under these conditions. A restraining strap or piece of clothing could pull the trigger back just enough to fire the weapon !

I do not reholster blind in C1. I once intentionally tried to "fire" an unloaded Glock by snagging the trigger and it works!

Flashy reholstering is for the movies and unrealistic cop shows on tv, but is dangerous to try in real life.

With my hard sided kydex OWB holster, I can look for foreign objects that might snag the trigger. With my nylon IWB, I either unload the mag and chamber, or I'll remove the holster and insert the gun C1, then fit the holster back in my waistband. It may look DORKY, but I'm not nailing myself in the foot or leg by showing off!

SCmasterblaster
07-27-2011, 20:42
When I reholster my C1.5 G17, the trigger and striker are deactivated.

ADK_40GLKr
07-28-2011, 05:44
When I reholster my C1.5 G17, the trigger and striker are deactivated.

Trying to get my head around "C 1.5". aftermarket safety?

Twin State Port? On Connecticut River? Or Burlington? (though i'd consider VT & NH the Twin States)

SCmasterblaster
07-28-2011, 10:31
Trying to get my head around "C 1.5". aftermarket safety?

Twin State Port? On Connecticut River? Or Burlington? (though i'd consider VT & NH the Twin States)

Yes, it is an aftermarket safety called the Otapin. It holds the slide out of battery by a quarter of an inch, and is easily removable. I live in Harford, VT just on the west side of the CT River that divides NH and VT.