Question on police creds... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Tilley
08-07-2011, 23:14
A friend of mine was recently hired as a police officer with a department that still does not allow off duty CCW as a matter of policy. They issue an employee ID of the police department, but it does not say "Police Officer" on it.

Isn't there some kind of federal law that states a police officer must carry police creds with them on duty in case a good citizen requests to see the officer's id to verify he's the real deal and not an imposter?

Sharkey
08-07-2011, 23:46
To answer your question: No.

What dept. are you referring to?

Morris
08-08-2011, 02:49
A friend of mine was recently hired as a police officer with a department that still does not allow off duty CCW as a matter of policy

That's an agency begging for a legitimate lawsuit.

Patchman
08-08-2011, 04:47
A friend of mine was recently hired as a police officer with a department... They issue an employee ID of the police department, but it does not say "Police Officer" on it.

Isn't there some kind of federal law that states a police officer must carry police creds with them on duty in case a good citizen requests to see the officer's id to verify he's the real deal and not an imposter?

In addition to each agency issuing their own employee ID, each State should also issue a LE ID to every LEO in the state, so that all the LEOs from that state have the same ID. Like a statewide DL. Everyone knows what they look like.

DustyJacket
08-08-2011, 04:51
Are you sure your friend is an officer vs. a police dept employee?

This sounds a little weird if he is a sworn officer.

Magicmanmb
08-08-2011, 06:35
South Carolina you get a department I.D. and if you are sworn officer you also receive a comission card from the state. Jailer I.D. if your a Jailer dispatch same deal.

Unless the person is waiting to go to the academy.

msu_grad_121
08-08-2011, 06:47
Here you'd just check the person's MCOLES number. It can be a pain sometimes, but if you're issued one, you're legit.

dano1427
08-08-2011, 08:06
In addition to each agency issuing their own employee ID, each State should also issue a LE ID to every LEO in the state, so that all the LEOs from that state have the same ID. Like a statewide DL. Everyone knows what they look like.

Not in Cali. Only an Agency issues I.D.

banger
08-08-2011, 08:26
This story does not make sense.

There seems to be elements that are being omitted by the O.P..

Perhaps his "friend" lied to him as to his position with the department.

edit: Perhaps the department requires Academy graduation before being allowed to carry.

txleapd
08-08-2011, 08:36
Are you sure your friend is an officer vs. a police dept employee?

This sounds a little weird if he is a sworn officer.

I have to agree with this. I have never heard of a cop getting issued an ID that didn't say he/she is a cop.

The main reason is to identify cops to other cops. Cops get badges and gear stolen, but it's kind of hard to fake a picture ID card.

Narc1911
08-08-2011, 09:44
A friend of mine was recently hired as a police officer with a department that still does not allow off duty CCW as a matter of policy. They issue an employee ID of the police department, but it does not say "Police Officer" on it.

Isn't there some kind of federal law that states a police officer must carry police creds with them on duty in case a good citizen requests to see the officer's id to verify he's the real deal and not an imposter?

Has he been to the academy? Is he sworn in yet? or commissioned?

If the answer is no, then he isn't a police officer yet. Thus he will not have an ID that says police officer until he is actually finished with the academy and sworn in. The same applies with the ability to carry off duty. Most departments won't cover you to carry off duty until he finishes.

ray9898
08-08-2011, 09:58
They issue an employee ID of the police department, but it does not say "Police Officer" on it.


Well what does it say? It has to have some sort of title on it, that is the purpose of an ID card.

vanilla_gorilla
08-08-2011, 10:23
I dunno about this one. Sounds weird, but there is a police agency very close to my home that issues ID, but their policy for off duty carry is "no badge and no gun." You have to have a concealed carry permit, and you must act as any other CCW holder.

DaBigBR
08-08-2011, 10:23
My money is on some sort of specialized law enforcement.

Agent6-3/8
08-08-2011, 10:41
I dunno about this one. Sounds weird, but there is a police agency very close to my home that issues ID, but their policy for off duty carry is "no badge and no gun." You have to have a concealed carry permit, and you must act as any other CCW holder.

Out of curosity, wouldn't state law trump their policy if push came to shove?


Here in WV and I would think most places, your authority is granted by the state. (as well as your right to carry off duty) Sure, you work for what ever department, but your powers are granted under state law and don't go away just because you're off duty. I would think that would supercede some crazy policy.

golls17
08-08-2011, 10:42
In addition to each agency issuing their own employee ID, each State should also issue a LE ID to every LEO in the state, so that all the LEOs from that state have the same ID. Like a statewide DL. Everyone knows what they look like.

Not in WI. I just have my dept. ID. It has my name, rank, photo (in uniform), badge number, department, and chief's signature with a phone number to call to verify.

vanilla_gorilla
08-08-2011, 10:49
Out of curosity, wouldn't state law trump their policy if push came to shove?






No idea, and to my knowledge, it hasn't been challenged here.

Bruce M
08-08-2011, 10:50
Out of curosity, wouldn't state law trump their policy if push came to shove?


.


Here in Florida the Statute reads "All persons holding active certifications from CJSTC as law enforcement officers.. shall have the right to carry ... at the discretion of their superior officers..." FSS 790.052


I agree a bit more information is needed regarding the original inquiry.

SCSU74
08-08-2011, 11:02
we have a dept. ID that says police officer and a state license that has our picture/name/dept etc. I find it very odd they cant carry off-duty...

GoldDot40
08-08-2011, 11:15
If my dept didn't allow off duty carry, I would be finding another department to work for. As for my ID card, it says SHERIFF very large on it with my rank and picture.

mrsurfboard
08-08-2011, 12:44
If you agency says you can't carry off duty, then you can't carry off duty. Violate the policy and you will probably be an ex-police officer very quickly.

Glocker1984
08-08-2011, 12:49
My dept ID has everything but the kitchen sink on it. Name, Agency, Agency phone number, Badge Number, Hair Color, Eye Color, Height, Weight, Sex, Chief's Signature, Photo of myself in uniform, Date of Hire, and Date of issuance.

scottydl
08-08-2011, 22:47
Not only is there no local/state/federal law that an LEO must carry ID... there are no standards whatsoever that I know of. Every department in the country can make their department ID and badge look however they want.

Department policy wouldn't necessary override state law legally, but as mentioned if you get caught breaking dept policy to that degree (carry a weapon when you're not supposed to) you'd probably get your walking papers pretty quickly.

At my dept, new probationers are (by policy) not supposed to carry off-duty until out of the FTO program. That doesn't apply to experienced officers who were hired by lateral transfer (my situation).

Tilley
08-09-2011, 00:12
This department is relatively new and seems to be circumventing standard policies because of vicarious liabilities and costs (my opinion).

I can understand their reasoning, but these policies must be from people or lawyers who were never cops. :dunno:

banger
08-09-2011, 11:03
This department is relatively new and seems to be circumventing standard policies because of vicarious liabilities and costs (my opinion).

I can understand their reasoning, but these policies must be from people or lawyers who were never cops. :dunno:


Look Tilley, In plain and simple "Cop speak"...

If you want an articulate and accurate answer simply name the department and end this "guessing game".

Edit: Be aware that some organizations that call themselves "Police" are not...

While some that don't are.

MeefZah
08-09-2011, 11:20
I agree that there should be a state issued credential, standard. I've seen some rudy-kadoody looking IDs in my time, in fact, my current agency's is embarassing and looks, to me, like a fake. If some one presented it to me, I'd be calling to verify their employment.

FiremanMike
08-09-2011, 12:59
That's an agency begging for a legitimate lawsuit.

I interviewed with such an agency local to me. This was several years ago, and I was told something to the effect of "We're aware a federal law was recently passed that allows police officers to carry off duty, but I will tell you if you get involved in an off duty shooting, we will fire you and not back you on the legal defense"

I did not go on any further in that process.

DaBigBR
08-09-2011, 15:50
I agree that there should be a state issued credential, standard. I've seen some rudy-kadoody looking IDs in my time, in fact, my current agency's is embarassing and looks, to me, like a fake. If some one presented it to me, I'd be calling to verify their employment.

Ours wear out ridiculously fast because the outfit that makes them does not laminate them. You try to laminate them with a laminating machine and that doesn't work because of how thick the card is. The only easy way to do it is to wrap a piece of packing tape around it, which makes it look even sketchier.

alabaster
08-09-2011, 15:59
Ours wear out ridiculously fast because the outfit that makes them does not laminate them. You try to laminate them with a laminating machine and that doesn't work because of how thick the card is. The only easy way to do it is to wrap a piece of packing tape around it, which makes it look even sketchier.

You know, I think I've seen something @ Office Depot or the like that was a laminating product for just that. It's 2 pieces, adhesive on 1 side of each. The idea, obviously is to place one stick side up, the id on it, then the other sticky side down, then just cut it to fit. Same idea as your packing tape, prolly just easier to use, and looks a little more "4real".

A6Gator
08-09-2011, 16:02
If you agency says you can't carry off duty, then you can't carry off duty. Violate the policy and you will probably be an ex-police officer very quickly.

I wonder if the department would get their collective panties in a twist if he carried on a CCW... Just being a good citizen off-duty...just sayin'

glockurai
08-09-2011, 16:03
If you agency says you can't carry off duty, then you can't carry off duty. Violate the policy and you will probably be an ex-police officer very quickly.

Here in FL you can still carry as a private citizen. The department cannot forbid you from carrying if you have a license. The catch is that they are not liable for any actions that you may take while carrying as a private citizen.

alabaster
08-09-2011, 16:08
They shouldn't be liable for what you do out of uniform. I think they shouldn't be liable for most of what you do IN uniform. People lack responsibility these days. If you act like a tool, you're gonna be that same jackhole in uniform or street clothes.

If you can carry as a citizen you should be able to as an off-duty cop. If not, I wouldn't want to be part of that department. Something sounds fishy about that. Like not being able to carry in gunshops or gun shows, even if you have a permit. WTF is that about?

DaBigBR
08-09-2011, 17:03
They shouldn't be liable for what you do out of uniform. I think they shouldn't be liable for most of what you do IN uniform. People lack responsibility these days. If you act like a tool, you're gonna be that same jackhole in uniform or street clothes.

Well, they are. Beyond that, qualified immunity attaches to constitutional violations unless the officer failed to follow "clearly established law", making the officer not personally liable.

Hack
08-09-2011, 17:05
Here in FL you can still carry as a private citizen. The department cannot forbid you from carrying if you have a license. The catch is that they are not liable for any actions that you may take while carrying as a private citizen.

I have a CCH permit. I also can carry as per LEOSA. The catch is concerning carrying under LEOSA. Because of there only being a little bit of case law concerning LEOSA, my agency is rather a "handsoff" agency concerning carrying off duty, but acknowledges that we can carry off duty on our credentials as long as we realize we are not carrying off duty in any type of official status; except to have the authorisation to carry, within the current parameters as per LEOSA.

Even if we got someone in who said specifically, "You are no longer authorised to carry on active credentials.", I do have the CCH permit. But, since the authorisation has been put out there I don't see them withdrawing said authorisation as they have enough on their collective plates to deal with. That, and I think they would wind up shooting themselves in the feet doing so, as it would make it harder for them to get people to work in certain areas of the country under states that have stringent prohibitions concerning concealed carry, or are may issue states.

Cochese
08-09-2011, 17:41
I have a CCH permit. I also can carry as per LEOSA. The catch is concerning carrying under LEOSA. Because of there only being a little bit of case law concerning LEOSA, my agency is rather a "handsoff" agency concerning carrying off duty, but acknowledges that we can carry off duty on our credentials as long as we realize we are not carrying off duty in any type of official status; except to have the authorisation to carry, within the current parameters as per LEOSA.

Even if we got someone in who said specifically, "You are no longer authorised to carry on active credentials.", I do have the CCH permit. But, since the authorisation has been put out there I don't see them withdrawing said authorisation as they have enough on their collective plates to deal with. That, and I think they would wind up shooting themselves in the feet doing so, as it would make it harder for them to get people to work in certain areas of the country under states that have stringent prohibitions concerning concealed carry, or are may issue states.

BOP really needs to get their act together concerning this.

From chapter 7 of your CSPM:

705. IDENTIFICATION BADGES. Upon request, the Correctional Services Administrator, Central Office, will issue Bureau identification badges in leather carrying cases to each institution.

The Captain will maintain strict accountability of Bureau badges. Lost or stolen badges must be reported immediately in writing to the Correctional Services Branch, Central Office.

Except for tower and perimeter patrols and established stationary check points, staff assigned to duties which require the carrying of firearms will be issued a Bureau identification badge.

The badge must be displayed when necessary to establish the staff member's authorization to carry a firearm. Appropriate badge holders will be provided so as to allow the employee the ability to securely attach the badge to his or her outerwear.

Badges may not be used as methods of routine identification.

Employee procurement or possession of unauthorized badges, either official or duplicated, is prohibited (see the Program Statement on Standards of Employee Conduct).


WTH is wrong with them???

They should at least provide you guys with a mini badge on the case of your creds or something.

If I respond to a scene with a MWAG, I'm looking for a badge, not some guy holding what looks like a mini-daily devotional book or bible!

Hack
08-09-2011, 18:10
BOP really needs to get their act together concerning this.

From chapter 7 of your CSPM:



WTH is wrong with them???

They should at least provide you guys with a mini badge on the case of your creds or something.

If I respond to a scene with a MWAG, I'm looking for a badge, not some guy holding what looks like a mini-daily devotional book or bible!

Actually there is a company that has been helping out a little. A.D Meyers is one of our uniform distributors. They have wallets, and such like with faux badges/emblems in them, (not the actual badge). It is not made out of medal at all, but some type of durable plastic. For some reason they are considered acceptable as novelty items, and a help in identification in that they can only be ordered by BOP personnel, (not including contract employees).

http://bopmeyers.com/catalog/46

http://www.bopmeyers.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/125-a_emblem.jpg

The one shown is the one I carry, but it is a pain to sit on when it is in my uniform pants pocket.

Hack
08-09-2011, 18:19
BOP really needs to get their act together concerning this.

From chapter 7 of your CSPM:



WTH is wrong with them???

They should at least provide you guys with a mini badge on the case of your creds or something.

If I respond to a scene with a MWAG, I'm looking for a badge, not some guy holding what looks like a mini-daily devotional book or bible!

I agree, but the powers that be are not always LE oriented. It's one of those things that people in my position put up with. Then there are some lunk heads who think they want to use them for other than their intended use off duty. I heard from some of the older ones that it used to be that we had one for ID purposes, and now it seems that with the advent of LEOSA and such that there are some compromises being made. Emblems that look like badges are authorised, but not the actual badges.

Glockwork Orange
08-09-2011, 18:37
officer with a department that still does not allow off duty CCW as a matter of policy...





WHAT? I find that hard to believe...are you sure thats not a probationary policy with his Dept? Every Dept I've worked ENCOURAGED off duty carry...how are you supposed to defend yourself if you run into a perp you locked up last week while in line at WalMart?...for the record, credentials is up to the Dept or Officer...when I was on NYPD if you carried off duty you had to have badge and ID on you...now I'm in the liberal South and it's up to me whether I carry badge and ID when carrying (BTW, I only carry my ID to get out of traffic stops...too many Gremlins robbing stores and banks....cops have gotten killed when they find a badge on you)...

Cochese
08-09-2011, 18:52
A step in the right direction Hack.

Tilley
08-09-2011, 22:36
Because of there only being a little bit of case law concerning LEOSA, my agency is rather a "handsoff" agency concerning carrying off duty, but acknowledges that we can carry off duty on our credentials as long as we realize we are not carrying off duty in any type of official status; except to have the authorisation to carry, within the current parameters as per LEOSA.

I believe this is the case as well. Kinda like being gay in the military..."don't ask, don't tell." He can carry per LEOSA, but not per policy. If you do something other than being a good witness, you are on your own.

I looked under HR218, and regarding the employee ID, it doesn't have to say "Police Officer" on it, just a photographic ID from his employer where he is employed as a full time LEO.

DaBigBR
08-09-2011, 23:17
I looked under HR218, and regarding the employee ID, it doesn't have to say "Police Officer" on it, just a photographic ID from his employer where he is employed as a full time LEO.

The words "full time" do not appear anywhere in HR218.

Hack
08-10-2011, 05:12
The words "full time" do not appear anywhere in HR218.

Indeed. It could be a once a week reserve with full commissioning, and have the authorisation to carry off duty.

SCSU74
08-10-2011, 11:29
Here in FL you can still carry as a private citizen. The department cannot forbid you from carrying if you have a license. The catch is that they are not liable for any actions that you may take while carrying as a private citizen.

Another reason i'm glad i live/work in Tx. As a Tx LEO we are viewed as an officer 24/7, doesn't matter what clothes we are wearing. If we get into a shooting "off-duty" we have the full support of the department and our CLEAT (combined law enforcement association of Texas) lawyers. Our department encourages us carrying, i would hate to work for a dept that does otherwise.

TheGreatGonzo
08-10-2011, 12:04
This department is relatively new and seems to be circumventing standard policies because of vicarious liabilities and costs (my opinion).

I can understand their reasoning, but these policies must be from people or lawyers who were never cops. :dunno:


While I understand your hesitance to give the actual name of the specific agency, a little more info would be helpful, without being overly specific. For instance: Is it a city, county, or state agency, etc?

I suspect that this involves a "specialty" or "boutique" law enforcement agency. "Campus Police", "Company Police", "Private Police", "Hospital Police", or something along those lines. I would further guess (and this is just a guess) that this agency's jurisdiction is very strictly limited to specific property or very specific violations of the law.

Gonzo

Rabbi
08-10-2011, 12:32
Another reason i'm glad i live/work in Tx. As a Tx LEO we are viewed as an officer 24/7, doesn't matter what clothes we are wearing. If we get into a shooting "off-duty" we have the full support of the department and our CLEAT (combined law enforcement association of Texas) lawyers. Our department encourages us carrying, i would hate to work for a dept that does otherwise.

..If you have CLEAT. (I have TMPA) but yeah...G-d bless Texas!

I generally wish all States would have a State issued card instead of every agency for themselves.

CJStudent
08-10-2011, 20:16
Actually there is a company that has been helping out a little. A.D Meyers is one of our uniform distributors. They have wallets, and such like with faux badges/emblems in them, (not the actual badge). It is not made out of medal at all, but some type of durable plastic. For some reason they are considered acceptable as novelty items, and a help in identification in that they can only be ordered by BOP personnel, (not including contract employees).

http://bopmeyers.com/catalog/46

http://www.bopmeyers.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/125-a_emblem.jpg

The one shown is the one I carry, but it is a pain to sit on when it is in my uniform pants pocket.

That's pretty much what I do, though mine is for the 5-year ID (we aren't issued the 2-piece creds until we have 5 years on).

Hack
08-10-2011, 21:09
That's pretty much what I do, though mine is for the 5-year ID (we aren't issued the 2-piece creds until we have 5 years on).

That's usual for us folks. The other wallets that is for the one card are also a good buy. I have one with just the regular seal on it, which I purchased from Sally's Cop Shop, down by Glynco. But, since there are those with the badge emblem presently I prefer those for off duty. Not that it officially adds any official weight really, but some other folk, to include some of our LE brethren like to see those.

Heck, I will probably even get a couple for retirement later, as long as they are still being made.

I don't really care much for the clip badge emblem to wear on the belt, but I have heard up in NYC that they seem to help smooth over things concerning LEOSA issues for some very odd reason with some of the LE.:dunno:

CJStudent
08-11-2011, 19:18
That's usual for us folks. The other wallets that is for the one card are also a good buy. I have one with just the regular seal on it, which I purchased from Sally's Cop Shop, down by Glynco. But, since there are those with the badge emblem presently I prefer those for off duty. Not that it officially adds any official weight really, but some other folk, to include some of our LE brethren like to see those.

Heck, I will probably even get a couple for retirement later, as long as they are still being made.

I don't really care much for the clip badge emblem to wear on the belt, but I have heard up in NYC that they seem to help smooth over things concerning LEOSA issues for some very odd reason with some of the LE.:dunno:

I was wondering why the crap they sold those. LEOSA is pretty much the reason I bought mine with the badge-type emblem; it's MUCH more recognizable to local LE than the ID that keeps the typewriter companies in business.

ETA: I use this one, which keeps the emblem/ID area a bit more concealed than it looks:

http://www.bopmeyers.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/image-7.jpg