Shooting through a car windshield [Archive] - Glock Talk

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packsaddle
08-05-2011, 10:21
Anyone have data on how trajectory is affected by shooting through a car windshield?

Was wondering how the angle and thickness of the windshield affects trajectory, speed, expansion, etc.

Don't want to debate tactics, just curious about it.

Thanks, in advance.

Angry Fist
08-05-2011, 10:24
If they issue 10mm, don't worry about it. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk


That's gotta hurt.


.

smokeross
08-05-2011, 10:32
Not sure, but the gang bangers that looked down the barrel of my .45 through the windshield of my car in Anchorage didn't want ti find out.:wow::wow::wow:

GioaJack
08-05-2011, 10:52
Back when we carried 158 grain RN .38's had an occasion to fire a round head on at a subject sitting in the front seat. Round plowed a trough up the windshield and gouged the aluminum trim at the top. Never came close to penetrating.

After we changed to 158 grain LSWCHP's fired through the passenger side corner of my unit's windshield from the driver's seat. Round passed through without a problem and left a relatively small hole. I imagine the angle had a lot to do with it.

There were some higher-ups in the department who were not particularly amused.


Jack

A6Gator
08-05-2011, 11:10
Anyone have data on how trajectory is affected by shooting through a car windshield?

Was wondering how the angle and thickness of the windshield affects trajectory, speed, expansion, etc.

Don't want to debate tactics, just curious about it.

Thanks, in advance.

You talking inside/out or outside/in?

DaBigBR
08-05-2011, 11:15
I don't think you're going to see any hard data. There are just too many variables. Bonded ammunition is almost a must for bullet integrity and weight retention through windshield glass. They had a rep from ATK come to my firearms instructor school and demo some of that stuff. Seemed like your best bet any time you're shooting through a windshield was either a) shooting a big enough hole in it that you can shoot through said hole or b) going with something heavy, like a slug.

Sam Spade
08-05-2011, 11:51
The round angles towards the perpendicular. Shooting out goes up, shooting in goes down. How much it deviates depends on the angle and such. I have had .40 FMJ go a foot and a half high fron driver's seat to front bumper (aimed belt, hit neck on a TQ21).

The bonded bullets still deflect. Their advantage is in not separating out the jacket and retaining more weight for the impact.

collim1
08-05-2011, 12:03
I don't think you're going to see any hard data. There are just too many variables. Bonded ammunition is almost a must for bullet integrity and weight retention through windshield glass. They had a rep from ATK come to my firearms instructor school and demo some of that stuff. Seemed like your best bet any time you're shooting through a windshield was either a) shooting a big enough hole in it that you can shoot through said hole or b) going with something heavy, like a slug.

This is what my very unscientific results have been like. Sitting in the car and firing through the windshield at a B27.

First round is no gaurantee, but any rounds fired where the glass is spiderwebbed from the first would hit POA.

Unfortunately we only had two junkers to work with so you only got about 3 "first shot" simulations from each windshield before it was spent.

I guess the best rule is keep putting rounds on target.

packsaddle
08-05-2011, 13:02
Thanks, guys.

So, sitting in your unit shooting out, it sounds like first shot should be held lower than intended target with subsequent shots held directly on intended target.

Hope to never find myself in such a predicament but always good to know the physics involved.

The-Fly
08-05-2011, 13:09
this may answer your questions...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Morris
08-05-2011, 13:23
Just got done with a Vehicle Tactics class including shooting through the windshield. I'll post my thoughts later.

Yes, put quite a few rifle and handgun rounds through the windshields of some donated cars.

smokeross
08-05-2011, 14:07
Loved shooting up abandoned cars when I was young. .22's, shotguns,
large revolvers, mini 14's. Pretty amazing what a .22 can do. Another fun thing was to tape a flashlight to the barrel and go to the local dump at night shooting rats.

Steve in PA
08-05-2011, 16:01
this may answer your questions...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm



Read this several months ago. Very interesting info.

Milltown
08-05-2011, 19:34
Buy yourself one of these and you won't have an issue.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/Labrador6029/Beowulf/036.jpg

fatfred
08-05-2011, 19:37
The FBI did an exhaustive study on this shortly after the Miami shoot out. The guy that did it was an agent who was a total ballistics nerd and really intelligent. The study was
posted on the FBI web site at one time. Shortly after the FBI adopted the 10mm.

walkin' trails
08-05-2011, 20:06
General rule of thumb is that for a handgun, bullet fired out of a handgun, the bullet will be dragged down approximately two inches when fired from the outside aiming at a target inside. When fired from the inside, the bullet will drag up approximately two inches, unless the muzzle is placed directly against the glass; which incidently will likely also cause the pistol to malfunction. High velocity rounds, such as rifles will generally stay relatively true to point of aim, at least as far as I've seen. Just remember the mechanical offset of the sights when firing an AR at close range. I fired into a windshield with an AR loaded with 62 grain Federal bonded soft points. I forgot the mechanical offset and the round hit two inchese low - right in line with the steering wheel. Steering wheels apparently have a pretty stout piece of spring steel inside and the bullet basically hit the steel and vaporized. The target inside got a lot of small fragments in the "face," but that was about it. The next rounds were on target after taking the sighting into consideration. Its best to take an old car to a range and spend some quality time seeing where your bullets go when fired into a car. Remember also that for the past several years, most cars have steel beams in the doors which may stop the penetration of some rounds. I noted that the same Fed 223 SP that vaporized on the steering wheel also would penetrate clear through a 1980s GM midsized car about half the time.

glockurai
08-05-2011, 20:30
I've shot from within a vehicle (training), through the windshield, and had no problems hitting where I was aiming at, center mass. Ammo used was 45ACP GD 200gr +p.

MSP Sarge
08-06-2011, 21:54
This is what happened to me. I was in a gun battle with a suspect that was on the hood of my cruiser and me standing behind the cruiser. I fired two rounds of 9mm through the back window. One penetrated the back window, through the front window and struck suspect in the chect. The other round went into the dash. The round that hit the suspect hit hard enough to stop the gun fight for a few moments, though this was the second round that had him out of three.

I have some photographs if you need them.

Keep in mind this was in 1985 and I was using Winchester Silver Tips. Thats all we had and was approved at the time.

Gary

PROSOUTH
08-07-2011, 13:49
Thanks, guys.

So, sitting in your unit shooting out, it sounds like first shot should be held lower than intended target with subsequent shots held directly on intended target.

Hope to never find myself in such a predicament but always good to know the physics involved.

I can attest to the method and it working. Myself and another of my officers were involved in a pursuit and FOIS on Jan 26th 2009. I shot out through the passenger window with no deflection and my other officer was shooting through the windshield from behind with no noticable alteration of bullet path for either of us.

The subject was struck center mass by myself and four times in the extremities by the other officer. The officer the subject was pointing his weapon at was me. It was believed he was waiting for me to get out and pass the A pillar to fire.

When shooting out of a vehicle the glass creates little deviation, however our training showed that the bullet entering a windshield can deflect downward slightly unless there is a great enough degree of tilt to the glass to cause a possible deflection upward.

January 26, 2009
A Murfreesboro man is dead following a shooting on Interstate 24 in Manchester early Monday morning (1/26/09). It began with a 911 call from a woman who said that her ex-husband was chasing her in his truck and was possibly armed. Coffee County deputies chased the pickup truck through Manchester’s industrial park and out onto I-24. Deputies put down spike strips on the interstate, but the suspect swerved and aimed the truck toward a Manchester policeman. The officer jumped back and shot the suspect’s rear tire. It blew and he pulled to the side of the road near mile marker 114.
The video camera in the deputies’ cars, shows Terry Cohen Meadors getting out of his truck and aim a 9-mm handgun at the three deputies. Coffee County Sheriff Steve Graves said, “They did exactly as taught in the Law Enforcement Academy.” He was referring to the fact that the deputies stayed in their cruisers and fired through the window. The sheriff commented, “Meadors was probably waiting for them to get out before he fired. They however did exactly what they were trained to do.” The 50-year old male was pronounced deceased at the scene. This took place around 6:30 Monday morning.
According to Sheriff Graves, Deputies James O’Neal and Daryn Gadeken have been placed on routine administrative leave with pay pending the outcome of the investigation. Meadors ex-wife had an order of protection against him. In addition, she earlier obtained an arrest warrants that charged her ex-husband with vandalism and harassment. A check of Meadors’ criminal background shows that he was arrested several times on aggravated assault and assault charges. Back in 1992 he was convicted to two-years in the state penitentiary on a criminal attempt of kidnapping conviction.

use2b6L32
08-07-2011, 16:09
Any links to the video, Prosouth?

Great job, BTW!

lndshark
08-07-2011, 17:47
The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Training Bureau has a great, albeit older, training video on shooting through window glass. It's been a while since I've seen it but if you're interested I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy.

PROSOUTH
08-07-2011, 19:38
Any links to the video, Prosouth?

Great job, BTW!

Sorry, video not available

The story goes that he ended up on the emergency lane, I wound up getting stopped in the hammer lane directly across from him and Daryn was between us with his front end even with my passenger rear door. He was shooting through his passenger side windshield and I took an aimed shot through my passenger window at him maybe 15 feet away and his spine was severed. Daryn hit him four times in the arms.

nelsone
08-07-2011, 20:42
this may answer your questions...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

You beat me to it!
Long story short, shooting out-to-in a 9mm deflects downward a lot, a .40 deflects about half as much, and a .45 goes pretty much to point of aim.

Morris
08-07-2011, 22:10
In the training I had, we used smaller sedans and compacts with clean windshields. Every shot that was taken, initial plus two or three shots would deflect. Targets were placed at the front bumper of each car. Depending on the caliber and type (ball versus HP), the lighter loads deflected farther.

I was shooting .40 ball, 180gn loads. My rounds were consistently deflecting to the left by 8 inches. After the hole and glass weakened/opened, then the shots were on target. A partner shooting c Colt Commando with 75gn loads had no sizeable deflection when firing.

Year ago, I did a training class for my officers where we used various donated windshields set up at the common 30 and 45 degrees. They fired loads through the windshields from out to in to a simulated seated bad guy and the deflection issues were glaring, many sloping up.

Windshield tests are fun. Your local windshield shops will often donate cracked windshields if you want to do any work with them.

PROSOUTH
08-08-2011, 07:13
Shooting out of my car through the windows seemed to be a surprise to the subject I was involved with.

In a traffic stop who controls it? They do. Yes you may activate the lights but the subject decides if and or when he wants to stop, flee and usually where or what the position of the stop is. When he pulls over or a pursuit technique ends it he is still the first to stop and usually has the first foot to hit the ground. In most cases they have the advantage on us.

In my FOIS the subject stopped where he decided, was the first stopped, had the first foot to the ground and was out and aiming his weapon at me as I slid in. However for some reason his mentality was that he was going to have to wait until I got out of the unit to engage and I believe he was waiting for me to exit and pass the A-pillar. I was trained to engage at first opportunity and shooting from inside the unit out through the glass allows me to play catch-up. We got the first shots. I still remember the look of surprise on my shooters face when we unloaded on him.

One more tid-bit of info. My shooting was not made with my primary weapon, but a back-up weapon I keep in my console. My unit has a console and seat belt that are not user friendly to drawing a service weapon from a duty belt, so I carry a Glock 30 in my console for quick access. On this day I pulled the back-up gun from the console as I was sliding in to a stop and made the shot with it.

I have had officers tell me that they draw their weapon prior to a pursuits end to have it in their hand or lap ready to fire and yet not knowing how long the pursuit will last or what they may encounter. I usually have my two hands full with a steering wheel and a radio mic. I always wondered what you would do if somehow you dropped your weapon or lost it in the finally of the pursuit while trying to control the unit? I'd hate to be there empty handed and looking for my weapon. I believe in an accessible back-up and it secured to access immediately upon need.

My unit back-up weapon is a Glock 30 that allows me to have a combined usage of magazines with my Glock 21's mags on my belt and the extra three I carry in the drivers door pocket.

vanilla_gorilla
08-09-2011, 07:24
One more tid-bit of info. My shooting was not made with my primary weapon, but a back-up weapon I keep in my console. My unit has a console and seat belt that are not user friendly to drawing a service weapon from a duty belt, so I carry a Glock 30 in my console for quick access. On this day I pulled the back-up gun from the console as I was sliding in to a stop and made the shot with it.

I have had officers tell me that they draw their weapon prior to a pursuits end to have it in their hand or lap ready to fire and yet not knowing how long the pursuit will last or what they may encounter. I usually have my two hands full with a steering wheel and a radio mic. I always wondered what you would do if somehow you dropped your weapon or lost it in the finally of the pursuit while trying to control the unit? I'd hate to be there empty handed and looking for my weapon. I believe in an accessible back-up and it secured to access immediately upon need.



I have given considerable thought to this. At my size, a Crown Vic just isn't conducive to a fast or simple draw, with or without the seatbelt. I have to nearly contort like a circus performer. I've been thinking more and more about this same tactic.

My wife says she doesn't understand, but that's because she's half my size. :upeyes: She fits just fine in her patrol car.

DaBigBR
08-09-2011, 10:34
I have had officers tell me that they draw their weapon prior to a pursuits end to have it in their hand or lap ready to fire and yet not knowing how long the pursuit will last or what they may encounter. I usually have my two hands full with a steering wheel and a radio mic. I always wondered what you would do if somehow you dropped your weapon or lost it in the finally of the pursuit while trying to control the unit? I'd hate to be there empty handed and looking for my weapon. I believe in an accessible back-up and it secured to access immediately upon need.

This happened to a couple of agents in the Miami shootout. I just cannot come up with a good reason to unholster the gun while engaged in a pursuit...coming to a stop, bailing out, whatever else, I see how the process would start, but taking that gun out of the holster while bombing down the road is just a **** sandwich waiting to happen.

PROSOUTH
08-09-2011, 15:05
This happened to a couple of agents in the Miami shootout. I just cannot come up with a good reason to upholster the gun while engaged in a pursuit...coming to a stop, bailing out, whatever else, I see how the process would start, but taking that gun out of the holster while bombing down the road is just a **** sandwich waiting to happen.

And without an accessible Unit BUG it is another Club Brown Sandwich when you do get stopped trying to access a weapon. I believe my unit was still rocking from the stop when I had to shoot and my opponent was already out and had drawn down on me.

I presently have an old SS II holster screwed to my console in an recessed cavity that covers with a bandanna laid over it, not as secure as I would like but not visible. It has saved my butter once already, I started doing this because of idiots running up to my units door window or from the rear to my window and my not having a good visual on them. I wanted to have something readily avaiable for my hand until I can decide if it is friend, foe or idiot.

I'm in process of changing units and I have a locking security box that I plan on using to store the BUG when I'm 10-07 and it will also be used as my arm rest.

Another thing that helps is that my offset seatbelt bracket puts my seatbelt back on the outside of the seat giving my body three more inches of room and my spine relief by letting me sit straight in the seat. If I do have to draw from my belt this all helps. I'm 6'1" and 235 and I fill up a seat pretty good and having a console such as mine takes away a lot of access.

Just talked to our set-up guy today and he is going to order my new radio & console tomorrow. Haven't decided what to get yet but I want a short length radio / siren console.

The unit I just picked up has not had the seat belt moved and man what a difference there is in it and my present unit.

Magicmanmb
08-10-2011, 11:55
When dinosaurs roamed the earth /38 special & 357 mag skipped up the front/
At that time pre 10mm .45acp & 44special were about it. Now I would think .357 sig, maybe some loadings of .40sw & the 10mm

1 old 0311
08-10-2011, 13:35
If they issue 10mm, don't worry about it. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk


That's gotta hurt.


.


Now THAT is a scientific test.:whistling::whistling:

BamaTrooper
08-10-2011, 18:34
Thanks, guys.

So, sitting in your unit shooting out, it sounds like first shot should be held lower than intended target with subsequent shots held directly on intended target.

Hope to never find myself in such a predicament but always good to know the physics involved.

Buy some broken windshields from a glass company and do your own tests.

Morris
08-10-2011, 22:30
Buy some broken windshields from a glass company and do your own tests.

Most will give them to you for free if you ask for testing (keeps them out of their own dumpsters). My local Safelite gave me a dozen windshields for testing. I had the chief send back a big thank you letter.

Straight Pipe
08-11-2011, 07:50
The only data I'm sure about is that it's better to get out of the car first or you're going to have a hard time driving trying to see through that spider-web.

Peace Frog
08-11-2011, 10:55
Sorry, video not available

The story goes that he ended up on the emergency lane, I wound up getting stopped in the hammer lane directly across from him and Daryn was between us with his front end even with my passenger rear door. He was shooting through his passenger side windshield and I took an aimed shot through my passenger window at him maybe 15 feet away and his spine was severed. Daryn hit him four times in the arms.

Most excellent job Sir!

Morris
08-11-2011, 17:07
No, you'll see rather well. The problem is that now you have glass dust moving all around the interior. Eyes and nose get slammed pretty quick. On one string, a puff of glass dust rolled up under my eyepro and I found myself having to flush out my eyes after the string of fire was done.