Pistol calibers similar to 5.7 in capability? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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emt1581
07-25-2011, 18:46
Are there any other rounds that will perform similarly or better to the 5.7 out of a pistol? I'd like to pick up something CCW-able that will have the distance capability and penetration of the 5.7 without upgrading to something in the size and weight of the AR/AK pistols.

I've already got a .460S&W Mag, and while that would kill whatever with the sheer impact/force and it has distance it's also got a limitation of 5rds. and a pretty stout recoil.

Any thoughts on a semi-auto pistol that would be more powerful but in the arena as the Five-seveN?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

9mm +p+
07-25-2011, 21:29
10mm would be closest to flat shooting distance auto in my mine followed by the 357 SIG. 5.7 is a joke of a round, CF 22 magnum that costs a hell of a lot more. Yeah I know everyones cousin knocked over a moose with one last year, still lame.

Decguns
07-25-2011, 21:37
CZ52 or Tokarev in 7.62X25. Ruger P89 in 30 Luger.

TommyV
07-26-2011, 01:48
The only reason the 5.7 is not a viable option is because it has never picked up mainstream acceptance. It is a great round but impractical, especially for pistol use due to the limited/expensive ammo.

For semi-auto, .357 SIG is your best bet for maximum performance. It is a bit expensive but you have many ammo options and can practice with .40 S&W; it shoots very similar. You can also easily swap between the two calibers with one handgun.

emt1581
07-26-2011, 05:20
CZ52 or Tokarev in 7.62X25. Ruger P89 in 30 Luger.

Not sure what 30 Luger is and can't say I've ever seen a P89 in that caliber.

However, I forgot about the x25... that stuff is H O T!! I know I saw youtube vids of it going through both sides of a vest like a hot knife through butter.

Only problem with all the x25 guns is that none of the pistols I've seen have decent/adjustable sights on them.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Foxtrotx1
07-26-2011, 05:33
10mm would be closest to flat shooting distance auto in my mine followed by the 357 SIG. 5.7 is a joke of a round, CF 22 magnum that costs a hell of a lot more. Yeah I know everyones cousin knocked over a moose with one last year, still lame.

10mm is not that flat shooting of a round. 9mm +P and .357 Sig go a lot faster. Along with the 7.62x25 and 30 Luger.

Don't forget the 9x25 the .38 supper and the 9x21.

You must be smoking the good stuff because I have never seen a 22 magnum hit 5.7 velocity out of a pistol barrel. :faint:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/

kirgi08
07-26-2011, 07:57
7.62x25 is about the cheapest ta get,then find a competent smith ta put decent sights on it.I prefer the Tok over the Mak.'08.

<<-- Does carry a Norinco Tok and I don't feel under armed by doing so.

Kegs
07-26-2011, 09:35
10mm is not that flat shooting of a round. 9mm +P and .357 Sig go a lot faster. Along with the 7.62x25 and 30 Luger.


Really? I have a pet load that throws a 135 gr. 1700 fps average (w/chrono @ 5y) in the 10mm out of a 4 1/2" barreled G29. None of these other rounds are throwing as fast as that even with the longer barreled pistols they are chambered in.

By the way...That's 866 fpe compared to the 358 fpe the FiveSeven has.

Don't forget the 9x25 the .38 supper and the 9x21.

You must be smoking the good stuff because I have never seen a 22 magnum hit 5.7 velocity out of a pistol barrel. :faint:I have not clocked 5.7 ammo from the fiveSeven pistol, but it likely will go much faster than .22 mag out of a pistol barrel, and possibly even faster than .22 mag out of a rifle barrel. One thing is for certain, .22 mag out of a pistol barrel is quite slow, and really not much more power than .22lr out of the pistol barrel (which based on my use of the chorno and my AA conversion kit with a 3.8" barrel, you're looking at around 85-90 foot pounds of energy using .22lr). Of course, it is still lethal...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/)The FiveSeven pistol is a cool design, but I would much rather see a slightly larger diameter projectile shot out of it. 7mm would be better for a intermediate field caliber.

emt1581
07-26-2011, 19:42
That it?

-Emt1581

Foxtrotx1
07-27-2011, 02:52
Really? I have a pet load that throws a 135 gr. 1700 fps average (w/chrono @ 5y) in the 10mm out of a 4 1/2" barreled G29. None of these other rounds are throwing as fast as that even with the longer barreled pistols they are chambered in.

By the way...That's 866 fpe compared to the 358 fpe the FiveSeven has.

I have not clocked 5.7 ammo from the fiveSeven pistol, but it likely will go much faster than .22 mag out of a pistol barrel, and possibly even faster than .22 mag out of a rifle barrel. One thing is for certain, .22 mag out of a pistol barrel is quite slow, and really not much more power than .22lr out of the pistol barrel (which based on my use of the chorno and my AA conversion kit with a 3.8" barrel, you're looking at around 85-90 foot pounds of energy using .22lr). Of course, it is still lethal...

The FiveSeven pistol is a cool design, but I would much rather see a slightly larger diameter projectile shot out of it. 7mm would be better for a intermediate field caliber.

Sure if your hand loading to the high end. Factory 10mm ammo doesn't do that.

TommyV
07-27-2011, 22:56
10mms have higher velocity than 9mm or .357 SIG on factory loads but I do not get why some people think it is the holy grail of semi auto pistol rounds. For me I would take .357 SIG over 10mm or any other auto loading pistol round for a self defense.

The 5.7 is a cool round but it has less recoil than a 9mm and is shaped more like a rifle cartridge. Pretty unique and would be hard to find anything to compare to it.

ROG
07-27-2011, 23:25
5.7 is a joke of a round, CF 22 magnum that costs a hell of a lot more.
In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm

emt1581
07-28-2011, 05:12
10mms have higher velocity than 9mm or .357 SIG on factory loads but I do not get why some people think it is the holy grail of semi auto pistol rounds. For me I would take .357 SIG over 10mm or any other auto loading pistol round for a self defense.

The 5.7 is a cool round but it has less recoil than a 9mm and is shaped more like a rifle cartridge. Pretty unique and would be hard to find anything to compare to it.

Can't .357Sig also go through armor? Thought I read that somewhere a while back... :dunno:

BTW, what does a rounds minimal recoil have to do with anything?

-Emt1581

vafish
07-28-2011, 16:27
In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm

Only way to make the 5.7 and .22 mag comparison is to take 5.7 fired from a handgun and .22 mag fired from a rifle.

But I don't see what is so great about the 5.7. It is a very long round for a pistol and needs a large long grip. It's just to small and light of a bullet for me.(and I like 115 gr
+p+ in the 9mm)

jeager
07-28-2011, 17:28
How about a G35 with an aftermarket .357sig barrel?
(ifthereissuchabeast)

ROG
07-28-2011, 18:31
But I don't see what is so great about the 5.7. It is a very long round for a pistol and needs a large long grip.
The 2.75-inch trigger-to-backstrap distance on the Five-seveN is shorter than that of a Gen. 3 Glock 17 (despite the 5.7x28mm cartridge's 1.6-inch length), and the grip widths of the two guns are identical, at 1.2 inches.

93GT
07-29-2011, 11:29
Glock 20 with a 9x25 barrel seems like it would work for what you are talking about. Of course factory loaded ammunition becomes an issue.

chemcmndr
07-30-2011, 07:30
Can't .357Sig also go through armor? Thought I read that somewhere a while back... :dunno:

-Emt1581

I was curious about that myself, so I decided to test it. I shot a 14 layer Kevlar panel with a 125 gr Speer GDHP from my P229 at about 7 yards. The bullet was stopped after about the 3rd layer. It did, however, have enough energy to blow the panel off of the water jug and land it back at my feet.

emt1581
07-30-2011, 07:44
I was curious about that myself, so I decided to test it. I shot a 14 layer Kevlar panel with a 125 gr Speer GDHP from my P229 at about 7 yards. The bullet was stopped after about the 3rd layer. It did, however, have enough energy to blow the panel off of the water jug and land it back at my feet.

This got me thinking about something...

Panels are pretty cheap on ebay. I could probably buy an old/used one for around $20-$30. It'd be interesting to take a bunch of pistols to the range, set one of these up down range and blast away at it just to see if any rounds will actually penetrate and/or FUBAR the panel.

...ok ok... I really just want to see what happens when I fire my .460mag at it. I might put a something like gel or clay behind it to see trauma even if no penetration...

...but other rounds would be interesting to see first hand as well

-Emt1581

chemcmndr
07-30-2011, 12:19
Actually, the kevlar panels I am using are roughly the profile and shape of a football. They have German wording on them, but I still don't know what they were for. A guy sells them at the local gun shows for $2 a panel. He said something about making knee and shin guards out of them but who knows. I just thought they were good for testing bullet penetration on soft body armor with.

emt1581
07-30-2011, 13:02
Actually, the kevlar panels I am using are roughly the profile and shape of a football. They have German wording on them, but I still don't know what they were for. A guy sells them at the local gun shows for $2 a panel. He said something about making knee and shin guards out of them but who knows. I just thought they were good for testing bullet penetration on soft body armor with.

Hmmm...maybe you can send me a bunch and I'll do some tests. $20 should cover a few panels and shipping. :wavey:

-Emt1581

District18
08-02-2011, 11:36
Would a FMJ .357 sig come closer to a 5.7x28 in penetration of barriers than HP .357 sig ?

chemcmndr
08-02-2011, 19:10
Would a FMJ .357 sig come closer to a 5.7x28 in penetration of barriers than HP .357 sig ?

Are you talking in terms of soft body armor? I haven't tried it, but I could. Just taking a SWAG at it, I wouldn't think so. You have a projectile that was designed to have the same muzzle energy of the old 125 gr .357 Magnum rounds and is roughly the same diameter and shape. So, with roughly the same performance as .357 Magnum, I would doubt that the FMJ would penetrate through a Level II vest. Although, I would expect a heck of a lot blunt force trauma to anything on the other side. I know the 7.62x25 Tokarev rounds were really good at going through a Level IIIA helmet from looking at the Box-o-Truth website.

District18
08-03-2011, 06:05
So what does the Tokarev have going for it that other calibers do not? What makes it such a good penetrator of body armor?

kirgi08
08-03-2011, 06:21
Super hot round,the average "ball" ammo is 1500fps +/-.'08.

District18
08-04-2011, 16:28
Super hot round,the average "ball" ammo is 1500fps +/-.'08.

Neat. I may have to add one to my collection.

emt1581
08-04-2011, 16:43
Neat. I may have to add one to my collection.

I have a few. Not real modern and ergonomic but the round they spit out compensates for that and then some.

-Emt1581

chemcmndr
08-07-2011, 11:53
Because I was feeling generous (ok, so I was curious as well) I took a Kevlar panel out and shot it from 5 yards with my Sig P229 .357 SIG using factory Winchester 125 grain FMJ. As I suspected earlier, the round made it through 3 layers of the panel before being stopped. The round flattened out in the typical fashion. I chronographed the ammunition at an average velocity of 1320 fps. (484 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy). The bullet deformed the panel by about 3" which busted a nice hole in the water jug, but the bullet was clearly stopped.

emt1581
08-07-2011, 12:06
Because I was feeling generous (ok, so I was curious as well) I took a Kevlar panel out and shot it from 5 yards with my Sig P229 .357 SIG using factory Winchester 125 grain FMJ. As I suspected earlier, the round made it through 3 layers of the panel before being stopped. The round flattened out in the typical fashion. I chronographed the ammunition at an average velocity of 1320 fps. (484 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy). The bullet deformed the panel by about 3" which busted a nice hole in the water jug, but the bullet was clearly stopped.

Thanks for that. Good to know. For some reason I thought I heard somewhere the the round, while a PITA to load in mags, was actually capable of defeating body armor. Again, thanks for the time/effort.

-Emt1581

happyguy
08-07-2011, 13:22
http://blutube.policeone.com/police-products-videos/935499779001-armorshield-sts-level-iiia-ballistic-vest-field-test-by-us-cavalry/

Regards,
Happyguy :)

chemcmndr
08-07-2011, 17:00
http://blutube.policeone.com/police-products-videos/935499779001-armorshield-sts-level-iiia-ballistic-vest-field-test-by-us-cavalry/

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Very interesting. Although, one thing that these guys (as well as I) didn't take into account would be the blunt force injury. When NIJ goes to assign a rating to a vest, they take penetration as well as blunt force trauma into account. This is why some vests receive a lower rating. They can physically stop the bullets, but the blunt force injury is beyond a certain threshold so it receives a lower rating. I think this is why the level IIIA vest is rated for .357 SIG and the level II vest is not.

21Carrier
08-09-2011, 16:59
10mms have higher velocity than 9mm or .357 SIG on factory loads but I do not get why some people think it is the holy grail of semi auto pistol rounds. For me I would take .357 SIG over 10mm or any other auto loading pistol round for a self defense.


Comparing the .357Sig and 10mm Auto is a losing proposition for the .357Sig. The 10mm fires a larger, heavier bullet, it can fire it faster, and brings 200-300ft-lbs more energy. I'm not sure how the .357Sig is better at all (it's still my second-favorite pistol cartridge). The reason most 10mm fans think the 10mm is the holy grail of auto pistol rounds is that it is simply the most powerful auto round you can get in a duty size (or smaller) pistol. The only auto round that beats it is .50AE, and we all know how practical the Desert Eagle is.

About the 5.7, why do you want something like it? For what would you be using it? If you're thinking self-defense, why would you want the 5.7s flat-shooting ability? If you're planning on taking advantage of it's range, you're gonna be doing some prison time for murder. No jury will understand you shooting someone at 50+yards and calling it self-defense. All of the main auto pistol calibers have more than enough flat-shooting ability for SD. If you want something you can hit targets with at 100 yards, .357Sig, 10mm, or a 10mm converted to 9x25Dillon would be perfect. Plus, they are good SD choices.

The only thing that the 5.7 does is defeat body armor, and that's ONLY with armor piercing rounds, which you can't buy or own. So, basically, you're lusting after a round with advantages that YOU (as a civilian) can't use. For civilian SD, plinking, etc., the 5.7 makes no sense. It's a novelty. Unless you are Secret Service, and plan on encountering foes wearing body armor, AND can buy/use armor piercing rounds, AND might need to shoot someone at 100 yards, the 5.7 is not for you.

ROG
08-09-2011, 18:56
The only thing that the 5.7 does is defeat body armor
The Five-seveN does anything a conventional pistol does, but a Five-seveN pistol loaded with 20 rounds only weighs the same as an empty Glock 17 pistol. The Five-seveN also has a higher flush-fit magazine capacity, shoots flatter, recoils less, and with EA's ammunition has the ability to penetrate any type of soft body armor.



and that's ONLY with armor piercing rounds, which you can't buy or own.
Wrong.

EA's 5.7x28mm civilian ammo types defeat body armor by nature of their muzzle velocities (up to 2,500 ft/s from the Five-seveN pistol).

Trigger Finger
08-09-2011, 18:59
"About the 5.7, why do you want something like it?"

How about the extremely low recoil.
It's great for my wife and myself, with trigger finger in both hands and carpal tunnel in both wrists, it is much more pleasant to shoot. Forget about 50 yards, how about pinpoint accuracy at 20 yards! Magazine capacity and light weight are both very nice.
And how about the fact that I just WANT ONE!! If I have the money I like to expand my collection to newer and maybe better things in the firearms world. I'm old but not stuck in the 70s of 9mm, 357 mag and 45s.

RustyShackelford
08-09-2011, 20:10
"About the 5.7, why do you want something like it?"

How about the extremely low recoil.
It's great for my wife and myself, with trigger finger in both hands and carpal tunnel in both wrists, it is much more pleasant to shoot. Forget about 50 yards, how about pinpoint accuracy at 20 yards! Magazine capacity and light weight are both very nice.
And how about the fact that I just WANT ONE!! If I have the money I like to expand my collection to newer and maybe better things in the firearms world. I'm old but not stuck in the 70s of 9mm, 357 mag and 45s.

I say get it. I would LOVE to get one.

/prefers the OD or tan

racer88
08-09-2011, 21:53
Unless you are Secret Service, and plan on encountering foes wearing body armor, AND can buy/use armor piercing rounds, AND might need to shoot someone at 100 yards, the 5.7 is not for you.

Darn! If only someone had enlightened me before I got mine. Oh well... I love it. My wife loves it (and having a gun my wife likes is ALWAYS a good thing).

But, I just love FNH guns. I'm up to four FNHs, so far. More on the wish list. Their designs are innovative and so different than the other manufacturers. Quality is good, too. They're not cheap though!

21Carrier
08-10-2011, 02:20
The Five-seveN does anything a conventional pistol does, but a Five-seveN pistol loaded with 20 rounds only weighs the same as an empty Glock 17 pistol. The Five-seveN also has a higher flush-fit magazine capacity, shoots flatter, recoils less, and with EA's ammunition has the ability to penetrate any type of soft body armor.




Wrong.

EA's 5.7x28mm civilian ammo types defeat body armor by nature of their muzzle velocities (up to 2,500 ft/s from the Five-seveN pistol).

Ok, so apparently, I've been misinformed. I thought the only 5.7x28mm rounds that reliably defeated body armor were steel armor piercing rounds. I do not agree that a 5.7 will do anything a conventional pistol does. The energy of the round is on the weak side, and the bullet is very small. Ballistic tests have not been that impressive. I just don't see how it out performs the other pistol calibers. I thought it was cool as hell when I shot my friend's five-seven over a year ago, but the ballistic performance wasn't there.

The caliber was developed to offer a pistol/carbine caliber that could defeat body armor, right? I think it's stellar at doing that, but gave up too much in the way of terminal performance.

I can understand the capacity argument and the low recoil. Those are nice features if that's what you want. I just personally see it as a niche round that doesn't have much use for a civilian SD weapon. Nothing against niche calibers or weapons, though, as I'm certainly a 10mm fanboy. I would just rather go with something that is more proven and powerful.

ROG
08-10-2011, 02:42
The energy of the round is pretty weak
EA's 5.7x28mm loads are capable of achieving 400 ft-lb (when fired from the pistol), which is similar to a 9x19mm.



Ballistic tests have not been too promising.
Brassfetcher's high speed video testing with EA's 5.7x28mm Pro II showed the bullet to pass through a 16-inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin, and the bullet's expansion is visible as it exits:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv



I just don't see how it out performs the other pistol calibers.
The Five-seveN doesn't launch the biggest bullet, but neither does a 9mm or .40 S&W. In the end, they all shoot tiny bullets, and they're all highly dependent on shot placement. However, the Five-seveN platform itself has several advantages (listed earlier).



The caliber was developed to offer a pistol/carbine caliber that could defeat body armor, right?
Body armor penetration was only one of the requirements.

The 5.7x28mm was designed (at NATO's request) to replace the 9x19mm, and it would have done so several years ago, but Germany blocked the standardization process (HK's 4.6mm was tested alongside 5.7mm, by NATO, and found to be inferior).

More information:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061016074936/http://www.global-defence.com/2006/Utilities/article.php?id=40

21Carrier
08-10-2011, 03:09
Ok, I went back and did more reading on the subject of the 5.7x28mms armor piercing ability. This website is pretty helpful on the subject:

http://gunwalker.com/5.7x28mm/armorpiercing.html

It appears to me that the SS195 round can penetrate SOME vests (Level II), while the SS196/SS197 was said to not penetrate even Level II kevlar (as tested by FNH from the pistol). Which rounds are available to the general public that are sure to defeat body armor (from the pistol)? The ballistic info that I had seen showed penetration on the order of 11-13" with additional damage being done by the bullet tumbling (as opposed to fragmenting or expanding).

Look, I'm not saying the 5.7x28mm is a bad caliber, and I KNOW FNHerstal makes great products. They are consistently innovative and seem to be out of the box type thinkers. I just don't think it's ideal for CCW. That's what this is about. The OP wanted to know if there was another pistol caliber (for CCW) with the "distance and penetration" capabilities of the 5.7x28mm. I just don't think the 5.7x28mm is a great choice for CCW, and I don't think distance and body armor penetration should be ANYWHERE on a checklist for a CCW gun.

Just compare it to a 9mm. By going with a 9mm instead of a 5.7x28mm, you get TONS more weapon choices, a bit more energy, about identical penetration (no body armor), better hollow point options, larger bullet, cheaper ammo, more selection. With the 5.7x28mm, you're gun selection is VERY limited, ammo is expensive, ammo selection is limited, and the two pluses are that SOME ammo defeats body armor, and you can shoot bad guys at 200 yards. Neither of those are necessary for a CCW gun. That's all I was trying to say. We are CCW holders, there are better choices.

ROG
08-10-2011, 03:21
Which rounds are available to the general public that are sure to defeat body armor (from the pistol)?
I was referring to the 5.7x28mm loads offered by Elite Ammunition (EA). However, new 5.7x28mm loads by Federal are also reportedly in the works.



Just compare it to a 9mm.
Stacked against a comparable 9mm pistol, the Five-seveN is lighter, carries more ammo, shoots flatter, recoils less, and offers the ability to penetrate body armor. As for ammo cost, 5.7x28mm can generally be found for .45 ACP prices.

There is a difference in bullet diameter, yes, but that's negligible in light of the fact that the effectiveness of either caliber is dependent on shot placement. Actually, the unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with 9mm hollowpoints...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/man_shot_times_hears_first_details_7n0Y8ciCj95zaj2xzsUy4K

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Strange-News/Gunman-Shot-21-Times-And-Lives-Angel-Alvarez-Critical-After-Harlem-Shoot-Out-With-New-York-Cops/Article/201008215680186

A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party.

<snip>

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said.

"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

GTFord1
08-11-2011, 16:23
10mm would be closest to flat shooting distance auto in my mine followed by the 357 SIG. 5.7 is a joke of a round, CF 22 magnum that costs a hell of a lot more. Yeah I know everyones cousin knocked over a moose with one last year, still lame.

A. Spew unsubstantiated and easy to disprove nonsense by numerous studies.
B. Flee thread and never respond again.
C. Profit?

Darkangel1846
08-13-2011, 08:53
Just look at the Ft. Hood shooting...he shot what, about 40 people at close range with the 5.7 pistol. He killed 13, one was a pregnant women. The round works at close range, you just have to put the round in the right place. could he have done the same with a 9mm.....just look at the college shooting in Va.

120mm
08-13-2011, 10:59
Just look at the Ft. Hood shooting...he shot what, about 40 people at close range with the 5.7 pistol. He killed 13, one was a pregnant women. The round works at close range, you just have to put the round in the right place. could he have done the same with a 9mm.....just look at the college shooting in Va.

Yes. When you shoot cowering people in the back of the head, even .22 long rifle is more than sufficient to kill them.

The 5.7 round is not fast enough to cause significant permanent trauma, unless you CNS the guy.

The 5.7 round lacks diameter and mass to fully transfer it's energy to a living, breathing target.

Chances are a highly motivated attacker will only notice you've shot him several times after he's standing over your dead body. Then, with time and shock, he may or may not collapse or slowly bleed to death.

Compare 5.7 to modern 9mm hollowpoint or any competent round, and it comes out a loser. Unless you want to drill teeny tiny holes into someone for the fun of it.

ROG
08-13-2011, 17:32
Yes. When you shoot cowering people in the back of the head, even .22 long rifle is more than sufficient to kill them.
The Fort Hood shooter did not "shoot cowering people in the back of the head." Furthermore, if someone is shot in the head, it makes no difference if they're "cowering" or not.

Regardless, all of the victims at Fort Hood were highly motivated -- intent on escaping, helping others escape, treating others, or charging the gunman with chairs or tables. The two men that tried to charge Hasan were shot and killed.

Even police Sgt. Munley, who was shot in the leg, almost died of blood loss (according to her own comments, her femur was shattered into hundreds of fragments by the bullet, and she almost lost her leg as a result).



The 5.7 round is not fast enough to cause significant permanent trauma, unless you CNS the guy.
The same is true of all of the common pistol calibers.



The 5.7 round lacks diameter and mass to fully transfer it's energy
Actually, in all of the gelatin testing available online, the 5.7x28mm has been shown to transfer most or all of its energy into a wound track about 9-14 inches deep, just like any of the common pistol calibers.



Chances are a highly motivated attacker will only notice you've shot him several times after he's standing over your dead body. Then, with time and shock, he may or may not collapse or slowly bleed to death.
All of the victims at Fort Hood were highly motivated. They were intent on escaping, helping others escape, treating others, or charging the gunman with chairs or tables.



Compare 5.7 to modern 9mm hollowpoint or any competent round, and it comes out a loser. Unless you want to drill teeny tiny holes into someone for the fun of it.
All of the common pistol calibers, including the 9mm, drill tiny holes in ballistic gelatin and elastic human tissue. Perhaps you should have read the thread before replying, because we already went over this.

There is a small difference in bullet diameter, yes, but that's negligible in light of the fact that the effectiveness of either caliber is dependent on shot placement. The unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with 9mm hollowpoints...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/man_shot_times_hears_first_details_7n0Y8ciCj95zaj2xzsUy4K

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Strange-News/Gunman-Shot-21-Times-And-Lives-Angel-Alvarez-Critical-After-Harlem-Shoot-Out-With-New-York-Cops/Article/201008215680186

A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party.

<snip>

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said.

"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

racer88
08-13-2011, 17:43
The 5.7 round lacks diameter and mass to fully transfer it's energy to a living, breathing target.

This claim actually violates the laws of physics (conservation of energy, 1st law of Thermodynamics). ALL rounds MUST transfer ALL their energy to the target. Different rounds will have different energies. But, none of them "lose" any energy. All of the energy will be transferred or transformed into another state of energy.

I just read this interesting article on the comparative "stopping powers" of various calibers. It is a very interesting read, and it effectively confirms that shot PLACEMENT is really key. There was not much difference in stopping power across the various common handgun calibers (from .22 - .45). Check it out:
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866)

gatorboy
08-14-2011, 23:36
10mm is not that flat shooting of a round. 9mm +P and .357 Sig go a lot faster. Along with the 7.62x25 and 30 Luger.

Don't forget the 9x25 the .38 supper and the 9x21.

You must be smoking the good stuff because I have never seen a 22 magnum hit 5.7 velocity out of a pistol barrel. :faint:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/

Well your ***** must not be bad because that up there is laughable.