Will events in England influence behavior here in the US? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RussP
08-09-2011, 08:14
Been thinking about this. My vote is yes, it maywill embolden the current crop of instigators and escalate the level of behavior.

Am I wrong?

FearTheBoomAndBust
08-09-2011, 09:20
Am I wrong?

No, your most likely right unfortunately.

LE has to be proactive to prevent it from getting to the stages it has reached in England

Napalm561
08-09-2011, 10:00
With the recent "flash mob" violence that has happened in places like Wisconsin, I don't see any deterent from UK style rioting getting started in the US. I havent heard of any reprocussions for any of the Wisc. perpetrators, but then again, I don't watch much TV news.

razdog76
08-09-2011, 10:28
This has happened here, Canada several times, think Rodney King http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5ogOH82Aw.

The biggest issues are that possible consequences will not outweigh the benefits of the group mayhem, and society cannot/will not pay for managing the crisis logistically in a timely fashion, or to quell it in the beginning.

What is the worst that will happen, get arrested, spend the weekend in jail? After 6 months to a year when/if it goes to trial the result will be probation. The court appointed attorney doesn't cost a whole lot either, and why pay fine and court costs... at least here the court will suspend the already suspended driver license, and make a negative entry on their poor credit history.

In the end, the new TV is in the living room, and insurance companies and society will foot the cost.:steamed:

RussP
08-09-2011, 10:47
Philly Announces Youth Curfew to Combat Violent 'Flash Mobs'

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/09/philly-announces-youth-curfew-to-combat-violent-flash-mobs/#ixzz1UYDGXxCW

So, a kid violates curfew, what happens? Are parents held responsible? Put them in jail (if they aren't already) and see if that has any effect.

HexHead
08-09-2011, 10:50
With the recent "flash mob" violence that has happened in places like Wisconsin, I don't see any deterent from UK style rioting getting started in the US. I havent heard of any reprocussions for any of the Wisc. perpetrators, but then again, I don't watch much TV news.

There would likely have been instant repercussions if that had not occurred in a gun free zone.

MeefZah
08-09-2011, 11:23
Actually, I think the *********gery that runs rampant over here influences other countries.

Plus, our little troublemakers are too ****ing stupid to switch to CNN, FOX, or read a newspaper. They're too busy banging hos, using bath slats, and collecting my tax dollars to fund their next purchase of 26" rims.

Sharkey
08-09-2011, 11:53
Actually, I think the *********gery that runs rampant over here influences other countries.

Plus, our little troublemakers are too ****ing stupid to switch to CNN, FOX, or read a newspaper. They're too busy banging hos, using bath slats, and collecting my tax dollars to fund their next purchase of 26" rims.


DING DING DING, we have a winner.

"*********gery" I love it. I'm gonna use it.

Morris
08-09-2011, 12:29
Some differences. For one, we have people who will use appropriate measures (including firearms) to defend themselves and their businesses. Two, different methodology and response to rioters (not water cannons but lots of deterrant/tear/OC agents used).

Then again, we have people who will riote when their favorite thug club, err, sports team, wins a championship.

fastbolt
08-09-2011, 12:45
Well, I remember the rioting here in the late 60's.

Patchman
08-09-2011, 12:45
Definitely LE and civic leaders in this country would be remiss if they didn't at least have contingency plans in place.

I still remember photos of the L.A. riots with the Korean store owners on rooftops protecting their stores.

Dukeboy01
08-09-2011, 12:48
I hate to be a MMQB, but the English police were way too passive in their response and now stuff is just out of control. Saw a report to day that their Lord High Superintendant of Her Majesty's Royal Police Forces or whatever they call the top cop over there was still refusing to deploy water cannons against the rioters. That's just silly, but the British of today are a mush- brained, lilly- livered, spineless people compared to their ancestors who created an Empire upon which the sun never set.

It's one thing to have hit and run attacks in which the mob is gone before the police arrives, as we've seen over here this Summer, as opposed to ongoing groups of rioters staying put in the street and waiting to confront the police. The actions of the English police that I've seen videos of in response to that type of confrontation are weak. I'd like to think that law enforcement in the US is much better prepared to respond with force in a similar situation.

Patchman
08-09-2011, 12:49
Well, I remember the rioting here in the late 60's.

So which did you enjoy more from the 1960s? The riots or the free love movement? California in the '60s... jeez. :whistling:

Patchman
08-09-2011, 12:51
And the top London cop recently resigned over the NOTW phone tapping scandel. So the Force was probably leaderless, which certainly didn't help.

bccop
08-09-2011, 13:09
I hate to be a MMQB, but the English police were way too passive in their response and now stuff is just out of control. Saw a report to day that their Lord High Superintendant of Her Majesty's Royal Police Forces or whatever they call the top cop over there was still refusing to deploy water cannons against the rioters. That's just silly, but the British of today are a mush- brained, lilly- livered, spineless people compared to their ancestors who created an Empire upon which the sun never set.

It's one thing to have hit and run attacks in which the mob is gone before the police arrives, as we've seen over here this Summer, as opposed to ongoing groups of rioters staying put in the street and waiting to confront the police. The actions of the English police that I've seen videos of in response to that type of confrontation are weak. I'd like to think that law enforcement in the US is much better prepared to respond with force in a similar situation.



They will not use gas. They also have no firearms to support their riot troops. They need permission from upper managagement to use less lethal (ARWEN) which is ridiculous because by the time they get permission the situation requiring it is over. As a result their police getting treated like punching bags and the rioters can throw stuff at them (molotovs, fences, rocks, etc) with nothing happening to them.

During our riot one of our tac support guys went through two entire vest load outs of munitions (40 rounds of 40mm)

razdog76
08-09-2011, 13:11
I wonder if they have considered importing some Israeli Police to help.:whistling:

fastbolt
08-09-2011, 13:16
So which did you enjoy more from the 1960s? The riots or the free love movement? California in the '60s... jeez. :whistling:

Me? Aside from LA, the riots were worse further East.

I liked the attention the muscle cars received on the West Coast, like Ford and even Buick making "California Special" versions of a couple of their popular cars. I was in HS at that time, so the beaches, cars and pretty much everything else made the West Coast a fun place to live and get summer work back then.

It was a far different place than nowadays.

RogueUK
08-09-2011, 13:20
I hate to be a MMQB, but the English police were way too passive in their response and now stuff is just out of control. Saw a report to day that their Lord High Superintendant of Her Majesty's Royal Police Forces or whatever they call the top cop over there was still refusing to deploy water cannons against the rioters. That's just silly, but the British of today are a mush- brained, lilly- livered, spineless people compared to their ancestors who created an Empire upon which the sun never set.

It's hardly a new thing - the people on the front line are fearless but the people giving the orders refuse to give the orders necessary. The top policeman has effectively said "get a grip, lads, it's hardly a proper rebellion now, is it?" and is leaving them too it. The Prime Minister has told them to use "robust policing" but nobody will clarify what "robust" means. The policeman who tries to use his initiative and be "robust" without signed and sworn and sealed Rules of Engagement WILL end up jobless and with a criminal record to appease the masses. It's traditional.

Since the Crimean war, people have described the British as "lions led by donkeys". You're seeing it in action as we speak :steamed:

mrsurfboard
08-09-2011, 13:41
If Obama is re-elected, count on it. The man is a complete buffoon and will lead this country to disaster. The experiment failed, we all got a good laugh, now lets elect a real leader.

MeefZah
08-09-2011, 15:34
DING DING DING, we have a winner.

"*********gery" I love it. I'm gonna use it.

Just give me credit. :cool:

RogueUK
08-09-2011, 16:59
Great, they've just firebombed the local police station. If they'd set fire to any other part of the city they might have actually increased the value of the place...

Hack
08-09-2011, 17:16
We don't have any in house to be concerned with as to serious rioters. But, we do have plans in place and means to deal with it. Lock it down and rock and roll is something we still know how to do, in case of certain outside and and inside influences. So far it seems to be calm around here.

Rabbi
08-09-2011, 21:45
If Obama is re-elected, count on it. The man is a complete buffoon and will lead this country to disaster. The experiment failed, we all got a good laugh, now lets elect a real leader.

...if Obama is NOT re-elected you can probably count on it as well.

If you think about that one for a minute...that could be real bad starting that night.

ronduke
08-10-2011, 02:44
"The most frightening side-effect of the new ‘softly, softly’ policing approach is that the control of such estates has been surrendered to lawless gangs led by the likes of Mark Duggan, whose shooting by police sparked the peaceful demonstration which escalated into mob violence.

Reliable locals attest that, despite the Guardian’s doting portrait of him as a respectable pillar of the community, Duggan was involved in drug dealing and gun crime.

Impressionable ‘youths’ looked up to him as an ‘elder’. Only on our inner city estates can a 29-year-old gangster be considered an ‘elder’, a term usually associated with a wise old man.

The police have questions to answer, not just in relation to the death of Mark Duggan but also why they stood aside and allowed the wholesale looting in Wood Green and at the Tottenham retail park."

Another recent headline:
'We don't do water cannon, we rely on consent': May rules out tough action as vigilantes are forced to defend shops

Theresa May: 'We need robust policing but we also need to ensure that justice is done through the courts'

Senior officers complain Met police 'rudderless' since Sir Paul Stephenson left

(Theresa May is the British Home Secretary. Estates are what the brits call the projects.)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023932/London-riots-2011-Theresa-May-rules-tough-action-vigilantes-defend-shops.html#ixzz1Uc5v53Qs



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023898/London-riots-Red-sky-night-Tottenhams-alight.html#ixzz1Uc5TwJGQ

efman
08-10-2011, 05:23
I may be wrong but I feel like the 2nd amendment will help deter this. My part of the country people (vigilanties) would take it into there own hands like they have in england, except over here they would be armed.

Bruce M
08-10-2011, 05:44
.... They also have no firearms to support their riot troops... )


Can anyone confirm or refute that? I thought Smith and Wesson had a contract a few years back to supply a couple thousand pistols to one of the agencies in Great Britain.


My gut instinct is that we are a decade or two ahead of England as far as civil disturbances, and that some of our future disturbances will involve more violence and looting outside of the traditionally poor urban neighborhoods.

buddah
08-10-2011, 05:47
I heard on the news last night that sales of U.S Made baseball bats, especially aluminum ones have tripled in England since the riots started. The citizens are buying them up for protection since guns are virtually illegal in UK. Some brit was interviewed saying "Look at this madness where are the police to protect us". Thank god we have the second amendment in this country, think LA riots when korean store owners patrolled the roof of there stores with AK rifles:cool:

Rabbi
08-10-2011, 09:15
Can anyone tell the story of the shooting that started all of this? A link? I am curious about that.

Hack
08-10-2011, 09:22
...if Obama is NOT re-elected you can probably count on it as well.

If you think about that one for a minute...that could be real bad starting that night.

Lock and load and scan my sector in which case.

I keep thinking if it is not a man of colour or a woman, (shame that we have devolved into that), it is going to be interesting times.

Hack
08-10-2011, 09:28
Can anyone tell the story of the shooting that started all of this? A link? I am curious about that.

Right now, this is what I have found directly off the MET site:

http://content.met.police.uk/News/Disorder-updates-and-advice/1260269372559/1257246741786

Bottom of page as to the URL.

Sunday 7 August

Last night’s disorder and violence in Tottenham is completely unacceptable. The behaviour by a criminal minority put police officers, fire brigade personnel and the public at significant risk.

The death of Mr. Duggan is extremely regrettable and will be the subject of an independent investigation by the IPCC. It is absolutely tragic that someone has died, but that does not give a criminal minority the right to destroy businesses and people livelihoods and steal from their local community.

There was no indication that the protest would deteriorate into the levels of criminal and violent disorder that we saw. We believe that certain elements, who were not involved with the vigil, took the opportunity to commit disorder and physically attack police officers, verbally abuse fire brigade personnel and destroy vehicles and buildings. We do not believe that this is something that the vast majority of law abiding citizens in Tottenham would condone or would want.

As the disorder developed, we immediately deployed, but such was the level of violence against police officers that we were also supported by officers from surrounding forces, as is in line with our planned contingency as would be expected for such a significant incident.

Our officers were subjected to bottles, petrol bombs and other missiles being thrown at them.

Our priority will always be to try to preserve life, with the numbers of people on the street and violence being directed at the police and fire service this had to remain our priority. We are aware that a number of shops were looted and this is very regrettable. We are very aware of how disruptive and costly this will be for large and small businesses and the negative impact on the local community.

We have recovered excellent CCTV and those who committed disorder and criminal acts will be identified and held account for their actions. We would appeal to anyone who has information about those who may have been involved in the disorder to contact police.

As a result of last night's disorder 26 police officers were injured, two remain in hospital. There have been 42 arrests so far for offences including violent disorder, burglary and theft.

cowboywannabe
08-10-2011, 10:03
in parts of this once great country were descent folks can still walk about armed, there will be minimal if any of this english fiasco, not because of the police, but because the armed citizen doesnt have to play by the same rules.


of course, in liberal run areas, criminals will have their way with ease most of the time, in spite of the police. criminals to police ratio is easily 20:1.

bccop
08-10-2011, 10:36
Can anyone confirm or refute that? I thought Smith and Wesson had a contract a few years back to supply a couple thousand pistols to one of the agencies in Great Britain.


My gut instinct is that we are a decade or two ahead of England as far as civil disturbances, and that some of our future disturbances will involve more violence and looting outside of the traditionally poor urban neighborhoods.

There are armed police in England. The only firearms I am aware of them being issued are Glock 17's and MP-5's.

However, in riot gear they are not armed. This has been confirmed by British police officers that have come overseas to work for us and by British police instructors we have had come over here to train us in riot control. A former partner of mine was in an Armed Response Unit and told me what they carried. I was also suprised to hear they were issued 105 gr 9mm which I thought was bit light. The home office decided that was the ammunition they would use.


When it comes to civil disturbances they have had a lot of practice (soccer riots, labour unrest, etc).

We're slightly different however in our organization however and their instructors envy us that we can have lethal/less lethal/chemicial munitions more readily available and are more willing to use them.

A squad consists of 7 constables and a sergeant.

A section consists of 3 squads led by a staff sergeant.

All of the above do not carry firearms.

Each section is supported by a squad of tactical support members (5 constables and a sergeant. They all carry pistols (half carry 40 mm launchers and the other half carry C-8's).

Each section is also supported by 3 paramedics wearing our gear as well.

RogueUK
08-10-2011, 11:56
Can anyone tell the story of the shooting that started all of this? A link? I am curious about that.

The story is still in flux.

What is known is that Mark Duggen was a 29 year old drug dealer who was known to police and was also known to be violent and habitually armed.

He was arrested as part of an operation involving "Operation Trident", a team specialising in dealing with drugs and firearms-related crime amongst the black community in London.

His car was stopped by officers. This is where the story becomes unclear...

Initially, it was reported that Duggen shot at officers, hitting one in the chest. Officers shot back and killed him. This was quickly identified as "police brutality and oppression" by the locals. Depending on what reports you read, officers stopped and searched a youth shortly after this which caused a spark in the already volatile environment.

The original disturbance, however, was very quickly overtaken by groups who realised it was the perfect opportunity to smash a few windows and grab some free stuff. This is what has been replicated up and down the country to various degrees. It's generally considered that gangs in the major towns are using the opportunity for some carefully orchestrated robbery.

Fairly quickly it was reported by the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission, the offical body with responsibility for blaming the police for everything) that the officer who was shot... was shot using police-issue ammunition.

It has since been reported that Duggen, while armed, did not shoot at all. As far as the mobs are concerned, this is as good as being an unarmed and innocent church-goer who would have been turning his life around if he wasn't already an innocent little angel.

Rabbi
08-10-2011, 12:03
The story is still in flux.

What is known is that Mark Duggen was a 29 year old drug dealer who was known to police and was also known to be violent and habitually armed.

He was arrested as part of an operation involving "Operation Trident", a team specialising in dealing with drugs and firearms-related crime amongst the black community in London.

His car was stopped by officers. This is where the story becomes unclear...

Initially, it was reported that Duggen shot at officers, hitting one in the chest. Officers shot back and killed him. This was quickly identified as "police brutality and oppression" by the locals. Depending on what reports you read, officers stopped and searched a youth shortly after this which caused a spark in the already volatile environment.

The original disturbance, however, was very quickly overtaken by groups who realised it was the perfect opportunity to smash a few windows and grab some free stuff. This is what has been replicated up and down the country to various degrees. It's generally considered that gangs in the major towns are using the opportunity for some carefully orchestrated robbery.

Fairly quickly it was reported by the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission, the offical body with responsibility for blaming the police for everything) that the officer who was shot... was shot using police-issue ammunition.

It has since been reported that Duggen, while armed, did not shoot at all. As far as the mobs are concerned, this is as good as being an unarmed and innocent church-goer who would have been turning his life around if he wasn't already an innocent little angel.

Thankyou. It seems like you are current. If you get anything new, let us know.

CodyBoy
08-10-2011, 12:35
...if Obama is NOT re-elected you can probably count on it as well.

If you think about that one for a minute...that could be real bad starting that night.


I ain't no hero but if thats what it takes to get him outta there then bring it on!

CodyBoy
08-10-2011, 12:39
I too think if this country continues like it is there will be scenes like we are seeing in England here.

All I have to say about the police over there in England is that they are very dedicated to their job or just plain stupid.

I would just have to walk away from it and quit if I weren't issued or did not have permission to use the correct tools for the job.

razdog76
08-10-2011, 12:46
I may be wrong but I feel like the 2nd amendment will help deter this. My part of the country people (vigilanties) would take it into there own hands like they have in england, except over here they would be armed.

The problem with vigilantism is that often enough the "facts" are screwed up, and they do "justice" to the wrong person. Stopping an immediate threat of serious physical harm is a little different; however, I believe that in England one does not have the right to defend oneself.

If I am wrong, I am sure that someone with first hand knowledge will pipe up.

Morris
08-10-2011, 13:47
I thought Smith and Wesson had a contract a few years back to supply a couple thousand pistols to one of the agencies in Great Britain.

That was Australia.

RogueUK
08-10-2011, 16:30
The problem with vigilantism is that often enough the "facts" are screwed up, and they do "justice" to the wrong person. Stopping an immediate threat of serious physical harm is a little different; however, I believe that in England one does not have the right to defend oneself.

If I am wrong, I am sure that someone with first hand knowledge will pipe up.

The law on self defence is probably quite similar to most countries, but the interpretation is narrower.

You can use reasonable, proportionate force to defend yourself from violence. You are not expected to make a calculated decision in the heat of the moment, but there are obvious limits. If lethal force is reasonable and proportionate to the threat then use it. Preemptive force is also acceptable. If firearms are reasonable and proportionate in the situation then you can use them (assuming you can possess them) and there have been a few cases recently where this has happened.

The majority of stories you hear about are where someone "crosses the line" - there is no longer a genuine threat. The attacker is running away and is shot in the back, or has already been knocked unconsious and the "victim" starts to put the boot in. The victim is now the attacker. The newspapers never like to point this distinction out though.

The issue with weapons and self defence is a bit more complicated but it basically suggests a premeditated attack rather than defence.