So, when did god change his mind? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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frank4570
07-27-2011, 16:11
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?

BradD
07-27-2011, 16:16
Read Galatians from 2:15 to the end. The answer is there.

Brasso
07-27-2011, 16:56
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?

It's pretty sad that an atheist thought of this. If only more Christians would come out of their box and think.

Not that I'm encouraging atheism. Far from it. But he makes some good points.

BradD
07-27-2011, 17:00
Brasso, I won't debate any of this endlessly, but I have a question for you. If you believe in keeping the Law as part of your salvation (and I'm sorry if I'm mis-stating that), how do you get past Galatians?

Japle
07-27-2011, 17:06
The rules of any religion are made by the people who run the church.

If you only need to be a good person to be saved, you don't need a church.

If you don't need a church, you won't contribute money to a church.

The people who run the church are the ones who need your money to live the lifestyle they enjoy. They make the rules.

It's not hard to understand.

Vic Hays
07-27-2011, 19:33
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?

The problem is that there aren't any "good" people, but since Jesus died for all sinners from the beginning of creation, God has been able to be merciful.

Peter wrote that the rules haven't changed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Brasso
07-27-2011, 20:26
Brasso, I won't debate any of this endlessly, but I have a question for you. If you believe in keeping the Law as part of your salvation (and I'm sorry if I'm mis-stating that), how do you get past Galatians?

I don't believe in keeping the Law as part of my salvation. This is where Christianity misses the mark, so to speak.

My salvation was secured when Messiah died on the cross and I accepted Him. The works come in later, as I try to live an obedient life to please Him. You don't keep the Law to get saved. You keep it because you ARE saved. That's part of the Covenant. He redeems you and in return you try not to keep sinning. This is the True Gospel.

REPENT! and believe for the Kingdom of God is a hand. Christians have the grace and forgiveness down pretty good. It's the repent part that they seem to have a problem with. You can't repent to something that you think no longer exists. Look up the definition of repent. It doesn't simply mean to feel sorry about what you did or didn't do. It means to turn and go back the other way. There is only One way. There has always been only One way. God has been trying to get His people to follow it for thousands of years.

Galatians has nothing to do with the Law becoming void.

Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 “Also, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. I call to them, let them stand together.
Isa 48:14 “All of you, gather yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these? יהוה has loved him. Let him do His pleasure on Baḇel, and His arm be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 “I, I have spoken, I have also called him, I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Master יהוה has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Isa 48:17 Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl, “I am יהוה your Elohim, teaching you what is best, leading you by the way you should go.
Isa 48:18 “If only you had listened to My commands! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light.

There is a pretty good partial study of Galatians here:
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson60.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson61.html

frank4570
07-27-2011, 21:34
The problem is that there aren't any "good" people, but since Jesus died for all sinners from the beginning of creation, God has been able to be merciful.

Peter wrote that the rules haven't changed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

So, you're saying that non jews and non christians have always, and still are able to get to heaven same as jews and christians?

Norske
07-27-2011, 21:38
Why are there so MANY Gods?

Why are there so MANY religions?

Why are there so MANY variations of religions within Religions?

How many people do you know who are sure that "their" religion is the only "right" one and all others are false? What if ALL religions are equally false?

There are ONLY TWO invariable constants about Religions throughout history, worldwide.

(1) The existence of A Religion of some kind or another.

(2) Clergy within said Religion who derive their sustenance from the contributions of the faithful marks who buy whatever is their load of nonsense about "what God wants" of them.

Some Clergy say God demands a 10% Tithe envelope in the offering plate every Sunday. Some such Clergy demand to see your Tax Returns to ensure that you are not shorting God's take from you.

At least one Clergyman said that God demanded that several hundred faithful followers feed cyanide-laced Kool-Aide to their children and then drink some themselves. And they did.

Some Clergy say that God demands that they hijack airliners and slam them into skyscrapers. And they did.

Gee, God sure cannot seem to make up his mind about what he wants from us, does he/she/it?

Could it possibly be that (gasp!) the unquestionable Clergy are lying to us about what God wants from us? Either because they are just as deluded as their predecessors who lied to them, or they are simply lying for their own personal benefit? Hard to say which, but it doesn't matter anyway.

Even the Gods themselves are not constant.

That which is "important" is that which is always a constant.

Gods are never constant from one religion to another.

Therefore, the details of the individual God worshipped are unimportant.

They are "mportant" only to provide moral authority to the clergy, so said clergy can demand material support of the gullible faithful.



They also waste a lot of time on meaningless, button sorting, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments and "Holy Book" quotations such as you see thread after thread after thread about here in the GT-RF.

Vic Hays
07-27-2011, 22:15
So, you're saying that non jews and non christians have always, and still are able to get to heaven same as jews and christians?


Not me. The Bible says so. God is willing to overlook ignorance as long as it is not willful. With knowledge comes responsibilty.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

FifthFreedom
07-28-2011, 07:43
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?

Short answer:

He never did.
There is no "Hell" in the Torah either.

Vic Hays
07-28-2011, 10:01
Short answer:

He never did.
There is no "Hell" in the Torah either.

That is correct. The idea of a continually burning Hell is not Biblical. There is the grave, and there is the garbage dump where things get burned up. The idea of being tortured in an afterlife is of pagan origin.

Malachi 4:1 " For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

ricklee4570
07-28-2011, 10:08
Its all in the bible, you just have to find it!

Norske
07-28-2011, 17:37
Its all in the bible, you just have to find it!

Fine.

First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.

:dunno:

And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

"Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

Unproven opinion.

SDGlock23
07-28-2011, 18:04
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?

First is knowing that there are no good people, none of us are born worthy of salvation as is and back then for God to grant remission from sin there had to be shedding of blood.

God didn't then create Jesus and hell, Jesus was created long before then but only came to earth as God in the flesh to redeem mankind once and for all, the perfect Sacrifice. Father God deemed our earthly sacrifices as insufficient and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the Savior of all mankind as long as man believed and followed Jesus' ways.

Hell/Sheol/Tarturus/etc was created when Lucifer rebelled against God. He and 1/3 of Heaven were cast down to earth and some into the pit bound in chains until the time appointed by Yahweh revealed in Revelation. We are here because during the rebellion we chose to inhabit bodies of man and get a second chance, those who didn't choose to are forever damned. Those who have the eyes to see that they need Jesus will be granted eternal life so that we can go back home to our original state, which is in Heaven with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

Also even back then, when the "good" people, being those who lived by the Law of God died, they didn't go to Heaven. They went to the better side of Hades. Now after Jesus' resurrection, all go to Heaven. But the Bible also says there is going to be a new Heaven and a new earth when Satan's 7000 year timeline is up.

So why did God change the rules? Animal sacrifice was no longer sufficient. His Son Yeshua would be the final and ultimate sacrifice for all of humanity. Belief in and obedience to Jesus is key to making it to heaven.

PRAISE JESUS FOREVER AND FOREVER!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAian48rpRA

frank4570
07-28-2011, 18:07
That is correct. The idea of a continually burning Hell is not Biblical. There is the grave, and there is the garbage dump where things get burned up. The idea of being tortured in an afterlife is of pagan origin.



That might be worth it's own thread.

Ogreon
07-28-2011, 21:02
Fine.

First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.

:dunno:


Even if one denies that the Bible is the word of God... It is an example of ancient literature. It sheds life on ancient culture and belief. It has reverberated throughout the art and philosophy of western civilization. The language of the King James Version has had major impact on English literature. Looks like a lot of worth to me.

Are the Iliad and the Odyssey trash because Zeus doesn't sit on Olympus?

Brasso
07-28-2011, 21:21
Nevermind.

Blast
07-28-2011, 21:23
Even if one denies that the Bible is the word of God... It is an example of ancient literature. It sheds life on ancient culture and belief. It has reverberated throughout the art and philosophy of western civilization. The language of the King James Version has had major impact on English literature. Looks like a lot of worth to me.

Are the Iliad and the Odyssey trash because Zeus doesn't sit on Olympus?
I think "Thor" is upset because Odin doesn't sit in Asgard.:whistling:

Kingarthurhk
07-29-2011, 04:52
Fine.

And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

"Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

Unproven opinion.

Hebrews 11:"<SUP>1</SUP> Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. <SUP id=en-NIV-30175 class=versenum>2</SUP> This is what the ancients were commended for.

<SUP id=en-NIV-30176 class=versenum>3</SUP> By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30177 class=versenum>4</SUP> By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30178 class=versenum>5</SUP> By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”<SUP class=footnote value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30178a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30178a)]</SUP> For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. <SUP id=en-NIV-30179 class=versenum>6</SUP> And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30180 class=versenum>7</SUP> By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30181 class=versenum>8</SUP> By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. <SUP id=en-NIV-30182 class=versenum>9</SUP> By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. <SUP id=en-NIV-30183 class=versenum>10</SUP> For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. <SUP id=en-NIV-30184 class=versenum>11</SUP> And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she<SUP class=footnote value=''>[[B]b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30184b)]</SUP> considered him faithful who had made the promise. <SUP id=en-NIV-30185 class=versenum>12</SUP> And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30186 class=versenum>13</SUP> All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. <SUP id=en-NIV-30187 class=versenum>14</SUP> People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. <SUP id=en-NIV-30188 class=versenum>15</SUP> If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. <SUP id=en-NIV-30189 class=versenum>16</SUP> Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30190 class=versenum>17</SUP> By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, <SUP id=en-NIV-30191 class=versenum>18</SUP> even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”<SUP class=footnote value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30191c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30191c)]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NIV-30192 class=versenum>19</SUP> Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30193 class=versenum>20</SUP> By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30194 class=versenum>21</SUP> By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30195 class=versenum>22</SUP> By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30196 class=versenum>23</SUP> By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30197 class=versenum>24</SUP> By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. <SUP id=en-NIV-30198 class=versenum>25</SUP> He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. <SUP id=en-NIV-30199 class=versenum>26</SUP> He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. <SUP id=en-NIV-30200 class=versenum>27</SUP> By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. <SUP id=en-NIV-30201 class=versenum>28</SUP> By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30202 class=versenum>29</SUP> By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30203 class=versenum>30</SUP> By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
<SUP id=en-NIV-30204 class=versenum>31</SUP> By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.<SUP class=footnote value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30204d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30204d)]</SUP>
<SUP id=en-NIV-30205 class=versenum>32</SUP> And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, <SUP id=en-NIV-30206 class=versenum>33</SUP> who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, <SUP id=en-NIV-30207 class=versenum>34</SUP> quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. <SUP id=en-NIV-30208 class=versenum>35</SUP> Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. <SUP id=en-NIV-30209 class=versenum>36</SUP> Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. <SUP id=en-NIV-30210 class=versenum>37</SUP> They were put to death by stoning;<SUP class=footnote value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30210e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30210e)]</SUP> they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— <SUP id=en-NIV-30211 class=versenum>38</SUP> the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. <SUP id=en-NIV-30212 class=versenum>39</SUP> These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, <SUP id=en-NIV-30213 class=versenum>40</SUP> since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. "

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 06:59
Hell/Sheol/Tarturus/etc was created when Lucifer rebelled against God. He and 1/3 of Heaven were cast down to earth and some into the pit bound in chains until the time appointed by Yahweh revealed in Revelation. We are here because during the rebellion we chose to inhabit bodies of man and get a second chance, those who didn't choose to are forever damned. Those who have the eyes to see that they need Jesus will be granted eternal life so that we can go back home to our original state, which is in Heaven with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAian48rpRA

Sheol is a Hebrew word which means "Grave" it's funny jsus once used the word Tarturus since it refers to the underworld in Greek mythology. Another pagan reference. Why would he have used such a term?
Lucifer? Oh never mind lol

Brasso
07-29-2011, 08:03
Most of Christianity's ideas about hell came from Dante.

achysklic
07-29-2011, 08:17
Sheol is a Hebrew word which means "Grave" it's funny jsus once used the word Tarturus since it refers to the underworld in Greek mythology. Another pagan reference. Why would he have used such a term?
Lucifer? Oh never mind lol

The Greek word "grave" is Hades this is the word most commonly used in the NT to describe Hell.

achysklic
07-29-2011, 08:23
Hell/Sheol/Tarturus/etc was created when Lucifer rebelled against God. He and 1/3 of Heaven were cast down to earth and some into the pit bound in chains until the time appointed by Yahweh revealed in Revelation. We are here because during the rebellion we chose to inhabit bodies of man and get a second chance, those who didn't choose to are forever damned. Those who have the eyes to see that they need Jesus will be granted eternal life so that we can go back home to our original state, which is in Heaven with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.


Are you saying that some of the falling angels are bound in pit?

This event mentioned in Rev. hasn't happened yet, you do realize this don't you?

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 08:29
The Greek word "grave" is Hades this is the word most commonly used in the NT to describe Hell.


But why would it? It only meant "grave" except to Greek Pagans.

frank4570
07-29-2011, 08:33
This thread does not include whether or not the bible is real. It is about christian beliefs.


Fine.

First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.

:dunno:

And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

"Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

Unproven opinion.

frank4570
07-29-2011, 08:39
Also even back then, when the "good" people, being those who lived by the Law of God died, they didn't go to Heaven.They went to the better side of Hades.

What do you base that on? You know you are talking about jewish beliefs?



Now after Jesus' resurrection, all go to Heaven. But the Bible also says there is going to be a new Heaven and a new earth when Satan's 7000 year timeline is up.



So now all humans go to heaven? Seriously?

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 08:41
Also even back then, when the "good" people, being those who lived by the Law of God died, they didn't go to Heaven. They went to the better side of Hades. Now after Jesus' resurrection, all go to Heaven. But the Bible also says there is going to be a new Heaven and a new earth when Satan's 7000 year timeline is up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAian48rpRA


Where did Elijah go brainiac?

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 12:08
Numbers 23:19, "G-d is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind". . .

Ogreon
07-29-2011, 13:23
Sheol is a Hebrew word which means "Grave" it's funny jsus once used the word Tarturus since it refers to the underworld in Greek mythology. Another pagan reference. Why would he have used such a term?
Lucifer? Oh never mind lol

It should be remembered that the Gospels we have are a translation. Jesus would have been mostly/entirely speaking in either Aramaic or Hebrew.

Vic Hays
07-29-2011, 18:09
Numbers 23:19, "G-d is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind". . .

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

FlyboyLDB
07-29-2011, 21:08
The rules of any religion are made by the people who run the church.

If you only need to be a good person to be saved, you don't need a church.

If you don't need a church, you won't contribute money to a church.

The people who run the church are the ones who need your money to live the lifestyle they enjoy. They make the rules.

It's not hard to understand.

So go to church and don't give them your $$$$. Not many have rules to the contrary. Or you can test God - this is the only area God tells you test him or trust him - whichever way you want to look at it. I guess you can "beat the system" by showing up to church and never putting a penny into the plate.

Japle
07-30-2011, 09:53
Posted by FlyboyLDB:
So go to church and don't give them your $$$$. Not many have rules to the contrary. Or you can test God - this is the only area God tells you test him or trust him - whichever way you want to look at it. I guess you can "beat the system" by showing up to church and never putting a penny into the plate.
Funny you should mention it, but I do go to church and I never contribute a cent. I play in the "orchestra". Lately that's three guitars, piano, drums, a flute or two, a French horn, a trombone and me on trumpet or cornet or flugelhorn, depending on the music and what I feel like playing that day. As soon as the music portion of the service is over, I’m gone. I only go there to maintain my basic skills on the horn(s).

I generally pay minimal attention to the sermons and prayers. No one seems to mind as long as I play for them. No one has ever asked me about joining the church or about my religious beliefs.

FifthFreedom
07-31-2011, 10:22
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

(deleted)

Norske
07-31-2011, 14:11
This thread does not include whether or not the bible is real. It is about christian beliefs.


Christians "believe" that the Bible is the revealed word of God. That is fundamental to their "faith".

I cannot see how a "Christian" can not believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God and still be a Christian.

The same goes for any other religion and it's "Holy Text". Muslims and the Quaran, for instance.

In fact, every word of "Holy Texts", all of them, is written by men. Mortal men.

Mortal men who claim that God spoke to them.

If a stranger walks up to me and says. "God talks to me. He told me to tell you that you are to do everything and anything I say from here on until you die".

There are three possibilities. Said Stranger is (1) Lying, (2) Insane, or (3) God really has spoken to him and I had better darn well do what he says.

But unless he immediately starts feeding 5,000 people out of his own pocket before my own eyes, I am going to assume (1 or 2) and not (3).

So. How are we to know that the mortal men who put down the words that make up the Bible were not (1 or 2) but were in fact (3)???

Have to take it on faith. Have to believe it as fact without any proof. :shocked:

Which requires us to turn off any sort of intelligent thought process. :dunno:

Sorry. Not for me. :tongueout:

And I will continue to point out that the emporer is buck nekkid at every chance I get.

gemeinschaft
07-31-2011, 16:26
Norske, I would challenge you to study the Bible in order to try to disprove it.

Pro 8:27"When He prepared the heavens, I [was] there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,"

I find it very interesting to read things like this in the Bible. If only mortal men wrote the Bible, how is it they they had knowledge of Fountains of the Deep? Did they explore the world's oceans with submersible ROVs and witness these fountains of the deep?

Hear is the mention of these Fountains of the Deep in Genesis.

Gen 8:1 "Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that [were] with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided.
Gen 8:2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.
Gen 8:3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased."

What I find interesting is about people who profess that they have no faith in something unless they can see it will agree that the wind exists, yet they cannot see it; they only see the evidence of wind, but not wind itself.

As I sit hear writing, there are radio waves travelling through the air and if I turn on a radio, I can hear many stations; yet, I cannot see them, but i have faith that they are there.

People put so much "Faith" into science, but in my opinion, they fail to adequately question Science. For instance, Radio Carbon Dating has been around since 1950. Many of our commonly accepted scientific estimates are based on Carbon Dating, yet we have only had 61 years of observation in order to base this forecast.

To put that into simpler terms, let's take a look at a 2 hour movie. That is 120 minutes of 60 seconds per minute at 30 frames a second.

There are 216,000 frames to a 2 hour movie.

If we believe what Science has determined to be the age of the earth to be accurate, approx 4 Billion years old based on a whopping 61 years of observation.

That means that we have only observed 0.000001525% of that 4 Billion years and somehow we think we are in the ballpark on that estimate.

In regards to our 2 hour movie, this equates to 0.003294 of a frame of the movie. Somehow we are supposed to base all of our guesses on the beginning and end of the movie on 0.003294 of a frame of the movie? Really?

Oh, but wait, we do have some known values that have been tested. For instance, manuscripts that are known to be about 2,000 years old.

So now we can observe 0.000049999999999999996% of the Estimated 4 Billion years and draw conclusions upon that... Going back to our movie, that is still only a small fraction of a frame of the movie.

One thing that Science still has yet to prove is how it is that Chaos became Order? I have seen explosions and their effects. I have never seen anything created by some great blast, only destroyed.

If I took a wristwatch apart and put it into a bag, how long would I have to shake the bag until the wristwatch fell together?

Do you have faith that the wristwatch would somehow come together over the course of millions of years of being shaken in a bag?

Despite the great advances in science, there still is no explanation on how to spawn life into a non-living object. I take pity on those how look at the fascinating structure of DNA or the operations of a living cell and think that all of this somehow evolved out of some other living thing at which no one seems to know how to create life.

Sure, we can take a living cell and manipulate it, but we cannot give anything life. Only the creator can do that.

It makes sense to me that all of mankind is wired to know that there is something greater than themselves.

I strongly believe that all of mankind will believe in God, whether in this world or the next, it is up to them.

Japle
07-31-2011, 18:33
Posted by Norske:
Christians "believe" that the Bible is the revealed word of God. That is fundamental to their "faith".

I cannot see how a "Christian" can not believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God and still be a Christian.

The same goes for any other religion and it's "Holy Text". Muslims and the Quaran, for instance.

In fact, every word of "Holy Texts", all of them, is written by men. Mortal men.

Mortal men who claim that God spoke to them.

Or, to paraphrase a favorite saying of a buddy of mine,

“Mythology is still mythology, even when it’s written down in a specially marked book.”

Ogreon
07-31-2011, 19:25
But unless he immediately starts feeding 5,000 people out of his own pocket before my own eyes, I am going to assume (1 or 2) and not (3).


So...God only speaks to rich guys?

Animal Mother
07-31-2011, 23:43
I find it very interesting to read things like this in the Bible. If only mortal men wrote the Bible, how is it they they had knowledge of Fountains of the Deep? Did they explore the world's oceans with submersible ROVs and witness these fountains of the deep? I'm fairly certain they had wells and geysers before submarines were invented. Equating biblical fountains of the deep with things like black smokers is just an example of reinterpreting the Bible to meet current scientific knowledge.
What I find interesting is about people who profess that they have no faith in something unless they can see it will agree that the wind exists, yet they cannot see it; they only see the evidence of wind, but not wind itself. What is "wind"?
As I sit hear writing, there are radio waves travelling through the air and if I turn on a radio, I can hear many stations; yet, I cannot see them, but i have faith that they are there. Is sight the only valid sense? Are our five senses the only way to detect things? Regarding radio waves, you don't have to have faith they're there, the radio receiver acts as a detector that demonstrates their existence.
People put so much "Faith" into science, but in my opinion, they fail to adequately question Science. For instance, Radio Carbon Dating has been around since 1950. Many of our commonly accepted scientific estimates are based on Carbon Dating, yet we have only had 61 years of observation in order to base this forecast. No, they aren't, since carbon dating can only be used to date materials that contain carbon and only up to about 60000 years before present.
If we believe what Science has determined to be the age of the earth to be accurate, approx 4 Billion years old based on a whopping 61 years of observation. Is our understanding of nuclear fusion wrong because we've only been aware of it for roughly 100 years?
If I took a wristwatch apart and put it into a bag, how long would I have to shake the bag until the wristwatch fell together?

Do you have faith that the wristwatch would somehow come together over the course of millions of years of being shaken in a bag? Are wristwatches organic and capable of reproduction?
Despite the great advances in science, there still is no explanation on how to spawn life into a non-living object. I take pity on those how look at the fascinating structure of DNA or the operations of a living cell and think that all of this somehow evolved out of some other living thing at which no one seems to know how to create life. If common descent isn't valid, how do you explain the commonality of DNA among all living organisms?
Sure, we can take a living cell and manipulate it, but we cannot give anything life. Only the creator can do that.

It makes sense to me that all of mankind is wired to know that there is something greater than themselves.

I strongly believe that all of mankind will believe in God, whether in this world or the next, it is up to them. You've thrown out basically the whole ball of creationist objections to modern science, but what you haven't done is answer any of the responses to those objections which have been patiently explained time and time again over the last 30 years. When literally all of the evidence supports the scientific position, "I just don't believe it" isn't an objection worthy of serious consideration.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 12:00
Where did Elijah go brainiac?

He was taken up to Heaven. Why? God chose to, first. He didn't physically die, he was taken up. So was Enoch. It is thought these are the two witnesses of the last days, they come back to earth and are killed and rise 3 days later. They never died, they're still alive.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 12:04
What do you base that on? You know you are talking about jewish beliefs?

Based on prior to Yeshua's death and resurrection. Nobody (save Enoch and Elijah) could enter Heaven. During the time of His death and resurrection, He went into Hades and delivered up the righteous into Heaven.


So now all humans go to heaven? Seriously?

Probably should have clarified, by all I meant the born again followers of Jesus Christ, aka Christians. The Bible says that not all who cry out to Him "Lord, Lord" will enter Heaven. It's all about relationship and obedience. So no, I'm not saying all humans go to heaven.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 12:16
Sheol is a Hebrew word which means "Grave" it's funny jsus once used the word Tarturus since it refers to the underworld in Greek mythology. Another pagan reference. Why would he have used such a term?
Lucifer? Oh never mind lol

Simply because it's referred to in Greek mythology means it's automatically wrong and thus Pagan? Tartarus is mentioned in the Bible, even the oldest book in there, Job. And no, I'm not endorsing Greek mythology, but I do believe these little-g gods existed.

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 12:20
Simply because it's referred to in Greek mythology means it's automatically wrong and thus Pagan? Tartarus is mentioned in the Bible, even the oldest book in there, Job. And no, I'm not endorsing Greek mythology, but I do believe these little-g gods existed.

Please quote where this word is used in the book of Job. I am speaking of the text here. Job was written in Hebrew, why would it have a Greek word there?

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 12:22
He was taken up to Heaven. Why? God chose to, first. He didn't physically die, he was taken up. So was Enoch. It is thought these are the two witnesses of the last days, they come back to earth and are killed and rise 3 days later. They never died, they're still alive.


But since jsus wasn't born yet, how did they get to where they are without him since they didn't "go through jsus" same with Moses, Abraham, etc..

gemeinschaft
08-01-2011, 12:24
I'm fairly certain they had wells and geysers before submarines were invented. Equating biblical fountains of the deep with things like black smokers is just an example of reinterpreting the Bible to meet current scientific knowledge.
What is "wind"?
Is sight the only valid sense? Are our five senses the only way to detect things? Regarding radio waves, you don't have to have faith they're there, the radio receiver acts as a detector that demonstrates their existence.
No, they aren't, since carbon dating can only be used to date materials that contain carbon and only up to about 60000 years before present.
Is our understanding of nuclear fusion wrong because we've only been aware of it for roughly 100 years?
Are wristwatches organic and capable of reproduction?
If common descent isn't valid, how do you explain the commonality of DNA among all living organisms?
You've thrown out basically the whole ball of creationist objections to modern science, but what you haven't done is answer any of the responses to those objections which have been patiently explained time and time again over the last 30 years. When literally all of the evidence supports the scientific position, "I just don't believe it" isn't an objection worthy of serious consideration.


So do you have a soul or are you just some organic material that was spawned through millions of years of evolution?

I am also curious to hear what you think happens when we die.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 12:52
Are you saying that some of the falling angels are bound in pit?

Yes, they are reserved there until the day of judgment. It's in the Scriptures.

This event mentioned in Rev. hasn't happened yet, you do realize this don't you?

I am referring to an event that happened long ago, not in Revelation. Lucifer, the first created of the Archangels rebelled against the Most High. For those that want to know, Lucifer (Satanael) was created first, then Michael, then Gabriel, then Uriel, then Raphael, and then Nathanael and 6,000 other angels. He (Luicifer) wanted his throne to be above Yahweh's. He (Lucifer) also didn't give glory to God for His finest creation, mankind, who was created in God's hand with one grain of dust, one drop of water, a puff of wind, and from fire, heat and warmth. Does not the Bible say our bodies will return to the dust from which we came?

Lucifer got jealous and was banished from Heaven, and all of Heaven rejoiced. Lucifer also got a third of the angels to follow him, and it's written that had Yahweh not intervened, Lucifer couldn't have been thrown out and would have taken more angels with him.

Lucifer would not worship the image of God (Adam - remember Adam was created in the image of God) because that image was the created Adam, and he refused to worship a newer creation. Micheal warned him to, but he didn't. Satan has since hated mankind because it was because of mankind's creation that he rebelled against God and was thrown out of Glory. Satan later seduced eve and thus fathered Cain in an attempt to corrupt the bloodline of humanity. (Seed of the woman, seed of the serpent). Why did Jesus tell the pharisee's that they were of their father the devil? The evil bloodline has always sought to persecute and kill the followers of Jesus.

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 12:53
Yes, they are reserved there until the day of judgment. It's in the Scriptures.



I am referring to an event that happened long ago, not in Revelation. Lucifer, the first created of the Archangels rebelled against the Most High. For those that want to know, Lucifer (Satanael) was created first, then Michael, then Gabriel, then Uriel, then Raphael, and then Nathanael and 6,000 other angels. He (Luicifer) wanted his throne to be above Yahweh's. He (Lucifer) also didn't give glory to God for His finest creation, mankind, who was created in God's hand with one grain of dust, one drop of water, a puff of wind, and from fire, heat and warmth. Does not the Bible say our bodies will return to the dust from which we came?

Lucifer got jealous and was banished from Heaven, and all of Heaven rejoiced. Lucifer also got a third of the angels to follow him, and it's written that had Yahweh not intervened, Lucifer couldn't have been thrown out and would have taken more angels with him.

Lucifer would not worship the image of God (Adam - remember Adam was created in the image of God) because that image was the created Adam, and he refused to worship a newer creation. Micheal warned him to, but he didn't. Satan has since hated mankind because it was because of mankind's creation that he rebelled against God and was thrown out of Glory. Satan later seduced eve and thus fathered Cain in an attempt to corrupt the bloodline of humanity. (Seed of the woman, seed of the serpent). Why did Jesus tell the pharisee's that they were of their father the devil? The evil bloodline has always sought to persecute and kill the followers of Jesus.


Where did you pick up this non-sense?

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 13:01
Please quote where this word is used in the book of Job. I am speaking of the text here. Job was written in Hebrew, why would it have a Greek word there?

True Job was written in Hebrew, but amongst other words used to describe hell/hades/sheol, the Greek Septuagint used tartarus. Tarturus isn't found in the Hebrew, only in the Greek translation of the old testament, the Septuagint. Tartarus is called the prison of the fallen angels who sinned during the time of the great flood.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 13:06
But since jsus wasn't born yet, how did they get to where they are without him since they didn't "go through jsus" same with Moses, Abraham, etc..

They knew of the Messiah because they believed in God, even though He wasn't born in the flesh yet. Enoch so pleased God that He just took him right on up to Heaven. Why? God chose to.

Same with the other patriarchs, except when they died they didn't go straight to Heaven. They too went to hades, but not to be tormented like the unrighteous. After Jesus' resurrection, they were taken home.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 13:08
Where did you pick up this non-sense?

You're awful quick to call it nonsense I see! But seeing that you don't go beyond the first five books of the bible, there's not much point in answering your question. The information is out there, you just have to find it.

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 13:09
They knew of the Messiah because they believed in God, even though He wasn't born in the flesh yet. Enoch so pleased God that He just took him right on up to Heaven. Why? God chose to.

Same with the other patriarchs, except when they died they didn't go straight to Heaven. They too went to hades, but not to be tormented like the unrighteous. After Jesus' resurrection, they were taken home.


And you're basing this on??

1 old 0311
08-01-2011, 13:11
The rules of any religion are made by the people who run the church.

If you only need to be a good person to be saved, you don't need a church.

If you don't need a church, you won't contribute money to a church.

The people who run the church are the ones who need your money to live the lifestyle they enjoy. They make the rules.

It's not hard to understand.


EXACTLY. Doesn't matter Catholic, Protestant, Jews, or whatever those Sunday morning TV clowns who rip off the elderly for their life savings. It is ALL about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 13:11
True Job was written in Hebrew, but amongst other words used to describe hell/hades/sheol, the Greek Septuagint used tartarus. Tarturus isn't found in the Hebrew, only in the Greek translation of the old testament, the Septuagint. Tartarus is called the prison of the fallen angels who sinned during the time of the great flood.



In other words, you admit that xtians translation like to ADD well at least someone can admit it. So by changing the word, they clearly try and change the meaning. there is also no such thing as "fallen angels" this is something you borrow from the Gnostics. Angels have no free will. They follow G-d's commandments and carry out his orders. Period.

Vic Hays
08-01-2011, 13:26
In other words, you admit that xtians translation like to ADD well at least someone can admit it. So by changing the word, they clearly try and change the meaning. there is also no such thing as "fallen angels" this is something you borrow from the Gnostics. Angels have no free will. They follow G-d's commandments and carry out his orders. Period.

And you know how angels think? Is it possible that the angels obey God becaause they love Him?

The New Testament gives us some insight into free will. It seems that the angels do have free will. 1/3 of them rebelled.

Revelation 12:7-8 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 13:34
And you know how angels think? Is it possible that the angels obey God becaause they love Him?

The New Testament gives us some insight into free will. It seems that the angels do have free will. 1/3 of them rebelled.

Revelation 12:7-8 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.


Angels have no free will. That quote from Rev is nothing but Gnostic horse manure. Dragons and demons and fallen angels. Pagan concepts.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 13:35
In other words, you admit that xtians translation like to ADD well at least someone can admit it. So by changing the word, they clearly try and change the meaning. there is also no such thing as "fallen angels" this is something you borrow from the Gnostics. Angels have no free will. They follow G-d's commandments and carry out his orders. Period.


No, there are such things as fallen angels. They came to earth in Gen.6 to take earthly wives for themselves since they lusted after them. Being that they lusted, they clearly aren't holy angels.

SDGlock23
08-01-2011, 13:38
Angels have no free will. That quote from Rev is nothing but Gnostic horse manure. Dragons and demons and fallen angels. Pagan concepts.

If angels have no free will how then did Lucifer decide to no follow God's commands? Dragons? Mentioned in the Bible. Demons? Mentioned in the Bible and are the the spirits of the Nephilim that populated the earth pre flood. Fallen angels? 200 of them came to earth to mate with the daughters of man.

FifthFreedom
08-01-2011, 13:41
If angels have no free will how then did Lucifer decide to no follow God's commands? Dragons? Mentioned in the Bible. Demons? Mentioned in the Bible and are the the spirits of the Nephilim that populated the earth pre flood. Fallen angels? 200 of them came to earth to mate with the daughters of man.

A good example of someone who has no earthly idea what they are reading. Lucifer is star of the Morning. jsus called himself the bright morning star (lucifer) it was used in Isaiah referrin to the king of Babylon.

Where were demons mentioned OUTSIDE of the NT?

How about Dragons? Let me guess you think the Nephilim were the product of sex between angels and humans? Please.
Whatever web site you "learn" from, find another one, or maybe another church.

Paul7
08-02-2011, 18:38
Where were demons mentioned OUTSIDE of the NT?


Jupiter himself, supreme ruler of all divinities, was referred to by Homer as a 'demon'.


Leviticus 17:7 - ""They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations."'"
Deuteronomy 32:17 - "They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear."

Psalms 106:37 - "They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,"

ArtificialGrape
08-02-2011, 19:56
Jupiter himself, supreme ruler of all divinities, was referred to by Homer as a 'demon'.

Cool, an admission that the Judeo-Christian bible borrows from earlier mythologies.

-ArtificialGrape

Paul7
08-02-2011, 20:08
Cool, an admission that the Judeo-Christian bible borrows from earlier mythologies.

-ArtificialGrape

No, an admission that spirituality outside of Christ and the Bible is occultism.

ArtificialGrape
08-02-2011, 21:38
No, an admission that spirituality outside of Christ and the Bible is occultism.
By citing Homer... okay.

Ogreon
08-02-2011, 23:23
Cool, an admission that the Judeo-Christian bible borrows from earlier mythologies.

-ArtificialGrape

When making a translation from Hebrew into Greek, it is somewhat difficult to avoid Greek.

Brasso
08-03-2011, 07:00
http://www.tntrevealed.org/qanda.cfm?c=1

FifthFreedom
08-03-2011, 10:03
Jupiter himself, supreme ruler of all divinities, was referred to by Homer as a 'demon'.


Leviticus 17:7 - ""They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations."'"
Deuteronomy 32:17 - "They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear."

Psalms 106:37 - "They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,"


Um, Jpiter is not real LOL. I meant in the Torah.
The word used for "Demon" in Leviticus, do you know what the word is in Hebrew?
Demons are not real any more than Jpiter was real or Ba*l was real or Mlech was real. Gentiles believe in demons. That was the whole point. They were worshipping false gods.

Brasso
08-03-2011, 12:11
I realize that the Book of Enoch isn't part of the Torah, but someone back then believed in demons, or fallen angels.

ArtificialGrape
08-03-2011, 12:12
I find it very interesting to read things like this in the Bible. If only mortal men wrote the Bible, how is it they they had knowledge of Fountains of the Deep? Did they explore the world's oceans with submersible ROVs and witness these fountains of the deep?

Hear is the mention of these Fountains of the Deep in Genesis.
This interpretation after the fact is no more convincing than the contrivances to argue that Nostradamus predicted the rise of Hitler, the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers, etc. There is nothing in the Bible that would not have been known to men in the first century. Much more useful than some mention of fountains of the deep would have been an admonishment to keep your feces away from your food and water sources -- at least that could have saved thousands of lives for centuries.


What I find interesting is about people who profess that they have no faith in something unless they can see it will agree that the wind exists, yet they cannot see it; they only see the evidence of wind, but not wind itself.

As I sit hear writing, there are radio waves travelling through the air and if I turn on a radio, I can hear many stations; yet, I cannot see them, but i have faith that they are there.

Who is it that has "no faith in something unless they can see it"? Many events are detected in ways outside of vision, and predictions can be made and confirmed or rejected without relying on vision. Your faith is not required for the acceptance that radio waves exist -- science has done the work for you.

People put so much "Faith" into science, but in my opinion, they fail to adequately question Science. For instance, Radio Carbon Dating has been around since 1950. Many of our commonly accepted scientific estimates are based on Carbon Dating, yet we have only had 61 years of observation in order to base this forecast.

To put that into simpler terms, let's take a look at a 2 hour movie. That is 120 minutes of 60 seconds per minute at 30 frames a second.

There are 216,000 frames to a 2 hour movie.

If we believe what Science has determined to be the age of the earth to be accurate, approx 4 Billion years old based on a whopping 61 years of observation.

That means that we have only observed 0.000001525% of that 4 Billion years and somehow we think we are in the ballpark on that estimate.

In regards to our 2 hour movie, this equates to 0.003294 of a frame of the movie. Somehow we are supposed to base all of our guesses on the beginning and end of the movie on 0.003294 of a frame of the movie? Really?

Oh, but wait, we do have some known values that have been tested. For instance, manuscripts that are known to be about 2,000 years old.

So now we can observe 0.000049999999999999996% of the Estimated 4 Billion years and draw conclusions upon that... Going back to our movie, that is still only a small fraction of a frame of the movie.
Animal Mother pointed out the flaws in this argument when you raised it on 7/15, but I'll make/reiterate a few points.
Radio carbon dating is not used to measure the age of the earth as its practical age range only goes to about 60,000 years.
Your movie analogy completely falls apart unless your understanding of radiocarbon dating is that scientists have been running a single radiocarbon test for the past 60+ years, then extrapolated the results to 4.54 billion years. Is that your understanding of how it works?

One thing that Science still has yet to prove is how it is that Chaos became Order? I have seen explosions and their effects. I have never seen anything created by some great blast, only destroyed.
First, it has been well explained here that the Big Bang misnomer was (presumably) pejorative of the theory and coined by Fred Hoyle who proposed the alternative steady state theory. The big bang was not an explosion in the TNT sense that people may think of, so your anecdotal observation is not relevant, but a few questions anyway...
Of the explosions that you have witnessed, how many of these did not take place in existing space, but were giving rise to time and space?
How many involved enough mass that gravity would cause the particulates to collapse?
How many of these explosions generated enough heat that not even stable atoms could exist, and that there were free protons, neutrons and electrons?

If I took a wristwatch apart and put it into a bag, how long would I have to shake the bag until the wristwatch fell together?

Do you have faith that the wristwatch would somehow come together over the course of millions of years of being shaken in a bag?
The flaws in Paley's wristwatch, Hoyle's 747 and other teleological arguments are well documented within both biology and cosmology. You're working with the assumption that our human form was the desired end result. What evidence do you have to support this?

Despite the great advances in science, there still is no explanation on how to spawn life into a non-living object. I take pity on those how look at the fascinating structure of DNA or the operations of a living cell and think that all of this somehow evolved out of some other living thing at which no one seems to know how to create life.

Sure, we can take a living cell and manipulate it, but we cannot give anything life. Only the creator can do that.

"No explanation" is a gross misstatement. As I've posted elsewhere...
Urey-Miller demonstrated that within a few days in the lab, an inert mix could give rise to molecules of relevance and complexity. This experiment was initially thought to have produced 4 of 20 amino acids needed to make proteins, but vials that were opened after Miller's death in 2007 contained more than 20 amino acids including the core 20 found in life. Later experiments produced 12 of 20, and an experiment with dilute cyanide produced 7. Clearly it does not require more than a few days in the lab to create some basic building blocks of life.

Since Urey-Miller, 74 amino acids have been found in meteorites including all 20 found in living organisms. This further tells us that there are a variety of atmospheric conditions in the universe capable of producing this building block of life.

Then to get from amino acids to polymers (proteins)... Also in the 1950s Sidney Fox demonstrated that splashing amino acids onto hot, dry volcanic rock instantly produced most of the proteins found in life. Lipids are easier to polymerize into protolife structures that while not living are able to mimic processes similar to bacterial, feeding, excreting and metabolizing starch.

Several mechanisms have been demonstrated for assembling short polymers into longer chains. Zeolites, clay and pyrite are all capable of lining up amino acids which could lead to longer proteins. Pyrite is found in black smokers (http://geology.com/press-release/hydrothermal-vent-pyrite/) which are home to some of the most primitive life on earth -- sulfide-reducing Archaebacteria. This suggests to many scientists that life arose not on the surface of the primordial pond, but in a deep-sea hot spring.

Endosymbiosis can take us from here to eukaryotic cells -- I'm getting tired of typing so I'll try to wrap up. This process is supported by some of today's living transitional forms such as Pelomyxa and Giardia.

So far from proving that abiogenesis is impossible, steps have been demonstrated that would take inorganic material into amino acids to proteins and other polymers to prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells. All the steps are gradual, none require extraordinary circumstances, and none are beyond plausible. Most of the steps can be reproduced in the lab, or are still observed in nature today.

It makes sense to me that all of mankind is wired to know that there is something greater than themselves.
Early man was afraid of the dark, weather, eclipses, death etc., so thousands of gods were created by different societies to explain these things. None of this suggests that your Consoling Proposition is true, and the fact that cultures all over the world created myths to explain the same things further suggests that it is not.

-ArtificialGrape

ArtificialGrape
08-03-2011, 12:36
So do you have a soul or are you just some organic material that was spawned through millions of years of evolution?
While this was directed at Animal Mother, he doesn't generally mind if I join in the fun...
Could you start with what the soul is, and what evidence you have that anybody has a soul?

I am also curious to hear what you think happens when we die.

Well, let's see, we stop breathing, heart and brain function cease along with all other bodily functions, and if we're not found soon enough we start to stink up the place. There's no evidence to support a belief in any notion of heaven or hell. (IPASLOTA)

-ArtificialGrape

Animal Mother
08-03-2011, 13:17
So do you have a soul or are you just some organic material that was spawned through millions of years of evolution? Are the two mutually exclusive? Can you quantify the soul and demonstrate it exists?
I am also curious to hear what you think happens when we die. Decomposition, and if you die in battle, a trip to Valhalla or Folkvangr. Otherwise, it's off to Hel.

FifthFreedom
08-03-2011, 14:17
I realize that the Book of Enoch isn't part of the Torah, but someone back then believed in demons, or fallen angels.

And that is a work "peter" obviouslyt based much of his teaching on but it relies mostly on Gnosticism and Zoroastianism. not Judaism.

THplanes
08-04-2011, 02:28
if you die in battle, a trip to Valhalla or Folkvangr. .

Does either of these involve virgins and if so how many. Too be more specific, hot female virgins.

Brasso
08-04-2011, 08:58
Virgins? Yes, but they must be thrown into the volcano first.

Schabesbert
08-04-2011, 09:05
Virgins? Yes, but they must be thrown into the volcano first.
That would make them "hot."

Ogreon
08-04-2011, 15:13
That would make them "hot."

Bravo! I like it hot.