Personal Progressive Press Experiences [Archive] - Glock Talk

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glock20c10mm
07-20-2011, 21:06
Which progressive press(es) do you own?

How old is it or are they?

How many rounds have you loaded with it/them? (educated guesses are fine)

Kenjones
07-20-2011, 21:34
Dillon 550B, about 18 years old, 20-25,000 rounds and still going...

natgas
07-20-2011, 21:42
Dillon 550b, 650, both 6 months old, about 11,000 rounds total

fredj338
07-20-2011, 21:44
I have had two 550B, one was 25yrs old, easily over 150K rds, sold it to a friend last year & he is still loading on it. The other 550B is maybe 18yrs old, probably 50K rds on that one. The 650 is only a year old, less than 4K rounds on it but I am working on that.

Boxerglocker
07-20-2011, 23:34
Started on a LCT 2.5 years ago bought new loaded 3-4K of 9mm / .40 in a couple months then realized I needed something faster.
Then owned 2 SDB's that I purchased used loaded maybe 35K combined in 9mm/.40S&W/.380ACP/.45ACP over 18 months or so. Made the consolidation to all 9mm for games and personal defense and upgraded to a new XL650 started on it 10 months ago 19-21K loaded of 9mm and .223 so far.

Colorado4Wheel
07-21-2011, 07:13
550. Only about 4 years. Over 100K rounds.
LCT (twice now) Not a lot of rounds. Maybe 5K total.
LnL 6 months, Maybe 4K rounds.
650. Perhaps 4K rounds or more in 3 months or so.

Hoser
07-21-2011, 07:56
3 Dillon 1050s. 100K+ of ammo loaded around 75-100K pieces of 300 Whisper formed/trimmed on one of them. One is 10-12 years old, an early Super that replaced my reallllllly old RL-1050 that had 200-250K. Another showed up in 2005 and a third in 2008.

2 Dillon 550s. 10-15K. 10 years old.

Spolar hydro shotshell reloader that replaced a Hornady APEX. 18-20K. 4 years old.

My first progressive was a RCBS Ammo master that I bought in 1994 when I came home from Somalia. It was not a very good progressive press. These days it is no longer a progressive, it loads 50 BMG.

jmorris
07-21-2011, 08:10
2 SD's 25 years old, I would bet each has had at least 100k loaded in their life. Both have been back home a time or two over the years for free tune ups.

2 650's not sure of age as I didn't buy them new. I load at least 20,000 rounds a year with them.

2 366's again used 1000/yr

1 LNL a few years old 500/yr +- (it was cheap)

1050 5yr old +-, 7-10k/yr

GioaJack
07-21-2011, 08:28
I only buy and shoot factory, better ammo and much cheaper.


Jack

fredj338
07-21-2011, 09:15
I only buy and shoot factory, better ammo and much cheaper.


Jack

Plus you don't have to carry a new press upstairs every couple years.:tongueout: The butler probably handles the ammo for you.

GTRhino24
07-21-2011, 09:19
Dillon SDB - 10mm - 1 month - 1000rds and counting...

shotgunred
07-21-2011, 11:07
Dillon 550 4 years 60 K or so. Sold it for #35 less than I payed for it.
Dillon 650 less than a year. about 3K so far.
Lee turret press. 20 years. I have no Idea how many rounds, a lot less than the 550.
Rock chucker 20 years. I have no Idea how many rounds, this was my main press for ever. Three of us loaded on it so it could easily be well over 100 K.
LNL AP. a month, with less than a thousand rounds.

Presses I would buy again.

Rock chucker
Dillon 550
Dillon 650

ron59
07-21-2011, 11:25
Dillon 550B.
2 years....

~40,000 rounds (mostly 9mm, 2000 were .45ACP)

unclebob
07-21-2011, 12:40
Dillon 550 about 13 years 200,000 rds. And sold it and bought the Dillon 650 18 years 200,000+rds.

Ceapea
07-21-2011, 16:36
RCBS RS2, single stage. I received it last August, 14,000+ rounds so far!! :wow:

Not a progressive but, a bunch of rounds in a year.

n2extrm
07-21-2011, 16:59
My first was a 550b, loaded thousands and thousands of rounds of everything, pistol rifle, everything I shot. I loved the press but hated the primer slide. I think I ran it for 7 years or so? I don't really remember.


I have 2 650s now. The first was set up along side the 550 and has 4-5K or so rounds through it, just about a year old. I liked it so much more then my 550 that Isold the 550and bought a second 650. Close to 9 months or so old. I Have probably 2-3K rounds through it and still love it too.

ETA: All my rifle is being done with a singel stage these days, but I do plan to go back to the 650 for .223 soon. I domiss the simplisity of the 550 sometimes. It is easier if you want to clear a problemor if you want to load rifle almost like a single stage. Some folks have no issues with the primer slide on the 550.

ron59
07-21-2011, 18:18
My first was a 550b, loaded thousands and thousands of rounds of everything, pistol rifle, everything I shot. I loved the press but hated the primer slide.

I hear you. Mine worked pretty dang good for the first 30,000 or so rounds. Not so much lately. I had called them back in Feb/March... turned out a "gouge" from where the spent primer catcher rubs the primer slide was causing the problem? I guess? Because it worked okay for another 4k or so, but now it just constantly catches.

Called them on Tuesday... they're sending a new slide AND the primer housing (where the slide slides through) to me. Hopefully that will take care of things.

bxny10455
07-21-2011, 18:26
550b & a LnL AP both less than a year. Over 3k combine rounds.


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin

noylj
07-21-2011, 19:00
I have gone through a Hornady Pro-Jector, Pro 7, and a L-N-L. Loved every one of them.
Tried a 550 and 650 and didn't like them--to used to the ergonomics of the Hornady.
Now, I also have three Dillon 1050s, the only press I have even tried that was "better" than my Horndadies.
650 was OK, but you HAVE to have a case feeder to enjoy it. Loading 20-25 bullets into a tube every few minutes gets old fast. Never even considered a case feeder for the L-N-L, it is comfortable to use.
Have no experience with RCBS or Lee.
Do know that the Dillon powder measure is easier to use than the Hornady (not better, just easier) and whatever powder measure you use, get cartridge-specific powder-through expander inserts (Dillon calls theirs "powder funnels").

Tpro
07-21-2011, 20:24
LnL AP for about 10 months.

About 25000 rounds, as I load 2500 rd/month on average.

Only 1 adjustment. I adjusted the right pawl to correct case alignment.

Other than that it has been 100%

I would tell any first time reloader to consider the LnL AP. Easy to master, almost bullet proof and very upgradeable.


What else could you want?

I would say that I was priviledged enough to be allowed to see the collection of presses a friend has. He has 2 LnL AP's a couple of LM's (one is in pieces...everyone should see that) 2 650's, a 550b, some single stage presses of which I don't remember the brands. I looked them all over and even used a few of them. That was how I settled on the LnL AP. Only after I made the decision on which press I was going to purchase (I actually ordered the press in front of him) did he tell me his opinions of the presses. He didn't want to influence my decision. He has actually become a evry close associate and I have had my learning curve steepened due to his ability to teach and think. So a public thanks to him here (I know he reads this stuff but usually doesn't post) THANK YOU UNCLE CLIFFY!!!

cole
07-21-2011, 21:14
Currently have two orginal (preupgrade) SDBs. One 9mm and the other .45acp. Over 50k total through them combined I guess in the past 3-4 years. I've mixed-n-matched parts over the years to keep one running while the other was awaiting parts or with Dillon. So, not sure the round # breakdown on either. Broken handle, broken frame, broken shellplate and broken link arm have been the major breakages. Otherwise, just a few of the smaller parts.

themighty9mm
07-21-2011, 22:29
Dillon 550. Owned about a year. Loaded 4-5k. Got laid off or it would be a helluvalot more

Gokyo
07-21-2011, 22:34
Dillon 650
308
40
9mm
10mm
30-06
223/5.56

at least 40k

fredj338
07-21-2011, 23:59
I hear you. Mine worked pretty dang good for the first 30,000 or so rounds. Not so much lately. I had called them back in Feb/March... turned out a "gouge" from where the spent primer catcher rubs the primer slide was causing the problem? I guess? Because it worked okay for another 4k or so, but now it just constantly catches.

Called them on Tuesday... they're sending a new slide AND the primer housing (where the slide slides through) to me. Hopefully that will take care of things.

It should. I had sim problems around the 50K mark, replaced the slide. Then again around 100K, another new slide & housing this time. Now it's almost like new again. The 650 primer system is so much better IMO.

ron59
07-22-2011, 07:30
It should. I had sim problems around the 50K mark, replaced the slide. Then again around 100K, another new slide & housing this time. Now it's almost like new again. The 650 primer system is so much better IMO.

I don't have experience with it, and I"m glad to hear that. I'm definitely upgrading this winter with my bonus money. At least a 650 if not a 1050. Not so much because of the priming problems I've experienced, but I want the casefeeder to speed things up.

I'll keep the 550B (for now) for .45ACP, which I load a much lower volume of. Maybe eventually even get another .650 and have the "large primer / small primer" setup.

El_Ron1
07-22-2011, 08:48
Dillon love me long time. Since '84.

alank2
07-22-2011, 09:14
Hi,

Dillon 550, loaded 9mm, 38spl, 357mag, 40s&w, 10mm, 44spl, 44mag, and 45/70 on it.

I've probably loaded 7-8K rounds on it by now, had it for about 5 years.

Thanks,

Alan

unclebob
07-22-2011, 11:49
I have gone through a Hornady Pro-Jector, Pro 7, and a L-N-L. Loved every one of them.
Tried a 550 and 650 and didn't like them--to used to the ergonomics of the Hornady.
Now, I also have three Dillon 1050s, the only press I have even tried that was "better" than my Horndadies.
650 was OK, but you HAVE to have a case feeder to enjoy it. Loading 20-25 bullets into a tube every few minutes gets old fast. Never even considered a case feeder for the L-N-L, it is comfortable to use.
Have no experience with RCBS or Lee.
Do know that the Dillon powder measure is easier to use than the Hornady (not better, just easier) and whatever powder measure you use, get cartridge-specific powder-through expander inserts (Dillon calls theirs "powder funnels").
So it I read your post right. You have owned Hornady pressís before. And have only tried the 650 press. And did not like the ergonomics of the Dillon press. That is understandable because you are use to the Hornady press. Also the height of the reloading press may not have been to the height for you to be comfortable with. Just a couple of inches in height can make a world of difference. You also stated that loading 20 or 25 cases ever so often gets old fast. Doesnít grabbing a case putting it in the shell plate then grabbing a bullet and putting in on the charged case all with the left hand get old? But the part I cannot figure out is that you say you have 3 1050 press. Why not have gotten a 650 pull one of the case feeders off of the 1050 put in on the 650 and you would not have to worry about filling the case feed tube every 20 or 25 rounds.
As for powder measures there is nothing saying that you cannot put a Dillon powder measure on a LNL or a LNL powder measure on a Dillon.
Iím very glad you like your LNL press at least you got one that works and you are happy with it.

kcbrown
07-22-2011, 14:35
Lee Pro 1000. 1.5 years. 1.5 million rounds.

What, you guys don't believe me? I can't imagine why... :whistling:


(must be because you think I don't own a Pro 1000. I assure you, I do)


:supergrin:

Steve Koski
07-22-2011, 14:38
Dillon 550

Purchased around 1997?

~100,000 rounds

What a POS. Thankfully I have the patience of Job.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 15:14
glock20c10 should just get his LnL already. He already said that is what he is going to do. Then we wouldn't be drawn to these threads like a moth to a flame.

ron59
07-22-2011, 15:55
glock20c10 should just get his LnL already. He already said that is what he is going to do. Then we wouldn't be drawn to these threads like a moth to a flame.

Totally agree.

Not sure exactly what he was expecting to "get" after the previous threads. Pretty much everybody gave "their reasons" for why they had chosen what they did in those, yet here we are again.

Honestly, while I'm seeing "how long, and how many rounds" posted here... it's still boils down to personal choices and preferences.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 16:24
He is just trying to convince himself it's OK to buy the cheaper press.

Just like the people who eventually get the Dillon are trying to convince themselves it's OK to spend more.

unclebob
07-22-2011, 16:24
I think he is leaning towards the LNL but is not completely 100% sure yet.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 16:43
There is no way he gets the Dillon.

WiskyT
07-22-2011, 16:55
There is no way he gets the Dillon.

He wants to get the LNL, but he wants your approval.

n2extrm
07-22-2011, 16:56
He is just trying to convince himself it's OK to buy the cheaper press.

Just like the people who eventually get the Dillon are trying to convince themselves it's OK to spend more.

I believe you get what you pay for, I think you would too. I have been through it with tools, computers, home furnishings. When ever I try to justify buying cheap I end up buying twice. Just MHO. As usual others will dissagree...


Stupid flatlanders......:rofl::rofl:

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 17:04
I 100% think he should get the LnL. I did recommend the Dillon for him initially but I have changed my mind.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 17:05
I believe you get what you pay for, I think you would too. I have been through it with tools, computers, home furnishings. When ever I try to justify buying cheap I end up buying twice. Just MHO. As usual others will dissagree...


Stupid flatlanders......:rofl::rofl:

I agree 100%. Remember I have owned a LoadMaster and a LnL.

glock20c10mm
07-22-2011, 18:37
I think he is leaning towards the LNL but is not completely 100% sure yet.
At least someone has been paying attention without making assumptions. And yes, till tax returns arrive ~ February/March 2012 which will be when I will be forced to make a decision. Pretty sure no one will have to break my arm to make that decision though!:supergrin:

As for the flack I'm taking for even putting up this thread, what gives? I'ld say regardless anyone's opinion on any press, it's actually been quite an interesting read. Not to mention there's no sign anyone is shying away from it, including YOU Steve!:supergrin:

n2extrm mentioned about getting what one pays for and that buying cheap commonly means buying twice. I generally agree. Just ask my other half.:shocked: She's always asking me if I'm always going to be like this, never settling for second best within my means. I tell her yes, probably. She's learning though. Most recently she found out that there is a reason a good set of kitchen knives beat the dirt cheap set she originally owned.

Back to presses, I don't consider the Hornady LNL AP to be cheap!!! At the same time I consider it overpriced, you can just imagine what I think about the cost of ownership of a Dillon 650. Not to mention what it costs just to begin loading another cartridge. Holy you know what! I'm getting the biggest kick out of the numerous posters I've seen comment that they buy 2 650s because they're too lazy to switch the machine over from different sized primers! Wish I had their money! As it stands, I obviously don't. And if "they" had the money they'ld like to have, they'ld probably have a pair of Camdex loaders in their reloading ROOM too.

That all said, just like Steve knows, I am still leaning toward a LNL AP. Cost is one factor, and like I said, I don't consider it to be a cheaply built press by any stretch! I though the LEE progressive fit that bill till kcbrown said he owns a Lee Pro 1000 that has ~1,500,000 loaded after a mere 1.5 years.:shocked: I can hardly believe it's not a lie, but why would he lie? Plus, who in their right mind would lie to that extent. In the end I figure it's true. After watching some youtube footage of the LEE progressive in action, it appeared to me that if one sneezes hard enough, that the primer feed setup would fly right off the back of the press and hit the back wall of the reloading room! Must be tougher than it looks.:supergrin: Either that or kcbrown is very ginger with his.

Anyway, in all the time I've spent around here, I get the sense from pretty much everyone, that regardless the strength of their opinions, it seems like the Dillon crowd, in the end, is somehow still respectful of the Hornady LNL AP, and visa versa with the Hornady crowd. Then there are those that have simply settled on a LEE, seemingly, without regret. As for the RCBS progressive press, it almost seems like it's taboo to even mention them, as NO ONE DOES!!! Not sure what's up with that, but whatever, as I'm not jumping toward it either.

BTW, am I missing something, or does Dillon not offer a bullet feeder? What's up with that? Not trying to stir the pot, just saying. Even RCBS has a bullet feeder available, though, one person spoke up about it in one of the other threads and said it wouldn't work right. Then he got the Hornady bullet feeder and said it worked fine.

All in all, I am very happy with this thread, along with all the others I've put up, and don't see any reason why anyone wouldn't be. Thanks to all who have posted, and to those who are going to post but haven't yet!

El_Ron1
07-22-2011, 19:06
Dillon 550

Purchased around 1997?

~100,000 rounds

What a POS. Thankfully I have the patience of Job.And ham hands.

Need better security around here. Where's bp?

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 19:06
BTW, am I missing something, or does Dillon not offer a bullet feeder? What's up with that? Not trying to stir the pot, just saying. Even RCBS has a bullet feeder available, though, one person spoke up about it in one of the other threads and said it wouldn't work right. Then he got the Hornady bullet feeder and said it worked fine.

RCBS offers a bullet feeder because they could not figure a reliable way to add a casefeeder to their existing press with out redesigning it.

Hornady bullet feeder seems to get good reviews. It's loud (like their casefeeder), but overall people seem happy with it.

Mr. Bullet Feeder is quiet and amazingly good for how cheap it looks.

You mention you don't view the LnL as cheap. Most people who get a LnL have to polish something, tweek something, etc. Basically, they have to do finish work that Hornady didn't do. To me that is a cost saving effort. Same with the Hollow ram, same with the primer punch putting a dimple into the frame. Any number of things Hornady doesn't have that the Dillon does. Basically, the Hornady is a De-Contented press. All of the above (and more) design shortcuts, plus, no low primer alarm, no std ptx setup, no case specific caliber parts for the case feeder. Dillon cost more because it has more.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 19:12
BTW, am I missing something, or does Dillon not offer a bullet feeder? What's up with that? Not trying to stir the pot, just saying.

Hornady doesn't offer

1 Strong Mount
2 Roller Handle
3 Low Powder alarm
4 Electric Primer Filler
5 Press mounted trimmer.

The ones in Bold are actually kinda nice to have. You can get a bullet feeder from anyone and put it on your Dillon. That's easy. Try making the nice Strong Mount or a Low primer or Low Powder Alarm. Not so easy.

ron59
07-22-2011, 19:43
Hornady only came out with their bullet feeder in the last 6 months or so. As was said, Mr. Bullet Feeder works fine with Dillon.

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 20:00
You can put the Hornady Bullet Feeder on the Dillon as well.

unclebob
07-22-2011, 20:02
Dillon recommends the kiss bullet feeder. Yes it costs about 200.00 more than the Hornady or the RCBS bullet feeder. Have you looked at a LNL and a Dillon 650 in person? To me there is no comparison in the workmanship between the two. Look at all the pictures of people putting Dillon things on a LNL. I donít think I have seen a picture of anything of Hornady on a Dillon. There might be someone that has put the powder measure on the Dillon but that is about it.

n2extrm
07-22-2011, 20:14
At least someone has been paying attention without making assumptions. And yes, till tax returns arrive ~ February/March 2012 which will be when I will be forced to make a decision. Pretty sure no one will have to break my arm to make that decision though!:supergrin:

As for the flack I'm taking for even putting up this thread, what gives? I'ld say regardless anyone's opinion on any press, it's actually been quite an interesting read. Not to mention there's no sign anyone is shying away from it, including YOU Steve!:supergrin:

n2extrm mentioned about getting what one pays for and that buying cheap commonly means buying twice. I generally agree. Just ask my other half.:shocked: She's always asking me if I'm always going to be like this, never settling for second best within my means. I tell her yes, probably. She's learning though. Most recently she found out that there is a reason a good set of kitchen knives beat the dirt cheap set she originally owned.

Back to presses, I don't consider the Hornady LNL AP to be cheap!!! At the same time I consider it overpriced, you can just imagine what I think about the cost of ownership of a Dillon 650. Not to mention what it costs just to begin loading another cartridge. Holy you know what! I'm getting the biggest kick out of the numerous posters I've seen comment that they buy 2 650s because they're too lazy to switch the machine over from different sized primers! Wish I had their money! As it stands, I obviously don't. And if "they" had the money they'ld like to have, they'ld probably have a pair of Camdex loaders in their reloading ROOM too.

That all said, just like Steve knows, I am still leaning toward a LNL AP. Cost is one factor, and like I said, I don't consider it to be a cheaply built press by any stretch! I though the LEE progressive fit that bill till kcbrown said he owns a Lee Pro 1000 that has ~1,500,000 loaded after a mere 1.5 years.:shocked: I can hardly believe it's not a lie, but why would he lie? Plus, who in their right mind would lie to that extent. In the end I figure it's true. After watching some youtube footage of the LEE progressive in action, it appeared to me that if one sneezes hard enough, that the primer feed setup would fly right off the back of the press and hit the back wall of the reloading room! Must be tougher than it looks.:supergrin: Either that or kcbrown is very ginger with his.

Anyway, in all the time I've spent around here, I get the sense from pretty much everyone, that regardless the strength of their opinions, it seems like the Dillon crowd, in the end, is somehow still respectful of the Hornady LNL AP, and visa versa with the Hornady crowd. Then there are those that have simply settled on a LEE, seemingly, without regret. As for the RCBS progressive press, it almost seems like it's taboo to even mention them, as NO ONE DOES!!! Not sure what's up with that, but whatever, as I'm not jumping toward it either.

BTW, am I missing something, or does Dillon not offer a bullet feeder? What's up with that? Not trying to stir the pot, just saying. Even RCBS has a bullet feeder available, though, one person spoke up about it in one of the other threads and said it wouldn't work right. Then he got the Hornady bullet feeder and said it worked fine.

All in all, I am very happy with this thread, along with all the others I've put up, and don't see any reason why anyone wouldn't be. Thanks to all who have posted, and to those who are going to post but haven't yet!



I get such a kick out of this comment. I have 2 650s so I can leave 1 set for 45the caliber I load and shoot the most and the other one does the rest. Yes one is SP the other LP. I am not rich, but I spend my money the way I see fit. I wonder what you drive? My truck is a 1988 F350 diesel, 250K miles on it with a stick. I paid around $3k for it many years ago. My reloading and shooting is where I chose to spend my money instead of a new truck and I don't see any reason to change that.

Additionally if you figure a quick change caliber conversion is almost $200 and I bought a whole press set up in a caliber for around $460 with my FFL discount, it made sense to me.

The LNL is a cheap progressive, compare it to the other models it is trying to compete with. Nothing wrong with that it is your money and you can spend it on a LNL. I just look at how it is put together, how it works and what has to be done with it by most users. Then look at the price point and I consider it cheap.

As for a camdex, I don't think so. I wouldn't even consider a 1050 to me it is too much press. Others have multiple 1050's and it how they chose to spend what they saved. Doesn't make it wrong or them rich, just works for them.

Dillon had published or posted something IIRC that said they will not put out a bullet feeder. They feel it moves the machine to a commercial level not hobbyist. Something to that effect. I believe they also said it was a safety concern as is with automation.

n2extrm
07-22-2011, 20:17
Dillon recommends the kiss bullet feeder. Yes it costs about 200.00 more than the Hornady or the RCBS bullet feeder. Have you looked at a LNL and a Dillon 650 in person? To me there is no comparison in the workmanship between the two. Look at all the pictures of people putting Dillon things on a LNL. I donít think I have seen a picture of anything of Hornady on a Dillon. There might be someone that has put the powder measure on the Dillon but that is about it.


Thanks Bob.

I may have been wrong in my post. I thought they were against adding bullet feeders. I know you have more contact with Dillon then I do, so I am sorry if I got it wrong. :wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
07-22-2011, 20:21
Rich is being able to waste your money.
Cheap is spending it wisely.

freakshow10mm
07-22-2011, 23:19
BTW, am I missing something, or does Dillon not offer a bullet feeder? What's up with that? Not trying to stir the pot, just saying.
Dillon doesn't offer a bullet feeder because of their presses being able to be fitted with an OEM case feeder, export laws would require them to get State Department approval for each international shipment of a reloading press regardless of whether it has a bullet feeder shipped with it or not. Under the ITAR regulations, it would fall under a defensive article and be subject to ITAR/State Department regulations. By not providing a bullet feeder in their catalog, they do not come within the ITAR regs as they are not considered a defensive article. That's why Dillon doesn't have bullet feeders.

El_Ron1
07-22-2011, 23:20
Rich is being able to waste your money.
Cheap is spending it wisely. Now we're getting somewhere!

http://i53.tinypic.com/2j2bwvl.jpg

glock20c10mm
07-23-2011, 00:44
Dillon doesn't offer a bullet feeder because of their presses being able to be fitted with an OEM case feeder, export laws would require them to get State Department approval for each international shipment of a reloading press regardless of whether it has a bullet feeder shipped with it or not. Under the ITAR regulations, it would fall under a defensive article and be subject to ITAR/State Department regulations. By not providing a bullet feeder in their catalog, they do not come within the ITAR regs as they are not considered a defensive article. That's why Dillon doesn't have bullet feeders.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something you posted above, it's still not making sense to me that they aren't producing one for sale within the USA only. No intention of making a big deal about it, just saying. Thoughts?

glock20c10mm
07-23-2011, 02:00
You mention you don't view the LnL as cheap. Most people who get a LnL have to polish something, tweek something, etc. Basically, they have to do finish work that Hornady didn't do. To me that is a cost saving effort. Same with the Hollow ram, same with the primer punch putting a dimple into the frame. Any number of things Hornady doesn't have that the Dillon does. Basically, the Hornady is a De-Contented press. All of the above (and more) design shortcuts, plus, no low primer alarm, no std ptx setup, no case specific caliber parts for the case feeder. Dillon cost more because it has more.
I didn't mean cheap as in poor design and low quality workmanship and or fit & finish. I meant not cheap as in it costs too much to be considered low cost.

But yes, I understand numerous brand new LNL presses haven't worked as they should out-of-the-box. This is disconcerting to me. At the same time there are those that have no issue with theirs. On a positive note they do overall seem structurally sound. As for the hollow ram, how do you think the press would benefit if it were solid? I have yet to hear anyone suggest they see flex within the hollow ram itself.

Whether a low primer alarm is offered or not has no bearing on the press being "cheap", in the way you used the word "cheap". As for no standard ptx setup, a bit nitpicky, aren't you? I don't see any Dillon press coming from the factory with quick change die bushings. Yet they can be purchased and added to a Dillon, thanks to Hornady.

As for no case specific caliber parts for the case feeder, what? Hornady offers 4 different case feeder plates. Caliber specific or not, and whether they work flawlessly or not for all cartridges meant to work with each specific case feeder plate is beyond me, but they do still make a case feeder plate for all (within some limit I suppose) applications.

Lastly you mentioned Dillon cost more because it has more. Yeah, until it comes to wanting to load a different cartridge. What's their excuse for that one? Too lazy to improve user cost/friendliness? Let me guess, you're answer to that is; Why mess with perfection?

Let me ask you this. If the Dillon presses are so "GREAT", why would they need to offer a spare parts kit??? Maybe because they're too lazy to make parts that would hold up (other than things that one has only limited control over such as spring life)? Maybe because they want to keep the price magins at a certain level without further raising MSRP?

Here's something to think about.....have you ever heard about a LNL AP wearing out overall to the extent a new press was warranted? I haven't. And after a bug or two is worked out on a new LNL AP that requires such work, does the press generally not work fine afterword, more/less just as well as any other brand? I have yet to hear different except in a case like yours where the problem never was resolved.

And, I wonder what you would think by now, had the LNL you bought been one of the ones that work just fine. I understand the frustration you went through with the issues your LNL gave you, leaving a very bad taste in your mouth. By the same token, knowing that there are plenty of happy LNL owners out there, you gave up the chance to own a whole different new LNL that may very well have worked perfectly.

I'm not saying you owed the Hornady another chance. What I am saying is it's always possible to get a non fixable lemon no matter what you buy. And clearly, it usually doesn't take much to get a Hornady LNL AP running perfectly fine if needed, when needed at all.

You know what will really rattle your cage? If in some months down the road I still choose to get a LNL AP, me getting a LNL AP that works smooth as silk. If that actually happens, I would be willing to bet you would assume I have to be lying. And personally, if I do choose to go with a LNL AP, I really hope it works out that way!:)

glock20c10mm
07-23-2011, 02:06
Have you looked at a LNL and a Dillon 650 in person? To me there is no comparison in the workmanship between the two.
It would be very helpful if you wouldn't mind sharing some examples to put it into perspective for those of us that haven't.

glock20c10mm
07-23-2011, 02:26
I get such a kick out of this comment. I have 2 650s so I can leave 1 set for 45the caliber I load and shoot the most and the other one does the rest. Yes one is SP the other LP. I am not rich, but I spend my money the way I see fit. I wonder what you drive? My truck is a 1988 F350 diesel, 250K miles on it with a stick. I paid around $3k for it many years ago. My reloading and shooting is where I chose to spend my money instead of a new truck and I don't see any reason to change that.

Additionally if you figure a quick change caliber conversion is almost $200 and I bought a whole press set up in a caliber for around $460 with my FFL discount, it made sense to me.
I see where you are coming from. Nothing wrong with living as inexpensively as possible in order to afford toys one would otherwise not have. You are an exception to the rule of most (at least the way it seems with most nowadays).

The LNL is a cheap progressive, compare it to the other models it is trying to compete with. Nothing wrong with that it is your money and you can spend it on a LNL. I just look at how it is put together, how it works and what has to be done with it by most users. Then look at the price point and I consider it cheap.
Examples of the cheapness compared to other brands would be very helpful in understanding what and where you're coming from.

Colorado4Wheel
07-23-2011, 07:02
As for no case specific caliber parts for the case feeder, what? Hornady offers 4 different case feeder plates. Caliber specific or not, and whether they work flawlessly or not for all cartridges meant to work with each specific case feeder plate is beyond me, but they do still make a case feeder plate for all (within some limit I suppose) applications.

You just don't even know what I am talking about. It's not about he casefeeder plate. But I am not going to explain it again. Maybe someone else will.

LnL works for some and not for others because of poor QC.

Get the LnL. I think you should. You dismiss the value of the Dillon. So get the LnL.

I doubt you need anything more then a LCT. Thats what is so funny about this conversation.

El_Ron1
07-23-2011, 07:38
Now we're getting somewhere!

http://i53.tinypic.com/2j2bwvl.jpg

You just don't even know what I am talking about. It's not about he casefeeder plate. But I am not going to explain it again. Maybe someone else will.

LnL works for some and not for others because of poor QC.

Get the LnL. I think you should. You dismiss the value of the Dillon. So get the LnL.

I doubt you need anything more then a LCT. Thats what is so funny about this conversation.

http://www.hipstrumentals.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/WC-Thats-What-Im-Talking-About.jpg

n2extrm
07-23-2011, 07:57
First lets look at the spare parts kit. It has small items like springs, set screws, detent balls items commonly lost or worn out. I used mine on the 550 because I have fat fingers and gravity works. It's Sunday at 9 PM and I Finlay got some time to load when manage to loose the detent ball and spring or strip the head of a set screw cause I got to tighten it like it's holding upa bridge. Grab the part from the bag and start loading. I call Dillon Monday at lunch and a spare ( spare spare really) is on it's way to me no charge. Convenience thats all. Every one of these companies should do the same thing IMHO.

The bushing are an example of cheapness. They work yeah, but Dillon you take the complete head off the machine, powder measure and all the dies. I leave the dies set, the powder measure set and place it on a tool stand. No shims and o rings to wear out and cause the dies to rotate, no rubber bands to help you out. A better fit from a machining stand point, more contact area between the die and the press spreads the load better. What you see as a flaw in Dillon I see as a weakness in the LNL.

The Dillon uses a specific set of parts for each caliber the Hornady has 1 to do several. Cheapness again. When you make one tool do several jobs it does them all Ok some better then others, but none of them really well. Think about a tight bolt and an adjustable wrench, or those multi-tools people carry on their belts. You can strip a wire, crimp a connection, tighten a screw, loosen a nut and even open a can with most of them. But I would not want to put together the kids swing set with one. Yeah it would work, but it would be better at opening a beer then tightening 5/16 nuts all day. OK that is an extreme but I think you get the idea.

Please don't get me wrong I do believe you can make great amount of quality ammo with the LNL, I just think the Dillon 550 or even a 650 is a better machine. I personally think if price is the issue buy a 550 especially if you don't want or need a case feeder.

I am not trying to talk you into a Dillon, I believe you want a LNL. That is fine I don't care what you use so long as you are loading and having fun with it. I just think people fall into the price or cost over all and try to get the most items for the least money. (IE: more calibers for less money spent on conversions) Take your time learn to load the one caliber you shoot the most save a few bucks and buy another caliber conversion. I started with .308/rifle because it was the most expensive caliber I shot and I shot alot of it. Then I did 9mm soon I added .38 and it grew. OK in hind sight I should have done pistol before rifle but hey pistol really was simple after rifle!:rofl:

freakshow10mm
07-23-2011, 09:15
Unless I'm misunderstanding something you posted above, it's still not making sense to me that they aren't producing one for sale within the USA only. No intention of making a big deal about it, just saying. Thoughts?
In order to do that, they would have to cease all international sales and shipments and require their distributor network to do the same. From a business perspective, the profit made from international sales far exceeds the potential profit they would make selling a bullet feeder equipped press in the US only.

Myke_Hart
07-23-2011, 09:36
First lets look at the spare parts kit. It has small items like springs, set screws, detent balls items commonly lost or worn out. I used mine on the 550 because I have fat fingers and gravity works. It's Sunday at 9 PM and I Finlay got some time to load when manage to loose the detent ball and spring or strip the head of a set screw cause I got to tighten it like it's holding upa bridge. Grab the part from the bag and start loading. I call Dillon Monday at lunch and a spare ( spare spare really) is on it's way to me no charge. Convenience thats all. Every one of these companies should do the same thing IMHO.

The bushing are an example of cheapness. They work yeah, but Dillon you take the complete head off the machine, powder measure and all the dies. I leave the dies set, the powder measure set and place it on a tool stand. No shims and o rings to wear out and cause the dies to rotate, no rubber bands to help you out. A better fit from a machining stand point, more contact area between the die and the press spreads the load better. What you see as a flaw in Dillon I see as a weakness in the LNL.

The Dillon uses a specific set of parts for each caliber the Hornady has 1 to do several. Cheapness again. When you make one tool do several jobs it does them all Ok some better then others, but none of them really well. Think about a tight bolt and an adjustable wrench, or those multi-tools people carry on their belts. You can strip a wire, crimp a connection, tighten a screw, loosen a nut and even open a can with most of them. But I would not want to put together the kids swing set with one. Yeah it would work, but it would be better at opening a beer then tightening 5/16 nuts all day. OK that is an extreme but I think you get the idea.

Please don't get me wrong I do believe you can make great amount of quality ammo with the LNL, I just think the Dillon 550 or even a 650 is a better machine. I personally think if price is the issue buy a 550 especially if you don't want or need a case feeder.

I am not trying to talk you into a Dillon, I believe you want a LNL. That is fine I don't care what you use so long as you are loading and having fun with it. I just think people fall into the price or cost over all and try to get the most items for the least money. (IE: more calibers for less money spent on conversions) Take your time learn to load the one caliber you shoot the most save a few bucks and buy another caliber conversion. I started with .308/rifle because it was the most expensive caliber I shot and I shot alot of it. Then I did 9mm soon I added .38 and it grew. OK in hind sight I should have done pistol before rifle but hey pistol really was simple after rifle!:rofl:

I would not call it cheapness. It's design genius.

Example:
If I want to rearrange the die layout, with the LNL bushings, I can do so in 2 seconds as well as transfer the die to a single stage without adjustment. IMO this is a LNL design advantage for caliber conversions, no tool head to swap. I only need to change 2 parts to convert to a completely different primer and brass without a case feeder. Now with the case feeder I have to change a maximum of 3 more parts (Drop tube, V push foot, and metal drop tube to shell plate).

If you are doing 1 caliber only this LNL design advantage is lost (null and void) and win goes to dillon. This is why you see so many dedicated dillon machines to a single caliber. It takes a long time to set the machine to a specific caliber, so people buy multiple machines (we as humans are lazy). LNL owners never seem to go above 2 machines (small primer, large primer) to get around changing the primer stem. Because LNL users tend to be lazier than the dillon bunch.

As for LNL bushing I have never seen one wear out. I have broken one... on purpose (see my threads):whistling:. If they do break, or if they somehow did wear out or they are replaced for free. The female bushings in the LNL itself can be replaced if broken, just screws out, again itís free to replace. If you were to strip a tool head in the dillon, the whole tool head will need to be replaced, again it is free, but you will have to reset all your dies again. Not a big deal. But you are waiting for your part while a LNL user takes a bushing from another die and continues to load.

If you (Dillon user) need to remove a die to use in your single stage you would end up having to reset the die again after you were done. Not too big a deal, but for me, a deal breaker. I would need to purchase another set of dies for my single stage because I would not want to mess with my perfect dillon die setup. Those of you may argue thatís what the lock ring is for. Yes it is, but the position would be moved for the single stage to function properly.

The case feeder on the dillon 650 has the edge as being a better 1 caliber design. But looses the edge when it is time to switch calibers. It is a rock solid design. A lot of parts.

As for quality control over the LNL. The jury is still out for me. Every press I have encountered with a so called problemÖ. Has actually been user error, or poor reloading component, or a quick sand of a small burr. I have not found a press I could not fix by laying hands on it. Sometimes there truly is a bad part causing an issue. Sometimes itís something else entirely silly. If you are having problems, stop, stand back, and think the problem thru, donít be afraid to consult the manual, then PM your buddies here. They can help sometimes.

If dillon wanted me to buy a press, all they would have to do is make a tool head with the larger 1-1/4"-12 threads. So I can have the best of both worlds. All my non hornady presses have the bushings in them.:supergrin:

The 550 in my opinion does not even belong in the conversation as it is a manual index machine. A great machine none the less. But I personally donít want to index manually and 650 users donít want to either. Well just say the 550 is awesome, but out of scope.

Both brand machines are awesome, each will be better in one way over another, both have come out with some impressive innovations, lets agree that your personal machine is the best machineÖ. lets get over it. :wavey:

shotgunred
07-23-2011, 10:06
n2extrm mentioned about getting what one pays for and that buying cheap commonly means buying twice. I generally agree. Just ask my other half.:shocked: She's always asking me if I'm always going to be like this, never settling for second best within my means. I tell her yes, probably. She's learning though. Most recently she found out that there is a reason a good set of kitchen knives beat the dirt cheap set she originally owned.


That is not true. If it was you would just buy a 1050 and be done with it. You are either having fun tiring to bait Steve or you are just wanting people to tell you that your choice of the LNL is best regardless.

Sorry I have to tell the wife she is right regardless of how badly she chooses. but not you. You need to buy the LNL and prove all the blue guy wrong!

WiskyT
07-23-2011, 12:18
http://techrights.org/files/trolltracker/20080528155008/troll.gif

Colorado4Wheel
07-23-2011, 12:54
That is not true. If it was you would just buy a 1050 and be done with it. You are either having fun tiring to bait Steve or you are just wanting people to tell you that your choice of the LNL is best regardless.

Sorry I have to tell the wife she is right regardless of how badly she chooses. but not you. You need to buy the LNL and prove all the blue guy wrong!

Notice I stirred the pot pretty good yesterday. I am now sitting at a airport bored and this thread is entertaining me emmensly.

Funny, His wife is cheap and so is Glock20c. He is working pretty darn hard to prove the cheaper press is better so he can pretend he bought the better press. He doesn't know enough about them to really even know what to say about them. Just a bunch of internet hearsay. He wants the LnL to be the better press SOOO BADLY that he has selective hearing. Things like claiming the Dillon has a problem because it offers a spare parts kit. Totally shows he doesn't know the type of people who buy a Dillon. They reley on them to work. The expect to NOT have down times and they are more then happy buy the spare part kit to keep the press running even in the unlikely event that something breaks. The real question is why doesn't Hornady offer one. Even he has admitted that the LnL has a problem. I will post some links very soon.

WiskyT
07-23-2011, 13:00
Notice I stirred the pot pretty good yesterday. I am now sitting at a airport bored and this thread is entertaining me emmensly.

Funny, His wife is cheap and so is Glock20c. He is working pretty darn hard to prove the cheaper press is better so he can pretend he bought the better press. He doesn't know enough about them to really even know what to say about them. Just a bunch of internet hearsay. He wants the LnL to be the better press SOOO BADLY that he has selective hearing. Things like claiming the Dillon has a problem because it offers a spare parts kit. Totally shows he doesn't know the type of people who buy a Dillon. They reley on them to work. The expect to NOT have down times and they are more then happy buy the spare part kit to keep the press running even in the unlikely event that something breaks. The real question is why doesn't Hornady offer one. Even he has admitted that the LnL has a problem. I will post some links very soon.

Could you please show some examles of this?

Colorado4Wheel
07-23-2011, 13:27
I would not call it cheapness. It's design genius.

Example:
If I want to rearrange the die layout, with the LNL bushings, I can do so in 2 seconds as well as transfer the die to a single stage without adjustment. IMO this is a LNL design advantage for caliber conversions, no tool head to swap. I only need to change 2 parts to convert to a completely different primer and brass without a case feeder. Now with the case feeder I have to change a maximum of 3 more parts (Drop tube, V push foot, and metal drop tube to shell plate).

If you are doing 1 caliber only this LNL design advantage is lost (null and void) and win goes to dillon. This is why you see so many dedicated dillon machines to a single caliber. It takes a long time to set the machine to a specific caliber, so people buy multiple machines (we as humans are lazy). LNL owners never seem to go above 2 machines (small primer, large primer) to get around changing the primer stem. Because LNL users tend to be lazier than the dillon bunch.

As for LNL bushing I have never seen one wear out. I have broken one... on purpose (see my threads):whistling:. If they do break, or if they somehow did wear out or they are replaced for free. The female bushings in the LNL itself can be replaced if broken, just screws out, again itís free to replace. If you were to strip a tool head in the dillon, the whole tool head will need to be replaced, again it is free, but you will have to reset all your dies again. Not a big deal. But you are waiting for your part while a LNL user takes a bushing from another die and continues to load.

If you (Dillon user) need to remove a die to use in your single stage you would end up having to reset the die again after you were done. Not too big a deal, but for me, a deal breaker. I would need to purchase another set of dies for my single stage because I would not want to mess with my perfect dillon die setup. Those of you may argue thatís what the lock ring is for. Yes it is, but the position would be moved for the single stage to function properly.

The case feeder on the dillon 650 has the edge as being a better 1 caliber design. But looses the edge when it is time to switch calibers. It is a rock solid design. A lot of parts.

As for quality control over the LNL. The jury is still out for me. Every press I have encountered with a so called problemÖ. Has actually been user error, or poor reloading component, or a quick sand of a small burr. I have not found a press I could not fix by laying hands on it. Sometimes there truly is a bad part causing an issue. Sometimes itís something else entirely silly. If you are having problems, stop, stand back, and think the problem thru, donít be afraid to consult the manual, then PM your buddies here. They can help sometimes.

If dillon wanted me to buy a press, all they would have to do is make a tool head with the larger 1-1/4"-12 threads. So I can have the best of both worlds. All my non hornady presses have the bushings in them.:supergrin:

The 550 in my opinion does not even belong in the conversation as it is a manual index machine. A great machine none the less. But I personally donít want to index manually and 650 users donít want to either. Well just say the 550 is awesome, but out of scope.

Both brand machines are awesome, each will be better in one way over another, both have come out with some impressive innovations, lets agree that your personal machine is the best machineÖ. lets get over it. :wavey:

First, The problems with the LnL are not because of the user. Thats crazy. Start with priming. Exactly how hard is it to push to prime? Primer in the cup, push, your done. Lots of people have problems with the LnL doing just that. You can push hard enough to flex the hollow ram and it still will not seat the primer.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125569&st=50

If you read the thread (I am 98sr20ve) you will see lot of others have the same issue. I still get PM's from people with the same problems I had. It's not isolated. I am on slow free internet so I am not going to pull up all the other threads.

Case Slider on the LnL is also problamatic. Here is what a HAPPY LnL owner had to do to get it to work right with 9mm.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1344627

Not exactly easy was it?

The other part of the equation is that I am convinced there is a good % of LnL owners (its often their first press) who just accept the 2% failure rate as normal. Thats 2 out of 100 that don't go bang. 2 out of 100 that don't go into the shellplate. I won't accept that as good.

I thought I would like the individual bushing on the LnL. After some time, I grew to hate them. Every time I needed to adjust the flare (for instance) you would try and loosen the die and the entire bushing would turn. Then you lost your reference for where the die was before the change. Just a PITA. You had to use a shim on the Powder Measure die to keep it from turning. Half the time I tried to take the powder measure off it would break the lock nut free and I would need to reset that die. Another PITA. I almost never remove a single die on my press. If I do it's easy to mark the die to the toolhead and return it to the same place. Lee has a bushing setup like the LnL but they actually lock in place. That would be a better setup. I don't see the LnL bushings as a huge advantage or disadvantage, I personally don't like them, I can see how someone would like them.

550 is a great press. Because the OP is worried about cost he should strongly consider the 550. But people who have a phobia about autoindexing make him too nervous to consider that great option. My 550 was flawless, easy to setup, good instructions, fast (100rds in 8 mins), reliable. It's only downside is the primer setup needs to be kept clean. I would clean it every time I used it (wipe with a rag) and take it apart for cleaning every 2-5K rounds. That is it's only weakness in the design. It's so minor it's a non-issue to me.

650 is not that hard to convert. People make a big deal about it. Mostly to justify buying two presses or the quick change. Quick change is nice. Parts on the LnL are a lot smaller. To me the 650 was easier to convert then the LnL. The LnL primer punch is very hard to reach. The powder measure is a PITA to adjust for flare (compared to Dillon). Dillon Primer shuttle takes longer to change. Neither is that much better or worse then the next. Biggest difference is the 650 actually has caliber specific parts (case slider guide, powder funnel, case feeder funnel. LnL doesn't have those parts and it's less reliable as a direct result of the lack of those parts.

Did I mention I am bored?

ursoboostd
07-23-2011, 13:55
Cracks me up when people are just trying to hate Dillon.

unclebob
07-23-2011, 14:08
On the Dillon 650 I can go from loading 9mm to loading 45acp. In about 7 to 10 minutes. Not including filling primer tube. With the Vibra Prime that does not take long. I have never heard of someone striping out a tool head on a Dillon. Once the dies are installed they stay installed. I have never understood why you would even need to take the dies out of one press and put them in another press. If Iím doing load development I do it on the Dillon 650. Why would I even need to do it on a single stage press? Sizing the case is the same on either press. I can install the primer on the press. I can pull the case out of the press if I do not want to use the powder measure to add the powder. I just use the powder measure to bell the case. Installing the bullet is the same and crimping is the same. The only difference is the adding the powder. You just do it the same way as if you would if you are using a single stage press.
I have the LNL bushings on my Rock Chucker. The thing I hate about it is the storage of the dies. I like the Dillon and the tool stand 100% better. Pull the fail safe rod off, pull two pins and remove the tool head. Grab the other tool of what you want. After replacing the shell plate slide the tool head in put the two pins back in. Install the fail safe rod.
For me I only need one Dillon 650. I use the small primer punch for both large and small primers. Instead of two presses I have two primer magazines one set up for small primers and one set up for large. Two screws to take out and two screws to install. The primer disk is what guides the primer in not the punch. A primer magazine is a lot cheaper than another 650.

Colorado4Wheel
07-23-2011, 14:09
Cracks me up when people are just trying to hate Dillon.



LOL. So true.

Only thing to not like about the Dillon is the price of caliber conversion kits. Besides that what is not to like? Press prices are a little higher (but not a huge amount).

Next thing he is going to complain about is that you need a strong mount, roller handle, and all the other goodies that Dillon offers. He will totally ignore the fact that he is willing to accept the Hornady with out any of those options but on a Dillon it makes the press too expensive.

n2extrm
07-23-2011, 14:43
[QUOTE=Myke_Hart;17670672]I would not call it cheapness. It's design genius.

Example:
If I want to rearrange the die layout, with the LNL bushings, I can do so in 2 seconds as well as transfer the die to a single stage without adjustment. IMO this is a LNL design advantage for caliber conversions, no tool head to swap. I only need to change 2 parts to convert to a completely different primer and brass without a case feeder. Now with the case feeder I have to change a maximum of 3 more parts (Drop tube, V push foot, and metal drop tube to shell plate).

OK first flaw in this logic, you can't add powder after the bullet is seated, you can't size after the powder is in the case, so why are you changing the layout of the dies. The steps happen in progression.

If you are doing 1 caliber only this LNL design advantage is lost (null and void) and win goes to dillon. This is why you see so many dedicated dillon machines to a single caliber. It takes a long time to set the machine to a specific caliber, so people buy multiple machines (we as humans are lazy). LNL owners never seem to go above 2 machines (small primer, large primer) to get around changing the primer stem. Because LNL users tend to be lazier than the dillon bunch.

It takes minutes to change calibers on most dillon presses with the exception of the 1050. I believe you see more people with multiple Dillons because they are willing to pay for convenience. Most guys buying the LNL are worried about cost,so they are not buying a second press. Most not all.

As for LNL bushing I have never seen one wear out. I have broken one... on purpose (see my threads):whistling:. If they do break, or if they somehow did wear out or they are replaced for free. The female bushings in the LNL itself can be replaced if broken, just screws out, again itís free to replace. If you were to strip a tool head in the dillon, the whole tool head will need to be replaced, again it is free, but you will have to reset all your dies again. Not a big deal. But you are waiting for your part while a LNL user takes a bushing from another die and continues to load.

No matter what if you strip or break one the feild is level you are waiting for a replacement unless you bought spare. I have seen broken LNL bushing, never saw a Dillon tool head fail. Reseting the dies really is not that big of a deal, especialy when you consider no one has ever haad to replace the tool head for failure. Remeber what I said it is the amount of force over the area that makes me feel it is inferior, that is measureable.

If you (Dillon user) need to remove a die to use in your single stage you would end up having to reset the die again after you were done. Not too big a deal, but for me, a deal breaker. I would need to purchase another set of dies for my single stage because I would not want to mess with my perfect dillon die setup. Those of you may argue thatís what the lock ring is for. Yes it is, but the position would be moved for the single stage to function properly.

Sorry mike maybe you got lucky but I don't buy that the LNL bushing magicaly is going to make up for the diffrence in 2 presses. The distance from the shell holder to the last thread on any press is going to be diffrent. Even two of the same model will differ to some degree. So no mater how good the bushings are to get a correct adjustment you will have to tweak it even a little.

The case feeder on the dillon 650 has the edge as being a better 1 caliber design. But looses the edge when it is time to switch calibers. It is a rock solid design. A lot of parts.

As for quality control over the LNL. The jury is still out for me. Every press I have encountered with a so called problemÖ. Has actually been user error, or poor reloading component, or a quick sand of a small burr. I have not found a press I could not fix by laying hands on it. Sometimes there truly is a bad part causing an issue. Sometimes itís something else entirely silly. If you are having problems, stop, stand back, and think the problem thru, donít be afraid to consult the manual, then PM your buddies here. They can help sometimes.

I Agree 100%

If dillon wanted me to buy a press, all they would have to do is make a tool head with the larger 1-1/4"-12 threads. So I can have the best of both worlds. All my non hornady presses have the bushings in them.:supergrin:

You probably could drill and tap it to take the bushings, but why? I never meassured the bushings and figured thread depth but it could be done as easily as all the polishing to make a LNL work.

The 550 in my opinion does not even belong in the conversation as it is a manual index machine. A great machine none the less. But I personally donít want to index manually and 650 users donít want to either. Well just say the 550 is awesome, but out of scope.

I dissagree, I loaded on a 550 for years and the indexing really is no big deal because the machine is so well laid out. I grab a bullet in the left hand a case in the right. My hands come back to the press, thumb clicks the star and right hand pulls the lever. Case feeder I will give you. If you want a case feeder then you are in 650 LNL only talks. Not many people have made the leap to the 550 case feeder and been happy. Just the way it is. It was an after thought and just seems lacking.

Both brand machines are awesome, each will be better in one way over another, both have come out with some impressive innovations, lets agree that your personal machine is the best machineÖ. lets get over it. :wavey:


That I could not agree with you more on.

El_Ron1
07-23-2011, 14:48
My Dillon spare parts kit was the worst investment I ever made.

unclebob
07-23-2011, 14:55
You cannot drill out and tap the Dillon tool head and install the LNL bushings there is not enough room on the tool head.

unclebob
07-23-2011, 15:12
My Dillon spare parts kit was the worst investment I ever made.

Yes it is until the night before a match and you are trying to load ammo for it that you forgot to load. And a simple part that is the parts kit brakes or goes flying across the room into never wonder land. Then you will be glad you bought it. But if you can wait on parts to be delivered then yes it is a waste of money.

Peter M. Eick
07-23-2011, 17:10
Pro2000. 11 years of use and will cross 300,000 rounds loaded in the next week or two.

Great press, works well and really no big issues. Like any tool you have to figure out how to use it.

kcbrown
07-23-2011, 19:01
That all said, just like Steve knows, I am still leaning toward a LNL AP. Cost is one factor, and like I said, I don't consider it to be a cheaply built press by any stretch! I though the LEE progressive fit that bill till kcbrown said he owns a Lee Pro 1000 that has ~1,500,000 loaded after a mere 1.5 years.:shocked: I can hardly believe it's not a lie, but why would he lie? Plus, who in their right mind would lie to that extent. In the end I figure it's true. After watching some youtube footage of the LEE progressive in action, it appeared to me that if one sneezes hard enough, that the primer feed setup would fly right off the back of the press and hit the back wall of the reloading room! Must be tougher than it looks.:supergrin: Either that or kcbrown is very ginger with his.


:rofl:


Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :supergrin:


In reality, I have probably a couple of thousand rounds through my Pro 1000 so far. I had it and a Loadmaster set up to do 9mm, and ended up deciding I liked the Pro 1000 better because the "push to prime" setup allows for feeling when priming doesn't work right and doesn't adversely affect any other operations if it doesn't work right. On the Loadmaster, if you get a failure to prime (e.g., you get a case with a crimped primer pocket), it will affect the current bullet seating operation at a minimum. The LM setup also doesn't do a good job of accounting for minor dimensional differences in the cases you feed it, so you have to set up the primer depth to account for the case with the deepest set primer you may encounter, which will tend to push the primer perhaps slightly too hard into the pocket of a case that has a relatively shallow primer pocket.

All of those combined together caused me to gravitate towards the Pro 1000. I can make the Loadmaster work reasonably reliably, but I can't be quite as confident of the resulting rounds as those I produce on the Pro 1000.

Myke_Hart
07-23-2011, 20:01
OK first flaw in this logic, you can't add powder after the bullet is seated, you can't size after the powder is in the case, so why are you changing the layout of the dies. The steps happen in progression.



Ah, you are thinking the wrong type of re-arranging. I was talking about the fact you can shift the dies to use a lockout die, a powder cop, a dedicated expander, or PTX instead, a onboard brass trimmer, a dedicated seater, or a seater crimp, or the dreaded FCD. You know shift the dies around. I do this all the time. But it was funny you thought I was talking otherwise. :rofl:

n2extrm
07-23-2011, 20:16
Ah, you are thinking the wrong type of re-arranging. I was talking about the fact you can shift the dies to use a lockout die, a powder cop, a dedicated expander, or PTX instead, a onboard brass trimmer, a dedicated seater, or a seater crimp, or the dreaded FCD. You know shift the dies around. I do this all the time. But it was funny you thought I was talking otherwise. :rofl:

Gotcha now. I don't do that I am a lay it out and leave it alone guy. If I wanted a decaping die or bullet puller I would just set it up on the rock chucker. I have left 1 station open on the 650, keep toying with what powder check to use, then I drool over the kiss bullet feeder and have to stop myself! :rofl:

unclebob
07-24-2011, 09:21
For the OP I would suggest since you have quite a few months before you are going to buy a press. I would get the ABC of reloading and read it. Down load onto paper the Dillon 650 and the LNL instruction manuals. Read them, look at the parts breakdown of both press and see how they operate. Find someone that has a Dillon press and someone that has a LNL. Your sporting goods store might have a LNL setup that you can look at. My reloading supply store has a LNL setup and is one of the pressís they use for teaching reloading. And they let me play around with it. It is the only way you are going to understand what people are trying to tell you. I have and listening to what other people are saying and the hit or miss troubles they are having with the LNL, I know I would never buy one. But whatever press you decide to get I hope it works out for you.

freakshow10mm
07-24-2011, 09:54
My Dillon spare parts kit was the worst investment I ever made.
It is nice to have the part on hand for quick repairs, then utilize their warranty to send a replacement part to keep your kit stocked up.

Colorado4Wheel
07-24-2011, 13:10
My Dillon spare parts kit was the worst investment I ever made.

A very high complement.

noylj
07-24-2011, 15:06
I have used the various Hornadies (until the L-N-L, it was by paying for upgrade), the 550, the 650, and the 1050.
With Dillon, I hated feeding a new case using my right hand. I am used to doing all those operations with my left hand and leaving my right hand on the handle.
I also appreciated the fact that the charged case was directly "under my nose", where as on the Dillons I had to bend way over to inspect the powder level.
I simply NEVER felt any need for a case feeder. I had to pick up a bullet and seat on a case, so the little extra motion of picking up a case and sliding it into the shellplate was simply of no importance/irritation.
Since getting a case feeder (on the 1050s), I have had one feeder that I have returned three times and it still isn't working right with .38 Special cases (so it is on my .45Auto machine).
On the Dillon 550 and 650 I had to get up and drop the cases into the tube or I had to get up every cycle and drop a case, using my right hand. I have a bad back and bad knees and can not keep jumping up and down to perform some mindless repetitive task.
My arthritis doesn't mind the picking up a case and bullet and inserting them. However, I have developed a shake in my left hand that makes it harder to carefully place a bullet on a case. I have been trying the Lee Bullet Feeder and Lee Bullet feeder and seater dies to hold the bullet. This still means that every cycle I drop another bullet in the die.
I have used the Dillon, Hornady, and Lee Pro Auto-Disk on all my progressives. I recommend the Dillon for those having problems with the Hornady (I didn't, but trying to set my son up on my L-N-L for .380Auto, I couldn't get the Hornady measure set to fully cycle--I know it can, but it has been about two years since I used the measure. The Dillon doesn't have the same repeatability to it, but with the caliber specific powder-through expander insert (or "powder funnel" as Dillon calls them) it is simply remove old insert, drop in the new one, and install the powder measure and adjust as needed. To me, the Dillon is simply the Lee Auto-Disk with an adjustable charge bar that actually works and a large enough hopper.
When I first though about a progressive (when Dillon brought out their first model with 4 stations, as I remember), I concluded that I wanted at least a five station press. When Hornady came out with the Pro-Jector (I think that was the first model) with 5 stations, I bought it and never regretted my decision.
Now, I am using 1050s, but if I have my wish, there would be one more station prior to the fixed priming station at station 4 (to give me more flexibility in terms of sizing--say using the Lee FCD die body for full-length sizing and the cartridge specific sizing die for "neck" sizing or to insert a Lyman M-die after the primer pocket swaging operation and simply flare/bell the case mouth at the powder charging step at station 5) and an extra station after powder charging for an RCBS Lock-Out die, then a bullet feed die, and then bullet seating and case crimp operations.
However, the idea of a 4-station press is simply not acceptable to my reloading operation. If you only have 4-station, why not three and get a Lee Pro-1000?
Thus, if you don't need a case feeder, get a Hornady L-N-L. If you need a case feeder and don't want to spring for a 1050, then get the 650. The 550 and SDB are simply NOT for me any more than the Lee Pro-1000 would be acceptable to my mind.
Between the 550 and SDB, I would prefer the auto-indexing for the SDB.
I see the SDB and 550 being for people like Mike Ventorino (sp?) who has a single load for a given cartridge that he uses for all guns in that caliber and simply needs to crank out a lot of ammo quickly. Someone who has another press for load development and is willing to give up some precision for simplicity.
Your choice simply needs to made AFTER looking at all the options and not simply going along with what "top shooter A" uses. "Top shooter A" may only even reload because of competition and may have no other criteria than what can crank out the most usable ammunition in the least amount of time.
You need to know what is important to you and your reloading technique and needs and buy the press that best meets those needs. There is simply too much "I have an XYZ press and I think it is great, so you should buy XYZ also." Then you find out (a) he bought that press because that is what the guy next to him told him was the best press and (b) he has never used any other press or even considered other options.

Boxerglocker
07-24-2011, 15:08
In order to do that, they would have to cease all international sales and shipments and require their distributor network to do the same. From a business perspective, the profit made from international sales far exceeds the potential profit they would make selling a bullet feeder equipped press in the US only.

Not to mention that falling within ITAR regulations requires a whole slew of additional overhead. Segregated inventory, concessional paperwork to abide within ITAR regulations and training considerations for any and all Dillon employees that have any dealing with ITAR controled products.

Boxerglocker
07-24-2011, 15:14
My Dillon spare parts kit was the worst investment I ever made.

Yes it is until the night before a match and you are trying to load ammo for it that you forgot to load. And a simple part that is the parts kit brakes or goes flying across the room into never wonder land. Then you will be glad you bought it. But if you can wait on parts to be delivered then yes it is a waste of money.

:agree: Been there, done that :whistling:

Javelin
07-24-2011, 15:36
This has got me very interested in getting a Dillon press.

Anyone running a special on the Dillon 550 or 650s at the moment?

ursoboostd
07-24-2011, 15:56
This has got me very interested in getting a Dillon press.

Anyone running a special on the Dillon 550 or 650s at the moment?

I'm pretty sure its just a standard price. I don't know of any deals that go on for Dillon presses. I get all my stuff through http://www.brianenos.com/

WiskyT
07-24-2011, 16:04
Your choice simply needs to made AFTER looking at all the options and not simply going along with what "top shooter A" uses. "Top shooter A" may only even reload because of competition and may have no other criteria than what can crank out the most usable ammunition in the least amount of time.
You need to know what is important to you and your reloading technique and needs and buy the press that best meets those needs. There is simply too much "I have an XYZ press and I think it is great, so you should buy XYZ also." Then you find out (a) he bought that press because that is what the guy next to him told him was the best press and (b) he has never used any other press or even considered other options.

While I don't necessarily agree with you on the values you assign to the various attributes of each press, I do agree with you on the part I quoted.

unclebob
07-24-2011, 19:03
While I don't necessarily agree with you on the values you assign to the various attributes of each press, I do agree with you on the part I quoted.

I also agree with you. If you care to check whenever a person asks about what press to buy. I do not jump in and tell them they need a Dillon 650 just because that is what I use. Like a lot of people. I ask them. What they shoot, how much they shoot, and how much time do they have to reload, etc. Based on that I give them my opinion I what I think that they need. But the OP wanted to know between a Hornady LNL and a Dillon 650. Not a SD, 550, 1050, Lee LM or any other press. So based on what he asked. In my opinion I think the 650 is a 100% better press than the LNL. I have not owned the LNL but I have studied the operation and mechanical features of the press, and I have played with it at the reloading supply store that has one set of for loading classes. Reading post about the troubles that a lot of people have or have had with the LNL. I just donít think it would be a good press for someone that has never loaded to start out with. Granted he might luck out and get a good one. Even Steve when he bought the LNL I knew he would not like it. But Like I told him and the same as with the OP I hope it works out for you. If he decides in getting the LNL. To me it is too much of a hit and miss if you are going to get a good one or not. Maybe in a couple of years If Hornady works the bugs out they might have a good press. But according to one post that says Hornady does not think that they have a problem.

unclebob
07-24-2011, 19:31
NOYLJ
Sorry but most of what you wrote to me did not make much since. The 550 has no tubes. Unless you have a 550 case feeder. The 650 since you say you own 3 Dillon 1050 and they come with a case feeder that means you have 3 cases feeders that you could put on a 650. There would be no jumping up and down. You could put the Dillon powder check on the press and you would not have to bend over to look inside the case. Since it will give an auto and also a visual check. You can also look inside the case at station 3 or station 4. It is also a true 5 station press. With all of the trouble you say you have. To me the 650 would have worked out for you 100% better. Because with the case feeder all you would have to do is pull the handle and place a bullet. But if the LNL works for you great. But the other thing that I cannot figure out is you say you donít need a case feeder on the LNL so why do you need 3 1050 that have case feeders? You also donít need another press to do load development. You can do the same thing on a 650 or a LNL. Or even the 1050. Also the subject on this thread that the OP wants to know about is the Dillon 650 and Hornady LNL. He is confused enough. Also my case feeder feeds 45 acp. 45gap brass just fine. Also about the 45 gap they said the same thing about the 10mm and .357 sig that they would not last.

n2extrm
07-24-2011, 19:36
NOYLJ
Sorry but most of what you wrote to me did not make much since. The 550 has no tubes. Unless you have a 550 case feeder. The 650 since you say you own 3 Dillon 1050 and they come with a case feeder that means you have 3 cases feeders that you could put on a 650. There would be no jumping up and down. You could put the Dillon powder check on the press and you would not have to bend over to look inside the case. Since it will give an auto and also a visual check. You can also look inside the case at station 3 or station 4. It is also a true 5 station press. With all of the trouble you say you have. To me the 650 would have worked out for you 100% better. Because with the case feeder all you would have to do is pull the handle and place a bullet. But if the LNL works for you great. But the other thing that I cannot figure out is you say you donít need a case feeder on the LNL so why do you need 3 1050 that have case feeders? You also donít need another press to do load development. You can do the same thing on a 650 or a LNL. Or even the 1050. Also the subject on this thread that the OP wants to know about is the Dillon 650 and Hornady LNL. He is confused enough. Also my case feeder feeds 45 acp. 45gap brass just fine. Also about the 45 gap they said the same thing about the 10mm and .357 sig that they would not last.

I was thinking the same thing bob. Left hand shakes but LNL is better??? Tube on a 550? Powder under his nose? It is plain as day in front of you and under your nose. I load sitting 99% of the time and have no problems.

I will say a 650 without a case feeder is a waste and a PIA. I have 2 machines and I swap the case feeder for now because loading without for any real volume is tough.

Colorado4Wheel
07-24-2011, 20:24
Even Steve when he bought the LNL I knew he would not like it. But Like I told him and the same as with the OP I hope it works out for you. If he decides in getting the LNL. To me it is too much of a hit and miss if you are going to get a good one or not. Maybe in a couple of years If Hornady works the bugs out they might have a good press. But according to one post that says Hornady does not think that they have a problem.

I tried to like it. I spent months learning it. EVEN if it had worked properly (priming and case slider). I still wouldn't think it was as good as my 550 and especially my 650. If I never wanted a casefeeder I would want to own a 550 over the LnL simply because it's easier to go fast with a 550 then a LnL. I prefer the 550 ergonomics. Probably because I am used to it. But I also prefer the powder measure, toolhead, roller handle, and conversion process.

650 is in a totally different league then the LnL. It's not even close. And thats comparing machines that work. LnL you have a pretty good chance it won't work as well. It might run OK but thats at 98%. Thats not good enough. Lots of LnL owners live with a 98% press it seems.

freakshow10mm
07-24-2011, 20:46
Not to mention that falling within ITAR regulations requires a whole slew of additional overhead. Segregated inventory, concessional paperwork to abide within ITAR regulations and training considerations for any and all Dillon employees that have any dealing with ITAR controled products.
I'm sure they'd just send over a specialist they have at Dillon Aero, since the Dillon mini-gun is on ITAR radar.

Boxerglocker
07-24-2011, 22:45
I'm sure they'd just send over a specialist they have at Dillon Aero, since the Dillon mini-gun is on ITAR radar.

Actually it's not just a matter of a single person signing off on it Freak. The entire program is subject even with just one item on the list and any and all people having any dealings would be subject to the training. Dillon Aero has it's own program and Dillon Reloading would need it's own as well.

freakshow10mm
07-25-2011, 09:48
Actually it's not just a matter of a single person signing off on it Freak. The entire program is subject even with just one item on the list and any and all people having any dealings would be subject to the training.
Yes I know this. I help out processing ITAR paperwork at my day job. We make stuff for the DoD and export to foreign companies. It sucks.

Dillon Aero has it's own program and Dillon Reloading would need it's own as well.
Correct, but the same person or group of persons could be the same.

glock20c10mm
07-25-2011, 10:12
You dismiss the value of the Dillon.
In the context of all I've posted that clearly is not the case. There are now a handful of occasions where you've suggested I think or have said something I haven't. Maybe it's just your nature.

glock20c10mm
07-25-2011, 10:28
That is not true. If it was you would just buy a 1050 and be done with it. You are either having fun tiring to bait Steve or you are just wanting people to tell you that your choice of the LNL is best regardless.

Sorry I have to tell the wife she is right regardless of how badly she chooses. but not you. You need to buy the LNL and prove all the blue guy wrong!
NONSENSE. Clearly there is that group of you that would like to believe that. Why? I'ld prefer not to guess. It just is.

Boxerglocker
07-25-2011, 10:40
NONSENSE. Clearly there is that group of you that would like to believe that. Why? I'ld prefer not to guess. It just is.

I think you should just buy the LNL if it suits your budget and you believe that the design in comparison to others is the equivilent. It's your choice.

Sounds like you banking on a tax refund which is months out to buy it anyways and by then Horandy may have a more solid issue to resolve the LNL issues forementioned. Plus buying a Dillon may subject you to further cost cause of sales tax in AZ so that may sway you yet again.

I debated the same and chose the Dillon right away as I had zero confidence that the case feeder could live to my expectations. Steve and Shotgun went the other route and did an about face and ran away. It's all about personal expectations and your aptitude to getting a machine to run right. They will all need tuning some alot more than others :upeyes:

glock20c10mm
07-25-2011, 11:53
Lot's of great info. Thanks everyone! It would appear that unless others show up that have yet to post, there is not much more to be said from the current crowd that hasn't already been said. Lots of repetition already. It's been highly informative. Thanks again to all.:wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
07-25-2011, 20:14
If some people would just pay better attentuio ;)

Your right it has gotten boring. You should start a new thread about using a. FCD die or perhaps Titegroup. Remember Ikm bored. Plus Jack is gone for another couple days.

GioaJack
07-25-2011, 22:34
Jack's been lurking... It's just that the shooting I've been doing the last few days has nothing to do with guns. God I love Ft. Worth. Woo-Hoo!!!


Jack

Boxerglocker
07-25-2011, 22:37
Jack's been lurking... It's just that the shooting I've been doing the last few days has nothing to do with guns. God I love Ft. Worth. Woo-Hoo!!!


Jack

Shooting blanks? :whistling:

pm666
07-25-2011, 23:14
Is it true that you can add a powder sensor (for powder loaded in the case) to the LNL, but this can't be done on a 550? I've always been concerned about too much or too little powder.

Boxerglocker
07-25-2011, 23:18
Is it true that you can add a powder sensor (for powder loaded in the case) to the LNL, but this can't be done on a 550? I've always been concerned about too much or too little powder.

LNL 5 station press, 550B 4 Station.... makes it easier to add a powder check die on a LNL.... you can do it on a 550B but would have to seat and crimp in the final station... personally wouldn't recommend it. I prefer doing it in separate operations.

glock20c10mm
07-26-2011, 04:29
If some people would just pay better attentuio ;)

Your right it has gotten boring. You should start a new thread about using a. FCD die or perhaps Titegroup. Remember Ikm bored. Plus Jack is gone for another couple days.
May or may not matter :dunno:, but I'm asking the questions below in direct relation to the LNL AP and XL 650, as I'm not considering a 550B or 1050.

How about thoughts on which charging system inherently throws a more accurate charge? Equal? So close it's hard to tell the difference? Noticeable amount?

Does either brand tend to have a cleaner/more-efficient (over the course of loading ~750 rounds) powder charge system than the other?

Do both brands make changing to a different powder any easier or more of a PITA than the other?

unclebob
07-26-2011, 06:35
Is it true that you can add a powder sensor (for powder loaded in the case) to the LNL, but this can't be done on a 550? I've always been concerned about too much or too little powder.

Pistol loading. Load standing and using a good light here you see into the case to verify the powder charge. So you really do not need a powder check. Put you can on either press on the 550 like was said you just would have to seat and crimp in the same station or die.
Rifle loading since you only use 2 dies you can use a powder check. For that I would since it is harder to look inside the case.

Colorado4Wheel
07-26-2011, 10:14
I am not here to tell you what you want to hear. So I feel good about saying "Get the 550 over the LnL". I don't care if you think you need auto index and powder check. I actually know you don't. I know the 550 has a better chance of success. If you don't like that advice then change above advice to 650.

unclebob
07-26-2011, 11:43
Letís put it another way. I have been loading for 50 years. There are two maybe three people on here that are regular posters that have loaded more than I have. So I know a little about what Iím talking about. You want either the LNL or the 650. You are leaning toward the LNL. That is very obvious. So do you want a press that when you get it? It may or may not work and have to send it back. Or be satisfied with a limited capability of a press that does not work right. Yes you could get one that works perfectly. But to me there are too many out there that has gotten the LNL and it has not worked right. Me personally I want a press that when I bought it I knew it would work 99.9% out of the box. I had a 550 and I have a 650 that both worked right the first time. Yes I have had parts break. But most of them were because I did something stupid. Some parts were in the parts kit that I bought, and some I had to wait on. If you like the Hornady powder measure better put it on the Dillon. And no you donít use the Hornady LNL bushings on a Dillon. They are just like dies they just screw in. And yes the conversions kits do cost more on a Dillon and conversions are easy to change. So do you want a press that many or not work or one that I know will. That there is you bottom line.
You say you live in SE Arizona. Why donít you make a little trip to the Dillon factory/store. 8009 E. Dillonís Way, Scottsdale, AZ 85260.

rocco123
07-26-2011, 12:43
Ih have a LnL and it works just fine. Caliber changes are not that much cheaper when you figure in the cost of extra bushings. just thought I'd throw that out there.

I've had a few issues, all of which were my problem. It's definitely not as bad as a few here believe. Auto indexing and the 5th station are nice (vs. The 550). Not necessary but nice, especially when both eyes should be on powder when you are in the zone. Hornady's customer service is awesome, as im sure dillon is as well.

That said my next press will be a 650 with the sole purpose of 223. I have no reason to not reload 45 on the LnL.

I will say the OP, if you go Hornady, go with Hornady dies as well. If you're tempted to go with Lee, you should know that the lee dies are pretty short for the LnL.

unclebob
07-26-2011, 12:48
Ih have a LnL and it works just fine. Caliber changes are not that much cheaper when you figure in the cost of extra bushings. just thought I'd throw that out there.

I've had a few issues, all of which were my problem. It's definitely not as bad as a few here believe. Auto indexing and the 5th station are nice (vs. The 550). Not necessary but nice, especially when both eyes should be on powder when you are in the zone. Hornady's customer service is awesome, as im sure dillon is as well.

That said my next press will be a 650 with the sole purpose of 223. I have no reason to not reload 45 on the LnL.

I will say the OP, if you go Hornady, go with Hornady dies as well. If you're tempted to go with Lee, you should know that the lee dies are pretty short for the LnL.
What is nice about the 650 and Lee dies if you need to, you can put the lock ring on the bottom of the tool head.

Colorado4Wheel
07-26-2011, 13:08
Lee dies work fine on the LnL. At least in 9mm and 40sw.

Colorado4Wheel
07-26-2011, 13:13
May or may not matter :dunno:, but I'm asking the questions below in direct relation to the LNL AP and XL 650, as I'm not considering a 550B or 1050.

How about thoughts on which charging system inherently throws a more accurate charge? Equal? So close it's hard to tell the difference? Noticeable amount?

Does either brand tend to have a cleaner/more-efficient (over the course of loading ~750 rounds) powder charge system than the other?

Do both brands make changing to a different powder any easier or more of a PITA than the other?

My Dillon setup Never Ever had issues with consistent dtrops. I had the LnL a lot less time. LnL has a couple light chaghes due to some rust in the drop tube. Other then that they both work fine. Not a reason to choose one over the other.

glock20c10mm
07-26-2011, 19:30
Thanks to all!:thumbsup: You guys are great bunch of fellas.:wavey:

noylj
07-27-2011, 18:02
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm
May or may not matter , but I'm asking the questions below in direct relation to the LNL AP and XL 650, as I'm not considering a 550B or 1050.
Since I have used both, I will give you my opinion

How about thoughts on which charging system inherently throws a more accurate charge? Equal? So close it's hard to tell the difference? Noticeable amount?
The Hornady L-N-L powder measure gives the most repeatable charge weights; however, the Dillon is easier to set-up. I find the Dillon to be harder to set at the target weight as a small turn makes a large difference and it takes 10-15 throws to be produce consistent weights. If you are concern about charge weight consistently and throwing an "exact" charge, get the Hornady. If you plan to find a charge that works and never change, get the Dillon. Also, with the Hornady, you can buy the powder metering assembly for about $10. Thus, if you want, you can store a metering assembly labeled with the cartridge, powder, and charge weight. With the Dillon, you buy a new powder measure if you want this type of future repeatability.

Does either brand tend to have a cleaner/more-efficient (over the course of loading ~750 rounds) powder charge system than the other?
Nope. Except with very fine powders (AA9 and True Blue), the Dillon can start to leak. The tolerances on the Hornady are too tight for leakage, but it makes switching rotors a bit more difficult due to the very tight fit.

Do both brands make changing to a different powder any easier or more of a PITA than the other?
With the Hornady, you can pull out the metering assembly and insert a powder discharge tube. Put the powder can, with a funnel to catch the powder, under the Hornady and the powder will drain out. If, however, there is static cling, you will still need to pull the powder measure off and tap the hopper to get the powder to drop or wipe it out. This is the same on the Dillon. The Dillon powder measure, however, has a clamp held by two bolts. If you loosen the two bolts and pull the clamg out, you can lift the powder measure off the die to empty it.
Remember, the Dillon powder measure is actually just a large Lee Pro Auto-Disk with a charge bar that actually works and a large hopper.
The Hornady is the more precise and accurate design that includes a more complicated set-up for the case-actuated powder-through expander, while the Dillon is a lot easier to set up but nor a fine a piece of equipment.
I prefer to have both, depending on what I am doing, and a Lee Pro Auto-Disk is always near-by.

glock20c10mm
07-27-2011, 18:48
noylj,

Thanks for a comprehensive review. BTW, don't know if you are the slow casual loader, or if you prefer to crank out what you can as reasonably fast as you can. My question is; Between the LNL and XL 650, do you notice that one of the two makes it easier to load more rounds per time frame over the other?

Also, if you use a case feeder in conjunction with the LNL press, how often does it fail to feed a case properly into the shell plate?

unclebob
07-27-2011, 19:00
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm
May or may not matter , but I'm asking the questions below in direct relation to the LNL AP and XL 650, as I'm not considering a 550B or 1050.
Since I have used both, I will give you my opinion

How about thoughts on which charging system inherently throws a more accurate charge? Equal? So close it's hard to tell the difference? Noticeable amount?
The Hornady L-N-L powder measure gives the most repeatable charge weights; however, the Dillon is easier to set-up. I find the Dillon to be harder to set at the target weight as a small turn makes a large difference and it takes 10-15 throws to be produce consistent weights. If you are concern about charge weight consistently and throwing an "exact" charge, get the Hornady. If you plan to find a charge that works and never change, get the Dillon. Also, with the Hornady, you can buy the powder metering assembly for about $10. Thus, if you want, you can store a metering assembly labeled with the cartridge, powder, and charge weight. With the Dillon, you buy a new powder measure if you want this type of future repeatability.

Does either brand tend to have a cleaner/more-efficient (over the course of loading ~750 rounds) powder charge system than the other?
Nope. Except with very fine powders (AA9 and True Blue), the Dillon can start to leak. The tolerances on the Hornady are too tight for leakage, but it makes switching rotors a bit more difficult due to the very tight fit.

Do both brands make changing to a different powder any easier or more of a PITA than the other?
With the Hornady, you can pull out the metering assembly and insert a powder discharge tube. Put the powder can, with a funnel to catch the powder, under the Hornady and the powder will drain out. If, however, there is static cling, you will still need to pull the powder measure off and tap the hopper to get the powder to drop or wipe it out. This is the same on the Dillon. The Dillon powder measure, however, has a clamp held by two bolts. If you loosen the two bolts and pull the clamg out, you can lift the powder measure off the die to empty it.
Remember, the Dillon powder measure is actually just a large Lee Pro Auto-Disk with a charge bar that actually works and a large hopper.
The Hornady is the more precise and accurate design that includes a more complicated set-up for the case-actuated powder-through expander, while the Dillon is a lot easier to set up but nor a fine a piece of equipment.
I prefer to have both, depending on what I am doing, and a Lee Pro Auto-Disk is always near-by.
It only takes me 3 or 4 throw to start throwing constant charges. Not 10 or 15. If you only want one powder measure you can also get extra powder bars or you can get a non-factory adjustable powder bar that a lot of people like. If your powder bar leaks you call Dillon and they well send you a thicker powder bar spacer. You do not need to take off or loosen any screw to empty the powder measure. You just pull off the fail safe rod, pull two pins, remove the tool head and empty the powder measure. Simple.
Can you get a squib load with the LNL or 650 yes. Can you double change on the LNL yes. On the 650 unless you do not use the fail safe system or put springs on the powder measure. Or if the loose nut standing in front of the press pulls the charged case out and puts it back under the powder measure and puts in another charge. It is almost fool proof. That happens when something goes wrong, the person instead of empty the case and start over puts the case back in the press at the wrong station. And does not look at the powder charges in the case.
What press is easier to go out of adjustment? LNL.
What press has better overall workmanship? Dillon
What press is easier to set up? Dillon
What press has the better instruction manual? Dillon
What press seems like it has the most trouble? LNL

Boxerglocker
07-27-2011, 19:50
It only takes me 3 or 4 throw to start throwing constant charges. Not 10 or 15. If you only want one powder measure you can also get extra powder bars or you can get a non-factory adjustable powder bar that a lot of people like. If your powder bar leaks you call Dillon and they well send you a thicker powder bar spacer. You do not need to take off or loosen any screw to empty the powder measure. You just pull off the fail safe rod, pull two pins, remove the tool head and empty the powder measure. Simple.


:goodpost: I have the exact same experience with my XL650 and the SDB's I have owned.... 2-3 throws and it's back on from settling.
I'm at a lost that anyone could say that the LNL rotor powder measure is anymore accurate or reliable than the Dillon.... they both work on the exact same displacement/weight principle. Granted the Horandy vernier out of the box may be easier to regain charge weights when changing powders but adding a UNIQUETEK micrometer to a Dillon makes it the same.

glock20c10mm
07-28-2011, 00:19
Can you double charge on the LNL yes.
Is it possible for the LNL to double charge outside of human error?

What press is easier to go out of adjustment? LNL.
What would work itself out of adjustment?

WiskyT
07-28-2011, 05:04
:goodpost: I have the exact same experience with my XL650 and the SDB's I have owned.... 2-3 throws and it's back on from settling.
I'm at a lost that anyone could say that the LNL rotor powder measure is anymore accurate or reliable than the Dillon.... they both work on the exact same displacement/weight principle. Granted the Horandy vernier out of the box may be easier to regain charge weights when changing powders but adding a UNIQUETEK micrometer to a Dillon makes it the same.

I don't even check the first 10 throws on any of my measures. I set the measure up, put a plastic medicine cup under the measure (Nyquil etc.) and operate the arm ten times or so. Then I empty the cup, drop a charge in it, and check it's weight. It's not like anyone cycles the whole press 10 times, ends up with 10 defective loads, until they get a good one.

Bottom line is this, IMO: If money is tight, and you are willing to deal with a little less convenience, get a Lee. If you have the money, get a Dillon. But to spend almost as much as a Dillon to end up with a lesser machine, makes no sense to me. The Lee is 1/7 the price of a 650, so don't anyone look down their nose at that, but if you're going to spend a grand anyway when it's all said and done, get a Dillon.

Colorado4Wheel
07-28-2011, 06:27
Is it possible for the LNL to double charge outside of human error?


What would work itself out of adjustment?

It's impossible for ANY of the good/common progressives to double charge out side of human error. The Dillon has a mechanism to prevent the most common form of human error and double charges.

As far as things working themselves out of adjustment. That is unlikely with either press. But the Hornady has a lock nut that needs initial adjustment to avoid it loosing adjustment and the Dillon does not have one (or need it) due to it's design. I tested both measures with my pistol powders and neither was better then the other. My Hornady developed rust in the tube that caused powder variation. The Dillon didn't do that because it's stainless on that part.

shotgunred
07-28-2011, 06:29
noylj,

Thanks for a comprehensive review. BTW, don't know if you are the slow casual loader, or if you prefer to crank out what you can as reasonably fast as you can. My question is; Between the LNL and XL 650, do you notice that one of the two makes it easier to load more rounds per time frame over the other?

Also, if you use a case feeder in conjunction with the LNL press, how often does it fail to feed a case properly into the shell plate?

You can defiantly crank out ammo much faster with the 650. I am not saying the LNL is up to most people's needs, but it it is slower. The 650 will let you crank out 900 plus rounds an hour until your arm falls off. The important thing with a case feeder is to make sure you do not have any of the wrong size brass in it. Removing that wrong brass will really slow you down.

Tpro
07-28-2011, 13:37
noylj,

Thanks for a comprehensive review. BTW, don't know if you are the slow casual loader, or if you prefer to crank out what you can as reasonably fast as you can. My question is; Between the LNL and XL 650, do you notice that one of the two makes it easier to load more rounds per time frame over the other?

Also, if you use a case feeder in conjunction with the LNL press, how often does it fail to feed a case properly into the shell plate?


I love the fact that guys talk about how fast they reload. What a dumb arguement. There isn't 50 rd/hr difference between progressives unless you start to have problems.

A 4 station progressive has the POTENTIAL to reload as fast a 5 station because it has 1 less handle pull per round completed.

If you make 1 round every 10 seconds (I don't know that once you get going you could do it that slow) that is 6 rds/minute, or 360 rds/hr. If you double that (1 rd in 5 seconds) that is 12 rds/minute or 720 rds/hr. Obviously you need to fill primers etc. but a round every 5 seconds is not killing yourself and the LnL AP will do it easily (mine does...your experience may differ).

So to do 900 rds/hr you would need to produce 15 rds/minute.

Math makes reloading suck.

Don't kill yourself with information. Go with your gut. 99% of the time you will be correct. The LnL AP will go as fast as anything else out there. The directs are fine if you have a 9th grade reading level (I know becuase I can use them and I know what my education level is according to some here) and I was making rounds in about 2 hours, including mouting the press.

Rotsa ruck to ya!

Boxerglocker
07-28-2011, 14:18
I love the fact that guys talk about how fast they reload. What a dumb arguement. There isn't 50 rd/hr difference between progressives unless you start to have problems.

I tend to argue this particular point, there aren't many guys out there that have gotten thier LNL's to consistently load 800 rounds an hour. The XL650 will do it stock out of the box with ANY caliber even some rifle.



A 4 station progressive has the POTENTIAL to reload as fast a 5 station because it has 1 less handle pull per round completed.


Yeah, for the first and last round only :upeyes:

Colorado4Wheel
07-28-2011, 17:24
I love the fact that guys talk about how fast they reload. What a dumb arguement. There isn't 50 rd/hr difference between progressives unless you start to have problems.

A 4 station progressive has the POTENTIAL to reload as fast a 5 station because it has 1 less handle pull per round completed.


Two wrong don't make a right.

First, EVEN when the LnL runs fine it was not nearly as fast as my 650. It's the way the press index's. Bullet tips really easy on the LnL because the ram is always indexing as the bullet is rising into the die. So you have to seat the bullet harder and more precisely, or pull the handle slower, or seat the bullet right after the index (what I did). Seating the bullet half way up the stroke of the handle is harder and slower the at the bottom of the stroke like on the 650. All those options are slower then the 650 that you can seat the bullet with the ram at the bottom of the stroke and it doesn't index as the ram is rising into the die. You also have to push much harder on the LnL to seat a primer then on a 650. Even Hornady admits that point about the LnL. Within days of getting a 650 I was able to load 100 rds in 5 mins on my new 650. SIMPLE. NEVER EVER was able to go that fast on the LnL. Even if the Gods where shining on my and the cases went in perfect for 100 rds in a row.

Second. It doesn't matter if it a 4/5/8 station progressive press. It's still one pull of the handle for every completed round. Only difference is you need to pull 4/5/8 times to fill the shell plate before you get your first completed round.

fredj338
07-28-2011, 17:46
Is it true that you can add a powder sensor (for powder loaded in the case) to the LNL, but this can't be done on a 550? I've always been concerned about too much or too little powder.

Sure it can, you just have to seat & crimp in stn 4.:dunno:

fredj338
07-28-2011, 17:50
May or may not matter :dunno:, but I'm asking the questions below in direct relation to the LNL AP and XL 650, as I'm not considering a 550B or 1050.

How about thoughts on which charging system inherently throws a more accurate charge? Equal? So close it's hard to tell the difference? Noticeable amount?

Does either brand tend to have a cleaner/more-efficient (over the course of loading ~750 rounds) powder charge system than the other?

Do both brands make changing to a different powder any easier or more of a PITA than the other?

Based on what you are asking, the 650 is a better press, flat out. Best priming system of any progressive, good relaible powder measure, great case feeder, again far better than the LNL. I own the 550B, 650 & have loaded quite a bit on a couple of LNL. Spend the extra $100 & get the 650, you won't regret the investment.

pm666
07-28-2011, 19:31
Based on what you are asking, the 650 is a better press, flat out. Best priming system of any progressive, good relaible powder measure, great case feeder, again far better than the LNL. I own the 550B, 650 & have loaded quite a bit on a couple of LNL. Spend the extra $100 & get the 650, you won't regret the investment.

There is only a $100 difference between the 550B and the 650?

Colorado4Wheel
07-28-2011, 19:34
He is talking about the LNL+Casefeeder vs the 650+Casefeeder price.

Colorado4Wheel
07-28-2011, 19:39
The Dillon powder measure, however, has a clamp held by two bolts. If you loosen the two bolts and pull the clamg out, you can lift the powder measure off the die to empty it.
Remember, the Dillon powder measure is actually just a large Lee Pro Auto-Disk with a charge bar that actually works and a large hopper.
The Hornady is the more precise and accurate design that includes a more complicated set-up for the case-actuated powder-through expander, while the Dillon is a lot easier to set up but nor a fine a piece of equipment.
I prefer to have both, depending on what I am doing, and a Lee Pro Auto-Disk is always near-by.

To empty the Dillon you just remove the toolhead and pour the powder into the can. Pretty darn easy.

All powder measures are basically the same. Dillon has a sliding square cavity and the Hornady has a rotating round cavity. A good powder will work the same in both and a bad metering powder won't meter good in the Hornady either. There might be some small differences on some specific Rifle powders but the Hornady isn't going to turn a bad metering powder into a good metering powder.

kshutt
07-28-2011, 20:56
Dillon 550B.
2 years....

~40,000 rounds (mostly 9mm, 2000 were .45ACP)

Stinkin' showoff. :supergrin: Oh yeah, Dillon 550B since the early 90's, and thousands of rounds since. Actually started with a Hornady Pro-Jector, and nearly gave reloading up over it. Never could get it to seat primers consistently, even after sending it back to the factory. I thought it was me until I sold that piece of crap and bought the Dillon!!

noylj
07-29-2011, 00:51
I am a somewhat slow reloader. I can crank out 100 rounds in a couple of minutes or spend most of the day loading up 100 rounds. I am not a competitive shooter, so I was never forced to drink the blue kool-aid. My opinion are, as noted, base on my personal experience and not what any one else has ever told me.
Note that currently I am using two RL 1050s, one Super 1050, and a Forster Co-Ax, so I am not anti-Dillon. I am however, pro-Horandy after using one for about 30 years and teaching my son on what was my L-N-L AP.
The 650 I used did not have a case feeder. I couldn't comfortably reach around with my right hand to drop a case into the mechanical feeder on the press, so I used the case feeder tube my friend had (I believe it came with the press) and loaded about 25 cases into the tube and loaded until it got down to just 3 or so and then got up and loaded the tube again.
He also bought a case feeder almost immediately after the two of us used the press. Last I saw, he had two 650s on his bench. He bought the Dillon cause the "pro" at his club recommended it and just announced to me one day that he had bought it and wanted me to come look.
As I said, I find the ergonomics of the Hornady to be far superior FOR ME in that all operations are done with my left hand, sitting down, with my right hand on the handle.
I have used various Hornady APs since the first one (until the L-N-L, I had paid a small conversion charge and got a new press back each time) came out and I have NEVER had one go out of timing. I did have one crack a pawl (my fault on my Pro 7--I think was the model before the L-N-L), so I always kept an extra on hand. I also prefer the spring case holder rather than the pins, but that is probably more due to years of use rather than the superiority of one over the other (I did manage some how to lose a set of pins--stupid me, wish I knew how and where they walked off--never lost the spring on my Hornadies).
Also, as I said, if you are going to get a case feeder, then get the Dillon 650--it was designed for one and is a pain without it.
I still think that $556.95 for the press, $76.95 per caliber conversion kit, $26.95 for a toolhead, and $217.95 for a case feeder is a lot of money. You can go through the conversion parts and use the shellplate and pins and the the case feeder parts with more than one caliber, but it is easier, if you can afford it, to keep everything for a given cartridge together.
With the L-N-L ($414.90, $30/shellplate, and $38.99 for 10 bushings) , caliber conversion consists of just the shellplate and at most 5 bushings ($30 if you need to buy another shellplate and $20 for 5 bushings=$50 for a complete caliber conversion kit).
The time it takes to remove and reinstall 5 dies with bushings (about 1/6th of a turn on and off) is not much longer than pulling a toolhead. Plus, to get the most out of your toolheads, you will want to have a powder measure with each toolhead (like I have for my 1050s).
My Hornady measure (or, my son's now) has a very tight fit of the rotor and it cleanly cuts off long extruded powder easily. Of the five Dillon measures I currently have: two leak with very fine powder, one broke and Dillon replaced it for free (as I took in to the store in Scottsdale), and none meter long extruded powder very well. Neither does the Lee Pro Auto-Disk that it is designed from (and pays royalties--or whatever--on).
I prefer the Dillon measurefor its ease (you do need cartridge-specific "powder funnels" rather than the caliber-specific PTXs from Hornady), but I would still stack my Hornady measure against the Dillon in terms of repeatability with difficult to meter powders..
Rust? Currently dirty work is done in the garage and reloading is done indoors. However, I did reload in the garage for about 25 years and I never had any rust on my Hornady AP or the powder measure--this is due to a relatively dry environment (CA and AZ) and not due to my own super-care. Store the measure in a drawer as with the dies and some vapor paper.
You pays your money...

noylj
07-29-2011, 01:05
PS: the only way the 650 is faster than the Hornady is with a case feeder on one and not on the other. I haven't used a case feeder on the Hornady and, as I said, if you need one then the Dillon was designed for it. If you stacked them both up without a case feeder, the L-N-L would far surpass the 650.
I admit that I have only about 30 years of experience using a Hornady, it is just strange that your descriptions are so different from my experience. I load about 50k rounds a year and have been for most of those 30+ years. The only parts broken were: two crimped-up case-retaining springs and one pawl. I do not have any memory of replacing any parts on my previous models until my Pro-7 just plain wore out about two years ago and I sort of fell into two RL 1050s.
The only priming problems I had with any of the Hornadies was the old system had to be carefully aligned (and I had to re-align it once) and the L-N-L would not feed the very last primer in the tube. Solved that with a Dillon rod. I understand Hornady now includes such a rod with the press.
I have more problems on a bi-weekly basis on my 1050s than I ever had with any of my Hornady models.
The first rule for progressives is MOUNT the thing as rigidly as possible.
The second is keep it clean.
The priming system on the L-N-L is VERY similar to the one on the 1050. I really don't remember the priming system on the 650.

El_Ron1
07-29-2011, 02:49
Nowhere near as much fun as the old BigSlick days Dillon vs. Lee threads, but an epic pissin' contest nonetheless. :beer:

Colorado4Wheel
07-29-2011, 07:05
Also, as I said, if you are going to get a case feeder, then get the Dillon 650--it was designed for one and is a pain without it.
I still think that $556.95 for the press, $76.95 per caliber conversion kit, $26.95 for a toolhead, and $217.95 for a case feeder is a lot of money. You can go through the conversion parts and use the shellplate and pins and the the case feeder parts with more than one caliber, but it is easier, if you can afford it, to keep everything for a given cartridge together.
With the L-N-L ($414.90, $30/shellplate, and $38.99 for 10 bushings) , caliber conversion consists of just the shellplate and at most 5 bushings ($30 if you need to buy another shellplate and $20 for 5 bushings=$50 for a complete caliber conversion kit).

If I had kept the LnL I would have bought a Powder Die for each caliber. I think they cost about $20 bucks. I hated adjusting the powder measure every time I used a new caliber. Especially when i was using a PTX.

I think nearly everyone in this thread recommending the 650 is assuming it has a casefeeder. I would not use the 650 with out the casefeeder for long.

The 650 and LnL are both expensive when you add the casefeeder and caliber changes. Originally, I thought the LnL was super cheap but after adjusting that powder measure PTX setup I was going to start buying more parts for the caliber conversions. Basically increasing the cost of every conversion. Still a little cheaper then the 650 but eroding the cost advantage most people talk about. If you use a flare die then the LnL is cheaper for sure. If you use a PTX die then it's a PITA to adjust each conversion (just me opinion) unless you get the powder die from hornady to make setup easier. Jack's method for this is to save money and just buy the lower part of the die and not the linkage. Then swap the linkage as you don't adjust that mechanism (just the die). You do have the PTX link thingy but I guess you could just leave that set to one spot and adjust the die.

glock20c10mm
07-29-2011, 18:40
Thanks again for all your input! After numerous threads, lots of YouTube video, and other online research, it looks like I'll be going with a LNL AP with a bullet feeder and case feeder all from Hornady. Of course the purchase won't happen till ~8 months from now, assuming Obama lets me keep the tax return moneys I'll have coming to me.

Feel free to add anything else that comes to mind, and to those of you that currently load; Don't double charge or blow your primer stacks!:supergrin:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Reloading%20Stuff/HORNADYLNLAP.jpg

fredj338
07-29-2011, 20:54
With the L-N-L ($414.90, $30/shellplate, and $38.99 for 10 bushings) , caliber conversion consists of just the shellplate and at most 5 bushings ($30 if you need to buy another shellplate and $20 for 5 bushings=$50 for a complete caliber conversion kit).
Like Obamanomics, you have neglected to add the cost of a case feeder to the LNL to make it comperable in cost to a 650. I don't hink withwe machine is perfect, bot have flaws. I like the tool head, nothing to break or wear out, not so w/ the bushings. I like the LNL spring retention instead of the pins, one less thing to lose. The 650 priming system is vastly superior, as is the case feeder. So spend it really comes down to the $100 diff.
I have more problems on a bi-weekly basis on my 1050s than I ever had with any of my Hornady models.
As it should be, no only is it more complicated, it is also almost twice as fast. My peersonnal exp w/ a LNL, not quite as fast as the 650 if both are running case feeders. IMO, the 650 shades it a bit, but not much.
I'll be going with a LNL AP with a bullet feeder and case feeder all from Hornady.
Personnaly, I would wait on the bulelt feeder. Get the press up & running, see how you like it, then yo ucan always add the bullet feeder. It brings it's own set of issues to the party, but if yo uonly shoot plated or jacketed, it can be a real time saver.

Hoser
07-29-2011, 22:12
I have more problems on a bi-weekly basis on my 1050s than I ever had with any of my Hornady models.

I must be doing something wrong. All 3 of mine run fine. Mine are Supers and not RLs.

Every 5-10,000 rounds or so I clean the primer slide and check things out.

glock20c10mm
07-29-2011, 23:23
Personnaly, I would wait on the bulelt feeder. Get the press up & running, see how you like it, then yo ucan always add the bullet feeder. It brings it's own set of issues to the party, but if yo uonly shoot plated or jacketed, it can be a real time saver.
At least for some time, the 10mm is all I intend to load as it's the only round I shoot (22 LR doesn't count here :supergrin:). Maybe any or all of, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 9x25 Dillon, in the future, simply because of conversion barrels for the G29. Still probably just 10mm for quite a while in the beginning though. And yes, plated/jacketed bullets religiously.

kcbrown
07-29-2011, 23:45
At least for some time, the 10mm is all I intend to load as it's the only round I shoot (22 LR doesn't count here :supergrin:). Maybe any or all of, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 9x25 Dillon, in the future, simply because of conversion barrels for the G29. Still probably just 10mm for quite a while in the beginning though. And yes, plated/jacketed bullets religiously.

You're not going to reload .22 LR???


I bet Jack does. :faint:

Colorado4Wheel
07-30-2011, 07:35
Looks like he is going to give Freak a run for his money making 10mm.

Hoser
07-30-2011, 14:16
A 4 station progressive has the POTENTIAL to reload as fast a 5 station because it has 1 less handle pull per round completed.

You do realize that the above comment makes no sense at all...

ursoboostd
07-30-2011, 18:25
You do realize that the above comment makes no sense at all...

I laughed pretty hard at that statement also.


So does this mean we have 8 months of these threads to look forward to? :wow:

glock20c10mm
07-30-2011, 18:50
Looks like he is going to give Freak a run for his money making 10mm.
Right now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I end up with a LNL that actually works properly out of the box.:shocked: I'm betting the case feeder will probably work "fine", even if I do have to wear ear protection while running it.:supergrin: With the bullet feeder, from all the info I've come across, seems like the main issue with it is running bullets through it that will run though it. Hopefully is will like .400" jacketed in various weights.

glock20c10mm
07-30-2011, 18:54
So does this mean we have 8 months of these threads to look forward to? :wow:
I don't think so. Seems like most everything has been covered that can be, through a few different threads already. I know I can't think of another question to ask. I certainly do appreciate everyone's input, and thanks again to all who participated!:wavey:

noylj
07-31-2011, 00:52
L-N-L: As above, it is my choice, but...
There are a lot of people who cannot seem to read the manual and learn how to set-up the powder measure with the PTX. If you are loading jacketed, read the manual. If you load lead, read the manual and order a PTX made for the larger lead bullets. In fact, I spent about 1.5 hours trying to set-up the powder measure for the .380 Auto and gave up. I told my son that next I came down we would call Hornady and have them walk us through. I e-mailed Hornady, and that was their recommendation. Personally, that little case just seems too small to fully activate the measure, but Hornady said that it would work. 9mm Luger was never a problem, and it is only 2mm longer.
For ease of use get the Dillon powder measure and the cartridge specific "powder funnel." This measure, in my experience (I only have 6) is not quite as repeatable as the Hornady and does not like long grain extruded powder at all and some of them leak with very fine powder, but it is very easy to set up and is as good as any with almost any powder you are likely to be loading.
The Hornady, though, also only costs about $11 or so for the powder charge adjust assembly and I bought several and labeled them with the cartridge, powder, and charge weight. It takes about 2 seconds to pull one and insert another.
The Dillon is a pain to adjust charge weight (very little movement of the adjusting bolt makes a larger than expected change in charge weight and I find that it takes more throws to get "a consistent metering charge. However, it is about as easy to set-up as the Lee Pro Auto-Disk. If you find the Lee PAD easy, get the Dillon measure. You can buy charge bars ($25-30?) for each charge you want to "save", just like I did with the Hornady--though they are not very quick to install.
If you use a bullet feeder (that only places a bullet on the charged case), you lose station 3 where your RCBS Lock-Out die should be installed. How I wished at times for a 6-station press.
I never had any problem with placing a bullet on the case until about a year ago, so had never really considered either a case feeder or bullet feeder (both seemed way too expensive for a task that wasn't that much trouble). Maybe it is diabetes related, but, over the last year, when I try to place a bullet on the case, my left hand has developed a shake. Currently, I am loading .38 super and have the Lee Bullet Feeder (without the bullet tube or the automatic lever) installed on a Lee seating die. I operate the slide by hand and it places the bullet right inline with the case for easy seating. I simply have about 5 bullets in the bullet feed "die" and drop in a new after each cycle. This does not speed up anything, and for most would slow them down, but for me it makes things much easier. I had considered buying a Hornady bullet feed die, but the idea of losing my Lock-Out die does not do anything for my piece of mind and I like the way the Lee Feeder self-aligns the bullet.
Again, remember I said if you want a case feed to get the Dillon. The Dillon has been using a case feed for decades and you would be a "pioneer" on the L-N-L. I still see no need for a case feeder on the L-N-L, but they are practically required to enjoy a Dillon.
I believe you said you watched YouTube videos. Good. Also, watch the Hornady videos on their site and download the manuals for the presses and options you want from Hornday and Dillon so you are more familiar with what is what.
It is a lot of money you have to happy with your purchase.

Colorado4Wheel
07-31-2011, 17:12
Of course the purchase won't happen till ~8 months from now,

Life has been created and started crying faster then you get this press.

It probably hurt less as well.

n2extrm
07-31-2011, 17:23
I wish you luck with your purchase. Some how I think no matter what happens we will see a glowing review from you about how wonderful the press is. Odd how very few people ever come back and say "boy did I make a mistake". It will be interesting to see how it goes. I do believe that some people will be more willing to suffer through some small issues and others won't tolerate a hiccup.

I am not picking on you just an observation and I truly wish you good luck with the press.

Hoser
07-31-2011, 18:28
"boy did I make a mistake"

I bought an RCBS Ammomaster Progressive in 1993 or 1994. Didnt work well at all. So crappy in fact I almost tossed it in the trash. But I kept it and converted it to load 50 BMG ammo. For that, it is fine.

I bought a Hornady Apex shotshell reloader in the mid 90s. Didnt last long. Absolute junk.

My other mistake (kinda) in presses was the Dillon SL-900 shotshell reloader. Works perfect in 12 gauge. Marginal in 28 gauge and not avail in 16 or 410. Sold it and bought a Spolar hydro.

After those mistakes I realized if you save your $$$, buy a good press, you only have to cry once.

Uncle Don
07-31-2011, 20:12
Nowhere near as much fun as the old BigSlick days Dillon vs. Lee threads, but an epic pissin' contest nonetheless. :beer:


Yep - those were the days. Remember the Dillon factory tour bit and the Homer Simpson Lee guy threating to bust a cap in your . . . ? Definately takes me back.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 13:18
I wish you luck with your purchase. Some how I think no matter what happens we will see a glowing review from you about how wonderful the press is. Odd how very few people ever come back and say "boy did I make a mistake". It will be interesting to see how it goes. I do believe that some people will be more willing to suffer through some small issues and others won't tolerate a hiccup.

I am not picking on you just an observation and I truly wish you good luck with the press.
Thanks. As for those that can't fess up without sugar coating something being completely opposite the truth, that ain't me! My fault or not, if the press I buy doesn't end up working as it should, you guys will get all the juicy details. Everything from what had to be tweaked to work, all the way to; Hey, I'm on the 3rd press from Hornady and it still don't work worth a darn... I think the difficult scenario, if I get one that operates 100%, will be getting some of you guys to believe it.

On that note I also believe the LNL presses probably work very well for the majority of buyers that have purchased them. I have no idea, but anyone wanna take a stab at how many LNLs Hornady has peddled in the last 2 years or so? And with that answer, how many bad reviews of LNLs have we seen in total. See where I'm going with this. Maybe some of the red owners do sugar coat the truth sometimes. But if you think that ain't the same case with a handful of blue owners, then I want some of what you're smoking!

To suggest a blue model is 100% foolproof is foolish in itself. Clearly parts do break/wear-out on them, user error or not. Same thing on a red model. By the same token it does seem a blue model may be the better choice overall for those for those that can consider themselves more/less slobs and wouldn't know "maintenance" (including basic cleanup) if it slapped them in the face. That's a group of folks that will mess up the unbreakable and never claim to understand why. Not to mention the group of folks out there that insist a user-guide/set-up manual is only needed for basic direction. These are also plenty commonly the same folks throwing out negative comments toward anything that just won't work just right for them. Not making all out excuses for truly poor products, just saying there is truth in it.

Obviously I can only go by what I've seen and heard at this time, but after paying close attention to how blue and red presses operate in general, along with how and what they have available for adjustment, along with what options are available, for me, I feel the red press is what will make me happiest. This of course is pure opinion, just as it is with all the rest of you.

At the end of the day, some of us will buy red, and others blue (heck, some will even choose green or the other red). If you ask me, changing out a whole tool head for cartridge changeovers is a joke. But it's just my opinion, others have there own opinion and couldn't disagree with me more. I don't hold it against them, it just is. They aren't me and I'm not them. It's a free country, who cares (I know some do, but that's their mental issue).

Same with the Strong Mount Dillon offers. I see zero benefit with it to myself. Just my opinion. Others will disagree and tell me why. Both machines (assuming they both operate as advertised) hold merit the other can't match. And even that will be argued, as even then the opinions vary. From all I've seen and heard so far, blue or red, I'm beginning to think the most important starting out point with either is a rock solid mount. Nothing like getting right down to the basics, but even the importance of mounting the press solidly to a 100% stable platform doesn't seem to be register with everyone.

But, blah blah blah, you think this, and I think that.............yeah, I too am hoping the best for me with a LNL, as most of us realize there are no guarantees. What I can promise you guys is an honest no-beating-around-the-bush straight forward review at some point down the road reguarding my experience with a Hornady LNL AP with Case Feeder and Bullet Feeder. Of course that is, if I live long enough! You never know.:supergrin:

Lastly, n2extrm, please know I'm sincerely also not picking on you, and I hope for the best with a LNL for me too.:wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 15:34
To suggest a blue model is 100% foolproof is foolish in itself. Clearly parts do break/wear-out on them, user error or not. Same thing on a red model. By the same token it does seem a blue model may be the better choice overall for those for those that can consider themselves more/less slobs and wouldn't know "maintenance" (including basic cleanup) if it slapped them in the face. That's a group of folks that will mess up the unbreakable and never claim to understand why. Not to mention the group of folks out there that insist a user-guide/set-up manual is only needed for basic direction. These are also plenty commonly the same folks throwing out negative comments toward anything that just won't work just right for them. Not making all out excuses for truly poor products, just saying there is truth in it.


That couldn't be more wrong. No one is saying Blue is perfect. People who have problems with red are not having "setup problems". It's the machine. It's not about maintenance. It's simply that Hornady has a issue on some machines and the design is just not as foolproof in some areas (not all). You make assumptions that just are not there.

Good luck with you LnL. Seriously. I wish you the best. I wouldn't wish my struggles with that press on anyone I like even a small amount.

Boxerglocker
08-01-2011, 16:38
That couldn't be more wrong. No one is saying Blue is perfect. People who have problems with red are not having "setup problems". It's the machine. It's not about maintenance. It's simply that Hornady has a issue on some machines and the design is just not as foolproof in some areas (not all). You make assumptions that just are not there.

Good luck with you LnL. Seriously. I wish you the best. I wouldn't wish my struggles with that press on anyone I like even a small amount.

I :agree: with C4W to say:

To suggest a blue model is 100% foolproof is foolish in itself. Clearly parts do break/wear-out on them, user error or not.
HUGE difference between not being able to get a press set-up to run right at all and setting it up having it work then a part breaking, wearing a part out is just that they wear out... However to have a design issue in what appears to be a rather significant number of presses that the manufacturer doesn't even really address, that's a whole other ball game.
I guess we'll have another testament to it in 6.7.8 months..... when the OP get his LNL and we see if it doesn't have the various issues already brought forward.

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 17:00
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=122147&page=2

Another group of unhappy LnL users on this thread. Same pattern on every thread. A bunch of happy LnL owners act stunned when I say the press has a problem for some people. They act as if "my press works fine, so Steve must be nuts and causing his own problems" Then others start saying "wait, that happens to me as well".

One guy even said his only has problems with LP and not small pistol. Mine was fine with LP and horrible with SP. It's a small % but there is a problem.

jdavionic
08-01-2011, 17:11
Which progressive press(es) do you own?

How old is it or are they?

How many rounds have you loaded with it/them? (educated guesses are fine)

I've got a couple of presses, but my progressive is a Lee Pro 1000. I bought it used, so I really can't say how old it might be.

In that press, I'd guess over 30k rounds...

fredj338
08-01-2011, 17:12
To suggest a blue model is 100% foolproof is foolish in itself. Clearly parts do break/wear-out on them, user error or not. Same thing on a red model. By the same token it does seem a blue model may be the better choice overall for those for those that can consider themselves more/less slobs and wouldn't know "maintenance" (including basic cleanup) if it slapped them in the face.
Not sure I follow that thought prcess. Any progressive will need tending to; cleaning, lubing, tightening things, that doesn't make blue any better or easier to use than red. No, some design or QC issues can not be overcome by diligent tending to your press. If it has a flaw it has a flaw, accept it, fix it, live with it or get rid of it. Kind of like your friends. Some are better than others, some are worth keeping & dealing with the flaws.
BTW, you will find the LNL case feeder & bullet feeder noisy to run very noisy. I can barely hear my Dillon case feeder running, partly because it has a two speed motor & you can run it on low so it barely turns feeding wheel. The bullet feeders are just loud. My friend put dense foam wrap on both his & a foam covered lid. It does cut the noise by about 50%.

Boxerglocker
08-01-2011, 17:12
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=122147&page=2

Another group of unhappy LnL users on this thread. Same pattern on every thread. A bunch of happy LnL owners act stunned when I say the press has a problem for some people. They act as if "my press works fine, so Steve must be nuts and causing his own problems" Then others start saying "wait, that happens to me as well".

One guy even said his only has problems with LP and not small pistol. Mine was fine with LP and horrible with SP. It's a small % but there is a problem.


Yeah, come across a few guys in various forums not happy with the priming system and the high primers.... here is another one that guy actually is asking for hand primer suggestions cause as he stated he talked to Horandy till he was "blue in the face" and they wouldn't resolve the issue. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81092

fredj338
08-01-2011, 17:16
Yeah, come across a few guys in various forums not happy with the priming system and the high primers.... here is another one that guy actually is asking for hand primer suggestions cause as he stated he talked to Horandy till he was "blue in the face" and they wouldn't resolve the issue. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81092

I am not sure it can be resolved. My machinist buddy is looking into modifying the primer punch. He's done several things to the LNL & case feeder to get it the way HE wants it to run. It's a good machine, but for $100, I would just bite the bullet & get the 650 if you want a case feeder & add a bullet feeder.:dunno: BTW glock20, adding a bullet feeder will require you seat & crimp in stn #5 if you still want a pwoder check die.

unclebob
08-01-2011, 17:37
I am not sure it can be resolved. My machinist buddy is looking into modifying the primer punch. He's done several things to the LNL & case feeder to get it the way HE wants it to run. It's a good machine, but for $100, I would just bite the bullet & get the 650 if you want a case feeder & add a bullet feeder.:dunno: BTW glock20, adding a bullet feeder will require you seat & crimp in stn #5 if you still want a pwoder check die.

Not every one is a machinist or access to one that does not cost a arm and a leg. And its something that Hornady should be addressing. Not the buyers of the press.
Like the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 17:42
Yeah, come across a few guys in various forums not happy with the priming system and the high primers.... here is another one that guy actually is asking for hand primer suggestions cause as he stated he talked to Horandy till he was "blue in the face" and they wouldn't resolve the issue. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81092

It actually made me feel good to hear him say his experience was the same as mine. It's horrible to hear him have issues but it's nice to hear it's not just me. The more people who say these things the more I feel better about telling others "yes, they have a problem".

unclebob
08-01-2011, 17:56
It actually made me feel good to hear him say his experience was the same as mine. It's horrible to hear him have issues but it's nice to hear it's not just me. The more people who say these things the more I feel better about telling others "yes, they have a problem".

I do not have one. Would not buy one because I know they have a problem. Granted it is not everyone. But enough that do. I hope the OP Hornady will work for him. But Iím not going to hold my breath in deep anticipation.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 18:05
That couldn't be more wrong. No one is saying Blue is perfect. People who have problems with red are not having "setup problems". It's the machine. It's not about maintenance. It's simply that Hornady has a issue on some machines and the design is just not as foolproof in some areas (not all). You make assumptions that just are not there.
I agree, things that break, user error or not, is a separate issue from "setup problems". That they were in the same paragraph I posted didn't mean I was lumping them together as being one in the same, only that both are "issues" in one way or another.

Therefore I didn't make an assumption that wasn't there.

Where I said; "To suggest a blue model is 100% foolproof is foolish in itself.", I stand by it.

Foolproof = Incapable of going wrong or being misused.

That said, a Dillon press, or any other, of any model, is NOT foolproof.
Good luck with you LnL. Seriously. I wish you the best. I wouldn't wish my struggles with that press on anyone I like even a small amount.
Thank You.:)

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 18:23
Some things are closer to foolproof then other things. Nothing is foolproof.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 18:29
HUGE difference between not being able to get a press set-up to run right at all and setting it up having it work then a part breaking, wearing a part out is just that they wear out...
:agree:
However to have a design issue in what appears to be a rather significant number of presses that the manufacturer doesn't even really address, that's a whole other ball game.
Again; "On that note I also believe the LNL presses probably work very well for the majority of buyers that have purchased them. I have no idea, but anyone wanna take a stab at how many LNLs Hornady has peddled in the last 2 years or so? And with that answer, how many bad reviews of LNLs have we seen in total. See where I'm going with this."

In case you don't get my point, the point is, you don't know what percentage of LNL presses sold actually came defective from the factory. If we go by the sound of you and Steve, one might think it's up in the +75% range. It may be less than 1%. And even if it were a full 1% of all LNL presses sold, I agree it's too many, but it's not to say I don't have an excellent chance of getting one with the major issues others have run into.

Just do me a favor and don't come back suggesting I'm telling everyone that the unfixable major issues with LNL presses is 1% of LNL AP sales, as I'm not. It was strictly a hypothetical. Bottom line, neither you, Steve, or I, have a clue in terms of what percentage of LNL presses come defective from the factory. You and Steve round up a handful of examples and act as if LNL presses suck overall, while very strongly pushing the blue koolaid as if you have stock in Dillon.

I'm not saying you shouldn't speak your mind. Just that you guys act like you don't exaggerate when you do. Your's and Steve's opinions, are just that, opinions. Sure, you guys bring plain old facts to the table too, which is great! But don't kick back acting like either of you don't toss in exaggeration when it suits you, along with sometimes bringing in your own opinion as fact. Not to mention misrepresenting what I've said some of the time too.

I guess we'll have another testament to it in 6.7.8 months..... when the OP get his LNL and we see if it doesn't have the various issues already brought forward.
Well don't say it like you're sweating it or something.:faint:

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 19:09
LoL, You do realize that 51% is a majority. Hardly high praise if that is the standard.

Seriously, I don't think it's a large group with priming issues. I do think a small % think that 1% failure is fine so they don't report it as a problem. I never once said it's a high %. Ever. But it's not just a couple random people either.

I know it's a larger group with case feeder unreliability. I post on thread about the issue on another forum and I got nearly a dozen responses asking how I made the doohicky that helps solve the issue.

I still talk to a different guy every month about the priming issues.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:13
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=122147&page=2

Another group of unhappy LnL users on this thread. Same pattern on every thread. A bunch of happy LnL owners act stunned when I say the press has a problem for some people. They act as if "my press works fine, so Steve must be nuts and causing his own problems" Then others start saying "wait, that happens to me as well".

One guy even said his only has problems with LP and not small pistol. Mine was fine with LP and horrible with SP. It's a small % but there is a problem.
And what's wrong with a bunch of them acting stunned?!? If the vast majority of LNL owners don't have issues, is there some reason they shouldn't be in the least bit surprised?

You're always making it sound to me (my OPINION) that no other LNL owners or potential LNL owners believe there is an evil issue with some amount of LNL presses lurking around out there. Clearly there is, and I'm not seeing any LNL owners denying it. I'm sure at least one or two out there are, I simply haven't seen a trend in it.

And Steve, What's so wrong with people trying to help others, including you, troubleshoot what can sometimes be troubleshooted? Most of these folks that totally rub you the wrong way are just ATTEMPTING to help, futilely or not. Nothing more. Even if it does take them a moment to get that there's nothing to get in some cases with a LNL press that is just plain defunct doesn't mean they are out to either get you or totally piss you off. I'm not saying you have to loosen up, but it would be nice!:thumbsup:

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:14
I do not have one. Would not buy one because I know they have a problem. Granted it is not everyone. But enough that do. I hope the OP Hornady will work for him. But Iím not going to hold my breath in deep anticipation.
Thank You. Me too!:supergrin:

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:22
BTW glock20, adding a bullet feeder will require you seat & crimp in stn #5 if you still want a pwoder check die.
Can't I -

Station 1 - prime/size

Station 2 - powder charge/bell mouth

Station 3 - bullet feed

Station 4 - seat bullet

Station 5 - crimp

I know, still no powder cop die. But will the above work to separate seating and crimping?

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:24
Some things are closer to foolproof then other things. Nothing is foolproof.
I didn't mean anything beyond that.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:26
LoL, You do realize that 51% is a majority. Hardly high praise if that is the standard.

Seriously, I don't think it's a large group with priming issues. I do think a small % think that 1% failure is fine so they don't report it as a problem. I never once said it's a high %. Ever. But it's not just a couple random people either.

I know it's a larger group with case feeder unreliability. I post on thread about the issue on another forum and I got nearly a dozen responses asking how I made the doohicky that helps solve the issue.

I still talk to a different guy every month about the priming issues.
Yes. Why would you think I don't?

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 19:28
So how much do you shoot that 10mm?

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:32
So how much do you shoot that 10mm?
Well hopefully a whole lot more once I start rolling my own. Got the latest Graf & Sons catalog in the mail (first one I ever got) the other day. DANG, lots of goodies in there!!!:supergrin: Seemed like pretty good prices too.

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 19:33
Yes. Why would you think I don't?

If the Majority don't have problems (as you said before) then that leaves 49% who could still have problems and meet the standard of "the majority don't have problems". It's kinda like being in the top 75% of your class.

I am just fooling with you. Just made me laugh when you start talking about Majority being happy. Majority is not a high standard at all. I would go with "vast majority". It's unquantifiable so we can't argue about it. :rofl:

I really am just having some fun with this.

Boxerglocker
08-01-2011, 19:36
Just do me a favor and don't come back suggesting I'm telling everyone that the unfixable major issues with LNL presses is 1% of LNL AP sales, as I'm not. It was strictly a hypothetical. Bottom line, neither you, Steve, or I, have a clue in terms of what percentage of LNL presses come defective from the factory. You and Steve round up a handful of examples and act as if LNL presses suck overall, while very strongly pushing the blue koolaid as if you have stock in Dillon.

I'm not saying you shouldn't speak your mind. Just that you guys act like you don't exaggerate when you do. Your's and Steve's opinions, are just that, opinions. Sure, you guys bring plain old facts to the table too, which is great! But don't kick back acting like either of you don't toss in exaggeration when it suits you, along with sometimes bringing in your own opinion as fact. Not to mention misrepresenting what I've said some of the time too.


All I have further to say is this... I have looked long and hard at the LNL. I have read repeatedly about the problems Steve has had and many others have also had. Case feeder aside, though I absolutely have zero confidence in it's design..... I would still have thought of buying a LNL for the price point and the cost of caliber conversions. But then of course there is the priming issue.... as far as a large percentage is concerned... to me and many others I'm sure the definition of a large percentage in relation to the number of threads posted by various individuals stating the same issue.
Then when I personally called Horandy on two different occasions and was told they were no significant problems that there were aware of that makes me wonder. :upeyes:
You have the same abilities as I or anyone else does... PM/email anyone you like to find the same answers. I personally have no interests in you decision and zero stake in Dillon other than at least I know that when I pull the trigger on my next press. There is a much greater chance that it will work out of the box. It's not about drinking the blue koolaide... though admittedly I use that term as a punn myself. It's about analyzing the choices and making a informed decision. I personally am not one to just listen to it all and go against the grain and hope it will come out alright. That is like being a teenager in the backseat of you dads car for the first time and not having a condom... have fun... "pull out and pray" that nothing unexpected.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:39
If the Majority don't have problems (as you said before) then that leaves 49% who could still have problems and meet the standard of "the majority don't have problems". It's kinda like being in the top 75% of your class.

I am just fooling with you. Just made me laugh when you start talking about Majority being happy. Majority is not a high standard at all. I would go with "vast majority". It's unquantifiable so we can't argue about it. :rofl:

I really am just having some fun with this.
I wonder what Hornady would say if we asked.:shocked:

I have to admit I'm afraid I probably wouldn't be happy with their answer from the standpoint I'm quite sure we wouldn't get a real one.:faint:

I don't know if faith will get me anywhere I wanna be, but at least for now I'm keeping the faith on not getting a dud from Hornady. Time will tell how that ends up for me.:cool:

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 19:43
Well hopefully a whole lot more once I start rolling my own. Got the latest Graf & Sons catalog in the mail (first one I ever got) the other day. DANG, lots of goodies in there!!!:supergrin: Seemed like pretty good prices too.

So lets just pretend for a second you shoot 500 rds a month of of 10mm. That would be about $400 of Double tap. You wait 8 months at that rate and you just wasted about $200 a month. So the cost of waiting is $1600. Cost of waiting is HUGE. If your not planning on shooting way, way more then that you simple don't need a bullet feeder. In fact that last thing you want to do is wait even a single month to start reloading. Get the LnL now, skip the casefeeder and bullet feeder. Learn the process slowly, add the other stuff later. My guess once you use the LnL with out the feeder you will find even the casefeeder might not be needed.

glock20c10mm
08-01-2011, 19:44
All I have further to say is this... I have looked long and hard at the LNL. I have read repeatedly about the problems Steve has had and many others have also had. Case feeder aside, though I absolutely have zero confidence in it's design..... I would still have thought of buying a LNL for the price point and the cost of caliber conversions. But then of course there is the priming issue.... as far as a large percentage is concerned... to me and many others I'm sure the definition of a large percentage in relation to the number of threads posted by various individuals stating the same issue.
Then when I personally called Horandy on two different occasions and was told they were no significant problems that there were aware of that makes me wonder. :upeyes:
You have the same abilities as I or anyone else does... PM/email anyone you like to find the same answers. I personally have no interests in you decision and zero stake in Dillon other than at least I know that when I pull the trigger on my next press. There is a much greater chance that it will work out of the box. It's not about drinking the blue koolaide... though admittedly I use that term as a punn myself. It's about analyzing the choices and making a informed decision. I personally am not one to just listen to it all and go against the grain and hope it will come out alright. That is like being a teenager in the backseat of you dads car for the first time and not having a condom... have fun... "pull out and pray" that nothing unexpected.
I can respect that.:wavey:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Facepalms%20and%20Such/compromise5445.jpg:)

unclebob
08-01-2011, 19:51
Can't I -

Station 1 - prime/size

Station 2 - powder charge/bell mouth

Station 3 - bullet feed

Station 4 - seat bullet

Station 5 - crimp

I know, still no powder cop die. But will the above work to separate seating and crimping?

If you did your homework and research you should already know the answer to that question. And a lot more that you have asked about. The post on GT and others on the LNL are a very small percentage of the people that own the press. So even at that just the people that post on GT how many have had problems and how many have not. And of those are willing to put up with some of the pressís limitations that you might encounter. Like priming off of the press. I donít know if you are trying to convenience us or yourself that you are going to get a LNL and it is going to work great out of the box. You are only hearing what you want to hear. Remember we donít care what press you end up with. People are just trying to tell you what problems they and others have had with the LNL.

norton
08-01-2011, 19:59
I have had off and on again primer feed issues with my Dillon 550. Only on the large primer slide.
But the single stage and the turret presses I own also had primer issues. I don't even bother to use them.
Otherwise the 550 is a very good press.

The press almost no one talks about on GTR is the RCBS pro 2000. Wonder why? Its auto indexing seems to be about the same price as the Dillon 650.
The primer feed on the pro 2000 looks very simple. Intriguing.

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 20:02
He lives in AZ, SE Arizona. He could literally take the press to Dillon himself with a short drive if he ever had a issue with a Dillon.

Colorado4Wheel
08-01-2011, 20:05
I have had off and on again primer feed issues with my Dillon 550. Only on the large primer slide.
But the single stage and the turret presses I own also had primer issues. I don't even bother to use them.
Otherwise the 550 is a very good press.

The press almost no one talks about on GTR is the RCBS pro 2000. Wonder why? Its auto indexing seems to be about the same price as the Dillon 650.
The primer feed on the pro 2000 looks very simple. Intriguing.

It's also under the shell plate and prone to issues if it spills any powder. I know some people who owned one.

550's that have primer issues need some TLC with the slider. It's normally a easy fix. My 650 primer setup is a little better then my 550 setup. Not that the 550 was bad, just needed a little more TLC.

15GLOCKGUY
08-01-2011, 20:10
Which progressive press(es) do you own?

How old is it or are they?

How many rounds have you loaded with it/them? (educated guesses are fine) Dillon 550B. Five years old and about 15,000 rounds. I had to stop when I couldn't get PRIMERS a few years back like the rest of you.:whistling:

El_Ron1
08-01-2011, 22:43
I had to stop when I couldn't get PRIMERS like the rest of youNegative, ghostrider.

fredj338
08-01-2011, 23:19
Not every one is a machinist or access to one that does not cost a arm and a leg. And its something that Hornady should be addressing. Not the buyers of the press.
Like the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

I agree 100%. My friend has called & gone back & forth w/ the techs @ Hornady on several of the issues he has found & fixed. Whether they choose to incorporate the fixes or not, well that remains to be seen. I am sure the evolution of the Diloon 650 came from input on their SDB & 450 presses early on then Dillon designed a "better" machine. Hornady is no diff if they want to compete in the market of upper end reloading equip.:dunno:

fredj338
08-01-2011, 23:22
Can't I -

Station 1 - prime/size

Station 2 - powder charge/bell mouth

Station 3 - bullet feed

Station 4 - seat bullet

Station 5 - crimp

I know, still no powder cop die. But will the above work to separate seating and crimping?
Sure, my point only that if you want a bullet feeder, you have to give up the COP or seat & crimp in one step. Most that want an autoindexing/ 5 stn press want it for the extra place for the COP & reduce the chance of a double or squib.
As Steve noted, you can add a bullet feeder at any time. Waiting to buy the press for the cost of a bullet feeder is silly. The money you save reloading 10mm 500rd in 1m would buy a bullet feeder.

noylj
08-02-2011, 01:15
Those who have the Dillon strong mount seem to love them.
I assume they all load while standing up.
I can not stand for long, never have, but after age 60 with a bad back and neck, I simply can not stand for more than a minute or two.
I have always reloaded sitting down. Either on a stool with the press on my work bench or now, sitting in a chair with the press mounted on a table.
Once reason I liked the L-N-L is that station 4, the bullet seating station is right under your nose and, with the press installed on a table, it was very easy to inspect the charge in case prior to placing the bullet on it.
The use of a strong mount, to me, raises the press up to the point where you would need a light and mirror (or a light, video camera, and monitor) to inspect the charge.
The Dillon presses are not that easy to inspect the charge and I have seen lots of lights and mirrors to actually perform the job.
My 1050s are designed with the equivalent of a short strong mount and the cases are really just a little too high for inspection. When I had one press mounted on a lower table, I could just barely inpect the cases.
In this situation, you are "crazy" not be running an RCBS Lock-Out die.

noylj
08-02-2011, 01:56
The "problem" is that too many of the comments are so identical that it seems suspicious. I wonder if any Blue people are simply complaining about a press over an issues they have read about and trying to make it much worse than it is.You know, like "seminar callers" on talk radio?
I had a problem on my L-N-L with the primers not seating below flush. I tried putting a penny on the frame so the primer seater would be pushed up higher. This didn't do anything.
Then I noticed that the shellplate was loose. Tightened it up and problem solved. Put a little blue Loc-Tite on the nut and problem solved.
I have heard that Hornady has "longer" primer seating plugs for those that have a problem, so I can conclude that there is a problem. All I know is that the shellplate solved my problem.

jbrown13
08-02-2011, 06:33
I have heard that Hornady has "longer" primer seating plugs for those that have a problem, so I can conclude that there is a problem. All I know is that the shellplate solved my problem.

That may be the reason the Hornady LnL has issues, they don't seem to be able to hold the tolerances close enough to where they can supply common parts for all machines to work satisfactorily.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 06:49
The "problem" is that too many of the comments are so identical that it seems suspicious. I wonder if any Blue people are simply complaining about a press over an issues they have read about and trying to make it much worse than it is.You know, like "seminar callers" on talk radio?
I had a problem on my L-N-L with the primers not seating below flush. I tried putting a penny on the frame so the primer seater would be pushed up higher. This didn't do anything.
Then I noticed that the shellplate was loose. Tightened it up and problem solved. Put a little blue Loc-Tite on the nut and problem solved.
I have heard that Hornady has "longer" primer seating plugs for those that have a problem, so I can conclude that there is a problem. All I know is that the shellplate solved my problem.


That is a rumor unless it's brand spanking new. I asked for a longer one. They did not have it.

My problems with my LnL were not a rumor. Not due to a loose shellplate. NOT due to user error. I know you want to blame the user SOOOOO BADLY. But, my press had issues that Hornady couldn't fix by sending parts or by me sending the press back in. So basically. HORNADY couldn't fix it.

beancounter81
08-02-2011, 07:34
Well, one outcome of all this happy discussion is that somebody (me) finally got off his butt and ordered a press yesterday (and it is BLUE). Should be here by end of week.

unclebob
08-02-2011, 08:02
Once reason I liked the L-N-L is that station 4, the bullet seating station is right under your nose and, with the press installed on a table, it was very easy to inspect the charge in case prior to placing the bullet on it.
The use of a strong mount, to me, raises the press up to the point where you would need a light and mirror (or a light, video camera, and monitor) to inspect the charge.
The Dillon presses are not that easy to inspect the charge and I have seen lots of lights and mirrors to actually perform the job.
.
In this situation, you are "crazy" not be running an RCBS Lock-Out die.

On the Dillon 650 you look inside of the case at station 3 or 4 or both they are right in front of you. No different than the LNL.
People use the strong mount to raise the press where you do not have to rebuild the reloading bench. So that the press is at the right height and the rest of the bench is not so high that you can do nothing else on it. Or you can build a platform for the press. I have loaded many of years sitting. But you have a lot better control of what is going on standing. Yes I understand that some people need to sit because of physical limitations. But if you do not have limitations you are better off standing.
I have a light on my press because one I do not have a light right above my press. And my powder charge is so light that 3.5 grains of Tight Group is hard to see the charge on the bottom of the case.
As for the RCBS lockout die. Right now they have been having problems with them not working. The trouble with the RCBS is that it is only a mechanical device that is subject to failure. I like the Dillon one because it is has an audible sound if the charge is too low or too high. It also gives you a very good visual check for the powder charge.

El_Ron1
08-02-2011, 09:13
He lives in AZ, SE Arizona. He could literally take the press to Dillon himself with a short drive if he ever had a issue with a Dillon.

Yeah, if he owns an oil well. "short drive". :rofl:

unclebob
08-02-2011, 09:22
Yeah, if he owns an oil well. "short drive". :rofl:

Hell a month or two ago I drove 330 miles one way to have one of my skeet guns worked on. Spent more on gas than on the repair.

fredj338
08-02-2011, 09:33
That may be the reason the Hornady LnL has issues, they don't seem to be able to hold the tolerances close enough to where they can supply common parts for all machines to work satisfactorily.

My machinist freind took his apart & measured everything. He feels it is a tolerance stacking issue to some degree. In his opinion, its' "sloppy", he is a machinist though, & sloppy to them is something out of spec by more than 0.0005".:dunno: I think it's just growing pains. It's a good press, not perfect, none are, some add'l. isues that maybe Dillon had worked out years ago. I woudl be happy w/ one, but aftere running the 650, I know it's a slightly better press, if nothing but for the primimg system & case feeder.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 10:21
Yeah, if he owns an oil well. "short drive". :rofl:

200 miles to solve a problem vs struggling with someone over the phone trying to fix a problem. If Hornady was that close to me I would have dropped it off at some point as I was doing some other things in that area.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 10:25
My machinist freind took his apart & measured everything. He feels it is a tolerance stacking issue to some degree. In his opinion, its' "sloppy", he is a machinist though, & sloppy to them is something out of spec by more than 0.0005".:dunno: I think it's just growing pains. It's a good press, not perfect, none are, some add'l. isues that maybe Dillon had worked out years ago. I woudl be happy w/ one, but aftere running the 650, I know it's a slightly better press, if nothing but for the primimg system & case feeder.

Tolerances stack on any group of parts. Key is to have the part that is critical to the important processes able to work within those tolerances. The LnL punch setup is tiny. It has a very short stroke. AND if you try to increase the stroke too much the punch will be UP while the handle is in the up position (rest). There is a little bit of room for it to be longer (at least on my press). But so far Hornady hasn't made it any longer in stroke (stroke is the important part).

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 11:45
If you did your homework and research you should already know the answer to that question.
As I did, as you saw. Just making sure I wasn't missing something. Clearly you can see fredj338 has answered back to me assuring me I wasn't missing something.

I guess reloaders like yourself who believe they have learned all there is to know and can't understand how anyone who has never reloaded but has gone through materials showing/explaining the aspects may still have a question, especially directly to the commentary of a very experienced reloader posting directly to said person who has never reloaded in their life.

Come to think of it, I see experienced reloaders asking questions here all the time. Guess they should have simply "known" too, huh?

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 11:53
He lives in AZ, SE Arizona. He could literally take the press to Dillon himself with a short drive if he ever had a issue with a Dillon.
Over 500 miles and ~$70 just for gasoline, round trip. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................NO.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 12:03
I have had off and on again primer feed issues with my Dillon 550. Only on the large primer slide.
Was it the same issue all the time? What was the issue(s)?

fredj338
08-02-2011, 12:38
Was it the same issue all the time? What was the issue(s)?

The priming system on the 550B is it's weakest link. It slides & has a spring assist. It must be kept very clean & the depriming dumps grit right onto the slide area. If you blow or brush it out every 100rds, it will run well for awhile. Don't & it starts mmissing primers or flipping them. Dillon has changed the design of the sliding part many times trying to help. The slide is also soft alum & can wear. It takes very little wear to cause a misalignment, it is also easy to misalign when taking it apart for cleaning. Probably why the 650 has a completely diff setup that seems far more tolerable of grit. Why I also think it's slightly better than the LNL.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 13:03
The "problem" is that too many of the comments are so identical that it seems suspicious. I wonder if any Blue people are simply complaining about a press over an issues they have read about and trying to make it much worse than it is...

...I have heard that Hornady has "longer" primer seating plugs for those that have a problem, so I can conclude that there is a problem. All I know is that the shellplate solved my problem.
Yes, exactly what I was pointing out earlier. Nobody here has a clue as to how many LNL presses are affected with the true primer seating issue. Some have done there best to rationalize it in their own minds as can be seen in preceding posts. Yet still, they don't know. And yet still they attempt passing judgement on what they don't know. I see it that we simply have differing opinions.

Obviously to them, the way they rationalize it in their own mind from what they've seen and heard is, it is a huge enough issue to them personally that the idea of ever owning a LNL AP, or owning one again, is out of the question. Nothing wrong with that, as it's their own personal opinion that they will base there own personal choices on.

Then there's my opinion that the LNL AP is worth trying out from the standpoint I may get a good one just as many others have, as I would prefer what I consider merits of a LNL AP over a Dillon press, and base my personal choices on.

Nothing wrong with either side's opinion as long as it doesn't affect the other side.:cheers:

Boxerglocker
08-02-2011, 13:22
The "problem" is that too many of the comments are so identical that it seems suspicious. I wonder if any Blue people are simply complaining about a press over an issues they have read about and trying to make it much worse than it is.....

Yes, exactly what I was pointing out earlier. Nobody here has a clue as to how many LNL presses are affected with the true primer seating issue. Some have done there best to rationalize it in their own minds as can be seen in preceding posts. Yet still, they don't know. And yet still they attempt passing judgement on what they don't know. I see it that we simply have differing opinions.

Obviously to them, the way they rationalize it in their own mind from what they've seen and heard is, it is a huge enough issue to them personally that the idea of ever owning a LNL AP, or owning one again, is out of the question. Nothing wrong with that, as it's their own personal opinion that they will base there own personal choices on.

Then there's my opinion that the LNL AP is worth trying out from the standpoint I may get a good one just as many others have, as I would prefer what I consider merits of a LNL AP over a Dillon press, and base my personal choices on.

Nothing wrong with either side's opinion as long as it doesn't affect the other side.:cheers:

glock20c10mm I look forward to you getting your press and truly hope that it works out for you.... maybe in 6-8 months time the LNL's in production will have tighter tolerences and it will all be a thing in the past, who knows...

As far as the whole it's a conspiricy by Dillon guys to downplay the LNL, a simple google search with key words http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hornady+lnl+priming+problem will bring up numerous pages of hits from many different forums attesting that Steve's and others experiences are not isolated and with most of them Horandy was unable to provide adequate resolutions to the problems. So IMO the problem is real and as I have stated earlier my personal inquires to Horandy were pretty much repuked even after offering to email links to various threads to clarifiy what I was asking.

unclebob
08-02-2011, 14:14
I guess reloaders like yourself who believe they have learned all there is to know and can't understand how anyone who has never reloaded but has gone through materials showing/explaining the aspects may still have a question, especially directly to the commentary of a very experienced reloader posting directly to said person who has never reloaded in their life.

Come to think of it, I see experienced reloaders asking questions here all the time. Guess they should have simply "known" too, huh?
Sorry you once again are completely wrong. I do not and never have said that I knew everything there is to know about reloading. I donít think that there is anyone that knows everything there is to know about reloading. I try and just pass on my experience that I have learned over 50 years of reloading. Have I screwed up and gave out the wrong information? Yes. Do I at times ask question? Yes. Do I think you should know everything about reloading? No. But if would have down loaded the instruction manual on both press, like that was suggested you would have known that information. Have you seen either press physically in front of you? By the questions you ask I would say not. I have and I have learned and listening to other people I would not own a LNL at least not at this time. If Hornady got their act together, then if I was in the market for a new press? I then might would consider it. I just donít like the odds of getting a press that may or not work right. Even if it was one present. Iím not out to prove to everyone that Iím going to get a LNL and prove to everyone that it works. I want and need a press to work. To me a LNL I do not think that it would. If you want to get one? Fine we have stated our case. Like I have said do your homework. To me you keep coming up with the dog ate my homework.
Then there's my opinion that the LNL AP is worth trying out from the standpoint I may get a good one just as many others have, as I would prefer what I consider merits of a LNL AP over a Dillon press, and base my personal choices on.

Nothing wrong with either side's opinion as long as it doesn't affect the other side.:cheers:
I would like to know what you think the advantages of the LNL are over the Dillon 650? As a new prospective reloader are.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 14:53
glock20c10mm I look forward to you getting your press and truly hope that it works out for you.... maybe in 6-8 months time the LNL's in production will have tighter tolerences and it will all be a thing in the past, who knows...

As far as the whole it's a conspiricy by Dillon guys to downplay the LNL, a simple google search with key words http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hornady+lnl+priming+problem will bring up numerous pages of hits from many different forums attesting that Steve's and others experiences are not isolated and with most of them Horandy was unable to provide adequate resolutions to the problems. So IMO the problem is real and as I have stated earlier my personal inquires to Horandy were pretty much repuked even after offering to email links to various threads to clarifiy what I was asking.
I have yet to see anyone argue the priming issue with some LNL AP presses isn't real. I know I know it's real.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 15:15
Sorry you once again are completely wrong. I do not and never have said that I knew everything there is to know about reloading. I donít think that there is anyone that knows everything there is to know about reloading. I try and just pass on my experience that I have learned over 50 years of reloading. Have I screwed up and gave out the wrong information? Yes. Do I at times ask question? Yes. Do I think you should know everything about reloading? No. But if would have down loaded the instruction manual on both press, like that was suggested you would have known that information. Have you seen either press physically in front of you? By the questions you ask I would say not. I have and I have learned and listening to other people I would not own a LNL at least not at this time. If Hornady got their act together, then if I was in the market for a new press? I then might would consider it. I just donít like the odds of getting a press that may or not work right. Even if it was one present. Iím not out to prove to everyone that Iím going to get a LNL and prove to everyone that it works. I want and need a press to work. To me a LNL I do not think that it would. If you want to get one? Fine we have stated our case. Like I have said do your homework. To me you keep coming up with the dog ate my homework.

I would like to know what you think the advantages of the LNL are over the Dillon 650? As a new prospective reloader are.
Really? I'm COMPLETELY wrong?!?

By that way of thinking you're suggesting I memorized the reloading press manuals I read. You've blown this completely out of proportion twice now. fredj338 points something out for me. I ask for clarification, and in doing so showed that I did know what was going on, yet still asked just in case there was something I missed or forgot. It turned out I didn't miss or forget anything, as fredj338 told me I was correct! Are you reading every other sentence of what's being posted, or is your reading comprehension that poor?

Then to suggest; "To me you keep coming up with the dog ate my homework." What on earth are you talking about? Please show your examples and how I should have already known the answers. By your standards, it's beginning to sound as if you believe it is a crime for me to ask any question around here. Not to mention that few to any of the question I've asked could be found in the manual of any reloading press.

And then to admit you're still learning. What, all the answers weren't in a book or manual or youtube video or manufacturers website? What's your excuse? Believe me, I don't care in the least, just making a point. And let me guess, now you'll come back and say some along the lines of either I misinterpreted what you posted or you didn't post what you meant to say.

Seriously, WTH?!? What's your real beef here anyway? My opinion clashes with yours and you aren't gonna stand by and take it quietly, or what? Sorry for being human. Guess you're above the human level, huh.

Try and understand, all others will never always agree with your OPINIONS. Nor will all others always agree with my OPINIONS. Seriously, it's okay!

fredj338
08-02-2011, 18:09
Seriously, WTH?!? What's your real beef here anyway? My opinion clashes with yours and you aren't gonna stand by and take it quietly, or what? Sorry for being human. Guess you're above the human level, huh.

Try and understand, all others will never always agree with your OPINIONS. Nor will all others always agree with my OPINIONS. Seriously, it's okay!

I think the issue is you are trying to argue a point with little to no experience, tough to do & be credible. If the idea of asking about the various presses is to get the best one for the money, then you are getting good first hand exp from many here. I don;t own one, but have loaded enough on a LNL to know the 650 is a better press for another $100, but not perfect.
My prefect press, the 650 w/ the LNL powder measure & case retention spring. 6 stns to allow a bullet feeder. Maybe I should start my own company & try to compete w/ the big dogs.:whistling:

n2extrm
08-02-2011, 19:14
I think the issue is you are trying to argue a point with little to no experience, tough to do & be credible. If the idea of asking about the various presses is to get the best one for the money, then you are getting good first hand exp from many here. I don;t own one, but have loaded enough on a LNL to know the 650 is a better press for another $100, but not perfect.
My prefect press, the 650 w/ the LNL powder measure & case retention spring. 6 stns to allow a bullet feeder. Maybe I should start my own company & try to compete w/ the big dogs.:whistling:

But fred all the good colors are taken!:rofl:

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 19:16
I think the issue is you are trying to argue a point with little to no experience, tough to do & be credible.
If I would have done that I would completely understand the flack.

I asked for information, then recieved information, and then made a decision. I haven't once argued that my decision is better than anyone else's recommendations. All I've argued is calling some out on bogus statements made in regard to what they say I said or think that I didn't or don't.

I haven't argued that the LNL press is a better press than a XL 650 and am well aware of the chance I'm taking going with the LNL over a XL 650, which I've clearly stated numerous times.. From what I've seen, heard, and read, I simply believe the LNL press is what I would prefer for me, and hopefully I get a good one.

I understand that others will never understand me making the decision I have based on their experience. But it is my decision for myself. Time will tell if that backfires on me. If it does, it of course won't be anyone else's fault but my own. At this point there is nothing to guarantee I won't be happy with the decision I've made. Time will tell.

It's not like I made my decision in the hopes of annoying others, one way or another. Regardless, it's my decision to make and I'm not arguing anything.

Not ripping on you fredj338, just saying.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 19:21
Still curious why your waiting 8 months for that decked out setup rather then getting the LnL ASAP and starting to save money and have FUN now.

norton
08-02-2011, 19:35
If I would have done that I would completely understand the flack.

I asked for information, then recieved information, and then made a decision. I haven't once argued that my decision is better than anyone else's recommendations. All I've argued is calling some out on bogus statements made in regard to what they say I said or think that I didn't or don't.

I haven't argued that the LNL press is a better press than a XL 650 and am well aware of the chance I'm taking going with the LNL over a XL 650, which I've clearly stated numerous times.. From what I've seen, heard, and read, I simply believe the LNL press is what I would prefer for me, and hopefully I get a good one.

I understand that others will never understand me making the decision I have based on their experience. But it is my decision for myself. Time will tell if that backfires on me. If it does, it of course won't be anyone else's fault but my own. At this point there is nothing to guarantee I won't be happy with the decision I've made. Time will tell.

It's not like I made my decision in the hopes of annoying others, one way or another. Regardless, it's my decision to make and I'm not arguing anything.

Not ripping on you fredj338, just saying.

I see you have been on GT for several years,so I may be talking out of school, but GTR is a little different then many of the forums. We like to banter back and forth, and if Jack weren't out chasing Heather Locklear (where is he anyway?) he would have chimed in with one of his witty but smart a## responses to your comments. But rest assured there is plenty of solid reloading experience from the regulars you are responding too. Take their experience and run with it.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 19:45
Still curious why your waiting 8 months for that decked out setup rather then getting the LnL ASAP and starting to save money and have FUN now.
Because it's not the only item I want, and can only buy so many items off my list at a time, and the LNL AP wasn't next on that list. And with the other items on my list that I still want before a LNL AP, I've decided the LNL AP and accessories will wait till tax return time comes around again in 2012.

On another note, I don't see that I'll save any money by having a LNL AP, but rather shoot more once I do have the press.

glock20c10mm
08-02-2011, 19:53
I see you have been on GT for several years,so I may be talking out of school, but GTR is a little different then many of the forums. We like to banter back and forth, and if Jack weren't out chasing Heather Locklear (where is he anyway?) he would have chimed in with one of his witty but smart a## responses to your comments. But rest assured there is plenty of solid reloading experience from the regulars you are responding too. Take their experience and run with it.
I understand your sentiment. I doubt my mind will change in the next day or two, but a lot can happen over a 8 month or so time frame. That said, my decision isn't really made till I've submitted an order. Just at this time there isn't enough going against the LNL AP for me to not want it, especially considering there are plenty of happy LNL AP owners out there, and if I do order one that turns out to be a dud, I can always get my money back and go blue with the current warranty policies in place.

I would prefer to first take my chances on getting a LNL AP that does work fine. If it doesn't, I'm not really out anything except for time, and I have more time than money anyway.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 20:17
Because it's not the only item I want, and can only buy so many items off my list at a time, and the LNL AP wasn't next on that list. And with the other items on my list that I still want before a LNL AP, I've decided the LNL AP and accessories will wait till tax return time comes around again in 2012.

On another note, I don't see that I'll save any money by having a LNL AP, but rather shoot more once I do have the press.

Buy a LnL. That's fine.

But waiting to start reloading for no good reason at all....... Now that is just not right.

Your officially on my list of bad reloaders to be. It's coal for your stocking.

Boxerglocker
08-02-2011, 20:21
Because it's not the only item I want, and can only buy so many items off my list at a time, and the LNL AP wasn't next on that list. And with the other items on my list that I still want before a LNL AP, I've decided the LNL AP and accessories will wait till tax return time comes around again in 2012.

On another note, I don't see that I'll save any money by having a LNL AP, but rather shoot more once I do have the press.

I realize that everyone has their wish list prioritized differently.
Just as a point of reference.... at a rate if 1000 a month and my current savings of at least $150 a K in reloading vs buying 9mm Wally world WWB ammo. I would have a total savings of $1200, enough to pay off your reloading tooling expenditure on the LNL, casefeeder and bullet feeder.

Colorado4Wheel
08-02-2011, 20:40
I realize that everyone has their wish list prioritized differently.
Just as a point of reference.... at a rate if 1000 a month and my current savings of at least $150 a K in reloading vs buying 9mm Wally world WWB ammo. I would have a total savings of $1200, enough to pay off your reloading tooling expenditure on the LNL, casefeeder and bullet feeder.

Or a Trojan.......

Boxerglocker
08-02-2011, 20:42
Or a Trojan.......

In .40 with the Brazos enhanced competition package, just priced one out the other day :supergrin:

15GLOCKGUY
08-02-2011, 20:46
Negative, ghostrider. I won't be running out anytime soon. I have piles of LP and SP in 5000 ct sleeves now. My 550B is well fed.:supergrin:

15GLOCKGUY
08-02-2011, 20:49
Those who have the Dillon strong mount seem to love them.
I assume they all load while standing up.
I can not stand for long, never have, but after age 60 with a bad back and neck, I simply can not stand for more than a minute or two.
I have always reloaded sitting down. Either on a stool with the press on my work bench or now, sitting in a chair with the press mounted on a table.
Once reason I liked the L-N-L is that station 4, the bullet seating station is right under your nose and, with the press installed on a table, it was very easy to inspect the charge in case prior to placing the bullet on it.
The use of a strong mount, to me, raises the press up to the point where you would need a light and mirror (or a light, video camera, and monitor) to inspect the charge.
The Dillon presses are not that easy to inspect the charge and I have seen lots of lights and mirrors to actually perform the job.
My 1050s are designed with the equivalent of a short strong mount and the cases are really just a little too high for inspection. When I had one press mounted on a lower table, I could just barely inpect the cases.
In this situation, you are "crazy" not be running an RCBS Lock-Out die. Mine is set-up with a strong mount and roller handle. Not the aluminum, the other one with a plastic handle. It reduces fatigue for long sessions and really helps sizing rifle bottleneck cases.

The_Vigilante
08-03-2011, 08:26
Started out cheap with a Lee Turret which was replaced by a Lee Classic Turret. Later added a Lee Loadmaster. Have now graduated to a Dillon 550 and 2 Dillon 650's. The only Lee I use now is a Lee Classic Single Stage which I used for de-priming and priming.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 06:19
Okay, there's something here I don't get.

The LnL has priming issues that cause some here to shy away from it. But quite a few others (such as glock20c10mm) doggedly proceed (or, at least, indicate that they intend to proceed) towards a LnL despite knowing about the relatively well-known priming issue.

And yet, at least some of those very same people will not consider Lee equipment despite the fact that the only real objection to it is the fact that it has well-known priming issues!


This sounds like an inconsistency to me. If you're willing to buy the LnL despite its well-known priming issues, why wouldn't you similarly be willing to buy a Lee progressive (for quite a lot less, I might add) where the only significant well-known issues are in the priming system?

I can understand if you really need or want that 5th station. But that's the only real advantage left that I can see. If you really want a lifetime warranty, you may as well get a press that the manufacturer will not only stand behind, but which doesn't have a well-known issue that the manufacturer cannot fix (because it's a design defect) if you run into it. Which is to say, if you really want a lifetime warranty that really means something, it sounds like Dillon is the only game in town.


Seems to me that if you're willing to take a chance on a press despite a well-known priming issue (that may or may not actually affect you), you may as well save a significant chunk of change and go with one of the Lee progressives... :dunno:

ron59
08-04-2011, 06:52
Okay, there's something here I don't get.

The LnL has priming issues that cause some here to shy away from it. But quite a few others (such as glock20c10mm) doggedly proceed (or, at least, indicate that they intend to proceed) towards a LnL despite knowing about the relatively well-known priming issue.



Piggybacking on your argument....

They doggedly proceed to be determine to buy a press with many known issues. Just to save $150 or so? He keeps saying "I hope I get a good one"... yeah, basically gambling on it. Why not get something with *history* of being good. Yeah, lots of guys do their little tweaks to make it better (the bearing at the shellplate, etc), but it works very damn good, especially with priming, one of the most important parts of the reloading process.

Other than stubborness, and possibly a prejudice against those that preach blue...

I. just. don't. get. it..

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 11:11
It boggles my mind. Look at this thread, Post #35

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1354835#post1354835

I am a couple thousands short of a fully seated primer. My large primers are sticking out of the primer pocket.

I just got off the phone with Hornady, they are sending a new large primer seater, and suggested a small piece of metal under the primer ram. A divot forms where the powder coating wears away.

To get this back on topic, I have the LNL, and really like it. It is quick and relatively cheap to switch calibers. I am however thinking about getting a Super 1050. I have been shooting lots of 9mm lately. I would keep the LNL because when I need less than a couple thousand rounds, I would load that caliber on the LNL and keep the Super 1050 setup for bulk ammo.

I could never like a press that didn't make good ammo. I just don't get it at all. I want to beat it with a hammer if it consistently fails even every 100 rds. Seriously. Why in the world would you put up with that? And the priming problem is MUCH MUCH worse then that for some people.

kshutt
08-04-2011, 11:58
It boggles my mind. Look at this thread, Post #35

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1354835#post1354835



I could never like a press that didn't make good ammo. I just don't get it at all. I want to beat it with a hammer if it consistently fails even every 100 rds. Seriously. Why in the world would you put up with that? And the priming problem is MUCH MUCH worse then that for some people.

Steve, it's ridiculous! Hornady's "high primer" issue was the reason I sold my Pro-Jector, or whatever that piece of crap was called. And they've had how many years now to perfect their priming process??? :dunno:

ron59
08-04-2011, 12:17
But I just don't like Blue! And all those egotistical guys who try to push it!!!!!

Ooops. Sorry. Channeling glock20c10mm there for a second.
:rofl:

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 13:15
Okay, there's something here I don't get.

The LnL has priming issues that cause some here to shy away from it. But quite a few others (such as glock20c10mm) doggedly proceed (or, at least, indicate that they intend to proceed) towards a LnL despite knowing about the relatively well-known priming issue.

And yet, at least some of those very same people will not consider Lee equipment despite the fact that the only real objection to it is the fact that it has well-known priming issue!


This sounds like an inconsistency to me. If you're willing to buy the LnL despite its well-known priming issues, why wouldn't you similarly be willing to buy a Lee progressive (for quite a lot less, I might add) where the only significant well-known issues are in the priming system?

I can understand if you really need or want that 5th station. But that's the only real advantage left that I can see. If you really want a lifetime warranty, you may as well get a press that the manufacturer will not only stand behind, but which doesn't have a well-known issue that the manufacturer cannot fix (because it's a design defect) if you run into it. Which is to say, if you really want a lifetime warranty that really means something, it sounds like Dillon is the only game in town.


Seems to me that if you're willing to take a chance on a press despite a well-known priming issue (that may or may not actually affect you), you may as well save a significant chunk of change and go with one of the Lee progressives... :dunno:
You nailed that one. And yes, it's quite obvious I'm taking a gamble on a new LNL AP. I simply question what the odds are. Some would suggest greater than 50/50 on getting a bad one. I'm not convinced it's anywhere near that high. And let's say I'm wrong...who cares. If it can't seat a primer below flush, I return it and get my money back. If it does work, you can all eat crow.

I didn't come here for knowledge to have others tell me what I'm going to do. I'll make that decision for myself. Plenty of LNL owners say get the LNL press. Plenty of Dillon owners say don't. The blue people are afraid I'll listen to the red people, and the red people are afraid I'll listen to the blue people. And BOTH sides throw out fair arguments. In the end, at least up to this date and time I've decided on a LNL AP.

I have nothing against owners of Dillon presses just because they own a Dillon press. That would be like me not liking my neighbor for driving a different brand vehicle than I do. Amazing how some Dillon owners are bothered so greatly over someone choosing to go with a Horandy LNL AP. Seriously, you've warned me of potential issues, I've made note of those possibilities, I'm still going with a LNL AP that very well may NOT have any issue with it, and life goes on. What can't you understand about that?

ursoboostd
08-04-2011, 13:37
But I just don't like Blue! And all those egotistical guys who try to push it!!!!!

Ooops. Sorry. Channeling glock20c10mm there for a second.
:rofl:
I have a C6 Corvette and a Dillon 650. I have to be one of the biggest egotisical b*stards known to man! :tongueout:

fredj338
08-04-2011, 13:43
I didn't come here for knowledge to have others tell me what I'm going to do. I'll make that decision for myself. Plenty of LNL owners say get the LNL press. Plenty of Dillon owners say don't. The blue people are afraid I'll listen to the red people, and the red people are afraid I'll listen to the blue people. And BOTH sides throw out fair arguments. In the end, at least up to this date and time I've decided on a LNL AP.
Not the case at all. Most LNL owners have never used anything else, so they have no point of ref, same for the Lee guys & many of the Dillon guys. When you get info from those that have used them, then you should listen & choose based on what your needs are.
If you are waiting 8m to buy, then your needs must be small. You probably do not even need a progressive, like most, you just want one now. Might as well get the one you want, but like Steve when he bought his, he had to have the LNL, it didn't work out & now he is on to Blue. I think he was warned too. For $100 on a life time piece of gear, Hmmm.

WiskyT
08-04-2011, 14:20
I have a C6 Corvette and a Dillon 650. I have to be one of the biggest egotisical b*stards known to man! :tongueout:

Or you have feelings of inadequacy:whistling:

ursoboostd
08-04-2011, 15:05
Or you have feelings of inadequacy:whistling:

:uglylol: and a baby wanker. lol

GioaJack
08-04-2011, 16:03
I just got done painting all my equipment camouflage, makes me feel more manly and I stay out of the Red/Blue controversy... the only problem is now I can't find any of it.


Jack
__________________

Fire_Medic
08-04-2011, 16:15
You need your camouflage night vision goggles to spot it.....

:rofl:

Hoser
08-04-2011, 16:22
And yes, it's quite obvious I'm taking a gamble on a new LNL AP.

I must admit, you have guts.

Learning to reload on a press that might or might not work. Not knowing if its you or the press that is screwing up would drive me nuts.

You must make a lot of coin to be willing to gamble like that.

I like to stack the cards in my favor whenever possible. Even if it costs me a little more in the short run.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 16:40
You nailed that one. And yes, it's quite obvious I'm taking a gamble on a new LNL AP. I simply question what the odds are. Some would suggest greater than 50/50 on getting a bad one. I'm not convinced it's anywhere near that high. And let's say I'm wrong...who cares. If it can't seat a primer below flush, I return it and get my money back. If it does work, you can all eat crow.


Of course. If you were rejecting the Lee progressives because of your need for a 5th station and for no other reason then I totally understand your position. I may think that it's best to pony up the extra $100 and get a press that has no such known issues, but it's your call to make.

My message wasn't necessarily directed at you, but to others who may insist on making the same decision as you, but who reject the Lees because of their priming issues (which, I should note for the record, are also a matter of the luck of the draw).



I have nothing against owners of Dillon presses just because they own a Dillon press. That would be like me not liking my neighbor for driving a different brand vehicle than I do. Amazing how some Dillon owners are bothered so greatly over someone choosing to go with a Horandy LNL AP. Seriously, you've warned me of potential issues, I've made note of those possibilities, I'm still going with a LNL AP that very well may NOT have any issue with it, and life goes on. What can't you understand about that?

Yep. And hopefully, it'll work just fine for you. It'll be interesting to see what happens here. Just be sure to report your priming failure rate once you've got things going -- an honest accounting demands that.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 16:50
Piggybacking on your argument....

They doggedly proceed to be determine to buy a press with many known issues. Just to save $150 or so? He keeps saying "I hope I get a good one"... yeah, basically gambling on it. Why not get something with *history* of being good. Yeah, lots of guys do their little tweaks to make it better (the bearing at the shellplate, etc), but it works very damn good, especially with priming, one of the most important parts of the reloading process.


Yeah, no kidding.

I started with a Dillon 650 for that very reason: I wanted something rock solid and capable -- something I could generally depend on to function properly, and which the manufacturer would stand behind completely in the unlikely event it didn't function properly.


I picked up the Lee Loadmaster and Pro 1000 later on because I wanted to take up the challenge of making them work reliably. And in that, I've succeeded for the most part (what problems are left in the Loadmaster -- I have none in the Pro 1000 -- are due to the nature of priming on the ram's upstroke and not due to any specific failing of the Loadmaster. The Dillon 1050 would, I expect, have the same issues).

Basically, I proved that if someone has sufficient skill and determination, they can make the Lee progressives work reliably, and for such a person they'll work just fine as a first progressive as long as that person has other reloading experience. But they have to be willing and able to work any problems through to their resolution.

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 18:30
If you are waiting 8m to buy, then your needs must be small. You probably do not even need a progressive, like most, you just want one now. Might as well get the one you want,

I thought the same thing.


but like Steve when he bought his, he had to have the LNL, it didn't work out & now he is on to Blue. I think he was warned too. For $100 on a life time piece of gear, Hmmm.


But it was SOOOOO worth it. Look at all the fun we are having now because I did it and wasted 5 months trying to get mine to work 1/2 as good as my 650. Now I get to say I have owned a LoadMaster, LCT, 550, 650 and a LnL. As a extra bonus my experience really pisses people off. Lots of fun.

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 18:30
Not the case at all. Most LNL owners have never used anything else, so they have no point of ref, same for the Lee guys & many of the Dillon guys. When you get info from those that have used them, then you should listen & choose based on what your needs are.
If you are waiting 8m to buy, then your needs must be small. You probably do not even need a progressive, like most, you just want one now. Might as well get the one you want, but like Steve when he bought his, he had to have the LNL, it didn't work out & now he is on to Blue. I think he was warned too. For $100 on a life time piece of gear, Hmmm.
So where do the LNL owners fit in that have no issue with their press(es)? Are you saying even though their equipment works now, that they shouldn't expect it to in 6 months to 2 years from now if they use it at all?

I've already called phooey on a 650 loading ammo any faster than a LNL, whether racing or loading at a realistic rate. So if I get one that seats primers properly, and any realistic maximum loading speed on a progressive press can be achieved on a LNL, then what is the huge sway of reasoning in your opinion that suggests I shouldn't mess with a LNL over a 650?

I mean fredj338, what warnings concerning a LNL have been brought up outside of the Hornady case feeder being loud and sometimes allowing a case to tip over before it makes it to the shell plate, and the idea of possibly getting a LNL AP that doesn't seat primers properly?

You, who have used both machines, even like the LNL powder measure & case retention spring better than Dillon's setup. Is this all boiling down to a strong mount and a spare parts kit, or what?

When looking past case/bullet feeders altogether with 100% attention on the LNL AP itself, what besides potential primer seating issues is an issue so large, that many of you consider me lacking in judgement, that suggests I'ld have to be out of my mind to not go with a Dillon XL 650? What?

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 18:34
I've already called phooey on a 650 loading ammo any faster than a LNL, whether racing or loading at a realistic rate.

You would be wrong. But then I speak from experience not watching You Tube.

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 18:38
Now I get to say I have owned a LoadMaster, LCT, 550, 650 and a LnL.
Was the LNL the last progressive press you bought?

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 18:39
Was the LNL the last progressive press you bought?

LCT, Load Master, 550, LnL then the 650.

Even if I pretended it was seating primers right it still is easier to load fast on a 650.

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 18:43
You would be wrong.
Did you forget about Bob? Or is your experience the only experience that matters to you when giving advice to others?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1345343

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 18:53
LCT, Load Master, 550, LnL then the 650.
If you already liked the 550, and would have expected the 650 to be an improvement over it, then what made you decide you had to have a LNL to begin with, over a XL 650? See where I'm going with this? You asked me why I would choose a LNL over a 650 as if it doesn't make sense. But you did it too, regardless of it backfiring or not.

I also find it strange that all your LNL experience is based on a machine that never seated primers correctly, and that you wouldn't put up with 1 in 300 or so cases tipping over from the cased feeder, to the extent you wouldn't keep the press or replace it, but then suggest you had enough quality time with a LNL (that never worked right) to suggest is more less sucks compared to a 650 that you didn't even own yet.

Even if I pretended it was seating primers right it still is easier to load fast on a 650.
Why/How/In what way(s)?

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 18:54
Did you forget about Bob? Or is your experience the only experience that matters to you when giving advice to others?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1345343

I did 5 mins per hundred within no time on my 650. Not 5:21 on a HIGHLY MODIFIED press.

Your just looking for any scrap of info to prove your side. You made your choice weeks ago. You like the shinny red thing, with the bullet feeder to match. That is what is important to you. You don't need a bullet feeder. Thats obvious to everyone but you. In fact a wise person would never, ever, ever start with one. If you were smart you would just get the LnL with out the casefeeder and bullet feeder. Learn the press then add the other stuff. 650 being designed for the casefeeder is a lot easier to setup for a newbie. So I wouldn't feel as bad about starting off with a 650 and a casefeeder from the start. But you already made up your mind. So if your actually into taking any good advice do yourself a favor and just get the LnL with out any of that other stuff.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 18:58
So where do the LNL owners fit in that have no issue with their press(es)? Are you saying even though their equipment works now, that they shouldn't expect it to in 6 months to 2 years from now if they use it at all?


The same place that Lee progressive owners who have no issue with their presses fit in.

I think it's more a question of certainty than anything else.

If you were saving massive amounts of money by going with a LnL than over a Dillon 650, I could understand the choice of a LnL. But you're not, especially when amortized over the useful life of the press (many, many years). I think that is what perplexes most people here about your choice: you're choosing to risk encountering unfixable design issues in the most important subsystem of the press in order to save 10% at most.

Again, it's your choice to make, and there's a better than even chance that you'll get a press that works well for you. The same thing is true of the Lee progressives, too.


By the way, you mention that you want that 5th station. Since you can seat and crimp at the same station, what do you intend to use that 5th station for that wouldn't be available in a 4-station press when you seat and crimp at the same station?

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 19:01
I did 5 mins per hundred within no time on my 650.
So? Many experienced loaders here, using various presses, have suggested it not being common place or realistic loading at that rate on a progressive press. If that's true, then loading 100 rounds in 5 minutes is irrelevant anyway.

Plus, I have yet to see you do it. That's not to say I don't believe you did it, as I do. But since I haven't seen it, what do you attribute to your 21 second faster time? Was it that you didn't fumble a single bullet and simply added bullets faster than Bob, or other stuff?
Not 5:21 on a HIGHLY MODIFIED press.
Define HIGHLY MODIFIED in regard to Bob's press. And please don't tell me "case feeder".

Boxerglocker
08-04-2011, 19:03
Did you forget about Bob? Or is your experience the only experience that matters to you when giving advice to others?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1345343

In all fairness here... I've forwarded that video to several LNL owners I know to assist them in getting it to run right. Even Bob acknowledged the fact that Steve's issues and others issues with the LNL were legit and took a lot of time, file and polish to his LNL to get the case feeder to work right. Kudos to him.
If someone was out there in any of the forums that could say their LNL worked like Bobs out of the box, I haven't heard of any.

As for a LNL case feeder system being able to keep up with XL650 take a look at how fast this XL650 is loading and cycling .223 cases with a trimmer set-up. The same trimmer could be mounted on a LNL....
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLyK1UwuK3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 19:08
If you were saving massive amounts of money by going with a LnL than over a Dillon 650, I could understand the choice of a LnL. But you're not, especially when amortized over the useful life of the press (many, many years). I think that is what perplexes most people here about your choice.
What about those that disagree with most and actually have years of experience on Hornady presses, unlike those that had one for a little while and relatively quickly decided they didn't like it? Do you simply chalk them up as idiots?

By the way, you mention that you want that 5th station. Since you can seat and crimp at the same station, what do you intend to use that 5th station for that wouldn't be available in a 4-station press when you seat and crimp at the same station?
Bullet Feeder. I actually wish it was a 6 station so I could seat and crimp separately along with using a powder cop die and bullet feeder.

Boxerglocker
08-04-2011, 19:10
So? Many experienced loaders here, using various presses, have suggested it not being common place or realistic loading at that rate on a progressive press. If that's true, then loading 100 rounds in 5 minutes is irrelevant anyway.

Plus, I have yet to see you do it. That's not to say I don't believe you did it, as I do. But since I haven't seen it, what do you attribute to your 21 second faster time? Was it that you didn't fumble a single bullet and simply added bullets faster than Bob, or other stuff?

Define HIGHLY MODIFIED in regard to Bob's press. And please don't tell me "case feeder".

5 minutes is easy on a case fed XL650. I average 6 minutes a hundred, load normally 400 at a time in 30 minutes including primer pecking 2 or 3 times a week.
If your asking what HIGHLY MODIFIED means in regards to Bob's LNL you haven't thoroughly read his posts.

glock20c10mm
08-04-2011, 19:14
In all fairness here... I've forwarded that video to several LNL owners I know to assist them in getting it to run right. Even Bob acknowledged the fact that Steve's issues and others issues with the LNL were legit and took a lot of time, file and polish to his LNL to get the case feeder to work right. Kudos to him.
If someone was out there in any of the forums that could say their LNL worked like Bobs out of the box, I haven't heard of any.

As for a LNL case feeder system being able to keep up with XL650 take a look at how fast this XL650 is loading and cycling .223 cases with a trimmer set-up. The same trimmer could be mounted on a LNL....
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLyK1UwuK3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Uh-huh, so I guy works the handle as fast as he can while trying to hold a camera at the same time, in conjunction with both case and bullet feeders, and what was it that was supposed to impress me again? I have yet to hear any experienced loader that anyone should be trying to go that fast anyway. I didn't time it, but about how many rounds per minute would you say he was on par to load in an hour?

Boxerglocker
08-04-2011, 19:28
Uh-huh, so I guy works the handle as fast as he can while trying to hold a camera at the same time, in conjunction with both case and bullet feeders, and what was it that was supposed to impress me again? I have yet to hear any experienced loader that anyone should be trying to go that fast anyway. I didn't time it, but about how many rounds per minute would you say he was on par to load in an hour?

It's not meant to impress you just inform. The difference is in the case feeding systems The 650 is railed and prevents the tipping of shells prior to entering the shell-plate through a locator station. If works right out of the box and didn't have to modified with a file to get it to work.
I trim .223 brass at a rate of 600 a half hour without trying, thats one every three seconds... he's moving faster than that, admittedly he's reason was to show a friend that the 650 system was more reliable and faster as it is compared to a LNL.
I used to load 550 rounds a hour on a SDB so loading 1000 rounds an hour isn't hard on a XL650, I wouldn't do it all the time.... but having that rate running 400-500 at a time is a nice... you walk up get it done till the next day. Reloading to me though somewhat therapeutic isn't my means of relaxation, shooting is. I load to shoot, pure and simple and like to minimize my time at the bench.

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 19:34
So? Many experienced loaders here, using various presses, have suggested it not being common place or realistic loading at that rate on a progressive press. If that's true, then loading 100 rounds in 5 minutes is irrelevant anyway.



I load that fast when I need to. 5 mins is not that fast on my 650. I could go faster for sure. It's nice being able to reliably crank out 300 rds for practice in very short order. Nice and also useful.


Define HIGHLY MODIFIED in regard to Bob's press. And please don't tell me "case feeder".

Nearly every part of the press. Your just not even reading the post of others. I posted that thread a while back to support that "even the people that like the LnL admit they have to modify it" or some such thing. OBVIOUSLY, you didn't even look at the link. To busy looking for the stuff that supports your choice and not looking at stuff that doesn't support your choice.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 19:52
What about those that disagree with most and actually have years of experience on Hornady presses, unlike those that had one for a little while and relatively quickly decided they didn't like it? Do you simply chalk them up as idiots?


I rarely chalk anyone up as an "idiot". Different people have different experiences.

Look, the people who have years of successful experience with Hornady presses either (1) got themselves a press that happened to work properly out of the box, (2) managed to successfully modify their press so that it works properly, (3) use the press in such a way as to avoid whatever problems the press happens to have, or (4) ran into a problem with the press and changed their methods to avoid it.

The question is: how likely is any given person going to be in each of those categories?

There is no press on the planet that is perfect. None. As with anything, when you buy a press, there is some chance that it won't work properly. Neither the Hornady nor the Dillon is an exception to that. So that leaves the much more pertinent question: how likely are you to run into an issue and, if you do, is it going to be correctable?

The general consensus on the Hornady LnL seems to be that if you run into the issue with the priming system that a number of others seem to have, then it is not correctable, because it arises from a design flaw in the press.


Is someone dumb for buying such a press anyway? Maybe. It depends entirely on his reasons for doing so.

In your case, you are taking the not inconsiderable risk that your press will give you priming and casefeeder issues in order to save $100 over a very large period of time. And that is what has some here perplexed. What could possibly be your reason for doing that? Why is it that you appeared to be married to the LnL? What makes it so much more attractive to you than, say, the Dillon 650? That is the question of the day, and is the question to which I don't believe we've seen an answer.



Bullet Feeder. I actually wish it was a 6 station so I could seat and crimp separately along with using a powder cop die and bullet feeder.

OK, makes sense. That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure.


Maybe what you really want is a Dillon 1050. :supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 20:02
OK, makes sense. That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure.

Maybe what you really want is a Dillon 1050. :supergrin:

Nope, 8 stations, some dedicated to specific tasks. So even on the 1050 you end up doing it the same way as on the 650.

kcbrown
08-04-2011, 20:53
Nope, 8 stations, some dedicated to specific tasks. So even on the 1050 you end up doing it the same way as on the 650.

How many stations are dedicated to specific tasks? I know there's a station for primer pocket swaging, and another for priming, but those are the only task-specific stations I'm specifically aware of.


EDIT: Never mind. Just looked at the manual.

What a shame. 8 stations that, except for pocket swaging, are equivalent to a 5 station press.

Colorado4Wheel
08-04-2011, 21:04
1) Case insertion
2) resized and deprimed.
3) swager
4) primer
5) for powder drop (the ones before this don't move, You normally don't primer above the powder measure.)
6) for powder check
7) for seating
8) for crimp.