Is there such a thing as hell? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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frank4570
07-28-2011, 18:51
This was an idea discussed in another thread, so I gave it it's own thread.

It looks to me like hell was a non-jewish idea that fledgling Christians took from other religions in the very early days of Christianity.

Vic Hays
07-28-2011, 19:49
There is Hell in the sense of the grave and the fires that destroy everything at the end of the world.

There is not now a fire burning that tortures people. The fire that burns them will be much hotter and completely destroy them according to the Bible.
Some Christians believe otherwise from some misunderstood Bible texts, but God is fair and just. He is not a monster who enjoys suffering.

Some people do not want to believe the plain texts of the Bible. They must have some agenda or bent to want to believe in a smoldering torture.

Malachi 4: 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this" Says the Lord of hosts.

wrenrj1
07-28-2011, 19:51
According to Southpark there is...

NMG26
07-28-2011, 21:37
This was an idea discussed in another thread, so I gave it it's own thread.

It looks to me like hell was a non-jewish idea that fledgling Christians took from other religions in the very early days of Christianity.


My opinion?

Life in the present is what we are to live for. Not a future heaven or hell.

No one knows if there is anything after this life or not.

If there is something after this life, hell is not probable in any sense of the modern use of it. :fred:

kjm1016
07-28-2011, 21:45
I recall an expression I heard during the first Gulf War referring to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, etc., "This isn't hell.(But you can see it from here!)"

CitizenOfDreams
07-28-2011, 22:09
Hell is other people.

RON in PA
07-29-2011, 02:47
Isn't that New Jersey?

MadMonkey
07-29-2011, 02:55
Yes, it exists. I was there yesterday. I also saw the Washington Monument while I was driving through.

Eric SF
07-29-2011, 03:46
Hell is life in the U.S. under the Obama regime

GreenDrake
07-29-2011, 05:21
Hell is a bad reaction to dinner and no tp in a public restroom.

Mr Jingles
07-29-2011, 07:28
According to the Bible there is an eternal Hell. This has been discussed in the past and usually those using a scripture revert to an obscure old testament verse and try and therefore try to interpret Jesus remarks, and the Apostles to their own obscure understanding. There is eternity in Heaven and eternity in Hell. Actually, a well discussed topic in the New Testament. People are willing to disregard Jesus comments; or those of the Apostles and favor their own rationalizations (or teachings.)

Vic777
07-29-2011, 07:36
No one knows if there is anything after this life or not.
I know, there is nothing, now you know.

achysklic
07-29-2011, 08:14
Well there are 3 different words for "Hell" in the Bible with different meanings. Most protestants only think of hell as a place of torment. This is not the case.

I actually think protestants should be more concerned with heaven,however they are abit confused on this as well since the Bible speaks of atleast 3 heavens.

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 08:16
Isn't that New Jersey?


I think it's in Baltimore. If that isn't Hell, what is?

NMG26
07-29-2011, 08:52
I know, there is nothing, now you know.

You sound just like a Christian.

They "know" there is eternal life either in hell or heaven after you die.

I'm for the eternal in the now. That I can know.

Brasso
07-29-2011, 09:01
Just as the Bible does not say we will spend eternity in heaven, neither does it we'll be tormented for eternity in hell.

Just look at all the false imagery we are fed. We see dead people floating in the clouds like angels, playing harps with halo's.

The Bible is clear that we don't become angels. We don't go anywhere. And we sure as heck don't have Mithra sun disks floating over our heads.

And this is just some of the false ideas we have been giving that aren't taught anywhere in the Bible.

How many paintings of saints does the Catholic Church have of Mary or others with golden orbs around their heads? Pure Mithras crap.

Oh no, there's no paganism in the Church. wink, wink.

eracer
07-29-2011, 09:08
According to the Bible there is an eternal Hell. This has been discussed in the past and usually those using a scripture revert to an obscure old testament verse and try and therefore try to interpret Jesus remarks, and the Apostles to their own obscure understanding. There is eternity in Heaven and eternity in Hell. Actually, a well discussed topic in the New Testament. People are willing to disregard Jesus comments; or those of the Apostles and favor their own rationalizations (or teachings.)How can anyone know?

The Bible is a mythological text altered over the years by revisionist doctrine.

No has ever come back from Hell to describe it.

frank4570
07-29-2011, 09:11
I think it's in Baltimore. If that isn't Hell, what is?

No argument. None.

Vic Hays
07-29-2011, 09:52
According to the Bible there is an eternal Hell. This has been discussed in the past and usually those using a scripture revert to an obscure old testament verse and try and therefore try to interpret Jesus remarks, and the Apostles to their own obscure understanding. There is eternity in Heaven and eternity in Hell. Actually, a well discussed topic in the New Testament. People are willing to disregard Jesus comments; or those of the Apostles and favor their own rationalizations (or teachings.)

The Old and New Testament agree on Hell. There have been and continue to be these interpretations that make Hell a place where people will be tortured unendingly if they don't toe the line. God is not like that. God is fair and just. God is loving and kind. God is willing to forgive. These things do not square with eternal torture.

There are plenty of texts in the New Testament in Jesus words to support my understanding.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet commited things deserving of strip[es, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they ill ask the more.

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

There is a lot made of the words forever and eternal as far as Hell goes. These words were translated from the original that did not necessarily mean unending amounts of time. A match burns until it burns out. This can be the meaning of forever in the original languages. An example might be Sodom and Gomorrah. They burned and the fire is now out. The Bible sts them forth as the example of vengeance from eternal fire.

Jude verse 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 09:55
Jude verse 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



The Eternal is that It came from G-d.
There is no "Hell" in the Tanach. Another example of xtians not knowing what they are reading

Roering
07-29-2011, 11:01
Hell, Gehenna, The Hinnom Valley, Ben Hinnom.

All are the same place if I understand it correctly. When Jesus spoke of hell He spoke of a specific geographical location. In those times it was the city dump. Nasty, smelly, etc. etc. A burning trash heap. It was a nice analogy for the people he was teaching. When Jesus describes hell though he mentions being shut out, in outer darkness. The way I see it there are two states in the afterlife. Either in the presence of God or not in the presence of God. Here on earth we are in His presence although not always known or fully experienced due to our fallen state and all the evil that surrounds us. But to be completely out of His presence would be a state of despair and torment. That is the Hell that Jesus was referring to when using the place of hell as an analogy.

At least that's how I understand it.

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 11:49
Hell, Gehenna, The Hinnom Valley, Ben Hinnom.

All are the same place if I understand it correctly. When Jesus spoke of hell He spoke of a specific geographical location. In those times it was the city dump. Nasty, smelly, etc. etc. A burning trash heap. It was a nice analogy for the people he was teaching. When Jesus describes hell though he mentions being shut out, in outer darkness. The way I see it there are two states in the afterlife. Either in the presence of God or not in the presence of God. Here on earth we are in His presence although not always known or fully experienced due to our fallen state and all the evil that surrounds us. But to be completely out of His presence would be a state of despair and torment. That is the Hell that Jesus was referring to when using the place of hell as an analogy.

At least that's how I understand it.

Actually, it was something he borrowed from the Talmudic Rabbis.

Vic Hays
07-29-2011, 12:09
Actually, it was something he borrowed from the Talmudic Rabbis.

So Jesus knew? Of course he did.

Jesus knew Isaiah too. The worms and fire continue until the wicked are destroyed.

Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from opne Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrance to all flesh."

The idea that these people are in agony does not square with the idea of heaven on earth. The fire and worms do their work and these lost people are desrtroyed. They are called corpses. A corpse is not a living person.

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 12:12
So Jesus knew? Of course he did.

Jesus knew Isaiah too. The worms and fire continue until the wicked are destroyed.

Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from opne Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrance to all flesh."

The idea that these people are in agony does not square with the idea of heaven on earth. The fire and worms do their work and these lost people are desrtroyed. They are called corpses. A corpse is not a living person.


Exactly.

And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me.

Smoker
07-29-2011, 12:42
I knew hell & divorced her 20 yrs ago!!

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 12:44
I knew hell & divorced her 20 yrs ago!!



been there done that myself :rofl:

dbcooper
07-29-2011, 14:06
been there done that myself :rofl:


Me Three:wavey:

barstoolguru
07-29-2011, 14:07
I come home to it every day

FifthFreedom
07-29-2011, 15:15
So if we all done run out and accept jsus, we are all gonna end up married :shocked:

AA#5
07-29-2011, 15:30
Definitely.

Mine started after I said, "I do."

NMG26
07-29-2011, 18:10
The way I see it there are two states in the afterlife. Either in the presence of God or not in the presence of God.


At least that's how I understand it.

Well even the Bible says that "if I go down to the pit of hell, God is there."

Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

On another note.
It makes sense to you that the all mighty, all knowing, everywhere present God, would make billions of souls and let them eternally suffer?

Vic Hays
07-31-2011, 13:32
Well even the Bible says that "if I go down to the pit of hell, God is there."

Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

On another note.
It makes sense to you that the all mighty, all knowing, everywhere present God, would make billions of souls and let them eternally suffer?

The clue is the pit and make my bed. According to Jesus, death is very real. The Bible calls it a sleep because there is a resurrection for everybody, that is they are brought to life.

Some may think that this means everybody will be in the kingdom made new and right by God. There are two judgments. The first is made before the second coming of Jesus Christ and the second is made after. The after judgment is the judgment of damnation. These are the words of Christ Himself. Jesus says the dead are in the graves, not heaven, not hell. Jesus says there are two resurrections.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

frank4570
08-01-2011, 19:01
Ok, no such thing as hell. Glad we got that straightened out.

Vic Hays
08-02-2011, 08:24
Ok, no such thing as hell. Glad we got that straightened out.

Not yet. There will be a lake of fire at the end. notice that it was prepared for the devil and his angels and not man. If you read the rest of that story you will find out why they go there. We understand that the fire is hot enough to destroy whatever goes into it.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

FifthFreedom
08-03-2011, 14:30
Not yet. There will be a lake of fire at the end. notice that it was prepared for the devil and his angels and not man. If you read the rest of that story you will find out why they go there. We understand that the fire is hot enough to destroy whatever goes into it.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yes, it is prepared for the xtian's "other god" the bad one:whistling:

Mister_Beefy
08-03-2011, 17:58
lake of fire, little red devils with pitchforks?

no.

eternal suffering, shame and regret for you sins?

yup.

Vic Hays
08-04-2011, 07:28
lake of fire, little red devils with pitchforks?

no.

eternal suffering, shame and regret for you sins?

yup.

Eternal death, eternal loss, no more thoughts or emotions at all. No more opportunity to have your sins forgiven.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NMG26
08-04-2011, 07:45
Eternal death, eternal loss, no more thoughts or emotions at all. No more opportunity to have your sins forgiven.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Interesting vic that you think that God has to cut His losses rather then getting His desire of all men being saved.

Just seems that the all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present would not need to cut His losses.

As a Christian you three choices are.
1)All live for eternity either in heaven or hell.
2)God cuts His losses and saves a billion and loses a billion.
3)All live for eternity and God never ever gives up on anyone.

I like #3. If I was a Christian.

Vic Hays
08-04-2011, 07:53
Interesting vic that you think that God has to cut His losses rather then getting His desire of all men being saved.

Just seems that the all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present would not need to cut His losses.

As a Christian you three choices are.
1)All live for eternity either in heaven or hell.
2)God cuts His losses and saves a billion and loses a billion.
3)All live for eternity and God never ever gives up on anyone.

I like #3. If I was a Christian.

#2 is the reality revealed in the Bible.

Hebrews 6:7-8 For as the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God, but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

NMG26
08-04-2011, 07:57
#2 is the reality revealed in the Bible.

Hebrews 6:7-8 For as the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God, but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


So the sect of thought goes.

This just seems very much like mans way.
Man is limited and must choose to cut their losses.
Man makes God in man's image.
Makes sense.

Mister_Beefy
08-04-2011, 10:32
Eternal death, eternal loss, no more thoughts or emotions at all. No more opportunity to have your sins forgiven.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


spiritual death


no more thoughts or emotions at all.

where does it say this in the bible?

Vic Hays
08-04-2011, 13:16
spiritual death


no more thoughts or emotions at all.

where does it say this in the bible?

There are a number of places in a number of ways.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 But to him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.

This is consistent with Jesus teaching on death. It is the living that know what is happening. That is why there are two resurrections.

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-those who have done good, to thje resurrection of life, and those who havwe done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

juggy4711
08-06-2011, 15:29
I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the Bible'. What good is reading the Bible if you don’t have two days and two Rabbis to find out what it means after you read the Bible. :whistling:

Seriously though I use to think the only difference between Christianity and Judaism was that Jews didn't think Jesus was the son of God. Imagine my surprise to find out the is no hell, Satan isn't a bad guy and that they don't believe in proselytizing.

I'd love to learn more about the OT from the Jewish perspective but have been informed that because I'm not Jewish, and since they frown on conversion, I'm not likely to find a Rabbi willing to spend their time doing it.

muscogee
08-06-2011, 21:09
There are 2 of them. I understand they are nice places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway

Vic Hays
08-06-2011, 21:14
[QUOTE=juggy4711;17738360]I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the Bible'. What good is reading the Bible if you don’t have two days and two Rabbis to find out what it means after you read the Bible. :whistling:

QUOTE]

If you want to study the Bible check out this site:



http://www.amazingfacts.org/

GreenDrake
08-07-2011, 05:02
There are 2 of them. I understand they are nice places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway

Been to Hell, Norway, did a CAX operation with several countries there, cold weather training....dang cold.

achysklic
08-07-2011, 05:26
[QUOTE=juggy4711;17738360]I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the Bible'. What good is reading the Bible if you don’t have two days and two Rabbis to find out what it means after you read the Bible. :whistling:

QUOTE]

If you want to study the Bible check out this site:



http://www.amazingfacts.org/


Bad advice Vic....

If you want to study the Bible, don't use any denominational site. Just pray to God to give you understanding through the Holy Spirit and read the Bible.

People think you know the Bible pretty well Vic, and at first glance you seem to. Upon further digging it is obvious you know SDA teachings well and little about the Bible. You are prob. the easiest to prove wrong on here simply because all one needs to do is study SDA teaching and compare them with actual scripture in doing this it's always easy to see where your next move is comming from before you type it...:)

Vic Hays
08-07-2011, 06:16
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17740092]


Bad advice Vic....

If you want to study the Bible, don't use any denominational site. Just pray to God to give you understanding through the Holy Spirit and read the Bible.

People think you know the Bible pretty well Vic, and at first glance you seem to. Upon further digging it is obvious you know SDA teachings well and little about the Bible. You are prob. the easiest to prove wrong on here simply because all one needs to do is study SDA teaching and compare them with actual scripture in doing this it's always easy to see where your next move is comming from before you type it...:)


Ache

If you would read, juggy4711 was looking for some human help.

There is nothing wrong with this. The Bible even records human help in understanding the Bible.

Acts 8:30-31 So Philipbran to him, and heard him reading from the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

Blessings to youi

Arc Angel
08-07-2011, 06:18
Hell is other people.

Why not quote the original source! 'L'enfer, c'est les autres.' - Jean-Paul Sartre

Yes, there's a Hell. (You're standing in the middle of it, right now.)

'Gehenna' = (1) The valley where, 'Jerusalem's garbage' used to be dumped. (2) The consequence(s) of having led a (spiritually) wasted life.

'Hell' = (1) Any state-of-being, or form of conscious existence, devoid of either the direct presence or immediate influence of God. (2) Anywhere under the direct control and sovereignty of Satan the devil.

(Again, exactly where you never want to find yourself!)

achysklic
08-07-2011, 06:50
[QUOTE=achysklic;17740921]


Ache

If you would read, juggy4711 was looking for some human help.

There is nothing wrong with this. The Bible even records human help in understanding the Bible.

Acts 8:30-31 So Philipbran to him, and heard him reading from the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

Blessings to youi nothing wrong with human help vic as long as the source used is the bible and not a site promoting a denomination.

Paul7
08-07-2011, 20:23
[QUOTE=achysklic;17740921]


Ache

If you would read, juggy4711 was looking for some human help.

There is nothing wrong with this. The Bible even records human help in understanding the Bible.

Acts 8:30-31 So Philipbran to him, and heard him reading from the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

Blessings to youi

Vic, it's amazing that you think when the Bible refers to eternal life for believers, it means heavan for eternity, but when it says eternal life for the lost, it doesn't.

Vic Hays
08-07-2011, 22:16
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17741038]

Vic, it's amazing that you think when the Bible refers to eternal life for believers, it means heavan for eternity, but when it says eternal life for the lost, it doesn't.

Paul

I have found, perish, torment, contempt, death, but never eternal life for the lost. Please find that verse for me that promises eternal life to the lost.

Paul7
08-08-2011, 07:10
[QUOTE=Paul7;17744697]

Paul

I have found, perish, torment, contempt, death, but never eternal life for the lost. Please find that verse for me that promises eternal life to the lost.

If you've never seen 'eternal' in relation to the lost, you're not looking.

http://carm.org/hell-eternal

Why would the fire be eternal if the lost have already been destroyed?

Vic Hays
08-08-2011, 08:26
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17745249]

Why would the fire be eternal if the lost have already been destroyed?

So you didn't find the text that promised the lost eternal life? That is because the wages of sin is death.

It is quite understandable that there would be confusion on this point of eternal fire. The answer is that the words translated as eternal and everlasting do not mean unending as they do in English, but the effects of this eternal fire certainly are unending.

There are a number of Bible texts that point this out and I want to make it clear that the important thing is not to color the Bible with our own emotions or cultural bias.

For example,Sodom is not burning now, but it is the Bible example of the effects of eternal fire.

Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

There are also enopugh texts that spell out what the eternal fire does. For example:

Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day That I do this," Says the Lord of hosts.

What was it He will do?

Malachi 4:1 "For behold the day is coming, Burning like an oven. And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming will burn them up." Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch."

Yes, there will be a fire, but much hotter than those who think that people will be smoldering while God gloats over their misery and pain endlessly. My God is not like that. Is yours?

Paul7
08-08-2011, 09:23
[QUOTE=Paul7;17746092]

So you didn't find the text that promised the lost eternal life?

Yes, there were many in the link. Did you read it?

It is quite understandable that there would be confusion on this point of eternal fire. The answer is that the words translated as eternal and everlasting do not mean unending as they do in English, but the effects of this eternal fire certainly are unending.

But it means eternal when talking about believers? That makes no sense.

There are a number of Bible texts that point this out and I want to make it clear that the important thing is not to color the Bible with our own emotions or cultural bias.

As I would say to you.

Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Yes, eternal fire, as I've been saying.

Yes, there will be a fire, but much hotter than those who think that people will be smoldering while God gloats over their misery and pain endlessly. My God is not like that. Is yours?

He won't be gloating, He doesn't wish that any should perish, but allows those who don't want to be with Him to do so.

achysklic
08-08-2011, 09:59
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17746379]

Yes, there were many in the link. Did you read it?

.


This is one of the things that bothers me alot about Vic, He just post SDA tracks, and never read what other post on here to the point that you have to repeat everything 10 times.

This is very disrespectful when trying to have a discussion.

Arc Angel
08-08-2011, 10:15
...... It is quite understandable that there would be confusion on this point of eternal fire. The answer is that the words translated as eternal and everlasting do not mean unending as they do in English, but the effects of this eternal fire certainly are unending. ......

That's very perceptive of you; and you are correct; however, I don't think the subject is as well explained as it might, otherwise, be; AND, for my own part, I have no particular interest in explaining the topic any further, myself. Good job, though! :)

Vic Hays
08-08-2011, 13:16
[QUOTE=Paul7;17746635][QUOTE=Vic Hays;17746379]

Yes, there were many in the link. Did you read it?

But it means eternal when talking about believers? That makes no sense.

QUOTE]

I have been over this stuff many times over the years.

I have been impressed on some other threads that you are a pretty good historian. You will find that this idea of eternal life in hell and the immortal soul are not Christian, but came into some parts of Christianity through pagan and philosophical influence.

Thank you for being willing to put aside your bias and examine this from a Biblical perspective.

I want to answer the question about eternal life for believers.

1. Only God has immortality

I Timothy 6:15-16 .............He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen

2. Immortality is conditioned upon being in a correct relationship with God. It is a gift to His believing children. Adam lost it. Jesus made it posssible for us to regain it.

It was necessary to remove the tree of life so that Adam would not be immortal.

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

It was necessary for Jesus to be given to restore immortality to mankind that choose to be in a right relationship with God.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Again, the everlasting life is conditional and does not mean unending. It will last as long as a believer is in right relationship with God.

juggy4711
08-08-2011, 16:23
Appreciate the effort Vic but I want to learn more about the OT so I would prefer to do so from those most likely to have the best understanding of it.

Vic Hays
08-08-2011, 19:16
Appreciate the effort Vic but I want to learn more about the OT so I would prefer to do so from those most likely to have the best understanding of it.

When Herod asked where the Messiah was to be born the scribes knew, but they sent no one to seek Him.

There have been two temples in Jerusalem. Solomon's temple destroyed by the Babylonians and the temple destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans. The Messiah was to come to the second temple. Even though the second temple was inferior in splendor to Solomon's temple it was to be more glorious because the desire of all nations was to come there. The long awaited saviour of the Jewish people. They missed Him.

If you want to study the Bible with them, certainly they know a lot about the Bible, but they have a bias against Christianity. They do not want to admit that Jesus could possibly be the one they should have accepted.

Haggai 2:3-9 "Who is left among you who saw this temple in its former glory? And how do you see it now? In comparison with it, is this not in your eyes as nothing? Yet now be strong , Zerubbabel, says the Lord and be strong, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, says the Lord, and work, for I am with you, says the Lord of hosts. According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you, do not fear! " For thus says the Lord of hosts: "Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of all Nations and I will fill this temple with glory," says the Lord of hosts. "The silver is Mine, and the Gold is mine," says the Lord of hosts. "The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former," says the Lord of Hosts. "And in this place I will give peace," says the Lord of hosts."

The glory was greater because Jesus taught there at that temple. He gives peace to those who seek Him.

Diesel McBadass
08-08-2011, 20:36
Hell is like santa clause for grown ups. Give you an incentive to do good over wrong. Problem with religions to me is that they are interpreted literally. The bible is full of moral messages, but is not all 100% fact. Its the most edited book in history, you can learn valuable lessons but just because its on paper in a book doesn't make it a fact.

frank4570
08-08-2011, 22:51
I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the Bible'. What good is reading the Bible if you don’t have two days and two Rabbis to find out what it means after you read the Bible. :whistling:
I know what you mean.
Seriously though I use to think the only difference between Christianity and Judaism was that Jews didn't think Jesus was the son of God. Imagine my surprise to find out the is no hell, Satan isn't a bad guy and that they don't believe in proselytizing.
I was surprised too. Shocked really. And more shocked by the number of fire and brimstone christians who are actually clueless about their religion. I would actually say that christianity took the core beliefs of jews turned them upside down.

I'd love to learn more about the OT from the Jewish perspective but have been informed that because I'm not Jewish, and since they frown on conversion, I'm not likely to find a Rabbi willing to spend their time doing it.

You may have better luck asking for reading resources.

Vic Hays
08-08-2011, 23:01
I was surprised too. Shocked really. And more shocked by the number of fire and brimstone christians who are actually clueless about their religion. I would actually say that christianity took the core beliefs of jews turned them upside down.



There is a truth. Just because there are many who have swallowed fairy tales does not mean that everyone has. In fact, it just shows that there are forces working to confuse people so they don't know the truth.
Trying to teach the truth right out of the Bible leads to the strongest opposition.
Do you want to know the Truth?

frank4570
08-08-2011, 23:26
There is a truth. Just because there are many who have swallowed fairy tales does not mean that everyone has. In fact, it just shows that there are forces working to confuse people so they don't know the truth.
Trying to teach the truth right out of the Bible leads to the strongest opposition.
Do you want to know the Truth?

I think you are very badly outnumbered by christians who disagree with you.

Vic Hays
08-09-2011, 07:26
I think you are very badly outnumbered by christians who disagree with you.

I agree. Truth has never been popuplar. I strive to understand the Bible without bias. I want to know Truth.

Jesus said something about this:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there be few who find it."

FifthFreedom
08-09-2011, 11:06
I'd love to learn more about the OT from the Jewish perspective but have been informed that because I'm not Jewish, and since they frown on conversion, I'm not likely to find a Rabbi willing to spend their time doing it.



Who told you this?

janice6
08-09-2011, 11:07
Yes.....If you are a conservative, you are in it.

frank4570
08-09-2011, 19:12
Who told you this?

I also seem to remember that jews frown on conversion. Is that not true?

FifthFreedom
08-10-2011, 07:09
I also seem to remember that jews frown on conversion. Is that not true?

We don't "frown" on conversion. We typically only look for sincere converts, so they are not usually taken on right away. It is a way to test a person's resolve. Also, converting to Judaism is harder than say, converting to xtianity. It involves a lot of study and Judaism is clearly not for everyone, it involves changing one's life in so many ways, a lot of people who aren't serious will fall out if they are not dedicated, so why waste time unless we know the person has a sincere desire to take on the Mitzvot?

frank4570
08-10-2011, 19:13
We don't "frown" on conversion. We typically only look for sincere converts, so they are not usually taken on right away. It is a way to test a person's resolve. Also, converting to Judaism is harder than say, converting to xtianity. It involves a lot of study and Judaism is clearly not for everyone, it involves changing one's life in so many ways, a lot of people who aren't serious will fall out if they are not dedicated, so why waste time unless we know the person has a sincere desire to take on the Mitzvot?

Ok, that's a fair enough distinction.

FifthFreedom
08-11-2011, 06:59
When Herod asked where the Messiah was to be born the scribes knew, but they sent no one to seek Him.

There have been two temples in Jerusalem. Solomon's temple destroyed by the Babylonians and the temple destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans. The Messiah was to come to the second temple. Even though the second temple was inferior in splendor to Solomon's temple it was to be more glorious because the desire of all nations was to come there. The long awaited saviour of the Jewish people. They missed Him.




I guess in spite of the fact that the scriptures relate that he will be accepted by all of them when he comes :whistling:

Vic Hays
08-11-2011, 08:54
I guess in spite of the fact that the scriptures relate that he will be accepted by all of them when he comes :whistling:


Only by the elect. There were false accusations circulating about Paul even back then.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for law. But they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are amongh the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk accoeding to the customs.

FifthFreedom
08-11-2011, 08:57
Only by the elect. There were false accusations circulating about Paul even back then.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for law. But they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are amongh the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk accoeding to the customs.


Here go the NT authors INVENTING again. Where in the Tanach says the Messiah will "Only be accepted by the elect?"

Who the Hell are these "elect" anyway? Another NT invention. Our Prophets teach the entire house of Israel will be restored.

Vic Hays
08-11-2011, 15:38
Here go the NT authors INVENTING again. Where in the Tanach says the Messiah will "Only be accepted by the elect?"

Who the Hell are these "elect" anyway? Another NT invention. Our Prophets teach the entire house of Israel will be restored.

I thought you said there was no "Hell".

Your Prophets teach that only a remnant will return. They are the elect. You yourself know that just because a person is a Jew is no guarantee that their heart is right with God.

Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them will return, The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

jdavionic
08-11-2011, 16:07
Is there such a thing as hell?

Why bother asking? Obviously the answer can only be accurately answered by some who died and went there to confirm that 'yes, it does exist". Since everyone here is alive (sort of), then you cannot get a definite answer...only opinions based on an individual's beliefs, which will range from "no" to "yes".

FifthFreedom
08-11-2011, 18:13
I thought you said there was no "Hell".

Your Prophets teach that only a remnant will return. They are the elect. You yourself know that just because a person is a Jew is no guarantee that their heart is right with God.

Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them will return, The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.


Isaiah 10:22 is referring to our return from the Assyrian captivity. Are you deliberately misrepresenting the scriptures or are you just honestly ignorant of what they mean? It has nothing to to with any "elect" of the Messianic age.

Paul7
08-11-2011, 18:15
Here go the NT authors INVENTING again. Where in the Tanach says the Messiah will "Only be accepted by the elect?"

Who the Hell are these "elect" anyway? Another NT invention. Our Prophets teach the entire house of Israel will be restored.

Does the OT invent, FF?

FifthFreedom
08-11-2011, 18:26
Does the OT invent, FF?

Another stupid question. Stop asking questions till you learn how to answer them. And try doing so without Wiki. LOL

Vic Hays
08-11-2011, 19:13
Is there such a thing as hell?

Why bother asking? Obviously the answer can only be accurately answered by some who died and went there to confirm that 'yes, it does exist". Since everyone here is alive (sort of), then you cannot get a definite answer...only opinions based on an individual's beliefs, which will range from "no" to "yes".


Jesus answered the questions. The Bible has the answers.

There is no hell now. The lost will be destroyed after they are judged.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Paul7
08-12-2011, 17:22
Another stupid question. Stop asking questions till you learn how to answer them. And try doing so without Wiki. LOL

I didn't mention Wiki, you must have it on the brain. It is useful for taking the air out of your sails.

Paul7
08-12-2011, 17:24
Jesus answered the questions. The Bible has the answers.

There is no hell now. The lost will be destroyed after they are judged.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Yes, that's how Satan's army will be destroyed. You ignore the following verse, Rev. 20:10

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfer, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

jdavionic
08-12-2011, 17:37
Jesus answered the questions. The Bible has the answers.

There is no hell now. The lost will be destroyed after they are judged.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Yes...that's one belief. However this question will get batted back & forth without resolution because it's just that...it boils down to your beliefs.

Vic Hays
08-12-2011, 22:28
Yes, that's how Satan's army will be destroyed. You ignore the following verse, Rev. 20:10

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfer, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Remember, the forever and ever does not mean unending.

This is like taking the verse translated three days and three nights and making a Wednesday crucifixion out of it and exactly 72 hours in the tomb.

The scripture is quite consistent really.

Vic Hays
08-12-2011, 22:29
Yes...that's one belief. However this question will get batted back & forth without resolution because it's just that...it boils down to your beliefs.

If one believes in error it does not change the Truth. The Bible is the standard.